Sean Halter & Steven Moy - The Digital Fix Cross-Over

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0:50Sean Halter: That's salesforce.com slash consumer goods.

1:20Steven Moy: You are listening to Season 5 of The Digital Fix. This is Sean Halter with my partner Stephen Moy. We're here at Advertising Week. It's a full house. We're doing a double episode, in essence. It's like this Friends crossover. Because we're here with the CBG Guys, should we introduce yourselves?

1:34Sean Halter: Welcome to the CBG Guys podcast. I am your co-host, the adorable PBSB. I'm joined, as always, by my co-host. He is the father of pop stars, Lara Raj from Cat's Eye and Rhea Raj. the fans of course call him Paparaj. I call him the man known as Shree. Shree.

1:52Steven Moy: We're here at Advertising Week. This whole podcast for us is presented in part by Moy and Halter as well as Mios, the Marketing Intelligence Operating System. Shree, Peter, anybody you guys want to plug? The first thing I'm going to plug is I want you all to know we have a second podcast coming shortly. Watch out on LinkedIn for what it is and make sure to tune in because not only will it be just on business, it's going to be about human adaptability is about altis and leave it at that. Steven, kick us off a little bit. What are you doing here at Advertising Week other than literally you're a couple blocks away and so it only makes sense for you to walk down?

2:25Sean Halter: I think I was invited to speak. I've been frequent speaking at Advertising Week. Always a great platform. This week, I want to hear more about, you know, we talk about it, right? Too many conversations, too many AI-related conversations. I felt like there's a lot of noise out there and we want to see more clarity in terms of people talking about, like, connected data, humanity and talking about it. There's too many things going on.

2:49Steven Moy: Peter, for our listeners, our podcast is called Digital Fifts. It's mostly about how you're fixing digital out there, what's happening, what adjustments you need to make to it. A lot of our guests are often talking about that. To your point, Stephen, AI is constantly part of that. For our listeners who don't know what you guys do, talk a little bit about the CPG Guys podcast itself.

3:07Sean Halter: We like to think that we are squarely ensconced at the intersection of commerce and technology. and we're really exploring how brands and retailers engage consumers in a digitally driven world. So I know it's very encompassing, but what we're really trying to understand is all this tech that's available to us and all these new ways in an omni-channel world to execute media and then for consumers to buy products, how do we connect the dots there to help brands invest wisely?

3:39Steven Moy: The only other thing, Peter, I'll add is every now and then we do have an episode on what most of our listeners will say, boring grocery merchandising. Yeah.

3:47Sean Halter: The oldest form of, I would say, retail that exists. What percentage of traditional center store grocery products are still sold in physical? 80 % approximately. That's right. Here's the problem,

3:59Steven Moy: which let's ask you, Sean, that question, because you're talking to brand marketers in not just this podcast, but also on the CMO suite. Yeah. And you're hitting CMOs. In a world where 20 % of sales happens online, so accoutrement, 80 % happens physical, yet the consumer is 100 % digital. How should brands be dealing with that? What do you want to see at Adweek? I feel like the biggest thing they need to figure out is how to speak to the C-suite because the C-suite's head is sometimes off in a different direction. They think everybody can be replaced by AI. They think that all we need to do is just pull Claude or chat into the system.

4:36Steven Moy: Suddenly the sales are just going to go up and, you know, the profit margins go up. So to me, I think that's where some of those CMOs are struggling right now. That's where a lot of the brand marketers, I feel like, are struggling right now. Totally.

4:48Sean Halter: I think, you know, people, it's kind of like mobile phone. We talk about it, right? Back in the day, right? Not too long ago, mobile phone came out. If your brand not on a mobile app, you don't exist. Now everything is AI. And I think it overly romanticized the emotional connection side. I don't think AI is there. So that's why in person, to your point, in store is still very important. The brand needs to connect to you emotionally. A lot of time, your sales associate, your physical setup, we connect with them giving that brand experience, that digital sale, probably mimicking the physical experiences.

5:24Steven Moy: But then, Peter, isn't AI-based product detail pages a risk for brands?

