Britney Spears and how the media lost its mind

31:39yeah I mean I think journalism depends on the practitioner right there's such a wide spectrum of what we can call a journalism now I mean like is like the average youtuber I mean a lot of youtubers like will stand outside or like or the people that'll do like kind of the man in the street journalism with you know the little microphone and they consider themselves like doing journalism and you're like is that different from the vox pop thing like no but it's like it kind of depends on who's doing it you know this is one of the things I was like trying to like wrestle with in the book. It's like is knocking on Brad Pitt's manager's door to get some quote about something.

32:14Is that more immoral than when like there's a tragic car accident and a reporter goes like four hours later to the family's house and is knocking on their door at their worst moment, a moment like so grim that you couldn't even imagine it. Whereas like the Brad Pitt thing is just like a trifling column, you know, little note that everyone will forget the next day. Whereas like the family that has suffered this kind of tragedy, they will remember that reporter like haunting them, like wrapping on their fucking door at like they're low. So, I mean, I don't know. Like, I mean, there's obviously the Janet Malcolm kind of theory of like the immorality of journalism, which I think like I'm going to subscribe to to a point.

32:49But again, immorality. Yeah, immorality. Yeah, it's a better way to describe it. But yeah, I think these are the qualities that made me like maybe not like the best. I would never say that I was that Mel was the best photographer, like Oliver, like he was the best paparazzi. Like I was not the best tabloid journalist by any stretch of the imagination. I'm surprised that like people haven't come out like and been like, actually, he was pretty mid, you know, but I think that's probably hopefully because like, it's a redeeming quality. Like, it's also the same quality that makes me like, sometimes I'm like, not enough of a killer.

33:20Sometimes when I'm writing a feature where I'm like, I don't know, I kind of like this person. Like, why do I need to like, I had this conversation the other day where it's like very strange. And this is, I'm sure something both of you guys have done like many, many times where it's like I'm not talking about like Drew's infamous little Dickie profile where you're like Drew is really I mean that was public good where Drew wrote that piece but I'm talking oh where you meet somebody that's like I don't know like Zach Braff like I profiled Zach Braff once like do I think Zach Braff is the greatest filmmaker no do I think Zach Braff was the most likable decent guy no but he didn't strike me as like a bad guy and like how am I supposed to know anything about him really in our one hour conversation it's all a public show so am I supposed to then like turn his quotes into a weapon to punish Zach Braff because I didn't like Garden State enough you know and because I don't like what you do with the shins and it's a very weird psychology of a journalist like taking these little brief windows into a person's psyche that are kind of artificial in the first place like I remember Esquire sent me once to go hiking with Kristen Bell it's like what the fuck it's like put me on this like fake ass date with Kristen Bell like what is wrong you know what I mean why are we doing this yeah like I don't have any insight into how they are, you kind of get like a little glimpse at best.

34:30So I think it's all sort of a dog and pony show in a lot of ways, especially now. And I'm not saying like, what the best reporters that like that, that eight great investigative reporters left, but the rest of us, it's like, I don't know, this is something I was wrestling with when I was doing the music journalism. Like, I mean, like, the Draco case, when I was reporting that, that felt very real to me. And that felt like I was like doing something that was like publicly beneficial. But otherwise, like a lot of the time, you're kind of just doing like, like light service journalism and sort of that's kind of what the tabloids are doing unless they go to the extreme where they're like, you know, digging through Mary Kate Olson's like garbage to find the cocaine residue.

35:03So it didn't lead me with the feeling that journalism was necessarily an amoral tool or like, where do you stand on that? I think it's like hard to say whether it's like moral, amoral or immoral. I think it's capable of being all three. And it just sort of, I mean, I will say that I absolutely hated what I was doing. Like I would call my mom like all the time and my dad, like didn't care. My dad's like, you need to like make money. Don't complain to me about any of this shit. My dad would just be like, you chose a bad profession, go to law school. And my mom would like, you know, have sympathy.

