In short
The episode debates two “communication tools” that avoid accountability: the “Invisible Army” (saying “we all believe/think” without naming who) and “bullshit disclaimers” (hedges like “I don’t mean to be critical/rude”). They argue that precision about what you personally observed or feel matters, especially in low psychological safety cultures. They also discuss anonymous surveys, 360s, and how to give feedback without preemptively escaping responsibility.
Guests
Brene Brown and Adam Grant (hosts/guests). No other guests appear in the transcript.
Guest backgrounds
Brene Brown is a researcher/author known for work on vulnerability, courage, and leadership communication. Adam Grant is a researcher/author known for work on organizational psychology and leadership.
Key claims
“We all believe” can signal manipulation/groupthink; better is “I observed” with clear responsibility. Disclaimers can function as accountability “trap doors.” Responsibility (ownership) differs from accountability (justifying to others). In some contexts, weak language can be effective for women, but it may reinforce stereotypes.
Notable examples
workplace “invisible army” vs “I’m observing”; anonymous surveys as “invisible” but not “royal we”; role-play stopping “I don’t mean to be critical”; “no offense” as shifting offense-responsibility; salary negotiation line: “I don’t know how typical… but I’m hopeful you’ll see my skill… as important,” which boosted women’s recommendations without hurting men’s.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOThe Invisible Army in Communication
0:45 to 3:19
Explore the concept of the 'Invisible Army' in workplace communication.
“I don't want to be wrong on this topic today.”
The Role of Psychological Safety
3:19 to 5:50
Discuss the impact of psychological safety on workplace communication.
“you're not selfish, that you're thinking about the good of the group and that, you know, you're, you're not raising something that's idiosyncratic.”
Distinctions in Communication Styles
5:50 to 10:35
Understanding the differences between speaking for the group and individual responsibility.
“you know, my sisters and I talk about this all the time.”
Precision in Language Matters
10:35 to 14:03
The importance of precise language in workplace discussions and feedback.
“And you're only objecting to a subset of that when I'm claiming to proxy a bunch of people who are hidden or unknown, and I'm not willing to even take ownership over the fact that I agree with them.”
Precision of Language in Leadership
14:03 to 15:15
Learn how precise language can alleviate anxiety and self-doubt in teams.
“I wanted to talk to you about something I'm observing in the team.”
The Importance of Choosing Words
17:23 to 18:09
Discuss the significance of word choice in communication and culture.
“I want to talk about, it sounds like we're going to talk a lot about language today, which is great because you and I are both word nerds.”
Anonymous Surveys and Accountability
18:09 to 21:00
Examine the pros and cons of anonymous surveys in organizations and their impact on honesty.
“gave me the same ick that your we all believe and we all think and we all want gave me.”
Navigating Feedback in Organizations
21:00 to 22:56
Learn about creating a culture for open feedback and the role of anonymity.
“And the survey dilemma is interesting because I think on one level, I want to get to a point where people can say what they really think and put their names on it.”
Understanding Bullshit Disclaimers
22:56 to 24:12
Identify and tackle common disclaimers that evade accountability in conversations.
“If any conversation about power or equity is off limits, then, you know, I'd wear gloves when I completed the anonymous survey.”
Role-Playing Feedback Conversations
24:12 to 28:00
Engage in role-playing scenarios to practice giving constructive feedback effectively.
“When someone says, I don't mean to be critical, but what they're saying is, I'm getting ready to be very critical and I do not want to be held accountable for that behavior.”
Show all 26 chapters
Navigating Feedback and Accountability
28:00 to 29:40
Explore how to deliver feedback without undermining relationships.
“Oh, no, we can be discerning and we can, I love the coaching and I love the feedback.”
Curiosity vs. Accountability in Communication
29:40 to 31:30
Discuss the balance between curiosity and accountability in conversations.
“I'm coming from the shut the fuck up lens, which is different than the welcome to the curiosity shop lens.”
The Impact of Context on Feedback
31:30 to 33:30
Understand how the context of a relationship influences feedback delivery.
“approach both my goals and my communication style a little more thoughtfully.”
Gender Dynamics in Communication
33:30 to 35:30
Examine how gender influences perceptions and delivery of feedback.
“I don't know what you're getting ready to say, but just know that that's not going to work.”
Red Flags and Responsibility in Conversations
35:30 to 37:30
Learn about recognizing disclaimers and ensuring accountability in dialogue.
“I would imagine saying, whoa, before you even go there, I don't ever experience your feedback to me as rude.”
Distinguishing Responsibility from Accountability
37:30 to 40:00
Clarify the difference between responsibility and accountability in discussions.
“What, what, let's do another one actually.”
Understanding Responsibility vs. Accountability
42:00 to 43:39
Explore the nuances between personal responsibility and interpersonal accountability.
“So responsibility is personal and accountability is interpersonal.”
Navigating Communication Disclaimers
43:40 to 45:46
Discuss the impact of disclaimers in communication and how to improve them.
“Yeah, so, okay, let's keep that in mind.”
The Science Behind Sensitivity in Speech
45:47 to 48:39
Learn about the research on communication styles and their effectiveness.
“Okay, so this is a big aha moment for me because this clarifies why I like another flavor of disclaimer and hedge.”
Negotiating with Strength and Vulnerability
48:40 to 55:15
Examine how to balance assertiveness and openness in negotiations.
“And I think I find that really compelling.”
The Role of Disclaimers in Salary Negotiation
55:16 to 56:00
Discover effective strategies for women negotiating salaries through communication.
“who might be threatening to a majority group member or who might be in just a tough position?”
The Impact of Salary Recommendations on Women
56:00 to 57:30
Learn how language choice in salary negotiations influences perceptions.
“So here is the line that boosted salary recommendations for women did not matter for men in one of their experiments.”
Authenticity in Communication
57:30 to 59:24
Discover the importance of authenticity and confidence in expressing worth.
“Just, I mean, we're talking about, about these micro patterns of communication.”
The Importance of Asking Questions
59:24 to 1:02:00
Explore how effective communication involves asking the right questions.
“the fact that I didn't know whether someone's in a car service for me for a job.”
Navigating Disclaimers and Accountability
1:02:00 to 1:04:49
Understand the balance between disclaimers and taking responsibility for language.
“The other thing that I'm just left thinking about is I think we, no, maybe not.”
Reflections on Nuance and Care in Language
1:04:49 to 1:06:41
Reflect on the nuances of language and the care needed in communication.
“And I don't always love it when you pump the brakes, but I did not find myself flying through the windshield on this one.”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:00It's time to bring on the blooms at the Home Depot with Spring Garden Deals. Find savings on hanging baskets and flowers to brighten your backyard or any space that needs instant color. Then get everything you need to plant and protect them with low prices guaranteed on soil and mulch. Dig into Spring Garden Deals for four days at the Home Depot, now through May 10th. Exclusion Supply, see homedepot.com slash price match for details. Welcome to The Curiosity Shop, a show from the Fox Media Podcast Network.
