Hollie Laycayo, Fashion Stylist & Chair of BECTU'S Fashion UK

0:02Welcome to the Business of Modeling, the podcast where we explore the fascinating world of the modeling industry. I'm Tessa Dewing, Managing Director of Sandra Reynolds, a commercial model agency celebrating its 50th year of business. My guest today is Holly Lakeo, a London-based fashion stylist and writer who has built an impressive career working with brands such as Hackett, All Saints, M &S and Jaeger, as well as having editorial features for Vogue, GQ and 1883 magazine. Alongside her creative success, Holly is now chair of Beck 2's Fashion UK, the UK's first trade union division created specifically for stylists, makeup and hair artists, nail teams, photographers, PRs and other behind the scenes creatives.

0:55She's helping to tackle longstanding problems in the industry, including unpaid work, unsafe conditions, lack of contracts and the absence of protections for young, pregnant and freelance workers. Holly, thank you for joining me. Tell us a little bit about your background, where you grew up and what first drew you to fashion. I only realised when I got to university that it wasn't the usual route for everybody else. Everybody else there, it was kind of about Vogue and about the magazines, whereas I had gone to boarding school. So for me, that idea of putting outfits together um I've been doing that since I was young with we could only take a certain amount of play clothes with us so kind of matching those outfits and making sure that everything worked together and you had stuff that was gonna last you for the term that's so interesting yeah I've been doing it for such a so you only had yeah you obviously only had a certain amount of resources once you were there in the term you've literally got your case full of whatever you've taken and trying to make that work and and trunk it was a big trunk one of those really old yeah and I remember laying everything out and kind of thinking about what I'd want to get over the summer and how to put those outfits together and is anyone in your family um from a kind of fashion background so you were the first one that went into that industry the complete opposite um quite a lot of publicans in my family so quite a pub background yeah so yeah yeah completely different did you used to sort of you know make things and draw and pull you know clothes together just just all the time you were just trying to make different outfits and yes and whilst at school any kind of arts and crafts project I tried to turn it to fashion yeah so I remember making some wooden wedges in a leopard print and sewing classes and stuff like that I always wanted to be in fashion right right so you were at boarding school up until 15 okay and then and then where did you go from there what was your choice so when I left boarding school I went through a bit of a rebellious stage started off at college and then stopped but knew that I wanted to get to university to study fashion so after leaving college I then did some courses I did um like photoshop courses but these kind of workshops and courses in between before going back to sixth form I went back to sixth form a year later to get to university okay where did you go went to Rochester right um sadly it's no longer there anymore but the university of creative arts um they have different campuses over Surrey and Kent and I studied fashion promotion.

3:52With that it was styling, journalism, PR, show production. When you got there did you just really feel like you found your tribe and you'd found your calling? Yes it was so different to where I grew up and to be in such a creative space I will say I found the university course creative whereas originally I had wanted to go into journalism so I found myself kind of falling more into the styling element of it because I wanted to do journalism and styling together but I was lucky to pick that up kind of later down the line so it was interesting being in an environment where it's not about academia and it's kind of based more on people's perceptions of things right which I think is really interesting from like a creative university concept because it's really whether somebody likes something or not that you're judging it on and everybody's tastes are completely different yeah there's no right and wrong yeah yeah where did you go from university did you go straight in what was your first job my I did an internship at the Telegraph yeah um so I started that was when you decided you were going to try and go down the journalism path or not or was that in the fashion department I started in the fashion department um so when you're at university one of the really good things is um you do work experience so with that we were traveling into London we were kind of getting our experience from there then went into the telegraph and did I was in the fashion cupboard and then applied for the and then applied for the internship and then from there I went and did I was fashion assistant at a couple of different magazines and then went freelance that makes me laugh that gives me a vision when you say the fashion cupboard I can imagine like someone opening the door and just throwing something in and you're stood in there covered yeah I was really lucky um because when I did certainly a couple of experiences I had I turned up and I was like I'll do whatever you want I'll work all the hours in the day I'll work weekends I'll work evenings and really early on I had a couple of people turn and tell me like don't do that like you need to look after yourself and this is a job be it a job a career like this is still there is still you and and then there there is still work so it was really good to have that helpful advice who gave you that advice do you remember um I remember one of the key people was um Francis Bentley when I was at Vogue originally I did a three-week internship there and I think again that was really really good because you could only do three weeks and after that you had to come back if you came back you were a paid employee yeah um albeit I still get a bit kind of confused because I've been a freelancer for so long about the technical you'd be signed up and be on the HR but you weren't obviously a full-time employee no and it was her who I was like I will do anything to do and she was like no like you will get burnt out if you do that that's not the way to do it and whenever I did go back so I went back and freelance uh again not the right expression but I went back to Vogue kind of several times yeah and every time she I'd see her when I'd arrived she'd go through like how have I been getting on what have I been doing and then as I'd leave she'd be like what are you what are you doing next she took me into the office so she was really fantastic when did you first realize that that fashion could be a career rather than just an interest I think as I've gone along particularly kind of getting more of an interest in advocating for other people and making sure because we definitely touched on the expectations that are implied when you step into the industry and with that I think you have to come to a point where you make a choice of not repeating some of the things you've seen in different areas that have come before and trying to leave the industry a better place than you found it.

