Sally Andrews, Casting Director

0:04Welcome to the Business of Modeling, the podcast where we explore the fascinating world of the modelling industry. I'm Tessa Dewing, Managing Director of Sandra Reynolds, a commercial model agency celebrating its 50th year of business. Today is our second festive episode recording from the SR offices with a live audience. I'm joined today by a casting director whose work spans commercials, fashion and digital campaigns for worldwide brands and who have seen every version of self-tape, from the brilliant to the utterly chaotic. We're going to talk about how talent is chosen and what they can do to really stand out.

0:53Please welcome, everybody, Sally Andrews. Hi. Thanks for having me. From your voice just then, I think everyone can tell you aren't round from these parts. No. I'm from the other side of the world. Yeah. So tell us your story. So I'm originally from a tiny suburb outside of Wellington. I had a lovely upbringing. I moved to London after university. So that was 2012. Why London? Yeah. Good question. More opportunities. I really wanted to get into casting. So this was an early dream of yours. Yeah. Yeah. I studied film and media and theatre at university because I wanted to get into the industry.

1:40But casting was always my goal. And luckily, I managed it. I don't know how, but I got there. So where did that inspiration come from to be involved in the other side of the camera? I've come from a kind of theatrical family. And I acted as a child. So I would go to auditions and I always saw the other person on the other side of the camera and thought they looked cool. They always had really cool outfits on. I want to be them when I grow up. So yeah, that was the goal. So what did you do? Tell us about some of your jobs that you did when you were a child. Oh, I knew you were going to ask that.

2:14I don't tell anyone this. No, I did a couple of TV programs and a film when I was much younger, like child actor. I think we want to know a bit more about that, don't we, team? Oh my god. So my partner who I've been with for three and a bit years still hasn't even seen the trailer of the film that I'm in so I can't believe I'm actually saying this out loud now. Yuck. Yeah I was in a the main character in a film when I was 11 so I had to take 16 weeks off of school and move to Auckland and yeah but that's how I kind of got into the industry. So you just really loved the process, saw how it all worked and liked to be.

2:56Yeah. I was like, yeah, this is fantastic. Turns out I couldn't really act. So it was just, I was a child and I could follow instructions. So what was it called, Sally? Oh my God. It's called Her Majesty. Perfect. It's a New Zealand film. Okay. So they're all now on Google trying to find it. Yeah. Thank you so much for that, Tessa. I really appreciate it. It's exciting. Not many kids can say they've been in a film and had to skip school for 16 weeks. It was fantastic. It was, yeah, it was really cool. I was so lucky. I only got, I had an agent, but I only got an agent because I went along with my auntie who was babysitting me, who was putting my little cousin on the books because she was beautiful.

3:39Alice is amazing. And they kind of said we all take her as well. So then I got, yeah, that.

3:48I wanted to get into the industry and there was two casting directors in New Zealand at the time so there wasn't much so where did you go what was your first job here so my first job was on reception at a private equity firm which if you know me is not very me and I would google casting assistant London every single day that I was there I'd just like get in And I'd read the news and I would Google that and see if a job popped up. And then one day it did for Emily Tulley, ET Casting. It turns out she had two massive real people jobs come off at the exact same time. She was in the first year of her business and she hadn't had very many jobs up until that point.

4:30And all of a sudden everything took off. So she put a job application out on Gumtree and I applied for it and got it and started working. Well, I took two weeks holiday off of the reception job and worked for her for two weeks. And then the rest is history. And you just loved it, did you, straight away? Loved it, yeah. So the real people jobs were, there was a big IKEA one, and we had to find families of different ethnicities from all around London. So I think I was, my very first day, I was in charge of finding a real Turkish family without any form of training or anything. So I was just calling up Turkish restaurants like, hello, I'm a casting.

5:09So you were street casting, essentially. Pretty much, yeah. And then the second one was Real Families Around the North for McCain's commercials. So a similar street casting type of thing. And what do you remember about those two weeks? I remember how fast the industry is, how fast-paced everything is, and how much you have to work. But also how much fun it is, how much partying is involved. I think I saw I was always petrified that casting directors would only live for their work because I'd heard how busy and stressful it is to work in this industry I'd always been told watch out but then when I met Emily and realized that she had a husband in a nice house and she did do other things outside of work as well that kind of relieved me too.

