Are You a Preacher, Prosecutor, Scientist, or Politician?

24:12Brené Brown:I want to read this paragraph on this model, this framework that kills me, about how and why we slip into these mindsets. I think it's really powerful. I come back to it. I have to tell you, Adam, all the time. In a like, damn you, Adam, kind of way. But so we slip into the mindsets of three different professions, preachers, prosecutors, and politicians. In each of these modes, we take on a particular identity and use a distinct set of tools. We go into preacher mode when our sacred beliefs are in jeopardy. We deliver sermons to protect and promote our ideals. Prosecutor mode when we recognize flaws in other people's reasoning.

24:56Brené Brown:We marshal arguments to prove them wrong and win our case. Politician mode when we're seeking to win over an audience. We campaign and lobby for the approval of constituents. The risk is, this is the line, the risk is that we become so wrapped up in preaching that we're right. prosecuting others who are wrong and politicking for support, that we don't rethink or think about our own views. And I would argue here that you write, we do so much of this that we don't bother to rethink our own views. I would argue, I would make a slight edit to this line and say that we don't even can think about our own views, much less rethink them.

25:43Brené Brown:sometimes I can do you think law do you think polling people is part of politicking like what do you think I should do what do you think I should do is that part of politicking sometimes I think I think it depends on the motives okay why you're doing oh that's interesting that's interesting the same the same way that changing your mind is learning but yeah changing your position is flip-flopping I think oh polling people polling people if you're just adding them up and trying to go with the favored option, that's politicking. Polling people and saying, you know what? I don't know that I'm thinking about this in the right way, or I don't know that I've considered all the information and I want to take that in to pressure test my hypothesis.

26:27That is not politicking. That's thinking more like a scientist.

26:33But, you know, as you read this to me, I'm like, okay, so are you asking me to rethink think again? because it would be ironic if I weren't willing to.

26:41Brené Brown:Am I asking you to rethink think again? You did. You actually made me rethink something in it when we were talking about these ideas, which is I think sometimes, you actually made me rethink two things, three things, three things. We could talk about all of them. But the first one is sometimes I'm too harsh on preaching, prosecuting, and politicking. And I forget to acknowledge there's a time and a place for those. preaching is marketing. We all need marketers in our lives. I think prosecuting is often how we prevent bad ideas from seeing the light of day. And I think politicking is sometimes necessary for getting a coalition to support something unproven.

27:29And I think you said, hey, wait a minute. Let's not just say we should always go into scientist mode. Let's make sure that people recognize there is value in having a skill in each of these areas.

27:43Brené Brown:I think that's true. I love prosecutors when I'm writing a book. They are my challenge network. They are the people who question arguments that aren't well supported and push me to make a stronger case. I need that. I don't think either of us could could have given a TED talk if we didn't learn a little bit from preachers about how to advance an idea and communicate it and make it worth spreading. And so, yeah, I'm curious because you're now, you approach this conversation from where I normally am, which is too much preaching, prosecuting, and politicking. How are you thinking about when those are useful modes and when they're not?

28:29So from a dare to lead kind of vulnerability perspective,

28:39Brené Brown:I don't think these are useful modes for me when they are armor for me. Oh, oh, say more. Armor against what? Anxiety? Uncertainty? Fear, vulnerability, uncertainty, perfectionism, not wanting to outsource my decisions so I don't have to take accountability or responsibility for them. um you know i have this contract with my um my stylist who does my hair who who's basically it says i understand that caitlin will never give me a perm no matter how much i want one and how much i'm stuck in the 80s i will never ask for micro bangs even if things are really hard like this is the contract i have with her but one of the things that i find myself doing is i can poll people about what they think I should do or where to an event, my close friends, or how to handle an issue when I know damn well what to do.

29:44Brené Brown:But I don't want to take responsibility for it because it's going to have some consequences that are tough. And I'd like to outsource the decision-making and I'd like to spread evenly the consequences of the decision-making over many people. Um, so for me, I can use these, I can use all of these, including scientists as armor. Yeah. Yeah. And so the distinction then comes down to something very similar to where we landed with shame, which is these, if you're going to use any of these modes of thinking and communicating, they should be aligned with your values, not just your current emotional state.

