Brené and Adam on What They Will Never Agree On

21:10Worst that happens is she still hates me. And we don't talk. We already don't talk. She probably already hates me. And I was so surprised. I reached out to you and you said yes immediately. by email. You responded to an email.

21:23Brené Brown:I did respond to an email. I was very unlikely, Renee. And I remember you showing up and just,

21:32one, just imparting so much wisdom to the team and two, making it clear that you wanted to help even somebody you didn't like. Like, who does that?

21:45Brené Brown:Yeah, because I felt hypocritical because I think you probably that email caught me right in the middle of reading one of your books. And I think I was talking to my kids about your work, too, because I thought it was really helpful. And so I was just like, this is so this is just stupid. I don't know. I don't know what we're I mean, like like life is too hard at this point because we were in the middle of covid. Just stuff was hard. I thought it was really generous to reach out to me. I mean, it's interesting. The first time we did a Dare to Lead intervention was at the Gates Foundation. And we asked, that was the first place we asked this later, this group of leaders, this question.

22:21Brené Brown:And we've since asked over 10 ,000 leaders. And what is the thing that your direct reports do that build trust for you? Like, someone's reporting to you. What's the behavior they engage in? And everyone always thinks it's going to be reliability, like dependability or reliability. And the number one thing is always they ask for help. When someone who reports to me asks for help, my trust for them skyrockets. So I think when you asked for help, I kind of felt like this is, first of all, hypocritical internally. Does that make sense to me? He can't be the avatar for a general frustration I had because I am the avatar for so many people's frustration.

23:09and that's so unfair and hurtful.

23:13Brené Brown:And so I was like, this is a great opportunity. Wow. Yeah. But we've never talked about this. It's so weird. Well, okay. So a couple of things. One, you're reminding me of a classic paper by Jecker and Landy, 1965. Fact check that later. The paper is about liking a person as a function of doing a favor for them. And how when you are asked for help, when you help the person, And if you weren't forced or obligated to do it, you come away thinking, well, I must care about them or like them. Otherwise, why in the world was I doing this? God, that's interesting. Obviously, it did not cross my mind.

23:47I was just desperate to try to get through to this team when I reached out to you.

23:50Brené Brown:I have to tell you, that was a tough gig. It was definitely challenging. And it was a Hail Mary pass to you, which you kindly caught. Ran down the field and boom. Touchdown, Brené Brown. No, I didn't actually. I actually experienced that. I didn't care as much of the outcome of how impactful our conversation was. That was not my goal for the interaction. My goal for the interaction was more repair with you and connection and just kind of build something. Wow. Yeah, because it wasn't the first time I'd worked with that specific group of people, you know, or at least in individual capacity. And I knew it was going to be tough.

24:31Yeah. Well, then it was extra generous of you to take it on, given what you were walking into. But I think it's, I remember being unsure at the time. We talked probably for five minutes before we went on the virtual stage. And I wasn't sure if I should apologize and try to repair the relationship then or if just, it felt like there wasn't enough time. And I decided instead just to show my genuine appreciation for you being willing to do this and help them. And I think I'm curious now, if I had apologized then, would it have played out differently than just kind of getting to know each other on a different level through working a little together?

25:16Brené Brown:I think I was very hopeful that this would never come up again. You didn't want to talk about it? No, I didn't. I don't think I wanted to talk about it then. I was like, let's just lock in and help this team. Like this is like task mode. Yeah. I was in task mode. And I was also like, let's just move on. And I don't think we would have, I don't know that we would have, I don't know that it would have been helpful in that it's almost like me not remembering that I met you in the green room. Like when I go, I have my list of questions before I do something like you have your list of questions. My questions are what's a home run look like?

25:51Brené Brown:what's the greatest lift that I could do for you right now? If, you know, and sometimes someone will say, if you could make a connection between these two things, it'd be really helpful. If you could do this or this. And then sometimes I have to say, I actually don't believe that's true. So I won't be able to do that next. You do not actually want what you think you want. Yeah. I tell you what I think I could do. That might be more helpful. Exactly. And if that's what you need, Ooh, I'm not your right person. Like, yeah. So that's such an interesting Jerry McGuire moment. Like, help me help you.

