Leading Under Pressure with Rebecca Lowe

23:20Brené Brown:I had to play pickleball for two hours and then come back. I want to take you to the Arsenal Leeds tie in January 2012. And I want you to walk us through that experience. Okay, so I was hosting the Sideline Desk in 2012. me plus two former professional soccer players for ESPN UK. So for a little while, not anymore, ESPN set up shop in England. So there was an ESPN UK and I had a four-year contract with them to mainly be a sideline reporter, which I did not like, not the story, but also to start to try and do more hosting because that's really what I wanted to do. So this was a game Thierry Henry, ironically, who I just spent my summer with, had returned to Arsenal on loan from the New York Red Bulls.

24:06And this was his first game back. and it was the, I think, third or fourth round of the FA Cup. Big game, 60 ,000 people. 2012, so what's that, 14 years ago. ESPN UK decided to put my desk with my two ex-pros in front of the Leeds fans. And if anyone knows anything, or if they don't, let me explain. Leeds United, great, wonderful, storied English football club. The away fans, as always with a lot of clubs, very, very vocal, can be quite aggressive at times. fans not not my favorite and I've dealt with many many individually I'm sure they're all great as a group of 6 ,000 quite intimidating and the desk was right slap bang in the middle of these fans in front of these fans and from virtually the first moment we went on air the chanting started aimed at me sometimes aimed at the two ex pros next to me um but on the whole aimed at me various sexual chanting things were thrown at me there were coins there were hot dogs thrown in my direction but mainly it was just about being a female standing there doing her job and and all of these awful chanting that just would go on and on and on pre-game was an hour half time and then post-game and my mum was sat at home and she could hear it was coming through the microphones because of course they're all right there so she was texting me are you okay a couple of other people in the industry texting you're right we can hear everything and I think that's I think the saddest thing for me when I look back on it guys is that it washed over me as much as it I mean it wasn't the first time this it all happened I've had I'd had this for years every every ground I'd gone to there was always a chant or someone shouting out about my me my body does she do this does she do that or 6 ,000 of them all chanting the same thing while I've got an earpiece in I'm on live television.

26:00I'm trying to do my job. But I think the saddest thing is when I came off air, one of the ex-pros, Robbie Savage, really lovely guy, he actually put out on Twitter that that wasn't okay tonight. What happened to Rebecca wasn't okay. But that was it. That was it. Nobody else said anything, did anything. I'll never forget that he did that for me. But it didn't, again, it's hard for me to blame my bosses because it never crossed my mind ever to go to them afterwards because it was probably the most loudest one I'd ever experienced and also other people were now seeing it. It never crossed my mind to go to them and say, hi, sorry, that's not okay.

26:37I need some help. We need to think things through a bit better. Is there some security? Is there something we can do? Can we start a campaign? Is there something? But 2012, even though it feels like yesterday, it wasn't. No. No one was starting campaigns for women. It just wasn't a thing. And so I don't really blame them for it. But I also never spoke up. And I suppose when I really think about why didn't I speak up is probably because I thought it would be futile. There wasn't anyone else talking about it. And ultimately, I didn't want to be a problem. I didn't want to be because then they might not give me the next game.

27:11Because they might not give me the next. That's right. So I just took it. So I just took it. And one of the reasons why I left England was that whole toxic environment of English football, which has definitely changed, has definitely changed now, thank goodness. I don't know if it's fully changed, but it has got better because I've spoken to women who work in the industry. But that was pretty horrible. And now, thinking about it now, it's staggering to me that that was just 14 years ago. First of all, so sorry that you had to go through that. I mean, it's just unacceptable. Full stop. Secondly, when our colleagues Ethan Burris and Jim Dietert study this, they find that in order for people to speak up about a situation like that at work, it has to be both safe and worthwhile.

27:55That it's not enough to just take away the fear and say, hey, Rebecca, don't worry. Nothing bad is gonna happen to you if you raise a concern. You also have to believe that this is not an exercise in futility. And so for me, that is a failure of the leadership in the organization that they didn't create a situation and a system and a culture where you knew who to go to, you knew what to say, or ideally, right? Where leaders were actually intervening before you even had to speak up. Yeah, and what's interesting, Adam, though, is I don't even think it bothered them. And not because they weren't great people, because they were great people.

28:32But I don't even think they even had a... There wasn't a system in place. There wasn't a person. It was just part of what happens at Football to Women.

28:42Brené Brown:No, it's just what happens. It's like changing it would be like, what if we play without the ball? Correct. Yeah, like it's that. And, you know, I think it's interesting to bring up because I have to say that some of the allyship that I've experienced, and I talk about this with my husband a lot, some of the allyship that I've experienced, Adam, with you, just because it's an interesting study, us together doing things, because we have similar jobs, similar academic positions. We talk about similar content, and our experiences can be very different. and a lot of times I'm trying to analyze it.

29:18Brené Brown:What could I do better? And you're like, basically, fuck that. There's nothing you can do better. We just did the exact same thing and what you're experiencing is gendered. And I'm like, God, you're right. I forget, you know, because it's just the way, it's the price of doing business sometimes, I think, when you're a woman in an area where there are not a lot of women. And I agree with you, Adam, about putting a system in place. But the problem is that putting a system in place requires people to even think that it could be an issue. And I think that's really, do you know what I mean? Like there has to be some thought that - I mean, no, you're right, Brené.

29:54I think now I'm thinking about this World Cup just gone where I was in amongst the fans and I didn't have a single problem. And I do think, no, but I was in the States, don't forget. And America is different. Well, certainly from my experience, when I do fan fests, there are 10 ,000 people there. I never have a single moment of a problem. When I was at the World Cup and I went out to the semifinals, not a problem, not a single comment, nothing. Now, it's partly because they were all obsessed with Zlatan and Thierry and no one cared about me. But I do think that when I first arrived in America in 2013, I was like, wow, this is much safer.

30:29This is much safer. It's definitely a cultural thing. It's not an excuse. It's just it definitely was a cultural thing. Like I say, it has moved on. I do think things are better. I would know now if I had had a problem this past summer, I know Fox would have had a person, I know who they are already, the people that I could have gone to to make it both safe and worthwhile. And I feel already, now is that because I'm 45 and I'm established? I don't know how a 25 year old would feel, which is what I was, or I was 30 odd when this happened. I don't know about that. I know now I would feel much more safe speaking up.

