Nina Houwer, Troeber Casting Berlin

0:01Welcome to the Business of Modeling, the podcast that pulls back the curtain on one of the most visible yet misunderstood industries in the world. I'm in Berlin today, a city known for its energy, creative, a little rebellious and full of people who just do things their own way. My guest today is Nina Hauer, casting director and co-founder of Troba Casting, one of Germany's most respected casting houses. Nina and I are going to talk about how the industry here works, what makes it different, what's changing and how technology, self-tapes and AI are rewriting the rules for casting. Nina, welcome to the Business of Modelling.

0:41Hi, Tessa. Thanks for having me. It's really exciting.

0:51Let's start with you. Where did you grow up and what kind of path led you into this industry? Well, I grew up in Hamburg. I went to school. I did an apprenticeship in advertising. And I came to Berlin, I think, in 1999 to study. I studied communication and economy at the Freie Universität Berlin. So what got you interested in advertising? Is there anything kind of as you were growing up that what got you excited about that industry? I think I was always a fan of commercials. I liked watching commercials. It touched me in a weird way that I was always emotional about good advertising that I saw on TV.

1:38And somehow I was always interested in it. When I was a kid, I remember once I was talked to on the street to ask if I want to be in a commercial as a child myself. So I did a few small things, I think, when I was six or seven years old. And I really liked it. And from there on, I was always interested in advertising. What do you remember about that, like walking on a set when you were a child? Well, I was so excited. It must have felt big. But yeah, it was big and everybody was taking care of you. And there were so many people doing your hair, doing your... I mean, I was a child. I had never experienced anything like that when I was a child.

2:21It's not like today that kids put on makeup or very interested in hair or anything. So that was very exciting for me to be on a set and to see everything. So you came to Berlin for university. I came to Berlin for university. And from the beginning, I lived together with a former good friend from me from school. We lived together. I studied at the Frey University and she studied acting. So we were living together. And part-time besides her acting, she started to work in a company with a guy that actually first set up a database for tapes from actors. Okay. Pretty like... Like self-tapes kind of thing.

3:09No, like reels. Right. Okay. Like reels, like filmmakers nowadays, but like a former version of this. And I helped her a bit during my studies. And then the two of them decided that they want to try casting. No idea where that came from, but they tried that. And I also helped her there. And then they didn't get along very well at a certain point. And she said, well, I've just come into the industry and it's starting to go very well. And I want to continue doing castings, but I don't want to do it by myself. So would you do it with me? And I said, well, I have a different plan, but I start working with you until I finalize my final thesis for the university.

3:55And yeah. And here you are. And here I am still. Yeah. What was your plan? My plan was to go into marketing. I had done a couple of apprenticeships in big companies like Philip Morris or Danone. and actually I had a pre-signed contract at Philip Morris to say, after you finish, you can come back. And I said, yeah, that's what I will do. But the same industry, different niche. Yeah. I saw a lot of my friends from university having difficulties, finding the right job and struggling to really find what they were looking for. And then it was going so well with the two of us. And I said, well, just built up from scratch together and learned together.

4:40So were you trobo casting when you first set up yes we were trobo casting because when she came out of the company it had a different name and she said okay so now I've just started and people know me by my name and I said well I'm not gonna stay long anyway so keep the name and we can have it so how do you guys work together like do you have different areas of the business that you look after because you I mean presumably it was both just you too when you first started it was obviously you're a lot, lot bigger now. Yeah. It was no, it's a bit ridiculous, but actually we did everything together.

5:15We always had to, had a big office, but we sat like on one table next to each other doing everything together. Yeah. Over the years when it got bigger and we had more jobs where sometimes we couldn't do it, we, we just split the jobs. So she did one, I did the other, But still, we used each other always as a second eye or a partner when we had difficulties or fun things to share. So, yeah, we still do a lot together. And what was your goal when you first set up the business? Like, how did you want to do things differently? Well, we didn't really have a big business plan or anything different. It wasn't that thought through.