35:34But again, like, I hated what I was doing. It was awful. Like I found it like beneath me and pernicious and and low level malevolent. But then like sometimes like it would be totally like anodyne and sometimes fun. And you know what I mean? It was kind of like a complicated series of manipulation, actually, because they'd kind of like, they'd be like okay well you can go to the palm springs film festival and we're gonna put you up in a hotel for like a night and you're gonna interview and that was true in the book like you know interviewed scarlett johansson for like 30 seconds about like pink floyd that was kind of providing a service that like keeps the wheels moving and the entertainment yeah like you know fans want to read it she wants publicity the movie and yeah and then there's the other thing worth noting that it's like yeah they want this publicity i mean like oliver mel would tell me all the time how people would call him up and be like, we're going to lunch at the Ivy, be there for photos.

36:27I'm pretty sure that like when Britney did call when Britney made her like public debut with Kevin Federline, I'm pretty sure that like they she had called the paparazzi to be there if my reporting and memory serves me right. And very famously, you know, obviously, there's a scene with Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie and they're like treating me like I'm some kind of like paparazzi monster. And this only came out like I want to say like eight to 10 years ago. But when she made her public, like, OK, I'm ready to unveil Brad Pitt. Like she called like a paparazzi to be there in Africa to take photos of her and him on like this like secluded beach.

37:00And of course, like everyone's like, oh my God, I can't believe these horrible people would follow them to the ends of the earth. And then like there she is like calling them and it was like a speaker or whatever. So again, you know, I worked for people and I thought that people was, you know, they were like the top of the top and totally bloodless and they would never put you into harm's way. And it turned out people put me in like the most severe harm's way. And I was just a dumb kid that didn't know any better. And like, does that mean I don't deserve responsibility? No, of course I deserve responsibility.

37:26I should have thought more. But the irony is the only time I ever got in trouble with it was when I was working for people because I dropped like I didn't have my wits about me because I was like, oh, people would never do that to you. So imagine if you had worked for Vice, you probably also would have ended up in jail. If you wanted to like do like the global news or murdered somewhere like, yeah, I would have liked to have done that like noisy things where they always would tell them. I was like, you guys could get somebody like a little less white. Like, not to say like you don't need to get too crazy, but I was like, you shouldn't hire a guy that's like translucent.

37:59And it's like, show me the dope spot, guys. That era is over, too. I do want to push back a little bit, though, on what you were saying of just like these interviews that we might be doing with like musicians or celebrities. And I mean, I hear what you're saying about like the, are we like obligated if we think someone's like an interesting person or a nice person? Like, are we obligated to like rack up dirt? And I just think the whole, the like why like to even do these kind of pieces has like changed so much. I feel like that's not really like talked about enough really. You know, pre the giant PR machine, pre the social media and all that.

38:38journalists, even like sort of culture journalists, music journalists, we were giving people that information they couldn't otherwise access. And I think above all what we were giving people, and I think this still remains, this is what I'm pushing back on is context. Yeah, for sure. You know, and I don't know where like morality like fits into that anymore. But I think it's less about like truth or, you know, asking tough questions. Of course, of course, it's still about asking tough questions. But especially when it's something that feels a little bit like softer or more featurey. I think the indelible thing that people can't get elsewhere that journalists can still give folks is context, you know, totally.

39:14And I'd argue, obviously, that like criticism is insanely important. And like, you know, when I did the Post Malone story, I remember someone was like, Oh, you should profile him. And I was like, No, I don't want to profile him. Because I know that if I go profile Post Malone, I'll find him kind of like all of his qualities, like kind of charming. And I'll be able to like, overlook the fact that I find his music repulsive. But that was like, well, I was like, okay, criticism is, is arguably more, see, I would argue that kind of service journalism profile is less important than it used to be, even though I love a good, don't get me wrong.

39:43Like I love a good profile, but like, like the negative one, whatever, but I would argue the negative criticism, whether you want to call it a hit piece or just like a thing that reckons with someone's art and why they kind of are this like empty shell of a figure. I think that's never been more important because we live in a society where now everything is marketing. Right. And like now, unfortunately, journalists have become just another like nexus pinpoint in someone's like marketing plan. And like, yeah, just like I mean, social media obviously comes in at the end of this book, too. And that kind of does take away the power of the journalists because people will be like, oh, well, why do the tablets not exist?