31:06Definitely. Definitely. But again, is that because I'm older and maybe have more leverage? Let's be honest.

31:12Brené Brown:I don't know. And can we just take a break and say it's people like you who made it safer for younger women coming into the game right now? You have to say that. You have to like, I hear Aaron, our producer in the background going, yes, the father of daughters. Like it, when you're out front on something like this, it's pretty, it's pretty hard. That's the positive. you know and and i'm fine i've dealt with all of that and i am fine but that makes me so happy that you say that brenne because it's very difficult for me to imagine 10 year old girls out there watching i have a 10 year old boy and so in a funny way it's actually just as good that he sees me isn't it but when i do have messages on instagram or and i do meet people and they say about their daughters or i get videos sent of their daughters trying to impersonate me because it's completely normal to try to impersonate somebody who's been on television it gives me and that for me is above everything else because they are if they do want to do what I do I think they're like you say I think I do think now they are in such a much safer environment to start to make their travels towards where they want to get to than I was and then a lot of women in my generation although there weren't many um were all those years ago so if it had to have that unfortunately this is the world we live in if it had to have that so that now we can have these 10-year-old girls and boys understand that it's normal, oh my gosh, I'm like, my work here is done.

32:41I can just ride off into that sunset because that is immense for me, immense. It's amazing. I mean, you're a trailblazer, no question. And I'm thinking about some work one of our former PhD students, Karen Knowlton, did on trailblazing. She's now a UT Dallas professor, Renee. So not, not far from you, but she was looking at what motivates people to become trailblazers. And she found that it's not enough to just know that, you know, your, your group is facing low expectations. You also have to have a sense of belonging or identification with your group to say like, Hey, it's my job to represent women, to open doors for future women.

33:20And I'm curious how much of that was a motivator for you. Do you know what? I'll be honest, Adam, I'm not sure that it was because there were just not many women around for us to be. We had a little group, but there were so few jobs in football in England 25 years ago that it was difficult to be a sisterhood. We tried, but it was hard because, as we know, women are very, everybody is very competitive, but women are very competitive, especially in their early years when they're trying to get places. and I wouldn't say that it was very easy to kind of create a sisterhood that I could then try to represent I felt like it was like I was trying to I just felt alone I felt alone the few women that were doing the job kind of doing the job were untouchable unreachable and they were probably protecting their jobs they didn't want you know on the old occasion that I would be in the presence of somebody who had come before me there wasn't a lot of warmth because and I get it now because Because I've seen it so many times and they were just desperate that I wasn't going to take their job because there's only one job for a woman at this particular, let's say, show.

34:33So if I suddenly preferred to them, they're out. And now where are they going? Because there's only one job at all of these places for 25 years ago. The trailblazer thing, I haven't really realized. I've just been I've had to be so focused on on trying to get somewhere against all the odds over the last 25 years that really it's only been since I came to America that I've thought my gosh there are actually and there are girls now that I have met who are 20 who'll say to me I've been watching you since I was seven first of all I'm like please could we not with the math I mean that is just hideous absolutely hideous but now they're 20 and I mean but I had I've had two or three just in the last week messaged me to say they're now doing broadcast journalism at college and they want to be a sports broadcaster.

35:18And that's because of me. I mean, so it's only really been when I felt safe, really safe in this country and really supported and seen as normal that I've realized that I'm a trailblazer. Um, I suppose is the answer to that because there just wasn't time before. There just wasn't time. She says reluctantly, I think you need to own it, Rebecca, I think we can take this moment to acknowledge you have arrived. You have made it. I mean, what an impact to have had, right? That people there, that there are women now who have chosen different careers because of the work that you did. I know, I know. And I'm, and I'm hoping, and I'm, I'm fairly certain just again from anecdotally that even my little boy, who's 10, like he's out there commentating on his own goals.

36:02He's playing, he wants to be a soccer player, but he said to me yesterday, well, maybe if after I've been a soccer player mum I could be like Thierry and Zlatan I could sit at the desk and be and I said absolutely you could and so they are these and I'm seeing it through my my son's eyes he is seeing the people that I've worked with this summer and he now wants to be them so those younger I mean it's just it honestly Adam it it honestly blows my mind that somebody could want to do what I do because of me I'm so grateful and it honestly that is again my like what else could I possibly ask for

36:35Brené Brown:it's i mean it's it's just yeah it's incredible i have okay i know we want to connect with some research i have these questions because i have watched you and diagnosed your skill set through so many games now that i have to ask you some skills-based questions is that okay with you please i love it um and and i don't know it's like i did that thing there was this great episode of Sherlock, where they slowed down a scene to like just, so I slow down the scenes when I watch you. Okay. And this is for anyone who is alive. You don't have to be a broadcaster. You don't have to be in sports. You can lead meetings at work.

37:16Brené Brown:You can be talking to your neighbor. What is the key to a good interruption? When you've got to interrupt people, because like, let's put up a picture of the people she was at the desk with when we show this. I mean, Can you talk about your three co-hosts real quick? Just name them and talk about. Okay, yeah, real quick. So three very different people, three absolutely gigantic personalities, the likes of which I don't think I've... Gigantic, Brené, gigantic. I have worked with big, big names. I have never worked with three bigger personalities in three totally different ways. Every single day for hours on end, plus travel, plus meetings, all the things.

37:54so once I kind of very quickly try to learn about three of them the interrupting thing is so interesting I think you have to use it as little as possible so that when you do it it has a it's a bit jarring because you know you want in my opinion my role is to make them look good therefore I shouldn't need to interrupt them unless I think they can look better so Zlatan for example will answer sometimes occasionally will answer a question with a with a with a really big statement and then I can sense that he's going he's not building on that statement and he's going off somewhere no no we need to build on that statement that's when I'll jump in and say but what do you mean or tell me more about that something like that okay so it's because they he was first into tv never done it before so that's one thing in television you need time to interrupt because normally there is not enough time to do anything i just think you have to use it as a tool very rarely and to get keep them on track and if they're a little if they're a little fence sitting on something you know if they're a little we're not we're not gray area on on sports tv we've got to be black or we're going to be white like we got to get to one or the other so if alexi would sort of i mean to be fair alexi probably wouldn't but if tieri would would sort of slightly hedges bets on something slightly be well I don't know no no I need to know no I need to know answer the question I need to know the answer yes or no and sometimes the it's not really an interruption thing but something I use sometimes quite a lot is because I think it has a big impact and it's kind of interrupty is right one word answer let's go down the line are they going to win yes or no yes yes no whatever it is and it's bam bam bam and it gives the viewer like whoa and so it's not really an interruption that's more of a kind of an um a jab if you like of television i like to call it like a bit of a a bit of a punch um but in terms of interruption to try i i try not to do it because i really want them to shine it's not about it really isn't about me one of my biggest pet hates in television is when a host is in my opinion makes it about them i'm literally the traffic cop and those three are the stars and I'm just directing them where to go so that their star can shine as bright as possible.