26:19Brené Brown:Yeah, help me help you. And zero chance that I'm going to do your bidding for something. And yeah, it's not going to work like that. Marvel Television's Wonder Man. An eight episode series. Now streaming on Disney+. A superhero remake. Not exactly what we'd expect from an Oscar winning director. Action! Simon Williams audition for Wonder Man. I'm going to need you to sign this. Assuming you don't have superpowers. I'll never work again if anyone found out. My lips are sealed. Marvel Television's Wonder Man. All eight episodes now streaming only on Disney+. Okay, so you wanted to move forward. So I just wanted to move forward.

27:02Okay, that's helpful to know. I felt like it was an elephant in the room not talking about it. And I think our next interaction then was months later when you invited me onto your podcast, which was shocked when you did. And I think I probably just said, you know, I regretted the way that I, you know, I captured your work in that article. And I, you know, I don't think we aired it, but I just said, you know, I committed to making that right moving forward. And that was the way we haven't talked about it since.

27:35Brené Brown:I'm going to tell you one thing that I think is weird. It is weirdly surprising about you that I've learned in the last couple of months. I don't think I've ever been like, I think the shtick that people think about us who know us together or have been working on the podcast is like, I'm the emotions person. You're the data person. I'm the left brain. You're the right brain. Reverse. Yeah. Oh, wait, no. I'm the right brain. You left brain. Yeah. I'm qualitative. You're quantitative. You know, you're empirical evidence. I'm lived experience, you know, with, you know, empirical rising because that's just grounded theory.

28:15Brené Brown:But I will say one of the things I found really surprising is I don't think I've ever been across from someone that I have experienced taking more full accountability in a repair situation and issuing a more thoughtful apology than you. Thank you. That has been a very big learning for me about what I could do better. Really? Yeah. And so I think at the top of that podcast, we, we, I chose not to air it. They actually, they asked me like, wow, that was so beautiful. Do you want to put this, include this on the podcast? Cause we were already recording. Wow. Yeah. And I said, no, it was personal.

28:56Do you still have it?

28:58Brené Brown:I doubt it. I doubt it. I don't know. I don't, I don't know. Do we keep those things? I don't know. I don't know. I doubt it. No, I'm curious to listen to it and learn from it. Yeah, no, I think it was, well, you mean your own apology? Oh, I've got one in another one from you in writing, more recent. Very recent. That was extremely recent. Yeah. Which you have not responded to. Because we did it over the phone. I know, but I wanted to document it to make it really clear that I understood the mistake I made and I was going to correct it moving forward. And I also wanted you to have it to share with your team because I think I left them feeling a little devalued.

29:37Brené Brown:But you reached out to them individually and did that. But okay, well. And I didn't even know who was affected. Okay. Well, I just want to say that I think your repair and apology, Harriet Lerner, who I did this podcast with on apologizing, she's just one of the greatest mentors and teachers, would be like, damn, y 'all, this is a master class in repair and apology. Well, thank you. I appreciate that. Where does that come from? I think it comes from two places. I think I grew up in an environment where people didn't know how to repair. And I just, I don't know. So I don't know. Actually, I'm trying to make sense of this.

30:32I think the short version is, let me try this again. I think there's something about being a child of divorce that led me to say, I'm going to be the peacemaker. I'm going to make sure everyone always gets along. And somewhat I learned, one of my core values is kindness and generosity. and you can't always make sure that your behavior lands the way you want it to. And so if you don't get good at righting your wrongs, then you're going to have a lot of damaged relationships. And so I think that was in the background. I think I struggled early on. I really like being right. You know this about me.