0:39Brené Brown:Hi, everyone. I'm Brene Brown. And I'm Adam Grant. And today we're here to watch Adam be really generous to me. I don't want to be wrong on this topic today. I do not. I cannot be wrong on this topic today. I am very vested in my rightness. Wow. Okay. So you're already appealing to my core values and asking me to violate other values. You sort that shit out on your own, but I need to be right. You sort your value hierarchy over there. You do that over there, but we're going to talk about two insidious Machiavellian communication tools that people use that are my least favorite in the whole world.
1:29I can't wait. But I should say, a wise friend once told me it's more important to get it right than to be right.
1:37Brené Brown:Yeah, I call bullshit. But okay. So I think we all know this first one. It is, I'm guilty of doing it. And I've been on the receiving end of it. And it's hard. I call it in my work, The Invisible Army. So in a work context, you're my boss. And I come up to you and I say, hey, Adam, we're really exhausted. All of us are really tired of the way these priorities are shifting. We're really kind of sick of the pressure on us to do more with less and we need a break. What's your first instinct there? I want to hear more. Okay. Let me tell you my first instinct. Let's turn the scenario around. You come to me and say, we're all exhausted.
2:26Brené Brown:We're tired. We're the constant reprioritization's killing us. We need a break. I'm going to want to look at you and say, you got a mouse in your pocket? Like, who's we? I cannot. This invisible army, we all think. We all believe. We're all wondering. like come to me with the I, that's important enough. But for me, the invisible army of the people that are backing up your, you know, and even in, in, in personal, in the personal world, listen, we're all, we, we, we're all really disappointed by this. Or, you know, we all think you should talk to dad about this. This is so fascinating. This is exactly the kind of communication I teach.
3:15Brené Brown:You teach people to say we? Absolutely. It's, I mean, it signals that you're not selfish, that you're thinking about the good of the group and that, you know, you're, you're not raising something that's idiosyncratic. It's actually relevant to everyone. It's chicken shit. I completely disagree. Unless you're willing to say to me, Hey Adam, do you have a second? I sat down and spoke with Sabrina, Jose, and Jack around what's going on. And we kind of came up with some ideas. They were not able to meet with you, but they said that I could talk to you about this. I mean, I think it's terrible. Like, I literally, like, unless you have a critter in your pocket, I don't ever want to hear your invisible army.
4:06Okay, I do. I want to hear it all the time, but I don't want it to be invisible. So I think what you just outlined is ideal in an environment with high psychological safety. That's the standard I'm aspiring to all the time. And anyone should be able to speak on behalf of the group, or ideally everyone is speaking independently for themselves. In environments that lack psychological safety, if you're in a culture of fear, if you're in a culture of blame and shame, it's really risky to put yourself out there. And so if I'm the one to come to you and say, hey, I've heard a lot of people complaining about this.
4:38Everyone else is afraid to tell you. For me, that's an act of courage, right? Because I'm the messenger and I might get shot. And it's so important that I'm willing to raise it anyway on behalf of the group.
4:48Brené Brown:You did not say we once in your role model here. You said - Oh, I'm not role modeling it. I'm explaining. I'm just saying, you said, I'm coming to you because here's what I'm hearing. And I think other people are concerned about it. So I wanted to let you know. That is not the Invisible Army. Isn't it though? No. Aren't they less visible? No, no, no. That is, no. I think that's very different than you arming yourself with, we all believe, we all think. You're saying, I'm observing this. I wanted to let you know about my observation. You're not representing, you're not representing a delegation, a fake delegation of fake ass people.
5:32Brené Brown:because you're not using the I statement. And so - That's so interesting. Yeah, I think this is really important because literally this invisible army, and the way it plays out in family dynamics is, you know, my sisters and I talk about this all the time. You know, we all think you're being a real asshole here. Like we who? I'm not going to say because, you know, again, because you're an asshole. No, no. Like, if you think I'm being an asshole, I want to hear that from you. But again, unless you've got people in your pocket, and if you do, bring them out and then de-shrink them up to human size and let's have a real adult conversation.
6:17I think the invisible army, I think if you're teaching people to have the courage to say, there's something going on I think you should know about. I can't speak clearly to people's comfort levels about coming to you, but here's something I'm
6:33Brené Brown:seeing. I think it's getting in the way of the work we're doing. And I wanted to let you know about it. That's really respectful and thoughtful. If you're coming in and leading - This is so fascinating. Yeah. If you're leading with we all think, I'm going to want to know who. And I'm going to tell you why this is such, why this is so important right now. The velocity and volume of change right now is so untenable that there's no way people can keep up. We can't keep everybody informed every second about the changes that are happening. In the absence of data, we make up stories. We just know that because we're a meaning-making species.
7:18Brené Brown:It does require psychological safety and really good daring leadership to say to your team, listen, I'll tell you what I know when I know. If you find yourself making up stories about what's happening, I want you to check them out with me. And it's as simple as saying, hey, the story I'm making up right now is this. when you start using invisible armies, you are taking small collections of fire and pouring gasoline on them. And it creates such a toxic environment. We all believe, we all think. So I have a different reaction to this. I think the two versions that you think are so different for me are almost identical.
8:06and when so let me let me actually just react to what you just said i think when you say it creates a toxic environment to bring an invisible army i what i see is people are doing that because they're in a toxic environment that is a survival strategy i'm coming to you and i'm saying hey i've been elected by a group of people who are too afraid to even give you their names i i'm speaking up because I think you're going to lose some really amazing people. And they're just too nervous to even put their thoughts out there in a way that could damage their reputation or their relationship with you.
8:43And I know that it's ironic that this is my reaction, not yours, because you're the one of the two of us who's normally more sensitive to power differences, right? And I just look at this and I see, I'm not like, when someone comes to you and they have the invisible army. Yeah, I get that in some cases, it's a strategy and they're trying to bolster credibility or they're trying to build up support for something that they know is a little self-serving or kind of just a personal ask. But that's not how I see it unfold in most of the organizations I work with. I see people do this when they feel they have no other choice and they say, okay, look, this is a culture in which people do not speak truth to power.
9:26and so this is the only way I can do that safely
9:31Brené Brown:so this is going to maybe get too nuanced for the podcast where listeners and watchers are going to be like what's happening here again I did not hear you in your example use an invisible army I heard you I heard you take I heard you take full responsibility for what you're doing I'm coming to you I was elected by a group of people who are fearful about coming to you to let you know these things. That is very different than saying, we believe, we feel, we want. Those are, to me, even neuro-linguistically, very different things. Okay, that's a helpful distinction. Now, okay. So when you said Invisible Army originally, I was thinking, okay, you're objecting to any time I come and speak on behalf of a group, but you don't know who they are.