40:15And because it's like Instagram exists, you know, and now they can get to stage their own photo shoots and they can stage their own paparazzi style photo shoots. They don't need this kind of medium to get them publicity. I think when I asked the morality question, I was referring less to the idea of like culture journalism profiles, which I think contain usually some degree of like advocacy, especially if it's like a smaller artist. And I was referring more to know the idea that like whatever is in Britney Spears garbage deserves to be reported on or like invasion. The reason why this is on my mind is I've been thinking a lot about the media's treatment of Zoran Mamdani, obviously and that story where they like reported on his college application and they got the information from a eugenicist guy who they granted anonymity the reason why I asked that is like do you see anything different between like the worst of what you saw back then and that and is the difference just that the New York Times has a veneer of respectability and that they're like They're very good at articulating how what they did fell within classic journalistic standards.

41:25You saw the note of the standards editor defending how the story adhered to the letter of the law of journalism, but not the spirit of the law. Or in my opinion, not the spirit of the law of journalism. And do you see anything different there? Well, I'd argue that politicians need to and should be and often aren't held at a higher standard than celebrities. I think who cares about celebrities? Like that, that's like my notion, like who cares about the morality or the perceived morality of a celebrity? Like I assume they're all and I guess you could make the same case where I assume all politicians are generally bad narcissists, like at heart, like I don't I don't believe in a good politician.

42:00Like I just don't anymore. And maybe I'm a nihilist for that. But it's like, I find that about almost all aspects of American life, like the desire for fame and prestige, and like the narcissistic quality that only I can say, you know what I mean? Like, I just find everyone like that personality. it's like people were asking me the question about Puff Daddy, right? Like, and I'm like, well, yeah, like, of course, like Puff Daddy to go to that level that he was at had to be a sociopath. Like, I find that about almost all people that rise to that level. And I think that didn't used to be the case.

42:27I think that's like a bug in American life. And that has now become like the feature of American life. But I would say also the trend of what you're saying does start in this era where I would argue now we are all living in a tabloid world. I think everything is covered like gossip and tabloids. And the blog certainly ushered that in. but the tabloids were kind of the inception moment of it. I mean, like, look, you can obviously go back to the JFK thing where like JFK, like people always say that. They're like, if he was president now, like imagine all the scandals that would have been unearthed.

42:55The book kind of watches it evolve. Whereas like the paparazzi, even the paparazzi who are like these maligned creatures at the beginning of the book are mostly kind of adhering to like a kind of antiquated code that sounds almost like Camelot-esque, you know? And that was the thing that I wanted to express with the Oliver Mel character was, you know, he was not, I'm not going to argue for the morality of what he was doing because like I like I don't think anyone was doing anything that was really good at that time that is like really that defensible. But I do think in contrast to his what became that world, you know, now where it's like you have TMZ cameras like stalking people on video all the time.

43:33And sometimes they're like totally inconsequential people and it has gotten completely worse. And I think didn't unfortunately, our world is just like a ribbon with this, you know, it's just all shallow ephemeral bullshit and like that's what people want though and at the end of the day it all goes back to what people want and now we have like this other algorithmic factor like overriding it all which is like preying upon the most negative impulses of the human brain exploiting us and we're like trapped in this cycle and i don't really know how to get out of it you know i don't think anybody does other than like you know just like burn the computers and kill the robots which i'm before.

44:09Write books about the heyday of the tabloid era and the aughts and how it gave way to all of this, maybe. I don't know. People read. Which takes us to the next question, which is, you know, do you see a mirror of today's internet journalism in what you experienced back then? Do you feel like we were witnessing the end of an era in culture journalism or maybe the beginning of a new one? I mean, I think what's interesting about it was it's like a transitionary period, right? Whereas like the book starts, like right as old media starts to die. You know, it's like a friend of mine once said, like a millennial is somebody that like went to school or went to high school, learning to do like print journalism.

44:48And by the time they got out of college, it no longer existed in any kind of meaningful way. And I found that to be true. I think we we were in this transitionary period, pre social media, but post internet, and you can kind of see these forces kind of beginning to coalesce, right? Like, you know what I mean? What would Perez Hilton have been today, but an Instagram page? What would all of them, you know, they were all proto Instagram pages, they weren't exactly like, they weren't exactly writing like essays, like in the glory days of blog spot, you know, they were just like one line with a cocaine booger, you know, so like, those are proto Instagram kind of influencer type pages.

