Ian Boddy, Children’s Commercial & Editorial Photographer

0:02Welcome to the Business of Modeling, the podcast where we explore the fascinating world of the modelling industry. I'm Tessa Dewing, Managing Director of Sandra Reynolds, a commercial model agency celebrating its 50th year of business. Today we're in London with photographer Ian Boddy, whose work sits at the centre of children's commercial and fashion advertising in the UK and beyond. Ian has become the go-to name for brands and productions needing natural high-performance imagery of children and teens, a niche that requires far more technical and emotional skill than people really realise. We're going to talk about how Ian built his career, what really happens on set with kids, how briefs have changed, the realities of working with major brands and the moments where everything goes wrong.

1:00So hi Ian, welcome to the Business of Modelling. Hello, thank you for having me. I actually grew up in Surrey for the first 10 years. And then my parents split up and we moved down to Sussex, which is where I spent most of my formative years. And then I came to London to pursue this career, basically, because there wasn't one to be had in a village in Sussex. In Sussex. So where were you educated? What did you study? Do you know what? I actually left school at 16, didn't do any art subjects whatsoever. certainly didn't do photography at all it's a bit of a cliche in a way but I was given a camera by my dad probably when I was about 10 and I used to just love it and taking photos of whatever I was interested in but then I fell out of love with it and went to my dad and said look dad I don't really don't really want this camera anymore I want like a little snappy one I think that'll be good and he was like oh okay right fine so he took that camera and told me that he'd sold it and gave me the money and I went off and bought a little snappy camera and that was that was great but then fast forward several years and I got back interested in it again and I told him and he was like oh so maybe you'll want this again then will you and he got to the cupboard and bought it out and he never did sell it he kept it and uh gave it back to me and so that that was sort of what I was interested in but I never saw it as a potential career I mean honestly I was super aimless when I was younger just sort of drifting through never giving any thought to what I was going to do with the rest of my life and I was supposed to go to design college after school in Chichester at Chichester College then that fell through because there weren't enough people to run the course I didn't really know I was like oh well now what am I going to do so then I spent a few years doing various different jobs like all of them not career related a multitude of things.

3:01My stepfather's a builder, was a builder before he retired. So I used to work for him sometimes. I worked in restaurants as a waiters. And this was all when you were in Sussex still? Yeah. Even worked on a mushroom farm at one point, packing mushrooms. I was like, do anything. Then it got to a point where I specifically remember sitting in a pub, our local, where everybody went and a friend of mine who had gone off to university came home for probably the summer holidays maybe in christmas holidays and i and i felt like oh my god he's been off to university for a term and i've and i'm pretty sure i'm still sitting in the same chair that i was in six months ago when i last saw him and it made me feel like i gotta get out of here like i can't this is not what i'm like this is gonna just go on and on if i don't do something I need to get out of here and away from this place and do something.

3:57And I had no concept of, I didn't know any photographers. I didn't know what it was like to make a living as one. But I did have the idea that I could probably do something, whatever I wanted in a sense. And my parents were, in a way, never gave me any guidance, but at the same time, never talked me out of doing anything either. so when I said what I was going to do they were like yeah sure I basically sat down and wrote a letter bearing in mind this is pre-internet sat down and wrote a letter which I then photocopied off about 50 times got the yellow pages and went through yellow pages to everybody that looked like they're either photographer or a studio or something like that not in London but because I thought London's too much of a stretch there's no point going there I didn't really know London so it would be places like Brighton, Horsham, Crawley the biggish towns and I got no replies whatsoever so fast forward about two or three months and I'm working in a restaurant in Guildford hating it anyway then I got a phone call from this bloke who was one of the people I'd written to and he was like oh hello who's that Ian I was like yeah it's Chris his name is Chris Fairclough and he had a studio about five miles from where my parents live he said what are you doing?

5:17I said literally nothing he said well look I got your letter I was going to throw it in the bin because I thought you cheeky so-and-so you can't even be bothered to write a proper letter you've just photocopied it off and filled in the dear bit but he said I read your cv which obviously didn't really have much in it and he said I looked and I saw on your cv that you got your chief scouts award because I was like I was in the boy scouts and the chief scouts was like the Duke of Edinburgh Gold, I would suppose. He was like, I used to be a scout leader, so I recognised that you must have something about you because you've got that.

5:54So he said, come up to the studio and I'll see you. So I went up to the studio and he was a really tall guy and I walked in and there were cameras and lights and I've never been in a studio in my life. And he just sort of looked down at me and said, well, you know, what kind of photography are you interested in? I said, I don't know. I said, I think I just said, oh, Carl's. Were you a typical Kevin the teenager? I just didn't know. I wasn't interested in any sort of photography. I literally had no answer. So anyway, to his credit, he basically took me under his wing. I had to keep working at the restaurant in the evenings because he wasn't paying me enough to not.

