Sophie Hughes, Curve Model & Content Creator

0:02Welcome to the Business of Modeling, the podcast where we explore the fascinating world of the modelling industry. I'm Tessa Dewing, Managing Director of Sandra Reynolds, a commercial model agency celebrating its 50th year of business. We're in Manchester today with Sophie Hughes, Curve Model, content creator and co-host of the Curveball podcast. Sophie began modelling at 15 and has built an international career working with brands including Simply Bee, Boohoo, Skims, Superdrug and New Look. Her career and her life changing decision to donate part of her liver to her nephew have shaped her approach to body confidence, authenticity and self-acceptance.

0:51Today Sophie uses her platform to promote a healthier mindset in both modelling and social media. Sophie thank you for being here and welcome to the business of modelling. What an intro that was. You know what someone does to do an intro and it's like an outer body experience and you're like oh yeah that's great. That's me. That's me. Thank you. Thank you for having me. So tell us where you grew up and how you first got into modelling. So I grew up in Marple in Cheshire which is a reasonable sized town but kind of everyone knows everyone. And I'd never actually thought about modelling. It wasn't something that I'd ever really considered.

1:31It wasn't something that, you know, people talk about modelling was my dream and it was all I wanted to do. I was only 15, so I didn't really have a dream yet. I didn't really know what I wanted to do. Were you good at school? Yeah, I worked really hard at school and I was a good pupil. I never stopped talking, which was always my feedback. It's funny when I read back on the course. Which has made your career. I know. But it's funny, you know, when you read your school reports back and you're like, oh, she never stopped talking. I'm like, well, make sure of it. Nice job podcast. Yeah. So I was 15 and really weirdly, actually, I was in London on a weekend away with my mom and her best friend.

2:05And I got scouted at London Euston station by Debbie, who owns Boss Model Management in Manchester. And this was 19 years ago, which is crazy. So Deb scouted me in London, but they were a Manchester-based agency, which kind of worked really well because I was so young and they needed to nurture me. It was great that they were close to home. And the strangest thing was, Debbie actually lived at the time two country lanes above where we lived in this little country town of Mellor. So it was really strange that I'd been scouted in London and then here we were. So she, you know, did the gentle, gentle approach of me because I was kind of like, I'm not really sure I want to model.

2:43I don't really know. No, so you weren't completely starstruck by it straight away or anything. This was pre-social media. So I didn't really have a concept. And you didn't know what it was about. I think that's the difference now, like being an agent, is having girls, girls that come in now, they know all about it because they've seen it all over social media. They know what to work for their digital. But back then, people would come in like a deer in the headlights. Like they'd have no idea what posing involved or what any of it was. No. So she said, let's organise you a test shoot and then we'll kind of take it from there.

3:12So I had my very first test shoot with Sarah Jones. I don't know if you remember Sarah Jones, but she was amazing. She's still doing a little bit, but not so much in fashion. And she picked me up, which is hilarious and just a sign of the times. Can you imagine a photographer picking you up now for a test? Because I was a child. She picked me up and she took me to Formby Beach in Liverpool. And we did this test shoot, which is hilarious to look back on now because just the fashion and the style of it. And I went in the sea in October in Formby Beach. I really enjoyed it. And I was quite natural at it from what they'd said.

3:44And then they got the shots back and they were like, we'd love to sign you. and then it just snowballed from there really and here we are 19 years later do you remember your first job my first job yes it was do you remember fire trap yes yeah it was for fire trap which was really big at the time so it was quite exciting especially because I had no idea what I was doing um but it was all jeans and stuff and then my next job my first sort of next big job for that was bridal which I always think is hilarious because I was 16 yeah I know I was sick that I remember getting the train down to London and it was a bridal lookbook and we did 70 wedding dresses in one day, which is a lot.

4:21Yeah. Especially for bridal. Especially for wedding dresses because they're really intricate with all the buttons. And they were all a sample size 10 and I was between a four and a six. So I had to be like pinned into every single dress. So that was quite intense. That was, I think Firetrap was like a gentle introduction. It was a campaign. We only had a few shots to do. You know, you were treated like royalty. Yeah, and then 70 shots of bridal. Yeah, 70 bridal shots was the next one. And what were the expectations of body image then? How honest do you want me to be? Very. I mean, extreme, really.

4:53I mean, you were tiny anyway. I was tiny. I mean, I didn't even weigh 50 kilos and I was 5 foot 9. And there was a constant pressure from one booker in particular at the time who just everything was about our measurements. And every time you'd go in, which was regularly, she was coming at you with a tape measure I remember at one point she put me on an apple diet because I wanted to do or I was up for doing a selfridges runway and they needed an inch off my hips I mean I don't know what my hip measurement was but it was tiny they needed an inch off my hips for me to be able to do this runway and it's difficult with your hips because your hips are bone yeah absolutely so if you've not got any fat on you anyway you're really not going to lose not going to lose that it's not realistic I remember Clara's day and I must have been 17 and she said, if you want to do the Selfridges runway, I'd suggest you just eat as many apples a day as you want because obviously you're just going to go to the toilet constantly and drink lots of water and then we'll see where we're at in a week.

5:50Can you imagine? Wow. I know. How did that make you feel? I mean, I already was in a full-blown eating disorder so I think I kind of thrived on it because she was fueling it and it was such a toxic relationship. But you were getting a reward at the end of it. You were going to be on Selfridges runway. Well, I did the Selfridges runway. It was amazing. And I didn't feel anything at the time. It's only when I look back as an adult, I guess, and having healed my relationship with my body, it's only when I look back and realise how incredibly toxic a lot of my early experiences in the modelling industry were.

6:28So I moved on from BOSS after a couple of years, as you do, and you're kind of finding your feet. And I went to other agencies, various other agencies. and it was just a constant battle to be smaller. It was the same wherever you went. Yeah, I think it was just really reinforced and it was so normal. I talk to my model friends from back in the day now who have gone on to be mommies and none of them are modeling anymore and they're all in much less model-like, and I say that in inverted commas, bodies now, you know, they're all healthy, size 12, 14s, got their toddlers running around and things like that and we talk about our experiences of that time and just how tiny we all were and how tiny we were all pressured to be.

