Mission vs. Ego: The Dangers of Narcissistic Leadership

21:59Brené Brown:What about this? This is like how narcissism or traits of that can affect relationships. I was very freaked out when I read this in the research. Taking undue credit is related to narcissistic leadership patterns. Do you think that's true? Okay, so when I was studying givers and takers, I was confronted with the question of, okay, we all would prefer to be surrounded by generous than selfish people. but there must be some value of like of the selfish people otherwise they wouldn't exist and so I started combing through the research to try to figure out okay like what a what a givers take and what its takers give and the only thing that I could find out of that was givers really love to give credit and take responsibility and takers are really good at taking credit, but they also give something.

23:00Blame.

23:03Brené Brown:The takers, the givers. No, I mean, I think that a huge part of narcissism is credit hogging, or it's a major consequence of narcissism anyway, because it's part of how you show that you're not ordinary. I think the NBA data on this are so striking. There's a study where Emily Grijalva and colleagues, They actually code NBA basketball players' tweets on a narcissism scale. So, and I realize this may be a world in which the base rate of narcissism is somewhat higher than the average in the population at large. But you can still see variations, right? There are some players who tweet and say things like, you know, tough game yesterday, I really let the team down.

23:44and others who, this was an actual quote, who post a shirtless photo of themselves that says under it with a caption, when I look at myself in the mirror, all I see staring back is greatness.

24:00Me too. So, I mean, there's the credit taking, right? The question is, what does that mean for the team? Well, the higher the average narcissism level on your team, the more stagnant your team's performance is over the course of the season. Because narcissists are hogging the ball, they're hogging the glory, they're taking the credit, they undermine collaboration, as we were talking about earlier. And that is especially true if the point guard is a narcissist. Having a self-centered person move the ball up the court and control the offense is deadly to a team's ability to become more than the sum of their parts.

24:34And I think the credit-taking dynamic is probably part of that.

24:39Brené Brown:Damn. I know how I'm going to be thinking about the final four. Okay. All right. No, no. I have a question for you on this. So have you, I mean, it's really easy to see these patterns from a distance. It's hard to deal with these patterns when you confront them on a daily basis. You spend a lot of time coming into organizations and trying to cure them. I don't know if I cure them. Trying to heal them. Trying to improve the way that they work together. and maybe, I don't want to say squash egos, but maybe lower the ego or quiet the ego a little bit of leaders. How do you think about dealing with a narcissist when you see these tendencies?

25:26You know, I'm hesitant to say the truth. Always a good place to start.

25:32Brené Brown:Yeah. What I'm about to say is not going to be 100 % candid, but bear with me. No, I'm going to say, no, yeah, no, what I'm going to say is when I say that, I'm going to say, I'm going to say 100 % the truth and it could get me in a shit ton of trouble is that's usually what I mean. You know, when we go in and do dare to lead work, we say yes to those kind of embedded interventions where I'm in there doing work with leaders about 30 % of the time. The others are 70 % or no. And the first thing, and we go through very rigorous assessments where I interview people in the C-suite, I interview senior leaders, and I interview people with the least power and proximity to power.

26:14Brené Brown:And so the thing that I'm looking for, and it's probably a little bit of like creaming the crop for the intervention. Well, it is definitely creaming the crop for the intervention. Let me just be straight that I am looking for in the C-suite specifically leaders who want to win more than they want to be right. So if I'm working with a CEO or senior leaders who care more about winning and doing what's right for the organization than they do protecting a self-image, then I'm all in. And in fact, I just did an interview with the Wall Street Journal when I was with Kate Johnson at Lumen. and we've been together, working together for maybe three years and the Wall Street Journal guy said, to what do you attribute some of this transformative success?

26:59Brené Brown:And I just looked at Kate and said, she wanted to win more than she wanted to be right. And he said, what does that look like? And I said, showing up at everything we did, leading the way, modeling vulnerability, modeling empathy, modeling rethinking, modeling learning and unlearning when it was super uncomfortable, when she knew it could come up on an investor call, like really just saying, I care more about getting it right than I do about being right. And that, I can't think of a better way to demonstrate mission over ego than that. The mission over ego thing is so interesting. It takes me immediately to an experience I had.

