Courageous Leadership as a Daily Practice

0:00Brené Brown:Hi, everyone. It's Brené, and we are on a summer hiatus for the next five weeks. While we're taking a break, we are revisiting some conversations that we really love. We think you're going to enjoy them. This week's episode is a conversation that Adam and I had at Authors at Wharton. It first aired on his podcast, Rethinking. I hope you enjoy it. You'll see a couple of times he's got me on the hot seat. I got a real good taste of what it's going to be like to be in his classroom. He tried to drill me down, but fear not, I drilled back. Enjoy. This show is brought to you by GEICO. Trust is foundational.

0:40It's at the heart of every relationship, every decision, and every leap worth taking. And it's something you build over time through everyday consistency, follow through, and care. GEICO gets that. It's why they've spent decades showing up for their customers again and again. with real savings and genuinely great customer service from people who truly care. Trust is everything, and it feels good to have it. It feels good to Geico. Welcome to The Curiosity Shop, a show from the Fox Media Podcast Network.

1:16Brené Brown:If you do not care for and are able to connect with the people you lead, you will never see performance, period. Hey, everyone. It's Adam Graham. Welcome back to Rethinking, my podcast with Ted on the science of what makes us tick. I'm an organizational psychologist, and I'm taking you inside the minds of fascinating people to explore new thoughts and new ways of thinking.

1:43Brene Brown is a researcher and storyteller who's changed the way I think about vulnerability, shame, empathy, and leadership. She hosts the podcast Dare to Lead, where I've loved being a recurring guest. And she's given some of the most popular TED Talks of all time and written six number one New York Times bestselling books. I hosted Brene for a live conversation in the Authors at Wharton series to talk about her brand new book, Strong Ground. Brene Brown, so excited to have you at Wharton.

2:09Brené Brown:Thank you. Nice to be here. She delivers a powerful message about courageous leadership that the world desperately needs. and our back and forth made my brain buzz and my heart tingle in the best possible ways. So I was at an event last week in New York. Someone came up to me and after having asked a brilliant question said, you're my second favorite author. And I was very flattered and then I was like, wait a minute, who's the first? And the answer was Brene Brown.

2:47I was just glad to be on the list.

2:51Brené Brown:Well, first of all, people are laughing so hard at us. At us, not with us. Not with us, not at us. Literally, someone said, I love the podcast. I think of y 'all as smart people, and it's so weird to watch you change your minds. Isn't that what learning is? To me, the most joyful thing is learning, the pursuit, the passionate pursuit of mastery. like really having a problem to solve or a strategy to figure out that you almost don't want to figure it out because trying to solve it is so much fun and that's so uniquely human I just I'm wondering why that's fallen out of favor a little bit I'm wondering why the value has shifted from courage is being a knower instead of courage is being a learner.

3:44Brené Brown:That's not going to serve us right now. When I talk to senior leaders all over the world and they're saying, boy, it's really problematic when people come in and they act like they know everything, what I'm looking for are candidates who have exquisite questions and are really hungry to solve the problem. And so I think we have to shift the thinking there a lot. I'm inclined to agree with you on that. And asking questions is one of the things that you do best. So I think for those who have not been following Brene's work since you were four, I think when I first became acquainted with your work, it was when you were introducing yourself as a narrative researcher, as somebody who studied stories.

4:22And I was just blown away by both the breadth and the depth of the questions that you ask people. And I've always wondered how you come up with your questions. You just said, hey, asking great questions is a skill. Can you teach it to us?

4:36Brené Brown:I can and I can't I will definitely not take credit for it. I will definitely go back to Barney Glaser, Glaser and Strauss. Grounded theory. Grounded theory. So I'm a grounded theory researcher and Anselm and Strauss were trying to develop a methodology for studying children who were dying. And back when they were trying to do it in the early 60s, there was a pact when a child was dying that the nurses, physicians, and parents, and religious folks, clergy, would not tell the child they're dying. They would keep that information from the child. So Glazer and Strauss were trying to figure out how can we talk to these children about their experiences when we can't let them know what's happening.