45:22And yeah, like, I think like, now, there's so many parallels that are easy to kind of spot of that world. one of the things that always struck me was you know going back to kind of i guess the previous question was when britney was interviewed by matt lauer and at the time there were still these um you know of course who like famously got canceled for being like a total creep so like not that shocking i guess when you watch that interview again but you have this like 23 year old young woman who's like you know never went to i don't think she she did graduate high school but like you're not that educated of a person obviously very shrewd in a lot of ways just like never really did anything wrong like britney never really did anything i think like really like out of She never struck me as doing anything like so publicly immoral or anything.

46:01She struck me as like basically a nice person that kind of like started to suffer and got caught up in the storm of it all and eventually couldn't control it. But if you watch this NBC News Matt Lauer interview again, it's like, hey, why the fuck is Matt like, like what? Like going back to your Zoran question, it's like, why is Britney Spears like nightly new? You know what I mean? Like, shouldn't we be covering like an armed conflict somewhere in the world or like the starvation of people or whatever it is, you know, like some natural disaster affecting people. We weren't because ratings and, you know, Matt Lauer is interviewing her and he has this like veneer of the nightly news, right?

46:36Where, you know, the newscaster voice was like, and now Britney Spears, you know, like that voice. But then they're showing all these like tabloid headlines. So like you're using these tabloid headlines to be like, wink, wink, this is actually what's really happening. But I, Matt Lauer, I'm so above this reality. I don't need to come you know what i mean but you are and they would use it and now like i don't think we have like as many layers i think we just got go straight to the thing and maybe it's like less fake in a way but also like shows the degradation of our society i don't know it was a weird fucking time like why is diane sawyer making her cry on national tv like what is wrong with you know what i mean and now like we're like well obviously the sickness in american life didn't necessarily start here but i think this is like the first time we were like oh this is like bad And now we're like 20 something years later.

47:20And, you know, it just just knife dancing, you know, just collectively knife dancing. There's definitely the sense that we've reached sort of a state in like the media industry and the entertainment industry where like sociopathy is an adaptive trait or like that is like more and more the case or something. Totally. It's even promoting this book. Like I've had to be like, I hate it. Like, you know what I mean? It's like posting on Instagram like twice a day. Like, fuck off. Like, you know what I mean? but like that's what you have to do like i i mean like i'm like i get it like you don't have to like theoretically like yeah like who are my favorite artists i'm like i don't know i used to love mad lib and burial like i love thomas bingen but like fucking la-di-da thomas bingen not there's never gonna be another thomas bingen again i can tell you that much and like elena ferrante congratulations like i wish i was an anonymous neapolitan writer but i'm not yeah we have to just like fucking self soap all the time we have been terraformed by these like brands and these social media companies and forced into these little like marching fucking posting monsters and it's just degrading but like i don't know what alternative is you know it's like like capitalist realism is there no alternative it's like i guess not like i don't really know what the answer is just like with ai like i'm like pretty terrified of that i don't need to tell you you guys are very deep in this world but it's uh i don't know i hope someone has some fucking answers and like this book wasn't necessarily my answer at the end of the book was, you know, I wanted to have an answer.

48:45And I was like, the character like wants to dive into like what's left of the underground and try to build something new, which is like, in my own mind, what I attempted to do and like try to be like a decent journalist as best as I could. But to me, like the notion of an internet underground is so uninspiring to me. Like, I think the answers are the same old ones, right? Where it's like physical community and like solidarity and like building organizations that somehow survive. But Again, going back to the algorithms, they prioritize conflict. They prioritize cheap slogans and dim propaganda.

49:17And no matter what side you're on, the algorithm does not favor the thing that journalism used to do best, which was provide nuance. Yeah, a thing I've said a few times on the show before is we live in a moment where the algorithm has really just conditioned us to know so deeply what we don't like and to lean into that and push for that to the point where we're completely disenfranchised around being able to identify, let alone advocate for what we do like and what we do want. We just know what we don't want. And it's like that rule of writing, like it's more effective to say what something is and what something isn't.

49:53And so we're always going to be impaired and disempowered that way.