7:09But it was just so normal. Well, and that was modelling back then. There was no curve. The commercial market wasn't really that big, it wasn't. Whereas now it's, okay, you do have to fit into those clothes if you want to do high fashion and if you want to be on the catwalk. In those days, if you wanted to be a model, that's what you had to do. Absolutely. If you wanted to be a model, you had to be a size six. Because I think the difference is that back then, obviously, models have to be somewhat unattainable in some point. That is the entire purpose of the marketing. I understand that. And I understand you're trying to sell whatever the product is and that's how you sell it.

7:45I get it. You've got a bottom line to hit and that's how you sell. But I think back then the only way for models to be unattainable was for them to just be as tiny as possible. Whereas now I think we've realised that actually, you know, bigger bodies where women are still beautiful and still hit these other markers of what the industry is looking for also works. Yeah. And also brands have realised that actually relatable people sell. You know, people, I do want to see someone lovely if I'm buying clothes. You've got to, you know, but it doesn't have to be to fit into that, you know, tiny, skinny toolbox.

8:23box you know we want people that we can aspire to be and they're relatable to us I think that's where brands have realized that that is what sells now I think some brands have realized I think a lot of them are still got catching up to do I saw a campaign the other day I can't actually remember who it was for but the age of the models just blew me away the girls were like 18 well Zara's just been pulled off again hasn't it Zara's just outrageous isn't it I mean the poses that you have to do for Zara just make me laugh so much yeah and how how quirky and how out there they are when it's people like me and you that buys are yeah yeah absolutely yeah it's just I am not doing that to put my shoes on but um yeah I think when we look at age as well that's another interesting topic because this campaign whichever supermarket was for and the models were 18 and I'm thinking your average audience is women in the 40s and 50s absolutely it's it's bizarre really

9:20you modelled for here for a long time and were really successful and then you moved to Australia so how did that move happen so I when I was 22 I moved I was working I'd finished my degree I was modeling alongside my degree and then I started working in a corporate job for a little while which I absolutely hated where was your degree was that up here that was in London right okay I studied psychology down in London, which I absolutely loved. And really thought I'd actually go into that field and thought I would go on to do my PhD. But then going to Australia kind of derailed that. So I was 22 and I just decided I didn't want to be stuck in a corporate career yet.

9:57And I was going to go and take six months to a year to figure things out. So you went traveling initially? Basically, yeah. I put my backpack on. My sister and her husband had just gone to New Zealand on honeymoon. So I went and gatecrashed the honeymoon. Excellent. I was like I'm coming and then I went to Australia on my own and I ended up staying for nine years which was the best experience of my life and I continued to model out there and continue to do various other things and kind of found social media and it all came full circle and then I moved back. Were you in Sydney or did you travel around?

10:29Yes I was in Sydney and who was I with early on I was with Vivian's in Sydney early on and then when I had my surgery which I'm sure we'll talk about I stopped modelling for a little while and then I got re-scouted into the curve industry with Bella Management who are absolutely amazing probably one of my favourite agencies I've ever had.

10:56Donating part of your liver to your nephew was obviously a huge personal decision so tell us about that experience and how that then ultimately affected your relationship with your body so I was 25 which at the time I obviously thought I was really old and you know had all this life experience but I look back and I was just still such a baby um and I think I still thought I was a bit invincible I think when you're in your 20s you have this I'm not afraid of anything kind of energy which was great and worked really well for the experience that I was about to go through so I was 25 I still have an eating disorder at that point and I had had since I was about 14 and so I'd really been through it just this experience anorexia yeah yeah and just a constant need to control my food so did your your family didn't know I think it's an interesting one I remember my dad my mom and dad are separated I remember my dad dropped me off once and saying to my mom uh can I have a word with you and they really didn't communicate so that was weird so I was quite a big thing yeah yeah and he said you know I'm really worried about so she's really tiny and I feel like she's not eating enough and my mom kind of said no she's fine she's fine my mom had had her own battles with disordered eating when she was younger as well so it was just very convoluted it came up in conversation but I was never sat down there was never an intervention there was never you know what is going on but I was very sneaky I was gonna say do you wish there had to be or would you just have no no one could have got there to me yeah there was no way I would have just said you're being ridiculous yeah yeah um but I was super sneaky you know I would always I would never ever eat at school and that is weird because I think now that would have been picked up and actually spoke to my head of year about it because she follows me on socials and we had a conversation about it and she said I feel like we're in a much better place now with safeguarding and picking up on these things but at the time it just wasn't a topic of discussion you know I just never ate at school and none of my friends ever said anything there was two lines in the canteen and it was hot food and cold food and I would sit down and get the table because I wasn't eating and it was just like oh Sophie will get the table because she doesn't eat it was just so colloquial and then I guess like everything that then becomes a habit too yeah and it's just so normal it's just something you do you don't get hungry because you're not used to eating in the day exactly and then I would get home and be sneaky and say oh I ate so much at school oh my bad chips and gravy and cheese I'm so full I don't want my dinner so I was sneaky I was clever I knew what I was doing.

13:24And there used to be like pro-anorexia websites and things like that, where you could get all tips and tricks. And it was a very toxic time. And the media was just constantly reinforcing that that was completely normal. So I'd struggled with that. And I was in Australia. I was in a better place. I definitely wasn't being that sneaky, but I still had massive control around food. Everything I ate, I knew exactly how many calories were in it, just constantly punishing my body. Was there anything else going on as to why that happened or that was just how you were at that time? I think it was just control.

