Susannah Boughtflower, Founder of Kids on Set

0:02Welcome to the Business of Modelling, the podcast where we explore the fascinating world of the modelling industry. I'm Tessa Dewing, Managing Director of Sandra Reynolds, a commercial model agency celebrating its 50th year of business. Today, I'm delighted to be joined by Susannah Boughtflower, who is the founder of Kids On Set. she is also referred to as the baby whisperer and with over 20 years in the industry susanna is widely regarded as one of the uk's most experienced and trusted child wranglers in film and photography and if you're listening and thinking what exactly is a child wrangler that's a question most people haven't had answered yet even inside the industry let's meet susanna and find out So Susanna, welcome to the Business of Modelling.

0:59It's lovely to have you here. Lovely to be here. How did you first find your way into working with children and what did your early years look like?

1:09Susannah Boughtflower: So my early years, I was that person who ran away with the circus. So I worked in circus, ran contemporary circus at festivals and an entertainment company, also children's entertainment. my brothers are both in the film industry so my brother's a film producer um and he was working with kids quite a lot and I went on set with him as a runner at first and did a bit of second and then there were kids on set and I really noticed that there was no one for the kids and I'm I'm just drawn to kids and that's always been my thing I love hanging out with kids and making sure they're having fun so I just kind of started to be brought on whenever there was kids be there for the kids and um yeah that's how it started really tell me about circus what did you do in the circus so I went to circus school rather than university and trained and then worked around a contemporary circus and we did festivals and yeah so did that and it feels like a lifetime ago now but that's kind of where my life started my work life started yeah and I did acrobatics acrobalance balancing people on my head some people somersaulting off my shoulders ladder walking where ladder's not attached to anything laying on a bed of nails still walking fire eating yeah how does that how do you suddenly think I want to join a circus was it was it in your family always always no it was just me really that's all I wanted to do one of the kids books Hetty feather isn't it an emerald star I was literally that child I was like I'm running away to the circus and then I ran away from the circus oh you know I mean I after a while I was like what a normal job yeah yeah yeah I can't imagine it's a very a career with much longevity I don't know I guess I mean I ran an agency for circus performers yeah which I still run yeah so I book how entertainment and that kind of is where the blur comes across.

3:14Were you that kid that was just constantly doing cartwheels and handstands and things?

3:19Susannah Boughtflower: Yeah I think it was more just the dream I just really wanted to work in circus I was you know I was I was good at all you know sort of cartwheels and things like that but it was more a dream and I spoke to a friend when everyone was going off to university and I didn't know what to do with myself and said I don't know what to do and she said, if you could do anything, what would you do? I said, I'd work in the circus. And she went, go to circus school. And I applied, got in and got a job straight from circus school. I started in traditional circus and then started my own contemporary circus and we moved into Glastonbury and did lots of festivals and that's kind of where we ended up, me producing shows and directing shows.

4:04Was there a moment when you realised that it was a real specialism working with children and how did that sort of come about?

4:11Susannah Boughtflower: I kept being brought onto set whenever there was kids and to direct them in front of the camera as well as look after them off set. And then a friend of mine who's... And this was more in filming at this point. Yeah, this was in filming, yeah. So a friend of mine who is an American director, Laurie, he just pointed out that in America, nobody shoots without a child wrangler or a baby wrangler. and nobody even on that set that day knew what a child or baby wrangler was and I was like really they said yeah this is a job this could be your job you're great at it you make all the difference like so I did a bit of research and uh yeah so tell us what is a child wrangler very good question lots of people don't know what a child wrangler is so you wouldn't really shoot animals on set without an animal wrangler.

5:00Susannah Boughtflower: So it's the same really with kids, and especially babies. They're very unpredictable. So a child wrangler goes onto the set of film, TV, fashion, and commercial and gets the best out of the kids. So we'll arrive on set, we'll be the person that meets the children, we'll bend down, we'll meet the child, we'll make them feel welcome, we'll take them into the green room, we'll have games, whether that be drama, lead games bonding games if you want group shots or just things to keep them off screens kind of you know board games drawing anything to keep them having a lovely time throughout the day regulating their energy not having them running around and then once they're needed on set we are their movement directors and we have qualified movement directors of ma's in movement direction and they go on set and we direct them and we get whatever it is working alongside the crew and the director and production to get the best out of the kids in front of the camera.

