The Secret to Brand Loyalty - Warren Kornblum

0:00Warren Kornblum:Hey, welcome to the CMO Whisper Show. I'm your host, Steve Olenski. Part marketing practitioner, part ad agency veteran, part journalist, I was a writer for Forbes for 10 years. I've had so many insightful conversations over the years with business leaders, to athletes, to celebrities, to of course, CMOs. The only difference now is instead of sharing those insights through written form, I'm doing it this way. My guest today is Warren Kornblow. Warren works with brands that want more than attention. They want to matter. From founding one of Canada's fastest growing agencies to serving as global CMO of Toys R Us, he's been in the rooms where growth, reinvention, and tough decisions actually happen.

0:44Warren Kornblum:And what he's seen is simple. Brands don't fall apart because of strategy. They fall apart when they stop mattering to their people and to their customers. He's also the author of Notes from the Brand Stand, where he introduces Share of Heart, the emotional connection that drives real loyalty. Warren Kornblum, welcome to the show. It's great to be here. Thank you. And thanks for that lovely introduction. I couldn't have said it better myself. So I see we are both adorning hats of our respective brands, but tell folks before we go into all the nitty gritty of what we're going to talk about, tell folks about Share of Heart.

1:21Well, you know, Sheriff Hart is something that I thought of many, many, many years ago. I think being an old advertising guy, it probably goes back to when I was a rookie in the copy department. And my favorite commercial in those days, Steve, was, I'm sure you'll remember it because some of the younger people in the audience won't, but Coca-Cola used to do some amazing heartfelt advertising. And they had probably my favorite commercial of all time, which was called Mean Joe Green and the Kid. And it basically showed this hulk of a linebacker Hall of Famer today who everybody thought was exactly what his name said, Mean Joe Green.

1:56And he was walking into his dressing room after a game, and this little kid came up to him and said, hi, Mean Joe. And Mean Joe Green went from being this monster to looking at this kid and then holding up a Coke. And I always thought to myself, you know what? It's not talking about fizz or carbonation or anything like that. It's about the relationship between the brand, Coke, in that day, and a young kid who just was looking up at his idol. And I said, you know what, that's in our classic marketing terms. We always learn to talk about share of mind. So I want to be in the consideration set. Top of mind, I want to be at the top of the consideration set.

2:33And then I guess from a business perspective, we always talk about share of wallet. I want to have more share of your dollar, your disposable spending. And I always said to myself, you know what, if we can ever get to a point where I not only have share of mind, top of mind, I'm getting some business from people, but they actually like me as a brand and that there's an emotional connection between the brand and whoever it's consumer, be that business or be it, you know, consumer, consumer. You've got the job one. However, there's also a huge obligation to that, which is once someone gives you their belief and their trust, if you ever lose it, it's really hard to earn back.

3:09So share of heart is emotional connection between a brand and its consumer.

3:14Warren Kornblum:So let's just dig a little deeper now into that. What has to happen really for a customer to feel like they, quote, own a brand? Well, first of all, I think they have to feel that the brand is relevant to them. I think that brands that are trying to achieve or have achieved share of heart really have a customer first and a customer first focus. So it's not just about providing them with something or giving them options or fast delivery or, you know, refund policy. Yeah, it's about all of those things. But more importantly, it's about a sense that people believe in the product offering, the way it's delivered.

3:48And also, frankly, the company itself. Talk a lot about social media, not social media in a traditional sense, but socially conscious companies and giving back. And it's a bit of all of that stuff. It's, you know, I really, Steve, try and take it down. So I understand it because I'm maybe not the smartest person in the room. I always try and take it down to what I call the basic common denominator, which is who's on the receiving end, what are they looking for, what's going to make them feel like they're important to us and sort of do a bottom up, top down and meet in the middle. It's about you.

4:19It's not about me. I mean, if it's only about me, then it's, you know, I always say awareness is easy. Connection is really hard. and that's attention to detail from a brand perspective.

4:30Warren Kornblum:So I'm glad you went there because I was going to ask you about that. I know you've said that before and you said it to me off the air that gaining awareness is easy, right? Well, two part to that question is, has it always been that way? And why is the case like that today? Has it got easier? You know, I think one is if you have to take the dollar signs out of that conversation, right? Because at some point, you know, when I say gaining awareness is easy, you know, you throw money at it as a marketer. And unless you have a really bad media plan and you make really bad choices, your target market should be aware of it because you're spending a lot of money against it.