6:00What were the lessons that you learned quickly that you had to learn quickly the ones that maybe stay with you now? How to work on a hangover? No, but seriously, I think I was really lucky with the jobs that I had up until this point, because I worked for obviously ET Casting for five years, and then I worked for Leslie Biestel for five years. And even though they're both commercial casting directors, they have got two very different ways of looking at how you cast a commercial. Emily taught me a really good understanding in all of the contracts and the admin and the how to run a company and all of that, how to negotiate with agents.

6:40And then Leslie Biestel kind of taught me how to break all of those rules. She's not very admin focused, but she really cares about the casting process, getting the right person. And she doesn't care how that happens as long as you get exactly who you need for that role. Okay, so actually you had two brilliant but very different mentors. I feel really lucky because of that. Any early job disasters you must have had? Oh, yeah, loads. Can you tell us? Some of them are so bad. So I have this thing that my old colleagues refer to as casting Tourette's. So back in the days when we were in studio for eight hours a day, before self-tapes were a total thing, the first few hours of being in a studio seeing say two people every seven and a half minutes saying the same thing to them watching their performance getting a new version of the performance out of them was fine first two hours great after that point you start losing your mind and things would just fall out of my mouth that I didn't mean to and some of them I can't really talk on a podcast because it's just like crap.

7:48But, you know, I just, oh, so I'm like. And I think, you know, when you're seeing the same thing over and over and over again, it must be really difficult to focus, to remain focused. Totally. And keep it fresh for every person as well. You want to give everyone the same energy as, I think that might be the issue actually. You want to give everyone the same energy at the end as you do at the beginning to try and keep that up you get casting threats in the process yeah okay and um any jobs that went wrong at the last minute that you then managed to pull back oh my goodness we had a neurofen job where we had we had to have people like spell out I can't even remember what it was they were doing but spell something out with their bodies and it was in Old Diorama, one of the really big casting spaces.

8:41And we had a choreographer there to do the casting alongside me and the producer as well. And so we had maybe 10 people in every 20 minutes and the choreographer just wanted it to be like a normal dance workshop, which is a completely different structure. So we had 200 people in the waiting room while he was like workshopping with people and it was really stressful. he ended up we tried to figure it out we would get like 50 people into the room at once and all try and do it it was really awful but um we did we did it in the end as long as you keep pushing through with these situations yeah i think i think that's something you definitely definitely have to think on your feet don't you and always not get stressed or not outwardly anyway yeah

9:37From when you started, what's changed most in how clients cast talent? The main one is the change to self-tapes after COVID. But I think there are more for less. I think we've got more castings and less money, more commercials being made, lots of crappy, smaller ads being made and not as much money as it used to be in the industry. So despite, like, even if COVID never even happened, I think we would still be seeing that change. And it seems to be getting worse as well. And I think back then, obviously, there was only really one place for commercials, which was on TV. So they were really amazing, high quality, glossy, massive budget productions.

10:23Whereas now, you know, with the social media coming in, they don't need to be. And everyone's getting used to consuming content that isn't glossy. So the things that do have the budget behind them, the ad agencies are now coming up with briefs that aren't glossy on purpose because it resonates with younger audiences. Has the rise of digital content changed what clients ask for? I think there's luckily still those scripts and briefs out there that require good old proper budgets and fantastic actors, all the Christmas commercials, for instance. And thank God they're there because everyone loves them.

11:02Everyone waits for them to come out every year and watches them. But also, as we just said, the social media, real UGC stuff is prevalent and what people are used to watching. and what draws in younger audiences. So both. And do you think clients are becoming braver now or more cautious? Do you think brands worry about being cancelled if they put out the wrong thing? No, I don't think they're braver. I think when I first started 10 years ago is when all of the brands started casting gay couples or just branching out, casting minorities in general. and that was kind of like new wave, we're really trying really hard.