6:04Some people would say well surely a parent can do that.

6:07Susannah Boughtflower: Yeah I think people might think that but parents don't get how set works and sometimes parents can get in the way. Sometimes parents aren't needed on set, Sometimes someone who understands when to come in, when to step out, when to not get underneath other people's feet. And also a child reacts a lot better. The things we do on set is very calm and it's all about getting a natural look. Most of the time in modelling, it's just that moment of thought that a lot of the clients like. So we're asking them questions where they're thinking and then that's the moment. Parents wouldn't know how to do that.

6:49Susannah Boughtflower: And also a child doesn't do what a parent says at the end of the day. And a parent doesn't understand. You know, they're going, oh, do that pose that you do in the mirror at home. And it's not a natural pose. A million miles away than, you know, for what the client's looking for. And that's what we're trying to head away from. You know, it used to be quite contrived. And a child who hasn't modelled before will often walk on set and have a big beaming grin or do a very contrived kind of look that they've seen. And it doesn't. It's not what's needed. We want natural, calm, realistic, homely kind of images.

7:22Susannah Boughtflower: And that's where we come in. Do you almost put the parent in a green room? Yeah, I think one of the first things I'll do on set is I will stand aside and I will kind of look and see how everyone works together. I'll look at the set. I'll look at the parents. I'll look at the kids. I'll see if they're overexcited. I'll make sure they've eaten or make sure what they've asked what they've eaten make sure they had something healthy and kind of grounding make sure they don't have too much sugar get all the sugar put away and just see how everyone's working together sometimes you do get amazing parents who are super helpful and a lot of the time if a child wants like a baby may need their parent there and then I will work alongside the parent and I'm kind of I see myself as kind of a translator between what the crew need and what the parent and child need.

8:15Susannah Boughtflower: And I'll be telling them what the crew need and I'll be saying to the crew what the family needs or what the child needs. So you either get the parents who get really, really involved and they follow the child around and they're really helping and, you know, that can work both ways. Or you get some parents who just work on their laptop. And I kind of do say to parents, you know, your job is the chaperone. you know it's actually illegal for you to let your child be in the room there with just the photographer and the you know I know you believe they're safe and we all know they're safe but you have to be with your child you know in ice shot at all times please and I think that you know I think it's it's you know parents and kids it's a yeah it there's a you know it's a relationship and I really that's why sometimes if it is if it is a chaperone it can be a lot better but also there are some chaperones who also you wouldn't know they were there and you know they've got a very important important role to play and my chaperones you know they are fashion savvy they know how it works they they know what the child needs and they do so much more than some chaperones that are just kind of because also notoriously chaperones are paid horrendously and it is a very very important job and how you know some how some agencies you're paying a hundred pounds to a chaperone for a day you're their safeguard you're doing you know making sure that child has a great day it's so important making sure that they're not overused taking the timings down it's a huge job and they can have up to 12 children by themselves one chaperone I didn't know that really yeah okay so you and then how do you what do you do if one needs the loo you know so generally you know that's a conversation in itself so most people have the parents there which is you know sensible but the parents are not educated on what a chaperone actually does so that you know I I do like to educate parents when I meet them on what you know what their job is because it isn't just about have a sitting down having a cup of tea or getting and your laptop it is looking after the children.

10:34What are the biggest misconceptions about working with babies and children on set?

10:40Susannah Boughtflower: I would say the biggest misconception from production and clients is possibly that a child wrangler is a glorified babysitter or a chaperone. A lot of people don't know the difference between a chaperone and a child wrangler. A chaperone is there for safeguarding and to make sure there's someone with the child at all times. Between shots, yeah. Between shots and, you know, licensing, timings, all of that stuff. A child wrangler, we're there to direct the children, to regulate them through the day, to bond the children together. We may take them off on their own, leave the children with the chaperone.

11:19Susannah Boughtflower: So you do definitely need both or obviously a parent chaperone. biggest misconception I'd find for the kids is that the day is really exciting they're just going to be doing one shot and they might be told oh there's going to be a dragon in the image and I've heard kids kind of go where's the dragon and you're like well they're just pretending we're running away from a dragon it's not actually going to be here it's going to be put in later and then also having to repeat what they're doing. I think a lot of kids don't expect that. And so we're there to kind of regulate their energy, keep them happy.

