Zoe Proctor & Laura Winson, Co-Founders of ZBD Talent

0:01Welcome to the Business of Modeling, the podcast that pulls back the curtain on one of the most visible yet misunderstood industries in the world. I'm in Sheffield today at the head offices of Zebedee Talent with co-founders Zoe and Laura. Zebedee are an agency that is truly built on diversity, representing models and creatives with disabilities, visible differences and non-normative identities. We're going to find out today how and why Zebedee was started and the challenges and successes of educating clients on authentic inclusion. So Laura and Zoe, welcome to the Business of Modelling. Thank you so much for having us.

0:49So could I ask you both first of all just to briefly introduce yourselves and tell us where you grew up and what you guys did before Zebedee. I'm Zoe Proctor, I grew up in Lincolnshire so I had quite a rural upbringing brought up in the middle of nowhere really in country village schools and then I went off to uni in Leicester and then I moved down to London and so whilst I was at uni I started modelling myself yeah and then I went into teaching after that. Okay and so when you were modelling what kind kind of jobs were you doing? So I started modelling when I, as a curve model back in the day, one of the first curve models and it was a very new kind of, that was diversity then, so slightly bigger sizes.

1:42Size 12. Yes, from a size 12 plus, you know, it's, yeah, that's how I started. So I just sort of got into the industry that way really. And what did you do in London? Is that when you were modelling? Yeah, I was modelling and I had a great agency and I did some fantastic jobs. And at the time, it was really new and exciting. I did a lot of travelling, worked a lot in Germany and America. What was your calling to go into teaching? Well, after my stint in London, I was like, I went travelling. And it was after I finished travelling, I came home and it was one of those, right, what am I going to do?

2:19It was one of those kind of big decision moments, whether I move back to London or kind of stay up north, get a job, settle down a bit. And that's what I did. I stayed up north and settled down a little bit. And it was just through chance, really. I got a job working in a drug rehabilitation centre for young adults and children. So that was before my teaching career started. so I worked that as a drug care worker for getting on for two years and it was that sort of progression working with young people who were had been had a tricky start to their lives and then I got into teaching because I did my degree in performing arts and fine art and it was sort of a natural progression and I so I got a job teaching as a lecturer young people with learning disabilities and that's how I ended up working a special college for young people with learning disabilities teaching performing arts yeah fantastic and what about you Laura I had a similar childhood I guess really because I grew up in the countryside in North Yorkshire so I guess similar rural schools making mud pies all that sort of thing um and then um I came to Sheffield for uni um and did sociology then worked in business for a little while after that management then I went back to uni again and did a social work qualification so then following on from that I was working as a social worker for maybe 10 years um until we accidentally launched yeah 70.

4:09So when you were um tell us a bit about your social work yeah sure so um I uh worked initially I was working with young people who were homeless and then I moved in to working with looked after young people and people leaving care and then following on from that probably most of my career was working with people experiencing first episode psychosis so again mostly young people because that's when people normally will experience psychosis for the first time and psychosis is really really common so the service is to kind of help people get through that recover or learn to to live with their psychosis and then yeah I did that for in Sheffield for quite a I guess four five years maybe five or six years and I loved it I really did love my job and I definitely I think if I wasn't if we hadn't set then I would probably still be doing it was incredibly hard you know it's not an easy job and you're managing a lot of risk and you're worrying about people and um but I did love it