8:20I think with that, there's a lot of people who don't see styling as a career or modelling or being a makeup artist or a hairstylist. They see it as a hobby, particularly as it's quite a female dominated industry. So I still hear things where it's belittled. COVID had a lot to do with it of being able to step back and reflect and take a beat and see it as more of a career and as something to build upon.

9:03when i came out of university i assisted lots of different stylists and two main ones i was at a magazine called another magazine which is a biannual and i worked with the fashion director there, Kathy Edwards. She was incredible and really inspirational. And then I worked with a contributing editor at Vogue, Bay Garnet. Again, brilliant. So both of those women, hugely inspirational to me and kind of meant a lot. How did you first get in front of your big clients like Hackett, M &S, Jaeger? Was it sort of persistence or is it something that just happened as your career grew? So definitely persistence, being introduced to people, being on sets, being around, being easy to work with so that people are going to put you forward and bring you on to the next job.

10:00Having a mind of who you want to work with and where you want to get to in this industry. You need to understand there's so many different elements to it that you need to pull in, especially as from when I started. I remember before Instagram, before you would have your own website, before you would be putting yourself forward more. To me, I find that there's more and more that's added. And being an accountant, you need to do admin. You need to manage the back end of a website. You need to do social media. You need to handle clients and negotiating. And there's so much more to it than people think there is.

10:40What sort of advice would you give young stylists about navigating through the start of their career? Building those relationships, working across different modalities. So I was always lucky enough to work across editorial, music videos, red carpet. E-commerce wasn't a thing back then. um but having that experience across everything whilst I was assisting meant that I could then walk into any room with confidence when I later transitioned into being a stylist and sadly um Kathy's not with us um but in terms of other stylists who I've worked with I still have relationships with them I still see them so I still value those that kind of mentorship still today and it's something I hope to pass on with people who work with me I think I've just realized now that I do what Fran did so if when we've wrapped on a job I'll be like you've got any questions for me is there anything you want to know is there anything I can help with just to try and pay it back and I think the general public you know if they're if they're watching a commercial or something they just assume that it's the actor's own clothes so I think people don't really understand what goes into that so tell us what would go into getting wardrobe ready it's quite a lot of managing lots of different elements and people because everyone's got a view be it the director be it the client so you'll work with a mood board you'll get all the ideas together for the characters that are going to be on screen or in print and then you'll put that forward there might be some iterations and some changes what stage are you brought into the process normally after the storyboards have kind of been completed and everything's been ticked off and now we know that we're moved that now the production company knows that they're moving forward with the shoot so that's when they start to assemble the team together and then it starts to get a bit more creative and you'll put your creative kind of flow and element into it And do you find there's a difference in when you are working on an editorial job and a commercial job?

13:02Do you feel like you have more creative control with an editorial job, whereas an advertising job, you tend to have to work a bit more within the boundaries? I sometimes find it the opposite. OK, it's interesting. Because with the editorial, depending on whom it's for and their advertisers, you have those limitations. and if you're pulling in from press offices it's really kind of what's available, what's been shot before whereas with a commercial you can bring your experience and you're giving valid and just opinions as to why this needs to change or as to why we should use this colour or as to why this would make more sense or we should definitely stay away from that because of this, this and this without going into too much detail from jobs.

13:52Yeah. I think there can be a bit more creativity, especially if you're coming up with a character for a commercial. I think styling, well, it's like anything in this career can look really glamorous from the outside. And it's really not. I mean, what's the reality of the day to day? It can definitely have the perception. I remember back in the beginning, there was a TV show. I think it was The Hills with Lauren Conrad. and she was interning at American Folk. So I was compared to her quite, I was like, oh, it's not quite the same. I think the reality, it can look a lot more glamorous than it is.

14:34It can be a lot of carrying. It can be a lot of shopping, which sounds lovely. No. Not after five hours. Yeah, I think I always say comfy shoes are kind of the most important thing. Definitely comfy shoes. But the comfy shoes, I think, can be quite funny because there's been times where I've been prepping in a well-known department store in London. The sales assistant has turned around to me and said, you do know this dress is£2 ,500. As if you can't afford it. I'm like, yeah, I know. Can I have two? Yes. So there is that funny kind of, you know, You're dressed down and you're comfy. And that's kind of gone even more so into tracksuits and stuff like that, the style recently.

15:26And then you're buying something quite expensive. And also that doesn't look like it would be your style almost as well, because you're not buying for you. Yeah, and it's very kind of glitzy, glammy.