5:29Sean Halter: Listen, well, in general, what we're going to see at Ad Week this week is a whole lot of talk about AI. Sure. And what we're not going to see enough of, and I'm sorry, I am the son of two PhDs in economics. To me, it's about the performance and the measurement. I don't know that we're going to see nearly enough about connecting the investment with the actual outcomes. We're really overwhelmed with all the capabilities that AI can do from a creative perspective, from a programmatic perspective, but just a little too much grading of your own homework and not enough very understandable ways. Because at the end of the day, these investments against retail media, against creator economy, the decisions are moving up the food chain right beyond the CMO to the board level.

6:22Sean Halter: And if they don't have, if the CFO can't explain what they got for their dollars, those investments aren't going to get made.

6:29Steven Moy: But to that point, Sean, don't brands have to be more experiential? I think they've got to touch everything. Peter, you also, speaking of touching us, you just touched on the fact of what we think we'll see at Advertising Week. We were lucky enough to have Ruth, the head of Advertising Week, on our podcast this week. You can, of course, listen to the entire episode at digitalfix.com. The one thing she did mention, Peter, which I think was something we wanted to dig in, is just the mental aspect of all this. the amount of pressure that everybody's feeling at all of these levels to ensure that AI is incorporated, that to your point, the CFO's got what he needs, everybody has what they need.

7:03Steven Moy: We're all sitting around these days, banging on our computers, yelling at ourselves, because the box that we're talking to is trying to talk back to us. So I do think there are, if you can find them outside of the PR stuff, there are some moments at advertising this week that will speak to some of those itches that do need to be scratched.

7:20Sean Halter: You know, you've got leadership of that is, to your point, screaming and yelling about what are we going to do about all this transformation? Now, you have a couple of different types of CEOs. You can have a CEO that really doesn't have a handle on what's going on. And every time they see something online, an email comes their way. They forward to their CMO. They forward to their CTO and say, what are we doing about this? What are we doing about this? And then what ends up happening is they're like putting out forest fires that are spurring up. And on the other hand, you can also have a CMO, a CEO rather, who's an engineer who actually understands the nuances between what we use this model LM for and what we use that model LM for.

8:05Sean Halter: And that presents an entirely different kind of need from a CMO and a CTO in terms of how they engineer their companies to actually leverage all those transformations.

8:17Steven Moy: What are you talking about? What are you going to talk about?

8:21Sean Halter: Funny, the topic is talking about a debate between always on marketing versus big splash. I said, really? Okay. So that's also a component to it. But I do like what Peter is talking about, too. You know, a lot of time, you know, we are witnessing the fastest adoption or acceleration of AI innovation, right? Faster than anything I've seen. Every other way, you've got new model coming in. But two front is very interesting. A lot of people still looking at the marketing automation side of the house. Not truly. We are witnessing a paradigm shift. The potential, there's no more click or screen base.

8:57Sean Halter: You will be using a problem or voice. finally can interrupt. Like, as Keith, like 20 years ago, remember that, the search engine back in the days, too early for that time, right now for now. But you're witnessing a paradigm shift, like cross-generationally, they're using AI to do tasks, daily tasks, itinerary planning, the whole thing. To find stuff. But then the second component is, a lot of people jumping, calling themselves an AI company. I will ask you, they're on rented intelligence, because all the OMS doesn't belong to them. They should create their own enterprise. Remember in 2000, the greatest idea that came out of a CMO is let's add.com at the end of our name.

9:39Sean Halter: Sounds like we're adding let's add a.com.

9:41Steven Moy: That one works. I don't know. Shree, you're going to get the next question, but let me just say one thing. We have to always listen to what Stephen is saying, only because when he says models, I never know if he's talking about the girls that he's going out with, if we're talking about AI. I never know. Go ahead, Shree. The time is yours. I don't know. My kids are supermodels now. Are there supermodels out there in this AI space? You tell me. One important thing I want to ask all three of you. Is that what superintelligent supermodels are? I don't think those two go ahead again. No, no, no. The LLMs are supermodels.