50:09to kind of put a coda on this part of the conversation i just want to read a quote from one part of the book and this follows and what we were just talking about with the relationship between today's internet journalism and what you experienced back then and what the character experienced and you write that this comes you know after you detail this particularly brutal skirmish that Brittany has with the paparazzi. The famous incident where she puts her baby on her lap while driving, which she received endless public hate for after the paparazzi captured a photo of that. And again, the context is that they kind of forced her into that situation, essentially just chasing her out of a Starbucks to the point where she didn't even have time to strap her child in.

50:47And your character is kind of reflecting on what just happened and you write, or he says, you might think we witnessed something inhuman, but it's just humanity unleashed on a world where all the guardrails are actively being dismantled. A food chain where everyone happily consumes the product, but no one wants to take a visit to the abattoir that hides it. You know, this actually feels pretty salient to a lot of, I think, what we're witnessing in media today. You know, everything from what Emily just mentioned about Zoran to anything in the political realm. And I'm wondering, do you think that what you capture there at that moment has just shifted from pop culture to politics?

51:25You know, we're talking about how it doesn't seem to exist as much in pop culture anymore, because it's all kind of controlled by the pop stars. Now they can set up their own photo ops, they have their own Instagram accounts, blah, blah, blah. But yeah, do you think there's just been this transference from pop culture to politics? And do you think that that era maybe laid the groundwork for what we're seeing today? yeah I definitely do and that like of course that's what I was alluding to when I was writing that you know it was like sort of a prelude to where we are now I also think that like our politics they followed pop culture you know it's usually like everyone's like politics moves downstream from pop culture and like to some degree that's like probably still true I mean of course it does like we elected a reality tv show star and like even Zoran like I'm like no matter what you think of him like he's a very telegenic instagram ready personality like that guy used to want he tried to be a rapper.

52:12You know, I mean, it's the same type of personality that like wants to be a politician. Now it's like, I don't see that much of a difference. And it's like, not good. I don't think writers should have to be TV personalities. I don't think journalists should have to be podcasters. I mean, it's great that you guys are and you guys do an amazing job. But like, that shouldn't be a prerequisite, right? I think about this, of course, like in relation to myself, because that's like the thing I have to think about by necessity. But I don't want to do anything like I want to just like write books in the forest.

52:38but I don't have that luxury anymore because journalism doesn't exist really. And literature doesn't really exist, even though like, I mean, like it's great that people care about my book and like eight people reviewed it, but like what is going to move the needle more? I don't know. Probably Addison Rae put it on a fucking TikTok. That's what would move the needle. Like we're so far removed from the reality. And like everyone has to do 75 things and like you're lucky to do four of them well. And I would argue you're lucky to do one thing well. and like now we're in a reality where it's like the one thing I want to do is write and now I have to do everything else to get to the point where I can make enough money where I can actually write the thing to not make any money because like writing doesn't make any money and like I got into the economics of this book like we all start like weeping so I'm not rich off this book unfortunately I wish I was I'd be flexing but maybe you know maybe I'll get it adapted into a Hulu miniseries and they can have me do a guest appearance where I'm like a paparazzi in the background.

53:32I went to see Jurassic Park this weekend and every single trailer was for like a remake or a sequel. And I was like, wow, that's incredible. But at least your book is original IP. It does have the like pre visibility of Britney Spears. So you have that going for you? Yeah, I kind of got lucky. I think in this respect, I had came up with this idea like 20 years ago. I didn't know what it had late. I didn't know that she was going to have her breakdown the way that she had the breakdown or whatever. I didn't know that she had the conservatorship did not never but I had the title and I had the idea of a tabloid reporter and did I know it was going to completely center on Britney Spears no but I did see her even then as a symbol and a metaphor for something deeper about ourselves but yeah it's weird if it wasn't called waiting for Britney Spears would people care probably not honestly maybe they would because like the 10 ,000 people that like my writing but like would I be on like WGN or something like no of course not like that's ridiculous.

54:26And that is sad. But that is like how the human brain works. And like, that's how we become conditioned even more. It's all like flashing lights now not to quote the Kanye thing. We've shifted from this like literate society to a completely post literate one, which isn't such a novel conceit to say and everything is now like streaming video. There was an article in New York Magazine this morning about how like New York Times is trying to make all the journalists video stars. And again, like I have a podcast that is on video. So I'm completely of the mindset of that's reality and you have to move to reality but it's certainly not the world which i think any of us would have chosen and we certainly wouldn't have done this profession because like again i thought the coolest thing in the world was just like putting out a book maybe doing a few interviews in print or something and then just shutting the fuck up for four more years and kind of having an element of mystery and and like what have we lost about this world we've lost like mystery and mystique and those are very uh precious commodities we've lost a sense of enchantment.