30:32Brené Brown:That's it. And I think again, which seems to be the theme of all of our podcasts, self-awareness is hugely important. What am I doing? What's driving it? And how is it serving or not serving. Yeah. You know? Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, it's interesting as you talk about armor, I think that I never realized it until now, but prosecutor mode is armor for me. Really? Because it's costly. I think it's costly to give up on things that you believe, especially if you've based life choices on them. I'm thinking about Robert Abelson having written that we start to treat our beliefs like possessions over time.

31:25Brené Brown:Oh God, yes. Yes. We display them on mantles. Hoard and protect. Yeah, exactly. And I think once you get invested in an opinion, and turn it into a belief, it becomes a way of life. And so sometimes I find myself just leaping into prosecutor mode because it's easier to not have to give up a cherished possession. I believed for the longest time that hard work was the key to success. And I organized my life that way. And when people argued that luck and opportunity mattered more than I thought, I was like, no, no, no, no. I want to live in a world in which the harder I work, the more luck I have.

32:15And I've kind of created that world around me and I don't realize all the ways I've been lucky. And it took way longer than it should have for me to abandon that belief because it was so easy to prosecute it and find so many examples in the world and so much evidence. And it's like, okay, just because hard work increases the probability of success doesn't mean that it guarantees success. Why was I not willing to recognize that? Why did I have to prosecute that for so long? Because it had become part of my identity. I think this is the scariest thing we do when we use these mindsets as armor, is we turn our opinions into beliefs and we turn our beliefs into our identities.

32:53And all of a sudden, who I am is what I think, when in fact, who I am should be what I value.

33:00Brené Brown:That's hard in this world. Increasingly hard. Increasingly hard. And this is another thing. So this is the second thing that you have changed my mind about. I normally leap from, there are three steps in order to help people change. Step one is you open them up to a new possibility. Step two is you help them overcome the barriers to realizing that possibility. And then step three is you build a habit around it or a practice around it. And one of the things you made me realize, Renee, we haven't talked about this, is I normally just skip right from step one to step three. We do this thing. It's wrong.

33:46Therefore, we should do the other thing. And you always want to pause and say, why aren't we? What's the barrier? Why is this hard?

33:54Brené Brown:that's really funny because yesterday on slack there was a slack that said we have we're going to have it we we'd like to introduce a new way of doing something with um social approvals or something and i said really appreciate the time and thought put it into this happy to look at a new process can i ask what problem we're trying to solve and so and then you know our colleague I appreciate it. Yeah, with a very clear, like, here's what we're trying to do. Because I promise you that this is built inside of me from reading the inner game of tennis for decades. Reading it every year for decades.

34:38Brené Brown:And that whole idea that performance equals potential minus interference. And spending as much time on identifying and getting rid of interference as building potential has really... And I think it's also my love affair with systems theory and not changing the problems we can see, but understanding the mental models, because it's a very different way of saying what you're saying. I become a prosecutor, especially, and a preacher, especially, when you are introducing, not you, but someone is introducing or threatening my mental models. and my mental models are not what I value, but how I make sense of the world and how I make sense of the value that I, that I contribute.

35:25And so, and I think you and I ran into this

35:29Brené Brown:very much when we were, you know, starting to build a podcast that I had really serious mental models around. This is the way it needs to look because this is the way I've always done it. And, And you had a lot of, you must have learned this from me before you used it against me because you were like, for us, not against you. Oh yeah, for us. Yes, sir. Yes, yes, Father Grant. You said, you know, what is it you're not willing to let go of? Like why, you know, and so I think to me, this is fundamentally, this framework is fundamentally the work I want to do over the next couple of years. I want to, in this season of my life, I need to understand how I test my hypotheses and, you know, help people understand that.