5:28Brené Brown:So they came up with this idea of just a spill question, which became the real heart of grounded theory, which is, tell me about your illness. And the children would say, I'm dying, and it must be really terrible, because not even my parents will tell me about it. Yeah, so in grounded theory, we start with the main concern of the population, and then the theory we develop is how the population is continually resolving that concern. Does that make sense? Yep. And how we continually resolve those concerns is the basic social process that becomes a grounded theory. Is this too nerdy? I don't know.

6:13We have to ask the audience.

6:14Brené Brown:I mean, who am I asking here? So to me, the questions I ask are really about getting to what your main concern is, not what I think it is or what the world portrays it as. That's the way I work today. So if I go into an organization and I'll spend three weeks just asking questions, I'll just look at a CEO and say, what's on your heart and mind? If you sit up straight in bed at four o 'clock in the morning, what are you worried about? And then that's what I'm trying to resolve. Yes, I'm listening to investor calls. And yes, I'm looking at data, performance data and engagement data. But what I really want to know is what is keeping you up at night and how do we go after that?

7:00I would say the typical CEO I encounter is not that excited to talk about the thing that they're stressed about. How do you break through that barrier?

7:09Brené Brown:Fifth generation Texan. You know, why am I here? If you don't want to talk about it, I got shit to do and places to be so we can either talk about it or I can go home. You know, like I don't get it. But I think for me, I often talk about playing to win versus playing not to lose. I'm not everybody's cup of tea, as you can imagine. But I just say, look, what's more important to you to protect your ego or to win? And if you want to win, we're going to have to have these hard conversations. and if you can't have these hard conversations and you continue to play not to lose let me tell you what that looks like both on a field and in an organization playing not to lose is always losing how do you adapt that to the MBA and undergrad students in the room so it's harder for them to go to their boss or their boss's boss and say hey do you want to succeed here or do you want to protect your fragile ego?

8:11Brené Brown:I would definitely send that via text. I think the strategy is actually the same. And I was talking to a recent MBA graduate at UT at McCombs. McCombs has a big program for vets who want to come back and get their MBA. And we were talking about how care for and connection with the people you lead is an irreducible prerequisite of courageous leadership. If you do not care for and are able to connect with the people you lead, you will never see performance, period. You might do well in a very short period of time, but we both know. Like, without genuine care for and connection with, you don't. And so he asked this question.

8:50Brené Brown:He said, you know, I come from a setting in the military where caring for and connecting to is a fairly low bar, which I think is true because we both do work in the military. Like they, even the Air Force has, without deep affection for the troops you lead, we will move the soldier or we will move you. And so he said, that's how I lead, but it's not accepted by my boss or the senior leaders. And I said that I would change the focus of the conversation. Here's how I would do the conversation. I would say, if you work for me, I want us to win. And I want to contribute to the win. Help me understand what that looks like.

9:32Brené Brown:What do you need me to do to win? And then Adam would say, here's what we need to win. We need to reduce churn here. We need to increase growth here. And we've got to solve these two problems here. Then I would do this, always. Can I play back what I think you're saying? Always the playback. Here's what you're saying. We need to reduce churn. We need to grow this thing by 3 % a quarter for the next two quarters. and then we have this problem that we need to solve around supply chain. That's not directly me, but here are the three things I can do to help. And then your boss says, that's exactly right.

10:08Brené Brown:Okay, I'm going to be on it. I want to ask you one thing. I have a way to win with my team that I think makes me the most effective leader and drives the most performance and trust in my team. I'm clear on what you want. I've played it back for you. I need permission to lead my team. That's exactly how I would do it. That's powerful. Can you just accompany a bunch of our students to their jobs when they graduate? No, I don't work for anybody. That's why. But if you're like, oh, is that how leaders talk to each hell? No. Like one out of a thousand people I meet would have that conversation, right?