5:20back to you Zoe where did you both meet and how did you meet we met um gosh how many years ago almost 20 no 20 yeah of course yeah before my wedding yeah 20 years ago and laura was dating or was dating my brother and she's now married to him so we're actually she's married um yeah so we're sister-in-laws right i said that's how you met yeah that's amazing yeah yeah and um so what was happening in the industry that made you feel that there was a need for a different kind of agency when we first had the conversations around it my little girl was doing a little bit of i was on maternity leave and my little girl was doing a bit of modeling zoe was still modeling um and we were talking um about the people that we knew so we both were working with vulnerable people or people with disabilities um and i think we like we were trying to find opportunities for those people just through agencies and we just were talking about the lack of opportunity out there specifically for people with disabilities at that time and how I mean back in 2017 you couldn't even see anyone on Coronation Street EastEnders with a disability it was just so so rare I think that's it it's like I was running a performing arts group for young adults at the time and it was one of those things that oh I want to do this I want to do that and we when we were just chatting weren't we we had a quick look there was no no opportunities out there so we've just it was just like a random conversation as we were walking on the beach and um you're like putting the world yeah we were just crap like why is it and it was a sort of one of those strange moments that both of uh we were at both of our times in our lives when we were sort of having a break from our main jobs as it were I'd sort of finished teaching um you and I was on maternity leave and um I was sort of thinking what next and obviously I was running a performing arts class thinking well do I develop that into something bigger um and then we had this conversation it was we just went back it was a light bulb moment yeah it was a light but we sort of went back into like my mum and dad's house and all the family were there and we were just like oh well we've had this idea and this is what we're gonna do and everyone's like oh right are you yeah we're just like that five second rule they talk about you know you've got to act now otherwise your mind's gonna talk you out of it there was no deep research there was no business plan but we just felt like this that it was the right thing to do yes and it was just one yeah it was just a random discussion and neither of you had run independent businesses before so that was something completely new to you so who thought of the name how did well that came from because zoe was already running the performing arts class that was called zebedee okay yeah that the name actually came from the students that attended so um it there's no there's no deeper meaning of fall behind that i'm afraid but it's um yeah i'm obviously zoe my um assistant at the time was zoe so they were so the students were like let's got to be something with a z and my assistant at the time she was very bouncy and they were just yeah let's call it zebedee and it sort of just stuck and it was felt fun it's a great name yeah um and i've actually found out afterwards it means god given so that's nice oh yeah but also i do like the zebedee as well because when you talk especially british clients everyone knows the magic roundabout and zebedee and it's zebedee's like a cool bouncy fun character and it kind of fit what we were doing at the time energy creativity exactly definitely um and what did those first few months feel like did you have an office where did you start oh gosh we didn't have an office for years ages yeah we were literally we both had a laptop on our sofa yeah and this was 2017 2017 2018 yeah yeah um we didn't have an office no there was just us two um we were working so i had a baby you had you were running your performing arts class so we were just trying to work around that and then i went back to work and we just things just started picking up and I was like trying to manage a baby work and the other day in the business and I was like oh god something's got to give so gave up the baby

9:48so that's when I left social work and we really could like really commit yeah to it um I mean it's been a matter from the from the beginning it was a really big learning curve for us we didn't know this side of the industry because i guess you knew modeling yeah which is completely different rather than exactly you don't know how anything runs or we didn't have a black book of contacts we didn't have that many contacts we didn't have any contacts did we no we didn't we had to i mean i tell this story we were cold calling we'd get the lit like the yellow pages yeah back in the day yeah and like look at ring marks and spencers yeah like customer service and go well can i get put free to your model booking team yeah we had we had no way yeah and we weren't really that savvy on social media at the time so i think it was we just learned but you had the passion and the knowledge actually of that side to kind of make it happen and i think you your job at that point what i'm sure it still is is that was actually educating the clients absolutely we knew we had the talent yeah I think we put a little advert in um a disability-led magazine didn't we and we did a one casting in Sheffield one casting in London and from those we were just blown away and that those articles in those magazines had more hits more inquiries than any other article like that they've done so we knew that we there was people out there that were desperate to do it so we would that was not the we had the talent that was not an issue yeah and it still is that's the same isn't it we've always had the talent the issue still is long-standing discrimination really in the industry and in society at large I guess

11:44Zebedee has definitely helped to reshape really what beauty looks like in fashion and the media um and you have recently been spotlighted by Elle magazine as beauty game changers which is incredible oh thank you and really really well deserved thank you yeah we were really proud of it how do you define beauty today I think it's about individuality it is about diversity because we are no we there's no reason to be restricted by these long-term beauty standards that we've all had to try and adhere to for such a long time so well we've just been fed that haven't we constantly um and so you grow up just believing that's in your mind that that's yeah that's what's that's what you're meant to be that's what's meant to be so i think it's about confidence um being confident in your own skin but i do think we're at a tricky point as well at the moment there's lots of things going on where then maybe things are kind of going back to a bit of a back bit of a back step like yeah um like the like ai just finding just generating typical images of of long-standing typical i've got these little what are these called these

13:03yeah um yeah that you know the historical images that we've seen so i think that's a bit of a concern seeing where that leads us I think like I just saw a piece this morning um just Holly like Hollywood the so many people are looking so similar in Hollywood now and I think that's a bit of a concern as well like where is the individuality in that the surgeons are all getting people to look very very similar yeah why do you think inclusion took so long to reach the mainstream I think people's just genuinely scared and if it ain't broken why fix it um and I think if brands are doing well I mean big big brands have said to me said to us haven't they when we've been in meetings well if if we'll be the last to follow because until everybody else is doing it we're too scared to make that jump um in case we get it wrong and I think that's just that's just been the worry for for bigger brands hasn't it yeah just doing the wrong thing saying the wrong thing i think there's loads of reasons really there's like one people are scared two people are worried that it's not going to make money people think like oh this typical beauty sold for such a long time um we don't like you said we're scared we don't want to change it and if we do what if we don't make the profits that we've made in such a long time which has been proven time and time I mean, again, to be the wrong way to look at things, inclusion is great for business.