10:10Steven Moy: Sorry. I'd like to go in order. Let's do Peter first. Let's do it. Steven, then I'd like to get your opinion. Again, you're talking to brands every day. I want to talk about live content creation as well as digital creators. What happens to those two in a world of AI? Because, Peter, those conversations are taking place at Adweek, not as much as AI. We recorded an episode this morning about digital creators. We're doing one this evening with Amazon on live studios. Peter, Steve, Sean, let's just hear from all of you.

10:38Sean Halter: The biggest thing that needs to take place is that democratizing the access and the connection between brands and creators needs to take place for this to scale. And what that means is you need to work in a marketplace environment where people know how to buy programmatically, essentially. but not so automated that the human aspect of creators is completely lost. But if you can bring creators to a marketplace, make it so that a brand can understand how to invest and find them and do so at scale, that is going to dramatically increase the share of budgets that brand advertisers are allocating against creators.

11:20Sean Halter: Right now, it's probably about 2%. It should be five times that or more.

11:24Steven Moy: That's a number, but I want to hear from Mr. XCMO.

11:28Sean Halter: I truly agree, right? We're still working with a lot of brands. So, and then I talked to, they don't, they cannot even keep up with the pace, like, you know, content velocity, right? That's all we've been talking about, everybody talking about. Finally, you got tools. And I think that's an opportunity creating a more, because with the tools we have, even in-house brand, they can crank out content as long as with policy, right? Support, governance.

11:50Steven Moy: To me, I feel like everything new is actually old again. This is all just DJ endorsements, to my feeling. It's just DJ endorsements. You're talking to somebody or you're seeing somebody. We should call Diplo. It's just talking to somebody who you have a familiarity with that's talking about a specific product. I think the scale to all of our points, and Sri, obviously, you'll have a take on that as well. You have two daughters who are both influencers right now. Creators. They're creators. They really are. And so at the end of the day, I think where the technology can help is how do you create those touch points at scale, but also be able to dig into the data because the human element of that is still very involved.

12:27Steven Moy: Sri, if anybody, you should probably tell us your opinion on it. The part I think Adweek is going to miss on the conversation, it's early. We're recording on Monday morning when Adweek just launched, so we'll have to see three days later where we landed. I think Stephen barely touched the surface of it. we're launching a second podcast where every other episode will be on this which will be about the human element the human adaptability the world is changing 800 miles an hour ai is going to force change 10 times 20 times a million times faster than change happened with the iphone and what does it mean for human beings what does it do to stress you you kind of mentioned that what does it do to the pace of working what does it do to cortisol in your brain what does it do to your job function?

13:08Steven Moy: What do you have to learn as a result? Are you going to lose your job? Are you going to be in a better position? Why are we not having these conversations? I worry about that. It's monetization. You got to figure out who's going to pay for the time of it. Stephen, you get the next question.

13:20Sean Halter: I got the next question? Well, I still want to talk about the enterprise out of the realm. Is that the real thing? Yes, I do. Yeah, talk about it.

13:27Steven Moy: We got a few more minutes. You're renting intelligence, if I were any big brands. Stephen, are you renting or are you giving it away to somebody else like Google. I'm still renting all the credit.

13:38Sean Halter: We've got one in the house. Not bad. I think when you have investment R &D, right, you know, innovation R &D for a corporate brand, I do believe they should cover some dollars and create their own intelligence. You know your customer better than the OOM, like for example, but they are not connecting the internal data. The amount of information that brands have on their consumers just from their help desk where people call in, there's a disconnect. They have a wealth of knowledge. They could turn that into a powerful product to help them invent and innovate to address concerns that consumers have voiced.

14:17Sean Halter: It truly is mind-blowing how disconnected enterprise brands are to the data sets they have and their ability to really - And what if they just took all of that and did what Stephen said, Private LLM for your use within that brand. And some of them here, the building we're in right now, Omnicom Build OAI, which is a giant private LLM that takes advantage of the ones that are out there, but it's created its own initiative. That's how successful companies will harness the assets they have, the data assets, to build their business.