5:05That's not efficient at all. But so you can, in my mind, be it on social media, be it on paid media, be it on through influencers, you can gain awareness by throwing money at it. Getting just using those three examples, the right influencer. Otherwise, I think people call BS, right? I mean, we have all seen examples of that. So there has to be a reason for the influencer that makes sense to the end user, the consumer. I think from a social perspective, it's not just a matter of throwing messages out there. It's throwing relevant conversations. And relevance is not, again, from me. Relevance is from the people I'm trying to speak with.

5:41And I think right there is a big, you know, something I believe in is speaking with, not at consumers from a brand perspective. And a lot of brands speak at people as opposed to with them. and then i think uh the third one is on even on on paid media it's where are you what's your messaging and is it something that is not just you know come in now because our prices are cheap or come in now because there's free returns or it's it's all of those things but at the end of

6:05Warren Kornblum:the day it's things that matter to your customer yeah and it's like when i when i read off your your intro like it i love the word simple like yeah yeah i mean it's not rocket science i i always believe, you know, the last thing I ever want to say, I say it in the book, the last thing I ever wanted to be in any boardroom, be it when I was in the advertising agency and had business and had my own, or when I went to Bozell or whatever, Toys R Us, I didn't want to be the smartest guy in the room. I wanted to be surrounded by a bunch of really smart people, but most importantly, people who thought like who we were trying to sell, like a customer.

6:43And then I think that the CMO's job and the best of them, and hopefully maybe I'm in that circle, but whatever, the best of them understand it's not necessarily your idea. As a matter of fact, that can be negative if you're trying to always shove your own ideas down. But being in a room with really smart people, be they employees or be they providers or consultants or whatever, advisors, I think our job is to really be the customer in the room, to think about the impact of the messaging and its relevance, but to be able to see and instinctively know that great idea. Then I think from there, once that direction is set or the idea is embraced, then I think the real challenge becomes feeding it through the organization and getting belief and trust.

7:32There's two audiences, I think, that are critical. One is your internal audience, your partners, and the second is the people you're trying to talk, not in ranked order. They're equally important. As an advisor, I know I'm rambling a little, so I apologize, but as an advisor, one of the biggest things I've seen over the years is, and even in my agency, is you're walking and you're waiting in a reception area or even sometimes on a Zoom or something, and there's mission statements there. And my first point of exploratory is not to, well, read the mission statement, obviously, but then talk to 10 or 15 people who aren't looking at it and say, tell me, what's the mission?

8:08There's two, you know, two things. One is, it's amazing how many times you've got a what? And that's, that's a problem, obviously. Or the second one is when they just verbatim repeat it, like they've been, you know, like they've been drilled in their head. What I'm always looking for is understand the mission, but be able to articulate it yourself because you have a role in it as a, you know, a cog in the wheel.

8:32Warren Kornblum:Yeah. And, oh, I've done, I've done a similar exercise at different companies and I've been at big companies like Oracle, where you read something on a wall, and then you ask somebody just around a water core, virtual or not, what's our mission? You get 1000 different answers. Exactly. And, and that's okay, if it all bubbles up to the same mission, but nine times out of 10, they can't even articulate it in their own words. So how are you going to tell your consumer, be that a business in Oracle case, a B2B consumer, some consumer to consumer, but or B2C, But how is the organization going to communicate that if they can't communicate it to themselves?

9:08And I think that's where, you know, your hat, that's where the CMO comes in, right? And the CEO. It's got to be, in my opinion, I want to hear your opinion. I value your opinion. I want people to have productive discussion about it. But once we lock in, we all need to believe. Because if we don't believe, then the people we're talking to aren't going to believe.

9:30Warren Kornblum:Oh, a thousand percent. I mean, people are, I always say brands, B2B, B2C agnostic, they don't give consumers slash buyers enough credit. 1 ,000%. And to your earlier point about using the word simple, at the end of the day, it usually comes down to that. If you're reading something or talking about it, and you and I are going and our eyes are rolling, and we don't get it, then I don't care who's giving the message. It's not going to, it's simple, bite-sized chunks. This is who we are. This is what we're going to do for you. This is how we think about you. We're going to value you. And that's top down, bottom up.

10:05Exactly.

10:06Warren Kornblum:OK, so if awareness is easy, of course, the flip side is then what's hard and what do brands not get right? Well, I think one is, is that they talk, I'm repeating that, but I really believe it. They talk at people rather than to them or with them, actually with them, not to them. I think that sometimes you can easily see that it's more about the brand and they're trying to force the market than it is about we're going to develop things. I think sometimes it's about, you know, look at a company like Patagonia, you know, there's just, there's a soul to the company, Giovanni. I mean, there's just, and I think consumers like that.