14:32I think probably there's just, especially when it comes to disability, we always called it the last taboo. Like, even before we launched, diversity was on the tip of everybody's tongue. You know, like this sort of started happening probably in the 2000s. We need to think about size inclusivity. We need to think about ethnicity, even a little bit of age inclusion. But disability was never included in that conversation. and I think that probably if you look at it really is just to um looks at like the views of society really disability was hidden for such a long time never seen as aspirational you know a healthy kind of um model to put out there really yeah or just yeah just like this this places aren't accessible education isn't accessible workplaces aren't accessible so it's disability is seen as like this otherness i mean how do you help clients who want to be inclusive so when you're having a meeting with you know with with somebody about this how do you sort of help them if they are nervous and you know worried about getting it wrong we do loads and loads of work absolutely tons i mean we've always had a no silly questions policy you know if if we don't know we'll ask um yeah from from the very first stages of their kind of working out their briefs we can be on hand to talk about language access we have creatives access coordinators so many people who can work behind the scenes to make sure it's a really successful shoot just for the client and the talent as well so we can also do education as well so we do offer like webinars or in-person sessions where we can talk about the ethical case for inclusion the business case and then top tips in terms of like what can you do in a casting to make it more inclusive then what can you do on set to make it more inclusive and you do production as well so you could be what you can do that process for them if we were just shooting yesterday actually we've done a really cool uh shoot yesterday so we can support with the process as well in terms of production we've got um people who've lived experience of disability who are makeup artists photographers we've got a bit another big shoot coming up with one of our photographers and and a few of our makeup artists so i think like including people with lived experience of disability on set whilst you're shooting people with disabilities is always going to be beneficial all of our models complete something called an access rider so this basically kind of delves into like what their access needs would be and how people can meet those needs and those access riders are shared with clients um to ensure that needs are met as i have all the information before they start I mean it's yeah it's very personalized so it's so we don't have to keep asking them it could be the smallest thing it's like is there room for a wheelchair to turn around can that person in the wheelchair change or is there a disabled toilet you know do they need support you know it's it could be anything really any allergies any triggers somebody who has who is neurodiverse might be afraid of loud noise something a balloon or it could be anything or different colors or a smell or anything like that so so those are those it's a really important document for us that we kind of make sure that everything that is personalized that that talent gets seen by the the team yeah yeah and ultimately that's what's going to make for a successful shoot is all the prep and everyone understanding everyone else that's that's on set and i think i think the thing is it's like often there's very little on the access rider there doesn't have to i think people this is you're talking about being afraid like afraid of getting it people assume there's going to be a massive cost and things they have to put in that they wouldn't cost or disruption yeah and it really is very very rare like we have models doing e-com who have disability and they have they have no adaptations they just do that they just work crack on through yeah like the same as any other talent would but people make presumptions about what people's needs will be or if it's going to be too tricky or we're not going to be able to meet those needs and then they then they don't book them because they're worried about that yeah um yeah and we do yeah we so a lot of the work we do is around educating people about how you can meet and it can be quite easily really small changes if any do you think brands are becoming committed now um or are you still seeing tokenistic casting a bit of both i mean there are some brands that are doing it well and it feels very genuine and it you know we know from regular of bookings if they're booking the talent again if these campaigns have been successful but yeah there's so many there's so much tokenistic kind of like we're going out there isn't there but yeah i think it's hard it is hard and i think with tokenism it's always a really tricky thing for me because i think this is another reason why people don't book because they are worried about being called out as tokenistic so in so they won't book disabled people at all and then then you're just excluding a huge proportion of society so for me where we stand at the moment where inclusion is i am happy to have some people being the first people who might be seen as being tokenistic being booked because unless we start booking disabled talent when are we ever going to see that and i think the only reason you're going to get called out as being tokenistic is if the person if it's not authentic so the person advertising the product doesn't use the product or the scenario that they're in isn't real to what they would be experiencing but it only takes a little bit of work to get that right you only need to do a little bit of consultation with the community to ensure that your stories are authentic and that your productions and your campaigns are authentic so i'm kind of happy for the you know it's got to start somewhere i mean we always follow up after we always talk with the client after see what we can do better the next time and how the campaign's gone down and that's it and we do want to see longer term collaborations with clients and it not to be one-off like special so often we do have like we think right this is it this brand has got it now they're gonna seem to go back again yeah i think we're at a tricky point in politics at the moment like both in the states and here like things are not you know we've come so far in inclusion and trying to make society a kinder a nicer place and then we've got political things going on that mean mean that unfortunately i mean we've seen it definitely like in terms of inclusive casting it's not where it was even last year yeah so that's is a yeah they're being because i was quite naive people said to me last year do you know like with with trump and his attack on dei do you think it's going to impact your business and I thought well why would it why because you know the evidence is out there that inclusion is good for business so I was thinking why business people why would brands not continue with this but um unfortunately it does look like some brands like we know target they've rolled back all their DEI policies and there's many brands out there that with really big brands brands that are following uh Trump's lead and I don't know what you just can't understand that can you I yeah we're living in quite scary times I think yeah I've never known anything like it you know I think fashion weeks as well we've seen it haven't we where they kind of we we did see models with disabilities and a lot more curved models on the catwalk and that seems to have gone again I don't know what you guys think about that it's really dipped this well the past few seasons yeah and and to be honest we don't we've really tried to get our talent involved in fashion weeks over the years it's been you know that some of the team have really spent extra time getting their talent ready for fashion week and putting them out there and promoting them to the absolute max for for a little and no return really and so it's really tricky it is sad it's so sad to see and like say there's a huge dip in diverse bookings for across the world yeah yeah the fashion weeks are terrible they really are they're just not they it really upsets me how they like um the brands will champion themselves saying look how inclusive we've been look how great we are we've had some curve um we've had a bit of diversity in terms of ethnicity and i'm looking at their runways i'm like your runways are not inclusive at all but they think they are i find it they're banners up and wave their flag look how inclusive we are you're not they all know who we are we've emailed every single brand contacted every single brand at fashion week we work with the bfc the bfc have a policy on inclusion that they put to brands that they say you need to be inclusive we need to think about ethnicity size and they don't and they know we're here we've got some wonderful amazing runway models and you have just been accepted by the bfma the british fashion model agents association now that that's amazing because they have historically been dominated by only high fashion agencies what does that recognition mean to you i think like it's really really great for us to have that recognition and i think like for brands to see oh actually zbd are like at that table you know they are recognized by the bfma they're respected they have the right talent they're running their agency as they should be running it so i think that's really really great i hope that it does have the impact on brands that they it may be a little bit of a push for them to think actually we need to crack on with this um but time will tell but other than that we're just delighted to be working with them anyway because i think the support in terms of general issues facing agents at the moment is just going to be really great for us to have