13:59It was the only thing that I felt like I could control and no one could take away from me. And then probably the worst thing that could have happened was that I got scouted into the industry when I wasn't well because then I was just around. You then reiterated that that was the size you should be. Exactly. And then I was around all of these other models who also didn't eat. You know, we never used to eat lunch on set. They didn't even really offer it because they knew we wouldn't eat and that was fine. Whereas now there's so much more awareness around that and it's completely different in that regard, which is great.

14:30Did you look healthy outwardly? No. Would you say no? I look like an alien. My head was just so big on this body and with being so tall. I look back and I just think, my God. I mean, you could see every rib. And you were getting bookings. Yeah. Yeah. Oh. I know. It's scary, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. So that was where I was at. I turned 25 and I was living in Sydney and my nephew was born in Manchester and I've got five nieces and nephews and I'm really close with all of them. And I'd flown home to surprise my family to meet him when he was born, which was so lovely. And then I'd gone back to Sydney and he was born quite jaundiced and they kind of kept brushing it off and saying, he's fine, he's fine, he's fine.

15:12And then it got to a point where he just really wasn't fine and he was you know sort of six weeks old and he was still really quite yellow and his eyes were quite yellow and my sister-in-law was out in the village one day and this little old lady just commented on how yellow he was and it was kind of that do you know what everyone keeps saying this and they keep telling me he's fine but he's not so she pushed a bit harder and he was diagnosed with biliary atresia which is a condition where the bile duct isn't producing bile and then eventually the liver will fail as a result. So he had what's called a CASI procedure, which is quite a small procedure and it works 50 % of the time.

15:48So 50 % of the time, you'd go on to live a completely normal life. 50 % of the time, it won't work and you will start going to liver failure. So he had that in the December and by the January, they told us that it failed and he was going to need a liver and he was being put on the donor list. And when they're so tiny, their bodies just don't have very long because they are deteriorating so quickly so he was so swollen and he wasn't really growing and he was so yellow and just tubes coming out of him everywhere it was just awful and he's been seeing the effect that was having on your sister yeah my sister-in-law and my brother it is um but yeah so it was awful and we were just waiting basically for a deceased donor to become available which is awful because you're waiting really for another baby yeah because it needs to be such a small liver.

16:40So we're playing the waiting game. He's not getting any better. He's not even number one on the list at this point. And we're just starting to feel a bit hopeless. We had found out as a family, my brother wasn't really involved in this, but we'd found out about the Living Liver Donor Program because I had no idea that you could donate liver. It's not something I'd ever heard of. I didn't realise it was a thing. So I got in touch with them prior to talking to my brother just to inquire and just to kind of see what, you know, what the information would be. And I filled in the forms and basically quite a few of my family members did.

17:14And we spoke to my brother and, you know, we had a family discussion about it and he was absolutely adamant that's not happening, but let's just go through the motions. So like, okay, okay. They came back to me quite quickly and said, on paper, you are an ideal candidate because you are so healthy in terms of there would be no fat on my liver at all, because I'd always been so tiny. It actually really worked in his favour because my liver was like a small liver anyway, a teenager's liver effectively, because I was so slim and because I'd never eaten any fat. So they came back and said, you look like a perfect candidate on paper.

17:49We're going to fly you back to the UK and we'll proceed with Tess. And I'm my brother's baby sister. So for him, this was, you know, not only was his son potentially going to die, but now his little sister's offering to give a liver. You can imagine just how overwhelming. So flew back. They raced me through all the tests because in the time from applying for the Living Liver Donor Program to, you know, a couple of weeks later, he had deteriorated rapidly. He got a massive blood clot and we nearly lost him. And it kind of became apparent, look, if he doesn't get... If I don't do this, he might not make it.

18:22Yeah. So we went through all the tests and they tell you at every step, you know, it's really unlikely that you will be a match because not only do you have to be a perfect blood match, but every cell in your body has to be perfectly healthy. And I mean, they do CAT scans, pap smear, everything, lung capacity. So it's got to really be exact on lots of levels. And then even the liver itself has all sorts of different veins and the portal vein has to be the perfect shape to be able to connect to the other person's liver. So it's not easy to find a match. They did all of the scans and then they called to say that I was a match and that they wanted to proceed with surgery.

19:01And my brother even then was still, you know, this is just so risky and it's really not what I want, but I'm kind of out of options. Absolutely. Yeah. So we did the surgery. Mine took a bit longer than expected. It took about eight hours. And Oscar's surgery actually went really well. He had a couple of complications post-surgery. but they had said to me prior to surgery that when I woke up he would still be in surgery because they open me up and they get the liver out and they make sure it's okay and then they take it into his room and then they open him up so he's a few hours behind me so they said you know when you wake up we won't be able to tell you if Oscar's okay or not yet so don't panic it's just that he's still in surgery but I remember waking up and of course the first question when you're out of it on anesthetic is how's oscar doing and she was able to tell me straight away she said he's doing really well he's in recovery he's doing really well which was just the biggest so how did they take the whole of your liver no so your liver has two lobes right your left lobe and your right lobe so when you donate to a child they take your left lobe right smaller okay so it's about 40 and then it regrows right yes which is incredible yeah it's the only organ in your whole thing is because i guess you were then under you had to go back and have scans and Yeah, so every year I have everything checked and make sure everything's okay.

20:21And it's completely grown back? Yeah, it's fine. So it grows back to about 90 % of what it was. Wow. And it was already quite small. So I've got a small liver for an adult, but that's fine. It's a crazy story to tell because, again, it feels like it didn't happen to me. Yeah. And it's 10 years in May, so it's been a little while now. And how's Oscar? He's thriving. Is he? Absolutely thriving. Captain of his football team and living his best life. Yeah, he's great. And when he was a baby, he used to always say. And you must look at him like that and just think. Yeah. It's just so worth it. Every day of the week, yeah.

20:51When he was a baby, he used to say, I got my liver from Australia.

