Natasha Hatherall & Polly Williams, Tish Tash Marketing

0:02Tessa: Welcome to the Business of Modelling, the podcast where we explore the fascinating world of the modelling industry. I'm Tessa Dewing, Managing Director of Sandra Reynolds, a commercial model agency celebrating its 50th year of business. We're recording in Dubai today with one of the region's leading PR and marketing agencies, TishTash Marketing. Founded by Natasha Hatherall in 2012, Tish Tash has built an impressive reputation in beauty, fashion and wellness communications. I'm joined on the sofa today by founder and CEO Natasha, who has over 20 years of experience in marketing and communications, having worked with global brands like L 'Oreal and Diageo.

0:45Tessa: I'm also joined by Managing Director Polly Williams, who brings extensive experience from working with major brands within P &G and LVMH across the UK, Asia and the GCC. Welcome to the podcast, Natasha and Polly. Thank you for having us.

1:03Polly Williams: Thank you.

1:04Tessa: So I'd really like to start at the beginning. Would you tell us your stories of, you know, where you were brought up, where you were educated and how you came to be in Dubai and working and running such a successful company?

1:17Natasha Hatherall: I'll start and then we can go to how we met and then you can go to your story. Our love story.

1:22Tessa: Perfect.

1:23Natasha Hatherall: So I moved, it's actually my 15th year of being in Dubai. I'd always wanted to live abroad and I came over 15 years ago to work for the government, heading up their marketing and comms in a time where they were digitising a lot of their properties, like their TV, their radio, their newspapers. You're from the UK? Yeah, no, I'm from the UK. And where did you grow up? Well, originally from Jersey and then I moved back to the Midlands with my mum and then I went to university in Exeter.

1:51Tessa: and what did you do at university um I did psychology which I mean that's a very people subject isn't it how do you think that's helped you with your uh the career that you're in now

2:00Natasha Hatherall: definitely um I mean look it is about you know so much what we do it's about consumer behavior and understanding what makes people tick um I ended I actually blended psychology and marketing then did a PhD in consumer behavior so at the time I thought I was going to be an academic but then I realized I'd still be sitting there today 20 years later in my same clothes um and I wanted to go I really wanted to go and work in the corporate world so that hence that's what I did but um we do a lot of presentations and a lot of kind of things those people that think our job is really glamorous we spent a lot of time writing you know even just those skills from being from

2:32Tessa: academia as well were really useful and why did you buy I'd never been actually I literally was

2:36Natasha Hatherall: one of those people that got on the plane and um just I I'd sent my one of my university friends who happened to be here my CV and said if anything happens and comes up think of me and then within a month I literally had to pack my house up and I was moving here.

2:50Tessa: And was that a bit of a shock?

2:52Natasha Hatherall: Yeah I mean most people would have at least been probably first but I remember that I just had to do everything pack up my house then I was only actually when I sat on the plane the plane was taking off and I remember literally like I sobbed on takeoff and literally for the whole flight thinking what have I done?

3:07Tessa: And what did you think when you stepped off the plane and drove into the city?

3:11Natasha Hatherall: My university friend picked me up from so at least we kind of had someone that We had a friendly face to meet and best advice he always said to me was I just say yes to everything. You know, and I pretty much became like yes woman for the first few months, you know, like accepting random invitations to like brunches and things from strangers, which I think is I say that to everyone who moves here. Try, say yes and try everything. I love Dubai. I think it's one of the best decisions I ever made. And I think we have so much opportunity here and it's a very can do and empowering place.

3:38Tessa: And your husband's here. Yeah, I met my husband here.

3:41Natasha Hatherall: you know I think it's given me a lot more than I you know I ever imagined

3:52Natasha Hatherall: it's a lonely journey being an entrepreneur I found and um whilst you know it wasn't my path and I didn't necessarily know where I was going half the time and we Polly and I got introduced by a mutual friend when she just moved to Dubai and said you need to meet and we did meet and And at the time, you know, I couldn't, even though I literally was straight away, I was like, I love her. And I couldn't afford her. I think she just arrived in the market. She wanted crazy money. And I was like, I can't afford that. But then like a few months later, and then I think we both can't remember who got in touch, but it was like, I can't stop thinking about you.

4:26Natasha Hatherall: And I was like, I can't stop thinking about you. And then we literally made it. I think Karen initially like three days a week. And then within like a month, she won enough business so we could have her full time. And then the rest is history. Right? Yeah. So yeah. And so now obviously Polly has a stake in the business as well. And yeah, so we run Tish Tash together.

4:45Tessa: Polly, what about you? I feel like my story is not as exciting as Tash's.