10:37And you're only objecting to a subset of that when I'm claiming to proxy a bunch of people who are hidden or unknown, and I'm not willing to even take ownership over the fact that I agree with them.
10:48Brené Brown:Right. Huge difference. Yeah, that is a big difference. I agree with that. Yeah. And I have to tell you that, like, when I think about this from an organizational perspective, as a former union steward, that was my job. You know, but not until this very second sitting here did I even think about the possibility that that's where this training came from. So as a union steward, I never, I was trained to never say, we believe, we feel. Now, I was trained to believe there's a problem on the floor. Yes. This is what's generating fear. It's getting in the way of work. It's creating burnout and call-ins, call-outs.
11:40Brené Brown:So that's different because I'm taking responsibility for coming to you with a problem that I'm observing. I'm not pretending to represent exactly how people feel and think and believe because I'm scared that me believing and thinking and feeling it isn't enough. Yes. Yeah. I've never, I've, yes. I have never noticed this distinction until you brought it up. And I think it's important and right. You know, it reminds me of some, some research I published years ago with Sharon Parker and Catherine Collins, where we studied how often people spoke up with concerns and suggestions. And we were interested in whether supervisors valued and appreciated it or whether they, they tended to reject it.
12:27And what our data showed was that supervisors liked it if you were doing it for pro-social reasons. If it seemed like you were trying to help the group and you were bringing up a problem or a solution that could benefit the whole team. But if supervisors perceived it as self-serving rather than benevolent, they tended to dismiss it or even penalize it. And I've always then assumed that the we language is a way of signaling, hey, this is a collective problem and I'm trying to help all of us. But I think you're right that if you do that in a way that essentially says, yeah, there's a group with a uniform opinion.
13:07And I'm going to tell you, I have read all their minds. I have captured all of their feelings and thoughts. And I'm going to tell you everything that they want. That's not credible. That is manipulative.
13:19Brené Brown:Okay, so that's the thing that we're trying to avoid here in communication. for me. Well, to be honest with you, if you come in and say, we all believe this, or we all think this, I immediately don't trust you. I don't either. And it's not, it's not just you. I now have doubts about your group too, because if you're telling me the truth, best case scenario, then we're in the middle of groupthink. You got a bunch of people who are a hive mind and they're just clones of each other. They're not thinking independently. They're not coming to their own conclusions. They're sharing all the same assumptions.
13:53And that means their thinking is faulty and flawed. So I don't, I don't want to listen to it, even if you're being honest with me.
13:58Brené Brown:Right. And so they just, just listen for, listen for the accountability shift here. I wanted to talk to you about something I'm observing in the team. And I'm not sure whether you're hearing this from other people or not, but I felt like, I feel like it's an important thing to talk to you about. Here's what I'm seeing and here's how it's disrupting work. And here's how it's creating a lot of anxiety and self-doubt. This is my observation.
14:29Brené Brown:Versus, I came in to tell you that we all think this, we're all feeling this, and we all believe this. Yes. And if I come back to you and say, well, I don't understand why, no, no, no, no, don't get mad at me. No, no, I'm just saying that this is what everybody's thinking. This is what everybody's feeling. So I think precision, especially right now when shit is so hard, precision of language as it relates to what you're representing and what you're accountable for is, I was going to say king, but is even more important than that, it's queen. Yes. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Support for the show comes from Shopify.
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16:40Brené Brown:This week on Net Worth and Chill, I'm joined by Tank Sinatra, the meme king with over 15 million followers across Tank's good news, influencers in the wild, and his personal account. Tank is breaking down what the meme economy really is, how much a single sponsored post pays, why major brands are throwing serious money at jokes and how meme culture, think preparation H, starter packs, and a perfectly timed screenshot is actually reshaping how we think about money and value. Get ready for a conversation that'll change the way you scroll, make you rethink what going viral is really worth and prove that sometimes the most serious money moves are wrapped in the silliest of jokes.
17:19Brené Brown:Listen wherever you get your podcasts or watch on youtube.com slash yourrichbff. Okay. I want to talk about, it sounds like we're going to talk a lot about language today, which is great because you and I are both word nerds. And I don't think enough people spend enough time choosing their words carefully. Before we talk more about language, two things that jumped out at me on this. Number one, have you been watching Pluribus? I can't. I tried. I wanted to. I just, it's so, I go to bed at night and I can't stop thinking about it. Like, I can't. But tell me what you're seeing and watching. I'm obsessed with the whole concept.
18:03I'm only two episodes in and I don't want to spoil it for people who haven't seen it. But the reaction I had watching it and seeing the way that a collective communicates as one gave me the same ick that your we all believe and we all think and we all want gave me. Oh, God, that's so interesting. I think anybody who wants to understand viscerally why you're so bothered by one claiming to fully represent a whole, just go watch two episodes of Pluribus. Done.
18:35Brené Brown:I mean, I heard the acting's amazing. Is it just... It's been stunning so far. But wow. Okay. Maybe I'll try it again. Okay. What's the other thing you wanted to like, I love this. I love this pop culture reference. Okay. The other one's the opposite of pop culture, but I was just thinking about this, you know, this, how do you approach speaking up in a low versus high psychological safety climate question that we were talking about? And one of the questions I get asked a lot, uh, I get, I get tons of questions from managers and leaders about, should we do an anonymous survey of our people or should we make the survey identified?
19:16And I've always been torn on this. And I'm curious to hear your take because let me say this differently. I think an anonymous survey is an invisible army of sorts, but I don't think it's the kind you object to.
19:31Brené Brown:No, because I think an anonymous survey is individuals, there's not a representation, there's not a royal we there. So I think there's a representation, a one-on-one representation of data to person, even if that person is de-identified or anonymous. I think whenever, of course, I get this question often as well. The first thing, because I work from kind of the social work ethic of do no harm first, the first thing that always comes up for me is how anonymous really is your anonymous survey? What's your sample size? How's it being reported? Is it tied to IP address? I would never commit to anonymity if it's not true anonymity, which really is about team size and all kinds of technology stuff.
20:23And I think for me, the answer to that question is always, what is your intention?
20:31Brené Brown:You know, what are you trying to, I have really mixed feelings about 360s as well. I, there's, I've worked with one company out of 30 that does it well. You know? Yeah, it's hard. Yeah, they're hard. And they're flawed. And a flawed, a 360 that has flawed design, flawed implementation, and flawed analysis can just blow up a team and a person. Yeah, I've seen it happen. And the survey dilemma is interesting because I think on one level, I want to get to a point where people can say what they really think and put their names on it. But the bigger the organization, the larger the team, the harder that is.