5:58I mean, the thing is that I remember from when she started and she said, well, for some reason, people like the way I'm doing casting because it's so different. But mainly it was different because she didn't know how. I mean, she was thrown into it, said, OK, I do casting. She went from door to door saying I do castings and people gave her jobs. and I think like that typical thing what we do today you stand there with an introduction you show your hands you turn profiles she just didn't do it she just had a nice personal chat with the people and then tried to work things from there was different to very structured everything every tape needed to look the same yeah which is gets boring I think you want to see something different and that's going to stand out.

6:47And then I think when we started, there was still, I mean, it's 23 years ago, there was still a big reservations for actors being part of a commercial. It was not very common in Germany. The US, UK had that much earlier, but actors here were kind of hesitant if a commercial would do them. So they thought it was a bit below them. Yeah, a bit below them. and it could influence their other career. But we tried to get as many actors as possible in commercials and it worked. And over the years, it's become a lot better. I think still Germany has that thing with actors, bigger names, good actors, or not good actors, but more known actors that are a bit hesitant to put their name to a commercial.

7:44if it's not like a celebrity or under the name. But yeah, that was maybe one thing what we tried to do and it worked. And now you have such a strong reputation. You've worked on everything from, you know, TV and film to huge commercial campaigns. How would you describe what you do and how do you approach a project? Well, I mean, we mainly still do commercials and we still go through agencies most of the time. We work with a lot of acting agency, a lot of actors and a close contact with directors and production companies. So to get it straight from the beginning, who wants what, what are the needs that we are looking for in a talent or in an actor for the commercial.

8:42And for you, I guess it's important to build up those relationships with the agents. What makes a good agent for you to work with? A good agent definitely is the chance to get a hold of him. It's not so easy. You might think they sit there and they are waiting for your calls or your emails, but it's not like that. That's a shame. Yeah. It's not like that all the time. So for me, a good agent is always approachable, is always open to talk about good or bad and is open to criticism. And yeah, a good partner. I want an agent that's a partner. Yeah. That understands what you're... It takes time to understand the project as well.

9:31And what about actors when you're sort of looking at self-tapes and things? I think a good actor should have a strong self-awareness if he's suitable for a role or not. That is sometimes a bit problematic if you do big castings and you're looking for a lot of roles. and actors just propose themselves for roles that's totally not suitable for. And that's just wasting everybody's time. It's a waste for everybody's time, but especially for them. I mean, I can click through castings very, very fast. And I see that, but sometimes they put a lot of effort in it and they do good casting tapes and a lot of casting tapes, but the brief is so different from who they are and what they can be.

10:24From the start. And sometimes I wish they would have a bit more self-awareness. I guess they're just desperate to get that. Sure, and I understand that, but it's just their time and I feel sorry. Tell me about Casting Base. So that's something that you guys built. How did that happen and why? We needed a platform to put together all the tapes, the pictures, the CVs, the data of the talents. And at a certain time, we tried to set up our own database. So we hired someone to do that. We put a lot of energy in this, a lot of time and a lot of money. And at a certain point, we had to drop out because it was just not going where we wanted.

11:14And it got more expensive and more frustrating. So then we did one or two rounds with existing platforms and tried to use it, which didn't work out well. And then we came to a company which from the beginning we knew would be a perfect fit. So the company now also owns filmmakers and they had a database before mainly for actors and casting directors used it mainly for feature films. But it had all the features that we also needed for us. So a bit like our spotlight in the UK. It's a bit like Spotlight, and we basically have a copy of that, a bit adapted to the things that we need for commercials.

12:05Yeah, and that was a lucky find, so to say. So it was pretty quick then because it was there. We could just fill it, and we use it from them since, I don't know, maybe six, seven years, and it's perfect. So when you first started, when you first set up Trobe, did you have, was it digital? Did you have websites and things straight away? Or were you literally drowning in paperwork and Z cards? Paperwork, mini DVs. 10x8s and CVs. CVs, casting sheets, printing out, gluing on photos that we had printed before. And then sending it off to the client with careers and the mini DV. I mean, I can't imagine doing that.

12:51I mean, we couldn't do that now, could we? Now we couldn't do it to the pace that we need to do it. But also castings were so much smaller, you know. In a studio casting, if I was looking for one role in Berlin, maybe I had 20, 25 people coming into a casting session. Of course, it was a lot of work. After the casting finished at six, you had two or three more hours gluing pictures and putting everything together. And make sure you send the right mini DV to the right client. I mean, we had that we did two castings at the same time. And the expense of all that as well, the expense of that and the videos and everything.