10:42I mean, they want, they want to feel a part of a family and they want to be proud of that family. And a brand is, should be a part of a family. That's how I've always looked at it. I mean, it's amazing how when you meet with people and talk about a company or a brand or a product that they like, or they don't like the ones who like it. Like think about the conversation. It's an age old one, but between Apple users and DOS users or non-Apple users. I mean, it's almost like it's not a technological conversation except for the real techies out there. It's people are just have a brand affiliation and it's almost like they're talking about a friend, right?

11:18That's when you achieve share of heart is when you actually have a connection with the people that they're not only transactional and buying something from you, but they're loyal. It's almost like they'll go, um, when you've achieved share of heart, they'll almost only look at you. And the only reason that would look at somebody else online in a store, whatever is if they can't find what they're looking for, which is okay. Cause you shouldn't sell stuff for the sake of it. Um, but you know, first choice, every choice. And when they talk about you, uh, the brand, um, they're all, as I said, they're almost talking about a member of the family or a friend or, and they defend you.

11:56Warren Kornblum:Um, it's also true. If you give them a bad experience, they love to be on the soapbox and social media now is the perfect soapbox. Um, you know, so yeah, I mean, I always, the last point I would make on that is it's also so important from really the first step, uh, that a brand gets into someone's kind of gestalt or wavelength. I always say it, you know, as human beings, like you and I met a week or two ago, and we had, you know, I hope we had like a bond and a connection, and we both have been through some of the same wars, but I only get to say hello to you for the first time once. After that, you have an opinion of me, and maybe I can change it.

12:36And I think brands back the simple are the same way. It's that impression. It's how they feel about you. And anyway, that share heart to me is a connection. No, I love that analogy.

12:45Warren Kornblum:I wrote this, I wrote an article, gosh, a long time ago, and I just resurfaced it. And it's one of the words that I think is most important for brands. And the word is relevance. And I think a close cousin of relevance or in equal of importance is consistency. Yes. Right. And I know that's a very hot button topic for you. And it goes beyond just messaging, right? And what does that, what does consistently, consistency, excuse me, actually look like beyond just messaging? Well, I think, actually, I think messaging is kind of the last stop on the consistency train, if you will. It goes to, and I think relevance is part of it, is important.

13:27You need relevance, which means I care about what you're saying, because if I don't care about what you're saying, I'm tuning you out, no matter where the medium is, right? So it's here, it's social, it's written, it's whatever. So you have to be relevant to me. Two is, I think you have to work at earning my trust. And three is if you transcend trust and you get belief, so I believe in you, then I think you're really well along the way of being a brand leader. In terms of consistency, if you're not absolutely consistent in everything you do and every touch point you have, and consistency is not like a terrible example.

14:02It's not being robotic, that example, because I'm sure we'll touch on AI a bit too, but I don't mean robotic in that sense. But it's not like everybody's just doing the exact same thing. sure, that's consistent, but that's also see-throughable. So consistency is packaging, it's social commitment, it's making sure that your product development, your supply chain, the touch points that you have with the consumer are all in keeping with the kind of DNA of your brand. And if you're trying to achieve share of heart and you have a kink in that consistency chain, it's dangerous. So I think that really brands and companies that are able to work towards that and leaders really have what we talked about earlier, that complete embrace of the mission of the company and what we're trying to achieve and a love for their customers.

14:53Warren Kornblum:Do you think consistency also applies to, and I know history is replete with brands who feel the need to try to change or add on lanes, swim lanes, like for example, and I don't know why this is the first thing i thought of but you're old enough to remember this i think um i think it was was it gerber who came out with like these did you hear about like i think it was the 70s gerber baby food was putting out like frozen dinners or something like that yeah yeah i think you're right and i guess there's no sure this is that is that also an example of consistency stay in your lane stay in your lane but i don't think stay in your lane means never change i think stay in your lane means evolve and evolve in keeping with your customers.

15:35You know, another one that happened after I wrote the book, but, and I'm not expert at it by any means, but think of the upper or about Cracker Barrel. I mean, like I've never, if they're out there, I'm apologizing. I've never eaten Cracker Barrel, but their customers were like really upset. And that means that their customers cared, right? Because otherwise who cares if someone changes a logo? So to me, consistency doesn't mean you have to stay the same, but you have to stay in character, right? If you're my friend and all of a sudden you start doing something really strange, that threatens our friendship, it's usually because you're doing something that's not in character or not consistent for your behavior.