11:56Susannah Boughtflower: You know, as they're waiting between shots, just, you know, I might just throw a ball to them, just play catch, just have them, just taking them out of their head, not letting them get overstimulised by the rest of the crew and then we'll just step back on and they'll be very grounded and ready and not bored. and parents I think the biggest misconception is possibly that they're not really working they kind of kind of say I can't believe they want us to stay same when we're not needed or you know and it's like you know you are being paid and you've got to be here the whole day and I do find I'm explaining that to parents quite often and with the client booking cute kids that it's going to be a good photograph and that doesn't always happen.

12:40Susannah Boughtflower: The kid may need a lot of a lot of help from the minute they walk in the door to getting on the set to having the photographs taken. From your perspective what makes a set child-friendly? Because presumably you come on very early in the process. Yeah so I generally know as soon as I walk in the door if a set is child friendly things like as soon as I go to the toilets seeing that they've labeled a toilet for the children which is necessary so I know that they know all the regulations that are in place having somebody set up for the timings whether that be a child monitor a chaperone or the second AD someone to take the timings and take them really seriously it's quite a hard job you know child can only be on set for a certain amount of time so it's then saying to myself or to the photographer you've only got two minutes and stylists to make up making sure they're ready yeah they've only got two minutes left while they're on set as well so might be doing really great shots but we and then sure they might want to do a bit longer and when they do adhere to those timings um and not push it which i'm finding nowadays people don't push it but people understand And that took an awful long time to educate clients in child licensing and how that all worked and how many hours they could be on set.

14:02Absolutely. Even now, people don't, you know, we have people calling all the time wanting to book children and they've never heard of licensing.

14:10Susannah Boughtflower: Absolutely. You know, my favorite shoots are when I'm on set and I've also got one of my child monitors or chaperones there who are there to do the timings. and then it's just a smooth, you know, and you know, when you walk in the door, they're like, what do you need? We've got a space for the kids. We've got a space for the babies. We've got someone taking the timings. You've got this long tail they're on set. You know, that is just, it's gold dust. Whereas sometimes, you know, you'll be chasing around, you know, and there's so much, you know, I understand everyone's got a job to do. There is so much to be done.

14:44Susannah Boughtflower: There's so many variables. It's not all about the kids, which it feels a little bit, to me it is because I know they've only got a window when it's when they're little where they might they're going to work in the next hour and nothing's ready but yeah that just being aware child-centered crew calm respectful um generous thoughtful that kind of yeah and can you do full production with your company or do you work alongside production we don't do full production but we have a full child-centred crew. So we've got stylists, tutors, chaperones, photographers, kid monitors. What else have we got? Hair and makeup artists.

15:25Susannah Boughtflower: Not sure if I said that. Obviously child wranglers, baby wranglers, movement directors. And then also movement directors that are, some are sporty, some are ballet, some are best for babies, some are best for older kids, some are best for younger kids. So we've also got an array of movement directors that suit to different shoots as well. Yeah. And where do you see things go wrong when productions don't have the right support in place? Often it's with babies when they're brought in a little bit too early or too late, actually, because I really like to shoot babies in the morning. I think that's the best time for them.

16:03Susannah Boughtflower: But that can't always be the way. And I understand that. but if they're brought in and we've kind of prepared with the parent or the carer that they've been fed that they've you know had milk or they've had their naps and they're totally ready and we've got this window an hour where they're going to be ready on set and then they're just not ready for them and that's when I find things can go wrong and we're like right we're going to have to have another nap and then speaking to the crew and kind of saying we might have to have another nap move this back put something first but generally people um do you um recommend that a client will put more than one baby if you're shooting babies yes absolutely and how do you explain that to them to be honest most people already know that most people have got a hero and a backup it's it you know i don't i don't see many clients just having one anymore um they'd always have a have you know even for you know or if it's just really important there would just definitely be a backup yeah yeah I guess you know the you have to think of the risk if something does happen and same with the kids you know we have had kids turning up and then being sick yeah um you know mum going they're fine I think they're fine they did feel a bit peaky oh they've just been sick yeah you know and then we're like really they've suddenly got come out in chicken pox yeah and all sorts like during covid you know there was just so many kind of things you know as walking in the door people getting tested and then yeah and I love the nickname baby whisperer where did that come from so the baby whisperer was was from other people um and I think what people saw was the calm that I brought to set and getting the job done really efficiently and within a lot shorter time than they were used to um so I think that's where that well that's where that name came from.