13:26Now we just have a phone, don't we? Yeah, but we literally send a mini DV of a woman sitting in a bathtub to a production company that had wanted a casting for Santa Claus. So they opened the mini DV and they were like, what went wrong? But it was just a switch of the mini DVs and the other guy had the other casting. So, yeah, stuff like that happened. And we have bikes just whizzing everything all around the city for us. Yeah, absolutely. So for anyone listening who doesn't know, Casting Base is like your own internal casting network. So it's a massive pool of actors, models, real people that you can search, filter and then invite directly when a new brief comes in.

14:10So obviously you were thinking when you set up Casting Base, obviously you've moved on a bit more since then, but a lot was still being done. And I guess you having WeTransfer and you were using all of those Dropbox. Yeah, well, we always tried to avoid WeTransfer because we had learned from the beginning that it has data protection concerns and always have. But people still use it and we tried not to take it. But in a time where we didn't have the database and e-casting slowly started, you would have like a studio tape and then you have a good, we transfer from someone in another city and you said, well, oh, okay, I want to include him in the casting because it's a good option.

14:52So we had to take it, but we realized pretty quick it's getting too much and we needed a platform where we could bundle all of that together to present it to the client and not download every. So you would now send a link for people to upload their videos on and does that then resize it for you and everything so when you get it, it's easy for you to view and quick for you to view? Exactly. It's super easy. The platform is perfect. It saves a lot of time. And especially with e-castings coming from all over the world. For me, I mean, I know there are still casting directors who take weed transfers and that do it like that.

15:30I have no idea in my fullest respect for them how they do it. I couldn't. Well, because videos come over all different sizes and different lengths and it just must take hours to download everything. Yes, I have no clue how that works. But yeah, with the platform and the database, it's just it's brilliant. I think for us, it works perfectly.

15:56tell me about some of the work that's kind of cast in germany that that you work on does it tend to be more commercial or well it's mainly commercial we don't do too much high fashion i mean with the possibility of e-casting over the world all over the world um it has become a bit more of the fashion and the very extremely high model standards because Germany itself, I mean, we have good models, but I still feel like the upper model world is still outside of Germany. And yeah, we do mainly commercials, mainly actors, mainly people, talents, everybody from everywhere. And it's coming from all over the world, especially if we do also now a lot for Eastern Europe, where a lot of international production go.

16:57It's cheaper to produce than in the States or somewhere else. And they lack a lot of diversity for international clients. So that's when we do castings also in Berlin or Europe-wide.

17:19have you seen budgets chai definitely they have shrunk i feel they have shrunk um we are still trying to keep it for the normal tv or print stuff to keep it at a good amount and it doesn't go lower base rate for buyouts. But still, day fees have shrunk and also all the social media, only online. They want a lot for their money now. They want a lot for their money. And yeah, I feel it shrunk, yeah. Yeah. And since Brexit, do you know anything about the UK? How has that affected you with using talent from the UK? That didn't affect us at all, to be honest. I really like working with UK talents. I love Spotlight.

18:10I think you get a lot of very good actors for commercials there. Spotlight makes it very easy to find them. They do absolute brilliant e-castings. and I haven't felt any Brexit after Brexit difference working with UK. Of course, if you send them to a couple of countries, okay, visa-wise, sometimes it's a bit more difficult, it takes a bit more time, but no, I'm very happy with the way we still work together. One thing in the UK is how much casting's changed since COVID. You know, almost everything's now done through self-tape or through Zoom. In-person castings have pretty much gone. Has the same thing happened in Germany?

18:58Definitely. It's absolutely the same here. And I find it probably as sad as you do because I loved it. I loved studio casting. I loved the energy. I loved the house full of actors that came to the casting, that set here that you could work with. And we moved right in COVID times. we had to change offices and we used to have three casting studios. So when we moved in COVID times, we were reducing space a bit and we were like, oh, we only have two studios now. Would that work? But it showed that after COVID and the lengths that COVID took and brought so much change, we hardly use our studios now.

