Liz Roche, Claudia Johnson, Sarah Marzano, Angela Myers & Shweta Bhardwaj - How Retail Media Becomes a Growth Engine

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0:50That's salesforce.com slash consumer goods. Hello and welcome to the CPG Guys podcast set at the intersection of commerce and tech. Your hosts, Sri Raja Goplin and Peter V.S. Bond, explore how brands and retailers engage consumers in a digitally driven world. And now, here are the CPG Guys. Hello and welcome again to the CPG Guys podcast. I'm your co-host, PBSB, who also moonlights as head of industry and client engagement at Flywheel, the commerce acceleration division of Omnicom. My co-host is the co-founder of Think Blue Consulting, the father of pop stars Ria Raj and Cat's Eyes, Lara Raj. Their fans, of course, call him Papa Raj, but to me, he's my BFF, Sri.

1:37Last month, Sri and I attended the Cannes Lions International Festival of Creativity. Today's episode is the recording of a conversation that took place at La Residence, our home on the Riviera. More on that in a moment. To our audience, if you're getting value from these conversations, we have three quick asks. First, subscribe to the CPG Guys on whatever platform you're listening on right now, whether that's Spotify, Apple, Amazon Music, or anywhere else you get your podcasts. Hit that subscribe or follow button so you never miss an episode. Second, please leave us a rating. It takes 30 seconds and it makes an enormous difference in helping other CPG and retail professionals find us.

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2:56This panel is called Beyond the Campaign, How Retail Media Becomes a Growth Engine. It features moderator Sarah Marzano, VP and Principal Analyst for Retail and Commerce Media at eMarketer. Sarah is joined by Liz Roach, Vice President Media and Measurement at Albertsons Media Collective, Claudia Johnson, Chief Technical Advisor to the CEO of Flywheel, Angela Myers, EVP and GM Brand and Commerce at Goodway Group, and Shweta Bardwaj, Partner at Bain & Company. Now let's get to the conversation.

3:34Sarah Marzano: Liz, I'm so excited to have you here because I think Albertsons is one of the media networks that's doing such a great job furthering the entire industry, right? So much good work that you guys are doing. Lately, it's been particularly around measurement and accountability. I think as you think about the future of retail media, if I can ask you to look beyond measurement, what do you think the industry needs to get right over the next five years? I think it's going to be a combination of bringing the media and the merch tactics together to show overall growth. Media in the retail space has lived in a weird little silo.

4:05It doesn't need to, though. And I think more and more we're finding that integrated strategy is actually where our clients are winning. But that also means stepping outside of the campaign viewpoint and getting less myopic and actually thinking about how these strategies work together to drive actual category growth. at the end of the day, as a retailer, you know, we're charged with moving units. And that's good for our shoppers, it's good for our brands, and of course, it's good for us. So bringing all these strategies together and figuring out where there are places of arbitrage, that's what's next for us.

4:33Sarah Marzano: Yeah, I talk about this ad nauseum that I grew up in retail and merchandising, and so this is music to my ears. Can you tell us a little bit about what getting your merchandising organization on board has looked like? Were there any challenges that surprised you? And where do things stand today? What's been really interesting is actually, as we've rolled out our digital in-store network, that has become an interesting common language between us and Merch. The screens live right at the shelf edge, which gets really blurry when you think about who owns what, right? So being able to bring that common space and start orchestrating strategy in the store, as analog as that sounds, it's been one of the big places for innovation for driving this type of integration.

5:11It's been a journey. I think, you know, training people on different languages, We're learning merch language. They are learning media language. And again, coming together with common language has been really important. And that, at the end of the day, centers around category growth. It doesn't center around ROAS. So just changing that orientation toward growth, but also, you know, using the store as an initial format to really get on the same page.

5:33Sarah Marzano: Yeah, no, I think it sort of speaks to the fact that change management, while it's a very difficult thing to accomplish, is becoming increasingly necessary. And just to brag on them for a second, because I've always been impressed with your team from day one when their retail media network launched. They've always had that point of view that it should be joined up. And so I do think that plays into it as well. That was never a question for them. They started as they meant to go and they've continued on that path. No, I think that's absolutely right. And I think I have a prediction that more retailers are going to follow suit.