31:14Brené Brown:Yeah. And admitting that I was wrong, it's really hard for me. And when I struggle with something like that, I feel like I have to overcorrect in order to build the skill that I'm trying to build. And so, actually, it's something I started practicing. Allison would give me a hard time because I didn't want to kind of admit that I was wrong in an argument. And then the next day, I would have to very sheepishly come to her and do my little happy Gilmore routine. Do you know this scene? No. Okay, so I'd come in and I'd be like, you were right. I was wrong. You're smart. I'm stupid. You're good looking.

32:00I'm not attractive. It's a scene right out of Happy Gilmore. We'd both start cracking up. And I had to do that a bunch of times to get used to saying you were right. I was wrong. And being okay with that. I can be a good person and admit that I did a bad thing. I can be a smart person still and admit that I got something wrong. I don't have to get an A plus on everything. That was a hard thing for me to learn. And once I learned it, I felt like this is something I have to get good at if I care about people and I care about relationships.

32:36You're not a therapist, but thank you for inviting me to your...

32:40Brené Brown:No, I am definitely not. Another thing people get wrong about me, for sure, I have a therapist, two, couples and individual. I'm just blown away by the application of your rigor, the same application of your rigor around organizational and behavioral science to becoming a better person. And I think I just had like a big learning, which happens every time we talk about hard things, I think, which is I – it's not hard for me to be wrong at all. Oh, I want to know more about how you got to that. Yeah, but I don't think I repair and apologize as well as you do because – like I'm going to get better at that.

33:32I'm going to work on that because it's an interesting experience.

33:39Brené Brown:I'm like, I am wrong. That's so great. Like I take a lot of, like, I take a lot of comfort in knowing that I'm comfortable being wrong. Like I like the fact, I like that about me. Like I can own stuff very quickly. But I think sometimes I don't look at the damage that being wrong did. Why not? Maybe because that's the feeling part of it that I don't like. And so I can definitely cognitively be like, oh, I was so wrong. You're right. But I apologize. But your repairs are very specific.

34:23Brené Brown:They feel they don't let you or me off the hook in terms of accepting them. You name very much. I apologize for this. I'm wondering if this left people feeling like this. That was not my intention. There was a gap between my intention and my impact. I see that. I apologize for it. I own it. I will course correct. I mean, I read the research on how to make amends and then. Yeah, I know. This is what I'm saying. This is what I'm saying. This is what I'm saying. Like, I just feel like everybody in the room, like master class and apologizing and repair. Everybody's like, wow. Yeah, it's impressive.

34:58Brené Brown:So thank you. Thank you for that. I think it's. Okay, so I want to go back to authenticity for a second. You said earlier, I was just thinking about this actually in the context of apologizing. I think when people put on armor, I think there are workplaces and families where people can't apologize because apologizing comes across as weakness. Exactly. For sure. My family. And yeah, go ahead. Yeah. And I just look at that and I think if you have wronged somebody or hurt someone or even done something that just had an impact that was different than what you meant, refusing to apologize is not a sign of strength.

35:42It's a sign of narcissism.

35:46Brené Brown:it's so interesting how we I think one thing we share in common is I do think about the data when I think about who I want to be like I do think about research when I think about yeah and so you do too obviously yeah I do I don't know that it's a form I don't know that I agree with the narcissism part I think that it can be shame to apologize because I think when you're raised in a shame bound family, that there's no difference between I did something wrong and I am wrong. I'm not, I'm a bad person. Not, I did a bad thing. So you never get the adaptive effects of guilt. You don't get the adaptive effects of, I am a good person who made a choice that was hurtful to other people.

36:44Brené Brown:I need to repair and make a different choice moving forward. You get a, I am not a good person. I am not worthy of love and belonging. So I think for a lot of people, which is interesting, in shame-bound families, I think what the research shows us is there are more disconnections and disruptions and ruptures and less apologizing for them. Wow. So I think, and I think in my family, again, fifth generation Texan, you know. Culture of honor. Culture of honor and shame. Yeah. Well, I think of shame as the flip side, right? As the flip side of honor. Yeah, yeah. It's actually not the flip side of honor.