19:42I mean, I try to put in studio castings as often as possible, obviously for older people and for kids, because it's difficult for them. It's difficult for older people to do self-tapes, even though they also learn. I think, you know, you could have someone fantastic, but if they're not doing a good self-tape, they're not kind of coming across and it has made it. It's been great for some people and not great for others, I think. I guess from your point of view with casting, it's meant that you can consider people from all over that perhaps wouldn't have been able to get in for the casting. Sure, sure.

20:18Yeah, there's pros and cons, I guess. Of course, geographically, I mean, we could reach people everywhere with every request and they send in self-tapes. It's great. But I miss that person-to-person contact. And of course, do you… You get to know people more. You get to know people. You get a chemistry, you know what you can get out of them. I mean, kids especially, you have no idea casting a kid online, what will happen if you bring it to a set. Because, of course, the parents that instruct them, they are open, they are not shy with the parent in the room. But what happens then? Yeah, you need to meet the parent or the chaperone or whoever's bringing the child, especially with younger children.

21:04Yes. And you have to see what happens if you bring it. I mean, how many times have I done studio casting? We're very confident. Parents come in with their kids and say, oh, my kid's going to do a great job. But the kids just don't. They don't want to do it. And, you know, if they're self-taping at home in their bedroom, of course, they're comfortable. You know, the minute they're walking into a big set with people they don't know. And as an agency, we represent children as well. It's so important. We never take anybody on just from a video because you need to see them walk into a room full of strangers and see how the parent handles that as well.

21:36If the child isn't working so well, you need a parent to be just right. You know, they can't be too overbearing. They need to know when to step back and let the creative director get on with it. or the photographer or the, you know, filming and when to actually get involved. And I think that's an art, really, to understand how it works. But with self-tapes nowadays... You don't get that. You don't get that. And people choose kids from self-tapes. And it works most of the time, but it's a bit unpredictable. Do you still have in house castings? Yes, we still do studio casting. It's just that also the expectations of the client has changed.

22:14So like I said before, 25 people per roll forecasting, I still feel is a lot. But now they're used to receiving so many more options because tapes come in from everywhere.

22:32What makes a good self-tape stand out to you? Well, good soft tape definitely has a technical standard that works. So good light, good camera. I mean, it doesn't have to be perfect, but I think with iPhones nowadays or whatever, it's pretty easy to find a space in your apartment where you can find good light and do a proper video. Tidy background, I always think. Yeah, well, tidy backgrounds. I have seen so many backgrounds and apartments where you wonder, is that really what they want to show me? Make your bed. Yeah, make your bed, do your dishes, whatever. But I mean, it's just if the tape, if the person is good and he stands in his messy kitchen, I'm also happy with it.

23:25It's more that you can see the person properly, that it has a good sound and that the light is so that it's not looking like someone in the dark. And then is it the confidence, warmth? Is there a spark that you see? I guess it depends what you're casting for. Definitely. I think it's a package. For me, it's the energy that a person brings within the first few seconds. So I switch on a tape and the energy that sparks me, someone that's really there and you see a confidence. Yeah, also confidence. And then, well, depending on what you're looking for, it's only about beauty. It needs to be certain look.

24:07But if it's about acting, of course, I look deeper into the tape and I try to see what I'm looking for, to see a moment of the script that gives me an idea is that a person that can take directions that know how to show emotions. Yeah. And when you're casting a lot of the time, do you have a picture or a feel of that person in your mind and you'll suddenly see a tape and you'll think, yeah, that's it? Or is it a little bit more until you see the right person? Well, I think you have a picture in your head of what you're looking for. There's so many moods to a director's interpretation. There's so many words of what they're looking for.

24:50So I think you have a picture in your head. But looking at tapes, it can be somebody totally different if it's within the range. And if he or she brings something to the video that attracts me, and I couldn't really say it's very different about from project to project. I also like to include them in the mix because sometimes it's a big surprise. And sometimes does your client choose somebody that is a bit of left field that you wouldn't have thought they would? Or do they tend to go with the person, the people that you think are right? So and so. I mean, a lot of times, to be honest, they choose someone where I knew it was going to be him or her because they were so good.