6:31But I would work for him three or four days a week in the daytime in his studio. Sometimes we'd go up to London on location. the subjects that he shot was funnily enough quite a lot of kid related stuff it was it was for educational books the kind of books that you would have in school libraries like how to do things and it was lovely he was a really lovely man and uh i worked for him for probably 18 months and it and it was great and he let me use his stuff occasionally to do little tests in his studio and stuff well i thought this is this is great yeah this is really good but at the same time I was thinking well he's paying me like I think it's like 25 quid a day or something I can't I'm never gonna leave home no yeah this is lovely but I I can't do this for the rest of my life I'm not going to earn enough money to leave home and I really want to leave home so at that point it just so worked out well that a few of my friends about four of them all were thinking of going to Australia for a year so I basically piggybacked that idea and so I left Chris and I saved up enough money to go to to get my visa uh and i went to australia for a year with my mates didn't do any photography i just worked in cafes and bars and had probably the best year ever because it was just wonderful then came back from that and that was when i thought right i'm gonna go to london and i'm gonna damn well get a job somehow assisting somebody so there was a thing called the association of photographers yeah which is still running today i believe again it was pre internet so there was a job line on that and you would have to ring it up at six o 'clock on a Friday and listen to a recorded message of all the jobs that were available how interesting so there I am with a bit of paper writing down and it was like oh um studio for two photographers that share a studio who shoot uh books for Dorland Kindersley lots of food but other things as well need a studio assistant and I thought well I well screw it why not so I went up to London and interviewed with them and I got that job because I'd obviously got some experience by then I could say I'd done some yeah so I worked with them a lovely couple of bloats called David and Jules and it was it was all studio based and lots of it was like step-by-step food stuff for books published by so you were learning a lot of technical so I learned loads of stuff yeah loads the technical stuff you know I wasn't thinking this is what I definitely want to do again you know being the sort of person I am I didn't know what I wanted to do still but you know I worked for them for probably two years learnt tons of uh technical stuff had a really good fun because they were lovely there was all the girls upstairs were the book designers I ended up dating one of them so it was all like love you know great and at that time were you were you employed or were Was it freelance like it is now?

9:27It was still freelance. Yeah, so I've always only ever been freelance. But the successful photographers had their own studios back then, didn't they? Yeah, these guys did. Well, it was the publishers owned the studios. The photographers didn't, but they worked on it. And I mean, it was a brilliant time, you know. It was all fun. And when did the children's work start? Not for ages, because then I left them and I went full time for an advertising photographer in Clapham for four years. Oh, was that Bay Hippesley? Yeah. Yeah, I remember you there. Yeah, which is obviously where I met Cobb. So I worked for Bay for about four years and that was an amazing experience.

10:10And he shot a lot of kids, didn't he, I think? He did. Again, he used to work for Hasbro a lot, who were the games people. and Bay was a very, very, very technical photographer, like brilliantly technical. So he would have these incredible guys would come in and build sets of whatever. It could be a set of an overhead view of an airport or it could be because he worked for Hasbro. We did all the packaging for Cindy. Oh, yeah. Which meant that they would get these set builders in and come and build a little LA house with a pool and then we would yeah it's amazing we would then photograph the cindy doll in the thing but we'd have a makeup artist would come with like five different cindy heads and you know brushed all their hair perfectly and then stick the best head on at the end and and we did all that so that was awesome bae was a kind of infuriating man to work with sometimes because he was old school let's say sure but i loved him and he taught me so much and he is a again a lovely a lovely guy who um still i don't think he's he's not photographing anymore but he has a location website and i think he lives down in chichester and is really into sailing these days but yeah no that that was great education for me but i kept saying see all these assistants i kind of knew at the labs because this was again pre-ditch so part of my job would be to get on my bike in the morning cycle from my house which was very close to the studio in clapham but i had to cycle all the way over to Chelsea, pick the film up from Metro and Kings Road from the night before, then cycle it back to work.

11:52So I'd always bump into all the assistants and they were all working for freelance fashion guys. And I was working for Bay stuck in a studio my 90 % of the time and working really long hours for Bay. Again, old school, you know, it was very normal to still be there at 10 at night, but you know, I was learning tons and I kept seeing these fashion guys and they were like, oh, you know, we've just come back from here and there. And it was like, That sounds much more like what in my mind it was going to be like. So eventually I left Bay and I went properly freelance and ended up working for a string of fashion guys, none of whom did kids, but all of whom travelled a lot.

12:32But that must have been scary, you know, kind of going from a few and quite secure job at Bay. Yeah, because even though I was technically freelance, I was on good wage. Consistent. And it was consistent. And so there was an element of security. And then when you went freelance, were you getting work? Was it through word of mouth? Was it through agencies? A bit of both, but it was really patchy. You know, there were times where, just like in my world these days, you know, I could be very busy and then not have any work for weeks and weeks and weeks. And there were times where I even had to sign on because I was like, I don't have any option.

13:08I've got no work. And then your question, did you question what? Well, I never had a plan B, so this was always going to have to work. But there were times where I was, you know, living in a rubbishy little flat in a one bedroom with people I didn't really know very well, not working and signing on, thinking, well, this isn't a dream, is it? This isn't what I thought it was going to be. But always thinking something will happen, something will happen. And it did, you know, eventually I got connections with a bunch of very good and nice fashion photographers, some portrait photographers. And, you know, and I was working regularly.

13:49And more importantly to me, I was traveling a lot. Well, Miami and Cape Town are the two like go-to places in this industry. So I was spending a lot of time going to those places and loving life, basically, because it was fairly low responsibility. It was loads of fun. Got to travel, which I adore. Yeah, this is now, this is me. So tell us about some of those early shoots. So when I first worked for the food guys in the studio, I remember the first few times we were doing a thing where there was fairly rapid changeover of film backs because he was shooting quite quick. And you'd have to take the film out.