40:11So if I interrupt, I have to make sure it's only to make them even brighter.

40:16Brené Brown:And then you ended up being the star. Okay, I have to role play this with you. I know I have to role play. Adam, let's just be, Adam and I, you're going to interrupt me and Adam, and we're going to go on a little tangent right now, and you need to bring us back to the podcast. Go. Well, Renee, so I was actually thinking while Rebecca was talking. She has brilliant skills for doing it in the moment, but I want to know what happens behind the scenes. And I was thinking about Debra Tannen's research on high involvement versus high politeness cultures. You know this research, right? I do. I do know this.

40:46Brené Brown:But Rebecca, you have to interrupt. We're role-playing here. Yeah. I'm waiting. I'm waiting for the moment. You guys are too good. It's fine. This is not a role-play. I really want to make this point too, but you should interrupt when you should, whenever you want to. But Brene, what I was thinking about is I have had, when I, when I'm on stage with somebody or doing a podcast with somebody who I know can be long-winded. I will actually tell them about that research up front and say, hey, some people see interruptions as rude. I've come to see them more as a sign of engagement, that I'm so intrigued by what you just said that I have to jump in and ask a follow-up or give you something else.

41:16And I was so curious about whether Rebecca ever does anything like that. And Brene, I wondered what you thought about that too.

41:21Brené Brown:Brene, do you agree? Okay. I can't because I just got the Rebecca finger and I've studied her too much. I know it's coming. I was wanting her to do a bigger interruption. No, she doesn't have to. No, she can make those three guys fall to their knees when she goes like this. Yeah. And it immediately forced me to turn the question to you. I couldn't keep talking. Oh my God, that's so funny, right? Just get that finger out, guys. Exactly. So that's me telling you, you need to wrap it up. We need to get to Brene. And I don't know how you're going to finish, but I'm going to listen to the cadence of your voice in the very second I think you're done with the cadence of your voice, but also the words that you use in that sentence, I'm actually going to jump in and ask Brene whether she agrees because otherwise I have to ask a whole question on what you've just said, which is completely unnecessary.

42:15It's not about me. It's about what Brene thinks in that moment. So that's claimed of how I would do that. That's so funny. I've never even like addressed any of this. It's just. Brene, did that role play work for your purposes or do we need to do a different one?

42:28Brené Brown:Oh no. Like, no. I mean, Erin is dying over here. Erin's taking 75 pages of producer notes. No, because what I saw was she waited until there was an organic pause. And then she went and she got the burstiness that she wants from the whatever that she called this. The punch. The punch. What do you think? And I'm like, but I got scared because I saw the finger. And you have to understand these guys. I thought they would start crying sometimes when they got the finger. Not in a bad way, just in a like, yeah, our sister's calling it. Principal's office. That's so funny. Okay, let me ask you this. This is a weird question.

43:17Brené Brown:what's one thing that everyone every leader running a meeting gets wrong that live television would fix in a heartbeat like oh length length length length length of talking stop talking stop stop enough like people have no it's true Brene like stop people have no concentration span and I'm not just talking about Gen Z. I'm talking about nobody. Nobody's got it. And we all love the sound of our voice. And we need in a meeting with leaders and whoever's leading that meeting, they need to imagine an internal timer. We need a quick introduction. We need to get to the speakers or the point or the slideshow or whatever it is.

44:00We need to do it quickly. We need to efficiently. And television would fix that because I have no time for anything. I have to go to break in 10 seconds. And in that 10 seconds, I have to find two really interesting things to say at the same time as trying to shut Zlatan up because he's trying to take some of my time going to break. And now I'm self-editing what I've got to say because I've now got four seconds because he's still talking over there and his microphone's up. So this, the constraints of live television, I think would fix all of those things. You have to be efficient with what you say.

44:30Okay. I have a follow-up. I love her. I just love her. This is so good. There's actually research on the value of putting a timer on display that people shorten their talk. And we've used it in some of our internal meetings because a bunch of us read the research and said, fine, we're going to have a meeting. We're putting a two minute countdown on the Zoom screen. Let's go. But there are some people who don't stick to the time and they just keep bloviating. Oh, I know about those people. I mean, it's disproportionately men. What do you do when they don't take the cue? What do you do then? You have a conversation after you put the finger up, Brené.

45:09You put the finger up. You have a conversation with them after that show, ahead of the next one, to say, guys, we have to stick to the time. You also, I often say to the producers, give me more times in my ear and give them more times. Because sometimes I get it. you're in the middle of a point and you don't hear them say 45 as in 45 seconds left because you're still you're thinking about what they're thinking about i get it but if then very quickly you hear 30 oh hang on one of those is going to get through to that person so more times the better and yet it's hard to be to be given times in your ear i get that that's hard but i would like i ask for as many times as possible i mean i if you could count me from three minutes to zero i would take it for an interview or with a with a panel because i can then structure self-structure the sometimes they don't give me any times in my ear and they just let us chat well that's great if it's 10 minutes but if it's three minutes i have to self-structure the inter the chat i'm having based on how much time i have left based on who's done how much talking and who is owed some seconds especially if somebody's gone for one minute out of three and i've still got the other two to go now you would think oh that's just two minutes each but then it becomes question question question that's boring i need question question back to you over to you maybe a finish from you and a one line from you.

46:19That's what I want. So as much time as you could have given to you is really important. So I would say you need to have a conversation. You need to be strong and they need to get better because the taking the time for other people thing is not fair and it's not good and it's not what we should be doing. So yeah, interesting. All of that. Very interesting. Look, she's got the finger on the drink even.