17:55What do you think is the most important thing when working with very young babies on set?

18:00Susannah Boughtflower: The most important thing for me is that they've got a dedicated space. I don't know if I did say that, that they've got a breakout room, even from the main green room where we've got the kids, when we've got one more room. And I know it's a lot to ask for if you're on location or something like that. But when we've got one more space where they can have a sleep, where there's nobody and the babies don't get overstimulised. Especially if it's a shoot with other children on you don't want the other children running around babies get so overstimulized so much quicker on set and I say to mums because a lot of mums now have got these you know these apps and they're like nope they don't have they don't need something to eat I don't think that's it they don't need something to eat until 11 and I'm like when they're on set they will be hungry earlier because they're being overstimulized and they will need a nap earlier and they're like oh wow they are hungry and uh yeah it's really interesting who called you the baby whisperer first like where did that happened I think it was probably um one of the directors I was working with through my brother I think it all came through then long time ago and we're talking 20 years ago now um so you've been doing this for a long time yeah yeah over 20 years now um so yeah I think it was back then when nobody had had help on set with babies and I love babies you know and I would just walk in and you know and I think just having one person there dedicated to the parent and the baby and not running around doing other things I think just that in itself helped at first and then you know just just working with all their timings I think yeah and just the fact that there was generally you know I started getting flown around the world doing baby stuff back then as well I got a lot a lot but at the time there was no bangers in Europe so I'd go over to Europe and do shoots with lots of babies and yeah and it just it all seemed to just work very well.

19:46Who are your main clients that you work with a lot?

19:50Susannah Boughtflower: So Zara has been our main our greatest client and we're so grateful we've been Zara's main wranglers for the last 10 years and Burberry, Stella McCartney, Stella Stella McCartney is always really fun. Lots of outside and horses or animals. We did one in the Barbican. There's this huge, if you've ever been there, there's like an indoor garden and it's just like being in the Amazon. It's absolutely beautiful. We work for Gucci. I've just got a new client, but I'm not sure I've got to say because I've just signed an NDA. So I probably won't say that until it's done next week. We work for scalpers.

20:30Susannah Boughtflower: we work for yeah those are our main ones there are bread and butter adidas uh disney there are kind of every you know yeah frequent bookers and does your work come through word of mouth i'd say it probably does i think yeah i think so i mean we i when i first started and i was saying my brother was a producer and he was giving me loads of contacts more in the commercial in world um so i was contact i did a lot of commercials at the beginning and then i had a friend who worked for a fashion photographers agency and she before gdpr gave me lots and lots of emails a long time ago and i just contact and that is where i got i started working for h &m and i started working for zara and that is where those those clients came from but now i would say it's all word of mouth

21:31you must have some funny stories some funny set stories you can tell us having to get a baby to lick a window having to get a baby to climb into a washing machine

21:42Susannah Boughtflower: oh all on the same advert actually they were they wanted they had about 30 babies so they were like if it doesn't work with that one get another one so they only had to have the one baby do it no or did they have them all crawling around they wanted it to look like the babies it was kind of like it was shot on your phone and it kind of like was like bloopers of a dad like with his baby who can't look after the baby properly oh the baby's looking in the window oh the baby's coming in the washing machine oh the baby's eating mud and the vegetable patch so it was like right we want you to get the baby and it was yeah it was a lot and there was a lot the babies needed to do but yeah we got there in the end 26 shots 26 babies that day yeah and is there any more getting flown to china and um yeah i mean it was it was quite an interesting you know just being on set in china is very different to being on set here you know the loo was a hole in the floor and i was like i was not expecting it and the you know there's no air con and it was boiling so were the kids from here or from china All Chinese babies, just me flown in to wrangle them.

22:53Susannah Boughtflower: And they want exactly what they wanted. And they had a very slight model who was to be the mother. And she had to pick the baby up and hold the baby above her head. And we must have done that shot. She just couldn't lift the baby. Her arms were not strong enough and they wouldn't change anything. So we ended up, we had a green screen. So we ended up just getting these green boxes. I mean, how big was the baby? It wasn't even that big. But the girl was tiny. And she just, so in the end, we had all these green boxes so that we could sort of just have her lifting the baby just a tiny little bit. Just sit in the last bit and then take out.