20:56So tell us about you after post-op. Grueling recovery. I mean, nothing could have prepared me for that. And obviously they've cut you in half and taken out your liver. But Christ, it took me probably a year to get back to feeling somewhat normal. And I still struggle now a little bit. I get a bit of tension in my scar and things like that. My abs are completely separated. I gained a lot of weight and they warned me that this could happen. So on average, after a liver donation, people gain about 10 kilos. And I did gain probably between 10 and 15 kilos within an 18-month period, which was, as someone who'd always struggled with my body image, was really quite extreme.

21:38I hadn't really changed anything, but just everything I was eating seemed to just immediately impact me and your liver is responsible for breaking down all your fatty acids and your metabolism and all those kinds of things. So it makes sense. So not only did I have weight gain to deal with, I'd gone from a size six to a size 16 in the space of 18 months. I had massive boobs. I was like, where have they come from? Never had any boobs in my life. It was outrageous. and I had a seven inch scar up my stomach. So prior to this, I was modeling and then I was kind of like, what am I doing with my life?

22:17And you've gone back to Australia. I'd gone back to Australia. I was back in Oz and I just, yeah, initially just felt very, very lost with it all. And I started following a couple of people on social media, the Birds Papaya and Chessie King. And they were both just gorgeous women who were curvy, size 14s, really healthy. And I just looked at them and thought they looked amazing. There they are jiggling their bits about and showing their postpartum bodies or their bellies or whatever it might be. And how is it that I can look at them and think they look incredible, but I hate myself so deeply. So I really started sharing on social media as a bit of an exposure therapy.

22:54I didn't expect it to kind of go to where it has now in that I've been able to build a career out of it. But I started sharing because if I put the worst of me out there, then everyone had already seen the worst. Does that make sense? sense yeah so it was a bit of exposure therapy and then it just i healed through doing it really and i got scouted into the model into the curve modeling industry so you'd obviously stop where you didn't look like your pictures anymore no you didn't know so yeah you and i just didn't see a world in which i would know would model no um but i've been more successful were you i know i've been more successful as a curve model than i ever was straight size so did you get scouted again as a curve model you didn't put yourself out there so I got scouted again through uh Instagram this time actually um and just sharing my journey and obviously sharing that I had so much experience in the modeling industry previously I probably had two years where I didn't model and then I got re-scouted and my first job was for moddy body you know the period pants right and it was with my scar out so it was straight in we go yeah you know in this new body with your scar out and I just absolutely loved that campaign and I loved the shots because it was the first time really since I'd started modelling, I'd looked at myself and just thought, yeah, here we are, that's fine.

24:07So it was in your mind, you had to change your mindset to how you were perceiving yourself. A hundred percent. And I think as well, because my body had been through so much by that point, I was just done with being so cruel to it. And my body had literally saved a life. And I guess I kind of found peace in the fact that I just wasn't going to spend the rest of my life hating it when And it had been through so much and it had done so much. And it was really just the least interesting thing about me. And I don't really know where I would be now had I not gone through the surgery. Because I don't know what it would have taken for me to accept myself.

24:44I really don't.

24:49I never really aim for body positivity because I think it can be a little bit fluffy. So for me... More sort of acceptance. Yeah, and just not caring so much. I think that's the most important thing. I always say to people, I encourage you to be the healthiest version of yourself, whatever that looks like, mentally and physically. So I think body positivity sometimes gets, you know, lined up with promoting obesity or encouraging people to be in an unhealthy body. And I very much veer in the opposite direction of that. But I don't think that you can be the healthiest version of yourself unless you heal what's going on in your mind.

25:29because you don't want to take care of yourself. If you hate yourself on the deepest level and you hate what you see in the mirror and you hate who you are as a person, it's very difficult to lose the weight that you might need to lose for your health, for example. So I think for me, body confidence and body neutrality particularly is about self-acceptance and learning to accept yourself who you are in the moment because that's all you have whilst being on a journey to being the best version of yourself, whatever that looks like for you and it looks so different for everyone because and I think there there are still lots of people as well that will push themselves out on social media and look like they're really out there and positive and they're actually suffering I think for me when I was in the smallest body which was always the goal was like how can I just be smaller and when I was at my absolute smallest is the worst I've ever been mentally and physically you know I was right Cal because I never ate anything.

26:29I was hungry all the time. I was. I was so snappy. I'm like, no wonder I was so snappy. I was just hungry, honestly. I spent 10 years hungry. No wonder I wasn't a very nice person. And how has the industry's attitude towards curve models evolved over the years, would you say? So I think it's really interesting because my experience of the modeling industry now is so incredibly different. And I don't know if it's because times have changed or because I'm now in the curve modeling industry. I think there's a massive shift towards acceptance of it. I mean, when I first started modeling, there was no curve boards.

27:06There was maybe one or two worldwide agencies that had curve. But most curve models were a size 12. Yeah. Or they just had a bit of boobs and they're a bit more, it was kind of like glamour and fashion, wasn't there really? Yeah, plus size or outsize. And they would literally be, yeah, a size 12 and five foot 11 or six foot. So they didn't look big at all. No, not at all. And they always have perfect, perfect, perfect proportions. Proportions, yeah. I was like, well, it's not really representative, is it? Because they've still got a, you know, 21-inch waist. Yeah, yeah. So I think we have come a long way.

27:39And I think there is a lot more representation now. If you'd have asked me that question two years ago, I probably would have been slightly more positive. But I have seen a massive shift this year. Everyone's saying the same backwards. Shift this year. Massive shift. And I spoke to one of my friends the other day who's probably one of the most successful curve models I know. And I won't say her name because I've not asked permission, but she was saying she's had two jobs this year. Two jobs. And she's a full-time working model and has been, you know, for a long time. She's super successful. She's a well-known name.

28:10And she said, I've never seen anything like it. And because she works a lot in Europe, she'd had a conversation with one of her clients in Paris. And this client, and you know how they are, they don't care. They just really callously said to her, oh, you are not in vogue. you're not trending then that's what that was the excuse they were just like we don't need you anymore like you're not we don't need to tick your box anymore basically yeah and it's okay now for us to just use size six models again so that's what yeah and that's what's happened because there was yeah two two three years ago i think you got scolded i really felt like it was people you know the designers were starting to use more diverse more different size models and that just seems to have just gone massively backward.