21:20and so one of the things I've sometimes had leaders say, but I create an environment where everyone can tell me the truth. My door is always open. I'm non-threatening. I'm inclusive. And sometimes I say, okay, let's run the test. Ask people to give you direct feedback and then we're going to do an anonymous survey. And the larger the gap is between what people say to your face and what they say under the cover of secrecy, the more of a problem you have with psychological safety. And I think there's something to be said for, let's let people be invisible, but let's not have one person claim to be in charge of the army.
22:05Brené Brown:I think that's exactly right. The biggest problem with the invisible army is the purported representation. And so, yeah. And I think the other thing that is interesting to me is if I always ask leaders, if their door is open and they're receptive to feedback, then why are they asking me about doing an anonymous survey? I mean, you would know. The other thing is I am pro-anonymity in any culture where there are not open conversations about power. So that's my litmus test. If you talk openly about power, if you talk openly about identity, if you talk about, you know, being the only anything in a room, if those are just kind of normative cultural conversations, then I'm more open to believing that the door is really open.
23:00Brené Brown:If any conversation about power or equity is off limits, then, you know, I'd wear gloves when I completed the anonymous survey. Yeah, just, yeah. That's a great point. Okay, do you want to go to the next one? And this, I'm probably more loaded for bear on this one than even the first one. Wait, why are you laughing? I'm just laughing because you were the one who said a few episodes ago, like, we shouldn't try to amplify tension. We should just, you know, share and then see where the tension emerges. And here you are saying, I am loaded. I want to be right. I do want to be right here because these are like, these are, this one is really tough.
23:45Brené Brown:So I'll introduce this by saying I call these bullshit disclaimers. I know there are other terms in the research for them, but they're wrong. And then I want to, let me just give you the first one. Anything that starts with, look, I don't mean to be critical, but. I don't mean to be shitty, but. I hate to be rude, but. That's my least favorite one. Not to be rude, but you're about to say something really inappropriate and offensive. Thank you for giving me a heads up. That's it. So let me translate those for you. I'm going to be like the translator. When someone says, I don't mean to be critical, but what they're saying is, I'm getting ready to be very critical and I do not want to be held accountable for that behavior.
Read the full transcript
24:28Brené Brown:When they say, hey, listen, I don't mean to be shitty, Adam, but they're getting ready to be shitty, but they don't want to be held accountable for being shitty. This is the translation here. Here's the translation ring. Look, not to be rude, but translation, I'm fixing to be really rude. I do not want to be held accountable for it. That's what's happening here. Thoughts. These are hedges, soft openings. They're called a lot of things. I call them bullshit, but go ahead. I love it. I love it. These disclaimers, the kinds of disclaimers that you're talking about, which are a different kind than the sword I want to defend.
25:07Okay, great. Which is good news, I think. The kind that you're talking about are, I never thought about it as escaping accountability.
25:16Brené Brown:Oh, 100%. When I thought about it, but I think you're spot on. I had a different way of thinking about why those bother me, which is when somebody says not to be rude, but I think that they're trying to preempt what they realize is a reasonable reaction and prevent you from having it. And ironically, I think it has the opposite effect, right? It puts your guard up and leads you to say, wait a minute, why are you mentioning rudeness? Why are you saying not to be critical? You must have had a critical thought. And so I think it's counterproductive regardless of what the person's intent is, that they're trying to escape accountability.
26:02it doesn't work because it draws your attention to the very thing that they're trying to minimize.
26:07Brené Brown:Yes. And it's, it is absolutely a, it's an accountability trap door. And I'm just realizing again in real time for the first time that the reason I do not like the invisible army or the bullshit disclaimer is for the same reason. It lacks accountability. They, I just don't like the lack of accountability. So what I teach people to do, and I mentor a lot of women, and I mentor a lot of women who are first-time college graduates, undergrad graduates that are getting PhDs, and they're on the receiving end of these things all the time. And so I think to combat the bullshit disclaimer, I like to go to, I want to share this with you.
26:59Brené Brown:It's one of my favorite thing. It's Alberto Brandolini's, I love this, the bullshit asymmetry principle. Do you know it? I love Brandolini's laws. Okay. Brandolini's bullshit asymmetry principle. The amount of energy needed to refute bullshit is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it. And so you have to do some work to really combat this. So let's do a role play. Are you game? I'm ready. Okay. I want you to say, look, I really don't want to be critical, but like you're starting a sentence. Brene, I don't want to be critical, but. Okay, wait, wait, let me stop you there. I'm so glad that you don't want to be critical.
27:43Brené Brown:Do you want to take a few minutes to find a more productive way to share your feedback and coaching with me? Because I'm really grateful for your commitment to not be critical. Wait, are you saying we're not allowed to be critical? I thought we wanted to have high standards and be discerning. Oh, no, we can be discerning and we can, I love the coaching and I love the feedback. But when you start a sentence with, I don't mean to be critical, what I hear is I'm going to be critical. I don't want to be accountable for the behavior. So I'm glad you're making a commitment to not do that. Let's try it again.
28:18Brené Brown:Like, this is one of my favorites. I actually took this from a real life experience. I'm not trying to tear you down, but... So you try the intervention here. Look, Adam, I'm not trying to tear you down, but... Oh, oh, wait. Brene, it's really surprising to me that you would even think that I would think that you're trying to tear me down. We have a strong relationship. I know we care about each other. Why would tearing me down even cross your mind? I love this but okay you get bonus points a plus um this is what I mean like you have to have a little tolerance for interrupting which I normally don't love but I think if you want to hold people accountable you have to stop them right there before they get to the shitty part and say great I appreciate the commitment either do you need more time to find a better more productive way to give me some coaching or feedback?
29:16Brené Brown:Or, wow, what you just did was great. I'm going to add it to my repertoire. What did you like about it so I can learn? Oh, wait. You kind of stopped me, which you have to do. And then you said, I'm surprised that tearing me down even came up for you. I would not expect that because we care for each other and we give each other tough feedback sometimes, but in a caring way. How did you get to tearing me down? like again it's an accountability shift yeah yeah it's asking you to be accountable for the phrase that you put on the table and the sentiment behind it it's also i mean my what i was what i was trying to do there was just welcome you to the curiosity shop i am i'm so curious about why you would approach me from a tearing down lens and you should be curious about that too I hope.