15:42What is the longest or hardest shoot you've ever worked on? There's definitely night shoots where a night music video shoot is, there comes a point where everyone starts to go a little bit doolally. In terms of the longest shoots and speaking about it from a career perspective, that's definitely one of the things where styling and fashion creatives can be overlooked in terms of commercials and overtime. and I'd say it's only within the last 10 years where that's that information has been shared I remember being on shoots so they're booking you for a day and they assume that day can be however long the shoot's running yeah exactly that the infamous day rate which the never-ending day so that's definitely something where people are starting to understand more about a 10 plus one day or what's fair working hours.

16:38And have you always been like freelance or have you been with agencies as well? I've been with an agent prior to COVID. Right. However, I found that I was negotiating the money a bit more. So kind of went independent after that. Okay. Okay. So most of your career has been independent. So just through referrals and word of mouth and getting to know people. And what are the pros and cons, would you say, of being with an agency? I think the pros of being with an agency is you have someone in your corner. Something that comes up quite a lot is how lonely freelancers can feel. And it's definitely a shared consensus that when you're going through a quiet period, you're the only person in the world who's kind of it feels as though you're the only person in the world who's going through that and that you've done something wrong and kind of all of the thoughts and feelings and you're yeah yeah so having somebody in your corner is is incredibly helpful and especially on those shoots that have been a bit of a pain or an or a nightmare or something funny's happened just to kind of have somebody to relay that story to who understands the industry whereas independent I think you have a bit more control over what's coming in what what's you're kind of applying for the the conversations so you have a bit more insight into that yeah and I think that's true I think with with any anyone if you're with an agency you don't you don't know what's going on in the background until the agent calls you with an option or with an availability check you haven't seen all the work that's gone and you don't know the other jobs you've been put forward for and so that's when you can sort of sit and think oh I'm not doing anything I'm nothing's happening whereas yeah obviously if you're independent you're in control of all of that because you're doing all of that so and I think as well um you know it needs to be a relationship that's built on trust and the you feel kind of looked after like you've got somebody in your corner that that's that's really important which I always did feel um when I had an agent and like that was a huge positive and have you got sort of a favorite funny or chaotic sort of behind the scenes story I have had shoots without saying names because I definitely can't say names um but where I've gone and nothing's been right and they've walked in and said I don't like this this this and then I've kind of said well that's from your collection with this brand and this is from this and you wanted this but that's part of the fun of shoots is the problem solving is making sure you get there in the end because you never know when a curveball yeah it's going to come up yeah sort of in my experience is also when you're dealing when you've got three different people briefing and they're all briefing different things and you're having to try and pull it together.

19:45I remember a big shoot for a big, big company and we had, we built this set. It was kind of a big room set and they were just arguing about the stand that the TV had to be on and it was a white stand that the TV had to be on. Well, we ended up with about six white stands that all looked exactly the same and no one could, they could not make a decision and then it wasn't even in the final cut. You're just thinking, oh. But I feel like that's becoming more and more as there's more partnerships going on. There's more everyone's kind of quite scared of being cancelled or saying the wrong thing. I do quite enjoy when I see in an Instagram post or LinkedIn or wherever, where somebody's written copy for an advert and it just doesn't read.

20:34you can see what they wanted to say but they probably weren't allowed to say it yes because there was about five people saying like we can't say this and we can't say that and that's definitely having a knock-on effect and i assume with modeling as well because i've been on jobs where partnerships come on board and then models have been confirmed and then they're being changed last minute and that has a knock-on effect on me because i'm waiting for the sizes sure so i'm hanging off going home and after doing the five hours shopping with more to do because because you've got a different model it's a completely different shape yeah because people can't kind of agree on everything can you remember any last minute wardrobe emergencies before someone went on on camera or stage it was more um when I first started um and I was doing a music video and the artist had a bodysuit on and it had ridden up the poppers down at the bottom.

21:37And I was trying really kind of gingerly to put it back and to tuck it underneath. And the musician just kind of shouted at me like, just grab it and tuck it under. I was like, okay. So I think that was... It wasn't a malfunction, but I was just... From that, you could have learned that you just have to do it. You just have to get in there. And I've been, you know, doing up flies and bits and pieces. That's probably also some of the unglamorous side that people don't think about, you know, is all of that. Yeah.

22:22So when you're given a brief, say, modern British tailoring or romantic minimalism. How do you start building that vision? Do you like mood board or do you go straight to designers? I still love the old fashioned mood board because that's, again, pre-Instagram. So I've got tons of reference books, still tons of bold copies of Vogue. So I'll have a flick through, get inspiration from there originally. And then I will go on to Pinterest and Instagram and look at different things and then going to designers and then going to shops and seeing what's out there. And then how do you communicate that vision to the team?