14:27You have to lick the paper and roll up the roll. And I remember once I went to squeeze it and I had the end and it just pinged out my fingers and shot off like a loo roll. Obviously completely exposed. And I was just left there feeling like the biggest idiot. Luckily, you know, we're shooting step-by-step food or something. So we were able to go, oh, we're going to have to do that one again. But I did feel like a complete idiot. But once you've done that once, you're then really super careful. and then you never do it again. There was a time wherein I was on one of my first trips. We were in Miami.

15:02This particular photographer was quite neurotic when he had a camera in his hand. It was lovely when he didn't, but he would get quite tense when he was shooting and he would keep going, what's the reading? What's the read? You know, you have to take light readings. So it would be like 250 at five six. And there was no clouds in the sky. So it never changed. It was for an hour. But he kept saying, what's the reading? What's the reading? What's the reading? I'd be like, it's 5.6 at T50. It's 5.6 at T50. And one time I went, oh God, it's still 5.6. And I'd like nothing, no big deal. These days, if an assistant said that, you would just laugh because it's funny, right?

15:43He was, oh my God, he lost his. He was like, don't you ever talk like that to me in front of the model. If you don't want to be here, you could go home. And I was like, oh my god gotta write one here but it does does he keep booking you yes yes to his credit yeah he did yeah and i guess yeah you're working with different photographers with different temperaments all the time so you have to be good at reading people and pre-empting what they what they need from you as a good i know that these days it's really different these days i think these days is just the way of the world if a photographer behave like that towards an assistant An assistant would tell him where to get off and probably walk off set.

16:25But back in the day, I guess, also, I wasn't really that kind of personality. I wouldn't have said that to someone. I would have just not been available for them again. But I wouldn't have said, oh, screw you, and walked off set. But I guess in the old days. I think, yeah. In the old days. There was a lot more of a kind of power. There was. There was. Power and balance of life. And you just sort of like, and also, you do learn from these things. You do. I mean, there were two key people I worked with at one particular point in my life who were really like chalk and cheese. One was a very, very middle class English photographer, old school, old money.

17:05The other one was very much more brash Australian slash New Yorker. They couldn't have been more different, but I loved working for both of them because they both I just cribbed off them all the time in terms of like how to. because half this business is not really about taking pictures it's about how to deal with people and so being able to read people and think oh the way that guy is with clients is amazing they're literally eating out of his hand the way that guy is he's a better photographer but he's really you know spiky more difficult where yeah you know or people talk about him But his back is a bit of a dick, you know, whatever.

17:47Yeah. And so that's the beauty of assisting for a long time is you learn what to do, but also what not to do. And to be able to, you know, walk into a big studio sometimes with 50 or 60 people and be able to take control immediately. Yeah, in the room, yeah. And be like a conductor, really, conducting an orchestra. Because the photographer, generally speaking, will be at the top of the, not the food chain. The hierarchy. In terms of the hierarchy. So it kind of sets the tone. If the photographer's angsty or ratty or moody or shouty or anything negative, everyone else, it permeates through. If the photographer is charming and funny and really relaxed and pleasant, then everyone else is at ease and can do their job much better.

18:37And obviously because of what I do with kids, I find that attitude works brilliantly. And if you're a bit uptight or you're not comfortable technically or whatever, and you're worrying too much about all those sort of things, you won't have that beautiful, calm, zen feeling on set, which is what I strive to achieve.

19:08When was the point where you decided that kids were going to be your niche? Again, like classic me, I didn't really make a decision like this is what I'm going to do. Although if I look back on my life, including work, it's sort of inevitable in a way. Like when I was 15 or so, my parents, my mum had new babies with my stepdad. So us having little babies in the family was like normal. and then I all the people I assisted there'd been like bits of kid stuff through the years and so when I started I'd been working predominantly at that point for a particular photographer a guy called Tim Winter who was doing women's wear again lots and lots of travel and all over the world lovely brilliant fun lovely guy no kids so when I started it was natural for me to sort of follow down that route because all the fashion guys I'd worked for and traveled a lot with were all women's wear so I was like that's probably what I'll do right so I did I started to pick up jobs with magazines publishers publishing houses a couple of ad agencies but it was mostly women's wear and I was like well this is you know it's fine let's get started and you know and by that stage I'd phased out because I went through a period of about a year where I was shooting and assisting then it got to a point where i'm like right i'm done now that's it cut off no more assisting and then i was doing a job for um publicist blueprint who used to be the people that would do asda and i was shooting whatever with women's work for them and then they gave me a job that was like a week of kids my first one and i did it and i just thought well that was good like obviously challenging in different ways to women's wear but i really liked it and you know i suppose it coincided with the time where i was thinking well in order to be successful i felt at time you have to specialize in something you've got to be known you don't really want to be a jack of all trades so i thought well maybe that's what i'll do i'll you know there weren't loads of people shooting kids specifically at that point so i'll do that then yeah see how that goes and and it just sort of snowballed it didn't go from that to suddenly me shooting Vogue Bang Beanie the next week.

21:26I'd been doing it for a long time. Yeah. It worked. And I mean, children are the hardest demographic to shoot. What do you think brands misunderstand about shooting kids? I think if you have a brand which is like, let's say, a high-end brand, and then they have a kids' line, often it feels like the kids' line is very much like at the bottom. Yeah. It's like, let's put all our money and all our budget and we'll hire Stephen Mizell to shoot the adults. And then we'll just find a bit of money to bash off the kids thing at the end. And so I think there's a bit of that. In my experience, I've shot Kidswear for some, well, one in particular, very high-end brand.

