Lauren Gregory, Director at Crumb Agency

0:02Welcome to the Business of Modelling, the podcast where we explore the fascinating world of the modelling industry. I'm Tessa Dewing, the Managing Director of Sandra Reynolds, a commercial model agency celebrating its 50th year in business. Today, I'm speaking with Lauren Gregory, founder of Crumb Agency, a London-based casting and talent agency known for representing uber cool humans, working across fashion weeks, editorials and creative campaigns. Lauren grew up in Norwich, where I also come from, and first entered the industry as a model when she was young, working in London and internationally for brands including Diesel, Vivian Westwood and Fred Perry.

0:47She then became a PA for Brian Ferry. What makes her story particularly interesting is the path she took next. Lauren then moved into hospitality and became involved in running pubs and bars in Norwich, notably the Sir Garnet, a most gorgeous grade two listed pub. She then returned to the creative industries and launched Crumb. Around the time fashion clients started shifting towards street casting, more diverse talent and authenticity over polished fashion models.

1:22Thanks for being here. Thank you Tessa, it's lovely to see you. Let's start from the beginning because you and I are both from Norfolk, which is such a beautiful part of the world I think. What kind of environment did you grow up in? Well, I was born in Great Yarmouth and I am fiercely proud of coming from Norfolk actually. I lived in London for sort of 10 years and it was there that I went there to study and it was there that I sort of picked up modelling. But Norfolk means a lot to me because of the coastline, because of what I've been able to kind of achieve here, which I think has been very nurturing.

2:01And I've got friends here that I've had all throughout my life who've all gone travelling all around the world and have invariably ended up back here again, which is testament to it, I think. It is. I think people do that, don't they? And also what I've found, people come here for university and stay as well, don't they? They then settle here. So, I mean, often with the agency, you find people come in and they've got some connection to Norfolk. From all around the world, there will somehow be a connection back to Norfolk again, which is, it's just lovely. There's just a lovely energy about it.

2:37And I feel really proud of what it's given me because I do think it's always been a very open and kind place for me to grow up in. And you have always been a very creative person. Did you study art? You were at Central St. Martins, weren't you? Yeah. What were you studying there? Well, I studied theatre design, which is, yeah, it's an interesting degree. I mean, for me, my take home from being at St. Martins was probably the social aspect of it. I met loads of interesting people and hung out in loads of great places. What were you thinking your career would be at that point? it's really bizarre to say but I don't think I really knew at all what my career would be you just followed what you enjoyed yeah I think I was lucky to have kind of had my university days at that point in life because it was quite free there was a lot of fun to be had without all the pressure.

3:39I was also super lucky because I'd picked up doing modelling at the same time as doing my degree. So financially, I was extremely fortunate. The reality is it afforded me freedom and it gave me opportunities to travel. And so I think, and truthfully, because I didn't see a huge amount of longevity in that career I think I wasn't so set on worrying at that point because modeling felt mad and you were just hoping for the best with it quite often you know it didn't feel like anything you could control or for me it certainly didn't feel like anything I could control so I kind of just had some fun with it really and I had some fun with and that's a healthy way to look at it isn't it I think it definitely is I look back and feel really pleased that that is how I felt about it because in retrospect there was some potentially pretty shitty moments if I probably hadn't had that approach but that's the the joy of youth I think you know going back to the Norfolk thing I think it was always in the back of my mind that if the worst comes to worse I'd come back what did modeling teach you about the industry back then I recognize massively how lucky I was to have had the opportunities I did to travel and work with some of the most brilliant photographers and creative you know designers and see the things that I saw but I don't think I loved that industry at that point and it's very much something that I have worked actively to sort of difference myself from with my business because in retrospect it was at times incredibly toxic and I think back to some of the sort of memories I do have and I think they weren't right you know the way that certain things were handled was not right It didn't need to be like that.

5:44It had sort of snowballed into something that was, you know, running away with itself without logic almost. Can you tell us about some of those things? Actually, it's funny because I met a friend of mine on Monday who used to be a model with me as well. And we've stayed friends throughout the years. And she's got, you know, similar stories. She's actually written a book about it. She's very funny. Which one? Which Ruth. Ruth Grilly. Yes, Ruth, I've been trying to get her on the podcast. Well, there we go. Oh my goodness, I had to go through her PR and they keep saying, yeah, we'll sort it out.