30:13Brené Brown:That's really interesting. I'm coming from the shut the fuck up lens, which is different than the welcome to the curiosity shop lens. Okay. And why, why is that? Why is that different? I think. Why is what different? Why do we approach this differently? Okay. We're trying to get to the same point. We're trying to accomplish the same thing. We have different styles. I don't know. Are we? I'm trying to say,
30:44Brené Brown:whoa, take accountability for what you're going to say and don't try to squirm out of accountability before you even say it. And I feel like you're trying to say, whoa, I'm surprised to hear that language from you. I'm curious where it's coming from. I don't know that we are coming from this. You're coming from curiosity. I'm coming from accountability. I think there are different places, maybe. Maybe. But do we want to land the person at the same place? I want to land it at the other person doing some questioning and rethinking of what their intentions were and what kind of relationship we have and saying, huh, I really ought to approach both my goals and my communication style a little more thoughtfully.
31:37Okay.
31:37Brené Brown:That's really wild because let me tell you what happened when I was like, I'm going to add that to my repertoire. Let me tell you what immediately happened in my back processor. This is so wild that this is happening in real time. What happened in my back processor when I said I'm going to add that to my list of things to do is the people I thought about immediately were people I care about and with whom I have a relationship with. So I think that if I care about you, what you're saying is better. Curiosity and connection and care is better than if I don't really know you. And I mean, I've had people stand up in a Q &A at an event and be like, listen, I don't mean to drag you in front of everybody, but I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.
32:28Brené Brown:Great. I want to hear what you have to say, but if you don't want to drag me, then think of a different way to say it. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So our approaches are, Yeah, I was thinking about this in the context of an established relationship. Right. So I think in that, to say, whoa, whoa, great. Where did tear me down come from? Or I don't mean to be rude. Whoa, before you even go, I don't experience feedback from you as rude. I mostly experience it as helpful or at least coming from a place of concern or curiosity. what about this is feeling like different different for you or like it's going to be hard or rude yeah yeah that's really good but that's that means what that is let me tell you what you let me tell you the difference between yours and mine to me yours telegraphs care connection and relationship and mine telegraphs your disclaimer or will not get you out of accountability with me.
33:31Brené Brown:I don't know you. I don't know what you're getting ready to say, but just know that that's not going to work. Two different populations. Different populations, but also different speakers. I wonder, I'm just thinking about gender stereotypes here. It will surprise no one that women have to work harder to prove their competence than men. And so you asserting some degree of strength and authority, which gets taken for granted when I speak as a man, much more so, is that partially gendered? I was with you on the gendered part till you got to the why the gendered about me doing this as a show of confidence or confidence even.
34:13Brené Brown:I think the gender part that started to ring true for me was permission to be rude, critical, tear people down and tear people apart without being held accountable for it. That seems very male to me today. Yeah. And so, yeah. And particularly to do that to a woman. To a woman, right. Yeah. And so, but other power differentials I think exist as well. And so there's other relationships where that plays out. I think the difference for me really comes down to, and it's quite clear in my mind, to be honest, investment. it. When I want to get under something and get curious about it, I want what in coaching, Ike Obathea would call channel three communication, listening for connection, not listening just to understand or listening to respond, but real channel three, listening for care and connection.
35:12Brené Brown:I'm not even on channel three if I don't know you. if I know you I might respond with whoa I don't know what's going to come next but the tearing down is not something we usually do together I think that I because I I wouldn't I was imagined if one of my kids said to me I would have a hard time imagining because I don't I don't think we talk like this to each other in our family but if one of my kids said look mom I don't mean to be rude but I don't imagine saying hey then do you need more time to figure out something you know no way to do this where that's not rude. I would imagine saying, whoa, before you even go there, I don't ever experience your feedback to me as rude.
35:56Brené Brown:Then I think I would say with one of my, I might say, do you want more time to think about what we're going to talk about or something? But I would be on channel three communication. And if you're dealing with a stranger or somebody you don't have a meaningful relationship with, it seemed like your motivation was more to neutralize it. You were almost preemptively putting the person in their place or shutting down their tactic. No? It wasn't neutralizing. It was, what's a nice way to say, proceed with caution. Oh, so you're waving a red flag. I'm waving a flag that said, I don't know what's coming next, but just because you started this way does not mean I'm not going to hold you accountable for the behavior.
36:46Brené Brown:So let me issue a preemptive caution here that I recognize your disclaimer. I understand that the energy it's going to take me to intervene right now is an order of magnitude greater than the bullshit you just created with your disclaimer. So be thoughtful. Yeah. So it's a bit of a wake up call. You are treading on thin ice. Come wait until you get to the right one. Keep going. I'm trying to, I'm trying to find, I I'm, I'm trying to, well, I'm, I'm cycling through the different things I thought as you were saying that. So another one was, no, that's not quite right either. What, what, let's do another one actually.
37:33And I'm going to, I'm going to try to pay attention to my reaction in real time. Okay. Um, okay. I've got one for you.
37:39Brené Brown:Okay. Okay. Brené. Yeah. I've been biting my tongue on this for a while and just no offense, but okay. Well, when you say no offense before you even start, I get genuinely concerned that you're looking for permission to say something offensive. And our relationship really means a lot to me. So if that's what's coming next, I wonder, I'd love to slow down a little bit and get underneath what's going on before we get there. Because when I hear no offense, I usually prep for getting offended. And I don't want us to do that to each other. Okay. Okay. Light bulb. Okay. But this is my channel three care curiosity.
38:35Brené Brown:Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I felt, I felt that strongly, but I also, I felt something that I think is consistent across the different contexts, which is you are actually shifting the responsibility back to me. The way that I'm bringing this up. Yes, yes, yes, yes. Okay, good. Okay. We got it. So the way that I was bringing this up. No offense, but I'm acting like you are being unreasonable in taking offense. Yes. But I know you're the kind of person who might be delicate and sensitive. And so I'm putting it out there saying, hey, don't be that person. I'm not doing anything wrong. It's you. And so you need to adjust to what I'm about to say.
39:18Brené Brown:No, no, not you are a delicate and sensitive person, I might be ready. I'm, I'm getting ready to be a dick. That's how I would see it. Like I'm getting, I'm giving myself permission. Yes. Okay. Cause, cause I'm giving myself permission to not be thoughtful by telling you to not take offense. Therefore I don't have to do any work on my side to make sure that I'm giving you feedback or coaching in a non-offensive way. Yes. Yeah. I think we're actually saying the same thing here. Okay, great. What I'm trying to drive at is I know that what I'm going to say might be offensive, but instead of taking ownership over that and trying to make sure it's not offensive or it's presented in a way that shows care or a desire to help, I am offloading that responsibility to you and leaving you wondering, like, well, why would you say this?
40:20are you like, do you think I'm the kind of person who takes offense easily? Yes, exactly. And, and when, when you cut it off and say, Hey, wait a minute, why don't you pause and think about this for a second? You're putting that responsibility back in my hands where it belongs.