11:49But I think if you do that now, it's just that's what life is that's really normal. So doing that isn't brave in my eyes. And I think we always hear the word authentic sort of banded about. What do clients actually mean by that word? Yeah. Who the fuck knows, Tessa?

12:09Can I say it's true though, isn't it? Yeah. No, it is true. I think it's all about authenticity. Authenticity. Yeah. What do you mean? I think it depends on what the brief is. So authenticity could mean street casting real people. You could be looking for real hairdressers from Brighton for a head and shoulders commercial. Could mean that. But I think more in terms of like your agency, the actors and models, I think it means true to what the character is. not, you know, and true to themselves, not super made up like a normal person.

12:51Deadlines. We all love a deadline, don't we? Have they got shorter or have they always been? No, I don't think deadlines have got shorter because we used to be able to turn a commercial around in three days if we had to. That was the line that we would say to clients on the phone. We can make it happen in three days from putting a brief out to contract signed. But with self-tapes, I actually think we need more time now. So in terms of casting, it takes longer than just putting a brief out, calling people in for the following day, doing all of the auditions the following day, and then pencils the following day.

13:29So if you as a casting director are giving a deadline, you don't literally want the tape at that deadline. You want them to trickle in. trickle in before that is yeah we will definitely plan for an influx at 10 a.m on tuesday morning when it's due you will have left yourself definitely yeah yeah we and sometimes we'll wait until all of them come in and then smash out the watching and filing at that point um but if you do get it in early it means that we've probably we'll be watching all of them come in and will watch yours with more time. What makes a self-tape instantly stand out? In a self-tape, we're looking for someone who looks right for the role and someone who can perform the role.

14:19So there's the acting or the being or whatever it is that they have to do in the commercial, but also that they look right for the part. And sometimes even if you're doing everything perfectly and you're not doing those two things for that exact role, for that exact performance type. It just never works. So I know that's kind of an annoying answer, but that's how I feel. And looking right doesn't mean looking perfect. It means, you know, you could, you have to be the child of these two parents that we've already cast, or there's just so many different elements to it that there isn't like an instantly standout moment.

14:54It just depends on the brief. And what do you wish that talent all knew about self-tapes, but somehow they don't? And casting is a job. Like it used to be we were in the studio and we were really good at what we did and getting the most out of people and setting up the scene. And I feel really sorry for commercial actors, especially these days, because they're not only actors or models. They're also having to be the producer or the casting producer. They're having to film themselves. They're having to edit it. And they have to direct themselves as well. And some people are really good at acting or, you know, just like being in a commercial, but aren't very good at setting up the scene and the directing and the creative side as well, which is what we are doing, what we're paid to do.

15:45So, yeah, I feel really sorry for people. I feel like I've actually got some tips for them. Perfect. There's like the production side, which I can't really help people do so much from this side. So like the shot and the lighting and the editing and making sure it's sent on time and all of that. But the other stuff, like the little sparkly sprinkles that we added in in studio as casting directors, I feel need to be done. So instead of just getting the self-tape instructions and doing exactly what it says on there, we always think about setting up the scene. So it's really good to think about it in your head first.

16:26But we would quite often play music alongside an audition to make people feel like they're in that scene. To relax and get them into it. Yeah. So it depends on what kind of vibe it is. That really helps a lot of people. It's so important to think about the before of the scene and then the after of the scene. Some people just like happen to be eating a sandwich when in fact a whole self-tape would be really nice if you walk in with a sandwich. Say goodbye to whoever it is. Sit down on your park bench. Eat your sandwich. Think of the story. Exactly. Don't just do the one thing but think about where you are and what you're doing at the same time.

17:04Is it cold? Is it hot? You know, do you have to take your gloves off to eat your sandwich? Things like that. Just add more sparkle to it. A range of performances. I think often a self-tape will say, eat a sandwich, but is it really happy eating a sandwich or is it completely naturalistic eating a sandwich? And usually if they say it's a really natural performance, the performance is still too big. So I would, if I was an actor, I would do it at that level and then I'd take it down 50 % and do it again down there. And then real props, the best thing about being able to do self-tapes and not being in a studio is that you have real stuff there.