22:10And it was a bit like that. But, you know, from my perspective, great. I'm like, wow, this is the best job I've ever done in terms of kudos. And I don't care that they just paid Stephen Meisel 100 grand and I'm getting like not 100 grand. I don't care because I'm not him, right? So I don't see it like that. But if I'm asked to step back and look at it, I suppose it is like that.

22:43what are the sort of biggest technical considerations i suppose just because children have a really limited attention yeah so if you're shooting adults you might think you can get the the woman the model in for a couple of hours hair and makeup and you can be light testing and everything while that's happening and then when she comes out if it's not ready it doesn't really matter because she can like test she can sit down for half an hour or whatever with kids i feel like i don't want them to be sitting around ever doing nothing waiting for me so i would say that technically it's good if you well if you know what you're doing enough and sufficiently that everything's done and ready it's all about the prep yeah i mean you know obviously there are jobs i do sometimes where there's a whole pre-light day you go in the studio the day before and you you know you get paid to set it all up and it's perfect so when the kids arrive boom but that's that's generally in the states it doesn't really work like that in the uk they don't give you that budget no so um you know but you've you've got to get it ready so in a way i suppose keeping it as simple as possible and i guess it depends on the age of the child but i mean how long do you realistically have before they drop off in sort of energy and focus i mean for babies it can be It could be a minute.

24:04It could be 30 seconds if you're unlucky. So if it's a baby shoot, the key is to like overbook babies so that you can pop one in, shoot it. If it doesn't work after a minute, which is perfectly feasible, pop it out, put the next one in. And I guess that's how that has to be explained to clients. You know, it's sort of that client expectation, isn't it? And they're thinking, well, I don't want to pay for three babies when we only need one. But it's like, yeah, but if that one baby doesn't work, you're paying for us all to be here and you're not going to get your shot. Yeah, an extra baby is a lot cheaper than a reach hit.

24:40Absolutely. So that is a real education thing. And again, you know, experienced clients will say, yes, we know that's fine, we have. Yeah. Inexperienced clients or clients that literally just don't have any money, and there are plenty of those, will say, well, I know that would be lovely, but we can't. So you have to just... And then you have to just try. You've just got to do your best. I mean, the thing is with a little one is, you know, pop them in, shoot them, get it over and done with very, very quickly. Take them out. Give them a break. Don't sit there. Fiddling about. Expect them to sit and wait.

25:15Yeah. I mean, it's kind of obvious. Because also, they can be great one day and they can suddenly have an off day. Totally. You know, however much you work with them and you think, yeah, they're taking direction. They're being great. You know, actually, two days later, they might not be in it. Yeah, completely. So toddlers are the hardest for sure. Babies are actually quite easy. Well, at least babies stay still. They stay still. You know, all you've got to do is blow on their face or blow a raspberry. Like bubble. They might smile, you know. Toddlers are, you know, they're a lure unto themselves.

25:46So you have to, again, create an environment where they don't necessarily think they're working. They're just having fun. And be quick, basically. Be really quick. That's my, well, that's the way I do it. Anyway, I work really, really fast. So you're literally all set up and ready. Yeah. it then comes in. And then bang. Yeah. That's the way I tend to do it. Because I think sometimes once you've lost them, it's then very difficult to get them back. It's hard. Yeah, then back. Yeah, yeah. It's high pressure actually, isn't it? So I think what you're saying about the importance of having that calm environment on set.

26:17It's really important. Yeah. I'm not a big fan of playing, you know, the theme tune from whatever Disney films out lately. I tend to just have calm music on, but music that doesn't drive all the adults insane. You haven't got Baby Shark to play? No, do you know what? I never, I never, ever have played that in my life on my studio sets because I don't think little kids on the whole, they don't really care what's playing. And I don't really want to sing Baby Shark to anybody ever. I'm proud that I never have. Oh dear. What tricks do you rely on? What are some of the silliest things you've done to get the shot?

27:01I'm sure there's a few. So I used to have a really, really lovely lighting assistant called Henry, who was with me for probably five years or so. He's out shooting his own stuff these days. He was great. He used to muck about behind me sometimes and make them laugh. He actually gave me a Pikachu do-rag that he found in a charity shop about 10 years ago. And I wear that. all the time when I'm at work. So it literally is a do-rag, yellow, Pikachu, floppy ears. And everybody knows it. So if I don't wear it, they're like, oh, where is it? And sometimes I think, do I still have to wear this? Surely I don't need to wear this anymore.

27:47But it really works because so many kids know it and like it. And I think also it works because, especially if I don't know them. They're probably like, oh, is it we're going to shoot with the man with the yellow hat? Yeah, exactly. And their mum will say that because they don't remember every photographer's name. They might have shot with a hundred, you know. But they're like, oh, it's, you know, the guy with the Pikachu hat. And then they're like, half the job's done because then they're like looking forward to me. Looking forward to it, yeah. And so I put it on and I've even had clients say, oh, it's so nice when you put that on because it's like everybody relaxes because we can tell you're in work mode and the kids all relax.