25:39But especially with the huge castings and when it comes more to looks and not acting, it's unpredictable. Yeah, yeah. And sometimes it must be frustrating that you think someone's perfect. And then you think, oh, that person would have been much better. Also, sometimes I feel so bad because somebody produced a perfect casting tape with so much creativity and... And you just think that's a no-brainer. ...have so much effort in it. And you think they have to take that person and then they go for someone random and you're like, oh, no, why? And then, I mean, we still try also sometimes to sell people in because also directors...

26:22Well, because you want the final thing to be as good as possible. And also sometimes with the amount of people that they have to look in, I think they also oversee something. Yes. So they see maybe the first three tapes, they fall in love with the first person and then they are blocked for the rest. For the rest. Yeah. When I feel they oversaw someone that is really, really good, I try to put my word in and say, have a second look at another person.

26:58Tell me how the conversation around diversity has evolved in Germany. Are there agencies now representing people with sort of visible differences? Well, it has grown. It is, of course, also here come to a point where people ask for more diversity in their films than 10 years ago. I mean, briefs 10 years ago basically were all the same. And nobody ever looked for diversity. I mean, Berlin had that typical thing of a Berlin hipster. And in every brief, there was a typical Berlin hipster. And it was not PUC. It was not with queer. It was not. And it's become better because actually now they require diversity.

27:45They want to see diversity in a casting and they book diversity. But still, in Germany, compared to international productions, I feel it's still small. Right. And it's sometimes more on paper than in reality. Yeah. So they ask for that. They're just doing it to check a box sometimes. To check a box. Yeah. We've done that. Look for diversity. And in the end, who is booked is not diverse in any sense. Yeah. And international productions, I feel it's really more an aim to have them in the commercial. I feel that UK, for example, is much more advanced with, for example, disabled people. There are a lot of agencies that have that.

28:35Here, it's very, very small. Yeah. It's very small. It's not easy to find here. And then social media most of the time works better than going through agencies. Yeah. Yeah. They don't have them or they don't have a choice? They don't have them. We have to talk about AI because obviously this is the conversation everyone in our world and industry, every industry is having now. So in the UK, we're now seeing clients adding AI clauses to contracts, wording that lets them use images or footage beyond the agreed campaign. Some agencies in the UK are just refusing outright, which I understand. But obviously, I think a lot of freelancers, though, on the other side will sign anything to sort of get the job.

29:22So I think there must be a middle ground. Are you seeing this in Germany as well? Yes, I see the same. And what you say with the middle ground is absolutely what needs to happen. It needs to be more transparent. It needs to be more clarified. And we have the same thing. I mean, I'm still trying to figure out what to do, what to take, which jobs can I offer? and what can I ask the talent and the agents to sign? And also the contracts are coming through. They're sort of 10-page tiny print contracts and you're having to find that. They hide those clauses are in there. Yes, yes, definitely. Mostly I work with production companies that I have known for many, many years.

30:04And I feel that they try to be very transparent and of course they are also only giving what their client wants. ask them. So I'm trying to be in a good contact and in an open conversation with the production companies and also with agents, because I also sometimes can give them a yes or no. Talents want to work, talents want to work, want to earn money. And this is sometimes if you don't have an agent, you agree much faster to something where in the end it comes to your own individual detriment or yeah yeah damage your future stuff and I think you know we've got to be realistic you know this isn't going to go away it's going to get bigger and bigger and it has so many opportunities and we have to see that and we have to take take it to advantage because it can help us in many ways but when it comes to acting and comes to models it's a difficult field and I think It just needs an open conversation.

31:08If everyone gives their work away for nothing, then we're going to shrink our own industry, aren't we? So it's really, I think it is so up in the air. It's important that we're trying to learn as much as we can about it and trying to bring the industry together to maybe get those clauses more standardized. Yes. And there is still, I mean, there is still no, I mean, we have Velma lists or lists that regulate buyouts and everything. And I'm also in a committee where we're trying to develop the Velma list or however it's called now, producers list with buyouts to integrate more of the new terms, to integrate more of the new versions and forms of advertising so that it's clear to everyone because productions or clients come along and they think, well, this is not big.