6:18Oh, she's brilliant. I love the book. I loved it. I laughed so much because it's so true, isn't it? Yeah, it's so true. And yeah, and we were having a laugh about when we used to have to go to New York because she had a big gap in her teeth, which was gorgeous and a real selling point in London because London was always very like kind of cool and edgy always stood by difference it liked difference it wasn't scared of difference in the way that I think in New York you could really notice there was a certain type and there was a certain body type and there was a certain facial type and there was what they wanted to see and also what they wanted you to present yourself as and we were laughing at the you know at the amount of times that she was you know would go and do these shoots and they'd fill her you know get her teeth and then we were also laughing about the um the fact that you know we'd go around in our like top shop you know we didn't have any money you know you weren't wearing designer clothes or whatever and they would be your sort of agents over in new york be really concerned that you didn't mention that you were wearing like second hand stuff or stuff from top shop or high street clothes you know they'd they'd they'd try and sort of make you pretend you were living a bigger life than you were right whereas in London it was far cooler to be like okay you know I've got this charity shop everyone be like no way excellent you know it was celebrated um in New York and and and actually you know in other sort of capitals where you know all the fashion weeks were you know there was a very you know it's a very kind of like playing the game mentality um which never sat well with me and I remember being you know I remember there being conscious effort by some individuals to really you know um find the right people by whatever means necessary to get further in in their career I remember a girl once saying to me quite quite blatantly that she was concerned she wasn't sleeping with the right people because the jobs weren't coming in and who did I know and what was I doing to get the work that I was getting in.

8:25Who you're sleeping with. Yeah which at the time it's only with sort of age you start to think back on scenarios like that and things did happen quite often on shoots that weren't always great. And the problem was it was framed as being that's just how it is. Yeah I just think about that journey from other people and you know and I was just so lucky because really I'd have been just happy sitting in the pub with my mates on a Friday night. That's where my headspace was at that point. It was just not there. So I mean, it would have been hugely different if I was really pursuing that as a long-term career.

9:03And it's totally understandable that, you know, for lots of people, it was incredibly seductive and something that they did want to pursue for a long-term career. But there was bits about it that were really unpleasant at times. I remember flying back from a job with a very famous photographer because they'd asked me to fly back from a job because I'd been over in Philadelphia doing another job for someone and I had had no sleep whatsoever bundled on this sort of you know flight back and they were this makeup artist was so cross on this shoot that my eyes looked tired and then you know then the photographer came along was like yeah but you do look like you've got tired eyes and you you know when you're like well what would you like me to do about that yeah exactly let's just look at how that's rolled a little bit and I you know and that kind of thing happened lots the constant measuring the constant I remember going and seeing you know going to do those runway castings and they'd measure you and they'd always look so disappointed in you and you just wouldn't do that to another human you just would not do that and look so visibly disappointed that you don't fit the the skirt that's a size two exactly because you're not a six-year-old girl exactly yeah and you know I remember a girl being so upset about she was like my hips are too big and she was in tears and I was like you know it's not it's not that at all and you're looking at her and you're like what there isn't anything to come off it absolutely it's not something that I look back on and feel fiercely proud of being a part of at that moment in time I was just very lucky because it paid the bills

10:44Tell us about some of your most memorable jobs. Oh gosh. Well, I did a campaign for Vivienne Westwood and that was really excellent. I remember that one quite vividly because I'd only been scouted the week before that in Topshop. I thought nothing of it and then I'd bleach blonde and shaved my hair. So I looked like a completely different person. And this agency then phoned me up and they were like, oh, Vivian Westwood's really keen on seeing you. And I was sort of like, oh, I actually look totally different and felt really silly because I was like, oh, oops, I'd sort of forgotten about this. And as an agent, we know how annoying it is.

11:25Do you know what I mean? And this poor person's on the phone being like, well, thanks for that. And they were like, can you just come to the office and just take some Polaroids? But anyway, I went to their offices and then they were like, well, sent me off to Condu Street to go and meet the team there. And of course, they really loved it. Because it was really Vivian Westwood. And they really sort of like, no, it's fine. It's brilliant. We like it. Yeah. Which was so refreshing. But I think that started me off feeling a bit like it could all be a bit like that. So it was a great job because it was creative and it was fun and it was interesting.

12:00And I really loved the designs. but also because it probably started me off with a slight false sense of security that everything within that to do something like that as your first major job major job and for everyone to be like yeah great bleach blonde hair you be you it's all fine and of course that isn't the case you'd turn up to lots of jobs and it would be anything like that yeah so um so yeah that was something that I really enjoyed doing. I did an awful lot of hair jobs over the years, vast. There was a point where my face was in those hair catalogues for every single type of style, which was kind of funny, really, because what would happen is people would go into the hair salons with these magazines and they'd go, I want that style.