28:22And I'm like, well, look, if it just does that, I'll wear it forever. You know, it serves a purpose. So there's that. I've gone through phases where I'll use certain catchphrases or little words, buzzwords. But I actually, most of the stuff I do these days isn't with toddlers. Most of it's, I would say, with like six, seven and up. And with that age group, I honestly just talk to them like I talk to anyone. You know, I talk to them like adults. I mean, part of my riff, I suppose, when I'm working is I will really rib them if I can. If I can work out when I first meet them that they're quite, you know, spunky kids, they've got personality and they've got resilience.

29:04Which they tend to have. Because they're modelling, most of them do, right? Yes. You know, they'll be back and forth. Then you'll get the personality, won't you? We take the mickey out of each other. You know, I'll give them a bit of it and then they'll give it back to me. And I love that vibe. Yeah. And sometimes I'll sort of see the parents or the clients going, oh, my God, I can't believe you just said that. But it's like, it's fine because I'm on their wavelength and it just works.

29:32I guess it's important for your assistants as well to understand that they're shooting kids. I guess there's certain things that are different. And if it's babies, again, like a baby set in my baby set should be really quiet. So you can't have noisy, noisy people or people that are not ready. You know, again, they have to be like super prepped and ready. And the digitex these days, you know, they need to be again. This comes from communication with the art directors. You have to get all your files set up in advance and all that. So because with a baby, you can't say, oh, we're not ready to shoot now because the assistant hadn't set the folder up.

30:14In the time it takes to say that, I've probably just missed the one time they just smiled. They're right. Yeah, absolutely. That could be a bit annoying. So you need to basically be like super prepped on it, focused and, you know, and then it's all lovely and runs smooth. Yeah. But yeah, good assistants are great. These days, I'm actually shooting more in the States currently than I am in the UK. And I have a brilliant team there that I just, you know, as soon as I get any work options, my first question is, are Matt and Chris available? Yeah, yeah. Not that I can't work without them, but it's super nice to have your regular people.

30:51Do you work, do you have agents, Ian, or do you do most of your work directly? Like I didn't have one when I very, very first started up. I've pretty much always had an agent, really. not always the same one. In the UK, I was with an incredible woman called Zara for about 10 or 11 years. And we kind of started our journey at the same time. I'd been shooting for a while anyway, but I hadn't necessarily reached a place where I was happy to be. So I was looking to sort of grow my brand, I suppose you might say. And she had just started out repping at the time and we got together and for for a good 10 years we were we just smashed it i mean we're very very lucky uh that we were operating at a time pre-covid which is like a real watershed in this industry like everything before covid was a lot better than it is post there was more work there were better budgets um and also there were less i don't know the market was different and i was very prominent within it.

31:57So we had a fantastic run. What makes a good agent? You might get a different answer with everyone you ask, I suppose. For me, it's someone who is obviously active and getting out there and doing what you want an agent to do, which is, you know, ultimately is get you work. If they're getting you work, they could be an absolute beast i probably wouldn't care if they were getting me tons of jobs but for me it was just a good person who's honest who i have a really nice relationship with who i feel that i can talk to there are some agents who probably think their artists are uh want to talk too much i wasn't one of the type of person that would call them up every week going no i haven't got any work what are you doing you know i just like was not quite that needy i know you've worked with some huge commercial brands, probably pretty much every kid's brand out there.

32:51Tell us about some of your most incredible shoots. Well, I suppose I would name check Versace as being the most high profile one. I shot three seasons of their kids wear. Donatella's daughter, whose name is Allegra Versace, used to come along and basically style the shoots. I mean, when we first started doing it, it was amazing. If I think back, really, they gave us all the freedom. I mean, they literally just came to zara who's my agent at the time said we want to shoot with ian we love his work just come up with something what do you want to do oh wow so i was able to just basically pretty much design the set art direct and shoot it and i honestly at the time it must be quite rare that you get oh yeah all of that normally you're bought in and they've already got their yeah yeah part of the jigsaw but i mean it was i was like this is the best thing i've ever done And it was nice.

33:46I'm very, really proud of the pictures. They liked it. So we got booked to do it a few more times. The final one, actually, they took me to Milan and we shot it at Super Studios in Milan, which I had not shot there before. And it's kind of where all the great and the good have worked. There's massive, great black and white photos of all the famous photographers that have shot there. And it was a big thing. They'd hired in a big-time production company from London to create the set. And there was like a real concept that I was not part of. I arrived. There was a pre-light day. There were a ton of lighting people that had basically lit it before I even got there.

34:29Wow. And all I had to do was go, yeah, that looks awesome. Or try and change a few things. Obviously, yeah. Did you move that light down an inch? That's much better. And it was great. And we, you know, had a great shoot and it was amazing. But yeah, so I guess shooting Versace was a feather in my cap, I felt. But not, you know, not my best shoot. I mean, honestly, my happy place is shooting outside in the sunshine, like in Cape Town, basically. Okay. I love that place and I really love working there. Yeah. And I love being outside. The freedom. If you do a 10 or 12 day shoot, let's say, catalogue shoot on beaches, there does come a point where there's sand everywhere.

35:18You turn the lens and you can hear it grinding and you're thinking, thank God I hired this. It's not mine. Yeah. And you think, oh, I can't wait to get back in a studio and just have that control where everything is sortable. You know, when you're outside, especially in somewhere like Cape Town, blowing horizontal sand in your face and you're trying to shoot a two-year-old hidden behind a beach hut because it's the only place where the wind isn't blowing sand. I mean, it's ludicrous what we've done in the past. Literally that, where you've got windbreaks just to try and stop sand flying in an infant's eyes.