46:41Brené Brown:Okay. Can I ask an Ashley and Barrett question? Please. Okay. Ready? And then we'll, okay, hold on. If I don't ask, I'll get in so much trouble. Okay, let's turn it up. Okay. Let's see how this is going to work. This is super like NBC Fox level tech. Incredible. Hi, Rebecca. This is Ashley, the older twin. It's so amazing to watch you on the desk for both the World Cup and the Premier League. And come on, say A. Anyway, my question for you is, what are the biggest shifts that you have to make when you switched from working with the Robbies and Tim to Thierry, Zlatan and Alexei. It's so fun to watch you with both.

47:20Brené Brown:So I'm just wondering, like, what are the biggest shifts that you have to make when changing, working with the personalities? Thanks for all the joy you brought me during the World Cup. Can't wait for the prem to start. Ashley, first of all, hi, Ashley. How lovely are you. What a great question. The answer is a lot, a lot of different things. I'd never met Zlatan before. He'd never done television before. I had met Thierry before, but I'd never done television with him. And I had done television with Alexei, but 14 years ago with ESPN. And as we just discussed a minute ago, 14 years, quite a long time ago.

47:59And I couldn't remember too much other than I knew he was quite efficient operator with the mechanisms of television. So I knew he would be my guy if we needed to get to break. I could go to him last and I knew that he finished pretty much. He wouldn't go over his time. The biggest differences are Thierry is absolutely set on talking about soccer, soccer, and only soccer. He is not interested in whether a coach is being fired. He is not interested in whether a player and another player have had a fight in the dressing room. He ain't interested in the soap opera around the game. He's only interested in tactics and football.

48:36And I get that. That's fine. And he's very cerebral when it comes to that. And he wanted to do a tactics breakdown every day because that gave him his fix. So I had to be careful what I asked him because there were a number of times I would ask him a question, because I'm so used to it, about the narrative about, do you think how long has he got left in his job, for example? I didn't ask that. But for example, nope, not answering that, Rebecca. In fact, one day I said to him on air and it was very early on and this was a lesson I said to it so Thierry what's in your gut today who's going to win and why nope I don't do predictions I do analysis he said that live on air I was like okay and that's that's a slap on the back of my wrist so that was okay no to self he doesn't do predictions okay so I then found ways of getting predictions people love predictions from the other two and I'd always say to him I'm not going to ask you but I would like to know what the key is to today so I still had to find a way of asking him so you have to know what they're comfortable with.

49:26So I had to get to know them pretty quickly. With Zlatan, he'd never done television. So with Zlatan, I had to be very conscious of when I came to him, because he would be getting the timings in his ear, talking of timings. We ain't listening to the timings. There are no charts he's listening to the timings. First of all, he's Zlatan. He doesn't listen to timings. So I would always make sure, I would always make sure, timings listen to Zlatan. I would always make sure that I would go to Zlatan either first or second, but I couldn't often go to him third and he knows this I would say this to him because it would be difficult for him to wrap up and a couple of times I it just found out it just became a situation where he was last and I I would have to really wrap him up and he would just say what are you doing Rebecca are you trying to stop me talking I mean he would do things on TV that people don't do you know pull back the curtain I'd be like yes Zlatan we've got to go to break now or we've got the kickoff is about to happen so we've got to stop talking here Zlatan so it's learning their personalities but also key for key for it because robbie robbie and tim are have done it for years and they make my job very very very easy i still have things with with them that i have to just manage different things but with these three it was about learning their personalities off the air so we would always go to to the green room and watch the games and there it's like do you want a cup of tea can i get your cup of tea and and and can i get should we have a chat or how did you feel that pre-game when or or as that would sometimes come up to me and say do you think that was good and you would never think that from satan because he's flat at but from just him saying that to me do you think that was good pre-game i knew okay he a wants to improve because he wants to be the best and b he is asking for feedback without asking for feedback so i i would write okay that's a green light for me to maybe be a little bit more involved with him maybe give him a little bit more And we had a six-week period.

51:15And so I had to just not do everything the first week. It's too much the first week, but just slowly ease in. Keep encouraging them. Keep telling them they're doing a great job because everyone has egos. Of course they do. They're huge personalities. They're massive stars. And then with Alexei, it was making sure that he didn't feel like he was in the shadow of the other two because they were such big personalities. And Alexei's personality off the air, guys, is not the same personality as it is on the air. And he would probably admit that. I'm sure he would. People have talked about it. He's very quiet.

51:44He's very reserved off the air in the green room. So that's another thing. So it's personal attention. And, you know, it's kind of man management is kind of what it is, both on the air, learning their facial expressions, learning the cadence of their voices and when they're going to stop talking so I can jump in like we just did. but it's also off the air man managing them as people i think is my job as well and in every commercial break making sure they know exactly what's happening in the next segment so that they're comfortable like we talked about you have to be comfortable in in live television it's it's scary and live tv scary especially with the speed at which these sports shows go so there's it's like quarterbacking i suppose i have a lot of roles and with those three it was just more intense so maybe over the 13 years with Robbie, Robbie and Tim, I've done it.

52:28But this was Robbie, Robbie and Tim condensed into six weeks to try and get us somewhere. Yeah, it was a lot. It was a lot of off camera. A lot, a lot, a lot. But they were just so responsive, so respectful, so wonderful. And what an honor. What an honor to sit alongside those three. I mean, loved it. Well, but also if you look at the other side of that, what respect it shows on Zlatan's part early on that he's coming to you and wanting your feedback, right? That says he trusts you. He sees you as a credible source. He wants to learn from you. He doesn't just want to learn. Yeah, that's true, Adam.

53:05Yeah. Sorry, carry on. No, no, no, no. Go ahead. I just think that that really was a big deal for me because I didn't know him from Adam. I met him in the seminar. We had a seminar in March where I did a little panel with him and Thierry and And Alexi is a kind of, it was for the Fox employees, but it was almost felt a bit like a dress rehearsal. But, you know, we had a few days of rehearsals. And this is a guy who has a very small inner circle. He will say to me, Rebecca, I have a very small, and maybe you'll get in here by the end, but we'll see. He's brutal. The guy doesn't care. He can live his life the way he wants to live his life.

53:42He has earned that right. So to have him the very first day he did that, day two, I think it was, or maybe day three, to say to me, were you happy with that? And it was a quiet little moment between us. I just thought that showed a humility that people don't give him the credit for because, yeah, he plays up to the camera and he has this huge persona. But I thought, wow, OK, so now I have the responsibility that he now trusts me. OK, so now that's another responsibility. Now I have to now I have to make sure that that trust is is reciprocated. And I and I absolutely help him every step of the way, because as much as people say as much as the impression he gave off was, oh, I'm so good at TV.