12:46And of course, it was exactly the same style of me, but just changed. You know, I'd be on the same shoot and they'd take, you know 25 different looks with exactly the same haircut so you know you were you were sort of selling these different styles but actually it was exactly the same style all the time but they were great jobs because the people who worked on those I always really enjoyed working with I've done Vogue and I remember that being you know really really good fun because I actually ended up doing it with a with a friend of mine anything that was creative and you were with people that you could enjoy being with made all the difference but there was awful sheets that i'd do where you'd be standing on like hackney wick in your like undies and like they'd be throwing water at you and you know and then you were expected to just go and get the tube straight home and you'd be wet oh it's ridiculous yeah you can't believe you do it no can you really for every good job i would definitely say there's a job that you look back on and think whatever was I up to.

13:56Amazing. But I do love what fashion and, you know, those editorials and what those ideas can do. I love seeing that so much now. And when did you start to think about doing something different? Can you remember that moment? Well, I think I've always thought about doing something different. I think part of why I hated modelling at times and I really did hate modelling at times I found it so vacuous and it made me feel like I didn't really have it wasn't a job that I felt I've done you know some jobs in my life and this wasn't a job I felt proud of and I thought now why is that and the reason it is is because there was no element about it that was um had any relationship to me as a human it wasn't about that You were being...

14:46Your product. Yeah. And you were very treated as that. I also will hold quite dear with things that I won't let happen at our side because I remember there was a bit of a time where agents would play off girls because they wanted to get their girls in, you know, and they'd offer lesser fees for you and up fees for other people. And, you know, obviously it all came to roost because we all ended up becoming friends and talking to each other. And you just felt very sort of like, it felt very sneaky. And a lot of that, I think, is something that you can see is stripped away a lot more now. People know their worth and I really respect that, you know.

15:30I think social media has been good for that. Yeah. You know, I remember, you know, back in the day, you didn't really know what a model was when you went into it, did you? You had no idea what you were going to be doing or how the industry worked. And it was very, very gatekept at the same time. Oh, it was very gatekept. So you felt like you couldn't ask. You weren't given the information. It wasn't transparent. And I think, you know, the models that we see now, they've done a lot of research, haven't they? They've seen a lot. They know. They're a lot more knowledgeable about the industry. There was a lot of biking books out.

16:03Lots of making cards. Charges, charges, charges, charges. I think there still is a lot of that. Yeah. And you would, only when you sort of like, you know, get older and you look at businesses yourself and you're so aware of the additional monitors. And if you tried to question it, it would just be, you know. Oh, it's just a habit. Yeah. They're just clocking up charges. They could charge you for anything, couldn't they? Oh, absolutely. And probably. Yeah. And you're looking and you're like, did my book even get biked over there? You don't know, do you? So, I mean, you just get your statements and all this stuff is on your statements and then you get your take home.

16:37Yeah. Oh, great. And I used to think that was really unfair because they would also be the ones shouting that a model should never pay for anything. Yeah. And then actually they, you know, because it was not transparent. Yeah. You know, that used to make me. Yeah, I couldn't agree more.

17:02I've got to ask you about Brian Ferry. Tell us about that. How did that opportunity come up? Gosh, well, I did a shoot with Isabella Blow in Paris for Tatler. And her and Brian were very, very good friends. I remember him saying that he was going to be looking. He wasn't saying it in a weird way. I just was being nosy basically he was like I'm gonna look for someone else to assist in the offices soon and I was like right I'm gonna get in there and do that job because at that moment you know things had changed again in my life and I was was back in Norfolk and I quite fancied being back in London a few days a week I was like this could be ideal for me at this moment in time so went there and had an interview with his formidable head of staff there Juliet who I think is incredible.

17:57That led me on to assisting him with five other people. And then from there, I ended up working on the tours. So I ended up becoming an assistant tour manager to the actual band for when they did their world tour. What was life like on the road? Yeah. Do you know what? I won't hear a bad word said about any of them because it taught me so much. I think my take home, they were always so interested in ideas and what was happening in popular culture and in a way that was so knowledgeable. I remember Brian sitting with Niall Rogers and they were both talking about disco. And obviously Niall would know everything about disco, but they were both saying, oh, I think there's going to be a real trend for that this year.