4:49Polly Williams: So I've been here 10 years now. Tish Tash was my first job here. I was in Singapore before I was here. And then before that, I was in the UK. So I've always worked for kind of big global media houses from your media comms, your OMDs. moved to Singapore for my husband's job but refused to leave the UK before I had a job so we both transferred with jobs but then when we moved from Singapore to Dubai I didn't have a job to go to which was very scary and something I told myself as a very firm feminist that I would never move anywhere for my for a man and always had to have a job but I didn't and for me I really wanted to have children that was kind of my focus when we moved to Dubai and then as Tash said obviously we um we were introduced by mutual mutual friends and actually when i joined tish tash um which is one of the things i love the most about our agency i was already three months

5:43Natasha Hatherall: pregnant i think i offered you the job hadn't you and then you found out yeah so when you first

5:48Polly Williams: offered me the job i wasn't yeah i didn't know i was pregnant and then when i joined i was pregnant and i did say to tash at the time i was like i am pregnant is that okay and she was like of course it's okay why wouldn't you know so I was like great okay and my first role within Tish Tash was obviously looking after Johnson & Johnson because I'd come from looking after Procter & Gamble so it's very kind of easy transition from that perspective and I think there were six of us in the company when I joined so I was kind of very much head of client servicing at that point looking after our kind of big clients and then we grew very quickly after that so yeah so I was a big part of that kind of growth.

6:29Tessa: What made you start your own company? I mean, that's a big leap.

6:32Natasha Hatherall: I mean, I'm still not completely sure. It was one of those things. It was very accidental. So I, you know, I've never really dreamed about having a business. And I think it took me a long time to actually acknowledge that it wasn't just like, I'm not just freelancing at my kitchen table.

6:44Polly Williams: I think the J &J win was a big, was a big step for you in terms of like, okay, this is our first We're not really playing it anymore, actually. We kind of like, you know, yeah. Yeah, I've got to take this seriously now.

6:55Natasha Hatherall: Yeah, and I think the good thing is both of us, obviously, because we both come from big brand, big agency, I think we've always tried to run our business, like, you know, taking all of the kind of solid foundations and the great experience we've got, but then obviously bringing it into our own agency and then being able to offer it more affordably than obviously a lot of the globals. I think that's definitely, I think, where we've found our kind of like... Sweet spot. Yeah, exactly. And then Polly is, you know, obviously she's a, you know, a new business demon. So, no, definitely she's phenomenal with people and with in terms of like selling the business and what we do.

7:28Natasha Hatherall: I mean, obviously we are brilliant at what we do. But I think that's definitely in terms of like when Polly came on board in terms of really helping, supporting, step changing, you know, through really focusing on new business, which is one of her strengths. And then, you know, Polly's been really, really passionate about new technologies, digital content, AI. and so that's something that you know in recent years Polly's really really step change for us as well.

7:50Polly Williams: I think we're lucky we found each other I think we're very complementary in terms of what we love doing as well so I think if Tash had her way she would do the day job for the rest of her life you know the traditional kind of PR girl job. I don't really like people so it works well for me kind of being on kind of the woman behind the woman just kind of you know making sure everything's running smoothly and making sure the team's happy and that we are diversifying as we need to because as we all know the landscape changes so quickly at the moment and we need to kind of stay ahead of the trends and stay ahead of what people are looking for and so I think our evolution into kind of more digital focus content creation and you know all of those kind of areas has really helped us evolve and not kind of not sit still for too long so yeah yeah and I mean you've been

8:38Tessa: here you've seen the boom of Dubai really you've you've been here at the start and that's been from the point of view of starting a new company to being able to build those relationships with those brands that are just coming in or that are just starting out themselves how have you found that?

8:53Polly Williams: I think you find that a lot of people or a lot of brands will come to the Middle East and think they can apply the same rules to what they're used to in the UK or the US and that the same things will apply and that's 100 % not the case and I think a lot of what we do now is we take big global brands that have existed elsewhere and we regionalize them and make sure that they kind of really resonate with the audiences here and that's something I think we've become so well versed in especially within kind of the beauty industry especially now I think there's such a big there's so many brands that want to come to the Middle East so really supporting them in that journey of understanding how things are different has really helped us kind of cement ourselves as

9:32Natasha Hatherall: kind of one of the leaders within that space. There's still a perception that people still think they're going to come to Dubai and the streets are paved with gold and it's going to be easy and I think we're always very very straight and honest with people you know with anyone we work with we pride ourselves on that transparency it isn't as easy as people think it is it's very competitive and you know you need to listen to the advice we're giving you I think you know we've had plenty of examples where brands have come into the market and even though you've given them all of the very best advice they haven't listened and I think hasn't worked so I think it is really really important that you do obviously look at and hire an expert in the local market because end of the day we want success for brands and we are giving advice on that basis.

10:17Tessa: How has your offering changed? What were you offering people when you first set up Tish Tash on your own?