16:19And I think that that's where it is. I mean, brands have to evolve. You can't, brands that don't, and that's something I do have in the book, brands that didn't evolve or fail to realize that consumers are changing. I mean, that customer that you're talking about for Gerber, if they didn't evolve their customer base, they're dying. So you need to evolve and be relevant to the generations of consumers that are coming up, if you can, if you have something that offers. And that, to me, can be consistent. Evolution can be consistent. It's consistent to your character and your brand DNA, or what I call your brand stand to be honest that's that's where that's what the brand stand means oh good point

16:58Warren Kornblum:so we're kind of getting into this this next topic i want to talk about and it's it's brand drift right how brands kind of drift they don't but they don't decline overnight right they drift so what if i'm a cmo what does that drift look like early on what what are some warning signs that wait a minute my brand's starting to drift well i think the first sign i mean i always back to simplicity, I always start and stop at the consumer. And the one thing that the world we live in today with all the technological advances, I mean, in the old days, when I was a CMO, you had to wait, you know, you do a usage and attitude survey and you do a few focus groups, you'd literally wait weeks, months, whatever to find out what the temperature of your customers are, right?

17:40Today, you can do that instantly. You can know what's going on. You can watch things. I think when brands start to drift, they start to not act like themselves is the thing I would say. I mean, they're usually, there's some kind of a competitive influence that they try and answer. And again, I'm not saying don't answer competitive influences. Don't answer if you start to see a shared drift, but solve the problem within the character and the consistent DNA or sand of your brand. Evolve. Don't all of a sudden get schizophrenic. And I think brands can get schizophrenic. And when they do, you may appeal to a few new people, but you're going to lose a lot of the people who've brought you where you are.

18:18I think drifting can be executive change, obviously. And that is risky, but usually there's change because of reasons. But I think someone in the room, and that's probably the CMO, has to be there sitting and saying, okay, I got it. We need to adjust, but we need to adjust in keeping with who we are. Right.

18:39Warren Kornblum:You were at one of the, excuse me, one of the most famous legacy brands, right? Toys R Us. So I want to get into legacy brands and why they lose relevance. And it's not necessarily because they're old, right? It seems like it's because they stopped evolving. Is that true? Yes, 100%. And it's a terrible way to put it, but their customers started evolving out too. I mean, we used to say, I'll go to Toys R Us in a second, but in the furniture business, which I spent a fair amount of time in too, we used to say like once someone gets into their 50s, they're not buying mattresses or refurnishing their houses unless it's second homes, right?

19:12So there's an evolution of the customer base. And if you're not feeding in to younger audiences that are starting to do things, whatever the category is, at the top of the funnel, you're losing your customer base, So the sheer numbers game doesn't work. So I think when you look at legacy brands, they need to embrace their history, but also talk to the new people coming in. So, for example, you did mention Toys R Us. I mean, Toys R Us is probably an example of one of the best or greatest legacy brands in retail of all. And, you know, it's been I left Toys R Us and when it went, I was there when it was public and went to and when it was sold to private equity.

19:50Very smart people who bought it. But when it went to private equity, I left. So I left in about 2006. That's almost 20 years ago. It shocks me, especially with the book coming out. And there's a little bit of it in the book, but there's it shocks me how many people will come up to me socially at book signings, whatever, at speeches. And we'll say, oh, my God, I miss Toys R Us. it's so bad, but it was so, why? I know why, because everything about Toys R Us was about the joy of a kid. And Toys R Us, talk about drift, talk about a lot of things. Toys R Us had competitive challenges in those days.

20:26One of the reasons that the board brought a new team, including me in beginning of 2000, it was Amazon getting into the toy business, Walmart getting into the toy business. And where I think in very, very simple terms, Toys R Us drifted is all of those competitive pressures and new ways of shopping like online toy buying caused it to lose sight, to become a commodity as opposed to an experience. Toys R Us, when people talk about, I love Toys R Us because they were Toys R Us kids. Grandmas were Toys R Us kids. Now moms are Toys R Us kids. And what's happened is that new generation, I know they're trying again.

21:02If they get that new generation to become Toys R Us kids again, then I think, you know but that's what happened it was a classic case it all became about allowances and buying and inventory control and everything and cost the value engineering everything other than customer and I probably I probably feel like you know maybe I didn't do my job well enough because I couldn't

21:23Warren Kornblum:convince the board that the priorities were wrong well I'm sure that was not the issue but because you were an ant you know fighting an elephant kind of thing but it's it's just fascinating to me about these legacy brands and and why is that well i think i know part of the reason but why is evolution so hard when it comes to legacy brands well i think one is it's hard to for them to get out of get out of their own way and you know we were i mean toys r us had that a little bit we were number one so we're always going to be number one these these people aren't going to take away our business online shopping is not going to replace going to a toy store yeah maybe it is so again in my mind Steve, it's losing touch with the consumer and not evolving the consumer.