27:40Brené Brown:Have you ever done work with St. Jude's? No. About 10 years ago, I went to go do work with St. Jude's and I was gonna meet with the leaders and they said, do you want to get here an hour early to get a tour of the hospital? And I said, oh, I'd love it. And so I got there and I got on the elevator to go to the second floor where I was meeting the docent who was going to give me the interview. And when I stepped on the elevator, the only other person on the elevator was a woman in her kind of mid sixties and she was pushing a cart of desserts. And I said, nice, you know, hi, how are you doing? She goes, good.

28:13Brené Brown:And I said, what do you do at St. Jude's? And she said, I cure cancer. And I said, I'm sorry. And she said, I cure cancer. Families, patients, physicians, nurses, staff don't eat. We can't cure cancer. Yeah. She said, I cure cancer. I got up to this and I was like, hell yeah, you do. I was like, right. That makes sense. I get up to the second floor and I meet the docent and we're just starting to walk on the tour. And I said, how long have you been volunteering for St. Jude's? And she said, God, I think I've been curing cancer for about 18 months. And it made me realize that that is a culture where the oncologists are not taking credit for curing cancer.

28:59Brené Brown:That everyone is taking credit and everyone is sharing credit. And that takes a very special kind of deep humility and curiosity in leadership. that I would say is the opposite of narcissistic leader trends. Okay. So when you confront the opposite, what do you do? You know exactly what I do. I dig in and figure out how it got there. Who brought it in? How did they build it? How do they operationalize it? I'm curious about, I've met singular leaders that are driven by courage and humility that cannot scale that across their organization. They can't even get it in their own teams. So when I see that, I'm curious about where that started and how it was built and how it's operationalized every day at every level.

29:51Okay, so if I'm your boss, because one thing that's really striking to me is when we go into organizations, we have very little to lose because we're outsiders. We're sort of brought in to hold up a mirror. and worst case scenario, people say, we don't want, we don't like the reflection, go home.

30:12Brené Brown:I get that a lot.

30:17But I imagine there are a lot of people with us today who might have to deal with a narcissistic colleague or a narcissistic boss or a narcissistic senior executive. And I guess the question is, what do you, what do you say to that person? How do you, how do you manage that dynamic when you're not in a position of freedom or power. Yeah.

30:35Brené Brown:Cause I do, I have a lot of walk away stuff and so power. Um, I personally think

30:47Brené Brown:that it's really important to have a mentor in someone in the organization that you trust, that knows that person that has more proximity to power that can kind of be a good mentor for you. But I also think those relationships are normally abusive and you should have a plan B. yeah there have been many times where I couldn't walk out of a job because I needed to you know pay my rent you know keep my insurance for my kids and so you know when people said well you should just leave then like okay but I think you should start developing a plan b I think those behaviors are very hard to change so what I would say is you know this is the old union steward in me document, use a playback as a tool.

31:33Brené Brown:So like, let's say you're the boss and you say to me, I need you to do this, this, and that. And then I would say, can I play back for you what you're wanting me to do? You need me to prioritize this. This is due on Wednesday. And this is more important than this. Is that correct? And they, and I would probably do the playback and writing, Hey, thanks for the time today. I just want to send an email real quick to play back what you're expecting from me. So that's another form of document. Like in God, we trust everyone else bring data, you know, like, so I think that's part of it. The other thing is I find engaging to be, especially if there's a power over situation, I find engaging with those folks to be somewhat dangerous.

32:17Brené Brown:Like I would not, I would try as much as I could not to engage. What about you? What about me? Well, what would you tell these folks? You know, I had a narcissistic boss early in my career, actually. And to your earlier point, not diagnosed with a personality disorder, just showing normal narcissism signs, which, you know, involve like sort of airing your grievances like every day is Festivus. if we have any Seinfeld fans in the room, showing lots of entitlement, believing that you deserve special treatment, lacking empathy for other people, and not ever owning the consequences of your decisions.

33:01I had a boss like that, and a bunch of my colleagues were being mistreated, and I basically spent a whole summer afraid to speak up. And finally, I couldn't take being such a coward anymore. And I walked into her office and I said, I think this is, you know, this is really unfortunate the way that people are being forced to work overtime without pay, the way that their, you know, their concerns are not being heard. And I'm really worried that we're going to lose them and we can't afford to. They're really valuable. And I got dragged by my ear down the hall into the women's restroom, which is the only room on our floor with no windows.