10:22Natasha Hatherall: 13 years ago we were very much pure play traditional PR and even the media landscape here I mean it's similar to what's happened globally obviously we've seen it decline over the years but here you know there was still particularly magazines glossy magazines luxury magazines I mean we've actually a lot of our magazines have kind of maintained a lot longer here than they have in other markets because there is the luxury advertisers still want to spend and see their brands in magazines so back there yes we were very much traditional PR I was there at home scanning all my coverage from magazines on my printer I didn't have media monitoring things like that and then obviously that was just when the whole influencer landscape was starting to evolve um I remember now I mean back then we probably had like I don't know about like 10 influencers you know it was really kind of there was certain kind of even now some of the OGs are still there and then so yeah we started doing a bit of gifting to influencers and then looking back now it kind of seems kind of really strange because now they're so in influencers are so entwined in everything we do uh so yeah so it's a bit more like going into influencers then we started doing a bit more a lot more events for media and influencers and then I think we were probably I say one of the agencies or like specialist kind of social and digital agencies I think we've always been very digitally minded and savvy I think both of us kind of have had those kind of backgrounds as well and we were one of the first that probably had a social offering of all of the kind of like you know particularly independent agencies and then that's really really evolved I think you know there's still some agencies today who are pure play traditional media and I think that's a really really risky place to be with where we're seeing the landscape and we consider ourselves, I'd say, pretty agile and ahead of the game.

11:58Natasha Hatherall: And yet, you know, we're constantly having to re-evaluate what we're doing. I mean, that's one of the things that Polly's kind of really, really been looking at kind of offering and getting our digital offering right. So she's probably got lots to say.

12:07Tessa: Polly, tell us about that, you know, where you think we are with that. And obviously, crucially, where you think we're going with AI and how you think that's going to kind of weave into our industry.

12:17Polly Williams: Yeah, I mean, I think AI is obviously the hot topic of the moment. And, you know, we've been doing a lot of work in that space. I think the good thing about AI is it's not going to take away a lot of the strategic and creative thinking that still needs to go into any campaign that you might create. I think from a pure creative perspective, obviously, there are big shifts with AI and it can do incredible things. But I think the human connection is still very much important. And that's where we're seeing a lot of the work that we're doing. we actually have fully now developed our own consumer division which is much more kind of direct to the consumer rather than focusing on the relationships with media I think there's going to be and there already is a big shift between kind of what influencers are and what people are looking for in influencers we're seeing much more people you know recommendations from friends are much more powerful than recommendations from somebody that you know has a million followers so this year we're spending a lot of our time looking at those more direct to consumer relationships and how we can build those between brands and consumers.

13:15Polly Williams: I think that's a very powerful place to play. I think traditional PR obviously is, it was still very much necessary, but not in the way that people maybe have seen it for the last decade. I think getting coverage in magazines is really just for credibility. It's not really going to deliver against your sales targets or whatever your ROI is. But I think, yeah, consumer, digital, content creation, obviously incredibly important, but also having agility around content creation. I think keeping up with those trends, keeping up with TikTok's algorithm, all of those things is hard to do. And I think that's where we need those relationships with real people and really jump on those kind of trends, do something fun, interesting, kind of, yeah, staying agile, I think.

13:57Tessa: Yeah, it's getting that balance right. I think, I know we've seen in the UK, budgets are going more and more towards sort of influencers, social content, that kind of thing. How do you manage that balance?

14:10Polly Williams: We've gone from being having very specific deliverables to clients to having to be much broader. So when we say we'll get you coverage, that can't mean we'll get you coverage in a magazine. It might be a magazine, but it also might be coverage with an influencer or it might be coverage on the radio because radio is still a very important channel here. So I think it's about broadening your expectations and understanding that exposure can mean a multiple of things. And what's most important is that you are seen across a number of different channels, not just one channel, and that the likelihood that that will be traditional is getting smaller and smaller.

14:46Polly Williams: I think we find now 60 to 70 percent of budgets go on influencers. I think the struggle we have in the region now is that influencers really do understand their own power. so no longer can you expect an influencer to do something on barter unless that barter is really meaningful to the to the um influencer i think brands need to get better at seeing influencers

15:09Tessa: for what they are which is true business people and putting the money behind that and we have that with clients that will they'll book models who also have really good engagement and they'll they'll kind of just go well obviously they're going to do a post for us it's like well actually doesn't work like that you know if you want that extra you that's a separate thing and i think clients only just starting to understand that I don't know if that's the same here yeah and I

15:30Polly Williams: think we're finding a lot of brands want to use influencers as models as well and we've seen a lot of big brands doing that especially during kind of key periods like Ramadan and the festive season and I think the value in having an influencer that's also models as well obviously that is that is strong but you're right there is definitely a lot of oh well they're on set anyway so when

15:51Natasha Hatherall: they just do some behind the scenes stuff on their stories you're like no you have to pay them for

15:57Polly Williams: that you know so I think yeah it's definitely a learning curve and I think how we're using influencers is definitely evolving and changing that being said there are a lot of influencers out there that maybe don't necessarily have the right to call themselves influencers anymore and I think here is very much one of those markets where influencers were born you know we've been doing influencers over for over 10 years and I think other markets have actually had to catch up with what was happening here before anywhere else. So I think it is a very saturated influencer market here. So kind of understanding which influencers are bringing values can be difficult.

16:32Polly Williams: And that's why we have to be very data focused in order to understand that.

16:36Natasha Hatherall: And I think geography pays such a big part.