37:22Brené Brown:Shame and honor live on the same side of the coin. Because they're both excessively image focused? Managing self-perception. Yeah. And duty over commitment. Wow. Yeah. I mean, I think in shame-bound families, there's a duty to not talk about certain things. There's a duty of, there's duty. And not, and duty is very different than commitment. Because duty is externally imposed and pressured. And commitment is internally chosen and intrinsic. Yes, exactly. And duty, the law, and in duty, if you make a mistake, it's not a failure of choice or behavior. It's a failure of your humanity. Wow. Yeah. Okay.

38:06So connect this back to authenticity now. You were saying earlier that we don't talk enough about the price people pay for having to not bring their true selves to work or to home.

38:19Brené Brown:Well, yeah, I think in part, I mean, I think there's a lot of interesting research on, you know, switching, code switching. I think there's a lot of really important work done in that area already. Yeah. But the price, unfortunately, is not just emotional and cognitive. The physical price of that kind of having to be different people all the time is so high. Well, I was thinking in particular about Patricia Hewlin's work on facades of conformity and how when you feel like you have to put on a mask in order to succeed professionally, you see then higher rates of burnout. You see people becoming alienated from themselves.

39:08You see extreme stress. I was starting to think that's what happens in shame-bound families, too. For sure. You go to Thanksgiving dinner and you're basically an actor. playing a role. And what toll does that take?

39:24Brené Brown:Yeah. I mean, it's, it's really, that's why I think I was going to try to pull up, let me pull up and see what the definition, let's see. Oh God, I'm scared to look at it. Y 'all. Um, I may not agree with my own definition anymore. Do you ever feel like that? Yes. And then, and then I think, wait a minute, this is a great learning opportunity because. Oh, do you? Yeah. I think about Danny Kahneman all the time who, who said to me when I realized I was wrong, it means I am now less wrong than I was before. I've learned something great. I like that. I think, oh shit. Um, that's what I think. Um, let's see.

40:05And we, we need to get to our, what, what, what does this look like if it goes wrong?

40:11Brené Brown:Yeah. Do we have time for that? Should we do that on the next episode? Yeah. Cause I really want to go through. So we are both big fans of, wait, don't do it now. Cause if we're going to do it in an episode too, let's do it. Okay. Um, I can't even find the definition, which is really, yeah. Um,

40:32Brené Brown:oh yeah, no, it's being what it's being one's true self and setting boundaries to protect one's true self. So like, I think it's, it's both the courage to be real, letting go of perfectionism. It's a daily practice. It's a, it's a collection of choices. So I think it's still what I think. You're rarely going to find me not having boundaries attached to some definition. I think that's so important. Yeah. But it's usually left out. It is. And I left it out. My mistake. But I think we do too sometimes in our own work. Well, I mean, it's, it's hard to communicate in shorthand, right? It is. Capturing all the nuanced in a few words is always a challenge.

41:13Brené Brown:But it's really interesting that you say that because we have a writer, like when we do podcasts that, why are you laughing already? Just keep going. Yeah. Um, that we have to approve all clips because right before I went off social media for almost a year, if I saw myself come up in a feed in my own feed, which is a nightmare, do you ever see yourself come up when you're scrolling and you're like, shit. Why am I there? Yeah, why am I there? But I think the thing I hated about it the most is how people were clipping me to seem so certain. And eliminating all the pauses and all of the complicating.

41:53All the complexity.

41:54Brené Brown:And they would ask me a question like, you know, does the Blue Jay call, you know, resemble the call of a Redbird? And I'd be like, it's a really good question. I'm not sure. in my experience, which is limited, they're very different. And then the answer would be like, does the blue jay and then they're very different. Like, and I was like, like, what about the part where I was like, I'm unsure, you know, like, I don't know. And then the part behind it that says, but I don't really, I'm not a birder. So you should really ask a birder. Like, and that's all added. Yeah. Sucks. That's why I just went off social media.

