Can We Build an “Us” Without a “Them”? with John Green

21:22You don't have the friend for 50 years. And so it's really, really hard. And how much harder in a world where the injustice and suffering are so front and center for us.

21:34Brené Brown:I think that's true. And I think one of the things that came up in a lot of the research that we were doing is that perspective is a function of experience. And so to have to navigate life without understanding how the shoes fit or how the friendships are going to go, you don't have that experience to lend. like asking kids to have perspective is almost a cruel thing right because you don't have the experience to understand that the fact that you got the locker under your greatest op in seventh grade like have some perspective kid no you don't that that is their world yeah i mean that's why i love writing about young people is because there's an intensity to doing all that stuff for the first time that when it's absolutely unprecedented, that you just can't have perspective.

22:33You can't have any distance from the story. You can't have any sense that you're looking back because you're not, you know, there's nothing to look back on yet. And so I really love the ways in which when we do something for the first time, it doesn't just feel unprecedented in our lives. It feels unprecedented in like all of human history. Like the second time you fall in love, you're like, this is great. This is amazing. It's a little bit like the first time. The first time you fall in love, you're like, wow.

23:04Brené Brown:You know what? And it's, you know, that I think this is something about your books that very few people, if any, can grab onto. Like you reach through people's bodies and grab their hearts and give them a good squeeze in a way that I'm like, fuck you, John Green, just to be honest. But let me tell you what I think is wild is, I swear I wasn't going to cry. the first time you watch your kid get their heart broken.

23:41You know, that's not something that's inside of your personal history

23:49Brené Brown:because you've had your heart broken. But watching your kid get their heart broken, you know what it feels like to not make the team. To watch your kid not make the team and walk in the back door and collapse on the floor. Like, and I just was wondering at what age would I get to the seconds of everything for a little salvation, but it hasn't happened yet. So do you know what I mean? Totally. It is the worst kind of empathic distress because you know what the heartbreak feels like. You remember what it was like the first time you went through it. And you're watching your kid who you're supposed to protect, go through this, and you feel totally helpless to do anything about it.

24:36It's awful. And you've been told as a parent that your whole job, and you feel as a parent that your whole job is to try to save them from suffering, to try to save them from discomfort, and there's just nothing you can do, you know? And the desire to say, like, well, one day you'll remember this as, you know, a pretty minor setback in the road is there, but that's, of course, the absolute wrong thing to do because that minimizes what is for them the most profound pain imaginable. Yeah, parenting, man, is so much harder than I ever thought it would be, but also way more interesting than I ever thought it would be.

25:20Brené Brown:You know, it's interesting. You know who really helped me with that? And I don't know that I've done it. I don't know that I've executed against the Buddhist wisdom very well, but it's been helpful is Pema Chodron talked about compassion, having the ability to sit in the darkness with others. And so one of the things I always worked with my therapist when, you know, even now with my kids is don't rush to flip on the light, sit with them in the darkness. But that goes against every parental instinct that I have. Right. You know, just to sit with them in the dark. Yeah, I remember before I was a writer my first life, I was a chaplain at a children's hospital and thought I was going to become an Episcopal minister.

26:03And my chaplaincy supervisor said, don't just do something, stand there. It's profound. Wow. I mean, what a great metaphor for what it means to be supportive of somebody else.

26:20Brené Brown:yeah it reminds me of Iko Bathia was we had her on the podcast a couple of weeks ago or we had a recording of a coaching session she did with me at a conference and she said coaching is in the being not the doing

26:35Brené Brown:yeah and I didn't know we shared in common I have to say I didn't know we shared in common the Episcopal priest path which I have thought about my entire life it's not too late Brene Second career, baby. You know, I deliberately didn't mention that. I was avoiding the topic because I didn't want you to to nerd out on Episcopalian plans. No, I think that I have maybe perhaps burned that bridge, but I still run a back burner film of it every now and then. Yeah, it's the big sliding doors moment of my life. But after chaplaincy, I just couldn't see myself working from, I just couldn't do it. It's too hard.

27:12Brené Brown:I never got to the sliding door moment, but I can't imagine that being on the platform where that sliding door opened and closed, being in a children's hospital. Jesus. Yeah, it was really hard. I mean, I was only 22, so I didn't know what I didn't know. But, you know, I was conscious of the fact that it wasn't nearly as hard for me as it was for the people I was trying to accompany. But it was still pretty, pretty hard. Yeah, but John, you do yourself a disservice when you describe it as a sliding doors moment. because you are a chaplain to all of your readers. You're a chaplain to all of your viewers and listeners, right?