55:22Yeah, exactly. So Jeff, you've been deliberately coy on this press cycle about divulging, you know, how much of the book is based on your real experience and how much is it kind of fine-tuned fantasy. But you've chosen to do that even when it might mean not necessarily casting yourself then in the most, shall we say, ethically formidable light. Why are you hesitant to reveal what's which? Well, I think it cheapens it. I think like the whole point of the book is like it's supposed to be like, you know, like a pop song or a magic spell or something where you're like, what the fuck is this? Like, where did this come from?

55:53Like kind of like a dispatch from like an alien society that once existed, maybe in some kind of close form to this, but no longer exists now. And I mean, definitely when I was writing it, I was like, people are gonna really think that I'm like a terror, you know what I think? But I thought that was important, like for the the literary element of it, where it's like, the character does have to wrestle with his own morality and kind of like grapple with like what he's doing. And I think that is important for anybody in general to call bullshit on yourself and not allow yourself to kind of believe these lies that you're trying to tell yourself in order to feel like a sense of being exculpated from all this.

56:24But in terms of what I wanted to fictionalize and what I didn't, I did get caught on like Brad Pitt's property. And like, you know, it's like my 50 cent getting shot nine times moment. You know, it's like also like Draco had a line where he was like, it might sound real, but it's fictional. And so much of it was like, what in his raps was true and what wasn't. And like, we're so comfortable with that with rappers, but we're so uncomfortable with it with writers, you know, and like, I don't think we should because rappers are writers, like first and foremost, I mean, they're musicians, but like the good ones are really also like amazing writers too.

56:54And like, I always see rappers as like being like the first ones to see reality before the rest of the world sees it. Or in this case, probably post reality before the rest of the world sees it. Rap being such a postmodern art form, right, where it's like, not only is it based upon like kind of the fossil fuel of great samples from the past it's also based on like our own like collective myths and this artificial blurring of the line between the self and the projected reality of it as it appears on record and they've always been doing that right i wanted to have like known and have people know that i in fact did live my raps but i didn't think it was important to kind of like people never ask a rapper did you really know your hitman since high school you know which is a draco line i don't even think draco had him i don't know i don't want to know I never you know what I mean like and that to me is sort of I think what I took from like having covered rap for this long I don't even know if I knew like understood this necessarily consciously when I started to write the book but I think definitely like on an unconscious level I'd supplemented all these ideas and kind of because you do write to figure out what you actually think and a lot of the times you write to figure out what you don't even know that you think and the unconscious is so much of a text in it not to get too like deconstructionist or whatever.

58:01But yeah, that definitely was important to me to kind of blur those lines. So then without giving away what's fiction and what's real, what did inform your choices, Jeff, about what to fictionalize and how to do it? Was it more practical, like filling in the gaps of things you didn't maybe experience yourself or, you know, writing around legal gray areas? Or was it more creative and intentional than that? I think there was a certain pragmatic element of it where you like the character has to do this to get to this point. You know what I mean? Like not everything is going to necessarily comport to like how you actually lived your life.

58:32In terms of the legal element of it, actually, the lawyer was pretty like, it was pretty funny. Like he was like, we had our conversation and there were very few things that were actually changed because it's like, I know what's libel and what in defamation, what isn't. And you know, the lawyer was like, yeah, it's like kind of like Gonzo, right? I'm like, yeah, you get it. But definitely, like I said, like, I wanted to make the Britney stuff as true as I could. And like, I had a conversation with a friend between drafts, where I was like about to write what mostly became the final draft and this was like a critique that someone gave of the book which i thought was like an unfair critique because they're like the stakes weren't high enough of the main character and i'm like well like a the stakes were pretty high because he like did like get caught on brad pitt's property and like he was nationally humiliated so i'd say like yeah that's like kind of like some kind of stake for sure like to get nationally canceled before cancellation exists i think was something and like to kind of almost like lose his life to this like paparazzi nether world i think is a stake but i thought there was also a way in which you kind of once upon a time in Hollywood it right where you kind of like you change the accepted facts of the narrative and that's what by the way that's what Norman Mailer kind of did in his Marilyn Monroe book which I didn't really care for but he kind of like melded fact and fantasy but I didn't like that idea honestly I thought that was cheap and I thought like then it was like and then my character was there inside the house of like Brittany at the end and tries to say no don't you know what I mean it's like it would have felt so corny and stupid to me and like then that does give your character stakes, but at what cost, it then breaks the spell of what is real and what isn't real.