6:03Sarah Marzano: And I think you're going to feel the benefits of being an early leader in that space because it's not something you can do overnight, right? It's also a super complex space. In media, we have the luxury of having a lot of one-to-one touch points. And the feedback loop is really tight in most places. I mean, there are some exceptions. But you have a little bit of a different playbook in merch. And especially because we have so many different banners. We're operating 2 ,200 stores across the U.S. Every store has its own local flavor. There are a lot of variables. So how do you actually standardize those variables and start measuring them?

6:34It's complex, but I think it's the job to be done.

6:36Sarah Marzano: Absolutely. I think that that segues really nice to the next question, which is just about the fact that we've got a lot of different stakeholders that are involved in retail media decisions, right? And the thing is that retailers, brands, agencies, and then retail media teams often use the same words, but mean really different things, right? Growth, loyalty, penetration, incrementality can all be defined and measured differently depending on who's at the table. Everyone can get on this, but I want to start with Angela. I wonder if you can share where you see some of the clearest examples of teams working toward the same objective, but not using the same vocabulary.

7:11Sarah Marzano: And what do you think needs to happen in order to create a more shared framework? One of the things I think is super interesting is in every single incrementality conversation that I've had with a brand or at a round table with brands and retailers, they can get pretty alive quickly on not just the definition of incrementality, but how important it is. But in every single conversation, the brand always comes back to, yeah, but I didn't grow share. And so the way that they're measuring market share is critically important. But the way they measure market share is not the same way that Albert's measures market share, right?

7:47Because there's different trade areas, there's different definitions of categories and things like that. So I do think there's an opportunity for some of those things that have long been standardized to actually take another look and rethink about the definitions so that they could come to the table and actually help enable this conversation to have that more shared language. Great.

8:06Sarah Marzano: Yeah, Claudia, I wonder, like, it's pretty clear that the industry is not going to solve this overnight, especially considering how long we've been talking about it. What would you kind of advise individual brands or individual retailers or RMNs to do now to better align on this? So first of all, I do want to challenge the question because I actually think there's common language and not common understanding. And my new analogy I've latched on to, which some of you might roll your eyes, is, you know, the Little Mermaid, she's got her gizmets and whatchits, we'll call it. So one of them is a fork and she uses it to brush her hair.

8:38The fork to me is commerce. Like the media teams, the creative agencies are like, yes, we know commerce. They're brushing their hair with the fork. The actual retail team is already eating steak with it. We both know what a fork is. We both believe in the fork, but we have very different understandings of what the fork should be doing. So I know that's weird that it resonates in my weird little brain. So hopefully some of you. That was vivid. My never forget it. So sorry. So I think one way to cut through that is to go back to what really matters. And I think you mentioned it a bit as well, but that is the shopper, the consumer.

9:13The main goal for most companies is household penetration because they want to grow sales, they want to grow share. The way to do that is to win with the consumer. So that should be our central driving force. And I work at an agency and sometimes we do get caught up in our own stuff of, oh, well, did we improve margin or we do this? At the end of the day, did you unpack sales and share because if you didn't, like end of story.

9:36Sarah Marzano: Liz, I don't know if it's cruel to not let you weigh in on this. I was trying to think of ways to keep riffing on the fork in our way. We passed up this works in their silver forks. No. That was really rough. But so I have to agree. I think at a very micro stance, we've done a lot of work talking about IROAS. And at Albertsons, we partnered with Oveda and Kellogg to unpack IROAS and what it really means. And although we're all kind of going into the same meeting, saying IROAS, depending on how it's calculated, depending on match rates, depending on the factor F, depending on how control groups are developed, can change ROAS from positive to negative.

10:16So you're looking at a lot of variation in that, although we're all bringing those same letters to the meeting. I think it is on us as retailers to take that complexity on and explain what that methodology looks like and what it should mean at Albertsons. And these are not portable numbers. You can't just grab all the Albertsons numbers and walk them down to the next retailer. They really are specific to how we do business, how our shoppers shop. And, you know, we try to get as close to the truth as possible because to your point, it's really fun to have a report that says I did great. But did I actually move units?