27:48You're doing the same kind of accompanying work by telling stories and sharing experiences that other people can relate to and see themselves in and often find solace and wisdom in. I'm often left reeling that, ah, John Green again made me feel something deeply that I normally just prefer to think deeply about. Hmm. Foiled. That is, that is your, I'm, it's so good that you know that about yourself, Adam.

28:19Brené Brown:I want to personally thank you, John Green. No, no, Brene's thanking you for it. And I'm saying, screw you for doing it to me. And she, she appreciates that you do it for me. Hey friends, Olivia from OLLI. Between new routines and the ultimate group project known as parenting, you need science-backed solutions that work with your life. That's where Oli comes in. Start your mornings off right with Maltese made to support nutrition and immune health. Choose from our lineup of gut-supporting probiotics, and we've got occasional sleep support to help the whole fan chase their big dreams. Head back to class with the number one gummy supplement brand.

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29:32When you're 7-Eleven's hottest fire chicken sandwich, people think you're intense. Well, yeah, I'm hot! So, yeah, intense. Want to see if you can handle the heat? Then try me. With pickles or spicy mayo and jalapenos. Oh, and it's all just$4.99. That's a deal almost as hot as I am. Almost? Sweets? No. Spicy? See for yourself. $4.99 and only at 7-Eleven.

30:01You know, this whole discussion of young adults and the difficulty of being under stress and pressure in the world we live in, this actually brings me back to the World Cup. Because the whole world is watching not just players in their 20s and 30s, but some teenagers, too, who are on stage. And I know Brene and I were both blown away by the open discussions we saw of mental health throughout the World Cup, how freely players talked about going to therapy and seeking help. And we would be remiss if we did not talk about this. Yeah, it's a huge shift, very different from when I was a kid. I mean, I was diagnosed fairly early with depression when I was a teenager and went to therapy and started taking medication and stuff.

30:52And that was very radical for the 1990s. It was essential for my survival. And I'm very, very grateful that I got diagnosed when I did, but it was also really rare. And now it's great to see, especially these young people who so many young people look up to talking about it openly and saying, I go to therapy and talking about why and talking about the benefits that they experience. I will say that it sort of shines a light for me on the fact that access to mental health care is still really dependent upon privilege. These are people who have the money to go to therapy, which a lot of folks don't, but I really commend them for talking about it so openly.

31:35Who can imagine the pressure of taking a penalty kick in the World Cup? I couldn't even get the ball over the line without a goalkeeper in the goal. And so I think the courage that takes is something we do really need to credit and celebrate. Right.

31:53Brené Brown:In prepping for this, I tried to pull as many of the references that I could of players who spoke openly from Jude Bellingham to Torres on the Spain team. People really saying, I see a therapist. I almost I almost quit the game until I saw a therapist. Really? There's just no one I wanted to talk about this more than with you, John, for a lot of reasons. And I'm going to try to do probably a terrible job of bringing this back to tuberculosis everywhere. But I thought there was a really big thread there. And this is kind of the thread. So we have these players that have 30, 40, 50 million followers talking openly about help-seeking, openly about mental health issues.

32:41Brené Brown:So then my question became, does that help? And I go into the research and find that it helps with awareness, but not really. It doesn't help change behaviors because what actually changes behaviors is a frictionless path to help. Access. Access. Yes. And this is where I get into tuberculosis everywhere is because, give me the line so I don't murder it about the cure exists where the illness isn't. Yeah. The cure is where the disease is not and the disease is where the cure is not. Right. And how much of this is about, not that we don't know how to help, but the political will to help? Yeah. Access, privilege.

33:36Brené Brown:I mean, I just saw a through line from your book there. Do you see it at all? Here's what we know. Like, we know that even in really well-funded campaigns around mental health that involve celebrities and athletes, a year after those campaigns stop, there's almost negligible difference because when people do pick up the phone, there's not a frictionless path. There's no access. Yeah. Do you see what I'm trying to draw the connection? Oh, absolutely. I mean, a couple years ago, I had a mental health crisis, and I called the doctor, the psychiatrist, and the office was like, what do you want to do?

34:11And I was like, I don't know. I'm in the middle of a mental health crisis. I don't know what I want to do. Tell me what I'm supposed to do. Tell me what to do. Tell me who do I see and when. Help me. And if I can't navigate that system with all the good fortune that I have, How can we ask other people to navigate it? With tuberculosis, we have the cure. We've had the cure since the 1950s. We know how to cure the disease. And we basically choose not to cure it by preventing people from accessing the cure, making it too expensive, making it so that people have to pay for travel to come get their medicine every single day rather than once a month, things like that.

