Overconfidence and the Art of Knowing Yourself

22:43Brené Brown:I mean, I just think it explains what's happening in this country.

22:50Brené Brown:that if I were a despot, if I were a dangerous leader, the first two things that I would go, the first two things that I would vilify are skills that increase metacognition and empathy. And that is exactly what's happening from the far right today. I mean, really, I think the first two things I would do is I need to make sure that people don't get too good at thinking or too good at compassion or empathy, especially for vulnerable populations. If I can vilify any type of critical thinking, if I can vilify the process of deeper thought and then make sure people don't care for other people, I could rob you blind.

23:45Brené Brown:I mean, really, that's the first place I go. I got to be honest. That's the playbook. And I think you're right. I think the far right may have started it, but I think the far left is doing the same thing. Same more. Cancel culture? Cancel culture is a refusal to empathize with somebody who did something you find objectionable? No, I think I agree I agree I also I think what the two Have in common Is The inextricable connection Of thought To moral indignation Say that again I think what Extremism on either side have in common is fueled by self-righteousness and thought is inextricably tied to moral indignation.

24:45Brené Brown:I think both of those things don't get us out of the peril we face right now, but I only see one side of them. I only see one side of the far. I mean, I'm not, I don't identify with either side of those ideologically or politically. But yeah, I don't even think it is helpful to rank which one's more dangerous. But I do come from a social work perspective where are the vulnerable people getting hurt and at whose hands? And so I do have a bias there for sure. And maybe it's a bias and maybe I'm just right.

25:23Brené Brown:I need to Ilingu a little bit. But okay, let's get into how metacognition, and this is really speaking of an interesting kind of political connection and also social connection. Let's talk about what Denning Kruger is. I've learned a lot about Denning Kruger actually from you, from your podcast and from your books. So why don't you walk us through what it is and what it isn't? Okay, so the original finding is that the people who are least knowledgeable or least skilled at a task are the most likely to overestimate their knowledge and skill. So the people with the worst senses of humor are the most likely to overestimate how funny they are.

26:13The people who struggle the most in emotional intelligence are the most likely to exaggerate how great they are at reading and managing emotions. The people who do poorly on a trivia test are the most overconfident about their expertise. And the list goes on and on and on. And this has been documented in so many different domains. But I think it's really important to caveat that this actually doesn't happen to complete novices. If you're a total beginner, you know you don't know anything. It's when you gain a little knowledge or a little skill that you start to get dangerous because your confidence rises faster than your competence.

26:48and then you can start to get trapped on what is sometimes called Mount Stupid, where you're at this point of very high confidence that is not matched by your own capability level. And then you're basically ignorant, but arrogant. And I think what scares me about that a lot is at that point, you've lost metacognition, right? You believe you know things you don't, and you cannot see the errors in your thinking. I think flat earthers are sort of classic Dunning-Kruger victims. How'd I do? What'd I miss?

27:26Brené Brown:I think it's really interesting. One of the things that I remember when I first came across the research and kind of did a deep dive on it is this idea of dual burden in Dunning-Kruger. Like you don't know and you don't even know that you don't know. I got to tell you from like, so this is one of the hardest things I think to lead. If you're leading or managing someone who's got some Dunning-Kruger bias around their own ability, it's a very hard thing because they don't know that they don't know, literally. And so I find it to be very frustrating for people. but I am going to tell a quick story about how I had done in Kruger.

28:16Like how, so when I first started pickleball, I, I had, I played tennis for 40 years.

28:24Brené Brown:And so the first time I went to go play, you know, it's, everything's ranked by beginning, intermediate, advanced. And so I, you know, schlepped over to the beginner thing and was kicked out of the beginner group almost immediately. Not because I could play pickleball, but because this was not my first racket sport. I understand how a ball hits the face of the paddle. I understand I can hit balls. I've done that for many decades. So then I was like, oh God, I'm really good at this. I'm actually going to be excellent at this. So I went over to Advanced and signed up for Open play in advance and lost every game.

29:04Brené Brown:And then someone actually told me, I thought I was just having a bad day, but someone actually said, and listen, if you're playing pickleball, I'm not saying that 95 % of white men over 50 are going to coach you without being asked, but I'm going to say, if someone's coaching you when you haven't been asked, 95 % of the time, it's going to be a white dude over 50. And one of these came up to me and said, listen, it's not fun for us when you're playing up like this. You don't, you shouldn't be in an advanced group. And I, well, first of all, I was really embarrassed a little with a, with a little bit of shame rising because I hated that I overestimated my ability.

29:45Brené Brown:But what was interesting is I went to the inner, inner, the intermediate group and I kind of, that's where I should have been, but I immediately paid for an hour for a coach to watch me play. And there was a, this was kind of when duper scores, like your score ranking, like UTSA, if you're from tennis or whatever, like your score ranking, but you know what games you can be in and it's your tournament stuff. And so I said, I really want to be, and I think of myself right now in this beginning phase as a 3.75. And he said, you're a 3.2 on your best day if I compiled all of your best moves into one game.