14:53Steven Moy: I'm going to self-plug for just a moment because, again, I own Muse Intelligence. Yeah. I feel like we've built some elements of some of that, which, thank you, which is, you know, especially for those brands who are not Omnicom, especially for those agencies who are not Omnicom, who can't necessarily afford to build all those parts. Steven, you and I had a big pitch with a massive global brand this past week for Q4 budgets. And the reality is that pitch was formulated by taking some of that intelligence out of Mios and dumping it into some of the LLM systems. So I think that's maybe, to me, one of those disconnects is you're using maybe your own LLM or you're using a version of that.

15:28Steven Moy: You're forgetting the extra fuel from either first-party data or from outside-party data like us really can build on that and help you close that business. Mark my words, Peter. You heard it here first on the CPG guys along with the digital fix. Someday he's going to sell that LLM for multiple. We'll make money.

15:43Sean Halter: I like it. My big question for you all, and I'll start with Stephen, is what's not being talked about here? Oh, I still believe, right? People follow the shiny object. They talk about computing. We talk about all the hardware innovation, CES, all the touch on it. And guarantee everybody talk about their own, you know, or what kind of AI deployment they have. I think connected data. Why is no one talking about investing, connecting data, connect all the dots together? Is it because it's not sexy? I think it's not sexy. But it's meaty. It's IT stuff. Yeah.

16:17Steven Moy: But you need to run AI. You need data anyway.

16:20Sean Halter: Yes. So you don't borrow data. You should have your own data put it together.

16:24Steven Moy: I'm going to say what I think they don't talk about enough, which is failures. I think there are not nearly enough sessions at these events with people who are willing to stand up there and say, I failed. Like, I failed miserably with this company or that company. And that's where we learn. We don't learn as much from our success. Failures are way more valuable.

16:43Sean Halter: There's steps in our business.

16:44Steven Moy: But it's hard to find a sponsor for failure. and therefore it's hard to have somebody up on stage because we all know there's a little bit of some money always involved. But I'd love to hear more about that. I want to go back to the LLM piece again. And I think the conversation that is missing. I was actually at Austin last week on Wednesday doing a live podcast for Steebo Systems, which is a unified master data management system with quite a bit of discussion about you need unified master data management equal to good LLM across multiple functions in a corporate infrastructure, private, of course.

17:19Steven Moy: Good LLM equal to good AI, good outcomes. Bad LLM equal to bad AI. Remember, somebody said, garbage out. No, no, no. What does a bad LLM do? Annihilates humans by 2030. That's what was said. I don't want that. I was going to go with hallucinations,

17:37Sean Halter: but you've gone full Terminator.

17:39Steven Moy: A little bit about that. I didn't say it. It was said in the industry by somebody 8x more powerful than I am. Million X. Whatever it was. Fair enough. Guys, we have a responsibility and that's why we're having the discussion. We want to prevent the human annihilation. No Skynet, please. No Skynet. David, as always, you get the last word. What's the word we need to know for this week at Advertising Week?

17:56Sean Halter: I think I'd be brave. Be brave. Be brave. You have to be brave. Couldn't agree more.

18:01Steven Moy: Got to be brave. Listen, on behalf of the CPG guys, Sri and Peter, on behalf of, of course, us over here at The Digital Fix, Sean and Stephen Moy, we want to thank you guys for listening to this double episode First time we've done it. We hope there will be more from there. Thank you guys for listening. Enjoy the week.

18:40Sean Halter: contained in this episode should be construed as advice from CPG Guys, LLC, or the individual, author, hosts, or guests, nor is it intended to be a substitute for research on any subject matter. Reference to any specific product or entity does not constitute an endorsement or recommendation by CPG Guys, LLC. The views expressed by guests are their own, and their appearance on the program does not imply an endorsement of them or any entity they represent. The views expressed by CPT Guys LLC do not represent the views of their employers or the entity they represent. CPT Guys LLC expressly disclaims any and all liability or responsibility for any direct, indirect, incidental, special, consequential, or other damages arising out of any individual's use of, reference to, or inability to use this podcast or the information we present in this podcast.