31:57It's just something small where we also add the footage. But it is money. And they try to squeeze in things secretly everywhere. Yeah, or they'll try and get the talent to sign something different on set. You know, oh, yeah, your agency's seen that. And it's like, no, don't. He's saying don't sign anything unless you know. But it's very difficult because we can't just block everything. But, yeah, we need to try and find a good middle ground that everyone's happy with. That is definitely the way to go.

32:34So you must have worked on so many memorable jobs over the years. Can you tell me a few of your favourites? There are things that stick to my mind and that I remember. And it's mostly the productions or the jobs where it's a special task, special person to find that's not basically a woman, 35, brown hair. Something a bit different. Something a bit different. Like I said, someone with a special skill, someone with a disability and older. I remember we needed to find a lady that was over 100 years. So on passport being over 100 years, she needed to be in a certain region in Germany. She needed to have a garden and special.

33:23So, of course, things like that where it's about the people. It's always where it's about the people and about special people. And also making those people that sometimes don't even have anything to do with the industry come to a new world and being grateful for it. And learn something new to their life, which they cherish forever. I think that's the project that stick with me. You must have funny and chaotic moments that at the time you're dying, but then afterwards you're looking back and laughing at. Can you tell me anything? I was thinking about that before and the story came to my mind, which really is such a long time ago.

34:09I think it was one of our first castings, actually, that we did in the studio. And we were to find like, what's the word? God that works in a museum, like a person that is in a museum at night and watches all the paintings like a guy on night shift. And every time the people left the museum, he slid over the freshly cleaned floors. Polished floors. So we thought, okay, how can we do that in a studio where you can't slide because the floor doesn't give that? So we like bought a huge plastic foil that we put in the whole studio and we put water and soap because we thought, well, make it real. So people slipped and slided and everything was fine.

35:04And of course, somebody tripped or fell, but nothing spectacular. And then came this one guy and he like totally crashed on the floor and he was laying there. We were, oh, are you okay? And he said, yeah, yeah, everything is good. No worries. It's all good. And we were a bit, I'm not so sure if he was really good. So it turns out the next morning, my partner calls me. She said, you cannot imagine what happened. The guy is my neighbor. He came out of my house and he was actually, he couldn't walk. Oh, no. He was limping so hard because, yeah, well, actually, he obviously hurt himself. Did he get the job?

35:44No, he didn't. Oh. No, we didn't. But there were a couple of times where we really tried to make things authentic that went a bit over the top and in the end a bit wrong. But this is one I will never forget. What about the worst self-tape you've ever had? Oh, God. I don't know. I see a lot of brilliant self-tapes where people basically shoot the whole film and you look at it and you think, okay, that's it. When you're done, use that because it's perfect. But of course, I mean, in every casting, there's at least one self-tape where you just sit there. And then again, my partner and I, we sit next to each other.

36:31I call her, I say, okay, come sit with me because you have to see that. I have no idea what's happening. And basically it's people that you see they tried to follow the script or they have read the casting instructions. So there is a bit of it there. But they completely make up new scenes, which sometimes are so weird that it just leaves you speechless. I mean, it's funny and it's hilarious. It's a good. And it makes your day a little bit more entertaining. It makes the day a lot more entertaining.

37:06I love my job still. I mean, it's stressful sometimes, but we are lucky to really work with a lot of very, very nice people and easygoing, friendly people. Every day is different, even though we do the same thing with the variety of castings we look at. It's always entertaining. then of course it makes me, I have my best friend working with me together. So that's also every day something I like coming to. Has it always, I guess anyone running a business can't possibly say it's always been plain sailing. Was there any point in time where you just thought, we just can't do this? Well, we were very lucky to have that easy sailing for a very, very, very long time so um i'm grateful for that well we never really had the thought can that change at a certain time but i must say that after covid and the war in ukraine we also had i think beginning last year a time where it was just less i mean we were still working just put big things on hold didn't they things were put on hold and um we also struggled we struggled and said okay what's next but then somehow the pace picked back up and now it's running well again

38:46looking ahead what excites you most about where casting is going well i hope it's going back to studios well i feel that that clients also even though they they appreciate the amount of casting tapes coming in they start seeing that directing is a big thing for castings and even there are good casting tapes but a lot of them lack that certain finger that a casting director can put into the audition. And that's why we are here. We are not, sometimes I feel like a sorting machine, just putting tapes, good, bad, good, bad, good, bad, and not being able to interact with. But from their point of view, you know, time is money at the end of the day, and you're going to do that process so much quicker than anybody else that doesn't do it all the time.