36:25Brené Brown:And hopefully we can find some happy shared ground. But I also, I want to stop prosecuting and preaching. I saw this quote on Instagram the other day that said, I don't fight anymore. I don't argue. Two plus three equals six. Good for you, man. If that's what you think, have a great day. I want a little bit more of that because for me, what drives me going into preacher mode and prosecutor mode is attaching morality to issues. yeah yeah you are uh you are a you're a fast moralizer i am i'm like you know if you believe two plus three equals six then you have no value for this and that and then there's going to be this outbreak of this you know like this disease this is i'm getting you from your belief to you're killing all of us in three sentences

37:23which is which is so funny because i have a i have a more i have a narrower version of that problem like when when somebody believes something that i i have strong conviction is false i think it's my job to rescue them from that that incorrect belief you do you do think that you do think it's public service it is public service i'm like if i can just help you see that astrology is bunk and the earth is not flat, your life will be so much better. You will be less wrong. And you will. And what I don't think about is, wow, not only do you have to abandon a belief system that you've invested a lot in, but also you might lose your entire community who shares those beliefs.

38:10That's what's attached to identity is community. Yeah. And so it never occurs to me to say, hey, come on over here to the round earthers. There are a lot of interesting people and some new ideas that are going to help you. Or, hey, I think the purpose of astrology is for you, part religion and part psychology. You're looking for a cosmology, a larger order to things. And you're also trying to make sense of all the messiness and complexity of human beings. Guess what? There are great religious communities. Maybe that's not your cup of tea. I also happen to belong to a community of really great psychologists who can teach you a little bit about the frameworks that we use to understand the differences between people and what we respond to when we experience other people as aligned or not aligned with us.

39:03And there's actually a place where you can belong and find meaning and connection. I never have that conversation with people. I think I should.

39:15Brené Brown:Yeah, I think identity is tied directly to belonging and community. And I think those are the big losses that people are experiencing now over and over and over as more groups turn to ideology and prosecuting and preaching and politicking and are very fast to cut anyone from those groups that introduces any idea of critical thinking. So people are not just, these are not just modes of being. These are survival and belonging and community and family. This is like the not invited to the Thanksgiving dinner kind of bullshit right here. And as a Scorpio, I'm so concerned about your disbelief of astrology because - Don't even get me started.

40:05I only believe it when the news is good for the day.

40:11Brené Brown:And something's happening where Taurus is moving out of something, so it's supposed to be the end of April 25th. It's supposed to be the end of hard things or something for Scorpios. So I am for it right now. Okay, Brene, confirmation bias, Brown.

40:29I see you. I raise you. In a Shakespearean sense, I am hoisting you with your own petard.

40:36Brené Brown:Okay. Well, here's this in a Brene Brown sense, which I'm no competition for the bard. But if the psychologists want to move more people over from astrology to psychology, you're going to need better graphics because the graphics and yeah, everything's prettier in astrology. Better graphics. We also need better language. Calling people neurotic and disagreeable is not going to bring them on board. Yeah, and you need to democratize and make more accessible the work. Because I think, I don't know. That's what I do. Yeah, you do do that. But not enough. There's no necklace I can get with the cute scorpion thing on it.

41:20Brené Brown:And that's what I'm for. Yeah, and I don't want you to wear a necklace because then that identity has become a literal possession, not just a figurative one. I want you to try it on. What about my longhorn? Oh, you're allowed to have a sports team identity. A university identity. Absolutely. But that's different, right? That's not locking yourself into a belief. That's an affiliation. Interesting. I think we should treat our opinions - I'll just ask you, what sign are you? I can't answer that question. I don't believe in signs. Come on, just come on. Nope. Nope. When's your birthday? Can't do it.

41:57Can't do it. I can't. I cannot. I cannot dignify this with a response.

42:02Brené Brown:Really? Signs are fictions. Yeah. I mean, I wrote a sub stack about this a couple of years ago called, we need to talk about astrology because I was so tired of having the conversation. But one thing I did not include in it is you're not even the sign you think you are because the charts were drawn 2000 years ago. And the position of, the positions of the planets have changed. And so most people, I think if I remember correctly, most people are off by a month from what they think their sign is. This explains so much. It explains nothing, nothing at all. But here's the thing, Brunei. God, you're so easy.

42:47Brené Brown:It's not even fun anymore. I know, you're just, just take the bait so quickly.