42:32Brené Brown:Cause I was like, Like, I don't even trust me in these things. The advice, first of all, I hate giving advice, but just what is a research show? What am I learning? What's worked in my life? I will share. But like, don't trust what's coming out of my mouth when it's been clipped like that. Okay, so no one should clip the curiosity shop out of context. No, I mean, I hope you don't, but I mean, you're going to. What do you do? I think you hope that people will engage with the long form and that the short form is it's a teaser. It's not the whole it's not the whole concept, not the whole idea. Yeah, it's not even the teaser.

43:12It's like a I don't know.

43:14Brené Brown:It's. Yeah, I mean, it's dessert, but don't skip the meal. Yeah, maybe. Or it's part, it's like, it's the plate that holds the ideas that you've clipped the plate, but not shared the real ideas that are on the plate. That's dumb. Yeah. But I also think we have a responsibility to take complex research and distill it in a way where people can, you know, in short time, take an idea and say, oh, I never thought about that. Let me now see if that leads to a change in my experience, my choices, my behaviors. I disagree. I'm all for that. Really? Yes. Well, I think we have the, I think we have a harder job, which is to communicate complexity through story and analogy and metaphor that makes it understandable without reducing its complexity.

44:13Oliver Wendell Holmes. You know, this is one of my favorite quotes, right? Okay. So Holmes said something to the effect of, he said, let me make sure I capture this right. He said something like, well, you can wait, no, fact check me after. Okay. The way I remember the quote is he said, for the simplicity on this side of complexity, I wouldn't give a fig, but for the simplicity on the other side of complexity, I would give anything.

44:41Brené Brown:I think that's exactly right. Here it is right here. What does it say? Okay. For the simplicity on this side of complexity, I wouldn't give you a fig. But for the simplicity on the other side of complexity, for that, I would give you anything I have. Pretty close. Okay. So. What does that mean? Well, I think about that as the difference. Wait, wait. For simplicity on this side of complexity. You're going to draw it, aren't you? No. I'm not thinking about that in my mind. The picture. But yeah. Well, I think that for me, the distinction there is there's a difference between ignorant simplicity and elegant simplicity.

45:17Brené Brown:Oh, yeah. Ignorant simplicity is naive and it's missing critical information. Elegant simplicity is capturing the nuance in few words or in a really well-drawn two-by-two diagram. It is really hard, but when you do it, it's really sticky. Okay. I'm going to share one of my favorite quotes. We can end here and we can take our postmortem to another episode because I think we should do it. I think it's interesting. This is one of my favorite quotes and this is weird. I'm looking at it because I have it on a screenshot. If I could communicate with you in screenshots, that would be, okay, these are all haircuts and they're all the exact same haircuts.

45:58Are you picking on my hair?

46:00Brené Brown:No. Oh my God. No, that's funny though. You got a good noggin. Can I say that? Am I allowed to say that? I don't know. Are you? I don't know. I think you have a nice noggin. Well, thank you. Okay. I don't know where this quote is. I prefer the apology compliment for the record. That's a bad compliment acceptor. You are the worst. I'm horrible at that. Yeah. I think I did okay today though on it. You did. I was trying to find this. Fight you or self-deprecate. No, you didn't. That's growth. I'll take it. Yeah. And I actually, that's, I love it when you do that. I can't find my fun quote, but they're mostly, I just have like my kids playing.

46:35Brené Brown:Oh, wait, I can read this one to you, but it's about the feast of Mary, mother of the church in today's gospel reading. I will not share that. Yeah, that's not going to land for me. Yeah, okay. Okay, wait. So we need to go to our closing questions. I really am looking for my quote. Give me two seconds. There are me and Steve at prom. I can't, and I don't even care. Like, we don't even have to cut this because this is what real life looks like. But I don't know where this quote is, but I'm going to say it and maybe you can, you'll probably know it from memory. It's so irritating. It's a quote by a German philosopher that talks about the reason that complex simplicity is so rare is because it's mostly grossly misunderstood and requires some information to get.