10:42Brené Brown:Like it's a rare thing. So you know who I go to? This is why we're such a cute couple on the podcast, because I don't remember anybody's name. And I'm like, who's that dude, researcher, Baylor and you're like the first article came out in 1977 try me negotiating FBI Chris Voss never split the difference thank you okay he knows everybody's name I can say the carpet is centered and you're like 15 years of research on carpet centering would show I mean this is why I love talking to you it is really true. It's like you're really good at contextualizing in... we've worked on this. I'm shaking my head at carpets.

11:25Brené Brown:Okay, but you're really good at doing this. Thank you, Brene. You're welcome. Brene told me I was bad at accepting compliments, and a lot of people have given me that feedback, and I take pride in being someone who takes feedback well, and now I'm stuck. I have to say thank you. There's so many things to compliment you about. Enough. Okay, so... Okay, I was doing work with the FBI hostage negotiators because a lot of their work is about emotional resonance, understanding emotion, right? If I had to give one takeaway from Chris's work that I think is really helpful, it's this. Whether hostages or the hostage taker, whether they live or die, often comes down to two words.

12:11Brené Brown:you're the hostage taker and I'm the negotiator for the FBI and you're telling me what's going I'm like shit okay so let me get this right Adam you can never get a fucking break they took your kids your wife left you they shit on you at your job and nothing ever goes your way no matter how hard you work and if you say back to me two words that's right there is a connection now that changes all of the variables about survival. It's a human being. Like we are neurobiologically hardwired to be seen and heard. And that's right is really a big part of being able to play back. So what's missing for, I think, new MBA students, new business students in general, just younger leaders, new people leaders, is the playback.

12:59Brené Brown:So if I say to Adam, so all you really care about, Adam, is me reducing churn. And Adam goes, no. Reducing churn is part of a three-legged stool. I need you to churn, but we have got to have growth. We have to have ARR for three quarters that looks like this. So that part is missing when you're managing up. Does that make sense? It's a really big part of getting clarity. I hear you. I can play back for you accurately what's happening. The other thing I love about this is it's classic motivation theory. I'm thinking about Victor Vroom expectancy theory. So many people, when they try to motivate someone, they project their own motivations onto them as opposed to saying, if I want to motivate you, I've got to know what you value.

13:46That's it. And so by starting the conversation with that leader and asking, what does success look like for you? I'm now in a better position to ask you for what I want because it's aligned with your values and your goals as opposed to at odds with or unrelated to what you care about.

14:02Brené Brown:That's it.

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14:54Brené Brown:It feels good to GEICO. We're going to talk about your new book, Strong Ground. And I think that values are one of the most important parts of this book. You push us all to identify our two core values. As you know, I've been struggling with three, generosity and excellence or integrity. And I would love you to walk us through how to figure out what your values are. Maybe I'll just start by saying, for a long time, I thought about values just as guiding principles. And I said, it's what you care about. And I think that was incomplete. I think it's not just what you care about, it's what you sacrifice for.

15:26One of the ways that I've become clear about what my values are is to look at the things that I give up and why. I saw myself sacrificing time hanging out with my friends to field people's requests and help them. And that made it clear to me, okay, I'm giving up time with this group of people that I really like because I want to make a contribution here. That says to me that being helpful is really important to me. I saw myself in a couple of situations that I regret now, wandering into situations where I thought I was probably going to fail. and I was willing to sacrifice my ego because I really wanted to get better.

16:03And I thought, okay, that's some combination of excellence and integrity. And so I guess my first question for you is, what do you think about this distinction of values aren't just what you care about, they're what you sacrifice for?