40:38Brené Brown:Okay. This is exactly everything.
40:44It's something. It's definitely something.
40:45Brené Brown:It's everything. It's, we, we were using the word accountability as what both of these communication tools have in common, the invisible army, but it's also about responsibility. When you come into my office and say, I'm observing something that I want to share with you because I have concerns, then you are taking responsibility for what you're getting ready to lay out on my desk. when you, when, when someone says, Hey, let's pause for a second. Then when you say, don't be, I don't want you to be offended. I'm wondering if we can, you know, if we can just get ahead of that, I am shifting. How do you think differently about responsibility and accountability?
41:33Brené Brown:I've never thought about it really before. I think responsibility is, well, okay. I'm just, I'm just thinking about the research on this. Responsibility is a sense that it's a, it's a sense of ownership that I take over my actions or over a decision. Whereas accountability is me having to justify my actions to you. Okay. I'm not tracking. Say it again. So responsibility is personal and accountability is interpersonal. Okay, got it. Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. So responsibility is something I can take, but you can hold me accountable. Got it. Okay, that's super helpful. I have to justify, explain, and answer to you, as opposed to when I'm responsible, I'm answering to myself.
42:21Brené Brown:God, then why don't we talk about radical responsibility instead of radical accountability? Because we don't trust people to uphold their commitments to themselves. We think that they need to be held accountable by others. I don't think that, but a lot of people think that. Yeah, yeah. That's interesting. It's like a whole other podcast, I think. It might be. Yeah.
42:47Brené Brown:So it's interesting because I'm going to get really nuanced here, but I think it's really important. I mean, I'm telling you, unless you are an island, if you have a partner, if you're a parent, if you have children, if you have friends, I think this is an important conversation. because when I stop you, when you say, look, I don't mean to tear you down here, Brene, but, and I stop you, I think two things are happening. And I say, whoa, whoa, whoa. Then let's stop before that even potentially could happen. There's two things happening there, Adam. One is I need you before you start to take responsibility for what you're going to say.
43:29Brené Brown:And I will hold you accountable for what you say. ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, jackpot. Do you know what I mean? You're asking me to take responsibility and you are making it clear up front that if I don't, you are going to hold me accountable. Yeah, that's exactly right. Yeah, so, okay, let's keep that in mind. Let's hold that in mind. So what these preemptive pauses, I like that better than interruptions when people are using these bullshit disclaimers, what they're doing is a combination of responsibility and accountability. so let's try it again and I don't really know you and so I don't know that I'm going to be on channel three communication with you looking for care and connection I'm just going to I'm just going to probably say something so why don't you say to me look I don't mean to be shitty about this so why don't you try that with me I have to I have to use one that I would actually Okay.
44:25Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
44:27Brené Brown:That's what I would say. I don't like to think about myself as someone who would ever be shitty. So, uh, that might be wishful thinking, but here we go. Brene, I don't mean to sound like a jerk here, but it's really important. Okay. Okay. Let me, can I just stop you there? You already did. Yeah. It, it worries me when you say that you don't mean to sound like a jerk because I don't experience you as a jerk. I can't do the other one with you because I'm always on channel three communication with you because we're friends. So I would just probably say, when you say you don't mean to sound like a jerk, I immediately kind of get defensive.
45:09Brené Brown:And I also am curious about, we don't talk to each other like that. So do you want to take a pause and figure out another way that would be jerk proof? Yeah. So there it is. like, I need you to take responsibility for what you're going to say. And to say, I don't mean to sound like a jerk is not enough responsibility. Yes. And if you are indeed a jerk to me, I will hold you accountable for it. And your disclaimer is not a get out of jerk, you know, free card. Okay, so this is a big aha moment for me because this clarifies why I like another flavor of disclaimer and hedge. Okay. The kind that I like are the opposite of making excuses.
46:06They are, I love disclaimers and hedges that show interpersonal sensitivity as opposed to showing a lack of sensitivity and a lack of concern and care for others. So can I walk you through some examples of the ones that I find myself advising?
46:22Brené Brown:I am on the edge of my chair with bated breath and I'm a little nervous. Go ahead. Okay. Brene, I might be wrong, but here's a thought. Brene, I think this might be true, but I'm not 100 % sure. What do you think? I love those. Do you want to react or do you want me to tell you why the science has taught me to love them first? Oh, you could tell me. I'm torn. I'm mixed, but I want to hear about the science. I want to hear about the science, and then I'll walk through it with you. Go ahead. Tell me about the science. I'm curious. I'm very curious. Good, good. Okay, so there's a solid body of evidence showing that if we are interdependent, if we're collaborating, if we're playing basketball as opposed to doing gymnastics, to use one of our new favorite analogies, that you care as much about whether I'm interested in your opinion as you do about whether my opinions are right.
47:32and you're vetting me on care, not just competence. And in those situations, it's really important for me to show that I'm willing to consider your view, that I'm not just locked into my view. I have to balance assertiveness and openness. So Alison Fregale calls this the power of powerless speech. And she finds that when people are evaluating a potential teammate, and I imagine this is true also when they're looking at a possible partner on a first date, that they look at these disclaimers and hedges and think, okay, this person is not going to be a bull in a China shop. They're not going to dominate every decision.
48:12They're actually going to be receptive to what I have to say. And the research I've read on this in the workplace suggests that if your boss is easily threatened, it's better to frame your suggestion as a question. Like, here's an idea, what do you think of this? As opposed to, here's an idea, you should adopt this. And if you want to influence someone who has more power than you, instead of just telling them what you're going to do, it's more effective to seek their advice and say, hey, you know, I'm kind of torn. What direction would you recommend? And I think I find that really compelling. And there's, I think a bunch of evidence suggesting that unfortunately we live in a world where these strategies are especially important for women because women are more likely to threaten male audiences in particular.
49:05And using so-called weak language is actually a source of surprising strength, which we can go into more, but I have said enough things.
49:14Brené Brown:Well, what's at top of mind right now for me is fuck that. Rightfully so. That's why I said unfortunately. Yeah. That unfortunately doesn't cover it. But here is where I get worried. Well, first of all, let me just say this. For the record, as my partner and collaborator in this podcast. I am not going to do that. I am zero chance am I going to do that if it does not accurately reflect my genuine sentiment. Yes, endorse. Otherwise, you know, this is like the gauntlet of talk. This is the gauntlet of bullshit masculinity is that if I'm direct, I'm an aggressive bitch. And if I hedge and use disclaimers, then I'm wishy-washy and lack executive presence.