10:50And at the end of the day, that's what we're all here to do.

10:54Sarah Marzano: I think you all sort of got at an important theme in all of this is that no one has bad intentions, right? When we're defining things differently, hopefully they don't, right? But there's this crucial component of transparency that has to accompany it because no matter what, there's going to be nuances that sit behind the way we arrive at certain metrics. I think something that sort of occurs to me pretty often is that there's a practical challenge, right? Even if we align on the way we're defining things and get really transparent, the fact is that most organizations are incentivized on short-term outcomes, right?

11:25Sarah Marzano: Retail media teams are measured on revenue, advertisers on performance, sales teams on near-term results. But many of retail media's biggest opportunities require a much longer time horizon, right? So, Shweta, I want to go to you. You work with a lot of advertisers over at Bain. How are you thinking about resolving that tension between the fact that everyone's really being held to urgent short-term incentives, right? But in order for this industry to grow and to get the most out of it, we have to start thinking long-term. Yeah, I feel, and many people in this room likely know this, but that is what creates so much tension within advertisers is you have two teams who often are working with two separate agencies who have two entirely different roles.

12:03And so that is generally speaking, and that has resulted in brand teams being incredibly suspicious of retail media, because what's happening to them is they're getting asked to spend more and more on retail media, basically start at the top of the funnel, such that sales teams can be their next day goals, their conversion-oriented goals. I think the good news is what I'm observing and many advertisers who I'm working with is there's an operating model evolution that has started, which is it does not make sense for media to reside in multiple places within an organization. And many large and some of the most sophisticated advertisers are starting to say, we need to pull this together with one group of media specialists, common sets of agencies with specialization.

12:45But we need to come together to look at the full model. And I think that opens the aperture a little bit, but it also comes with some responsibility of retail media networks to educate. And the reason for that is because, again, brands have a lot of suspicion around retail media because of the dynamic that has unfolded. And so I think, you know, it's so refreshing to have this conversation and to hear, gosh, retail media networks really want to sell something, not to just sell something. They want to sell an ad unit that really differentially performs. And I think that brand teams need to hear that kind of more clearly and then they need to see it.

13:17You know, they've been promised an evolution of measurement frameworks for a long time. But now, you know, I feel like that evolution is here and now, and there's a lot of appetite for collaboration to get insure.

13:29Sarah Marzano: And it's an exciting thing, but all the opportunity that opens up if brand side is restructuring, too, to make a more holistic, sort of unified experience. But it sounds like, to your point, there's a level of trust that needs to be either earned or re-earned on the part of the retailers. Liz, I wonder if that's something that you have noticed among your advertising partners, depending on the different state that they might be in, in terms of uniting their own teams and how you navigate that as you think through how to take it? Honestly, everyone is going through a very, not everyone, but I'd say broadly, there is kind of a collapsing happening where teams are starting to work together.

14:01And I think a lot of, we're seeing the benefit of integrating media and merchandising that extends to our CPG partners who are seeing the benefit of their e-commerce teams, their retail media teams and their sales teams coming together. So I think we're going to continue to see that. I think what becomes really interesting is taking all of these data points, for example, in measurement and moving them from retrospective to translated insight that can be applied in the move forward plan. And how do you apply that to a move forward plan that extends beyond just media, that extends into that that merge framework as well and what's happening in store.

14:36But we're seeing a lot of that transition happen. I think a lot of it's happening in conjunction with trying to move to more unified frameworks that help push the ball forward.

14:46Sarah Marzano: Great. Yeah. Okay, we're going to stick on measurement, but move to consumer behavior a bit. Consumer behavior when it comes to shopping and across categories is often shaped by deeply ingrained habits. Angela, you and I were talking about grocery because I know you grew up in that industry. And Claudia, I think you had mentioned the beauty category as being a really unique one as well, right? There's deep habits and loyalties, which makes changing behavior really difficult. Retail media is often discussed as a way to capture demand, but some of the biggest long-term growth opportunities might actually come from helping consumers discover, reconsider, and ultimately change their behaviors over time, which is pretty complex to measure.