16:14Brené Brown:I think I'm going to use it from this split second forward. Okay. I think it's yours. I'll send you a quarter every time I say it. when we were doing the qualitative interviewing of daring leaders who care about performance and culture equally, who care about people and impact, they were so clear and could speak so quickly, and they never had more than one or two core values. And when I would dig in that, they would say, no, that's important to me. But these two are where everything else is forged. Like, yes, I care about a lot of things, but these two values, this is where the rubber hits the road.

16:55Brené Brown:So my two values are faith and courage. And those are two areas where I would be willing to sacrifice and do that on a regular basis. Like, oh, Jesus, I want to hate your guts, but I'm going to sacrifice hating you because I have to find God in everybody's face. And you roll your eyes as you sit. I do. God has told me nothing about enjoying the practice at all. But I am willing to sacrifice a lot of things, including my self-righteousness, for my values. And I think it's a beautiful and a different way of thinking about where things are forged. So when we give people this ginormous list of values, there's the two places where they really struggle the most.

17:38Brené Brown:One, they're like, are we talking about personal values or professional values? I was like, you only have one set, like just your values, you know. And then the other question is like, I need 15. And so we always like circle 15 and then start asking yourself, what two are the home base and the fire for everything else? And we've never had anyone not be able to get there. And we've probably done well, we know we've done it with at least 160 ,000 people, because that's the data we have. Only 160 ,000. Over six years. Yeah. But we know that people get there. But then what's really exciting is that's where they think they leave it.

18:19Brené Brown:And, you know, I'm not a fan of, like, a value not operationalized into behaviors. Neither are you. And that's what most organizations we go into have all the posters and have done none of the work. Like, integrity with an eagle. Ha!

18:38Brené Brown:What does it even mean? And so then we have people operationalize their values into behaviors, find indicator lights when they're out of alignment. So for example, for me, I know I'm out of alignment with my courage value when I'm in resentment, because I'm probably not being brave enough to ask for what I need or want, or I'm not setting a boundary. I'm not being brave in some ways if I'm in resentment. And so that work becomes, it's actually a trick that we do. When we first started doing Dare to Lead work in organizations, the four skill sets of courage have held. They've held through COVID and all the new data.

19:23Tell us what the four are.

19:24Brené Brown:Living into your values, the ability to rumble with vulnerability, meaning to be able to be and uncertainty, risk and exposure, and to stay grounded, emotionally regulated and make good decisions. The ability to build trust with others and self-trust. No one talks about self-trust, which is a big thing, and often the first casualty of failure. And then the last is to be able to reset. Can you be responsible for your own bounce after failure, disappointment and setback? So these are the four skill sets of courage. When we first started teaching it, we taught rumbling with vulnerability first. And the college students in a course that I taught at UT, at the end we asked for feedback and they were like, dude, you need to teach values first.

20:15Brené Brown:I was like, why? We actually, we did the feedback as a class so they could experience saying hard things to me that were productive and respectful and we can say things to each other and they could learn how to be in a hard conversation. And I said, tell me why. And they said, you had to convince us that vulnerability was something we needed to experience and manage. But if you did values first, people would understand intrinsically that if they wanted to live into their values, they would need to be vulnerable and courageous. And you wouldn't have to convince anybody of anything. They're choosing courage.

20:53Brené Brown:They're choosing generosity. They're choosing excellence. If you want those things and you want to live into those things, then diving into uncertainty and risk and exposure is not optional. I love that. You know, it reminds me of an exercise I've been doing for years with students and also with leaders. And I'm going to put you in the hot seat for this one. So, okay, you just mentioned vulnerability. Why is vulnerability important to you? Because my value is courage. If there's no uncertainty, no risk, and no exposure, you're not being that brave. Why is courage important to you?

21:26Brené Brown:Because the word courage in its original definition, cur, meaning heart, and the original definition of courage was to tell the story of who you are with your whole heart. We are nothing without our story. And to not tell it honestly pulls all the meaning out of our lives. So to me, I want a meaningful life and I'm going to have to be brave to do that. Why do you care about having a meaningful life? I'll be failing this fucking class