35:55And you're like, this is our job. This is mental. But I love that. I love being on trips. I love being away and all the things that come with it. The camaraderie that you get with the team because you're living and eating and working together for a period. It's just gorgeous. And how have expectations changed over the years? Probably when I first started out, an average shot count on a day was like maybe eight shots a day, something like that. Oh God, I dread to think what you're going to say. Nice lunch time, you know. And these days I've been on some, I mean, I actually had to say to the, I mean, I had to say something because it was just ridiculous.

36:40There was something like 60 shots a day. And of course, you can do that, but you can't spend more than about 30 seconds on a shot. So you've got, on the one hand, I'm a professional and I want to turn out work that I'm proud of. I don't want to bash it off and, you know, hope that it might be possibly good enough. And so if you're ever in a situation, which I have been in, where you've effectively got someone, whether it be the client or the art director or whoever, saying, come on, hurry up, come on, we've still got 20 shots to do, you know, and it's five o 'clock in the afternoon. I suppose a younger me might have just sucked it up and said, oh, yeah, OK, sure.

37:23Whereas these days I will just stop and say, yeah, I'm sorry. No, we're not. We're not doing that. You know, I never want to finish a shoot and not have done what I want there to do. So I would say 99 % of the time we always do. But there's been a few times where just the expectation is just insane. You know, in an ideal world, I would have a discussion with somebody prior to the shoot and we would know what the shot count is. But even then, I've had one or two jobs where I've gone into it and said, right, what are we shooting today? And then get there. And then without them saying anything, there's certainly three times the work.

38:03And I'm like, sorry, when did you? And also, you've got to, you know, you have to adapt with kids. You have to be adaptable. Well, you don't know. You know, things can go wrong and shots can take longer than you think. And, you know, you've kind of got to allow that, haven't you? Yeah. But unfortunately, we just live in a world where budgets are, in lots of cases, that it is not an infinite budget. You know, there's a limit. And everybody wants max value. And they want to use it for everything and everywhere. You know, you try and say to them, you would get much better shots if you shot 20 today instead of 40, let's say.

38:42Honestly, though, I think a lot of the time they don't really care. They just need the content.

38:52Every children's photographer has a catalogue of unbelievable stories. Can you give us a couple of moments that could only happen when you're shooting kids? There's been loads of things. I don't know what's funny and what isn't. there was a time where it was it was pajamas so we're in a studio uh the set builder has built a a room and there's a bed in there real bed and i've got two let's say seven year olds or something and i'm like yeah like really not doing what i said earlier about keeping it all zen i'm like i'm crazy with these kids because they're two boys really fun i know them a lot and i want them jumping on the bed and bouncing around.

39:32So I'm like, oh yeah, jump in the air and then shoulder bump each other and then land. And I'm just going to shoot you as you do all these things. It's going to be really cool and fun. So the first thing they did was jump in the air and one of them basically headbutted the other one. And this white thing went and flew through the air. And then they both landed on the bed and one of them smiled. And of course, one of his teeth is completely messy. He's got this massive tooth. Basically the And the child had butted the tooth right out of his face. Oh, no. Of course, I felt really responsible. So I was like, oh, God.

40:05Yeah. Did everyone look? Yeah, exactly. You idiot. I didn't say headbutt. Now every production would be panicking, wouldn't they? Looking for safeguarding and health and safety. So it was funny, but obviously not that funny for his mother because she had to take him to an emergency dental appointment. Did he finish the shoot, though? Wasted her whole night, yeah. Oh, that's the main thing. Of course.

40:31we've seen a change in children's imagery sort of it's much more natural and more lifestyle and less posed now how has that change affected the way you shoot and direct or have you always shot like that it suits me really well because obviously the the vogue for it years ago was not like that at all. And so when it became more prevalent, it suited me really well because I love interacting with the kids. I guess Bowdoin and that kind of era started that. It's always been a bit like that. You know what? Yeah. So I used to shoot with Bowdoin a lot and they always had this term which has been coined and used like ad nauseum by everyone who all think that they're, you know, saying it for the first time, which is like the shot between the shot.

41:22That's what we want. We want the shot between the shot, which basically sort of means, you know, you just shoot quite a lot. But that suits me because the way I like to work is to very much be engaged with the kids and I'll be taking their picture whilst I'm talking to them. So they're not necessarily posing. They're just, and if I want them to laugh, I won't say, now I want you to laugh I'll obviously I'll say something that will make them laugh hopefully so that sort of feeling that I mean that's how I've shot all my editorials for a long long time and so it's been great and really gratifying to then get a client say we want you to shoot it the way you shoot your editorials because so often like the reason why photographers shoot editorials is really like it's our shop window, right?

42:11We don't make any money out of it. The days where you get paid by magazines to submit editorials are long gone, really. Yeah. Well, editorials, pretty much. I mean, there aren't really any lovely kids mags. No, so most of them are online. And it's not the same, really, is it? Not really. And I think every time any team shoot an editorial, of course, they're really proud of it, rightly so, and can't wait to share it with the world. But the reality is the world, you know, doesn't really care that much, probably, as much as you hope they will. So what used to be the case is, you know, everyone would go off and shoot lovely editorials, being able to have freedom that they didn't have in their commercial work.