54:18I've been here before. I knew, I knew that he wanted to be the best. So that was my job to try and make him the best. And I said to him, you Zlatan on day one and Zlatan on day 39, the World Cup final are going to be so different. And he was like, I know, I know. I said, no, I promise you. And if you look back at him on day one today, it was such a huge trajectory. He worked so hard at a lot of things. And we all, the producers did too. We all worked hard to make him the star that he absolutely was at that World Cup, in my opinion. and it was, I mean, again, I get chills. What an honor. This guy is like, he's a megastar in my world, in the world, but in my world, he's a megastar and to have him now as a friend, that's truly something.

55:00Okay, I have to ask because this is such a great moment to compare. Brene, what would you have said to Zlatan in that moment when he said, were you happy with that? I think it would be so interesting to hear how each of us would approach that, all three of us. So Rebecca, don't tell us what you said yet. Can we take a minute to reflect? And Rebecca, you also have the chance now, you had to respond in the moment. Now with the benefit of hindsight, how would you approach that? I think is fascinating.

55:27Brené Brown:I don't think I know what I would have said until I got to this place in this podcast, because what I'm hearing as someone who studied leadership for decades, you're a leader. You're leading a team. You're leading a high performance team. You're getting to know individual members of a high performance team, their strengths or opportunities for growth. So I think I would have just resorted to my leadership work and I would have said, I really appreciate you asking, here's what I think we did well. Here's what I'm curious about. What do you think we did well? What do you think the opportunity for growth is?

55:58Brené Brown:I think I would have just gone into kind of my leadership of performing teams. Adam, what would you have done? In a rate of reliability. I would have said a version of that. I think I would have gotten to the same thing with different language. But what I was thinking was, it's so interesting that you asked me that. Were you happy with it? And then wait for the answer and then say, okay, look, I've actually learned that are you happy with it is the wrong question. It doesn't matter whether it was good or not. The only question I want to consider is how can we get better together? Let's talk about that.

56:30That's so interesting. So I didn't do either of those. And I think both of those sound much better than what I did. What I did was in the context of the six weeks, it was day two. So what I did was just knowing him, because you guys obviously don't know him. So I have an advantage on that, right? So having known him for 10 days by that point, let's say, I thought he needed just a yes in the moment. I thought he needed a great, it was great. They were happy in my ear. The producers were happy. It was great. That moment, I think I picked out a moment that he did. I said, that I loved. So I picked out a moment and said, that bit, that was great.

57:06And we got our cup of coffee and we sat and he went, okay, great. And we sat down. So for me in that moment, that was all I felt I needed to do. but I knew now the door is open. If I can, because these, these, these ex, these ex-athletes can take a lot of criticism because they've been criticized their whole life. I'm married to a former professional footballer and manager and he's, he's so good. I'm terrible. He's so good at taking criticism. And I've learned that with all the ex-pros I've worked with. They are so good at taking constructive feedback. Most human beings are not, but when you've had it your entire life, like they have in their careers, they can do it.

57:38So I knew A, that he would be fine at that, but but that be this was a big deal to him i could just tell from that one question that this world cup was a big deal for him so i just thought we're not there yet i'm gonna have every day with this guy for six weeks i don't think i need to go too deep right now and he was getting a coffee you know he was kind of it was a casual do you think that was okay he was quite casual i thought i thought let's just not massage the ego but let's just give him a boost tell him it's great and this was one thing I picked out. And then the doors open. And then two days later, something happened on air.

58:11And he said, what happened there? Was that okay? And that's when I said, well, yeah, but you know what I think we should do? And I talked him through something. And so that was only because I knew I had six weeks with him, you know, and then I did more what you guys then talked about just then. Oh, you are so much more patient than I am. I so admire you play the long game.

58:32Brené Brown:But I, from a leadership perspective, we talk about this a lot with leaders that it's hard to armchair that question. I love that you asked it. It's hard to armchair it because we don't know the full context, but it sounded like in that moment, what we, how we frame this with leaders is you got a permission slip. He handed you a permission slip. And the one thing you never do when you're handed a permission slip as a leader is used as an opportunity for coaching your feedback. The most important thing you can do when someone hands you a permission slip is accept it with grace. But you never in that moment go back with feedback.

59:08Brené Brown:So it sounds like to me, he handed you a permission slip over, and they're usually handed in very informal moments. Yes. That was it. We were making a coffee. That was exactly it. I have to, I know this is really hard. I have to play the Barrett question because I will get killed by my sisters. Wait, before you do, can I just react to that really quickly? I love the, thank you for the permission slip for the permission slip commentary. I love the permission slip idea. That's such a great frame. I've never heard it. Where have you been hiding this from me? Well, no, because we, we teach it and dare to lead because a lot of times people will say, Oh my God, I got a permission slip from a reluctant team member.

59:45Brené Brown:And then I gave them all the coaching and I haven't seen them since. Wow. Okay. So what I think is, sorry, Adam, It's the vulnerability that someone is showing when they're giving up. That's it, right? Because he was so vulnerable. If I'd gone back, he wasn't in a place yet. At day two, he was not in a place yet for me to go, but you know when you do this, I would do this or try this. He wasn't there yet. He just wanted to be safe and make sure everything was okay. And that's okay, right? That's exactly where I was going, which is he wasn't there yet, I think, in two ways. One is your relationship was so new.

1:00:21But two, also, he was a novice at that point. And I was, there's a paper on this. Ayelet Fischbach did this great work on how when somebody is a novice at a task, they crave praise because they're looking for validation that they don't suck and they should keep trying. And then as they move up the competence ladder, they don't need as much of the reassurance. And at that point, they want to know, just tell me how I can improve. And you read that perfectly.

1:00:47Brené Brown:Yeah, it was beautiful. That's leadership. And also, I'm also aware that we've got you beyond the 30 minutes or 35 minutes. I don't care. Are you sure? 100%. She would give me the finger. Not that finger, but this finger. I'll give you the finger if I need to give you the finger. No fingers in here, Brené Brown. No fingers. I will do Barrett's question, then we'll go to rapid fire. Adam, does that sound good? Okay. And then in our post-game debrief, we can get into the research. Okay, let me play Barrett. These are twins. It's very hectic for me as the oldest sister if I don't get both of them.