59:56Because like the books that I like, always feel like real. And that's not to say I don't like like fantasy books. Like I love Invisible Cities by Calvino is like one of my favorite books ever. But for me, at least what I'm writing in terms of this book, like I'm gonna have a talking cat book traveling through time that does not feel real. But I think like every book has to have its own rules, right? That's what what makes a good book versus a bad book, right? Like does this make sense within the rules that you've established for it? And the rules that I'd established for this book were, you know, tabloid reporter, like young, kind of caught up in the morality of it, like basically getting shuttled through this world trying to get out of it.

1:00:28But like, you know, just when he tries to get out, they pull him back in and Brittany with these accepted facts of her existence and the mystery inherent and trying to kind of like meld the two where it made sense as a as like a seamless whole. Fascinating. How do you account for a new generation of young people being sort of fascinated by this time, the aesthetics of this time, call it Y2K or slightly different, but indie sleeves or whatever. Is it just the usual stuff cycling back every 20 years sort of thing? Or are there aspects of that moment in culture that you think feel particularly resonant or refreshing in this moment?

1:01:06I think the answer is both. I think, of course, there is always that 20 year cycle, which you could set your watch to and it never fails. But also, there's the fact that this is the area before social media. And I feel so bad for people that didn't grow up with it, because we now live in a society where everything feels performative and nothing kind of feels real. And like, is it? And like, I think about that all the time. It's like, whatever I post, it's like, it's not really me. It is the shadow. And we live in a world where the shadow has become the substance instead of the other way around.

1:01:34Right. And there's always like been that case where like, you know, you have to sell the shadow to support the substance. But now the shadow has total primacy. And I think young people are nostalgic for a world which maybe didn't exist in the way that they kind of now see it refracting back at them, but it certainly doesn't exist in any meaningful fashion. Now, people have described the book as nostalgic. And I'm like, No, it's certainly not nostalgic. I think this era was I hated at the time I hate it now. Not to say it didn't have any charming moments of it that I enjoy. And of course, I do think the world has gotten in most respects worse, although I think you could point to the kind of the misogyny and kind of the toxicity of like men at this time have gotten a little bit better collectively, you know, not to say in individual case, it hasn't but like, we don't stand for the bullshit anymore that we definitely stood for at the time.

1:02:16And I think you can chart that, which is great. But the other thing I would say is I'm very sentimental. And I think I'm sentimental. And I would probably argue like romantic and the kind of like old school sense of the word, like where it's like a world in which you didn't necessarily have to kind of be this performative creature, you didn't have to worry about your outfit, because I mean, obviously, you did to get into a club. But like, when you stepped outside the house, like you were just a normal person, like, you know, I mean, like, you weren't in danger of being filmed somewhere or going to a show and having to show it and like seeing the world like as mediated through a screen.

1:02:46And, you know, this world is sort of the moment when the shift happens. And hopefully that idea is conveyed. We've discussed how in this book, we at least in the beginning and have it a world that is much more, you know, as I said, IRL centric than digital. Do you feel like this book has some nostalgia, if not for the era, then for that era in media, words and all? I mean I'm happy that Joe Francis is gone that guy was like a real like monster like that that type of I mean Dove Charney still doing his LA apparel thing but like that was kind of I always found kind of like lame and tacky and gross but like I mean I was saying it's like I'm sentimental for it I'm not nostalgic for it I think like it was like a gross awful lurid nightmare you know what I mean these clubs were the worst places to be in the world the music largely sucked that you'd hear out you know I guess it got worse with Drake in some ways, but I'm like, yeah, Crunk was kind of fun for a moment.