33:47And she said to me, if you ever speak up out of turn again, you'll be fired along with your coworkers. And that was why I became an organizational psychologist.

33:58Brené Brown:I did not know that. I do not ever want another person to have power over me again. Academic tenure sounds really safe right now. But one of the things I had to do then was I had to keep working with her. And I will tell you the single most helpful thing that I did was having conversations with her that were not about work, where she was not interested, where she didn't have to prove that she was special and extraordinary. And I found out that she loves Survivor and I was watching Survivor. And within a few weeks, I was on her good side again, just from talking about a TV show that was a common interest.

34:39And that, I think that got me through it. And I wrote down after I finished that job, I will never, ever work in a situation again where someone who believes that, where somebody who puts herself above the organization and above the team has the power to ruin my day. Never again.

35:08so yeah so now I write books and talk and hope that other people can use these these ideas yeah

35:13Brené Brown:I just want to I feel like this ethical obligation to pause us right now like in the you know normally just be you and me talking but in the room just to say that I want to like first of I'm really sorry that happened. Oh, thank you. No, I am. I'm over it now. No, but I am sorry that happened because it represents something that I'm sure a lot of us have done. I also just want to acknowledge the fucking emotional labor of having to find what she likes that you can both talk about and having to, you know, like, I don't know if y 'all are familiar with like the eggshell thing, like walking on eggshells and how traumatic that is.

35:53Brené Brown:For those of us who grew up in houses where you had to kind of walk on eggshells sometimes because you couldn't predict erratic behavior. And then like having to talk, like that's not free for people that have to do that. And like, just to get very, and this is gonna be opinion, but like the closer you are away from what power looks like in your organization in terms of gender and race and ethnicity and age, the heavier that load is to pick up and to have to carry around. Like that is not free. Like if you, if you're like, good morning, Adam Grant, here's your$100 to spend for the day in cognitive lift and emotional lift.

36:34Brené Brown:You could spend 70 of it if you were a generous employee on mission, but you would not have 70 of it to do that day if you're working. And so you're going to spend$68.50 or$68.99 trying to figure out what fun thing about Survivor you could talk to her about. And you're going to have$1.01 left to spend at work. And the hard thing is that the spend that we make, it's not like we walk through the back door at the end of our office day and then the bank account was like, ching, ching,$100 to find the goggles and the shin guards and to see what's for dinner. And your mom lost her meds. And no, you got like, you got$14.50 left, folks.

37:24Brené Brown:You know, and so it's like, that's why I would say have a plan B and document because in the world today, in the US, I would say, we're looking at some of the consequences of this style of leadership and like people are dying. So like, I don't think these are easy behaviors to change. Like I'm looking at the things I listed, like taking undue credit assigning undue blame, devaluing dissent. And then this is what I thought was interesting. In the research, they call them contextual amplifiers. So what is the environment in which this thrives, right? Uncertainty, depletion and exhaustion. This one freaked me out.

38:19Brené Brown:Systems that reward spectacle. and self-promotion.

38:28Brené Brown:It's like I'm in church. But the reason why I thought this was so huge is because as a leader in organization, like I have a team in an organization, I can choose every day whether we build a culture that rewards spectacle. Like what I'm trying to tell my people right now is we've been grinding really hard for the launch of the podcast. but what I'm trying to like build into my team is this should never be normalized. We should not take our endorphins from grind. We should take our joy at work from groundedness, predictability and stability, not from grind. You know what I mean? Like we will have to grind at times, but there's less glory in that than we, what we think.

39:17Brené Brown:Do you know what I mean? What do you think? I'm having a hard time disagreeing with that which is a little disappointing given how often we are not on the same page no I think that's right sorry what I should have said was I agree Brene well good I have a hard question for you bring it I was rereading the op-ed it's in the New York Times we'll link it in the show notes on the podcast oh we're gonna have show notes yeah yeah this is exciting Paul yeah Paul's gonna do it Paul's gonna do it where would you draw and this is for my own personal interest, where would you draw a line between, man, this is a narcissistic pattern of leadership behaviors versus self-involved or ambitious?