28:51I think as soon as they've been given permission to not have to do it, it's just... Also, there's no accountability either. You know, the BFC have a policy that says they should be looking at, you know, using diverse. Yeah, but there's no one's holding them to account on it. And are you seeing that from your side with booking as well? Yeah, I think to be honest, because we're not a high fashion agency, we're commercial. So we know we do have lots of work for, you know different size models it's that's our market yeah um but i definitely see it in the fashion industry and people i'm talking to on this podcast are all saying the same thing i don't know if you follow felicity haywood but she does the she does a report every year about all the runways around the world yeah i think it's called uh i can't remember it's called but it's basically like the curve edit and it focuses on how many curve models are on each runway and there was a mass there was like a sharp increase about five years ago and it was when body positivity was just absolutely on trend and everyone was talking about it and if as a brand you weren't doing it you were really getting berated yes and then over the last five years it's just been well then they all start just ticking the box saying oh we better do that we better do that and they do it and they tick that box and then they kind of go back to and it's always very obvious when you are the tick box model as well when you arrive on set and you're the tick box it's just it's very clear um and there's a lot of that with curve where you arrive and you know everyone else is a size six and you're the token curve and I think there's less so this year of they need a token curve which is sad really but it just shows that in the fashion industry and in the modeling industry bodies are still trends yeah and that's the way it's seen because if we're just a tick box activity then you're just following the trend the Kardashians have had their bum implants removed and their boobs removed and so that's the world has gone back to that and it filters down and then and everyone looks the same again i know that's the saddest thing isn't it yeah and then these young girls think that that's how they're supposed to look as well and like you say there's no variety no and with ai now coming out as well that's my favorite thing about the modeling industry is the the variety yeah just these beautiful interesting faces yeah it's a shame what are your thoughts on ai it's a tricky one isn't it because it's here and it's here to stay so there's a lot of agencies saying no we're not doing it full stop and that's not realistic you know you're gonna get left behind i mean if you could pay if you were a business um say you're a fashion brand and you can pay five ten grand a year for your ai model yeah and you then don't need a photographer and you don't need makeup artists and you don't need models and you don't need any of it yeah and it you know it's all going to be absolutely perfect there's no room for human error and you can have every outfit shot the same day uploaded everything.

31:36It's an absolute no-brainer for something like e-commerce. I think there will always be a place for humans in terms of big commercials, campaigns, runways. There will always be that side of modeling. And content creation. I think so much of the brands' budgets are going into that now. 100%. And it's not the old kind of model influencers. It's the new kind of content creators, the people that might be I don't know carpenters or builders and people from all walks of life that have a voice they're like the key person of influence in their industry and I think that's where a lot of it's sort of going to go and where the human connection I can't imagine AI influences and it just doesn't you've not got that relatability that we spoke about before and I think I talk to a lot of models about this because I get a lot of models reach out about how to build their socials presence as well.

32:30Yeah. Because like you say, so many of the budgets are going into that. And it's really interesting for me because I do content creation. Yes. And also modeling. So I will see brands come through and I get the budget for a day rate for modeling and I get the budget for socials and the socials is three times more and I'm shooting it from home. Yeah. Which is even the usage, you know, socials usage is so high because they'll say, you know, we want to put half a million ad spend behind it. and you say okay well it's 10 % for the usage whereas in modeling it's just there's nowhere near that sort of budget which I think is fascinating so I get a lot of models who are kind of starting to twig onto that saying you know what should I be doing to build my socials presence and I always say I think the days of just posting you know perfectly curated images even modeling images if I share a modeling shot to my Instagram it gets about five likes yeah no one cares seeing it before it's boring unless it is completely out there and breaks the mold if it's just like I sent my agencies today I've just done a campaign for Hawaiian Tropic for example and they're really commercial and they buy the pool and they're lovely and gorgeous and they're great for my portfolio but I'm not going to share them on socials because it's just boring so I always say to people who reach out you know just forget trying to be so curated and focus more on being yourself yeah authentic and show your personality yeah and people always say oh but then clients won't book me if I've you know got no makeup on and I'm in my trackies but they will and I think there's a fear of being too real yeah being too authentic because the industry is so polished yeah but I think we're really moving away from that because it's boring it's so boring yeah I don't want perfection

34:16i had an interesting conversation the other day actually about i think it was asos i was reading an article i'm pretty sure it was asos and they um had shared some stats on their roi from booking a curve versus a straight size and how much more the straight size sells right on the same item and you can't really argue with that no because they've got to make money because they've got to stay afloat yeah so many companies are going under yeah and if they're looking at it and saying okay if i put these jeans on a size 8 we sell 10 000 items if i put them on a size 18 we sell 1000 items they've got business to run it's difficult to make an argument against that and i get a lot of people also saying you know why don't brands particularly new brands stock all these massive sizes and again because they can't afford to no and because they don't sell they don't sell they can't afford the warehousing there's not enough supply and demand it's yeah it is very tricky it's a rock and a hard place and I do appreciate that and what now are some of the mental health pressures that you see in in young models I'm seeing a lot of the agencies um particularly a couple of the agencies that I'm with just signing girls again who are smaller and smaller and smaller and I think there really needs to be more onus on getting it right this time because if that's the way that the industry is trending and that's what clients are going to want and we're going to want smaller bodies again then how do we support those young girls that you're signing who were me 19 years ago yeah with zero support yeah how are we making sure that they're healthy and they're naturally absolutely yeah yeah because some people are naturally slim but a lot of people are not and they feel the pressure the weight of the world yeah yeah i think there should be more that's being done in terms of model workshops you know you get your new faces in you teach them how to walk you teach them how to do their digis but are you teaching them about their mental well-being are you getting people in to talk about body confidence and self-acceptance and self-esteem and how to understand yourself and understanding that yes you're going to be a model and the way you look is going to be a big part of what you do but it's not the be all and end all and it's not the most important element of your life you know but I think that is so important having that mother agency or whatever that is I mean it's taking the name you know other agency and you know they've got to because also when they're modeling you know if you're young and you're modeling at a high level like that you're you're on a plane half the time you're not with people that you can really have you know conversations about that kind of things with you're meeting your different people on set every day you're going in and out of different agencies I think it's so important that whoever is the mother agent to these models is giving them that advice and is checking in on them constantly and making sure that they're okay.