18:50I think that'll have a real resurgence. and I remember sort of looking at these guys and you're god really I mean do you bless you you know and you're sort of sitting there aren't you as a you know confident young person you know and of course they were completely right it was huge you know all these up and coming bands were doing all these tracks to disco tracks Niall was suddenly doing you know riffs again Brian was doing bits and pieces and and I remember thinking god you're cool like you do just you're interested and you've kept yourself interested in what's going on around you and that is the key right it's got to be about always you know learning and always learning and always being also knowing what kind of is yeah is cool I think that's the thing like he had a real eye for like things that were creative and were interesting and the people that were with him and working with him would do the same and it was and it was always sort of challenging himself a little bit and I really respected that and life on the road with that lot was fabulous because they don't have massively late nights so it wasn't what it would have been I'm sure if I was with him I mean it was wonderful it was incredibly civilised so yeah they were there to do a job at that point I guess they'd have their years of probably doing all the bad stuff you know and you'd do all the you know the interviews and you'd do all the kind of meet and greets and you'd have all these opportunities but it wasn't screaming and what skills did you learn doing that job all sorts of skills because you had to pivot all the time depending on how the day panned out so you know you'd be doing your tour spreadsheets and getting sure that you know getting all the tickets printed out and making sure everyone was where they were and every night you'd go around and put everyone's itineraries underneath their doors and be going around knocking for them the next morning and making sure they're all you know signed in and this and the other and make sure the riders were as they should be making sure the suits had been delivered all the equipment was where it would be whatever needed doing but on a day-to-day basis just ensuring that the you know the formulas were in place and everything was running like clockwork.

21:06And was that your first proper job? Yeah. Well, that ran alongside when I'd taken the birdcage on. Right. Okay. Which is my pub. So you still carried on modelling when you came back to Norfolk. Yeah. So I... Yeah. Now that's, this is super interesting. How did that, why, where did that come from wanting two open pubs? Well, I had made some nice money from an advert for BT where a pizza landed on my head. I need to see that now. We need to see it. It's so good, isn't it? And I remember this bloody job where they had to keep doing, because this was when you used to have repeats. So obviously now you don't have repeats anymore.

21:52You get buyouts, right? But This is the heady days when you used to get a repeat fee per episode. Just come through, yeah. And so, an episode every time it aired. So this particular advert was when, this is how old I am now. This is when broadband first came out. And they did this massive launch for BT. And I remember it was all these things, you know, you may or may not remember it, but all these things fall from the sky. Jarvis Cocker fell from the sky. There was all these different things. Rhinoceros fell from the sky, this and the other. And my section of this advert was that this pizza falls from the sky.

22:26And they spray the bottom of this pizza with latex so that it didn't fall apart every time it landed on my head. And oh my God, this pain of this pizza. And I'd have to sit there on this shoot and be like, right, drop the pizza again. Oh, hilarious. Oh, wouldn't it be funny to have a behind the scenes of that now? You know, to see how technology and everything's like moved. Would you do it now? Not have an actual physical pizza that just keeps like... And it hurt my... I remember by the end of the day, I had such a headache from this pizza just going over. But anyway, this was, you know, I was very fortunate because it was paid by repeats and it was one of the most lucrative jobs I've done.

23:08No one's seen it. No one really cares about it. This is, you know, the thing about life, isn't it? You can... And modelling's an interesting one with that. you know you shouldn't diss the commercial work you know because there's there's an opportunity to do these little things and they can look at the longevity comes from as well it can be very helpful in that sort of way of and then I felt a bit like I didn't know what I was doing with my life I just was in a pickle I was in an absolute pickle so I thought I need to have something that grounds me I want to come back home I want to have something that I work towards that I feel like I have as mine.

23:48And so I came back to Norwich and I saw this empty building and I thought, let's have a go. But yes, that was my first pub. And with that came all the chaos. I mean, why a pub? Where did that come from? Your parents hadn't ever run pubs? No, no, no, no, no, no, no. I was living opposite a pub in London called the Golden Heart, which I used to drink in a lot when I was a model. And I think a pub is a place where, or it certainly should be a place where people can gather and chat and forget about things. And I really value pubs for that. I think they're so undervalued in what they can provide for a community.