1:01:17Brené Brown:I'm sure. Okay. Okay. Hi, Rebecca. this is Barrett. I'm the youngest sister. Obviously, they say for the best for last. Thank you for guiding us through the World Cup. You are so impressive on the desk and we're so grateful. My question for you is, your calm is so contagious, whether it's on the desk for the Premier League or the World Cup, when your co-hosts get rowdy, how do you create the calm necessary to move forward? Thank you. Oh my gosh. Barrett, what a question. do you know i'm not sure 100 i know the answer to that i think i how do i create the car i think i know that the alternative is panic and panic on live television is gonna end my career and most other people's career so i'm very aware of my responsibility as a host to be the vessel of calm no matter what because I think that watching television you as a viewer you need you we keep going back to sort of feeling safe in all different ways but you need to feel comfortable I personally think I'm not sure feeling uncomfortable watching television is a great experience unless you're watching the world cup and there's actual footballers that's different but studio shows like the show that I do it's it's comfortable but engaged comfortable but engaged it would it's so important to me to remain calm.

1:02:43It's so important because I think that the minute you don't, you lose everything. You lose your credibility, you lose your presence, your breath, everything. So I think it's a really difficult question to answer because I think it's more of a reflex action, actually. And the reflex action is, I think, stems from a responsibility that this, I feel is my show. I don't mean it's about me, but it's my show. It's my responsibility to get from A to B. They can be as chaotic as they want, but I have, I'm like the pilot of an airplane. You can be running around the plane as long as we take off and land.

1:03:26That's kind of how it is. I think it's a reflex action. Okay.

1:03:29Brené Brown:So can I, can I share some feedback with you? Please. Okay. This was such a loaded question from Barrett because we've analyzed you on the desk. because we teach calm as a leadership skill. You are amazing at this. So I will tell you specifically the behaviors I observe when the desk gets crazy. Yeah, please. Okay. You never match tone or speed of conversation when people get out of hand. You go quieter and slower and they model what you're doing. You never, you, and it's what we try to teach leaders. Literally, I was going to ask Aaron to clip stuff for me that I can show when I teach leaders because when they get worked up, you do exactly what is difficult to teach people but is a teachable skill where you will literally at the desk like this.

1:04:25Brené Brown:So what I'm wondering, and then they match you in speed, loudness, and tone. So you use your entire presence as this calm barometer at the desk. You never match anxious, rambunctious energy. And that's very hard because anxiety is the most contagious affect in the whole ocean of affects. Calm is also contagious, but you deploy it so strategically. It's crazy to watch. Wow. Wow. Freddie, no one has ever analyzed what I do, ever. So to hear that back is kind of an out-of-body experience. And I didn't even, I'm not even 100 % sure I knew I did that consciously. I don't know if I know consciously I'm doing that.

1:05:20I just think I'm so aware that I have a responsibility. I can't get out of hand. I can't get out of hand because then where do we go? Then who's saving this shit? And also, I also think that maybe I'm now trying to reflect on why I do that. maybe if I go up with speed, with volume, with rambunctiousness, again, the spotlight comes to me because then I'm part of that. And I'm so, so, so imploring people who do my job to not be a part of that because that's what they get paid to do. And if they want to be rambunctious, that can be great TV, no problem. But that's not what I'm paid to do. So I think maybe that is just so ingrained in my brain is my overall work belief that I am the pilot, not part of the show, that maybe that's why I do it.

1:06:11It's hard to know, but hearing you say that is so interesting to me. Now I'm going to be like, I'm going to be conscious of it in a few weeks. Don't do that. We like the unconscious confidence there. I'm struck by how generalizable a skill that is, right? This is not just something you do in high voltage TV. This is something that's taught in conflict mediation training, where the instinct is to mirror because you want to show the other person you're with them. But just like Brene was describing, you have to do the opposite. And what you have to show them is that an alternate way of engaging is possible.

1:06:45And all of a sudden, they're running into this very calm, peaceful force. And they realize that they're kind of flying off the handle, and it feels inappropriate when the contrast is so stark. And you just do that so masterfully. Thank you, Adam. Thank you both. That is, wow, what a joy. Thank you for all of that. That is fascinating to hear and really, really lovely. Thank you.

1:07:10Brené Brown:Is it weird that we watch film on you like footballers watch film on the pitch? Do you know what? It's never crossed my mind that somebody would be doing that. But yeah, I've done that. I watch hosts with an eagle eye. even now of course now i'm still trying to get better but have always done so i suppose of course no it's not i just can't believe people do that to me it's just crazy there's a lot to learn you are a game tape you're a game tape okay fast lightning round i'm gonna give the rebecca finger okay feel free one thing you're deeply curious about right now oh my gosh the first thing that springs to mind is the kind of teenager my son's gonna be he's 10 and uh we are heading into it and i'm i am so deeply curious which way we're gonna go uh not that there are more there are more than two ways but like don't know i just feel like is he going to be the teenager that that certain other boys i've seen are or is he going to be like his half brother who is a really like he didn't really change i'm kind of really curious about that so fun to watch so fun to learn what a joy yeah You're going to take your future teenager into the wildest, wackiest curiosity shop that you've ever seen.

1:08:29What are you putting in that shop? It can have anything in it. Oh, my goodness.

1:08:37Brené Brown:You can give us one item that it wouldn't be a curiosity shop without. One thing that would have to be in there. And does it have to be a real thing? Like, does it have to be? Okay, so we both, my future teenager and I, would definitely like a full explanation, a book maybe, maybe a slideshow explanation about what the hell is out there in space. And when does it end? And why does it end? And how does it end? Because nothing ever ends. and we talk about it a lot and we would like the explanation, please. And I would like it in layman's terms and I would like a full explanation and I would like proof and I would like all of that.

1:09:19Do you follow Cleo Abram? No, but now I should, right? Oh, huge if true. Follow immediately.

1:09:25Brené Brown:Okay. Love it. Okay, great. One thing you're deeply grateful for right now. Oh my gosh, that is 100 % my own health. Just put myself in for a colonoscopy. Just thought I'd just drop that in there because we've got to do these things right had a mammogram on monday let's go big girl panty time folks right quite literally with a colonoscopy so um we we got that coming up uh my husband is healthy my son is healthy and happy and everyone is happy and and it's one of those you know and i and i've i recently had a friend of a friend who's diagnosed with breast cancer and it again and it happens so often doesn't it and again i come back to gratitude of health gratitude of health that's all i care about we've got to get these things done.