40:04Oh, that's a good question. That's a very good question. I think ambitious is easier to distinguish than self-involved.

40:13Brené Brown:God, me too. It's almost the outlier, right? Ambition? Yeah. Okay, so let's take ambitious off. Let's take... Oh, wait, you're taking... I was going to... Okay, go, go, go, go. Yeah, I know, I know, I know. The other two are more nuanced, don't you think? Like, those are really narcissistic trends versus these are... This person's just really self-involved. That's different, I think. Okay, so I think this is... It would be helpful maybe to get to the bottom of this by distinguishing between two flavors of narcissism, grandiose and vulnerable. One of them is named after your work. I reject that claim, but go ahead.

40:48One of them is named in a way that will feel very familiar to you.

40:51Brené Brown:Better. I think when I, historically, when I've studied narcissistic leadership, I was thinking about the grandiose kind. The larger than life. I am the most important person in the room. It is all about me. That's the aspect of narcissism that Lyndon Johnson scored highest on when political scientists and historians rated the American presidents. It's sort of the Steve Jobs flavor as well. But we forget that there's a vulnerable variety as well, which is the, it's more fear driven and less ego driven of, to go back to your point at the beginning, it's not just I'm afraid of seeming ordinary. It's a fear of being worse than ordinary, of being inferior.

41:39And it seems from my read of the research, vulnerable narcissists are extremely self-involved, extremely self-involved. But they don't walk around thinking they're God's gift to humanity. They walk around thinking, oh, no, oh, no. Everybody's judging me negatively. And I've got to bend over backward to please them and curry favor with them and convince them that, in fact, I'm worthy. And I think that that is a way of being self-involved that's different from kind of the grandiosity that we've been critiquing today.

42:11Brené Brown:Wow, that's really interesting. yeah but i think as it's still narcissism but still is malignant in my mind yeah it is okay so let me let me try one other way to get at your question then since you rejected that one just now she was like uh-uh i saw it you're you're no i i get it intellectually i'm tracking research wise not no i would never put that label on it i want you said malignant no i would say narcissism can still be malignant yeah yeah no i agree or are grandiose Okay. So I think here's maybe another crack at it, which is there's a whole body of evidence on how people become self-involved when they're anxious.

42:54So if you start to get stressed or nervous, you worry, you ruminate, your attention turns inward. That's true. And you need to self-protect. And that can be self-involved, but it's not narcissistic at all. And in fact, you may be telling yourself a story that you're protecting other people through your anxiety and the concern that you're showing. And so I think you can get to self-involvement through other paths than narcissism and extreme anxiety might be one of them.

43:25Brené Brown:Wow, that's really interesting because I will say that when I am in peak eldest daughter anxiety, aren't those memes rude? Instagram is calling me out every third scroll. But can I just point out, there's no love for the eldest son ever. We never even get mentioned. Yeah, but we get mentioned in my meme. My meme yesterday said, were you really a pleasure to have in class? Or were you the oldest daughter with an undiagnosed anxiety disorder? I was like, fuck you, dude. I don't even know you. I'm looking for shoes on here. Like, so be ignored. I think we should take away your Instagram password.

44:19Brené Brown:Yes, you should. If that's what you're being served. Go on. I am. And the next one was like, the oldest daughter could read a room before she could read a book. I'm like, okay. Like, hypervigilance has an upside. I always know what's going on. Next door, I can tell you if you need to know, I can keep us all safe. But I do think anxiety, I don't know, would you say like the vulnerable, I'm not as familiar with those constructs and the differences, but it seems to me through my lens, they're ultimately both about self-protection, right? Ego protection, whether it's because I'm not good enough or because I'm better than everyone else.

45:04Brené Brown:But this is what I always say about that. When I was growing up, my meemaw, my mom's mom, who lived in San Antonio, I would go stay at her house for a week, and she would say, whatever you want to do, you can do. Like, we could do anything. And I was like, putt-putt golf on Monday. We're going to see PG movies on Tuesday, because I wasn't allowed to see a PG movie until I was 16. Yeah, she took me to, what was the name of that, with Sally Fields and Burt Reynolds, the race car. Smokey and the Bandit. Yeah, I mean, like we did all the bad things. So she said, I'll take you anywhere, Brene. She called me sissy, actually.