42:54here's here's i think the important the important point actually i think i've never really thought about this before but i think we should treat our beliefs as provisional i think the more that our thoughts are like hunches or tentative opinions the easier it is to treat them as hypotheses and then run the little experiments to find out during the bounce or you know during the analysis however you do it, what might be the values aligned choice? And I think we're just too eager to say, well, this is what I believe. And I'm going to shout it from the rooftops. I'm going to post it all over my social media and everybody's going to know what I stand for.

43:32And the moment you put that out there, you are trapping yourself in a prison of your own making because you have made a public commitment to now adhering to that belief. And of course, if we lived in a world that made it easier to admit that we were wrong and treated that as a sign of growth, as opposed to a mark of stupidity or ignorance, that would be less of a problem. But I don't think we live in that world yet. I think you and I both have micro communities of people who actually dole out respect when somebody admits they were wrong, right? For sure. We just did an episode where you said, I was totally wrong about humiliation.

44:14Yeah. And I was shocked at first. And then I thought, wow, that's a mark of a real scholar. Brene not only changed her mind, she put it out there and said she got it wrong. But most people lose status for admitting that or they fear they'll lose status for admitting that. And so they don't. And I want to know how we can build a world where it's easier for people to say, you know what, I preached this idea last year. You know what, I've realized I was missing something important. I prosecuted you. and I have actually become aware that I might not have been correct there. And for people to say, wow, you've evolved, thank you, as opposed to, you are inconsistent, you're a hypocrite, I no longer respect you.

45:01Brené Brown:So treat beliefs as what? We treat beliefs as potential hypotheses? Yeah, hunches. This is how I got clear on God. did not expect you to go there no this is i i i i think i just that's a big hunch no i was i was raised with the belief that all this is true like i was because you know raised in the church catholic church this is all true and then when i got into my 20s i decided i i'm not going to completely prosecute the idea nor am i going to believe it fully i'm just going to treat it as a hunch and spend a couple of decades testing it. Turns out for me, it's true. Yeah. But I did challenge it from every corner for me, and it's a personal thing, but it rattled my faith in church and doubled down my faith in God.

46:01Brené Brown:So that was an interesting experiment, which, um, yeah. So I think the application is really broad and I will say, I have to give you kudos. You're a rethinking. You, you really, you really walk your talk. Um, it's been wild to watch you change your mind, um, to rethink things and I respect it. I do. I just respect it. I think if we do, everyone gives lip service to always being curious and curiosity and learning, curiosity and learning. And if you're really committed to that, you have to be equally committed to rethinking and realizing your hypothesis was wrong. If you're allowing for new data.

46:47Brené Brown:Yeah. That's, I mean, some people call it changing your mind. I think of it as growing, but I also think, you know, just because I am willing and able to think again, doesn't mean I always do it at the right time or in the right direction. And one of the things I've noticed over the last few years, and I've gotten some really good feedback about this is sometimes my standard of proof is too high. So somebody brings me a suggestion or an idea or a concern. I'm like, show me the airtight evidence or the bulletproof logic. And if not, I'm good where I am. You've not met my level of - Your threshold.

47:32Yeah, exactly. And what that means is sometimes I'm too reluctant to try something unproven. And so I need to be quicker to say, you know what? I don't have to change my mind yet. I just have to recognize the possibility that there might be a better way. And like, let's run the pilot.

47:49Brené Brown:And inhabit your hypothesis like me. Yeah, let's bounce around a little bit. Yeah, let's bounce. The bounce is super helpful. Do the trial. Yeah, I like that a lot. Now, okay, this actually is a good segue to the third thing that I think you've pushed me to rethink. on this, which is, I know if you remember this, we were at a conference in Europe last year and you asked me, you asked me about a missing mental model from the framework. I do remember this. So teacher you should. Yeah. Teacher. At first I was like, yeah, that's cute. It rhymes with preacher. Good job, Renee. And then I thought about it and I realized, Yeah.