17:45So use it. Use the real props. Be in your kitchen if it's in the kitchen. Yeah, that's the best part of self-tapes. Yeah, I think if it's okay, it would be good to get a little sheet together for everyone. Sally, sparkly sprinkles. Sparkly sprinkles. And then if anyone wants to comment on our socials, then we can send it to them because I think that's really valuable. I'm sure you've got lots more that you can add to that as well. Totally. Yeah. Do you think it's made overall casting more accessible or more competitive? Both. I think it's really unfair for people who aren't so good at self-tapes, as I said.

18:25But we see a lot more self-tapes than we ever saw people in the room, maybe twice as much. Oh, it's great for people that can't get into central London every day. It's fantastic for people who can't get into central London, but it also means that we're more willing to take a risk on people that we wouldn't have taken a risk on if we only had, you know, enough time to see 20 people in the room. So if we're seeing 50 people on self-tape, it means we can be like, well, let's give her a go. Never seen her before. And quite often they're fantastic and now they're on your radar or they get the job. What are some of the funniest self-tapes you've received?

19:03Yeah, like all the time. In every single casting, there'll be something that's hilarious. We cast the Money Supermarket 7, which is all of the superhero females in the purple. And that was worth quite a bit of money. So we had a lot of people apply for it. And we went ham. We really threw everything at it. And the casting, the self-tape instructions were intense because we were like, it's an action film. It's worth a lot of money. Do your worst. So there were people like, there was one woman, God bless her soul, that went to her local swimming pool amusement park thing and did one of those, you know, the inflatable on the water thing and got someone, I don't know who, to film it with her as she was like going through.

19:57Did she get the job? No, she didn't. I know. It's off in the way, though. Can I tell you a story of my favourite audition? Yes, please do. So it's in a studio, and again, it's probably not suitable for children. But it was one scene in a much bigger commercial, and I can't even remember what it was for now. But it's one of those classic scenarios where there's all the, like, big men wrapped in towels in a sauna. You see them in films all the time. In the films you watch. All the time, Tessa. I watch it every night. So, yeah, in this scene, I just remember we had five men at a time every 10 minutes or whatever it is.

20:39That's bad. I'm so used to, yeah, but I'm so used to this is going to sound bad as well. So used to asking people to whip their kit off in a casting. Like, we'll go through an ident, blah, blah, blah, profiles, fantastic. All right, whip your kit off and then I'll run through what we're going to do next. So it was one of those castings where they whipped their kit off. So it was all of these five middle to older aged men just in their pants. And one at a time, they would have to come in. This is also an old diorama and sit on a long bench. So the first one would come in and sit in the middle. And then as the second man would come in, the first one would shift over.

21:16And it was just a really plain natural scene until all five of them were lined up. So we did that. They were all in their pants. The first dude came in fine. Second dude came in, sat down, and as he shifted the third time, one of his testicles fell out of his pants and he didn't know.

21:43In a casting, you look at the screen, you don't look at the actual humans. So there's the director and I, and I cannot remember if it was him or I that just pointed at it completely deadpan on the screen. and then we both looked at each other and nodded, straight-faced, and just had to continue on with the entire casting with his testicle out the entire time. And then, yeah, just cut and then go again. Does he carry on? I actually can't remember. He should have. We removed the tape, though, so it didn't go to the agency. I said he removed the testicle. Yeah, we removed his testicle. No, no, no.

22:19No, no, we removed that clip, though. Oh, lovely. Which is also another great thing about being able to cast in the room as opposed to self-tapes is that we could decide what went to the director and the agency and therefore the client.

22:37Something that comes up again and again with actors is spotlight. So it's often treated as a bit of a box ticking exercise. How important is it from a casting point of view? The most important, without a doubt. We will always put a brief out on Spotlight. And then sometimes we will go via the other routes. So contacting agents directly or maybe using another platform, but Spotlight is definitely the best and the only, you know, industry-loved platform. So, yeah, I think it is absolutely invaluable. And if you want to be seen, you should be on Spotlight. In terms of acting, in terms of modelling, not so much.