36:59Yeah, I couldn't agree more. And I think there's a lot of bookers who maybe don't take that responsibility as seriously as they should, because you are that person who is there to advocate for them. Absolutely. But also, I'm a big advocate of having another career, like, you know, encouraging them, what else do you want to do you know this is great let's make the most of this now but have something else even just outside of modeling I think we should be teaching everyone to have multiple income trees I think that's really important yeah but particularly with modeling because there's so many dips and troughs you know I can be back to back making tens of thousands of pounds a month and then not book anything for six months and if that was my only income yeah that would be terrifying and what happens then is you've got all this pressure on it so you don't even enjoy it whereas when you've got other things going on and you know that your bills are paid like you say you've got all the other things that you're passionate about and figuring out what makes you happy and following that then you don't have the same pressure on yourself and on your agents and you're not constantly you know where's the next booking from because it's not a nice place to work from no no it's not and also when you're on option for you know an amazing job and then you suddenly get a call going oh sorry babe they don't want you that's literally my experience right now so I've been on option for two weeks for a massive job that flies out on Sunday we're now filming this it's Wednesday and every day they're saying please hold the option we really love her she's one of our favorites but they're just not confirming it and it's huge and it's a huge payer and even at my level in the industry 19 years in I know there's every chance it's not going to come off but you live with this constant cycle of disappointment and I think what that does if you do it from a young age is it makes you incredibly resilient because I know if I get a call when I come out of here and turn my phone off flight mode and if I've got a call you've been released okay you gotta dust yourself off and you're on to the next one but i can do that because i've got those other streams as well what advice would you give to models who may be struggling with you know comparison or rejection oh comparison one of my favorite topics i think it's about knowing your own worth and i still get caught up in this so firstly give yourself a bit of grace it's the most important thing in the world there's actually a really interesting study done throw a bit of psychology in and it was with monkeys and they had to do a task and then the researcher gave them the reward so this first monkey does his task and the researcher gives him a slice of cucumber and he's so happy with his cucumber he's you know buzzing he loves his cucumber and then the next monkey comes along sits next to him does the same task and gets given a grape which for the monkeys the grape is like the ultimate treat so this first monkey who 10 seconds prior before seeing this other monkey get given the grape was so happy with his cucumber so happy with this cucumber throws the cucumber in the researcher's face because he now wants a grape because he's looking at the person next to him and in this industry when you've been given a cucumber there will always be someone who's been given a grape but you've really got to know your own worth and stay in your own lane and i always say this as well about fees and rates you know your booker will always say to you, do not discuss rates on set.

40:04But we do. Everyone discusses rates. It's just the way it goes. And quite often you will realise that someone else is on a higher rate or someone else is on a lower rate. And I always say to young models coming through, you've just got to know what rate you're happy and comfortable doing that job for. If you don't know anyone else's rates, what's the number that you're okay to say yes for? And if the job is lower than that, then say no and know your worth. I'm forever saying that's not a high enough rate. Can we negotiate? and you can do that like you know it's your yeah it's your business and your bookers are there to work with you and if you treat it with that and you say it in a respectful way you can say that rate doesn't meet my needs can we explore you know increasing the rate yeah so i think that's something as well a young model kind of coming in that doesn't really understand how it works they think they work for their agency yeah and actually it's you know it's a partnership yeah It's got to be that mutual respect.

40:57And you need to be able to have those open conversations. You shouldn't just be saying yes to make your agent happy. Because I used to do that for years. And I'd say, yes, I'll do that for£800, even though it should be£1 ,600. And then I'd be there and I would feel like, why am I only being paid X? Because I didn't use my voice. Because I didn't stand up for myself and say, shouldn't that be higher with that usage? Or just having an open conversation about it. And sometimes your booker will say, that's all the client's got. That's the budget. Can you do it? and you can say no if you want to say no and that's okay and no one's going to not book you again because of that no one's going to think less of you but also it's not comparing yourself to someone who for example has been in the industry forever and knows all of these things who might be on a higher rate because there's so many variables and if you were happy with your slice of cucumber then just be happy with your slice of cucumber yeah yeah that's really good advice um so you've built a really strong um online presence now um how do you stay authentic when you're working for brands?

41:55I'm very choosy with which brands I work with I guess kind of off the back of what we were just saying I'm very very happy to say no and probably twice a week I do say no to things I mean the biggest one at the moment I keep getting is uh a Zenpik commercials there's one that came through the other day and it was about 12 ,000 pounds and it was the role was this person has been on a Zenpik and then you're the after of them like living a healthy life whilst on the journey to losing more and that's just so far removed from what I do online and it's not to say that I have a problem with the weight loss jobs I think there's a whole conversation around that but the way it's interpreted with modelling would not be in my hands the way the director wants to interpret that would be completely out of my control yeah so for me that's a firm no yeah and I don't care if you want to pay me a hundred thousand pounds it's a firm no so I think you will make more money and be more successful if you do stay true yeah and if you're willing to say no.

42:47And it's the same with social media. I get brands reach out quite often that are just not quite in alignment. They're just not quite right. And it'll be a really big budget. And actually, if you start doing that, then you'll put off brands that you do want to work with possibly. You've got to see the bigger picture of it. So I think for me, it's just, again, being able to say no, staying really true to my purpose because I know what it is. So I think if you're really clear on what it is you're trying to achieve and the content you put out is around that, then you tend to attract the right brands as well.