50:18Like, so I'm going to pick the one that makes me,
50:26Brené Brown:enables me to sleep at night. And so, and this, I'm like, I'm really having to stay in my skin. I'm working really hard to not lose my mind right now, but it would not be unlike me. And I think you could, you know, starting a business together with a partner like you and I have done, which a podcast is a business, is not easy. And we've had really hard talks, really hard rumbles. We've talked about having to do repair with each other. it's not going to be unusual for me to genuinely say to you, I'm not sure if this is the best idea that I've ever had or the worst thing I've ever thought and that I'm scared.
51:09Brené Brown:I'm not even sure what's driving it, but here's what I'm wondering if we should consider doing. I'm going to say that to you because it genuinely reflects where I am. but the days of me contorting myself into a hedgy little disclaimer, well, I have an idea and I'm wondering if you think it's a good idea because it would be so cute if you thought it was a good idea. Fuck that. I'm not doing that. And yeah, I don't ever want to hear that from anyone, especially from women, but anybody, but anybody. Yeah. And so I think it really, does point to, it really does point to, it really almost makes me want to cry.
51:56Brené Brown:I'm going to be really honest with you. It's like, I really have to fight back tears because it's just not me. It's, you know, black folks and brown folks and disabled folks and queer folks and people who, you know, this is the best idea you're ever going to hear, dude. And I'm going to make you think it's yours so I don't get in trouble. So you're not threatened by, you know, my excellence and, you know, you're winning mediocrity. It's just, it's really hard. And so what I would say is, I think it's interesting to read the comments on our podcast because some people listen to it who are not into the leadership work that we do and not even into thinking about work.
52:32Brené Brown:They're thinking about this for their lives. I think I would say when I genuinely feel curious, I want to be in relationships with people where I'm not dinged for saying, look, I'm not sure, but here's what I'm thinking. Yes. And I want to be equally in relationships where I'm like, shit, I think I figured this out last night. This is what I think we should do. Then I want people to be like, go, go. I love this for you. Shine the light. I love it. And so if you can't be both in your power and in your vulnerability, in your personal life with people, It's a reevaluation marker for me. And at work, I just want you to know that that's not always true for all of us.
53:24Brené Brown:I mean, I think probably I take this so personally because I just think as a newly minted assistant professor, this was my whole life in committee. You know? I'm wondering. I mean, I'm not sure. But I'm thinking we should, you know, this is the reality. And this is why equity matters. This is why feminism matters. This is why representation matters. And this is the problem, I think, sometimes with research. It will tell us through a scientific model what's effective, but not always shine a light on why we have to do shit like that to be effective. Yeah. Beautifully said with power and vulnerability.
54:09And I would say it tells us what's effective, but not always what's right. Oh, God, yes. It also tells us what's effective in a one-shot situation, but rarely addresses the question of, are we then just reinforcing the stereotype and failing to shatter it? And I think the more times you break the stereotype by saying, this is a really good idea, the better, right? Because you are modeling a different way of communicating and legitimating that. That's right.
54:39Brené Brown:Right. And, you know, as I listen to your reactions on this, I think it strikes me that two things can be true simultaneously here. One is that we've just got to stop evaluating people on their styles of communication and start evaluating them on the quality of their ideas and the thought and care they put into presenting them. I think that's right. I think that's exactly right. Unfortunately, we're not there yet. We sadly live in a world where people still get judged on the group they belong to and the identity they hold. And given that, I'm still committed to figuring out, okay, what is effective for somebody who might be threatening to a majority group member or who might be in just a tough position?
55:31How do they communicate? And so I want to get your reaction to a specific example. This is Hannah Reilly Bowles and Linda Babcock. It's one of their experiments on relational accounts, the work on women negotiating salaries. So they tried to put together an example of something that you could say that I think shows both strength and vulnerability. And I like it. I have a hunch that you have some ways to improve it. So here is the line that boosted salary recommendations for women did not matter for men in one of their experiments. I should say the line is part of a paragraph, but this is the line that stood out for me.
56:15The line goes like this. I don't know how typical it is for people at my level to negotiate, but I'm hopeful you'll see my skill at negotiating as something important that I bring to the job. I love it. There's a disclaimer, right? I'm actually not sure if this is appropriate, but this is something I'm really good at. And guess what? I'm going to be negotiating on your behalf if you hire me or if you give me a raise. And this skill that you could otherwise perceive is hurting you because I'm asking you for more money. This is actually going to work to your benefit.
56:47Brené Brown:Yeah. And I don't think I'm, did you say this or did I know this already? Men did not get dinged on that. Correct. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so I don't know because to me, what my my my read is i i don't really i don't really care if this is normative or not i'm gonna i'm gonna negotiate this with you because i think it's a good skill that i have and i'd like for you to see it and i'd like more money and so um so oh i like i like i like how candidly you did that you just put it out there yeah i mean that that's it i think i'm worth more And so, so I think that. Well, pause on that for a second. Pause on that.
57:31Brené Brown:Yeah, yeah. Just, I mean, we're talking about, about these micro patterns of communication. Yeah. I think, I mean, the word that comes to mind is authenticity, but. Right. You said it, you said it so matter of fact. I think I'm worth it. that there's something so influential about that, that it doesn't come through when somebody says, I'm going to make the case to you that I'm worth it. I'm worth it for the following seven reasons where it starts to feel over explained and over justified. And you're just saying, I think I'm worth it, which doesn't require me to put up my guard and argue with you.
58:11And it also, it just conveys so much confidence on your part. Like you don't have any doubt. I'm worth it.
58:18Brené Brown:Yeah, and I'm also - That is such an effective way to communicate. Yeah, for me, I also think, though, it's really tough too because I have, it's personality aligned for me. Like I'm not always funny, but I'm quick-witted. It might be bad, but I, you know, I have a personality that that suits. And so I know what style is best for me. Would it work for everyone? I'm not sure. Or have I heard it more recently in our hiring over the last two or three years? 100%. Do I love it in people? 100%. And so I, because they will be representing me in situations where I will need to see that level of grounded confidence.
59:01So I think that, and the other thing is that in terms of the humanity up front, the humanity and the power, the vulnerability and the confidence, those
59:17Brené Brown:things living together, I think curiosity is the key there. I, we talked about this the other day where we were talking about, oh, I was, I was joking about the fact that I didn't know whether someone's in a car service for me for a job. And I was like, should I tip this person? I, cause I came up, you know, in addition to being a union steward in my colorful past, I was a bartender and waiter for six years. And so I just said, you know what, I know this seems really weird, but how does tipping work with y 'all? Because it's important to me to get it right. And so if you've been tipped, I want to know, but if you haven't been tipped.
59:51Brené Brown:I want to know. And the driver literally turned around the light and said, it's so thoughtful that you would ask me that. Most people are so anxious to talk about money and things like that that they just wouldn't even ask. So they would either, they just probably wouldn't do anything. I'm like, yeah, I just don't know how it works. And he's like, well, this is how it works. This is almost like, oh, sorry, go ahead. No. And what I learned was there is a minimal tip included, but it's not a living wage kind of tip. But a regular normal tip would be too much because there is a small percentage included.