24:36And I loved the energy of going into that pub after these mad days, after these mad shoot days, which were in retrospect often brilliant or not brilliant at all, and just go and see my mates. And we'd sit there and just laugh and put the world to rights. That to me, and every so often meet someone quite interesting, have a chat with them. I love conversation. I love people feeling like they can converse. And people having somewhere to go. And I think I remember a lot of those lovely old drinking pubs turned into gastropubs, didn't they? This is exactly it. And then they weren't a welcoming space to just go and sit and have a beer.

25:20You know, you had to book a table or, you know, there wasn't really anywhere to sit unless you were eating. Exactly that. It's that typical journey of everything becoming really sort of gentrified and designed for a certain, you know, demographic. I find that quite saddening and I just wanted a space which could be for everyone really and be really creative so I have no experience of working with pubs but I have now had two pubs and both have been successful. So did you see the building and then think you'll have a go you weren't actually looking for a pub at that point you just saw it and it just.

26:01I saw it was empty I had some money set aside and I thought if I don't do something and get going with something, I'm going to potentially. But you didn't just open a pub. You like really immersed yourself in the community. Yeah, I like to hope so. And you've just always done that. You've got a great reputation, you know, in the area for just really bringing people together and being involved in loads of community projects and things. Yeah, I do feel really proud of what the area has turned into because I think we, well, I'd like to believe we were really a part of that. You know, I did an awful lot of work on Norwich Lanes and the summer fairs.

26:41And my team at that pub are still some of my closest friends now. And we have gone through the highs and the lows. So, I mean, running a pub, you know, it's incredibly demanding, you know, long hours, constant problem solving. I genuinely think it is one of the best jobs that anyone can have for building confidence and competency. and I just think it's such a shame that it's so underappreciated in the UK the way that it is because I think it's for me being one of my proudest things seeing people who've worked you know with me throughout the years and seeing what they've gone on to do and seeing their confidence grow and I do think it's because you're just constantly having to deal with so many weird and wonderful situations all the time.

27:40And at what point did the idea for Crumb start to form? Crumb was originally my friend Natalie, who is a casting director. She had set up Crumb in a sort of small format and she was talking about thinking of growing it. and I remember being really fascinated by this ethos of what this agency was starting to do and I said to her what is the what's the plan what is it you want to achieve with this and I remember her saying do you know what I don't really don't really know but she said if I can just get like an NHS nurse to just get a 10 grand job when she's not expecting one because she's just bloody excellent that's kind of the job done isn't it and I remember thinking actually that happens doesn't it that we can do that we can do that and I was like that is brilliant I remember looking back at my experience of modeling and how much I despised it and actually how much I didn't love a lot of the people that you know I worked with at that point and I thought I bloody would love that seeing the opportunities and coming at it from a different angle because I you know I remember I mean your website was amazing it was so different you know and it was kind of more like a mood board you know than yeah and I just loved the way you know you went completely away from the norm of classic models you know fashion models and how far formed was it when you became involved So it was quite, it was at the beginning and I'd had my second daughter at that moment and I just thought this is brilliant.

29:29I really want to get stuck into this. Like this is something that really speaks to my values. It speaks to my interests. It's something I've got experience in. Let's see what we can do. And so we started to grow it. Because you call your people humans rather than models. What was the thinking behind that? Well, it's something that's so important because I really love the stories of the talent that we represent and hearing, you know, about their jobs and their interests and what they stand for, what they, you know, what really they believe in. so the human element of it is more important than the model element of it for our agency because that's sort of a byproduct of who they are as humans not the other way around and I think that's something that I really struggled with with modelling is I just didn't feel like a person really and that's what you wanted to do yeah differently and yeah but you work with really high-end fashion clients as well yeah we do we've got we've been so blessed that people have taken our ethos and have celebrated it and taken us seriously and we have been able to grow and hopefully continue to grow with that there's such an enormous sense of pride that we get in the office when we see someone on our books land a campaign or you know do a front cover or as I'm sure there is with all offices but it feels really you know you feel really proud yeah you know and and when you also hear something I heard the other day and I didn't know this there are 90 ,000 people on spotlight yeah models need to hear this you know there are 90 ,000 people Just on spotlight.

31:31That's it. Stage one, if you're even getting put forward by your agency, that's a brilliant thing. But then if you get a self-tape request, celebrate that. That's brilliant. If you think how many people are actually... The self-tape request thing, I think, is really interesting to me because I was of the era of castings and you don't get those so much anymore. No. But there's something about me that still sits on the fence with it as to whether I think it's great, I don't think it's great. Part of me thinks, gosh, when I was trekking about going around with my A to Z. You could have lived in Norfolk and done your South Hayes.