24:34how do you work with clients to ensure accessibility on set you've obviously talked about the forms that your models fill in how do you then how far sort of do you go will you you'll actually produce the whole shoot if they want you to we can do yeah we can produce shoots but we it's about having a really thorough conversation beforehand um we have access coordinators and people that can go in to discuss logistics and and how things will work generally we work the same as any other talent agency so we're not producing our shoots as the norm we can do it if somebody wants that support but what we do is offer support to ensure that they can um run their shoots in an inclusive and accessible way so it's sharing the access riders having the conversations training with teams offering them like disability um training and knowledge so they feel more confident and comfortable having conversations around access if somebody needs to take somebody on set like an assistant then we'll always ensure that that happens and what has been the hardest parts of running a business like financially emotionally or personally i think it's like for me anyway it changes i mean i love it this is like this is my absolute obsession so like I don't think like I wouldn't do any other job I love it so much and I'm so happy and proud that we are where we are I think the pressures are the same as anybody any other agent um or anybody else running a business ensuring that you've got like the books are marrying up to you you know that you're keeping it that your team are feeling valued and happy um that the talent are feeling valued and happy the hardest thing is managing people and we manage a lot of people we've got an amazing amazing staff that work with us but also managing like thousands of people worldwide and keeping everybody happy all of the time is really the hardest thing um the global time zones yeah that's tricky yeah that's hard work isn't it to get your head around yeah and having you guys um actually as partners must be lovely actually and I've sort of done it the other way so I've I've kind of been on my own but recently my head booker Jess who I've worked with for 15 years um is now with my stepson and they've just had a baby so I've kind of got her as my sort of daughter-in-law who and because she's obviously worked with me for a long long time and I think that's so important isn't it that you have someone that really understands hands and kind of is involved in everything i think it's funny because like you see different advice on this it's like never work with your family yeah but then we wouldn't have it any other way because so he's got really great skills in areas that i don't and yeah what are you yeah what are your sort of skill sets that work so well together you love presenting and talking and don't you and kind of working with brands and clients and things and i like i love being in the office working with talent scouting working on portfolios kind of um so i like driving the business i guess the client side and you're driving the talent side working in the business yeah so it's and yeah i mean we've never really had a crossword have we over the years i was gonna say what happens if you disagree honestly i mean we just to be honest we don't disagree like we can see each other within a corner of an eye and we know we're thinking exactly the same thing or we'll say what do you think about this Zoe and Zoe will say I've already been thinking about that do you know like it's a bit psychic so many times like oh yeah well funnily you should say that but yeah we are genuinely on the same page and we are really good and good friends we like a gin and tonic together you know like going away together we're having Christmas together we're family you know yeah it's lovely I mean it couldn't be better really could it how it's all sort of worked out and yeah we're a very close family