45:43Brené Brown:I'll take you anywhere you want to go, sissy. But not anywhere where I have to stand in one place for too long. And as a child, you didn't understand like how standing in one place could be worse than walking. But at my age, I get it now. I can't stand in one place for too long. But I often think about people always used to ask me, so is the opposite of I'm not enough, I'm better than everyone? And I said, that's the pain of standing in the exact same place for too long. Like, I'm better than anyone and I'm not enough. Two sides of the exact same coin. It's judgment. It lacks complete self-compassion.

46:28Brené Brown:it lacks grace for yourself so now I'm like oh that's why Meemaw's legs hurt when she stood in one place for too long we try to jump out of I'm not good enough which is that vulnerable narcissism to I'm better than everyone else which is the grandiosity same thing it's a place of self protection and woundedness

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48:37Brené Brown:Wait a minute. I'm going to disagree. Hold on. I feel it coming. Oh, good. Wait. No, wait. Judgment? Say that first. Judging impairs judgment. So let me explain what I mean by that. Okay. So the moment that I judge you, I am no longer capable of looking at you through an even close to neutral lens. I've already predetermined what you're like. I have identified a list of flaws or shortcomings of yours. And at that point, I can't see you accurately. I can't see you clearly anymore. And so I've judged you instead of actually being an accurate judge of you. But what if I'm right?

49:16Then you are too invested in being right.

49:18Brené Brown:I'm asking for a friend. What if my judgment is spot on? Well, we were texting about this, but we didn't talk about it. Oh, that's right, because you said save it for the podcast. Yeah. Yeah. So, okay, so I think that sometimes you have strong reactions. Oh, shit, you mean this conversation? Yeah, do I have this conversation? Sometimes you have strong reactions to people you've just met. Is that a fair statement? Especially if they're influential.

49:51Brené Brown:I don't like fancy people. When I meet people that are either celebrity, power, influence, I'm going to be suspect. And I understand the suspicion. But if you've already then sorted them into a box and said, okay, they must be narcissists. No, I don't say that. What do you say? they're dodgy as fuck man that's different I would never label someone as a social worker I don't believe in pathologizing I would just say you're dodgy and no alright so but then anything else you see them do is going to be filtered through that lens and you become it's confirmation bias it's a self-flowing prophecy right yes I knew you were going to go right into confirmation bias Adam confirmation bias grant go ahead and you're doing it right now I love it.

50:51Brené Brown:Oh my God.

50:58It's a minor miracle that we're still talking, isn't it? No, I like it. No, what's interesting actually is I think it's, I wonder how much of it is confirmation bias and how much of it is maybe the evil cousin of confirmation bias, which is desirability bias.

51:14Brené Brown:Desirability bias, yeah. I know this one. So do you all know the distinction between the two, confirmation and desirability bias? Okay, here, this is going to be a 30-second crash course. Are you ready? It's powerful. Confirmation bias is I see what I expect to see. Desirability bias is I see what I want to see. And I wonder what worldview leads you to want people who are powerful to be dodgy. Okay, so... Do you want that? I guess is the first question. I don't want that, but let's be, okay, if we're going to go here, let's go back to when you and I were together at a conference. Uh-oh. And I said, I'm waiting for someone to walk with me to this thing.

52:04Brené Brown:And you said, you don't like to go by yourself or what? And it was a friendly question. And I said, I don't know. It's weird when I go by myself. And you said, why? And I said, because I'm going to get stopped many times. And especially because this is a conference where there was a lot of powerful people. And they will unload on me, demand things from me and ask me. And I don't know them, but they'll just be like, you know, and you're like, really? Because we do the same thing. And that never happens to you. And I said, why don't you walk with me? By the time we got there, he was like, hell no.

52:43Brené Brown:this who why are these people stopping you what what it what what is going on here so I think it's not I don't want it's not desirability or confirmation bias it's self-protection because I don't think people know that I'm super introverted and if you stop me and you you tell me really hard and heavy things and then you're and if anyone in here did it it would probably be, it would be okay. It could be maybe awkward. Well, not everyone, but most people. Yeah. Yeah. But like, but when, but when it's an influential or famous person, they'll say, can I get your cell phone number? I'd love to talk to you about this.