1:10:05We got to get our tests done, everybody out there, men and women, and we just got to remain as healthy as we possibly can because my goodness, it can all finish. So that is what I'm most grateful for right now. That's on our list every week. Okay. Last one, Rebecca, I have to ask you this. So last week, Brene and I were talking about withdrawal and how we missed the World Cup intensely. So good news is the Women's World Cup is around the corner. What What are you most excited about for that? I'm most excited for, I just got an image in my head of this country again. First of all, the U.S. women's national team are really good.

1:10:43They are really good. So I'm very certain that they will go further than the men's national team. And so the love affair that this country has now with football is going to be a longer love affair. And it's going to go further than even it was this summer with the U.S. men. The manager of the US Women's National Team, Emma Hayes, is a Brit and she is off the charts. Good, I know, right? I mean, what a legend. So I feel like that is what I'm most excited for, to compound the love affair that is happening right now with this sport. We're going to do it again next summer in a beautiful setting in Brazil and ahead of the 2031 World Cup, Women's World Cup, which is in the United States.

1:11:30so I'm excited really for this trajectory that this sport that I have loved my whole life and is now on to simply continue um and to let the girls ever go let's go Rebecca get just

1:11:45Brené Brown:thank you so much for saying yes thank you for doing a um I love it because I make up I operate from the similar thing it's either a hell yes or it's a no at this point so uh thank you for making us a heck yes. Oh, I got to tell you guys, at the moment, you're the only hell yes I've done. So everyone else has been a no and you have come flying through. This has been such an honor, such a privilege. Thank you so much for having me. I've enjoyed it so much. I've never had questions like the ones you've asked me. And it's been so wonderful just to take a moment to reflect on everything that you've asked me about.

1:12:18And I'm just so grateful. Thank you. We only got through a fraction of them. I know.

1:12:23Brené Brown:We have like 30 more. Yeah, because it's just, you know, when you watch film on a person who's as skilled as you are, there's a lot that we, but just know this, I will be showing clips of you to teams of senior leaders about how to calm shit down when the going gets hard. So thank you for what you do and thank you for bringing so much joy and honesty to everything. Same. Thank you, guys. And also send my love to Ashley and Burratt and thank you for their questions. Aw. Oh my God, I'm never going to hear the end of it. They'll be wearing Rebecca Lowe t-shirts tomorrow. So, okay. I love it. Take good care.

1:12:57Thanks, Adam. Thank you. You too. Bye.

1:13:04Hey, Chicago.

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1:14:33Brené Brown:What did you think about my girl Rebecca Lowe? Oh my gosh, what a rock star. So good. So good. So thoughtful, so insightful. I mean, we always admire star performers. And then the open question is, can they talk about what they do? And she's as good at analyzing what she does as she is at doing it. That's not fair. It's not fair. And what's really, it's interesting because I think maybe there is a study that you know about that you can tell all of us about. But sometimes I think that those of us who had a circuitous path picked up things along the way, very specific skill sets and mindsets that we don't even understand underlie our success at what we're doing now.

1:15:19Like for me, for example, bartending, I'm not kidding you for nine years.

1:15:24Brené Brown:Like I learned more about empathy and storytelling, bartending than I could ever learn in classes on empathic strategy, you know? And then I think sometimes when I, when I heard her talking, I was so excited to talk to you about it because she has a masterful skillset. Would you agree? Oh, I mean, strong agreement. I was thinking about David Epstein's book, Ranged, just now when you were talking. Oh, wow, interesting. Which is full of evidence on the value of taking those detours and doing side quests and having either a second career or a hobby that's really different from your job. Because you're right, there's so much learning and also confidence that comes from doing those things.

1:16:13For me, performing as a magician is where I picked up some of the skills I use in the classroom and on stage. I didn't know that was going to be relevant, but how to deal with a heckler, how to set up the element of surprise for an audience, that was huge. I never would have told somebody to do it.

1:16:30Brené Brown:I'm really, yes. And I'm thinking also when I've had a hard time since we've known each other before, you've drawn a parallel between being a diver and getting the twisties. And there was nothing that, it was probably anxiety for me, but when you describe the twisties, that's how I felt emotionally or mentally. And, and so it's like, it's always surprising to me that the, the breadth of things we draw on that make us good at what we do and the danger of thinking, when you think, talk about the book range, the danger of, you know, I even look at me growing up, I played seven sports and sucked at six and a half of them.

1:17:14Brené Brown:you know what I mean like but today I'm surrounded by parents who pick a sport for their three-year-old and then that's the only thing they can play and then they've got club coaches that say if you try to play anything else you're off the team and it's just I don't know bartending you know the only job I ever got fired from was cleaning houses I just want to tell you this don't use pledge on the floor even if it makes it shinier because someone will break their tailbone and fire you. But I don't know. It's just the fact that she, you know, because she was studied drama, it gave her a leg up as a sports broadcaster because she could memorize direct-to-camera stuff, you know, like, I don't know.

1:17:57And I don't know.

1:17:59Brené Brown:It's just interesting to me. I don't know what I'm trying to say, but I'm interested by it. Oh, I think, I think it's, it's another reminder that, like, that success is a squiggly line, not a straight line. And we of so many people trying to track their kids for the shortest path to success, as opposed to saying they need to accumulate a bunch of interesting experiences that will teach them unexpected skills. And that's the only way they're going to approach the thing that everybody's doing one way, a different way. God, really love that. Okay. What's one thing you learned from Rebecca that surprised you?

1:18:31Okay. So first thing is when we were talking about preparedness earlier, I was thinking about this great study by Xiaoping Chen and her colleagues, where they look at entrepreneurs doing pitches and they compare entrepreneurial passion versus entrepreneurial preparedness to ask who's going to get funded. And the finding is that preparedness beats passion, that investors, they don't care whether you're doing a song and dance. They don't care whether you're fired up. What they're looking for is what is actually the real cue of passion, not the enthusiasm you show, but whether you've done your homework, you know your numbers, You've figured out all the different parameters that might affect whether your idea is going to work or not.

1:19:15You premortemed yourself essentially. And I was just thinking, I was thinking of Rebecca, like her preparedness is where the passion comes through.