32:06Yeah, heavenly. And you didn't need to live in London. But what I think I found most interesting with the agency is it goes back to this idea of humans and conversation and all of the things that I really passionately believe in. and you invariably find that you know the repeat bookings and the work that clients are almost most proud of and want to talk to you about afterwards and say oh I really love this person I really connected with them is because they've sort of met them and got them yeah like the photos are one side of it or they're you know the images or whatever they end up using but it's actually the the person that they celebrate most.

32:44So you don't get that so much with the self-tape aspect of it. I've seen some brilliant self-tapes recently. I've seen some awful ones. And you can see the fatigue in people's faces and you can almost feel them like rolling their eyes when we're like, oh, can you do another self-tape? I know. And it's awful. You feel awful, don't you? Because you know they've spent the time doing it, but you're like, we don't want to send it to the casting director if it's not great. We're missing a little bit of that one-to-one interaction at the moment. Some of the best ones that we have, you know, had recently are when we're with talent, talking them through their roles and just having a chat with them.

33:22Some people who I think are so brilliant, I feel like, aren't getting out of the starting blocks at the moment because I just know that's one of the barriers. And I'm like, if you met them, there'll be a way.

33:39What were the early days of building the agency like? Obviously, starting any agency, you know, is challenging. Well, we started off in Norfolk. We started off here. We were about to move the office to London and then COVID hit. and that was a real challenge because we were really ready to go at that moment in time. Well, in a way though, thank goodness you hadn't done it, taken on a big lease. Yeah, I mean, there is that, thank goodness. But it was quite interesting to look back on because it was very depressing at the time for us all, wasn't it? You were just watching jobs go boom, boom, boom, cancel, cancel, cancel, cancel, cancel, and we're all like oh what's going to happen now but we had to pivot at that point start looking at social media and we ended up establishing our um what we call our social humans board which is our creators our creatives and our change makers i love that word yeah so um so we started to look at how um adaptable we could make the business and and you know use some of our skills to uh get some work in for some of the talent that we already repped.

34:54And I remember a really comedy conversation with someone where we were like, oh, you know that Victor and Rolf campaign? That's not going to be happening, unfortunately. They're not shooting that. But we have Uno playing cards. And Uno are interested in sending out loads of playing cards to everyone who's having to isolate or whatever we were all doing at that moment in time, you know, lockdown and all things, our bubbles or whatever they were, to see if you can shoot some content. Oh, everyone had all sorts of bubbles. Bubbles everywhere. And they were like, can you get some cool photographs, you know, shot of these playing cards?

35:32And we were like, okay, fine. So we sort of suddenly started to pivot the, you know, the scope of what we were doing to influence our activities. And then from that, people actually started to realise that they were good at that. Like they hadn't conventionally ever thought of themselves as influencers. They were like, they had a following. They were great. And then they were like, oh, actually, I could do this. And get paid for it. And get paid for it. So then we ended up establishing that side of the business because of COVID, which we wouldn't have done otherwise, I don't think. And that's, you know, definitely very much part of what we're doing at the moment.

36:08And is that, what, about a 50-50 split? Yeah, it is. Yeah. Yeah. And actually, I think I was really trying to like piece it together in my brain recently when I was at an event because there is something slightly curious, isn't there? I think, you know, when you've lived as long as I have now, it's curious to go. You're all of what, 40? Yeah, exactly.

36:35And everyone's constantly taking photos of everything, right? So you're just standing there, take your photos, take your photos. So these brands are sort of so obsessed with content. But then I was thinking, well, how did that work? Because we used to go to events and no one had phones, even cameras. I mean, that's hilarious, isn't it? We all had like these Nokias or whatever. And I was like, oh, it was the same. It was the same idea. It's a collection of getting the right people in the room start talking about your product, your brand, your label. And I was speaking to a very cool PR recently about this.

37:09who looks after a really big major fashion, you know, a few fashion labels. And she was like, we are starting to think it's about getting people together again rather than content that they produce because word of mouth is starting to really start to filter through. And so where I'm going with that is we're at quite a unique point with the business where we're really interested in who's doing what and not really about their following. or the size of their following. Yeah, I agree. We really want their... Yeah, but at the end of the day, you're much better with a small room filled with people that are engaged and relevant than you are a massive, you know, convention centre full of people that aren't really interested.