28:44what have been the moments or campaigns that felt like genuine turning points or that you're proudest of I think some of the biggest successes for me have not been the biggest kind of jobs or the showiest of jobs sometimes it's those smaller bookings that the client have hasn't thought about uh hiring somebody who had a disability where we've gone that person can do that job and they would be brilliant at it and then the client has kind of twigged onto that and seen that potential in that person and i think they're the it could be the little incidental role yeah incidental casting and they're the they're the sweet spots for for me anyway and i think that they're the really beautiful things that we've kind of like yeah we've made that person think differently about that role or I love I love like if we get some decent tv or film work in like I love seeing that like we had somebody on I love Atlanta and we had somebody on Atlanta so I really enjoyed that we had somebody on Peter Pan yeah I love love that as well yeah one of our boys who has Down syndrome he was cast as one of the lost boys in the recent Peter Pan and Wendy film and that originally wasn't look they weren't looking for somebody who had a disability for that role and but we just knew he was a brilliant young actor and we would just think just look at this guy he's he's excellent yeah so he filmed in Canada with Jude Law for for that film he was yeah it was amazing I love covers as well we had the stylist cover we had loads of girls on the stylist cover a few well probably six months ago now and that was I loved that cover um obviously Ellie is a big success ellie goldstein she's on strictly and we really really love that um she's just done so many great things we've had some great primark campaigns we've got europe is going really well we've like working did some great stuff with zolando and adidas more and more uh there's more incredible adaptive ranges coming out so we're kind of we've been across so many of those like there's um zolando doing an adaptive range and every single one of the models is as everybody model um you know primark adaptive we've worked with them a lot on that never fully dressed of bringing out an adaptive range um so it's there's so many brands doing really incredible things that we've been fully involved yeah from from the start of those exactly which is lovely yeah and i don't watch tv very much but when i do i love it when the adverts come on and i and i recognize people in the ad because often more often than not i won't have seen them until i'm watching yeah you now have divisions in the US in Australia and in Europe um was this a reaction to demand and which ones came first like how did that come about expanding and why why did you decide to keep your branding and go there yourselves rather than work with agencies that were already there the first place internationally that we launched was in america and that was because of demand because i think back then 2018 ish they we were getting inquiries you know people it was a tap from talent really it was one of those kind of why aren't you coming you need to come here you've got to do that there's nobody coming here and we were like well we just sort of went on a fact-finding mission didn't we we didn't there was no jeopardy to it we just sort of went for a trip we met as many people as we could on that first kind of trip to New York yeah um met so many casting directors and we just thought let's give it a shot even if it pays for this trip but you know yeah at least we've got to go to New York together with your bestie yeah we've had a lovely time in New York and and we've met some amazing people yeah and and that that was it really but we did come back and we we just gave it a bit of thought didn't we yeah yeah we got some again started with the talent and then we reached out to all the brands and yeah from there we it is tricky to manage timescales but yeah but but you know with the world the good thing about the world there's good and bad isn't there about technology now but the good thing is we can be in an office anywhere and work all over the world absolutely you know which is great and i think that's a brilliant business decision actually you're keeping your own name going there yourself health rather than well I think with us being so unique as well and us having the knowledge around disability I think we wouldn't we couldn't really have felt comfortable passing that to somebody else um and we tend to be honest we didn't even think of doing that it wasn't even didn't even cross our mind um yes and and then like following on from America so with it being we also have other family members who have worked here along the way so my sister Vic lives in Australia and because of the time zone we Vic started to do some work for us on the American division because in Australia they're essentially like one whole day yeah so and then and then she said to us well we might as well just see if we can work in Australia as soon as though I'm here like so then she started the Australian doing it in Australia well she's fit she's her own business now yeah but she so she's not doing it but we have a different girl in Australia doing Australian business.

34:03We've got a girl here doing America. So we do have a 24-hour clock working. Wow.

34:13You've just rebranded. What was the story behind that? And what does this new identity sort of represent? This is another funny one as well, because I think either you said to me or I said to you, what do you think about if we rebranded as ZBD? And I was like, well, I can't remember which way that. That's what I was thinking. Who came up with that idea? at the same time just trying we talk a lot when we're driving don't we like yeah friendly enough yeah so we've both been thinking we did some work um with a marketing expert and it's something that we've both been thinking of just to make it seem a little bit more high-end a little bit more luxury and we found a lot of people in the states struggled zbd yeah it's like oh no is it zbdbd and obviously some people struggled spelling it and it's quite it it didn't sort of roll off the tongue so easily when you're spelling it and it's so yeah we've gone down to zbd and yeah it makes emails easier i mean it's the same sound so it's easier but it just uh yeah and i can't stop seeing it is like zbd it's the same but it's just the the three letters and it just looks more slick yeah we are part of the bfm bfma now we're playing with the the big dogs or whatever it you know so we need to be like you know our branding needs to run alongside yeah theirs and we think our models like they are high end yeah models they are like amazing they can be working for luxury brands and that's what we wanted can you tell us about your channel 4 series new model agency i think we all love watching that oh how did that come about and what was it like to film?