1:03:42But I don't know. It was kind of a nightmare era. I think actually I'm nostalgic for like the era of like 2012 to 2015. That like to me seemed like the moment where like you asked about the media, like the media was a horrible place to be in between like 03 and 08. Like there was no internet media that had supplanted print media. It just was like constant layoffs. And then like people still hadn't even figured out how to start a blog. But like, I think I'm nostalgic for like 2012 to 2015, because it seemed like we were living now in retrospect in a bubble where like these companies were being valued at insane rates, well more than they actually were.

1:04:14And there was this boom where you could get paid pretty well to do pretty cool stuff. And like there were jobs and people were hiring and the music was good. And like, it seemed like social media was there if you needed it, but it wasn't like the only way to promote things, you know, and the structures had shifted to the digital world well enough, but not where the algorithm was driving every single thing and deflating every single thing if it didn't, you know, meet its right criteria. So yeah, I'm not a praying person. But like, I do pray that things do get to a better cycle. It has felt particularly bleak, though, for a long time.

1:04:49Like, I want to say the last decade has felt like a constant series of L's. Like, you're always trying to like, be like, what the fuck happened? Like, you know what I mean? Like, I feel like we're on to something new before you even understand what the old thing was. And then with AI coming in, you're like, get this the fuck away from me. Like, I don't know. I read those like chat GPT articles about like the college New York magazine story. And I'm like, that feels very real and accurately reported. And I've never been more scared of anything in my life. Post literate society. Yeah. I just people need to read.

1:05:18I mean, there's been like a bunch of articles about how reading teaches you empathy. But like, yeah, it does. Like it actually does. Like, I think that if you were wanting to teach about like gay rights and the struggle for liberation and like empathy for trans people would i weave a flag nothing against waving a flag i'm not being negative to that but i would tell you to read john resci's city of night because all the things were written about this in 1963 with like such tenderness and love and beauty and empathy that are so much more powerful than any kind of slogan that you can say and people don't read those things anymore so like they are just reduced to doing what they believe which is fine i assume most people are just trying to do their best because it's a fucking brutal and unyielding world but like I do think reading and I would hope you know obviously very very different but I would hope in this element you know I've been on like a bunch of things where people feel guilt and I'm like you should read the book and I think we're all kind of complicit and I hope the book would have a sense of empathy for everybody involved with maybe the exception of like Justin Timberlake who deserves no empathy and sympathy because he you know fuck him but you know on that note thank you for coming on the show and also if somebody wants to read your book especially someone who wants to get back into reading, your book could be a good gateway for that.

1:06:30Very, very, I don't want to say easy read because it sounds derogatory. It's just being a smart beat. It's absorbing. Very absorbing, enjoyable read. If you haven't just gotten absorbed in a book for a while, this will make you rediscover that. Yeah. Like I said, I wanted to write a pop song and it's like, I don't know, like some pop songs are really great. You know what I mean? And like, hopefully some kind of profundity in it. But they're like, at the end of the day, it's like, what am I going to write? like a bunch of metaphysical essays about Britney Spears. It's like, no, write the fucking form, need to match form.

1:06:59Yes, the noir. Where can people find the book? I would say call your local independent bookstore because like they probably need the support. But if not, there's like a Macmillan link that is like, it's my pin tweet on twitter.com. I'm not calling it the new thing. And yeah, I'm at Passion Weiss on all socials and Passion Weiss website. You can find it in this episode description too and on our sub stack. And also, if you are in Philadelphia or want to drive to Philadelphia, The Culture Journalist is actually putting on its first ever book reading at the Neon Clown Dream Lounge in Fishtown. I believe it is above Kung Fu Necktie.

1:07:37We are co-presenting it with Lot 49 Books, and there will be a live conversation between Jeff here, Drew Millard, and Sadi Dupuis, and a Britney-slash-early-2000s-inspired DJ set and dance party at the end by Domino Dancing, aka my friend Wesley Bunch. It is on Tuesday, July 29th at 7 p.m. Free, free of charge. All right. Thanks, Jeff. Well, thank you so much, Rox. Appreciate it.

1:08:17This episode of The Culture Journalist was produced and edited by Emily Friedlander and me, Andrea Dominick. Our theme music is by Mark Donica. To check out more, head to our sub stack. That's theculturejournalist.substack.com And if you like what you're hearing, leave a rating or review on Apple Podcasts or share us with friends to help support independent journalism.