16:38Polly Williams: You know, you look at someone with a million followers, but 80 % of those followers are outside of the UAE. They're not your target audience.

16:44Tessa: Exactly.

16:44Polly Williams: And the majority of brands we're working with want to focus on GCC. So you have to have that following in KSA in the UAE for it to make any real difference to the ROI. So, yeah, it's a complicated.

16:56Tessa: And how do you choose your influencers? I guess it depends on your brands, but are you looking at micro-influencers for some things? We're big fans of the micro, the micro and the nano.

17:06Polly Williams: And I think even, so we started something years ago, which we've never really fully realised yet, which is something called the Tish Tash 500 Club, which is the concept that the most influential people actually have around 500 to 1000 followers, because they are close friends or close knit community, that if they post something or share something, they must genuinely believe that thing or love the thing that they're talking about. So again, it's that idea that just because someone has hundreds of 1000s of followers, are they really connecting with those followers? And again, that comes back to the approach looking at that more direct to consumer concept that people really want to have recommendations.

17:47Polly Williams: They really want to trust the people that are speaking to them when they're speaking to. So I think, you know, the nano, the micro, the even smaller than nano is definitely, I think, where we see the biggest uplift for brands.

18:04Tessa: If there was a model that kind of came into work in Dubai and they were doing really well as a model, but they didn't really have a social following, but they wanted to get sort of into that influencer market what would your advice be to them I think stay authentic

18:17Polly Williams: obviously is the most important I think it's really important to have a clear sense of self in terms of what it is that you want to stand for I think that the more niche that you can be in terms of your subject matters the things that you're covering the better you will do I think you know this market we have a lot of mum influencers for example that don't necessarily ever have the biggest following but have the strongest kind of uplift in terms of conversions into sales and the trust exactly and because those recommendations are coming from a real place so I think it's really important that you understand what it is that you want to stand for that you seem authentic and don't be drawn into some of the kind of big ideas of just kind of going to events and picking up goodie bags and that meaning that you're somehow you know becoming a meaningful influencer.

19:05Polly Williams: I think there is definitely space in this market to stand for things you believe in. I think it's a misconception here that you're not allowed to have those strong beliefs in things. We're always looking for authentic influencers that believe and talk very openly and transparently about things, I would say. I think there are certain areas like beauty influencers, fashion influencers, where it is very saturated, that kind of traditional lifestyle influencer. So I think it is very much about finding your own space to play in.

19:40Tessa: How did the name Tish Tash come about?

19:44Natasha Hatherall: So Tish Tash was my nickname that my grandfather used to have for me when I was growing up. So it was one of those things when I was trying to get my trade license sorted. And, you know, I was under loads of pressure to think of a name for the company. And I think one day when I was there up against it, I had to put it on my trade license. and I was like you know what I think a lot of what I wanted it was about that being personal I went with Tish Tash today it's kind of become a real brand in its own right and it's like even the last one I'm going to go to like the ITP one of the big publishers here and I'll see people like oh Miss Tish Tash you know and it's kind of I think you know we've been we're ribbing some places haven't we people just say my name's Tish I feel like it would be easier if I change my name to Tish I mean you were like you're queuing somewhere with your kids and someone was you know and you're where was I was yeah I was at a theme park or something and someone came up to she's like oh my god you're poly I felt like a celebrity yeah so I love the fact that my grandfather who's no longer here his legacy lives on so yeah oh that's a lovely story

20:41Tessa: there must have been a point was there because I think with any successful business there's a point where you think oh what have I done when you first started and I don't know you still do

20:50Polly Williams: that every day yeah every day literally what's there a point where you think I've made a mistake Like, I mean, literally, I always say like having a business is the hardest thing I've ever done.

21:02Natasha Hatherall: It has pushed me to the lowest lows. It's also given me some amazing highs. And I'm really, really honest. I think you really got to want to do this because if you don't, and I, you know, and I always say, I have so many people that come to me and say, I want advice and, you know and I'm like if you don't love what you do firstly then don't do it um because you are going to you know when you are literally like crying on the carpet and wondering you know what you've done um you've got to have something that kind of you know pulls you through and even now Polly's totally right you know I love the day job like if I could just pitch clients and be that old school publicist that's like my favorite thing to do and I try and keep my hand doing that as well because that actually brings me joy and I think um so loving what you do also

21:48Tessa: having a great team you don't want people that are the same as you you want people that are good at what you're not good at what makes a great team it sounds like you guys have got that and I always

21:58Natasha Hatherall: say I'm really really honest like the biggest reasons that I love I love coming into work I love doing what I do is poly and it's like the team we've bought like I think we've generally we've got so we hire people that we want to hang out with and we obviously you know they're great their jobs too but we've got a real strong culture and as part of that you know we I think people either they fit or they don't and I think if they don't fit or don't have our values and they don't sort of last sort of very long and that our industry is a tough industry I mean you know similar to your industry and it is you've got to be able to laugh with these people and you spend more time at work than you get at home right yeah I see more and when you're at home you're working