1:00:30Brené Brown:So he said, if you're driving with one of our drivers in this driving service, this is really helpful. I was like, man, thanks. That's so helpful. It would have never occurred to me to go to the source and just ask. It's almost like asking for directions as a man. driving. No, no, no. I should just know. I should be able to figure it out. And what I would do instead, if I couldn't, is I ask somebody else who's taking the car service, but I don't go directly to the driver. And I loved how you did that. We're probably at time here. So maybe moving toward wrap up. So two high level, I don't know how high level these are actually, two reactions, just stepping back a little bit.
1:01:12One is, I think my big worry around people just objecting across the board to disclaimers is I hear a lot of people just pounce on so-called weak language. And they say, you got to edit all the disclaimers and hedges out of your comments and meetings, out of your speeches, out of the way that you talk to your partner. And I think that's a mistake. I don't think we should be judging language as strong or weak. I think what we should be conveying is that language should be clear and it should be caring, ideally. And Alison Fergale's book, Likeable Badass, is such a good encapsulation of how to do that effectively.
1:01:54And I think you actually modeled some of what she recommends in the book in the way that you asked for your raise. So that was my first reaction. The other thing that I'm just left thinking about is I think we, no, maybe not.
1:02:15Brené Brown:Oh, I love this. I love your thinking in real time. It's like downloading learnings right now. Buffering. It's buffering. I love it. The little wheel is spinning and I changed my mind about where I was going to land. But no, I'm just going back to the beginning where you talked about invisible armies and bullshit disclaimers. And I think striving to make our armies as visible as possible and making sure our disclaimers are not bullshit, but they're heartfelt is something we can check before we use them. As opposed to having this, you can't ever have an invisible army. You can't ever have a disclaimer.
1:02:54What I took out of this conversation is how nuanced that is. and how there's a time and a place for each of those. And there are also ways in which they can be used manipulatively and counterproductively. I think that represents my takeaways.
1:03:13Brené Brown:I really had some big takeaways from our conversation today. Personal takeaway for me that was hard is how easily I get hooked when people do not take responsibility for the language they use and the impact it has on other people. The second one is how frustrated I get when I have to do the lift of holding people accountable for not taking responsibility. There's a theme here. Three, I think a hedge, a disclaimer, representation of other people's opinions. I'm not going to call them an invisible army because I have such a negative connotation around that, but just the representation of what you're seeing in other people.
1:03:59I think for me, the bottom line is care, thoughtfulness, and is it aligned with how
1:04:12Brené Brown:you really feel? You can never make something effective that's manipulative and not aligned with really, I think, what you're sensing or feeling. I think that's very, very difficult because I think above all else, no matter what we're hearing, we are doing an authenticity check on people all the time. And I just think the emotional baggage from a lot of the work that women have to do about really often making people feel good about their own mediocrity while making ourselves small kills us. And so literally and spiritually and morally and every other way. So I think that was a big learning. I love the conversation.
1:04:53Brené Brown:I appreciate it. And I don't always love it when you pump the brakes, but I did not find myself flying through the windshield on this one. It was more of that thing that your mom and dad did when you were little and you were riding in the front seat where they just kind of put their arm out on the brake pump. I do think my own argument would say it's not an all or nothing. it's about alignment and nuance and care and i just want to tell for people listening don't think that this came easy to me if i have the right words i practice every hard conversation i'm going to have with someone with a coach i you know i've been working on this in a lot of different ways therapy coaching practice discipline for 20 years and so the careful use of language is, it's a practice.
1:05:44Brené Brown:Would you agree? I didn't even realize I pumped on the brakes. Yeah, because I mean the name, it's so interesting. Yeah, because of the name of this subchapter in Strong Ground is Beware of Invisible Armies and Bullshit Disclaimers. Like it is, it's pretty sweeping. Well, I don't think it's sweeping at all. I think that, I think the invisible modifier, we clarified what - Yes, that's true. acceptable versus unacceptable invisibility is, right? But you already had a modifier in there and then bullshit disclaimers. I'm defending non-bullshit disclaimers and you are too. That's it. Let's go. That was fun.
1:06:23Brené Brown:See you next time.
1:06:40We'll see you next time.
From the publisher
Brené and Adam discuss the power — and peril — of the words we choose. They dive into two Machiavellian communication tools that often do more harm than good: the "Invisible Army" and "BS Disclaimers". Brené explains why leading with “we” or “but” often comes across as requesting permission to escape accountability, which ultimately sacrifices trust more than anything. Adam explores how these tools can sometimes serve as survival strategies in toxic cultures, leading to a conversation on psychological safety, groupthink, and why precision of language is more important than ever — especially in a world that still judges based on gender and identity.
You can find The Curiosity Shop on YouTube and Instagram (@thecuriosityshop).
0:00 - Introduction
1:10 - The Invisible Army
15:23 - Speaking Up and Pluribus
21:26 - ‘But’ or Escaping Accountability?
40:59 - Responsibility Versus Accountability
46:22 - Judgment Based on Gender and Identity
1:01:55 - Takeaways From Today’s Episode
Armored Versus Daring Leadership, Part 2 of 2 - Brené Brown, 2021, Dare to Lead (Podcast)
Getting credit for proactive behavior: Supervisor reactions depend on what you value and how you feel - Grant et al., 2009, Personnel Psychology
Plur1bus - Gilligan et al., 2025 - Present, Sony Pictures; Apple TV+ (TV series)
Does Performance Improve Following Multisource Feedback? A Theoretical Model, Meta-Analysis, and Review of Empirical Findings - Smither et al., 2005, Personnel Psychology
Feedback effectiveness: Can 360-degree appraisals be improved? - DeNisi et al., 2000, Academy of Management Perspectives
What Makes a 360-Degree Review Successful? -
Zenger and Folkman, 2020, Harvard Business Review
The bullshit asymmetry [sic]: the amount of energy needed to refute bullshit is an order of magnitude bigger - Brandolini, A., 2013, Twitter
The power of powerless speech: The effects of speech style and task interdependence on status conferral - Fragale, 2006, Organizational Behavior and Human Decision Processes
How Can Women Escape the Compensation Negotiation Dilemma? Relational Accounts Are One Answer - Bowles et al., 2013, Psychology of Women Quarterly
Likeable Badass: How Women Get the Success They Deserve - Fragale, 2024, Doubleday
Strong Ground: The Lessons of Daring Leadership, the Tenacity of Paradox, and the Wisdom of the Human Spirit - Brené Brown, 2025, Random House
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