23:33Oh, no.

23:34Susannah Boughtflower: Luckily, the babies were good as gold. But this poor model was getting so upset, she just could not lift the babies. And I was thinking, you might have to change it. And they were like, no, we will do it. And she was getting so tired, poor girl. Oh, no.

23:51Susannah Boughtflower: how do you see ai affecting econ with kids yeah i mean i think it's already coming in we are getting emails about certain shoots being shot and then they'll be recreated so we'll do lots of shots that day and then the clothes will be then put on later so we are definitely having AI is starting to come in and um for a few brands and I I do think you know it worried me for a bit but I still think most people will want to do these really amazing shoots that we do sort of you know location shoots and things like that I think people that will will really stay and people put more money into those but I do think with e-com it will start and I can see you can see it aren't you already yeah um so yeah there will be a little bit less of that

24:47sets obviously are super high pressured and and hot and and fast paced when do you get brought into the process how early in an ideal world how early would you want to get brought

24:59Susannah Boughtflower: into the process i love being at castings i love being able to help choose the kids because i think sometimes we're just choosing the cutest kids which is obviously what's needed but it is really nice if it's a for a commercial or for something where they need to act that I can really cast help cast that kid someone who can do it who I know is also going to be able to cope with the length of the day um you know I think yeah so I think coming in on the castings are just the best I think with casting as well with children, obviously so much has gone to self-tape now. But with young children, it's so difficult to assess them when they're being filmed in their own home because they're going to be comfortable there.

25:47You know, it's completely different with older children and adults because they're adaptable, aren't they? But, you know, you can have them looking really great on a tape at home, but take them out of that environment and they're completely different. They're just completely like deer in headlights.

26:02Susannah Boughtflower: The other thing that happens quite a lot is that they'll want a baby that doesn't crawl yet. And so they'll cast the baby. And then by the time the shoot happens. And then by the time the shoot comes. They go, put the baby on the tummy and it's just like that. It's gone. And you're like, oh, it wasn't crawling. And you're like, yeah. so that and the other thing that happens quite a lot is um surprisingly is for milk commercials it's solely breastfed babies yeah and then they're like give them a bottle yeah and you're like they've never had one and i've had a few times i was in portugal where the mum wasn't there and it was a solely breastfed baby oh what no mum just let the baby go yeah i was like with the dad Oh, God.

26:52I was like, we're going to need to get them. They thought, oh, this is a good opportunity. We'll do it here. Yeah.

26:57Susannah Boughtflower: And we had to get the mum to come back. The poor baby was starving. You wouldn't take a bottle. No. And the other thing, of course, is teeth, isn't it? Yeah. The castler ones. They turn out with a big smile and they've got no teeth. Exactly. I love it. I really love it. Because, you know, you see the casting come through and then you're like, this is quite a way on. Yeah. You know, let's just see how this works. But yeah, we always make it work, which I love as well. I kind of, in a way, I like those challenges. Yeah, yeah. And how do you manage expectations with the client when a child's needs perhaps don't align with the schedule?

27:34Susannah Boughtflower: If they're getting too upset and they need a break, generally they will let them have a break. Or if something's, if they don't want to do something, pretty much nowadays, you know, I do feel that there's been a real movement. um you know sometimes I do say there's been a me too movement for the kids because it really has changed there was such a you know kids weren't looked after brilliantly a long time ago and that's I'd turn up to shoots and I'd have parents coming saying we weren't going to come back today because yesterday we were left on a bus all day or we were cold or you know and so there's been a real change in how kids are treated so if there is something that I don't like or I'm not happy about and I go and tell production or tell the crew generally everybody wants to just make sure that the kids are you know are looked after and are happy and are doing only what they want to do.