15:23Sarah Marzano: So, Claudia and Angela, I want to start with you. Both of you work alongside a wide range of retailers and brands. Given the metrics the industry prioritizes today, what do you think we're missing and where would you like to see the conversation evolve over the next few years? I think what's interesting is that I don't see a lot of retailers measuring actual behavior change, actual perception change alongside all of the effort that they're putting into retail media. I think the other interesting thing is discovery. The path to discovery is changing like literally right now as we speak there's shit.

15:55We don't even know what's going on, right? Right. And so the ability to measure that and the impact that that will have, especially in the grocery space, which is not the same as the beauty space, which is not the same as the home improvement space, right, where people spend an inordinate amount of time thinking about, pondering about, whereas we're so habit ingrained in our CPG everyday life. So I think there has to be some sort of route to discovery. And I think CBG retailers in particular have to spend a lot of time thinking about how do I have that presence online as well as in-store? And I know that's why we have so much in-store activity going on is to inspire differently, but to actually capture the attention and get to the actual conversion.

16:36I think we're going to see a lot of change happen. I'm sure you're already doing some of that. I actually know you are because I read some of the recent announcements. Yeah, so the easy one is lifetime value, which a couple of retailers do have. And that's been helpful because it allows the brands to look at an actual data point instead of trusting the vibes and feelings of the team that owns retail medium. But vibes. But it is hard to be an oak tree and trust that it's going to come to fruition, even if you're staring at data. Because people's reputations and quite frankly, their livelihoods and promotions are on the line within the organizations.

17:11I think the other part that hasn't been solved for, which you started to allude to, is getting a view of that total consumer journey. I really do, and I see it in the data, there's starting to be this shift in certain categories, beauty being one of them, where the discovery and the decision making is happening outside of retail. And so by the time they make it to a Walmart and Albertsons, they're literally there to fulfill an order. Like you can serve them an on-site ad and you are not going to change their mind because they just sat with a TikTok video and wrote down a very specific SKU that they went to go find and purchase.

17:44And that is upending how we think about paid search, for instance. But you have to be able to identify when that behavior is happening. We can see it in the search data because we see we're not converting on those conflicting ads. And that starts a hypothesis and then we go figure it out. But there isn't really good connectivity right now between those. So to me, that would be the interesting one.

18:06Sarah Marzano: I want to pivot to the different sort of channels that exist within retail media. I think something that's very interesting is that most retailers still have room to optimize their owned and operated on-site environments, right? There's growth to be had there that is some of the most margin-rich revenue you can get in retail media. So there's a very good reason to keep working on that. But for most retailers, also, there's a mismatch between the size of their e-commerce business and the size of their customer base and their data assets, right? So if retail media is going to become a larger, more durable growth engine, the growth can't come from on-site alone.

18:42Sarah Marzano: Angela, I want to start with you because there's something that we were discussing when we were getting ready for this, which is that retailer data is widely viewed as valuable, but premium pricing can sometimes limit adoption, especially in off-site environments. So I want to hear from you how the industry should think about balance protecting the value of that data with making it easier or perhaps more palatable for advertisers to adopt. Yeah, when we build plans for brands, I think it is really challenging to determine whether or not we're going to use a retailer's off-site data because of that premium.

19:15And so we look at that value construct based on what we think it will also deliver. And oftentimes it doesn't make the cut. But having been monetizing retail data for a very long time, I think there is a significant opportunity for a different monetization structure when it comes to readily available data, let's say, from an Albertsons online. Because some of the data, you've got households that are spending$10 ,000 plus a year, right? They're so valuable. You know so much about them. And you're able to extrapolate so much from those households. That is highly valuable. That's worth the premium.

19:49But you also have 60 % of your households maybe that shop you very irregularly or randomly. And that's not as valuable, even when you extrapolate. But it's still good audience and good signal. But it is not worth the same. But what we don't see is a lot of the pricing construct of audience reflecting the value of that data. And as somebody that's going to run media for a brand, that's the type of thing that would make me put that in the plan. Like, this is very premium. I'm going to spend some on this because it's so worth it. and vice versa, I need to maybe spend a little bit more over here, but I know that I don't have to pay as much for it.