34:54And those structures that we have built, they're human-built structures, make it so that there isn't that frictionless access. I think that's so true. That's what we need to cure both the mental health crisis and the tuberculosis crisis. It's such a compelling connection. And it makes me think, John, there's a sequel waiting to be written to everything is tuberculosis, which is everything is access. Everything is opportunity. Wow. Everything is opportunity. That's so true. To the point of having been a low-functioning young adult, I was given all kinds of help when I was a low-functioning young adult so that I could become sort of a medium functioning middle-aged guy right and if i hadn't had all that help like i remember one time my boss came to me and i was working a magazine and my boss came to me and she said the the hr people say you're cashing your checks at the grocery store and i was like yeah how else you gonna do it and she was like well you need a bank account john and i was like yeah but i don't have an id so i don't have a bank account and she was like all right well i guess we're going to go get you an ID during our lunch break.

35:59And she took me and we got an ID and then she took me to the bank the next day and we got a bank account. And like, I say we did that because there was no way I could do it by myself. I was too, I couldn't do that. I just wasn't, I wasn't up for it. I didn't know how to navigate that system. I didn't, you know, I just didn't know. And if it hadn't been for that person, I would have kept cashing my checks at the grocery store and paying, you know, whatever, 10, 15 % off the top. And I just, I think so much is about frictionless access. So much of life, not just healthcare. So much of navigating the systems that we have built around everything.

36:37Brené Brown:And I love the fact that you're pointing out it's systemic because you had someone that walked you to get the ID that then is required to go to the bank and then is required to do this and then is required to set up the direct deposit. And then, you know, like you just keep using the word systems. We have to take responsibility for the fact that we've built that which makes it impossible. Exactly. You know, the other thing that I would feel ethically remiss to not call out from this research was really shocking to me in addition to frictionless access is in sports specifically, starting young, coaches are the answer and the biggest obstacle to mental health help.

37:29Brené Brown:So when you have a coach that constantly talks about it as important, normalizes it, there is help seeking. the majority of players, and this is from studies done across different sports and the Olympics, it is the number one people that athletes want to keep the information away from is their coach. And it's the number one person that makes it accessible and reduces friction if they're willing to do it. And so if you're out there and you're a coach and you're listening, which I know we do have a lot of sports coaches that listen because Adam and I do a lot of work in that area. It's a big responsibility and a big opportunity.

38:15Brené Brown:You are the biggest barrier and you are the greatest hope. I think it's really important to name that. Yeah. Yeah, John, this makes me wonder about your middle school soccer or football coach. You said you realized you were a motivational tool earlier. But I also wonder if you were something bigger than just that. if you were also an opportunity for the team to talk about how talent is not the only thing that matters or what we're all going to do to support each other. Yeah. I don't know how much you remember about that coach, but I'm just wondering if there are dots to connect to what Brene was saying and that formative experience of yours.

38:57He was certainly not a coach who would tell you to seek mental health.

39:05Nicely done, John. He was a good coach. He was a good coach. He was a good coach in a lot of ways. But I think the sort of positive spin on what he was saying is there's this great basketball player, TJ McConnell, for the Indianapolis Pacers. And he's known as a guy who doesn't have the size. He doesn't have the speed. He doesn't have this. But he plays really hard. And what he says is playing hard is a skill. If it wasn't, everyone would do it. And I did play really, really hard. Like I jumped for every ball. I played hard. I still play hard. And I think maybe the positive spin is he was saying, look, playing hard is a skill and this guy has it and the rest of you should try to learn it.

39:49Brené Brown:I mean, we've all seen teams that have a ton of talent. No glue, no effort. As a sports really maniac, I would never trust a team full of talent and no glue and no hard ethic skill. Yeah, that's why they need me in the locker room, Brene, the glue guy. It's not too late for me. It's not too late. Pick me, Potch. I'm ready. I'm ready. Put him in. I was going to try to recruit you to the Sixers, but then LeBron just died, so I feel like we're full. You're covered. All right. Should we rapid fire, John? Great. Yeah, I think it's lightning round time. You want to start? No, you start. Okay. John, what's one thing you're deeply curious about right now?