28:30Susannah Boughtflower: Obviously with with the shoot that is completely child-centric they will tend to have a really good crew that's that specialize in shooting and working with kids maybe on a commercial shoot where they've just got a kid as part of the cast you don't see that so much do you the child is just expected to just slot in and behave like an adult and you've got a photographer that doesn't really engage and yeah yeah so and that's where a wrangler is going to be essential even more definitely definitely um there's far more awareness now especially from the global brands um good ethical practice and good results go hand in hand basically so there has just been a really great change I mean from when I began to now it's I mean obviously I'm on the shoots where they've got a wrangler so generally they're really thinking ahead and they're wanting that they're wanting the best for the child so I don't see everything else but I do I really think now yeah everybody's really changed and I'm really pleased about that.

29:31Susannah Boughtflower: And you must have done years ago when before you were doing this when you were just working on productions which obviously is why you started doing what you're doing. And I saw you know I saw that there was nobody there for the kids and it did upset me a little bit. You know, I kind of thought, because there's somebody to do everything on set, isn't there? There's so many people. I just thought somebody has to be there for the welfare of these children. No, absolutely. And licensing, I mean, obviously, it can be a nightmare as an agency, licensing children, because you're dealing with different councils that decide if they're going to do it for you on different days.

30:07I think that there would be a more efficient way of doing it however it is what it is and I think where it has been brilliant is having the set hours yeah that the children can work you know they can't just have a young child on set all day you know which is what used to happen I think

30:24Susannah Boughtflower: and council do come more often yeah now I don't know if you found that yeah they do pop in and you know kind of educate us as well there and kind of say to the mum you know were you with your child when I walked in or you know are you you know to me because they'll kind of say to me you're a child wrangler they'll think I'm a chaperone I'll be like I'm not the chaperone so I you know and I'm educating them at the same time but yeah it's good I think that they sometimes do come in and people are really aware now with the timings they're so much better um so I think that's really really good so for brands and production teams um what is the risk of them not using a child wrangler?

31:04Susannah Boughtflower: Having a wrangler on set adds so much value. I've been told constantly, and most people who try it once, have, you know, never shoot without one. We protect the shoot, we reduce risk, we prevent delays, we support the child or the children, we reassure the parents, we help productions get the shot without any drama, and in real terms, we save money. And sometimes I'm pulled in when they've realised that they're not going to get the kids to do what they want to do and you can see the kids running around eating sugar um annoying the crew and you know the clothes dirty yeah you know someone's there and mom's there with red sweet dribbling down there and i'm like right come on everybody i'm like a big nurturing nest come in calm down take a breath let's do something really grounding let's eat a piece of fruit and let's you know prepare ourselves and and I think when kids have got a focal point I see it with all kids not just on set adults are super busy and when they have the sole focus of an adult they just love it you know where I'm just like I'm here for you I'm here for you what you need let's have fun I'm really super fun and silly and I've got something in my pocket that suddenly squeaks or I've got something that does this or I've got a ball you know straight away they're just you know it's this magical kind of pied piper they just are like you know but also they're bonding with all the other children you know you can't just get one child from over there one over there stand them on a backdrop and go right you two pretend to your brother and sister and have a hug yeah and i know that beforehand so i'm like all right they've got to have a hug and they've got to hold hands this boy and girl or they've got to dance you know and you might have kids walking on set and and i go you're gonna have to have a little dance or or maybe i won't even tell them first and just have a little warm up and you know get everyone relaxed and shaken out and do some drama games do some name pong get everyone knowing what they're doing and then by the time they're on set they can't take their hands off no they don't want to go all over each other they're best friends you know a lot of the time they literally make best friends in the day but also if you've got adult models as well that are going to have to work with those children getting them in and getting them to be comfortable because again you might have to have a child that has to go on pretend dad's shoulders or something you know yeah if you're gonna make that fun to start with yeah I'll be grabbing that dad and being like could we could you just sit and play snap with us for a minute um so he gets to know you because he doesn't know you from Adam and he's not going to want to go on your shoulders until we've done this and you know most models will always be like yeah of course yeah and they're always super fun as well and make them feel really welcome so that's lovely as well yeah what advice would you give to parents um whose child is stepping onto set for the first time like they've never done anything before what would you if you gave them sort of a checklist sheet on what their responsibility should be i would always say your child's well-being definitely comes first always ask questions trust your instincts work with people who see your child as a human being and not as a commodity.