23:05So with that on a mood board, sometimes I'll do it, like I said, kind of still cut and paste because even now, like I like tangible things. More time off a computer for me, the better. But quite often you do need to upload it because it needs to go in a deck and different clients and directors and people need to see it and their hair and makeup need to see it and then you're on a call about it a good stylist has has to you have to go in and you have to like read the room so you know you've got models you've got clients photographers you've got hair and makeup how do you build that trust kind of quickly on set with the experience I have I know what I'm doing so I'll walk in straight away and my stylist room where my rails are organize the room as I think will work best particularly as we're saying about partnerships at the moment there can be five different stages when you're doing a shoot so there can be socials uh TBC there can be stills press and I'm not afraid to take control of what works best for me and my team and what's going to be most efficient rather than waiting for somebody sure to tell me And I guess that comes from experience and knowing your job.

24:29And what do you think makes a model stand out to you as a stylist? Somebody who is able to carry the looks because that's something, again, with different modalities can be quite different. So if you're working with a musician, you're building that person's brand and that person's image if you're working with some people in tv particularly who's new to it then they you realize they can be quite nervous whereas a model is there to carry the look so i think it's quite different in in that respect so that level of professionalism not bringing their opinions to it everybody needs to be comfortable but with a model it it's about kind of what looks best for the camera especially with um editorial because you know you can be wearing some quite outrageous and sometimes quite different clothes and in some quite crazy locations and i guess you only have one of them as well you don't have different sizes yeah if in that scenario so you're having to make that fit yeah for the model whatever the model size is yeah exactly that and And you've got the time constraints of, you know, how many looks are you fitting into this day?

25:49How many setups do you have? What works with what setup? What location? Is there time for a hair or makeup change? Because especially with editorial, everybody wants to get what they need from the shoot. And the model's putting the trust in everybody else that they're going to look fantastic, which of course they are. but it's just a different modality. And have you noticed a change in client expectations with social media rise? So sort of with like faster turnaround or more assets or smaller crews or anything like that? Definitely more assets. There can be a lot more that's added to the plate in terms of assets and expectations.

26:35Only if you're thinking about it from a business perspective do you sort of push back on that and say, we can do whatever you need us to do as long as we're paid for what you need us to do rather than we're just going to do a shoot and then you find out later that there's socials added on top and there's different things it kind of needs to be there from the beginning so you know what you're walking into.

27:07Because obviously e-commerce, that really is, I think, where AI is going to take over. There's so much they can do now without having a model, a stylist. What's your take on that? It's really interesting from so many different perspectives. But if with shoots online, obviously a lot of shops closed during covid because they hadn't pivoted to e-commerce enough or properly but then what we see with online retailers is it's a real interesting mix between ai diversity equality and inclusion so on the one hand they'll be shooting lots of different models from different heritage or different sizes which is something we're really pushing but on the other hand there's these ai models who are size six predominantly blonde and that started to move slowly into editorial with with a couple of adverts and when the makers of the ai were asked they said that the size six blonde was what performed best so on the one hand if we're trying to move forward and be more inclusive to step away from that old narrative the fact that ai is pushing us back into it yeah it's really quite scary and also it's going to be really scary about beauty standards because again historically we called out the beauty standards were unapplicable with retouching and then with social media when you could retouch yourself yourself um i think it was rankin did the exhibition where young girls were retouching yeah themselves to to show the kind of disparity so to see us going all the way back it's like it's like tumbling back down the hill absolutely yeah like tumbling all the way back down to the bottom of the hill yeah it's really worrying isn't it and it's and no one really knows and no one you know the problem is there is no legislation yes yeah protection yeah absolutely there's no legislation or protection or boundaries you know at the moment and I know in New York they will see you can't actually give away a model's likeness and I think we need to have something like that here it's so new at the moment and you are going to get people that are using it in unethical ways and you just hope that the big companies will be ethical and will yeah but you don't know it's all about what sells their product isn't it because I think Denmark as well brought out some legislation because they have heard about models selling their likeness in perpetuity.

29:51Yes. And it's, again, it's that lack of understanding as to what people are doing. Well, at the moment, you know, literally every contract we now have coming through has now got an AI clause. Yeah. And it's a different AI clause. And we're saying, no, you've got to take it out. And they're saying, well, we're not as standard. As standard, we can't take it out. And we're saying, well, you can't have the model. Everyone's got to do that because the problem is if they then will go and book a model direct or something, then they're just going to sign away. They're just going to sign it. They're not going to have the protection or understand really what they're signing.

30:25But that's where I think it's really important about sharing of information. Yeah. Like that, the baseline business ethics. Yes. As it were, for everybody to protect themselves because what you're the agency or what I might do, like you say, we all need to do it together. Yeah. to create a change or to protect. An industry standard. Yeah, exactly that.