35:59I think from actually very very early on when we first started we had um production companies messaging us going what you're doing is fantastic we'd love to and we we did a few sort of taster tapes with a few different production companies but it never kind of felt quite right or got picked up in the right way and actually the lady that did the new model agency um documentary with us she worked at the bbc and we we've known her for a long time and um it just felt like a a nice thing to do everything was going really well at the time in the business so yeah we just thought we'd do some it would be fun it's something fresh and new to get involved in and it was it was it was it was a really fun thing to be involved in and how long was filming for that it's about four months i can't even remember it started in the summer and ended just before christmas yeah yeah yeah four or five months and was everyone in the office on board were they all excited or did you have people going no i'm not being on camera everybody was excited but honestly by the time it had finished most of us were ready ready for it yes exactly yeah it was a massive commitment it was obviously we were it was we were really really busy at that that sort of when they were filming it's our busiest period yeah and when they're sort of asking everyone to redo this bit redo that bit and it it would have been easier if it was just like big brother style to know if we just could continue with all the work we were doing but it wasn't really like that it was like right we need to do this now we need to do this now can we set up a call with this person now can that was a tricky thing actually because like the tv world doesn't work the same as modeling world so they're like can you make sure that ellie is booked for a job on tuesday next week yeah we cannot make sure that and then and can you make sure we can bring 10 film crew to that set no we cannot make sure that they were like you know like so it was it was just really fun to do something completely different and it mixed things up a bit and it was it was just funny to get involved you know it was the whole thing was quite funny like just to be involved in and i thought it was lovely i thought they represented you really well i thought the models all look fantastic you know I think you chose a good producer and a good yeah obviously in hindsight we thought maybe they could have delved a bit deeper about why we started why what we did was so important and I think there was something missed a little bit like there and it was quite talent like what it means to them like in terms of representation and like not not the glitz of it but the meaning behind it you know what I mean and I think it was more entertainment rather than this is why it's an important thing and to their communities to society in general why it's you know why we are so different and why we do yeah it's so important and personally it was light touch entertainment you know and obviously they weren't gonna delve that deep into what we do but um i think if we were to do anything like that again we would have to make sure that it should be like that that's a story that yeah you live and learn don't you?

39:10Yeah, she did. Yeah, of course. Well, we have to talk about, we just touched on her earlier, the incredible Ellie Goldstein, who's just been so brilliant, hasn't she, strictly. Can you tell us her story and how she came to Zebedee? She was one of probably the first talent ever to come to one of those very, very first castings. It was that first London casting that we did, she came. We used to hire this little, the cheapest studio we possibly could find in East London. Nick, Nary Wharf somewhere. And yeah, she came to the casting and she was just amazing. She was only 15, 14, 15. Just as you see her now.

39:51Yeah. Just absolutely full of joy. She's the lights out of the entire room, doesn't she? Yeah. Full of energy. So much energy. And so much, like she wanted to do it. Oh gosh, yeah, she totally did. Yeah, she... Because I think her mum had seen, or somebody, one of her mums, we'd gotten, what's it called, this morning, we'd done like a little segment on this morning and we'd got so many applications following on from that. And then one of Yvonne's, Ellie's mum's friends had told Yvonne about it and then she's like, I need to get in touch with them. Because I think Ellie had been bugging me, like, I want to do this.

40:25I want to be a performer. I want to be, you know, I want to be a model. No opportunity. No opportunity. So, yeah. And then it's just strength to strength. I mean, Gucci was then. we did so with Ellie she she was she basically as soon as she hit uh out of licensing age she she was working quite regularly wasn't she and then we did um we worked on a campaign for world down syndrome day and um she had these images taken and she just stood out and she just It was the front cover of our... I haven't got it here, but... Oh, it's in that box. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, there we go. This is the image that she did, and we're just like, wow, look at her.

41:07I mean, her eyebrows and just a lip shape. Everything. She just looks so beautiful. She's got the most beautiful hair. Yeah. And, yeah, it was really, I think, from that shoot that then she went on and got the beauty Gucci campaign in collaboration with Vogue Italia. but that campaign it was an editorial, we had no idea where it was going to go, it was an editorial you never know do you if they're going to get picked up or what's going to happen the photographer is amazing and he selected Ellie and then he was like I'm going to then he managed to get it in Vogue Italia and then Gucci Beauty picked it up and then they put it on their socials and then Gucci picked it up and put it on their socials and then from that it just absolutely blew up and that one image of ellie just kind of went viral globally but you you don't know what those images are you never know like i mean it's an amazing image and yeah but um and she absolutely deserved it but we we hadn't you'll do big campaigns and they won't go anywhere near like what that what that one did um and then that was it i guess for her wasn't it like just jobs she's just been busy and how did Strictly come about?