23:22So that brings me to my next question. Who is it actually for? Because there's often confusion about who can actually be on Spotlight and what you need to get on there. It used to be super strict, didn't it? And I think they've... Yeah, and it's opened up a bit. Well, it's combined forces with Casting Network now. And Casting Networks used to be models and Spotlight used to be actors. So I think because of that, it's opened up a little bit and it's more accessible for models. but even back in the ET days I was putting briefs out for models on Spotlight so it's not completely pointless if you're a model it's definitely yeah really useful to be on when you click on someone's profile what's the first thing you look at what do you want to see so there are two things I will look at first their face when I click on them their agent but there's three I lied.

24:16But most importantly, I look at their credits and just see, because you can tell quickly if they've been working, what kind of jobs they're working on, whether they're going to be reliable on the brief that I'm looking for them for. So how much does it matter that a spotlight profile is current? So their shots are up to date, their skills, their credits? You don't want to go on and see the last credits five years ago. If I go on and say that their last credits were five years ago, I will assume that they haven't worked in the last five years. And therefore, something's probably wrong if this is their main job.

24:52So if you're out there and you're listening and you haven't updated your credits, you totally should because it is super important. And also filling out all of the fields within it. Sometimes people just fill out, you know, the job title and the year. We all know all of the production companies and all of the directors. So if you've got that on there, we'll be like, oh, right, okay, well, she's worked with him. So great. Totally trustworthy. Let's get them in. What don't you want to see? Well, I haven't actually talked about showreels. Showreels, we will watch those as well because, again, you just want to see that someone can perform in the way that your brief needs.

25:31So I don't want to see like super long five-minute showreels. I love the ones where there's a commercial showreel where you can see all of their commercial work in a minute, actor showreel, presenter showreel. And then if I have 10 seconds per profile to look at to choose who's coming in for a casting or who we ask to self-tape, I can immediately see where I need to watch, have a look. Yes, I can do it. Done. Move on. Click. Yeah, that's a massive thing. You're not spending five minutes on each person's profile. No, God, no. It's the same as walking in a room. you have 10 seconds to make an impression.

26:05Exactly. Yeah. So I think people stew over this really long, perfect showreel, but just need to show us the very best bits as fast as possible. So we go, yes, we want to see more of them. And what do you see on profiles that you think, oh God, that really didn't need to be on there? UGC topless gym photos. Cringe. Leave that to your dating profile. I think like just classic headshots and studio shots are nice for the pictures. And then sometimes like really old school productions and things in the credits, there's no need for that ever. No. Keep it current, keep it relevant. Totally.

26:49What do clients really notice that talent sometimes think goes unseen? They don't put importance on it, but it is important. I think pretending to be the character rather than just acting the character. We know who you are as a person. I'm saying this because what's just come to my head is we had this man who was pretending to be 20 years older than he was. And it was really embarrassing as a casting director. he walked in and he had put like white talcum powdery stuff through his hair to make it look like he was older and then like bare face lied in front of the director and I in the studio when we asked what was that he didn't even he didn't acknowledge that he'd put anything in his hair so I think just being real.

27:37And all that's going to do is make you blacklist him and not see him for anything else. Totally. Even if he is right for it. Absolutely and like on a set they've got really good, you know, makeup and hair people who will be able to do that for them successfully. And we can not only see that you've done that and you look like a fool, but we can see past who you are and what you could be given the right circumstances. At an in-person casting, how long do you have to make that impression? And what do you want to see in the first few seconds of someone walking into the room? No ego. I think just like a good, normal, nice human who you want to hang out with, you know, they could be really annoying and then be absolutely fantastic in the role, which is the most annoying situation sometimes.

28:23You're like, oh, my God, we're going to have to have lots of talent like that. Yeah, there is also that. But, yeah, I think the ability just to be normal and then be good in your performance and be able to give like lots of range off the cuff. like in a recall if the director's like that was fantastic we try it this way and then they do it

28:47we have some questions from the floor uh michelle what is the first thing all talents should do when filming a self-tape they should prepare i when i get a script to do in studio i think about what it will look like in the commercial in my head. So if you think about that and you think about what props you're going to need, what kind of performances the director might ask for, and you can think of like different types of film directors if you want. Like if this was Tarantino, he might want me to do it like this. But if this was Spielberg, he might want me to do it like this. So I just think preparing for all of the different eventualities and making sure you're prepared with props and everything.