30:55What have been your proudest campaigns and editorials? I love seeing any work out in the wild. So seeing anything, particularly when it's unexpected. So if I'm about to jump on the tube and then there's a massive advert or a magazine on a shelf and I'm like, with Gabrielle Applin, there was a Christmas number one. So whenever something's a new milestone, stuff like that, I really, really love. In terms of not the proudest, but the most emotional, slightly less lighthearted, I guess. But when I worked on a shoot for a retailer up in the Scottish Highlands, and it wasn't too long after my dad had passed away, and he's from the Scottish Highlands, that shoot was incredible on a personal note just to kind of see where he'd grown up um it's quite different culturally the highlands to you know even though it's so close to London it was a beautiful shoot and feeling really connected to my dad so I think that's one of the beautiful and interesting things about styling and being freelance is you never know really what's going to come in next and where it's going to take you and who the client's going to be or what you're and the ability to multitask and to get your head into these different characters in different worlds particularly if you're juggling a couple of jobs at the same time i really love

32:29i saw somewhere that in tv and film so at the moment they have intimacy coordinators they're looking at kind of maybe integrating with that or alongside that having mental health kind of coordinators and the idea about mental health within the industry particularly if for freelancers because again I find my dad was really influence influential to me okay and at that point um when he passed away like the job that I went straight into after he passed away was a music video filmed in a hospital so feeling like there was nobody to talk to who would understand that and it got through the job and the job was absolutely fine I think that's yeah that's if you're working freelance you're working with different people every shoot and you don't have that closeness I think if you're in a close-knit team in an office where you're with the same people every day I think you get that from them whereas as a freelancer you yeah you you don't I can understand that and it I like I said it seems to be stuff that's coming to the surface but just so long as fashion isn't overlooked because quite often it can be but but yeah I think stuff like that's really important yeah absolutely so um Holly let's move on to um another side of your career, one that's equally creative, but with a very different focus, your work with BEC2's Fashion UK branch.

34:03So for listeners outside the UK or unfamiliar, can you explain what BEC2 is, first of all, and who it represents? So BEC2 stands for Broadcasting, Entertainment, Communications, Theatre, Union. It covers all of those areas and has different branches be in tv film across different areas but has never looked after fashion so it's we've had a committee for a year and three months so quite fresh and quite new and it's just about starting to create that industry standard that we spoke about earlier And what kinds of support does BEC2 provide to its members? The key is late payment support. That's something that comes up for our members quite a lot and they need quite a lot of help with.

34:59And alongside that, it can help with legal advice if there's something that happens. They can offer advice in different areas. They have a ton of workshops about branding or how to look advocate for yourself or late payments and lots of different areas. As it's a union, if there's something you want them to talk about or to kind of add on to their agenda, then you can put it to them. You can bring it up at conference. There's different ways.

35:37I joined Bec2 because I had a personal issue and then found the Fashion UK. It hadn't formed at that point. It was just kind of beginning to form. And you could put yourself forward for the committee and for the chair. Having known all of the different areas within the industry, I really wanted to help leave the industry a better place than I found it. Also, growing up in a pub, I'd heard lots of pub politics growing up. So customers who have very big opinions but aren't doing a lot to change anything. And after a drink or two, those opinions get more and more. But no one changes. No one's ever doing anything.

36:20So I really wanted to make a change. What was the initial reaction from people when you set this up? So it's been really positive. We did our state of the sector survey at the beginning of the year. that had over 500 people fill it out. It was really eye-opening as to what's happening within the industry. Stats of poor mental health, late payments, mistreatment. The survey is completely anonymous, so people felt like they could talk to what had happened. But quite a lot of people being quite scared to say what's happening. To be able to first shine a light on that, to get it into papers and stuff like that.

37:07Were you shocked at the survey results or were they what you thought they would be? I was shocked because some of it was worse than what I'd seen 20 years ago. Okay, wow. So as I'd kind of said, for me, when I was assisting or interning, I went through some stuff, but it was kind of more like, it wasn't really that bad. but I had heard horror stories of other people and I just expected the industry had improved okay but it hadn't what were some of the findings that shocked you the hours that people were working people working for free being blamed for things people feel powerless to sort of speak up because they think well they just won't use me again and then yes yeah but I do think that's one of the interesting balancing acts you know we can't talk about a toxic industry without realizing that some of those things will have been passed down.

38:06So even though a fashion creative might think that she or he is running their business professionally, that they might still have some bad habits. Yeah. So it has to be this balance between like not attacking what's come before and wanting to improve it both up and down. So kind of you're educating up and you're educating down as to lifting the standard up rather than a young generation attacking an older generation. Sure. So who can join? So is it open to all freelancers? It's open to stylists, hairstylists, makeup artists, nail techs, designers, PRs. Not models yet? No, because the models have the BFMA.