38:01Exactly that. And getting the right people with the right brand is actually really special because when you've got someone who's like not really, you know, thinking about it like that and they just actually think that product's really cool or they think that, you know, pair of trainers is really cool or whatever, there's something that's quite magical about what develops as a consequence of that. So it's an absolute no-brainer from their side because it is got to be about the people. It's got to be about getting the right people. So that's really interested me at the moment and I'm quite heartened by it.

38:33And I think people are coming back to human connection. I think we've gone away from it. But I think with AI coming, I think lots of people are kind of going against that because it's gone too far and people are, I think, hopefully turning the corner back round. Well, you can only kind of do what you can do, can't you? So I think we really went down a panicky wormhole about AI in the midst of this about two months ago. It started to see through contracts. You've got that probably. Yeah, absolutely. And you're like, okay, how much? We've got to understand this. But it made, well, it was actually Sophie and our team who really highlighted this.

39:12And I think it was the penny drop moment where she was sort of saying, well, we've really got to be proud of the fact that we base everything on humans. Like, that is what we're here to do. That cannot be replicated by AI. It can't. So actually, there's one-to-one conversations between potential clients, between us and our talent, between agents, you know, in other companies, I think is so important at the moment because that's our survival. And you can't make something really cool if it's not. No. So actually with these brands, they're going to, you know, they want to find the talent that feels right for what it is that, you know, that they're wanting to represent.

40:08Authenticity will always. Yeah. And I think, you know, I'm speaking to so many people about this at the moment and I've either got people sort of sitting here saying, you know, because it's like, well, surely, you know, as a consumer, you don't want to see a dress on an AI. And I've had people sit here and go, well, they don't care. People don't care that, you know, we care because it's our business. But, you know, people just buying a dress of Sheen or something actually don't care what they're buying. Yeah. And I think we probably are, you know, the Sheen business model is one that I find quite repulsive.

40:50Yeah, I agree. So for us as a company, and I think I can speak on behalf of my team, really, we probably are fine saying bye to that. It's not something that's going to fill us with, you know, nurture our kind of brains and our hearts there. So you're kind of wanting to hope that you're going to keep meeting the creatives in the field. You're taking these, I suppose I'm talking mostly about fashion at this point, but the same with beauty, the same with lots of industries. You start to have one-to-one conversations with people and you're like, actually, you're bloody brilliant. Thank goodness you're here at the front of this organisation, you know, and you've got some ideas here.

41:39like you want to support them and you want to keep verifying their thought processes with this as well otherwise we are going to get into a terrible model with it. Having experienced the industry as a model and you know agency founder agency director what do you think has changed the most? I really really loved the idea that the industry was beginning and starting to consistently celebrate difference. In truth, I have recently found myself worrying that we are starting to go backwards again. I will continue to keep my eye on what I stand for and hope that we can continue to keep affecting change for the better in that regard.

42:29Because I just can't understand why we would want to go back to one size one person fits all model again I think it's been proven that consumers buy into what they can see that feels aligned with them it feels achievable I think yeah I think the consumer needs to feel represented yeah to feel connected yeah Yeah. And there will always be a space for the kind of, you know. Bizarre sort of. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. There's nothing wrong with that. No. But I think when it becomes the norm and, you know, and I kind of worry about that going backwards for our girls as well. I think they are, especially with AI, everything is becoming more perfect that they're seeing, more curated, less authentic.

43:28It's about health, isn't it? It doesn't matter whether someone's skinny or whether someone isn't skinny. Yeah. You know, you're watching at the moment with the advent of ways to get skinny really quickly. And, you know, who's to judge on that front? Whatever. You do you. But there is a difference between looking at someone who looks healthy and someone who doesn't look healthy. And I think when it's starting to be celebrated again, when you're seeing people who clearly do not look healthy, and that's from celebrities to models, then something's gone wrong, hasn't it? Because no one seems to be, apart from like horrible trolls saying things, it's not being identified as the problem it should be.

44:17But we will definitely continue to stand by what we stand by. And I think there's enough people who we work with who share those values as well. I think the issue with the big companies is they've got their shareholders and financial people pushing down on them, saying, oh, you need to try this. I also think this industry doesn't really make sense. No. There is that. Yeah. Yeah, but there's so many good people in it. Yeah. You know, doing this podcast. Well, that's why I was interested in your podcast because you'd identified the fact that it was a business. And I think that's often forgotten, isn't it?