22:32Polly Williams: a lot as well so yeah I think the other thing for us is control we've done a very good job we've never taken investment we're completely independent which is I think quite a big thing to say after 13 years that we've done it all with our own money and I think we are the size that we are and I think having that and knowing that we are in control of what happens to our business that we can make any decisions we want not to say we've only made good decisions we may have made a couple of bad decisions along the way but we've been able to kind of see our way through but I think any decisions we make are ours we are I agree we're the same we're completely independently

23:03Tessa: owned and I sometimes think gosh you know I hear people that have had investment in and so they've got shareholders and they have to have meetings with with people that aren't actually anything not connected with the company and get permission to do things I think no I I wouldn't want that

23:16Polly Williams: and I think having that agility in a landscape that is changing so quickly all the time you know is an incredibly lucky place to be and it's it's hard work but we do love it and I think that's

23:27Tessa: important and sometimes your instinct tells you to do something and your head's thinking oh is this the right decision and actually it is you know don't get me on don't get me started on gut

23:36Natasha Hatherall: instinct yeah we always say like you know every time we've not trusted i got instinct it's been terrible 100 i agree so tell me about the brands that that you guys work with i think if i kind of like go back to the beginning it was a lot more small independent local brands obviously my first client was a skincare brand that was locally founded and we worked with them for over 10 years and now they're in like super drug in the UK they've gone on to amazing things globally and so that I think you know from going from me and the founder sitting in his tiny office in JLT to kind of today seeing it through multiple brand evolutions to where it is it feels amazing to me but yeah it was yeah more more sort of small and then obviously the big thing for us was we got approached by Johnson & Johnson and they said if you do they wanted us to do an event they'd heard that we were very strong at beauty and they said look if you do a good job on this we might let you pitch for our PR in the new year and they I love a challenge and then we smashed their event and then they gave us all of their PR we didn't even have to tender for it and then that I think for us the end of a year in business to be considered for all of their beauty kind of portfolio was a massive massive thing that did step change things for us um and we're still a lot we're still known from you know we've taken a lots of locally founded brands um and growing them many have gone on internationally as well and then we've now i think we're known for bringing in a lot of the global brands that want to enter the market particularly in sort of beauty health living well and mum and family focused you know we've worked with a lot of um you know emma bunton and you know when she entered the market with Kit & Kin.

25:21Natasha Hatherall: We've recently just done Rochelle Hume's brand entering. So I think we're very much female focused a lot for things we do as well. So we've kind of found our sort of space there.

25:37Tessa: So how has PR in the beauty and fashion industries evolved over the past decade and what role has Tish Tash played in that?

25:44Polly Williams: I don't think anything's the same as it was 10 years ago honestly speaking I think like we said it used to be you could send a press release out it would get some nice coverage your job would be done you'd go home at five o 'clock and you'd have had a great day I think now it's such a saturated market not just here but globally a lot of the brands that we work with especially within beauty so you do always have to be thinking about how to do things differently so I think the evolution I think into influencers um into kind of event the event space you know having to be much more experiential in the way that you're putting events together I think the role that content creation plays across the board I think you know we get a lot of brands that come to market and they have all the assets that they've created back in the UK or the US and none of them work in the UAE or in the GCC so you're having to really teach people what media and PR looks like here versus anywhere else in the world so there's always a lot of additional work I think that goes into marketing here because a lot of the time we are having to rework a lot of existing.

26:51Tessa: Sure and why is that is it because of the cultural differences?

26:56Polly Williams: Yeah culturally and I think we are a very young population here in the region so in Saudi for example I think it's 70 % of their population is under the age of 32 so it's an incredibly young population. So you're always having to think about how to not just market to a younger audience, but how to market to a younger Arab audience. So it has a lot more complexities to it. I mean, we're no longer in the world. Five years ago, you know, any assets you had, your models had to have their shoulders covered, they shouldn't couldn't show any chest, their legs had to be covered. That's evolved. And actually, some work we did with Victoria Secrets last year, it was the first global campaign where we didn't have to have anything retouched for the kind of ksa market and that was a big evolution of that but people still want to see themselves reflected in the campaign that you're creating and you know an arab woman looks very different to a swedish

27:52Tessa: absolutely it's all about the brands selling their product at the end of the day and i think you know

27:57Polly Williams: the the arabic culture is incredibly proud as they should be of of what they have and they want to see that reflected they want to be understood and what easier way to show people that you understand them than to have a version of themselves reflected back at them in whatever campaign you're creating so that seems to be something we're still teaching a lot of brands that we work with but yeah content I think is very important in this market.