40:33Cholera. I'm really interested in cholera, this disease that continues to kill over 100 ,000 people a year, even though it's been eliminated from most rich countries. Wow. Wow. You know you're an Oregon Trail generation member, right? That's right. That's right. But it's not just an Oregon Trail problem, Adam. It's a present tense problem. So I'm very interested in cholera and water supply in general. like it's another system where we're seeing the failures really laid bare. Wow.

41:05Brené Brown:I mean, globally, really scary. Water. Water is such a big deal. And public health and water, the intersection of those two things. Exactly. Yeah. And that's not just a problem. You don't have to go to a poor country to see challenges with underfunded public health care systems. No. And I'll leave that there. And it's getting worse with this administration. I mean, like my husband's a pediatrician. And when we were talking about the recent outbreak of, tell me what it is. The lettuce one. What is it, Adam? Cyclops. We all know. Everybody knows. You can't even bring up measles with my husband. You just have to bring it up and run for your life.

41:46Brené Brown:But, you know, what I would say, like, tell me what's going on with this lettuce. And he's like, don't worry. It's not funded anymore. But there are two guys on Reddit who have it figured out. And, you know, he's just so frustrated about the simultaneous, the growing crisis juxtaposed with the just slashing of funding. Yeah. No, it's terrible. Hard. All right, my activist friends, I got to rein this in for the rapid fire round. Go. All right, John, here's our next quick question. You've probably been to curiosity shops at various points in your life. If you got to design the wildest, wackiest, weirdest curiosity shop, what would you put in it?

42:26It already exists. It's the world's largest collection of the world's smallest versions of the world's largest objects. So this person will take the world's largest ball of twine and recreate it on a very small scale and then sell that. That is brilliant. The world's largest collection of the world's smallest versions of the world's largest objects. I mean, chef's kiss.

42:52Brené Brown:No, chef's kiss, because I've never heard anything more John Green in my life. I know, I know. So true. I mean, if you were a thing, you would be that thing.

43:07Brené Brown:Okay, what is one thing you're deeply grateful for right now? Oh, my family. My family. Yeah, just the regular rhythm of summertime with the family is pretty special. and I know that it's fleeting. My son is 16 now, so we only got a couple more years of it like this, so I'll miss it. Oh my God. I'm not going to say anything because it's just going to be sad, but it's like... Don't spoil it for me, Brene. No, I'm just saying don't blink. I know. I know. Well, it's going to happen anyway. It's going to go so fast. It already has gone so fast. Yeah. I don't want to take us on a tangent here, but anticipatory nostalgia is something that was never warned is part of watching your kids grow up.

43:51Totally. My wife, the first time we ever had lunch, we went to the same high school and I was talking about high school. And then I was talking about when my book was going to come out because I just finished a draft of my first book and just sold it. And my wife's now wife at the time friend said, imagining the future is a kind of nostalgia. And I was like, oh my God, You're so cool.

44:17Brené Brown:I mean, she was coming on hard for you. She was, I mean, look, she met you and she worked that line for like hours and she knew that would seal the deal because again, John Green is an adjective in our house. That is a John Green seduction line. If I've ever heard one, it was very effective. In fact, I put it in, I put it in my first novel. I went home and put it in the book and then asked her later if I could use it. That's your love language, dude. It is. Give me lines for my books. John, I hope you proposed. That was so good. I hope you proposed to Sarah the next day. No, no, no. It was a little while longer, Adam.

45:00I was a little more cautious than that.

45:03Brené Brown:Plus, he had to gather more quotes, obviously. She was killing it. Okay. I have to ask this rapid fire because I always get anxious when you've got a new book coming out. I just have to like gear up, let my therapist know I'm going into a John Green period. She's like, great, I'm short on cash. Tell us about the new book. You got to tell us. Yeah. So the new book is called Hollywood Ending. It's my first book for adults, my first novel for adults. And it's about two people in their early 20s who are in a movie together. And the movie starts to get a lot of attention. It's about the last year of Andy Warhol's life.

45:40And it starts to get a lot of attention. And it gets a lot of attention. Their lives also start to blow up in ways that are really intoxicating, but also really difficult. And it's really about how we survive trauma, how we survive what we need to survive, and how we find the love that helps us survive it.

45:57Brené Brown:Can I ask one question about the comma? Yeah. Yeah. So there's a comma in the title, Hollywood comma ending. I was like, screw you, John Green. it's set in 2019 when i do think hollywood was comma ending a little bit or a certain kind of hollywood was comma ending but also yes it is meant to be there to complicate the idea of a hollywood ending that is so you dude it is and having done an early peek at the the beginning of the book uh as i resist the temptation to read the whole thing instead of preparing for this conversation. I mean, it is vintage John Green. It's for adults. It's for young adults.