1:19:23Brené Brown:I think that's so, I think that's so beautiful. You know how I feel about preparedness. I don't ever have to be, nor am I ever the smartest person in the room, but I am definitely in the running for the most prepared person in the room. 99 % of the time. And I don't prepare out of fear. I prepare out of respect and love for myself and the other people in the room. But I am such a fan of preparedness that that research, I, because here's the thing, even with students, because I do all group projects. So if I have a group of MBA students presenting, I love an enthusiastic, I love an enthusiastic presentation.

1:20:08Brené Brown:you're going to get a really bad grade if your preparedness doesn't match it. If you've got a really prepared piece for me in the class and it doesn't have a lot of entertainment value, you're going to get a good grade. As it should be. Nicely done. I'll go to the movies to get, you know, I'll go see The Odyssey for entertainment. I need you to be able to answer all my questions and demonstrate anticipatory thinking and care. Same. Okay. Okay, second piece of research. So my colleague, Nancy Rothbard studied workaholism. And I think in the traditional workaholism literature, there was the common finding that, you know, it's basically a risk factor for stress, for burnout, for also physical health problems.

1:20:53And Nancy said, not so fast, not so fast, because there's a difference between being a compulsive workaholic who works all the time because you feel pressure and guilt and anxiety and shame if you're not working. and an engaged workaholic where you love what you do or you care about what you do. And she sure enough found that only compulsive workaholics experience the cost, not the engaged ones. And I felt like Rebecca was narrating her life is engaged workaholism, like not socializing, not going out. She loves soccer. She cares deeply about her job. She wants to do the best job she can. And I related to that personally.

1:21:28I imagine you do too, but I was curious to hear your take.

1:21:31Brené Brown:Okay, so I love this. You know, as a grounded theory researcher and someone that leans heavily into linguistics, I don't like that we're adding adjectives to workaholism to say whether it's good or bad, because as also a sober person for 30 years, I just don't think we should. I think we should change the construct when it moves from an addiction based issue to something else. So I think I wish their research said there's workaholism that's driven by not enough, worthiness, fear, shame, those kind of things. And then there's this new construct called this, which can appear in a similar way, but is actually motivated.

1:22:13Brené Brown:That's why I was very careful when I talked about I prepare not out of fear or shame or not enoughness. because there have been times in my life where I was there, but I prepare out of a love of mastery and respect for people's time. So I agree with the research and the finding. I think the labeling of constructs is super important. And I take issue there a little bit. Interesting. So you would prefer to, you see the dynamic, but you would prefer to call it something like just compulsion versus engagement. Yeah, it's just like saying there's, To me, the way I've written about this before is we don't say there's starvation and healthy starvation.

1:22:56Right.

1:22:57Brené Brown:The construct on its own. No adjective can change. Emotionally are tied to the word. Or I think when you get into the addiction literature, work is just one of many substances we use to do the same kind of thing. That makes perfect sense. You know, what's so interesting about that is in changing the emotional tone and clarifying the meaning, we lose the paradox, which you normally love. Like engaged workaholic is a paradox. Yeah, I just think for me, the construct is bankrupt. Yeah, understood. I just think that like, for example, exercise addiction, but good exercise addiction. No, no, no. Let's call it something else.

1:23:41Brené Brown:Like, you know, I don't, and it could be my recovery perspective. So I don't know. No, I like, I like your perspective. And I think what it's okay. I have a better analogy now. What you're looking for is, okay, we have stress. We're not going to start talking about good stress. We're going to name a different term. You stress, you stress. Yes. That's what you're looking for. And here's another one that I like. And I would privilege the construct emotional resonance over the paradox, which I love. Yep. perfectionism versus healthy striving. Yes. Yes, exactly. Does that make sense? Yeah. I've never, I've never liked in that literature, perfectionistic concerns versus perfectionistic strivings.

1:24:22One is perfectionism. That's maladaptive. The other is the pursuit of excellence. That's adaptive.

1:24:28Brené Brown:That's adaptive. Right. So I think it is, I think you just named the fulcrum word for me, adaptive versus maladaptive. And I think adding adjectives to maladaptive terms. It's muddying. It's muddying. That's all. Yep. Yeah. I think that's, that's really good. I like it. Okay. I have a joke for you. It's my, I had to get in on the sister game. Oh, I love it. Go. Because your sisters participated. And when we were talking about interruptions, I was reminded of my sister's favorite joke. Tell me if you've heard this one. Okay. You ready? I'm so scared. Knock, knock. Who's there? Interrupting cow.

1:25:06Brené Brown:interrupting cow who moo moo moo it's worse than I thought it's worse than I thought yeah do I oh my god yeah Aaron our producer is saying and how old is Parker 12 yeah Aaron told Parker that last night okay that is funny it was as bad as I thought yeah I thought so it's really good though it should stay in here just yeah the Grant family jokes keep them coming. Ashley and Barrett would have just killed me had I not included their questions. Okay. I'll see you next time. The Curiosity Shop is produced by Brene Brown Education and Research Group and Granted Productions. You can subscribe to The Curiosity Shop on YouTube or follow in your favorite podcast app.

1:25:52We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Discover more award-winning shows at podcast.voxmedia.com. Class is now in session. And the UPS Store is here to help you ace arriving on campus. Our certified packing experts can pack everything you need, from desktops to decor. Plus, when you pack and ship with us, you get our exclusive pack and ship guarantee. Your items arrive safe or your money back. Restrictions and limitations apply. To get a 20 % off packing coupon and for full details, visit the upsstore.com slash packing. Hello. Look what TJ Maxx dragged in. The Devil Wears Prada 2 is now streaming on Disney Plus and Hulu.

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1:26:39Brené Brown:The fashion event of the year is certified fresh. Pull yourself together. We have work to do. Critics say it's smart and witty and the perfect sequel. That's all. Get runway ready for The Devil Wears Prada 2 on Disney Plus and Hulu. Rated PG-13. Hey, it's Ryan Reynolds here for Mint Mobile. Now, I was looking for fun ways to tell you that Mint's offer of unlimited premium wireless for$15 a month is back. So I thought it would be fun if we made$15 bills. But it turns out that's very illegal. So there goes my big idea for the commercial. Give it a try at mintmobile.com slash switch. Upfront payment of$45 for three months,$90 for six months, or$180 for 12-month plan required.

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