29:36How important is following the self-tape brief exactly versus adding a bit more personality or reading the lines a few different ways? Both. Don't ever not do what is asked. Definitely do what is asked, but maybe do what is asked and then do it again in another way. Or do what is asked, but in three different ways to how it could be construed. Thank you, Lily. Sarah. Sarah from our junior division. So what are the most common mistakes that you see children making in their self-tapes and what should the parents know to help them get better and improve? So children, depending on their age, as you will definitely know, are completely different.

30:20So a 15-year-old doing a self-tape is going to be quite similar to the advice I've already given for adults, but the younger they get, the more difficult it is because they're not really acting. They are being told what to do. Exactly. By mum and dad. Exactly. So they're just following instructions. So it's, again, if they look right and instead of performance, it's being able to follow instructions. So I think in a self-tape, it's okay for casting teams to see the parents working through it maybe. Well, it's the following direction, isn't it? Absolutely. And again, similar advice is try to plonk them into the exact scenario that they would be in the scene.

31:04So if they're in a kitchen, put them in the kitchen. Try and get them to do something real. Have an actual laugh with them. Just make sure you're standing behind the camera. And just try and make it as easy as possible to get that performance out of them. That's what we used to do in studio. Anyway. Good answer. Billy. When reviewing self-tapes, what's one thing that makes you switch off instantly and just move on to the next? Loads of things. So the first thing you see when you're watching loads of self-tapes is the ident. And I think some people get really hung up on making the ident incredible, like having amazing hair, having amazing makeup, great lighting, which all is really important.

31:46However, in a studio, we try and get an ident done as quickly as possible. Name, agent, height, hands, profiles. Cool. Let's get on to the actual good stuff. It's admin. Get it over and done with. Think of it as a form that you're doing in real life and then move on to the fun stuff. Poppy. How important do you think likability and authenticity are compared to demographic agent look? Both are important. I think obviously age and demographic are important. You can't be a 20-something-year-old female going for a grandfather role, for instance. But likability is really important because you'll just make friends with the casting director or the director or the producer or one of the creatives in the ad agency and they'll remember you or they'll already know you and you'll be seen for it.

32:37Or even if you're not friends with them yet, you just people can get the vibe that you're going to be nice to work with. So as is any job, I think it's important. Katie. Sally, you come across as naturally very calm, albeit a bit sweary. How do you manage to stay relaxed and in control in what can be a very chaotic and last minute industry? That's hilarious. I certainly do not feel calm and in control. I feel chaotic a lot of the time, but I feed off of chaos. I love a fast-paced industry. I work a lot better when things are up here. Yeah, I think I love it. Oh, thank you. Thank you. Thank you for saying that.

33:24I can't believe it. Wild. Organized chaos, we'll call that. Nikki, what can agencies do to make casting processes smoother or more effective for the clients and the talent? And what makes an agent easy to work with for you? I think the biggest thing is making really informed suggestions. So if you send over 50 options, I know some briefs are really massive, but if you send over 50 options, it doesn't look like you've had like a massive think about who would be perfect for the role. Sometimes you do have 50 people on your books that are perfect for the role. But I think in that case, you should also send the casting team just a wee email saying, I know I've sent over 50 because it's a massive brief.

34:15However, if I had to pick two or three, I would pick Fred, Joe and Harry. Just so it looks like, you know, you're on our side, you're helping us. And yeah, you really want those three to be seen. We will definitely get those in, plus some extras who are in the light box or have been suggested on Spotlight. Emma, have you ever worked on casting the John Lewis Christmas commercial? I have not. I actually haven't. I know you love the Christmas commercial this year. But we did work on a John Lewis commercial a few years ago, which was the one that got banned from TV. Was it the one with? The little boy running around the house.