43:14Yeah, yeah. And what do you think brands are really looking for from content creators now? Oh, good question. I think relatability is everything. The people I follow on social media are the people who, when I meet them in real life, they're the exact same person as they are on social. So quite often I'll bump into people who follow me and they'll say, oh, you're just like you are on socials. And it's like they expect me to be a different version of myself. But because I show up on socials the good the bad and the ugly and I show up you know looking a hot mess and I show up when I'm crying and I show up when I get released on a big job and I'm devastated um a that makes my job so much easier because I have to pretend to be something I'm not but it also attracts the brands and people buy into that as well that's what sells people feel like they know you and yeah if you go on socials every day and you're flogging a different bra and like different brands constantly looking immaculate and you're always trying to sell voice on and yeah and this has got 20 off and no no what works is and i always have to remind myself of this if i'm doing like a voiceover or something is speaking as you would speak to your friends that's why molly may is so successful because she's so unbelievably normal that's it people always ask me what's her superpower and i say she's normal she's just really really normal and people relate to that people relate to the struggles that she's going through she makes mistakes.

44:37She fails. She owns up to it. And that's really endearing. She's very likable because she's so normal. But she hasn't got a superpower. She's just worked really hard and she's made an incredible brand out of just being that girl next door, normal girl. And how can talent use their social media to really show individuality rather than just copying other things that they've seen? Yeah, I think you've got to really figure out who you are and what makes you happy. because like I say, if you're going to do this all day, every day as your career, you really want to be able to be yourself. So figure out what it is that you're passionate about and the things that you enjoy talking about.

45:15You know, if you're skincare obsessed, then your account should be beauty. You know, I don't do as much fashion because I see people who do fashion reels every single day and, you know, they're ordering a massive haul from ASOS and trying it on. And I just think, I haven't got that in me. That doesn't excite me. And if it doesn't excite me, then I'm not going to stick at it for long enough. Yeah. And I think that's so important. You've got to find a niche that you are really passionate about and you want to keep going because it's a long game, isn't it? Being a content creator. It is. It really is.

45:45Yeah. Some people explode overnight, but most people don't. And how much control do you have over a brand's brief? Another reason that I say no quite often because I see the brief and I just think, no, because it's not going to perform. And if it doesn't perform and you don't get the sales. Then they're going to go, oh, she was rubbish. Exactly. And there's just nothing in it for either of us and it's just a money grab for me so i i have a lot of brands i work with who give me full creative freedom because what i do works they will then it's nice when brands i just work with them knickerbox actually i'm gonna be working with them more in 2026 and they're all um they're and summers little sister company so they do and summers and then loads of other brands as well on their gorgeous lingerie and pajamas chelsea purse pajamas all that kind of thing and they when they put in their references as to what they were looking for they were all my videos and I thought that is such a nice touch because you obviously really appreciate what I do yeah and you are you know referencing me so that I can just then go on to recreate how I already move and then sometimes occasionally you get briefs through that are just so rigid and so far removed from what you do that it just isn't going to make any sense on your grid and you already know it's not going to perform.

46:55So it's difficult. But yeah, it really varies brand to brand. But the brands that I work with on an ongoing basis tend to give me an awful lot of creative freedom. And that's when it works.

47:10What led you to start the Curveball podcast? So my model friend Kayleigh, who is also a curve model, hounded me basically to do a podcast with her. And I was like, absolutely not, because a podcast is an awful lot of work and I don't have the capacity for it at the moment. So I said no to her for about 12 months and then she basically runs all of the business side of it and I do the production. So you just have to turn up and perform. I mean I write all the episodes and I do the pre-production and the post-production so there is still quite a lot but I do the bits that I enjoy. I didn't want to have to take on another business and a social media account and everything else because when I'm busy I'm really at capacity and I think the point I'm at in my career now I'm very conscious of just not saying yes all the time so tell us about the podcast so we started when did we start filming about this time last year so october last year we started filming season one and we're just in the middle of filming season two now and it is a very relatable it's called curveball the podcast two curve models but really it's not about that it's women in their 30s and all the things that we go through kaylee was single when we first started filming so there was hilarious dating stories.

48:17I heard that. Yeah, it's great. We talk about therapy. We just talk about our life experiences up until this point. And the feedback that we get is always very much that it feels like being on the sofa with your friends and it's very heartwarming and makes you feel a bit less alone. And we just try to keep it as real as we possibly can. Yeah. Which conversations have resonated most with your listeners? It's just, I guess, the fact that you guys just sit and talk really openly and yeah do you want me to be really honest yeah anytime we talk about sex we just get so many listens because i think people are so curious yeah and a lot of the time we have the conversations that people aren't gonna have themselves with their friends but they're thinking about yeah and we don't hold back it's just it is just hilarious but we i think sometimes we forget we're filming and then we watch them back and i'm like we didn't say that I didn't say that.

49:07But, you know, again, it's just about that authenticity. And I think my audience from my social media really enjoy it because they get to see just that really unfiltered version of me where I'm completely relaxed and I'm on the couch with a cup of tea. So yeah, just very relatable is the word that I would use. You have also launched online body confidence courses. What inspired that side of your work? I think I get so many messages every single day from women asking very specific questions or telling me, you know, where they're at with their journey and asking for help. And I don't always have the capacity to help people in the way that I would like to in an Instagram message.

49:45You know, I will always try to reply and I'll always try and send a voice note back and help them with that little bit. But then I feel like I'm just not doing enough because I know that they really need hours and hours and hours and they really need to dig on all these different areas. And so I thought, how can I put my psychology, my life experience, all of this expertise that I've built up and all the incredible conversations I've had with people over the years into something that is tangible that you can log in and do in your own time. And a course made the most sense. So I have an online body confidence course.