38:49That's actually not for models though, that's for agencies. So there isn't actually a union looking after models. I thought that was a union. No, they can join equity if they're doing TV commercials and things. but the bfma is actually for model agencies oh yeah it has great resources it has guidance and it has but i think it doesn't the models aren't members of that it's the agency oh what resources does membership actually give people so it gives people um the late payments line access to legal advice the workshops and if you ask back to to put on a workshop and there's enough interest then they'll get the resources together to put that together for you so it's really pulling people together as well it's sort of creating a community where people could share any issues they've had maybe get support from each other as well yes exactly that we've got a whatsapp group that has over 600 people in it so quite often there's people in there who are asking advice of one another so it builds that community so the state of the sector report that you released um that you just touched on revealed that 79 of fashion creatives have been pressured to work for free what other findings stood out to you people weren't kind of happy in that with their mental health that they felt unsupported that they felt pressured the working hours were kind of that there wasn't any switcher some were being asked to do things above the expectation of their role and what sort of practical tools um is fashion uk introducing to help fix these issues well first of all i think it's really important that when you're agreeing to a job the person who is engaging you that is the the person who's responsible to pay you unless it's pre-agreed the legal turnaround as a 30 day you know making sure that you have that on your invoice but also the expectation shouldn't be beyond that we're talking about how fashion creatives as as a career running it as a business every other stage above that needs to run it as a business as well they're not being paid for six months that shouldn't have the knock-on effect and also So managing expectations.

41:16You know, if 30 days is the standard, then why are these 60 day payment terms? Where have they come from? I've definitely been in a situation that actually wasn't me. It was somebody on my team. We'd come onto a job and then we ended up being told we needed to invoice different companies. and I had been paid and the person on my team was told that they wouldn't be paid for a couple of months she cc'd me in and I really pushed for her to be paid quicker and they kind of said like well this is the way we do things I'm like but that's not no one's agreed to this like nobody's told us this like she was brought on through me so this hasn't been brought to my attention yeah I tend to get a lot more.

42:06So I've got somebody who's worked with me. She would be my first port of call. I think I often get more upset than she does. It's disgusting. I mean, I think that we used to have the 30 day payment terms were years ago. And that was because people had to wait for checks to clear. They don't have to do that now. Paying someone is the click of a button. It shouldn't even be 30 days. The other thing that's been brought in recently is all these portals that you have to be putting your invoice on. So every company now uses a different payment portal. So not only are you having to raise your own invoice, you're then having to raise the invoice on the client's portal, which then you have to have a username and a password, but then that doesn't work.

42:50You can't get hold of anybody. You can't just pick up the phone and say, I'm having issues. Can you help me? I think it's really put more and more and more barriers in place then i've got an accounts department at my agency dealing with all of this and they're pulling their hair out with all these new portals so for a freelancer to have to manage all this it's not fair i i think as well um one of the things that kind of comes with that so i i've had that come up sometimes it includes a third party questionnaire and that third party questionnaire So A, with the portals, nobody's asking, is it GDPR protected?

43:28There's kind of the assumption that it is. But also with the third party questionnaires, some of those questions can be incredibly personal. And you can get a sense of it being tick boxing. And in terms of the one I saw asked questions about mental health, like what's your class background? What's your heritage? Do you have any disabilities? and with people with disabilities for example those people are are perfectly able and and yes of course like everyone should be employed but make sure that things are accessible to where it's needed whereas it doesn't feel like that's often happening it feels like it's ticking a box to say like we're an inclusive organization yeah but not necessarily doing the right thing.

44:15I have a really high, I guess, expectation of that because I've worked on some of the advertisements for the Paralympics. With that, the TV production for the ad campaign go above and beyond. Like they are incredible. So I've seen what it can be. Yeah. And it's often not what it can be. So many freelancers do fear losing work if they make a fuss. how how do you handle that you need to be able to walk away if it goes below your level of comfort that that's the wrong word for it but if it goes below your standards i think there's that idea of everyone's disposable and you're easily replaceable people don't always value the experience so first of all you need to value what you're bringing to the table but also if you've tried to negotiate up a rate and somebody's saying that they don't have the budget for that you have to be able to walk away and you know maybe that's for an assistant with less experience than you and I think also what people do a lot um and we we get it all the time and as an agency and we we say we say no you know oh well if you just do this for us free then you know the next one we might have a budget for experience tells you that that isn't how it works and that's one of the things that comes up again and again this idea of like oh can you just help us out with this one can you just do a favor on this one and it's not a hobby it's a career and and sometimes I get the sense that people in other departments aren't being spoken to as if like can you just do a favor on this one you do kind of have to turn around and be like well this is my rates and this is my terms and this is when I switch off and put those boundaries in place.

46:08Yes absolutely because you know yeah you need to think of yourself as a professional and you've trained in this and you are worth paying for. One of the great benefits to having an agent is you're not the one then having those conversations there's a little bit of a buffer when all of those changes happen it's gone from six looks to nine looks another model's been added in somebody's sizes have come across wrong you've just found out this at the last minute having the agent to speak in those conversations so you can keep your mind on yes the changes to the job yeah is of great benefit because of all of this is we we pay our models the day after the invoice is raised so we take all of that away from them and that is also good for clients we've had a lot of positive feedback from clients because a lot of the time so you may be the client booking our model but you're not in control of when that model gets paid you're passing then the invoice on so it means that you know that that model's been paid and you haven't got to worry about that.