34:14Susannah Boughtflower: I think for me, that is so important. If you aren't comfortable on set or there's something you don't like, absolutely vocalise it. Absolutely say, this is not acceptable. If you are asked to do more time than you are expected, you say and you let them know, this is not acceptable. So yeah, I'd say that is my advice and just explaining to the kids and knowing as a parent your kid is working your child is at work so it is going to be a long day get a good night's sleep before make sure they've eaten something healthy make sure they've had breakfast if you haven't when you get to set have some breakfast they may say they're not hungry but they really need to have some substance they need to drink water throughout the day please steer away from fizzy drinks please steer away from sugar maybe at the end of the day you know let's crack open some chocolate if they're not dairy intolerant and have a bit of chocolate if we just need a little pick me up in the afternoon but yeah steering away from sugar steering away from um and just if you know if you haven't got a wrangler there and you are doing it by yourself just regulating that child trying to keep them off a screen as much as you can um you know bring some activities for them to do loom bands is a winner it's a bit like knitting and they can get so into it and I think it takes them away from being on set and what's going on and I see some especially if they're neurodiverse they will just sit and do loom bands and be happy the length of the room the length of the studio and I'll be like how long can you do it or coloring with pencils yeah exactly clean coloring clean arts and crafts just anything don't you know try not to let your kids sit on a screen well yeah because then that's a problem if you want to try and get them off then isn't it and you probably need to then loosen them up each time once they've been locked into that screen i won't allow screens just if i can i do have parents saying saying i can't do it we can't do it without which you know i'll obviously not be i'll discuss with the parent how it works best but once they have been on a screen we see it in the eyes in the shot they're not completely there they're still kind of away with that element they were with before.

36:32Susannah Boughtflower: So it's about, you know, and that's where I'll have a ball straight away and have to catch something, use their fine motor skills, use the different parts of their brain and that will hopefully bring them back out and wake those eyes back up again so we can get those natural shots. From an agency point of view, what do you value most in how agencies prepare children and families before a job? Honesty, preparation, clear communication um when families are properly and fully briefed everybody wins including me including the client you know so I think when they know what that's expected of them I do find a lot of people are kind of say well we're we I think we're wrapped you know I think we've done all our stuff can we leave and I think that happens quite a lot that that they you know just in case something else goes wrong with the other child you might have to stay here tell your whilst whilst your legal time is set.

37:27Susannah Boughtflower: And I think a lot of parents don't get that sometimes. So that's quite a nice thing to explain to them. Are there changes you'd still like to see across the industry when it comes to how children are treated on set? Absolutely. I do think, obviously I'd love every set to have a child wrangler when they've got kids or babies. I do think, I think more consistency in standards, wider recognition that specialist child support isn't a luxury, like I said earlier. And I think, And people filming with kids, just remembering that they are not a commodity, that they really need to be looked after. And like I said earlier, I'm not sure if it's right, but I feel there's a Me Too movement for kids.

38:09Susannah Boughtflower: I do think people have now gone, OK, we're filming with kids. Let's make sure they have a really great day. Let's make sure they're absolutely looked after. They're never on their own with a certain person. They're always looked after by their chaperone. we're getting in a really highly skilled chaperone not any old chaperone has just got a license we've always got someone doing monitoring we've always got you know if if you can have it a child or a baby wrangler because then they're completely covered and i do think like i said about the animal wrangler you're not going to shoot animals without an animal wrangler you know it is the same with babies they do need a specialist there to make sure they have the best day and to get the best out of them and really just for compliance as well yeah absolutely and and I mean hearing hearing you speak you know if I was producing a shoot it would be a no-brainer now from now on it's going to be a no-brainer you know you know and that's even and a lot I mean I'm doing a lot of reshoots for modeling agencies now um because you know you've got the kids coming in and then they are getting those lovely relaxed shoots and you can just have the photographer shooting away and you've got someone in the background you know telling them a joke or just you know we do a lot of these little things and we'll kind of ask them different questions would you rather and that moment you know be a unicorn or a dinosaur or ride a unicorn to school and they go and that moment when they think it's just priceless and they've just got that lovely look of thought so natural so childlike so calm and and you know and that's the shot and basically it's done and you know you can take hundreds of shots of kids you know just standing there you're not going to get that shot so yeah it's it it definitely works it definitely saves time and um and yeah I think it's I think it's great and I've absolutely love it and I've loved seeing it evolve yeah in the industries and what keeps you passionate about this work after two decades doing it definitely the children and I was thinking on the way up here there's some of the kids that I've known for all that time you know and I still stay in touch with them um that have modeled you know who I first met working and they were kind of four and five and we were doing fun little videos and you know and then you know I work with them all the way through you know sometimes there's not so much work when when they get a little bit older but I still stay in touch with them all so yeah seeing the children seeing how confident they are feeling proud that they are safe um and knowing those early experiences really matter, making sure, you know, that I get so many messages and little, my daughter did this drawing when she got home for you saying, I love you or I miss you or when will you be back or, oh, we're going to be there tomorrow.