50:17I'm also working on a new course, which is more about overall confidence and being able to show up in your life in the way that you want to show up and just having the confidence to go for it versus is just your body. There's still a body confidence element in there, but it's more about your energy and your presence and your action and things like that. And what format does that take? So it's, the body confidence course is 10 video modules and they're about 20 minutes each and you have lifetime access. So you can log in and do that at your own pace. And there's, you know, it's very hands-on and interactive.

50:47So there's tasks in there, kind of not homework, because I don't like that work but things for you to go away and work on um because with confidence it is about building blocks so you can listen to it all you like but until you go away and take actionable steps like a really small one that comes to mind is learning to accept compliments right so one task that i might set you is when someone gives you a compliment this week thank you say thank you that's it nothing else you don't use anything else we don't we go you know someone says oh it's a nice jumper or something we go oh god yeah we do it's all it's all it needs the roots need doing it's our knee-jerk reaction to completely reject the compliment yeah and then what we do is we teach our brain that we're not worthy of compliments so by just saying thank you and sitting in your discomfort over time you get to a point where you can just say thank you and actually start to believe it so there's so many little things in there and actionable takeaways but of course just felt like the right format for it to be hands-on and accessible for everyone.

51:48Yes, yes. That was the main thing that I wanted. And then I also do e-books and sort of lower ticket things that, you know, if you've only got£10 to spend but you really want to just work on your confidence right now, then here's an e-book with kind of everything that's on my heart and again lots of actionable takeaways as well. And what kind of feedback do you get from that? Do you get feedback on your socials? Yeah, I do. I get amazing feedback. I actually have a folder in my phone called Keep Going and it's screenshots of all the feedback that I do get where people say hi so if I just wanted you to know and they always say I bet you won't see this and I always see it I see everything and they'll say bet you won't see this but I just wanted you to know I'm on holiday and I'm wearing a bikini for the first time in 10 years and I feel great and it's just amazing and actually my screensaver on my phone is my vision board of what I wanted to achieve this year and within that screensaver is some of those messages because they mean the world and when I'm having a day or a week or a month where I don't really feel like it and I'm not particularly motivated or I don't feel great or I've just been rejected on a massive modelling job or whatever it is that's getting to me, life, that folder is what encourages me to keep going and reminds me that what I'm doing is important and is worthwhile when it feels like it's not sometimes.

53:02How do you stay motivated? One of the biggest things that keeps me motivated is exercise and the gym. If I do not go to the gym and lift weights, I am a terror. And I mean, mentally, I cannot find the clarity and the focus that I need without some form of movement. And it doesn't have to be the gym. It doesn't have to be weights. But I think for everyone, finding a way to move your body that allows you to get rid of the anxiety and everything else that is just all this pent up tension, movement, walking is just so, so good for that. So I think in terms of physical motivation getting up out of bed in the morning it's the gym for me that's a real passion and it's something that I really encourage people to do as part of their body confidence journey as well because fitness and well-being is not just for people in smaller bodies you know you don't have to be a size eight to be in the gym everyone belongs there and everyone has the right to move their body absolutely because I think people think that as well that everyone in a gym is super fit It has to be really slim.

54:03Yeah. I don't go to the gym to lose weight. I go to the gym to stay sane. Yeah. Healthy as well. Yeah. And I always encourage people that on social media, I always say, you know, move your body today for your mind. It doesn't have to be about getting three inches off your waist. It can be about just feeling clearer and having that time for yourself. Mel Robbins, who I love listening to, she has this thing, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, go. Yes. And I use it all the time. Yes, me too. And I'm like, I don't want to go to the gym. And I'm like, I'll be bothered getting in the shower. and I'm like five second rule, get up, off you pop.

54:33And it works. Yeah, just don't think about it. I think if you rely on motivation, it's very difficult to get anything done in your life. You rely on habits and routines and discipline. Then regardless of how you feel, that's not really the point because this is what you said you were going to do. So go and do it. I think the other thing with motivation is doing something that you genuinely enjoy and have purpose behind. Because for me, my motivation is to help other women find that self-acceptance. and I feel like there's almost a duty of care in that I spent such a long time hating myself and hating my body that now I've kind of cracked the code.

55:09I really want to help as many women as possible do that as well because the way I live now is so freeing. You know, I don't really think about my body much. I can walk past the mirror naked and not look at it and rip it apart. It's just a body and it helps me every day and it's strong and I'm grateful for it, but there's no attachment to it either way I'm not like oh my god I'm so sexy but I'm also not like why you boob so saggy you know there's none of that and I think that is where I want all women to get to because it's just a place of so much freedom so that's my motivation I guess if 15 year old Sophie came in and you were helping her now what would you say to her I think I would really try and encourage her to just not care so much about what everyone else thinks, not do things at the expense of her mental health to make other people happy.

56:05Because I spent a really long time putting other people's needs before mine, saying yes to things that I knew I didn't want to do. And I would just encourage her to really think about, you know, who she is and who she wants to be and what makes her happy rather than comparing herself to everyone else trying to be like everyone else I think so much of teenage angst and what girls struggle with is that they just want to be like everyone else they just want to fit in and so they never feel like enough so I think 15 year old Soph I would really encourage her to embrace the things that make her different and help her see that she's good enough and she's a good enough person regardless of the way she looks and what size jeans she's wearing and what's the best advice you've been given in this industry I think it's all about your attitude I have seen so many beautiful models come and go because they've got a bad attitude and the reason you will get rebookings is because you're a decent person because you're a delight to have on set because you offer to make a brew because you help the lighting guy move his box you know you're not above anyone because you're a model you are there to do a job and I think if you walk in set and you think that you're better than everyone you're not going to have a very long career so the best piece of advice I've been given and the best piece of advice I can give you is to treat everyone equally work hard and just have the right attitude towards it because your attitude is what will see you have a career that spans decades and you never know who you're working with you never know who's going to be casting that next job industry yeah it's very small industry so just be a good person Sophie thank you so much thank you

57:47Sophie Hughes, model, creator and advocate for authentic body confidence, reminding us that confidence isn't about perfection, but perspective. Thank you for listening.