47:05I'm hoping you know more agencies will start doing that.

47:14Beyond money what are the biggest safety or well-being concerns behind the scenes? Well in terms of safety I think nobody ever accounts for the heavy load be that across styling, hairstyling, makeup artists, is kits and suitcases and bringing all of that stuff to set. There's nothing more heartbreaking than turning up to set with 12 extra large suitcases. And they use one thing. And finding out the lift is broken and you've got to go. Oh, okay. Because, you know, I'm not a heavy lifter. And no one helps you. Well, I ask. Yeah. I make sure I find the runner or the studio assistant and I do ask.

47:57But in terms of that, there's many people who have bad backs and problems from safety and a lifting perspective. From the mental health, I can't help but keep going back to the same point of that kind of feeling of loneliness and of not kind of feeling looked after, having no HR department or having no person to kind of just bounce the ideas of. So is it still sort of very early days with Fashion UK or have you established any clear protocols or reporting systems yet. We've got the number. So any problems you can call in with Beck too. We've managed to get a lower rate for interns. So I think that's a massive thing because there are people who are interning, so they're not being paid and they're still finding themselves in negative experiences.

48:49And internship and intern experience, you should learn on that experience they're not getting those opportunities yeah so rather than doing that they might be doing returns which taking something back across london isn't teaching you about the styling industry now you've spoken about better protections for pregnant workers and parents what are the current gaps there and what do you want to see improved that was one of our motions we put forward at conference from speaking to lots of different people lots of people are scared to say when they're pregnant in case they won't get the jobs there's a feeling of kind of discrimination against pregnant women they're kind of anxious about returning to work so there's there's no support there and it's something that is across the creative industries it's something that needs to be looked at a pregnant woman can do her job just as well in terms of hair and makeup absolutely i guess they're thinking well we've got to put then extra things in on set and we've got to tell our insurance company and and things but isn't it fantastic that after covid we could see how quickly the industry could adapt to is it covid inspectors what what were they called the people who were made sure made sure you were five five meters or however yes oh yes do you know i mean like how quickly we can adapt when we need to absolutely So if you need styling, you need hair, you need makeup on set.

50:20It's a predominantly female industry. So provide the provisions that may be needed. You could amalgamate that into a mental health coordinator. So it's not actually an extra thing that you're paying for because a mental health coordinator would benefit the entire production. I think it's really interesting. the the tv and film industry has a lot greater protections than the the fashion industry does so it's definitely something to draw inspiration tv and film have great cards they have guides to good practice um that's something that fashion uk is currently working on is our guide to good practice but that's creating a standard across the industry we want to make things so that it's more accessible so that we know what people's rights are and if you know what your base level rights are then you can advocate yourself and go from there going back to the entry level creatives how can we protect those interns and assistants by letting them know what their rights are by having the system at beck two where you can kind of call and anonymously kind of speak about what's happening and kind of put names and get guidance and legal support i mean is it something where you can go to the companies like you can go to the big fashion houses you can go to the magazines and try and get them to put it in place there because ultimately i guess it's that thing again where okay somebody can say well i'm not doing that but they'll just go and get someone else that will Oh, it's definitely about building partnerships.

52:03Building partnerships is key. And especially, you know, as I don't believe there's many people who are horrible and horrific. It's just it's been a negative culture for a long time. There hasn't been a standard to adhere to. so rather than kind of pointing fingers at people you know that that company's evil and that person's and don't work for that especially when lots of companies in fashion have been set up themselves without any guidance sure so it's about educating yeah and shining a light on things but trying to do it in a kind way how are you engaging with agencies and production houses and clients we have meetings focus is on the guide to good practice to create that base level to look after the most vulnerable people in the industry so they've got something they can kind of build from and then from then on we'll go on to do rate guidance that's the point where you're talking to different magazines independent magazines different agents and working out what is the lay of the land and how can businesses like ours an agency support the work that fashion uk is doing so i think in terms of being aware of that level of advocacy so when you're talking about rates and and i'm and i'm sure you do it already but making sure that you're doing what's best for the talent and managing the client's expectations if it's needed so you know taking accountability for the payment which you've said you guys do but that's what everyone should do and and not being afraid to call out if something's wrong at the same time because that's the hardest thing that's obviously how we've got to where we've got to today is nobody's ever been like oh you shouldn't do that or you shouldn't say that it is something that may be harder within our industry because it as women it's not always something we're taught is okay to do and what have you learned about leadership from stepping into this role?

54:07I think just to make sure that you're listening to all of the different voices, not just the loudest. Within our industry, there are people who have large Instagram followers. It's making sure that the people who don't have large Instagram followers are equally as listened to. And alongside that, making sure that we're not continuing the negative culture so empower everybody i think what's so important is that you guys have been in industry for so long and you understand what people are saying you know you've been there you can sympathize you understand how the industry works since the beginning of my career you know we spoke about fran and kathy and bay i've always seen those three in particular give back so prior to coming on board with um fashion uk i've done mentorships with future frontiers and a couple of different companies um worked with crisis and a couple of different charities so making sure to give back and to help those who need it and to try to inspire a change and people to get into the industry and to give that business perspective younger people they will come with the idea of oh it's fashion and i like dressing up and i like clothes and i'm That's fantastic.