35:01Okay. I love that commercial. Yeah. So it's one with like the little boy. You guys definitely would, we would have asked you for a load of casting tapes for it. It's the boy walking around the house, kind of trashing the house, but dancing to the Stevie Nicks song. And it got banned because of him trashing the house, apparently. But I think more people were up in arms about the fact that he was wearing lipstick and heels in his mum's dress, even though he was only nine. which annoys me to no end because that's super cool. But anyway, it was really fun to watch hundreds of kids dancing. And again, it was an example of he definitely wasn't the best dancer out of all of them, but he just had like, yeah, something special.

35:46It's a shame they banned it because I remember that commercial. I can't remember all of the John Lewis ads, but I do remember that one and it was really good. Yay. He was great. Reggie. Bless him. Yeah. That's good. Thank you. Thank you. Jemima. Hello. Hello. Going on from the Christmas commercial question, is being cast in a major Christmas commercial a good thing or can it risk typecasting or preventing work for other retail clients? It's totally a good thing. Everyone wants to be in a Christmas commercial. They're the best and they pay well, which is also important. If it's a good one, yeah.

36:20You might not get another role in a supermarket commercial or a department store commercial, but take the money and run totally fair enough yeah ione christmas jumpers at castings yay or nay if it's asked for yay if it's not asked for nay i absolutely not what are you thinking can we have the story of your very classy christmas jumper oh isn't it great yeah i bought this in a second-hand shop in America about a decade ago and I was wearing it once I can't even remember who told me but they were like that's Robert Patterson's Christmas jumper I was like what do you mean and I'm like well google it and there is this photo on the internet of Robert Patterson in this exact Christmas jumper oh and that probably was his well I hope so I could probably sell it on for some yeah yeah you can although although his has got a toggle on the zip Mine doesn't.

37:19So yours is a fake. What? Oh, my God. Imagine buying a fake version of it.

37:31What is the most last-minute Christmas request you've received? We would receive casting briefs just before Christmas or within the Christmas and New Year's break almost every year, which is so annoying because everyone else kind of downs tools but um a lot of productions will want to start straight back in the new year so and we're always the first ones that have to do anything so quite often almost every year we'd have a casting that we'd be putting out and on the 27th of december and then looking at yeah and then you're casting literally the 2nd of january yeah first week of jan yeah and then you shoot on the 5th or whatever it is 5th of jan yeah yeah So people think that, you know, the Christmas commercials get made in November or something.

38:20Oh, no, they're made in like September, August, September. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. We're constantly, if we're doing productions, we're making Christmas trees and snow and everything in August. Totally wrapped up in jumpers, pretending that you're cold in a self-tape or, yeah. 30 degrees heat. And it's really hot outside. That's what it feels like in New Zealand at Christmas. Yeah. All of the songs are about snow. How was that coming here and suddenly being? It felt real. It felt like Christmas is supposed to feel, which was nice. So do you have, on your Christmas cards in New Zealand, is it like robins and snow?

38:53Yeah. Really? Totally centre and a big woolly outfit. And the last question is from Amy. So which Christmas character would absolutely smash a casting and which would be a total nightmare? at first the Grinch would be really bad but actually he's like so loose and off the cuff and just allows them to be whoever he is he could have done that near a fan commercial he totally yeah he would have done every single one of the letters they had to spell out with their bodies or whatever it was um yeah no I think the Grinch would be epic um who would be a bit crap Kevin from Home Alone, he'd just like put nails under my seat or something.

39:34I don't know.

39:41Thank you so much for that. And we are really looking forward to dragging you across to work agent side and having you with us full time in 2026. I'm really looking forward to it. Can't wait.

40:02As we wrap up this episode and the year, I just want to say a huge thank you to all our guests for giving their time and sharing their experience and stories so openly. And to you, our listeners, for coming back week after week. A special thank you to Anna and Sophie from Soundyard, who do a brilliant job editing every episode and making us sound far more polished than we probably deserve. To Sarah, who worked tirelessly to launch the podcast and book such great guests. And thank you to Amy, who consistently puts out such thoughtful, lovely social content and helps us bring each episode to life beyond the recording.

40:43We'll be back in 2026 with more exciting insight into the business of modelling. Until then, thank you for being part of the journey and have a very happy new year.

40:59You