40:55Susannah Boughtflower: Are you going to be there? And, you know, so yeah, just making sure they have a really nice day and memories. Has there been a point where a child has just had a tantrum and you just know that you're not going to bring them around and this is just not their day? I think sometimes, I think generally we can always pull them back, but they need to be taken away from the lights and the faces and all the communication on set, you know, because sometimes when a child gets upset, you kind of get this swarm of people obviously going, are you okay? Oh no, what's wrong? Do you need anything? What do you need?

41:38Susannah Boughtflower: And actually, and it's too much they don't need any of you that's what they need they need and I do spend a lot of time if I've got a sensitive child or a baby I'll ask them to clear the set I'll be like we're coming through we don't want anybody there we don't want any faces leaning in smiling we don't want any of that babies get overwhelmed by faces so yeah it's just about yeah getting those parents or those um crew or whoever it is just to step back and taking the child out normally it's food or water or just over stimulation calming them down giving them a little bit of time on their own yeah and again you're really the only person that's going to do that a parent's not going to feel like they can do that yeah i don't know the crew you know a producer possibly but only if they really understand children and and i've met them from the minute they've walked in the door I've been their person I've got down on their level I've told them we're going to have a good day I've played with them up until that point and yeah if they've got overwhelmed there's you know there's just been a little bit too much for them so I'll just bring them out have a little bit of time with them and bring them back on um you know there is sometimes if someone's a little bit under the weather that they may have a tantrum and not want to go back on but I've rarely had that Have you had any photographers have a tantrum?

42:58Susannah Boughtflower: No, but I have had models have tantrums. And what about when you have children and animals on set? Yeah, do you know what? That is one of my favourite times. If there's something else for the child to look at, like a really glorious set, you know, like beautiful, you know, like the one I was saying in the Barbican with the beautiful, you know, beautiful exotic plants. just anything like that the kids tend to really nature tends to really keep the kids calm and whenever there's a dog or a cat or any animal the kids just have the best day and that again you've got the professional person with and they are amazing aren't they and the kids yeah they just love working with animals generally and hopefully they have asked the kids beforehand if they like animals before they've cast them so that's the other thing you've got to do something get hay fever that they didn't know they had or something please make sure you know you have done all those checks before yeah and uh finally what which brands would you really love to work with well the white company got in touch this week so i'd quite like to work with them if you if you hear this um i'd love to work with next marks and spencers i mean i think they are quite quite a lot of people sometimes have a stylist who is very good with kids and I get that if you've got it all covered yeah I get that you know you don't think there's a need for it and you know and they may have them bringing in the toys as well and all the things for them to do so I think that can sometimes happen but those yeah I'd love to work for Marks and Spencer's next white company be nice a few more brands that do do some regular and you know and at the moment I'm branching out a bit more into tv and film um to get back into that and commercials because I I think that would be quite, I haven't done much in TV and I think that would be fun.

44:49Bowdoin, do you work with Bowdoin? I don't. I think their shots are like that. And I kind of think they were one of the first brands to bring that kind of style in, weren't they?

44:59Susannah Boughtflower: Yeah, my good friend is the hair and makeup artist. And yeah, she's always saying this. I really love, especially with the circus ones they've done recently. and obviously my circus background. Whenever I'm like, I wish I was there. So yeah, Bowdoin, please. But I know they have a very good stylist who again does a lot of the job of the wrangler. So I do know that can happen and they don't think it's necessary.

45:33Susanna Bortflower from Kids On Set. Thank you so much. Thanks so much for having me. As always, thank you for listening. If you enjoyed the episode, don't forget to subscribe, leave a review and share it with someone who might find it inspiring. See you next time.