28:23Tessa: I'd like to ask you Tash about employment law and employment rights here and you employed 70 people that's that's a lot that's a lot of payroll every month we know um what are the employment rights like like is there a good maternity leave health care how does that work here

28:44Natasha Hatherall: it's changed a lot i mean if you asked me 15 years ago it'd be very very different i think um we do have our um mora which is like the government kind of entity which um oversees everything and they do you know they are varied there's lots of processes and lots of things in place to protect employees here you know we do have obviously that some of our laws you know they are different to other parts of the world you hire on a basis of on where people come from that does dictate things like salaries and other things which obviously you know doesn't always sit well but that is where we are right now but i think you know things are changing all the time maternity leave policies i mean i think it's changed just recently but it was like two months I think what used to be and obviously now I mean which as you know like two months is not you know enough time for everyone's people are still shell-shocked from giving birth yet alone actually kind of go back and do my job so you know there's been lots of things changing and I think we're known for because we're a company of all women and we have chosen to advocate from that place I think because that's one of the things that when you know Polly had her first baby and then realizing the reality of working mums in the region you know there wasn't that much opportunity for for any kind of work for women um you know particularly um who wanted to kind of

29:59Tessa: have that kind of uh some flexibility is child care good here polly we're very lucky here we do

30:05Polly Williams: have a the access to good child care here which does help i think i think the expectation on women to go back to work is still pretty short here we don't have maternity leave like in the uk you know a year would be a very long i'm not actually sure what the what the changes have been recently but Yeah, it used to be eight weeks. So after I had both of my children, I was back to work within a month. But there are lots of things coming into place around maternity. So making sure that women have breaks to be able to breastfeed in the office. You have to have a space available where women can do that comfortably.

30:38Polly Williams: I remember when I started breastfeeding, I was breastfeeding in the toilets, which I'm sure most women have got that experience. But things are evolving. I think the hardest thing here with employment law is you need to have a visa to be able to work. So any employer has to give you a visa to work. And then that means the employer is essentially trusting that you are the right employee for a year. You have to pay that upfront. So that can cause, you know, some employers don't like to do that because, again, it is quite an upfront investment to pay. I think also we finish early on a Friday in the UAE, obviously, because Friday used to be the weekend here.

31:15Polly Williams: Now it's shifted to Saturday, Sunday, but there's still because of prayer time, we do finish early on a Friday, which I think causes a lot of issues for working women because a lot of companies don't really want you to be leaving the office at 11 o 'clock in the morning, understandably. So I think getting those flexibility options right for women has still got a long way to go, not just here. Obviously, I know in the UK, there's a lot of work to be done in that area, too.

31:39Natasha Hatherall: Yeah, and we've tried to lead the way, you know, with, you know, with our maternity policies, we were one of the first companies to launch menopause leave, menstruation leave, paid fertility IVF leave as well. So all the things that we know, particularly women's health that were really important. Yeah, we've done a good job at kind of advocating for those topics as well.

31:59Tessa: And is your company all female by design or?

32:03Polly Williams: It didn't start that way. And then we looked around one day and realized there was, well, we did have one man. And then we realized that we were all women. And we were like, OK, maybe this is something that we should own a little bit. And obviously, we're lucky in this region that we can do that without any implications either way. But I think the brands that we work on anyway, focusing on beauty, health and wellness, tend to lead themselves to kind of a female skew. So that kind of helped. But now I think, you know, we do take our responsibility very seriously to kind of support women in the workplace.

32:35And I think that's, we're not adverse.

32:38Polly Williams: If the right man came along, we'd give him a job.

32:41Natasha Hatherall: But so far, it's, yeah. We even have our female driver now. She has her driving gloves and she's, you know.

32:51Tessa: Oh, lovely. And so while we're out here in Dubai, it's Ramadan. Dan. Tell me about that and how that affects the working week or month.

33:00Polly Williams: So it affects the week in that we do shorter hours, obviously, to protect those that are fasting, to make sure they have enough time to sleep, rest, and then obviously get home in order to kind of prepare for breaking of the fast. So we do have shorter work hours. It used to be that everything would shut down. And actually, the police would come around and check that all the offices had shut at a certain time. So you could never be in the office after a certain number of hours or big fines yeah big fines if you were found still working that has all changed everything is a lot more open now I think COVID has really changed that I think the the market has realized that we need to keep tourism going and we need to keep you know everyday life kind of moving at the same pace but you know a lot of the girls in our women in our office um do fast from kind of you know when they wake up to to um iftar time which is around 6 p.m 6 30 in the evening but I think everyone just slows down a little bit which is lovely and I think that's in line with the cultural values of of Ramadan and what that means and I think everyone's just a little bit more time for reflection I think it's kind of the pace of life we would like all the time really happens during Ramadan and then obviously Ramadan finishes and we go back to crazy working hours.

34:14Polly Williams: So I guess if

34:15Tessa: you're all in the office together you're going to be a bit respectful to those people that are fasting.

34:19Polly Williams: Yeah yeah I mean it used to be that we wouldn't eat in the office and we would ask people not to Now, I think there's flexibility on both sides with that.

34:28Tessa: So how do you guys advocate for diversity and inclusion and what difference have you seen since you set up the company?