42:51And it would be a chance to, oh, let's break free and do blah, blah, blah. Whereas what's really gratifying is if you go away and shoot an editorial like that, and then you get a commercial client book you for that style, which I found didn't used to be the case but it is more these days and so personally I do get booked and they want me to shoot like that yeah and that's lovely because then you think oh so then you know there was a point to it you know some of the best shots are are literally that shot yeah between the shot where the kid is yawning or picking their nose or shaking their head yeah and those shots are so often so much more endearing because i think with kids photography possibly it's the same with adults as well really but you kind of like the whoever's looking at the picture they almost like fall in love with that child like if it's a baby it's that r factor you know you look and that in terms sells the dress and then the dress looks nice because the baby looks so good because they're engaging with that image and there's that emotional kind of connection yeah and kids do loads of random funny little facial expressions or you know what their nose whatever so why not show that in the finished photography and do you think brands actually want realism or do you think they sort of want a curated version probably a slightly curated version because they are still selling those clothes i don't retouch any of my work that isn't to say none of my work gets doesn't get retouched like for some commercial jobs the clients have their own retouches and they'll use it but it's minimal but i don't retouch any of my editorials and stuff so it is quite real and raw you know intentionally but yeah probably especially as you go up up the the hierarchy of brands then it will be a curated version of reality they don't really want it too real and how has social media and social content influenced commercial expectations i think that it's obviously democratized the industry to such an extent that it's meant i mean it's just meant there are more people now chasing after that same piece of pie and you know there are clients out there that are literally booking their photographers for their main campaigns just from Instagram which is fine but that person on Instagram might have it's a big risk well does that person who's put one or two really beautiful images on their Instagram do they know how to shoot consistently like that every day for 10 days probably not so there is a risk and it's obviously See, for someone like me, I guess it's mainly a negative thing.

45:42It doesn't really help me. It means that every time someone posts work they've done and they put the credits of all the crew, it means that every Tom, Dick and Harry can then find out, oh, I know who to contact now at that brand that I've wanted to shoot for. Yeah, that's a tricky one. So it's a little bit about, yeah, just democratizing. I mean, it's not going to change or get better. So you just have to sort of live with it. But I mean, in the sense that anyone can be a photographer, They sort of can, you know, if you, well, I suppose at the very, at the very like extreme end of it, you get people like Brooklyn Beckham, don't you, who decide to be a photographer one day, get given all the kit, doesn't know anything.

46:22Probably an incredible mentor. But given like a massive, impressive team of people that will make sure that he points in the right direction and holds it the right way around. And he just literally has to press the button. I mean, I'm not saying that, you know, obviously that's a ridiculously extreme example, but there are people who are not much better than that getting gigs. But I think as a client, as a brand, you know, what you pay for is the consistency and the knowledge. I mean, you guys, you know, you know light, you can read light, you know, it's all about the lighting, isn't it? It's all about light.

46:55It's all about the consistency and being able to get that shot, regardless of what's going on with the weather. You want security that when you've got someone, they're going to deliver what you want. Yeah. So they can understand the brief and actually... In the time that you've got. ...give you what you asked for. But, you know, there's also many other factors about, you know, they've got to like you. You've got to be someone they want to spend time with, you know, because shoots can go on and on. Yeah, especially if you're on a trip. Yeah. So let's say everybody that's sort of a potential, you know, in the mix for getting that job, let's say all of them are technically competent.

47:33They can all take really good pictures and have great work. So then it would just come down to like, who is actually making the decision? Who do they want to spend 10 days with? Is it me or is it that guy over there or is it that guy over there? So, you know, it's not just about doing good work and having a good reputation. it's also about personalities and you know let's face it just like things like nepotism and uh connections so they all they all come into play um which is why you have to have a fairly thick skin to be in this business because you can spend years and years and years working with somebody if you're lucky and then suddenly not and you need to be able to go okay well that door's closed and And now something else will open.

48:19Yeah. Yeah. Not take that personally. Because that happens to everybody. It happens. And I think sometimes, you know, also a new person will come into a role. And it might be a brand that you've been working with for years, but they feel like they have to, might not be that they don't like your work, but they have to put their stamp on it. Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, it just, it happens. It's happened forever. And it's important to keep those doors open so then people can make it happen. Yeah. Because, you know, this industry, like lots of others, just goes round and round and round in circles. I mean, you know, in one sense, nothing's new anymore, is it?

48:49So one of the, I guess, not exactly a mantra, but something that I do believe in is to just keep going because things just go round and round and round. No, I agree.

49:06For anyone photographing kids commercially or working with children on set generally, what are the principles you think actually matter that they need? The kids' welfare is like the most important thing. Making sure that there's facilities for the children and that they are kid-specific facilities. That there's food and drink and rest times for them. You know, all the things that when you shoot kids and you have to get licenses for, they all allow for all that. So that should be a given. So, yeah, they're happiness and welfare. Because at the end of the day, I know it's like a real cliche, but we're not saving lives here.

49:45We're just taking photos for someone to sell more clothes. And you're going to get much better photos if you've got happy black kids. Yeah, so the kids should be well treated and not overworked and all that sort of thing, which hopefully they always are. It should be a nice environment with, and again, this is the case. I'm not saying it isn't, you know, leaving all the egos should be checked at the door so that when a parent walks in, that parent might have taken their kid to a hundred shoots and they might walk in and he's like, oh, hey, how you doing? And I like, I've known that kid for five years and it's like family.