42:25well I think they contacted us a while ago didn't they maybe a couple of years ago so we've just been in talks with them a little bit about some of our talent I think they were just wanting to see if she could they were researching basically about how she could do it how they could manage things how could they meet her needs and make it really successful I think it it took them a little while obviously um one of one boy who has Down syndrome did the Christmas show and so they think they learned quite a lot from working with George Webster who did that um and then yeah so in the sum this summer um they were back in touch with us and um Ellie went for a trial with um Nikita that's why she instantly fell in love with Nikita yeah and so we were just waiting and we you know obviously it was a huge undertaking a huge commitment from her um obviously she's majorly in the limelight and i think that we knew like a hundred percent she could do the dancing she could do the performing in front of an audience that was not going to be the problem and it was just all the other stuff that comes along with doing such a huge incredible with her you can just see amazing and i love you can see his vulnerability come through yeah which is just he is a really lovely man they knew what they were doing when they paired them yeah yeah it's really beautiful how do you find and develop new talent well it's a bit of a mixture really because like we said in the early days most people found us because they were absolutely just ready and waiting for an agency that would that would represent them um so people generally find us um most of the time we do do a little bit of scat like we do all of us if we're out and about and we see somebody who's um looks great um we will approach people we'll scout on socials as well um in terms of development we do um we have lots and lots of information when people first sign about just to really understand how the industry works what to expect um just make it brutally honest you know um it's what it's going to be like and then following on from that developing people we run our own shoot we've got the studio we've got the studio downstairs so we run our own shoots we get people doing their portfolios developing their confidence we've run training sessions like for our um developing people's presenter skills showreel workshops i mean we can have them with self-tapes that's such a big thing yeah i mean we have the most incredible team of bookers that kind of are so passionate about working with their talent and they have such a brilliant relationship with them so it's we a lot of hand-holding in the early days and you know and except for the time they go out on their first job they're not comfortable about what to expect and what industry standards or codes of practice would you like to see adopted i always say i say 20 of the population has a disability i would love it if we saw 20 % of advertising, TV, film, being representative of what the reality is of our society.

45:42So like, that's what I would like to see. That would be an industry standard. I think it's going to take a long time for us to get there. And it's always hard to think about regulation because I don't want to force, you know, it's hard to say like, you must be inclusive. I want people to want to do this because it's the right thing to do and it's the right business thing to do. But there are some things like with London Fashion Week, knowing that there are guidelines saying you need to be these are our policies you need to think about inclusion on your own way well I think they kind of need to hold people to account if they're not doing it so there needs to be some sort of accountability and like I don't know exactly what that looks like yeah don't say it yeah yeah absolutely and what advice would you give someone um with a disability or a visible difference um who wants to model but maybe feels unsure where to begin well i would say first of all be confident to think that you can achieve this because like you don't get anywhere unless you don't regret thing what's the phrase you don't regret things that you've not no you do you won't regret giving it a go yeah yeah you can't regret something if you haven't done it yeah don't ever give me any catchphrases yeah yeah you still try and use catchphrases but you're terrible it's like every time every time you get it wrong yeah i think that's it isn't it it's just just there there are opportunities out there if you if you look for them and you really want to do it um yeah you know just just go for it you know you have to go for it do your research do your research apply to us at 7d um and see where that takes you i mean it's a hard and it's a hard industry for any model isn't it like regardless of whether you have that added discrimination of having a disability yeah yeah i think so because i think you know it's hard as an agency it's horrible turning anyone down and try to do it as nicely as possible and explain that it yes it's not sort of personal and but that must be make it harder when you're dealing with more vulnerable people it is it is really hard but then at the same time we don't want to set people up to fake no yeah so i think that's one of the things that we've learned over the years it's it's kinder to say no to people then have them sitting there and they don't get work and then yeah exactly yeah it's awful at the time but actually long term it's it's it's much kinder to to do that and just to kind of keep things real you know um and do you ever get briefs that you turn down because you feel like the talent are being tokenized or misused we haven't really necessarily got them that we've briefed that we would turn down but we would definitely speak to that client about like whether it's their language whether it's the presentation like whatever it is that we're uncomfortable with that brief we will speak to the client about that and more often not they'll be like oh shit yeah most people who come to us they've already took that step like actually we want to be you know like to come to us they've already thought right we need to think about inclusion and we want to be inclusive so they usually come with open ears you know to like learn and make sure they get it right so that's your message really isn't it if there's any clients listening that are a bit unsure pick up the phone these guys are here to help you we would never call people out and we've never ever done that we've never named or shamed brands and we just want people to get it right for everyone's sake so we just well yeah like I say a lot of hand-holding we're kind of happy to guide yeah we're activists we're not here to like tell people off we're here to like help move things forward in a positive way

49:30what's been your proudest moment to date people used to ask us this what would be the dream didn't they and that you always said to see a baby who had a disability on a nappy package yeah and because you had your baby yeah back then it was like you you know you wouldn't see any disability diversity or nappy packaging or baby wipes weren't yeah and mine was to see somebody on the front cover of vogue and so you know yeah I mean so we both yeah both achieved those goals didn't we? Yeah, polar opposites but like both meet a lot to different communities and that's important yeah. And what's been your hardest lesson as business owners?