46:36And I already have tons of questions about the characters that I'm not going to ask you right now. What I'm going to ask you instead is you're going to do a big fall tour for Hollywood ending. We'll put the locations and dates in the show notes for any of our fans who want to come see you in action, which I can say from experience, it's a very special thing to live through. And John, you have a remarkable ability to create the kind of collective effervescence that now all of us are missing post-World Cup. Thank you, Adam. You've earned it. You're about to embark on this tour. What are you most excited for?

47:07You know, every time you're in a room like that, that's the only time that group of people will ever be together. And it's so fleeting. It's so beautiful. That's what I'm looking forward to, is being in those literally unique, unprecedented rooms and talking about stuff that matters with people I care about.

47:32Brené Brown:So beautiful. Thank you so much for coming to the Curiosity Shop. Could you even build, Adam, a Curiosity Shop that didn't have John Green in it? I mean, I don't think so. Like, if you were a shop, that's what you would be. Oh, thank you. Yeah. Just such a pleasure to meet you. It's so weird that we've never met, but I'm glad we have now. Great pleasure to meet you, too. I can report to all the Brene fans out there that Brene is just as lovely as you would expect. And so is Adam. So what a joy to be with y 'all today. And what a gift both of your work is in my life. So thank you. Right back at you.

48:09And we can't put you in a curiosity shop, John, because too many people would line up and you wouldn't be able to get in the door. It's true. It's kind. Thanks, John. Thanks, y 'all. Hey, and go Liverpool this fall. Go Liverpool. We're going to do something extraordinary this year. I can feel it. I'm so ready.

48:52Stock up on Nolly.com today. These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease. Right now, get up to 15 % off select storage solutions. Put heavy-duty HDX totes to good use, protecting what's important to you. The solid, impact-resistant design prevents cracking. And the clear base and sides make items easy to find, even when the totes are stacked. Find select shelving and tote storage up to 15 % off at the Home Depot to organize every room in your home. From your garage to your attic. Visit HomeDepot.com.

49:26How doers get more done. When you're 7-Eleven's hottest fire chicken sandwich, people think you're intense. Well, yeah, I'm hot! Oh, yeah, intense. Want to see if you can handle the heat? Then try me. With pickles or spicy mayo and jalapenos. Oh, and it's all just$4.99. That's a deal almost as hot as I am. Almost? Sweet? No. Spicy? See for yourself. $4.99 and only at 7-11. Valid through 8-25-46. Participating stores only while supplies last visit. Store for full terms. How much do you love John Green?

50:01Brené Brown:On a scale from 1 to 10-11. Yeah. Off the scale. Same. It's not fair that he's real. No, we could have gone down the Episcopal priest route. Like, it's really good you reigned us in. I really tried to hide that. I was like, oh no, they could go there. It all makes sense to me now. You know, when I was prepping for this, everything I read was like, oh, this makes sense. Oh, this makes sense. I'm like, this makes sense. All of it makes sense. There's one thing I have to quibble with, though, which is he called himself a medium-functioning adult. If John Green is medium-functioning, the rest of us are in a lot of trouble.

50:33Brené Brown:Oh, my God. I hated every second when he said that. I was like, I can't rank against that dude. If that's where you are, I'm in trouble. I feel like he has all these identities that could each be a full-time job. And he's the kindest, most thoughtful, most creative person on earth doing that thing. And then he's doing several other of them too. How do you do it all? What I think is interesting about his work is his ability to, it's that great definition of creativity that I love, the ability to connect the seemingly unconnectable. Do you know what I mean? Yes. Yeah, I just think we were lucky to get to talk to him about so many different things.

51:15Brené Brown:And, you know, as a, I don't know what this means, and I get criticized for saying this a lot, but as a reluctant public person, the Hollywood ending book, I think, is going to be tough. And people are like, there's no such thing as a reluctant public person. But I would say you're kind of one, too, right? Very much so. Yeah, I think we both are in different ways. like maybe by reluctant I think I don't get a lot out of that part of my work but I'm invested in my work having impact and then that means sometimes I have to be the vessel for my work but I'm not cut out for it because I'm a little bit tender-hearted and private and I just don't know how to do it very well sometimes but I'm excited for Hollywood ending I think it's going to be a tough read for those of us in that position or for any of us trying to I saw something this weekend And that for some reason tied me straight to John's new book from Kate Bowler that said, thinking about those of y 'all who are spending your time being grateful for the moments you're in, not trying to capture them for an audience who will be grateful for them.