47:24Brené Brown:I'm going to find it and put it in the show notes. Please do. By the way, I love the way you just reframed that as complex simplicity. That's a great paradox. But complex simplicity is why metaphor and story and analogy to say, take something complex and then put it in a dimension that people understand. And poetry too. And this is why we're doing the show. The Curiosity Shop is all about trying to reach complex simplicity in a world that wants easy answers and quick fixes and consumes way too much snake oil. Oh my God, we should leave it there. We should thank Canva and we should thank SAS for being kind of launch partner and sponsors with us.

48:12Brené Brown:We're grateful for that. Okay. So this is exactly how this shit's going down. We have an agenda and we get on a rabbit trail of research and come, but this is a good conversation. I really appreciated it. And I do really appreciate your commitment to being good at repair and apology. And I can say that it's had an impact on me. Oh, well, thank you. Not just on the receiving end of it, but getting better at doing it myself. Well, but that only happens because I've started to absorb some of your willingness to rumble and have difficult conversations that I was too much of a chicken to have for a lot of my life.

48:51And I just don't want to be that person anymore.

48:54Brené Brown:Yeah, same. I'll work on it with you. Pinky. Thank you. Oh, look, he goes for the fist bump. I go for the pinky promise. All right. First episode in the can. What do we think? We did it. I don't know. I think we should do our zero to 10 rating and give each other a note on how we can do better next time. Okay. Now the zero to 10 is going to seem too. Yeah. No, it's not going to be zero to 10. What's something I and we can do better next time? I don't know how to use this. I don't either. That's why I didn't bring one. I don't know how to use this, but I want to be able to look up things and get my notes.

49:29Brené Brown:But maybe that's just like my magical thinking that that's what I want to do. But I do want to use it. But right now we're just staring at a picture of Hannah Waddingham because I really liked her hair. And I was wondering what skin products she was using. So this is not what's supposed to be up here. Focus, Brene. Focus. I know. I can't. I can't. Okay. What was your surprise? Okay. So this really is a surprise question, and I have mixed feelings about it already. I can tell. Yeah. Well, you know, I was just thinking about how we got here. Okay. And the preview, I guess, is we got here by disagreeing a lot.

50:01Yes. And so I was curious about what you think we'll never agree on.

50:11Brené Brown:What do I think we will never agree on?

50:18So every time I have something that I don't think we're going to agree on, I think we end up agreeing to some degree.

50:26Brené Brown:But I wonder if return to work. But under return to work is I'm wondering if we'll ever agree. Oh, I think there's a lot of things we're never going to agree on. Okay. I wonder if under some of the things that we'll never agree on will be fundamentally the conflict between research and lived experience.

51:08Brené Brown:that I think so many constructs and ideas and theories and strategies that come out of research. Obviously, it's important. I think research is important. I wouldn't be here. Research professor who? Yeah, yeah, right. Exactly. But there is – I wonder if we'll agree upon whose responsibility it is to fill the gap between data and theory and then how that shit actually works out on the ground. Like the gap between the idea and the practical reality. We might never agree on that. Yeah. I think that's right. Yeah, I think we'll never agree on it because I think we'll get into a return to work. We'll do an episode on return to work because I think where I get stuck is scholars who study it.

52:01And in order to study it and really have meaning, you have to have some controlled variables.

52:07Brené Brown:Say, oh, you don't need to be back at work. Productivity is fine, blah, blah, blah. But then you have like Tim Cook, who runs a company at a trillion dollar valuation, who I'm pretty sure knows what he's doing in terms of a creative company and was first to come out and say, everybody back to work. And so there's a conflict between sometimes I think between research and lived experience that I wonder if we'll ever get there. I will always trust the evidence over experience. If I have to choose. Right. I will always question where the experience or where the research stops being helpful because that's not people's lived experience.