34:35Natasha Hatherall: I mean, obviously, we are very diverse, you know, sort of culturally in terms of and even age wise. I mean, we say one of our kind of things we say is that, you know, brands, it's like, you know, whatever your target audience is, you know, we have everyone from Gen Z to menopausal. So I think we've got kind of like, you know, the age range, the kind of cultural kind of diversity. And I think that for us, in terms of we chose to make a statement in terms of our workplace with the view that we are so far off a place of equality still today, won't be in our lifetime. And so if we can show that by designing a workplace for women and their needs, that they actually have a real chance to flourish and achieve the same as their male counterparts, that's what we've kind of, you know, we've aimed to do.

35:20Natasha Hatherall: in a little bit of an extreme way that we can get away with here. But it is true, you know, if you think about it, our team, you know, from where we've come from to where we are, our growth, our staff, so many of our team members have been with us nine years, ten years. And so you treat people as individuals, you treat them to their needs. What do working women need today? You give it to them and how they can flourish. Then I think, you know, that is very much, I think, our position and what we have chosen to do as a business.

35:46Polly Williams: Yeah, and I think our hope is that by being in that period where we are able to do that, by us being able to do it, we can hopefully shed some light on the very unique needs of women that are different to our male counterparts. But how you can flourish in a workplace if you allow these women to have these opportunities.

36:04Tessa: So people will see that and hopefully then put the same things in place and realise.

36:09Natasha Hatherall: there's a massive like talent pool here yeah of brilliant women who because there's very little in the way of flexible working or part-time working and i think this is one of the sweet spots that we found we've got some of the most exceptional women at work who they want to work like this around the school hours so they'll come in you know they'll drop their kids maybe they're in from eight they'll leave at two or even and we've kind of designed it so they have their working pattern that works for them in their lives but we have you know in terms of amazing amazing women at their jobs that those companies that are just like a sort of a totally won't look at part-time or flexible working like you know they're just missing out on some brilliant people yeah so I think we really want as well others to see that if you actually look outside of what you think you know there's sort of you know traditional or what it you know you think it should be then

36:58Tessa: you actually can get some brilliant talent do you still have the issue here where men don't like women working is there still that kind of cultural or is that not so no I wouldn't say so no that's

37:08Polly Williams: that's kind of that's yeah I don't to be honest I've been here you've been here longer than me obviously but I've been here 10 years and I've never experienced that I mean you still need to have so I'm on my husband's visa for example but I have a kind of work permit but on my visa it still says housewife which upsets me cannot work cannot work housewife I've never been a housewife I can't even do the laundry guys I don't know how to iron my husband's far more domesticated than me so it's the wrong title but so there are some of those things which on the face of it look you know when i first got here i remember i needed to have a letter to say i was allowed to work

37:41Natasha Hatherall: because i was on my husband's you could drive as well so to start with when you first came

37:45Polly Williams: you used to be more like and i think some of those things because but they're very surface level they're just you know in the paperwork that's not culturally how no people feel how people behave so

37:54Natasha Hatherall: i sponsored my husband recently and um you know so i got a golden visa and he actually has on his that he's sponsored by his wife. And he says, you know, similarly, Polly had, so he was less than impressed with that. So, yeah.

38:09Tessa: Can you share some memorable success stories? I'm sure you've got lots. You have to pick some.

38:15Natasha Hatherall: I mean, there's memorable and there's memorable. I think one of my early memories is like, even like I ended up, I was doing an event for Montegrappa and with Quincy Jones, obviously legend. And then, so we were hosting an intimate dinner and then he was like i'm going to bring one of my friends with me tonight and i was like okay yeah and then i ended up finding myself sitting at dinner next to boss aldrin like one of the first like you know men on the moon dubai is one of those places where i joke that like some of the most i don't know things you can never imagine you can end up in a situation yeah sort of having dinner with these two legendary gentlemen um but i mean so no i mean i think we've had we've had some quite a few pinch me moments right in terms of things i mean even honestly working with a spice girl was obviously a dream come true for me we had to do um we had to do a presentation

38:59Polly Williams: on the spice girls because half of our team didn't know who the spice girls were because they're so gen z and us older ones were so upset so we had to do a whole powerpoint presentation

39:10Natasha Hatherall: on the importance of the spice girls but i think we orientated around women empowerment so it

39:14Polly Williams: actually worked really well for us i think look we've got loads of stuff we're proud of for me we worked with the body shop for a long time and you know growing up uh the body shop was the brand you know you'd spend all weekend testing out their perfumes and all of those kind of things the vanilla musk so I think there are certain brands I that we've worked on for a long time that maybe when we had slight imposter syndrome we were like oh my god I can't believe we're working with these amazing brands you know so we're very proud of the the brands we've worked with I think campaign wise we've done amazing work with brands that we've kind of brought from the ground up I think some local brands that are now kind of big big players I think we take some

39:52Tessa: credit for kind of how they've grown that sort of makes it all just worthwhile and it does i think

39:57Natasha Hatherall: you've got those kind of partnerships as well where you kind of like really work together uh you know it's really really lovely when you see them go on to amazing things

40:03Polly Williams: and any funny stories like a lot of the funny stories come from kind of influences um influencer expectation especially kind of back in the day i think when the influencer world was just starting and the kind of entitlement of people literally stealing things off tables and We had to get the police involved once because someone was just pinching things from the restaurant and putting them in her bag. I think we've had a couple of celebrity launches that we won't name names, but you definitely get to see the dark side of celebrity. But I can't go into too many, too many details.