48:36When I think about my identity, my professional identity, and particularly the work that I do that's public facing, that lives in the center of the Venn diagram of scientist and teacher. Scientist and teacher or preacher? Scientist and teacher. Because -

48:54Brené Brown:Oh, that's your - Oh, yes, yes. Yeah. And so I realized, I think there is something missing because if we think about explaining ideas or translating ideas or synthesizing knowledge, to move from scientist to preacher mode means you're going to oversimplify ideas in a way that's inaccurate at best and dangerous at worst. 100%. you're going to talk about, you're basically going to be offering, you're serving up the best thing since sliced bread. You only talk about the upsides of your pet idea. You don't admit any of the downsides. In teacher mode, you can say, hey, here's something I learned and here's how it's complicated.

49:38But I think the pros outweigh the cons and here's why. And I want to share that with you and have a dialogue about it. and that has unlocked for me, I guess, a level of comfort in saying, yeah, we do this in the classroom all the time. We talk about messy research. We say this doesn't undermine the validity of it. There are limitations. The question is, do the strengths outweigh the limitations? And let's figure out how to weigh that. And I think that's part of what we ought to be doing more of. So I love this teacher idea. Where have you landed on it? How do you think about it fitting in. I mean, we are teachers, so.

50:17Brené Brown:Yeah. So, yeah. So I think, um, it's probably next to scientists how I wrestle with ideas the most because I don't, unlike prosecutor, unlike prosecutor, unlike politician and unlike, um, preacher, I can embrace the messiness as a teacher. is exactly what you said. Like, my job is discomfort. My job is to push people into a stretch that's going to leave stretch marks, you know, cognitive stretch marks. And so I think I'm at my best in the teacher. It's something I've yet to weaponize. And so I don't know. I actually thought about it more that I don't think it is a mode. I think it's an identity, which in order to remain sacred, cannot be subjected to the other modes, to the preacher.

51:20Brené Brown:I have to say scientist. That's good. That's very good. As I listened to you talk about it, I never thought about it this way before, but I think that teacher mode is what saves you from moralizing. A hundred percent. A hundred percent. And I think that works in part because your style of teaching is very Socratic. You are not a sage on the stage. When you teach, you think about how do I bring learners along with me? And you also think about what can I learn from my students? And that, that, that forces a level of openness that wouldn't exist otherwise. Yeah. I always feel like, I always feel like my students get ripped off because I learn so much more like I should be paying them because I always learn so much more than I teach um but yeah I think since I made this shift a couple months ago when I was really dealing with some hard stuff at work into thinking about these modes as my armor I've added them to my like even in my coaching we talk about them as armor um and so

52:30Brené Brown:it's how I self-protect. It's such a helpful lens. And, you know, I'm just thinking about how I use scientist mode as armor sometimes, which is not, I mostly think about the upsides of scientist mode. Covered a bunch of evidence and think again, that just randomly assigning leaders to learn to think like scientists, it improves their decisions because they're quicker to pivot away from bad ideas and test better ones. And being fast to admit they're wrong makes it easier to figure out how to get it right. And that seems like a good thing. But for me, scientist mode is armor to avoid having to build systems and processes that might constrain me and might limit my autonomy and might prevent me, I fear from thinking again, ironically.

53:23And I'm like, no, no, I like, I want to keep testing hypotheses. I don't want to get too attached to anything, but the reality is we can't, we can't do that all the time. And so I've, I've tried to reserve scientist mode for, I've got to really invest in that. And we talked about this when we were talking about strong ground, I think, you know, in decisions that are highly consequential and irreversible. That's when I have to go into scientist mode right away. And that's where it's necessary. But if you're dealing with a lower stakes or easier to undo decision, I'm less worried about, have we rigorously tested the hypothesis?

54:02Have we considered all alternatives? Have we run every experiment that we could? And I think I've frustrated you a little bit by doing this because I want to look at a hundred podcast titles at least before we decide we're excited about the curiosity shop. I want to AB test whether we should have the word the in the title or whether it should just be curiosity shop. I want to look at a million design options and try to figure out the right logo. And you fall in love with one, or maybe you bounce between a few different options and then you're good to go. Yeah. That's armor for me on unimportant decisions and it's learning on important ones.