50:18That's lovely. But they might be someone that's never done it before and they're really nervous and they've just driven all the way from God knows where. and they're shaking, the mum's all nervous, hoping and praying that her son doesn't embarrass her in front of everyone. You know, because you get that as well. And so you want them to feel nice and comfortable and go home and say that they did, because also I'm aware that out there on social media, there are hundreds of groups of parents that talk about us behind our backs. And I don't want anyone to go home from my shoot going, God, that photographer was an arsehole.

50:51or they were really stern or they shouted at my kid. All things that I've heard anecdotally about other randos, but you want them to go home and go, oh, that was so lovely. They had such a nice time and really boosted their confidence. And look forward to working with the man in their yellow hat next time. The stupid Pikachu hat. Yeah, so kids' welfare, creating a nice, friendly environment. And what about photographers, new photographers entering the industry? And it's really interesting that you didn't have any training and you sort of found your way into it and worked your way up and, you know, learnt on the job.

51:29Would you say that's the best way? Should people go to uni first or should they just go out there and assist? I think personally, obviously, like I did not go to university, but my children do or did. If you want to go to university to have the experience, then go, of course. And you might study something that's got nothing to do with photography. But none of that I don't think will necessarily beat, in my view, just going and assisting photographers. You learn what I consider to be the most important parts of the industry, which is the people skills. I also think going and working in hospitality is a really good idea.

52:06Go and be a waiter for six months because that also really teaches you good assisting skills, things that will benefit you and good people skills. And people skills are fundamental to this industry. It didn't used to be the case. You could be, you know, not have any people skills if you were talented in like the old school times, if you want to say it like that. And you could build a reputation as being quite frightening. Yes. You know, people were scared of you, but they booked you because you were. And you were a bit cruel. Yeah. But it wasn't cool to be nice. Yeah, exactly. It wasn't cool to be nice to people, although that's such a horrible way of looking at things.

52:47So, yeah, anything you can do to build people skills, build contacts. If you do go to university, use your time to try and reach out to people in the industry and go and work for them in your holiday times and things like that. You don't have to work for the people whose careers you admire. again it comes back to a lot of photographers won't want someone who's basically looking to sort of you know kill them off and steal their life in my time i've worked for some really good photographers and i've worked for some not bad photographers just really bad people like horrible people luckily only for like a day here and there but you really come home and think that was amazing like I am never going to do that yeah and you do learn just as much from the bad ones and so if I was advising anyone to get into the business I would say it doesn't matter whether you went to uni or not doesn't matter if you got a degree or not and it doesn't matter what the degree was in in the sense that a photographer who's going to hire you to be an assistant won't really be interested in any of that it doesn't matter if you've got if you've got the right personality and you're the right fit for that photographer you're prepared to work you could be 18 straight out of sick form and be a incredible assistant or you could be 25 or you could be 40 and be equally as incredible it just it comes down to personalities and people skills and attitude like for me like if i thought about like okay what do i want in a good assistant someone who's like super keen really happy though just in life like um an outgoing but not too outgoing but like an outgoing positive person who the sort of person that i would happily like to go and have a drink with i was once working at big sky uh which is higher studios in london and my daughter was um doing work experience with me she was i suppose she was 16 and um she'd come to the studio for it she was doing like one day she was going to shadow the makeup artist one day the stylist blah blah blah and um i spoke to the the people that ran the team of studio assistants and i said is there any chance she could you know hang out with one of your people for one of the days so they assigned this guy called matthew who obviously i didn't know him and he spent all day taking my daughter around he was only like two years older than her at the time uh you know showing her oh when we go into the studio we tidy all the cups away and this is where we put the towels and blah blah and um he was so sweet and kind with her and when she came back into the studio at the end of the day he came in you know made eye contact we shook hands i thought you know he's like a good person and i could just tell he was a good person and eliza fed back that's my daughter i said oh you know how was it she was like oh he was so sweet and he showed me everything so i so i got hold of him at the end of the day and i said if and when you leave here and you want to go freelance call me because i will take you on as my lighting guy and i did and he was absolutely brilliant um but he was so brilliant that he then left and went and worked for david bailey for two years and then left david bailey and now works for solvay sonsbo who's a really high-end fashion photographer yeah so he never worked for me anyway he was too he was too good and he got snapped up by the rich and the famous i think it's a it's a beautiful industry it can be quite lonely like it's a it's an industry which is great when you're working and can be a little bit lonely and slightly soul destroying when you're not but overall it's been awesome when you get to a point where you are busy and working a lot and especially if uh like I was lucky enough to you get to travel a lot you really do appreciate having a really really supportive partner especially if you get kids and things that come along because you like I was away for for years and years and years I was like I was not here for for four or five months a year sometimes and um yeah you if you if you've got a partner who is either a bit jealous that you're spending a lot of time with other people or cheesed off that you're not at home enough you're never going to make it because you're going to end up saying no to trips and things because you know you feel bad because you feel bad whatever so i guess this is just a shout out to my wife of 25 years julia for letting me have the lovely career that I've had.

57:37And now what's beautiful is she is now doing very well, flying very high in her career, and I'm working less than I used to in my busiest period. So I wouldn't say we flipped exactly, but I'm able to sort of support her growth, which is pretty cool. Oh, Ian, thank you so much for a lovely conversation. Thank you. Well, thanks for inviting me on. It's been really fun. I really appreciate it.