20:24Sarah Marzano: So maybe like a sort of a segmentation or a tiering approach. I love that. Shweta, again, wanting to hear from you around the advertiser perspective, right? Retailers are pushing hard beyond off-site to drive future growth. I wonder how you're seeing advertiser attitude towards investing in retail media, whether that's off-site or in-store evolve and change. Is the demand growing or are there still a certain amount of convincing that needs to happen in order to get that adoption. Yeah, I mean, just like we survey RMNs in conjunction with eMarketer, we also survey advertisers and there's still apprehension associated, as I'm sure everyone is aware of in terms of both in-store and off-platform ad units.

21:03And I think the reason for that is everything that we've talked about. This notion, it's, you know, a little bit of the historical narrative of these ad units are really expensive. The audiences we are going to target are overly narrow. And, you know, the measurement solutions are generally weak. And I love the notion of starting to think about both the evolution of the measurement solutions to be thinking about things like LTV and repeat purchase, things that RMNs can uniquely measure and other media platforms simply cannot as the data that you share. And also thinking about segmentation. I also think, you know, like any marketer, there's a question of, you know, we've been operating it a little bit in a world of like these walled gardens, right?

21:41Right. And retail media plays a role in a sale or a role in repeat purchase behavior, a role in LTV. But it's not 100 percent of it. Right. It certainly can't be the case. And that's where I think core brand marketers push back and say, how can I believe in this? And so I think there also needs to be a bit of those kind of walls coming down and starting to say, absolutely, retail media is contributing. Like, what is the role of retail media alongside other media platforms as we think about that shopper journey? Liz, I've heard you talk about that a lot, kind of the old school days of multi-touch attribution, right?

22:13How do we actually get into that in this world where we're operating with a bunch of different RMS and consumer shopping and merchant? Yeah, I think that goes back to one of the earlier questions of, you know, people are using different language or they're using the same language, different meanings. Like I was just in a workshop with a brand, all of the agency partners from PR, social, creative, like the whole commerce. and they were talking about this creative idea. It was the point of the workshop is to kind of pressure test the creative idea. It was a great idea, but the shopper barrier for that product was that Gen Zs and millennials, which is who they were going after, were terrified of the category.

22:50They don't shop the category. What category? I don't want to name it because you don't know what kind it is, but it's an impossible cleaning. I'll say that. So they're scared of the category. And even though the creative was great, it didn't do a good job of convincing people this wasn't terrifying. And so I was like, that doesn't help me. You're going to send this demand that you've just spent money generating to commerce and it's going to fall flat because you haven't addressed the shopper barrier. But I think innately, and I'm sure great marketers think this way, like a lot of marketers don't think about the shopper barrier because it lived in the silo that the customer teams thought about.

23:26And unless the customer team is elevating that concern, those dots aren't getting connected. And that goes back to my fork analogy. They're like, we've done what we're supposed to do. I'm not going to let it go. It's a good analogy. By the way, I love that. And we talked earlier about retail media growing categories, not just individual brands. And I think that's a really interesting place for innovation. How does a retail media work with a handful of CPGs to really drive growth of the category in a world where every CPG is imperative right now is volume-driven, which has been kind of elusive post-pandemic.

23:59And so I think about categories like cereal, the category that's unnamed, your unnamed category, like it's fundamentally defining categories. And, you know, while there's one perspective where they can't be safe, there's another perspective of actually maybe we can galvanize around category growth and we've got some willing market participants and RMNs who want to kind of take that challenge.

24:19Sarah Marzano: Yeah, no, I love that. And I think, and it tees me up well to Liz, The next thing I sort of wanted to mention is it sort of occurs to me that one of the challenges with moving off-site and in-store and retail media is that we've sort of gotten spoiled in terms of the precise measurement we're able to get from on-site apps, right? And so this is your full job, right? How do you balance the pressure to kind of expand? No pressure. It's your whole job, Liz. I'm sorry. You said that because every time we prep something, I say, don't worry, it's my whole job. Yeah, let's hear it. Let's hear it. I got that from you.