40:38Natasha Hatherall: I remember when like, I mean, there's really crazy things. I think it was like when even Instagram was really, I think, live and we literally went into a new business meeting and the person made us, you know. be on their Instagram live live stream our um you know which was you know like both I think Polly's literally probably been in the country about a week and then I think she was like oh you know a week in the job and she was like thinking what have I come to and I was like no no this is not normal um so there are some kind of yeah things that make you laugh and I understand

41:05Tessa: when you think of PR you think of ABFAB who's who's Patsy and who's Eddie I mean I drink a lot

41:12Polly Williams: of alcohol so it's probably probably both of them no i don't um i don't think we're particularly

41:19Natasha Hatherall: traditional in that sense are we no no i mean i think those days of kind of like the ab fab world i think you know it's long gone most of us i think are literally working 20 hour days and just trying to put makeup on in the morning yeah i think yeah the days of like you know yeah wearing beautiful clothes going to parties drinking that i mean obviously not going around with your champagne The true luxury really is just being at home and staying, you know. Not being on your laptop for a while is a luxury, I think.

41:46Polly Williams: Yeah. But yeah, I don't think either is of that.

41:48Tessa: Of that, no.

41:49Polly Williams: No, we send the team off to the parties now and we just go to bed early. Yes, that's where we are in life.

41:57Tessa: What other emerging trends do you foresee in beauty and fashion PR?

42:01Polly Williams: I think AI is the big one. I think in terms of emerging trends, I think there's still very much a desire to harp back to some of the good old day things. I think we're still very much in a nostalgic period and I hope that never ends. But I think this sense of nostalgia and kind of keeping, you know, more intimate events, things where people can really kind of get to know each other, the kind of increase in things like third spaces, where you'll have a running club that will also be a coffee shop, that will also be a place where people can kind of just hang out together. I think we're seeing more and more of those kind of things.

42:34Polly Williams: I think within social and content, really looking at creating things like ongoing series and things like that within your content rather than just one off campaigns, things that really kind of draw people in and get them to stick around for longer. I think there's a real desire still for those more intimate experiences.

42:52Natasha Hatherall: I think it is that juxtaposition, you know, we've got on one hand, obviously, we have sort of like the AI and the tech, but I think the power of the human side of things is so, so important as well. You know, we've seen that obviously with sort of personal branding, the rise of, you know, personal profiling and how important that is today, having those kind of figures at the heads of business that, you know, that resonate. So I think, yeah, it's a meeting of those two worlds.

43:19Tessa: How do you balance tradition and innovation?

43:23Polly Williams: Yeah, I think PR is still very much about telling stories and storytelling is at the heart of everything that we do. So I think, again, as you said, it is about that blend. It's about how do you bring in the more traditional elements like Tash mentioned around kind of personal profiling, having a face, a person that people can really respond to mixed with kind of a little bit of AI, really thinking about content trends. But it's about how are you creating those stories and how are you creating connections between people? Because ultimately, no matter what happens, we are still all people. We are still human and we always crave those connections.

43:59Polly Williams: And that's what PR does. it kind of brings all those elements together.

44:06Tessa: I know that you guys also have an office in Riyadh in Saudi. Can you tell me the difference between the market in Dubai and Saudi?

44:15Polly Williams: Yeah, I think there's a really good question because there are so many differences. I think a lot of brands come here thinking that what they apply to the UAE, they can apply to Saudi. And often brands that come here, Saudi is the market they want to go to first because that's where they see the highest levels of disposable income that's where they think their brand is going to kind of make the quickest sales ultimately that's never been the case as far as i've as far as i'm aware uae is a much easier market to enter and it's very westernized and although ksa is very much getting there it's a very local country and actually it's not just a country you have to look at it on a kind of province by kind of province basis and look at a lot more of the local communities, because how each local community kind of behaves is very different to the next.

45:04Polly Williams: And the Saudi woman is very different to the UAE woman. They are different countries. You know, you wouldn't think that a British woman is exactly the same as a Nordic woman or whatever that might be. So you do have to look at it on a very individual basis. As I mentioned, KSA has a very young population. So it is very young. things like digital advancements took longer there you know they still do cash on delivery for things you know they don't trust credit cards and they tend to hang out in kind of groups a lot more it's a still a much more traditional market in terms of kind of things that women do day to day although that again is evolving very very fast so I think if you are a brand coming to the market, you have to make sure you have a UAE strategy and a KSA strategy.

45:54Polly Williams: You cannot combine the two.

46:00Tessa: That wraps up today's conversation with Tish Tash. Thank you so much. You can find more about Tish Tash marketing at tishtash.com and follow their latest campaigns on social media. if you enjoyed this episode please subscribe leave a review and share it with anyone who wants to understand the power of pr in fashion and beauty as always thank you for listening see you next time