52:24Brené Brown:And I was just like, wow. When he said all of us are public people to some degree right now, it made me think of that quote from Kate Bowler. So yeah, just being in the moments and not capturing them for an audience, but being in them, it's powerful. Spot on. I read a paper a few years ago that actually tried to document this empirically where I think if I remember correctly, people were randomly assigned to be in an experience and either take a photo or a selfie or not. And the people who captured it actually enjoyed the experience less. They literally took themselves out of it in order to preserve the memory for the future and miss out on the present.

53:04And I remember reading that research and thinking, what is the point of capturing it for the future if there's no emotion felt during it? It might as well be a picture of somebody else because you weren't there.

53:15Brené Brown:I'm kind of breathless about that. And I know intuitively it's true. Can I tell you a quick parenting story? Please. I always love parenting stories, especially from you. Ellen and I were at Herman Park, which is kind of the medical center in Houston. And I used to pick the kids up from school all the time and take them either to the train that went around the zoo at Herman Park, or sometimes we would feed the ducks. And what are those things called that you ride? Were you the bicycle and these little boats? Oh, the pedal boats. Pedal boat, yeah. And we were in the pedal boat, and it was just a random day after school.

53:49Brené Brown:And I looked over, and her face was really scrunched up. And I said, Ellen, are you okay? And she didn't answer. And immediately I was like, Ellen, Ellen, are you okay? And I wasn't pedaling, we were just floating. And I said, what's going on? And she said, I'm good. I'm just making a picture memory. And I said, what? And she said, I'm just making a picture memory of right now. So when things are harder later, I can remember this. and it was so striking to me that sometimes if I'm in a moment and I want to get out my phone, I'll just say, just make a picture, close your eye and make a picture memory, you know?

54:31Brené Brown:And so when you talk about that research, I think there's a difference between bringing out a device and capturing it because inherently in that you're either thinking about an audience that's going to see that picture, but a picture memory sometimes is even more powerful to me. Does that make sense? I don't know how to describe it. It does. It does. Oh, I love that image so much. I want to take a picture of that right now. Just close your eyes and capture that. I think, yeah, I mean, you're not, your interaction isn't now happening through a device. It's actually happening in your head and your heart, which makes it much more meaningful.

55:12And - Oh, it's beautiful. And the fact that it's not physically or digitally preserved, I think that's part of what makes it pointed, that only you can conjure it.

55:23Brené Brown:Oh, it's the conjuring. It's beautiful. All right, before we head off, let me ask you first, what are you taking away from the conversation and what are you going to keep thinking about? I think my biggest takeaway is that I need to find more shared projects for some of the relationships that I care about. That right now, we're kind of catching up on each other's lives as opposed to rooting for the same thing or being part of the same thing. And I want to work on that. What am I thinking about? I think we need a whole body of research on the question of how do you build an us without a them? I think that is maybe the question of our time.

56:04How about you?

56:05Brené Brown:Oh, that's my takeaway. My takeaway, I have two takeaways. One is how do you build an us without a them? And how do you define an us without a them? And because I think the defining is part of the problem. And then my second one is no matter what we do when we're trying to help people, we always need to think about frictionless access. Yes. You know, like it's such a big part that we can bring into awareness, But if awareness is not followed by the ability to action something with minimum friction, awareness fades. So important. And paradoxically, it also brings to mind that line that John relayed about don't just do something, stand there.

56:51Brené Brown:Yes. You and I are both, we have such a bias toward action. We like to do things. We like to solve. We like to fix. and I'm going to hear that echoing in my head every time my kids bring me a problem. Don't just do something, stand there. And I think with your prompt, it's stand there in the dark. Yeah. Don't turn on the light yet. And that's still to this day, ooh, I have to fight a lot of a fixer in me to do it. But it's really, I think it's teaching our kids, especially how to be in pain is a gift, but ooh, it's a tough one. John Green, thank you for introducing us and thank you for bringing him on the Curiosity Shop.

57:32Brené Brown:What a gift. Always. The Curiosity Shop is produced by Brene Brown Education and Research Group and Granted Productions. You can subscribe to the Curiosity Shop on YouTube or follow in your favorite podcast app. We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Discover more award-winning shows at podcast.voxmedia.com. Class is now in session and the UPS Store is here to help you ace arriving on campus. Our certified packing experts can pack everything you need, from desktops to decor. Plus, when you pack and ship with us, you get our exclusive pack and ship guarantee. Your items arrive safe, or your money back.

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