44:56I think that people don't value it in the same business capacity as quite a lot of other businesses. That's true. Yeah. Which is curious. Yeah. No, you're right. Yeah, it's true. And there should be a way of, you know, creating a framework where it's done and it's done well, shouldn't it? And I think, you know, I've alluded to the fact that I definitely worked for a variety of different agencies over the years that really weren't doing it well. They were probably making lots of money. But there's surely got to be a way of that being a better framework.

45:33What strikes me chatting to you is how many different things you've done. You're clearly just so bright and clever and thinking outside the box. And, you know, it's fab to see. And I mean, even I was so jealous. I have to say, you emailed me last night saying, well, just to say, I'll be coming from my pottery class. So I might look more like a builder. And I was just so jealous. I was like, I want to do a pottery class on a Friday. Oh, I know. Isn't that awful? How do you do that? Are you really good with your time? Because I'm bad at that. No, but what I'm not really good with my time, but I have recognised now that if I don't do something to get me out of constantly thinking about work, then that's a problem for me.

46:23Because then I start to not think about the things I should be thinking about because I'm going down different paths that aren't needed for me at that moment in time. Yeah, yeah. I become a nuisance, essentially. Yes. So I've kind of committed to this pottery class because I'm too lazy to go to the gym. I think most normal people who are directors of companies go and lift weights every morning, don't they? Or go swimming or do something like that. But that's... I think pottery sounds lovely. It's not for me, unfortunately, because I'll find any excuse not to do it. Whereas this one I feel like I've managed to commit to now on a Friday.

46:59And I like go and just do my sort of hour down there making some terrible pots. So what does your schedule, what does your weekly schedule look like at the moment? You've got the cigar on it. Yes, the cigar on it is, you know, well looked after. So yeah, I'm in London Mondays and Tuesdays. I go first thing on a Monday, come back late on a Tuesday. That works really well for me. And then Wednesday, Thursday, I tend to be working on both businesses. I've got an office set up at home. I've also got an office at the pub. And then Friday, I combine anything that is left over and I do some pottery. Amazing.

47:41I know. And I think that's really good advice to anyone. It's very easy, isn't it, when you're running a business to just be 100 % obsessed by it 24-7. Yeah. And actually, that isn't healthy for you or anyone else around you. No. And I think I've definitely learned over the years now to... it's funny to think I'd have these great ideas and everyone would have to do these great ideas at that moment in time and then we'd all be like off on that one but now actually I've realized and I think that is Covid I do think that that is what has done it to me I didn't realize you could lose everything quite so quickly at that moment in time and it was suddenly like shuttering everything um and and then realizing you can kind of come back from that made me go hang on a second you know what what actually am i doing at the moment um so i try and bring my i my big my great ideas to a monday logically you know and structure things a little bit more sensibly than i have done in years gone by where i would just be juggling things i'm like you i'm like you with my great ideas and i now sleep on them yeah so rather than having a great idea now running downstairs and executing my great idea I'll kind of think now I need to write my great idea down and see how I feel about it tomorrow because it might change exactly and I think they're things that do keep you energized because I do think you should you should absolutely keep pushing yourself and challenging yourself and I am someone who does thrive on probably chaos I suppose so I have always lived like that and there will always be an element of me that will continue to do that I'm at peace with that I'm not sure that the people around me are always at peace with that and I god bless them but somewhere it works so we're you know we are where we're at but I do think now what I do want to do as I go forward is to continually challenge and evolve but not do it because I've just decided to do it that day.

49:53Yes. So part of that is doing pottery on a Friday. I love that. I'm gonna have to come with you. Please do. I mean it does work just watching a wheel go round and round and round and round somehow is very therapeutic for me. Yeah because I've tried meditation I've now got this 30 day meditation thing and I've got to day nine and it's really annoying me. Well this is the thing isn't it? I can't stop, I can't put my thought in a cloud and watch it float by. I'm getting really annoyed and my husband lays next to me and just laughs at me because I'm just like I'm gonna meditate. Yeah I'm not even good on a holiday.

50:36No, I'm not. No, I'm not. I have to be on my laptop every day. I like a weekend holiday. Yeah. If I go for a week, I don't know what to do with myself by about day three. I get very, like, frustrated, to be honest. Me too. Now I've kind of decided that he's just me. And again, that's not nice for everyone around you. No. And you know you're being annoying. Just lie down. Read a book. Yeah. And I can for the first day. I'm like, oh, lovely. Lovely. Excited. Oh, I can do this all the time. And I'm like, no, I can't actually at all. Lauren Gregory, thank you so much. It was such a nice conversation.

51:07Oh, thank you. It's so lovely to see you.