52:50Brené Brown:And then I don't think I'll attack the research, but I'll say it's hard. I think in our line of work, we're, I don't know. I think it's hard. I think this will be a place of struggle. I think so too. Yeah. Wait, what do you think? Well, I thought of two. Okay. One is text versus email. Oh, you're just wrong. No. Email is better than text. It's asynchronous. You can do it on your own time. You can file things away. Texts are just never ending and they grab your attention and they take control of your life. We don't text the same then, maybe. Maybe not. Yeah. Nothing. Okay. So here's this. nothing comes in to my text.

53:44Brené Brown:Rarely do things come into my text that are not important. Email, I'm bombarded. 90 % of the email, I have to filter to find you. Like I have to filter to find you. And so, and I get overwhelmed by it. And I guess maybe I also don't share my phone number very much with people. So if you're not like immediate in my life, you don't have my phone number. I don't either. But why don't you like, I love texting. We text all the time. You hate it? No, I mean, I don't hate texting with you, but we're actually having conversations about this show and learning from each other, right? Yeah. I think for me, most of the communication I have with other people would be so much easier to do by email because I can sit down and do it when it's convenient and then file it away and know where it is.

54:37Email is organized. I know exactly how many tasks I have to do. Text, it's just, it's a mess. I hate texting. Don't ever text me.

54:49Brené Brown:No, that's funny because we text all the time. Okay. What's the other thing? Okay. The other thing is much, much bigger. Faith. Faith? Faith. I know, we've never talked about this before. No, we haven't, but you listed When I asked you what your two core values were, you said faith and courage. Yeah. And I was like, oh, we are not going to agree on this one. Why? I don't believe in anything that can't be proven. But I also don't disbelieve in anything that can't be disproven. I don't believe in anything that can't be proven. Okay. And I don't. Disbelieve in anything that can't be disproven.

55:29Brené Brown:oh yeah we'll disagree on that big time right yeah no yeah yeah i um if it's a mystery that surpasses all human understanding i'm for it i am for being open to the possibility yeah never having faith in it oh yeah no yeah we won't we We won't agree on that, but I think that's okay. Like, yeah, I think that's great. Um, yes. So I think it's a minor miracle that we've gotten to a place where we can be okay about disagreeing. Do you believe in miracles? No, definitely not. Not a chance. You're just baiting me now. No, no, no. You walked right into it. It wasn't complicated. No, that's fair. But But I do think, I mean, we started out not being okay with disagreeing at all, I think.

56:23Brené Brown:Well, I was okay with disagreeing with you because you were wrong. What's something you think we can do better? I think, I don't know, I really enjoyed the, I love how free form our riffing is. Same. I always come away with new ideas. And, you know, I think one thing we can do more of, this isn't a better yet, But one thing we can do more of is I found myself smiling every time you said, I don't agree with that. And that is, we've come a long way from, I was so pissed off when you wrote that piece. Yeah, yeah. I was shaking. You know I rarely emote. It was an unusual experience for me. And so to be at a place now where you can say, I disagree.

57:06Yeah. And I'm not bothered. And I'm actually excited to learn. And also, you know, debated a little bit. I love that. I think we can probably find a little bit more attention. intellectually.

57:17Brené Brown:I don't think we should look for it. Okay. But I mean, we can have meta tension around that. I think this is such a great way to wrap it up. I think if we're both authentically who we are, have I earned the right to be authentic? Yes, you have. You earned the right to see my authenticity. Yeah. I think I, I think I have six years ago. We were, no, we were not, But I think if we're both just ourselves here, the tension is going to be organic. Yeah, that's right. Because we just don't see the world the same way. Nope. But we see the same world, which is weird. And value the same thing. Yeah, mostly.

57:57Brené Brown:Yeah, I think so. Let's do it. We're glad you're here. Come back. We'll still be on our first agenda from podcast one by the end of the season. Fun. Thank you. Thank you. The Curiosity Shop is produced by Brene Brown Education and Research Group and Granted Productions. You can subscribe to The Curiosity Shop on YouTube or follow in your favorite podcast app. We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Discover more award-winning shows at podcast.voxmedia.com.