54:40Brené Brown:It's a big, I mean, that's a big insight. I think, I think if everyone listening right now took a few minutes to think about, here are four ways of being. What's happening for me when I slip into these? And when and where are they strengths? And when or where are they like kind of the worst of me? Because I'm in fear. I think it's a really interesting exercise. I also think the styles are contagious. And I think it's why when someone starts politicking in a team meeting, you can see other people come out of a more productive mode and start doing the same thing. They're very – because armor can be contagious.

55:28Brené Brown:Perfectionism, different ways that we protect ourselves. I do want to – we're at time. But I – go, go, go, go, please. No, no. Just a really specific example of that that I see all the time. somebody checks in with you before a meeting or after a meeting. And all of a sudden you realize, well, I have to have the pre-meeting and post-meeting to have influence. And then what gets said in the meeting becomes meaningless. Because everybody's politicking by having the conversations behind closed doors and trying to lobby for what's going to serve them. Yeah, for sure. And that the contagion, it becomes systemic.

56:00Brené Brown:It's just like, oh, this is how we do business. And that shit is, we'll eat you alive. um you gave a great example on the last podcast of what show to see what um uh pluribus pluribus to see kind of to see invisible armies stuck in the worst version of yeah of the worst version of group think and group talk that i can imagine i'm going to share a tv show where i literally re-watched one i i've i've been I've binged all three seasons. It's one of the smartest shows I've ever seen. I love it. The Diplomat. Haven't seen it. Oh, my God, on Netflix. With Keri Russell. It's so, it's so, Allison Janney's in it now.

56:46Brené Brown:It's just, the cliffhanger from season one to two, I was like, wow, someone can write a cliffhanger. The cliffhanger between season two and three, I was like, this is the best, this may be the best cliffhanger I've seen in TV history. Whoa. And then, yeah. Strong claim. Yeah, no, it is, it is a big claim. Um, I had goosebumps. I rewatched it 20 times, just the ending. Cause it was so incredible, but I rewatched episode four in this last season with your model in front of me. And it's such an interesting, it's so interesting to watch. We have some of the West wing writers on it. Um, and so it's just smart.

57:26Brené Brown:It's fast. It's dialogue heavy. It's, it's intricate. It's just, but I really watched that show thinking, oh my God, they're politicking that they're just, oh God, this guy is such a preacher. He's in such preacher mode right now. Um, but I used it because you can watch them picking these modes up and putting them on and then peeling them off and putting the next one on. It's a, it, you should clip it when you teach. I'm going to teach this. I'm going to actually teach it in an MBA class. I want to teach your think again piece. And I'm going to use clips from that show to teach it. Wow. Okay. I'm moving it up in my queue.

58:06I have to finish Daredevil Born Again and Fringe, and then Diplomata will be next.

58:13Brené Brown:I haven't even heard of the other two shows. You don't watch Marvel or DC, do you? No, I'm not in that universe. Okay. Got it. That one won't help you. And Fringe is going back. It's post-alias and lost. Great bad robot. Sci-fi. We would have such a hard time finding shows to watch together. I think The Diplomat sounds like a good overlap in our tiny, tiny center ven. In our center ven, like political thrillers that are really smart. that and sports comedy drama, Ted Lasso. Oh, Ted Lasso. I almost wore my Richmond AFC yesterday. I have a sweatshirt. People are like, I've never heard of them. Like they're fictional, but they're great.

59:03All right.

59:03Brené Brown:I will see you next week. I am going to be mindful going into the week between this and our next recording to watch my mode of operation and be very clear when I'm, when I'm in collaborative decision-making with people, let them know I'm in the bounce. I think just making that explicit and even introducing people to the fact that there is a bounce is great. And I think my, I never had that concept before. And I think my takeaway is I need to do a little more bouncing. Let's do it. I like it. I'll be sitting in the front yard of whatever house we're looking at, smelling the grass, trying to see, can I see myself here?

59:42Brené Brown:All right. Thanks, Adam. Thank you. The Curiosity Shop is produced by Brene Brown Education and Research Group and Granted Productions. You can subscribe to The Curiosity Shop on YouTube or follow in your favorite podcast app. We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Discover more award-winning shows at podcast.voxmedia.com.