53:24Brené Brown:You know? And I'm like, I don't have a cell phone. I mean, I'm a terrible liar. I'm like, they're like, email. And I'm like, I don't email. Let me, let me give you, let me, I mean, Here's my fax number. Yeah, fax me. I fax you. So I think it's self-protective. Yeah. But it's also, it's like I see dead people, like that movie. That makes sense. Yeah. Spoiler alert. Yes. I see how people sometimes with influence have entitlement and are open to collecting people like me like they collect tchotchkes. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. And so I'm suspect. So why does that happen to you and not me?

54:21I think I can think of three possibilities. One is gender. Okay, we're done. No, but there's more. Two, you know, I tend to talk mostly about data and you go deep into people's emotions. That's true. I think that maybe creates a more personal or parasocial connection. But then three, also, you're a social worker. You actually help people. You can, right? And they think you're a therapist.

54:48Brené Brown:I mean, people do think I'm a therapist, which I'm like, would you want me to be your therapist? I mean, like, I have a therapist. but would you want me to be your therapist? No, you would not. I'd be like, and he said, what? No, we're done. Let's text him right now. You know, like I would be terrible at that. You're the psychologist. Yeah, but not the kind who actually helps anyone. So that's not, raise your hand if you've been helped by Adam's work. Like that's not true. I think it's the topics I study, but I think it's gender. I think a lot of it is gender. Okay, so then the question is, you make a judgment of that person when they very inappropriately dump vulnerability on you and maybe also show some entitlement and even some narcissism in what they ask of you.

55:37But is that an indication of their character? Or is that a moment that showed you a problematic tendency they have, which may coexist also with some virtues along with that vice?

55:51Brené Brown:or do I give a shit which one of those it is? Like, but honestly, that is the question. Like, do I care if that's your character? Do I care if it's a temporary lack of judgment? I don't care. Just keep walking. Like just, I actually, I actually, I am a good person, FYI. You don't have to defend that. No, but I don't love it. And I don't, the only thing I can tell you this, The only time I felt like this before was when I was pregnant. Oh, and everyone wants to touch you with no permission. And people would come up and touch me. And I was like, ooh, a pregnant body is not a public body. A pregnant body is not a public body.

56:36Brené Brown:You know, like, you know, back then when we were learning all the new language, like, this is my safe space. Quick aside, I had no idea that even existed until Allison was pregnant with her oldest. and the first time someone made a beeline to rub her tummy, I was like, wait, you think you can touch a stranger just because she's pregnant? And I was like, can I go up and just like start rubbing? How is this suddenly okay? And so I started drafting an op-ed that was called Please Stop Touching My Wife. And nothing came of it, but this is horrifying. And so you feel this when, yeah, okay, I get it.

57:16So here's the question. What is that?

57:17Brené Brown:I'm being diagnosed by the psychologist in real time. I'm not qualified to diagnose you and I don't have a diagnosis. I think the self-protective instinct is understandable. I think the question is then what do you do with it? Because I think your impulse is to just not be in the room. And we're talking, let me decode. We're talking about, do you want to go to this event where there's a lot of people like this? Right. And I'm like, never in my career I've ever been, nor do I want to start going now. I'm waiting for Longhorn football season. I'm waiting to start tubing when it gets warm. No, I don't want to be with these people.

57:54Brené Brown:At the same time, the one time I've done something like that, it was a really interesting learning experience. But you know what? You know what I don't like? This is happening in real time. Is it awkward? What is now? Well, no. It wasn't before. But you know what I don't like? I don't wanna be a part of a world of exchange and transaction. Like I have no interest in power, celebrity. I can make my own money. And so I think I worry that that world

58:35Brené Brown:is transactional and that we see evidence today of people that made very dangerous decisions to get close to power. And this is what narcissists do, right? They use people for their own gain. Yes, that's it. That's the connection. I knew it was going to tidy up in a bow. A big Texas taffeta bow. Here's the thing, though. I think, so your self-protective response is mostly to opt out when you get invited to address a group of world leaders or CEOs or Hollywood people. And I get it. And there are people who will say, you should not be in that room. And there are people who always are in that room.