50:13I guess like it comes it's like I think we feel like vulnerable sometimes it's like just learning to manage your own wellness because there's a lot of pressure especially if you're working around the clock with different time zones as well you're never getting down time are you? I think that's the thing you we can't do everything on our own just you know and knowing our own personal limits and looking after our own mental health and well-being and looking after our own families as well when you know when you anyone knows when you start a business up it's like we have put everything into this we have worked around the clock every single day we've been obsessed both of us it's from the moment i wake up in the morning to last thing i go at night yeah you know and i don't the night when you wear stuff going around exactly and I think it's it's giving ourselves space to be be okay with that for one reason I think that's not going to change actually that is part of that yeah and it's okay to feel driven and proud and kind of work hard and want more and be better yeah you know but it's also okay to have a little mini breakdown yeah

51:30yeah so I guess I don't really know if that's an answer but like yeah just trying to manage I just think you know your team are the most lovely but also the hardest thing you know they're really your biggest asset aren't they yeah you've got to get that right and you've got to make sure that you know you do put them first yeah you do and that's great the book always lands with yeah doesn't you know like we'll take their responsibility for the if anything tricky yeah you know just come up but then with that obviously comes a lot of pressure but like and I think that's it like managing it with family as well I like I do think my family they have been impacted by the amount I've got to work but then at the same time I think well I'm bringing my kids up to know to have a great work yeah and drive and passion for something Do you think any of your kids will come into the business?

52:23God, no. I don't know. I think my boy wouldn't. I don't know. It's hard to say. My daughter is at London College of Fashion. Oh, lovely. But she's not really made any noises to... No. I think she wants to... I think it's really important that they all go off and do their own thing first. Absolutely. Well, my daughter actually came in. She applied when they were looking for an apprentice booker. She said, well, can I apply? And I'd never encourage that or anything. and I sort of said, if you want to, and I said to my girls, my senior bookers, I said, look, if she gets it, she gets it because she is right, not because anything to do with me, I'm out of it.

52:59So actually she did her apprenticeship with us and she's been working with us now three years, but she's leaving in January and then do her own thing, which is great, so yeah. And I don't worry, I'm two floors up. She's on the booking desk.

53:21what's next for zedbidi i don't know i'll have to have a look no get out of the room see what bookings have come in do you know what it's really funny because we keep saying we need to go and have a night away just the two of us to kind of like just have a reflect on what what has been and and kind of think about what's next yeah because you're always just so super busy it's been really hard so maybe over christmas we will sit down and they do say don't they you need to work on your business not in your business yeah so you need to be able to take yourself away yeah yeah yeah it's just hard to find the time do you know i think just steady growth would be nice just again it's like i just want everyone to be happy everyone to be working and and just for the industry to steadily be growing and being more inclusive being more inclusive yeah a new like new brands new agencies to work with you know every week every month i'm going to australia at the end of this month so we've got quite a few of um things booked in there to try and grow that business um and who knows maybe someone in strictly next year as well yeah i've been living vicariously through and it's been i know it's incredible i just you know i so magical absolutely yeah it really is i think that is actually i think like a few of our talent really deserve to be personalities to be like actually household names so that's what i would love to see in the future just a few more talent being these household names and be recognized and have just disability you know really discussed and visible in society so pick a talent each not ellie because we've talked about ellie pick a talent each and give me a pitch on them about why they're so brilliant and where they've come from what you know why they should be a superstar i'm gonna go with um a young lady called annabelle kiki um she is she is a leg amputee and she is i think she's just 16 and she's just she's come from our children's division where it's notoriously tricky for teenagers to get work but we were like please just hold on you'll be fine as soon as you get out of licensing and age and she has hit the ground running she is so driven so passionate about everything she does she she is the leader and captain of an amputee a football team for team gb she's snowboarder she's and skier she's just so driven to do well in the industry she walked london fashion week and loved it it was chaos but she just loved it she really is one to watch i think um and i think she's gonna be a superstar yeah what about you laura i we've got um amy conroy i think she's gonna be absolutely amazing another sports person and wheelchair basketball a paralympic um superstar um the nicest person in the world just absolutely wonderful character great to speak to i think she's one of those people that i can see being a personality yeah she's amazing

56:57what you guys are doing is really incredible i think you know we all need to learn from it and i think to to have the vision that you had and just to act on that and just to be where you are today you need to be really proud yeah thank you yeah Zoe Proctor and Laura Winson of Zebedee Talent thank you thank you this has been the business of modeling I'm Tessa Dewing and I'll see you next time