39:42And you know what you're looking for. I think I'm the fastest casting tapes watcher ever. I mean, sometimes for one role, I need to look at 200 casting tapes and I look at them all. I promise each tape gets a chance because I feel bad. I mean, and of course I'm worried sometimes where this all will go, but I'm a positive thinker. And I think acting the way we want to see it in a commercial and the closeness to the client to have a real person in the film is still a thing and I have never seen it done in a way where you say oh that's a perfect AI version and I don't see it it's not here yet but I wonder I mean not being uh unfriendly but you and me we are old yeah in the industry that's true and when I watch my daughters the the standard of what they find beautiful and what they like on social media it worries me I'm thinking what did I bring to their plate that they have this sense of beauty and everything is so artificial and is so unreal but they don't see she just doesn't see it she finds it's perfect so that worries me a bit that the generation is not...

41:08It's different to us. It's different to what we like and what we find important for a brand. I guess our parents would say that about us, wouldn't they, and grandparents about every generation. Yeah, every generation. And I don't want to see in a brand an IA person. No, I don't, no. I want to relate to that person. I find it important. I couldn't imagine any other. But I wonder if that's just a small period of time where kids see it like that and they will come back to a... I think everything does just come around, doesn't it? And I wonder, I hope, I hope it kind of makes us go the other way. Let's use AI for where it's great, where it can help us, but still keep that connection.

41:51And I think there was a time where everyone was trying to automate everything. I mean, they still are. And I find that really sad that you say trying to get agents to be responsive. I mean, that is our biggest thing is being completely picking up the phone on the first or second ring and getting to know our clients and speaking to our talent. Yeah, but maybe that's a UK thing. I don't think agents even use phones.

42:24what's been one of your proudest casting moments a project that's really stuck with you to be honest this the proudest moment it's a bit superficial but we used to do a feature film for a big Hollywood studio. And of course, the moment someone called you and said, I'm calling from LA and I'm in this big studio and we want to do a casting with you for a feature film that is shot here in Germany, that was a big wow. I mean, you never expect that. I mean, we have come from commercials to doing a pretty much feature films and also TV series, which is a good addition. and I think it virtualizes mutually.

43:11It's a good combination, but I never expected that big of a call that somebody would reach out to us because there are famous feature film casting agencies all over Germany. So that was a big surprise, of course, when that happened. And yeah, it made me... It's nice to do something on the other side. Yeah, it was nice. Yeah. And on the flip side, What's been the toughest part of the job for you? The industry has a lot of people with huge egos and the ability to put stress onto you. So I needed a long time to learn that this job is relevant and it's a good job, but we are not saving lives. This is what we say.

44:04And it's not a heart surgery. So, and when I was younger, of course, I took in that pressure instantly. So it made me, someone said, you have to find a 100-year-old lady for tomorrow and she needs to have this and this. And I tried everything and I was so nervous and I thought, oh God, how am I going to do this? And over the years, I realized things take time and you need the time and I need the time to be given to find someone. I'm not a magician. So I think we work fast, but not everything is possible. And I think to learn to sit back after a call with a person like that and breathe and say, OK, I'm going to do the best I can, but I can only do what I can do in a day.

44:53And you have to live with it.

44:59And for anyone wanting to go into casting, what would you say they need? I think you need a good sense of or a good feeling of a script and the demands that a director has in a film, in a person. You have to see that. I think you need strong nerves. You need a certain pace, maybe, because it's a fast going. going. Yeah, it's not a nine to five job either, is it? You have to be able to work when the client needs you to. Definitely. And I think you also need to be brave. You need to be open to different ideas, to different thoughts. And sometimes, I mean, you can't flip around a script but have your own vision of something and try to integrate it in the casting maybe

46:08so Nina this has been a really insightful conversation thank you so much for joining me it was time went by so fast talking to you can't imagine we're done already

46:23so for anyone that wants to find out more you can visit troba-casting.de or look up casting base thanks for listening to the business of modeling from berlin i'm tessa dewing and i'll see you next time