24:49Sarah Marzano: I learned it from you. But how do you think about balancing the urgency to expand with the fact that it's quite difficult? We have to develop new ways to get to that measurement that we're used to getting. Or maybe we have to accept getting different measurement than we're used to getting. Yeah, we have gotten very spoiled in the one-to-one world. And frankly, that is the value prop of retail media, being able to close the loop, right? And also Albertsons, for example, we do have such a big loyalty base that we can get down to that one-to-one in most places. But we know, to your point on shopper journey, like there's this is very complex.

25:21It's not just I went to the Albertsons app and then I went directly to the store. I did a whole bunch of other stuff. And for those reasons, I think we need to kind of we can't let good be the enemy of perfect or perfect be the enemy of good. Yeah, there's the one. Because again, when we talk about measurement, like a lot of this is, it's all retrospective. The value of measurement comes from translating it into an actionable insight. That is the value of measurement. It's not just you put it on the fridge and get a gold star. It's actually changing your behavior moving forward based on an informed piece of research that you've been able to conduct.

25:55So I think as we kind of blend into new mediums, as we move into store. Digital out of home, I think, is coming way back. Audio also. I've had so many conversations about audio. As these mediums come into play, they aren't going to be one-to-one mediums. We need to design campaigns with the intent of learning something. I think just waiting for the report is probably not the way to go. But saying to yourself, hey, if these two channels work together, do you think I can get a better result? Or do I think I can drive shopper behavior in my movable middles, if I combine these channels and this message, if you can go into it with those learnings and with those objectives and actually get some directional learnings, you can apply those and move the ball forward without having that perfect one-to-one.

26:41So I think there's going to be a balance. You're going to have those really, really, really clean studies, and then you're going to have some directional stuff. And if that moves the ball forward, you got to go with that.

26:50Sarah Marzano: When I think back to my days in retail, the thing I always remember is the so what, now what, right? You can understand your sales from the past week. You can analyze them every which way and tell a story about them. But if you don't have the action that your buyers get to yell at you, but you really have to look at it. We have a similar problem. We should talk. All right. We're running out of time. I want to close with a quick lightning round for everyone. We've all been talking about sort of what needs to happen in order to move the industry forward and fulfill its potential. I want you each to mention something the industry should absolutely stop doing.

27:23Sarah Marzano: Schwetza, I'm going to have you go first and we'll go down this line. Absolutely. I think traditional ROAS is dead in the era of retail media. And so we have to stop thinking about measurement solutions as ROAS, core traditional ROAS based. Love it. I think we have to stop thinking that media itself is the growth engine here and that it integrated with all of the other elements of retail and brand is the actual true growth engine. Love that. I don't know if this is a cheater answer, but stop ignoring the need for organizational change, change management, training. To me, the technology and the retailers is not the problem.

28:04The people is the, I'm going to say opportunity, so it is the same thing.

28:08Sarah Marzano: People is the opportunity. That's not a cheat answer. You saw my presentation. Yeah, so I'm grading everyone, so you're good. We've talked about this, but we need to stop talking about the consolidation of retail media where we all shop at the same, you know, brandless box and buy the brandless items. For as long as stores exist and people are going to them, those retail media networks are also going to exist. Like, I think that kind of fear factor of like we're all moving into, you know, we're going to wear uniforms and drink protein shakes for every meal. I didn't say it, you did. But I think we should stop that.

28:42I think you should instead talk about the benefits of working with multiple retailers, understanding that every retailer is serving a shopper's purpose in a given moment.

28:51Sarah Marzano: Yeah, I think that's a fantastic note to end on. This has been a really fun conversation. Thanks, everybody.

29:00To our listeners and the over 46 ,000 followers on LinkedIn, thank you for doing what you do every day. Whether you're building brands, driving retail partnerships, deploying technology, or shaping the future of commerce, You are the industry we cover, and this podcast exists because of you. If today's conversation sparks something for you, a new idea, a fresh perspective, just a reminder of what this industry is worth showing up for every day, share it, tag us, tell a colleague. The more voices we bring into this community, the sharper all of us get. Until next time, keep pushing the conversation forward.

29:37I'm PBSB on behalf of my co-host, Papa Raj. This has been the CBG Guys.

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