55:28Let's put that into a business perspective. You need to walk into a room. You need to know the history of what you're talking about. You need to be able to manage the room. You need to be able to speak to the client. You need to be able to present. You need to be able to handle a budget. That's the reality of it compared to I like dresses. It is something when you work in fashion, where it's like, oh, so you like shopping. Yeah. my business is probably more dynamic than than who's talking but talking to me and i'm like no it's much more than that yeah

56:13fashion hasn't historically been associated with unions um do you feel that the stigma around collective action is fading or getting stronger? I think it's fading. I think with the way the world has changed, there's now a flattening of information, if that makes sense. So everything's a lot more accessible and less hierarchical. You can easily message somebody on Instagram. You can join WhatsApp groups. There's Facebook groups. So you can share information a lot better. So that builds a collective. But as I say, I think there needs to be a respect of what came before as to where we are now and how to bring the two together.

57:00I feel like with Instagram coming in at the start of my career, I can see a change between what came before me and what's come after me. And the ideologies are very different. I think there needs to be a respect for what came before and just a mutual wanting to improve everything all the way along the line.

57:28So what does success look like for Fashion UK in the next few years? Amazing advocacy for its members. With that, it's obviously we've got a diverse membership. So making sure that we're bringing everyone up all together and that nobody's kind of cast or left to one side. Yeah, so for stylists or makeup artists listening who might be struggling with something, for example, a late payment or poor conditions now, what are the practical steps that they can take today? So the most important thing is to say that with Vecto and with Fashion UK, they can't help with ongoing problems. So you need to, it's like car insurance.

58:17You need to be a member before a problem arises. In terms of getting contact with, the best is to email membership at bec2.org.uk. So what message would you want to send to anyone entering the industry today? Despite the negative stuff, because that can be some of the problem, right? Is that we're trying to make the industry better and we're touching on kind of some of the bad things that have happened but you know there are lighter points and it is an amazing industry and you can do a job in Miami one day and then be on a music video the next day and then you're on a shoot and there's dogs do you know really you never know what what's going to come next and that's one of the amazing things about it and it is creative and it is empowering to run your own business and you can kind of go into different things alongside it such as writing or event styling there's there's lots of different avenues it can be a joy to go to work but that there are going to be harder days and to learn from them and grow from them and if you've had a shoot with a late payment making sure that you put those terms in the next and putting those late terms in your contract for the next job or if you haven't spoken about transport and this one like just making sure you grow and improve because I think there can be a habit to call out everything and everything's bad whereas so many things happened when I was interning and when I was kind of coming up and I learned from all of them and I tried to look for the positive in every kind of situation.

1:00:04Holly thank you so much I think it's admirable that you're using your experience and knowledge now to help the next generation. And after hearing what you've said, I'm really optimistic that the next generation are going to have a fairer industry. So thank you so much for this conversation.

1:00:26It's important to point out that while there are strong unions and support bodies for many creative and technical roles in fashion and entertainment, There's currently no dedicated trade union in the UK that exclusively represents models across all their work. So models do have some options. For example, if you're doing film, TV or commercial work, you may be eligible to join Equity, which is the UK performing arts union. There's also the Model Alliance, a nonprofit organization based in New York, which pushes for better rights for models globally. Although it doesn't operate yet as a UK union, it does have really good resources which are worth looking at.

1:01:08If you're a model and your agency is not being cooperative, here are some practical steps you can take. So first of all, check your contract. Make sure that you have a written agreement that sets out pay, usage, licensing of images, travel time and expenses and cancellation terms. Check your pay terms and timing. So if you're asked to do a job and there's no clear pay timeline or if you're asked to work for exposure, that is a warning sign. Join equity if applicable. So if you're doing work that falls into performing or acting territory, commercials or broadcast TV, joining equity gives you access to legal advice, public liability insurance up to 10 million and representation.

1:01:52seek advice if your agency isn't being helpful you can contact advisory bodies like ACAS for free guidance on contracts and rights or talk to a solicitor specializing in entertainment and fashion law build your own records make sure you keep records of emails contracts booking confirmations invoices usage and licensing of images because this will all help if there is a dispute. Join forums or peer groups of models, stylists and creatives. Sharing experiences helps identify bad practices and build collective awareness. Raise concerns with your agency. If something feels unfair, late payment, usage of your images beyond what you agreed, raise it in writing.

1:02:40If your agency is unresponsive, consider switching or seeking legal advice and explore advocacy groups. So while the UK doesn't yet have a full models union, staying aware of organisations like the Model Alliance and any emerging UK initiatives is useful.