59:24I don't want that room to exist without voices like yours in it.

59:31Brené Brown:Oh, sweet. I mean, that's really thoughtful. That's really kind. You all are with me, so I'm just going to pile on a little bit more because I want to be able to say later, Brene, remember when all the people at South By were cheering for you showing up? Where is the moral compass if you opt out and only the transactional people show up and they run the world? That scares the hell out of me.

1:00:01Brené Brown:Bummer. Can we do it not during football season? I'll settle for that one. Yeah, no, I have watched you do it and navigate it really well. And you are the least power proximity person. You. What's the opposite of a star fucker? A star runner. Join me. Yeah, I think it's probably my reaction, even when we're talking about narcissism and leadership. It's just, it feels so dangerous because at the inside of it, whether we're talking about U.S. politics, we're talking about global leaders, we're talking about leaders and organizations, at the bottom of it is dehumanization. And it's about transactional access to power, access to influence.

1:00:54and I feel like that has just never,

1:00:59Brené Brown:it has always been so cautionary to me. And I don't, and I think part of it is like my pathological introversion that I'm not good in those situations. I mean, I am, I know what? I am actually very good. You're not good in those situations. You don't like them. I'm very good in them, at them actually, but it's very costly for me privately. And I think, I remember the first time, I was the first Random House author in the history of Random House to do a book tour without a book signing. And so the first time I went, like launched in LA, the book tour did. So I looked up and I said, I won't be signing books today.

1:01:36Brené Brown:I'll be happy to stay an extra 30 minutes or 45 minutes and talk to you about the work. But I'm not going to sign your book because there's nothing, my signature has no value. And I need to go home whole to my kids and my husband. and that leaves me less than whole. And in that second, every woman in the room jumped to their feet and started clapping. I wasn't paying attention to what the guys were doing, but because I just saw women. Because there were four guys in the room at that time? No, there were a lot, including I think the Seattle Seahawks. But I think the women were like, it goes back to the bank account.

1:02:17Brené Brown:You know, it goes back to, I can go to those rooms and I can talk and, you know, do those kinds of things. And I don't like, I wouldn't mind if they were here and I talked and I left, but the cost for me is high. Yeah. I just, I've never known you to be someone who is unwilling to pay a temporary price for potential lasting contribution. No, I'm not. I'm happy to send them a book. and listen to the podcast, the curiosity shop, wherever you listen to your podcast or on YouTube.

1:02:54Okay. So I think, I think this,

1:02:58Brené Brown:this recording is going to launch as our third podcast. So just, I'm curious because we have 22 seconds left. What do y 'all think? Podcasts? Yeah. We, we don't always get along. We always get along. We always get along. But we don't always agree. But I think that's okay today, right? People need to be able to get along and not agree, potentially. But I'm grateful for you. The gratitude is mutual. I'm not going to make a cheesy heart symbol. I like you. I really do. I know y 'all had a lot of choices about where to go with your fancy badges. but we were really excited about launching the podcast at South by Southwest and really excited to do it with y 'all.

1:03:44Brené Brown:And so we're grateful. So thank y 'all. The Curiosity Shop is produced by Brene Brown Education and Research Group and Granted Productions. You can subscribe to the Curiosity Shop on YouTube or follow in your favorite podcast app. We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Discover more award-winning shows at podcast.voxmedia.com. Thanks to Canva for their support. With incredible tools to boost your design and productivity, Canva can help turn that idea into an actual thing. From presentations powered by AI to social media posts, from logos to websites, it's time to turn that idea into something real.

1:04:21Brené Brown:Canva, it's the thing that makes anything a thing. Learn more at canva.com. Thanks to SaaS for their support. It's an important question to ask of any corporation. Are the company's values aspirational or are they actually showing up in what people do? Data and AI leader SAS lands in the second category. SAS has 50 years of experience helping people and organizations make better decisions with data. And they brought that same rigor to AI, building accountability and human oversight into the technology itself. Visit sas.com to learn more about SAS's commitment to responsible, trustworthy AI. That's sas.com.

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