30:28Are we on a one to five scale?

30:29Brené Brown:We're on a, well, it goes up, but like for someone like me, you know, I'm going to probably max out at 4.5, you know? And so I thought, oh my God, why? And he said, it was interesting because he gave me some information and he said, you're going to do this to the ball. If you want to be a 4.0, they're going to do this to the ball. You're hitting baseline drives and staying back at the baseline because you're a baseline tennis player. The game pickleball is won and lost at the kitchen. You're not coming up. You are slamming the ball into your opponents from midcourt and they're slamming it back on your tennis shoe string because you don't know how to reset and drop a ball.

31:07Brené Brown:And at that moment, the Dunning-Kruger was gone because I had the skill to predict accurately what my level was. Does that make this story make sense? Oh, this is so good. David Dunning says that when you lack the skills to produce excellence, you usually also lack skills to judge excellence. And so what you were doing was you were building that second set of skills so that you could figure out where you stood on the first. Okay, you have to slow down. This is going to be really important for people. So say it again and get explicit about the story. Okay, so David Dunning says when you lack the skills to produce excellence, you often also lack the skills to judge excellence.

31:59So your pickleball skill level was not at excellent.

32:04Brené Brown:No. But also your knowledge was really low. Yes. And you couldn't even gauge what excellent looked like. You didn't know enough about the game to figure out where on that spectrum you were. And what you were asking the coach for is a bunch of information. You were gathering data points about what excellence looks like. So you could then put yourself on the map. And I'm assuming after you put yourself on the map, you then had a navigation plan for how you were going to move forward. Oh my God, I did. There were like eight skills I had to improve. So I took two every six months. And it's interesting because, and I'm just going to make this aside.

32:39Brené Brown:I love pickleball. It is not going to ever have the viewership of tennis for this reason. You have to be a very good player to understand and appreciate what you're seeing on a pickleball court. If you're watching professionals. You can just walk out of the womb and go to Wimbledon and watch center court and understand, Jesus, these are athletes beyond belief. You don't understand what it takes to do what the professionals are doing on a court in pickleball unless you play pickleball. So everyone who watches it thinks, oh, I can do that. It's like ping pong. It's like giant ping pong, you know?

33:16Brené Brown:So this is really interesting. Well, I think part of what's interesting about this is it makes me think about the fact that it's harder to gauge your own knowledge or skill level in tasks that are more complex or more subjective. Say that one more time. Say that sentence one more time. If you're doing something complex or if there's not an objective way to score it, it's easier to fall victim to Dunning-Kruger. It's easier to be overconfident when you don't really know anything or you're not very good. So let me give an example that stands out as we talk about this. I think nobody thinks that they could win.

33:59Nobody thinks they could outrun Usain Bolt or Allison Felix as a sprinter. Nobody thinks they could do a sub two hour marathon without being a world-class runner because the times are really objective. and I can sit there just going all out on my treadmill and realize I can't even sustain for a mile what the winners do for 26.2 in a marathon. Super clear. Calibrated.

34:25Brené Brown:You're calibrated. Oh yeah, okay, wait, meta. So right now, meta cognition calibration. Okay. Easy when there's an objective standard that you can benchmark yourself against. I made the same mistake that you did in pickleball in ping pong. I have good reflexes. I've always had good hand-eye coordination. I grew up being one of the better ping pong players of anybody I played. And I always thought, gee, my athletic limitations that have plagued me in every other domain, ping pong is probably something I could get really good at if I ever focused on it. And last year, I went to a charity tournament.

35:04No, you did not. I did. It was in Philly, and they said, bring the family. So I went with a couple of our kids, and it was a ton of fun. And I went in very confident. And I got crushed 11-0 by a semi-serious player who trains with pros. And then there was a world champion there. And I said, okay, I've got to try my hand. Let me see how far off I am. it took me three tries just to get my paddle on their surf. And not, not only did I suddenly realize how far I was from being any good at ping pong, just the, the amount of work that it would take to get there. I don't think I could physically pull it off.

35:53I don't think I could transform my mind and body into that skill level. I'm like, okay, this is, this is way harder than I thought. And I think that ping pong is simpler than pickleball in a lot of ways. But it's still complex and subjective enough that I couldn't tell where I stood. And I didn't know all the things I would need to know and get good at in order to actually be decent at it.

36:15Brené Brown:This is so interesting because we have such a competitive ping pong family. So we have ping pong tables. We have a ping pong table in, I guess, what's theoretically a formal dining room in our house. because like, first of all, no, I don't want to have anybody over. And two, if I have someone over, we're not doing anything formal. So we just said, fuck it. I'm putting a ping pong table there. And so we're very competitive. But it's interesting when I play people, we have to, first of all, we have to play, it's on. Like we got to play some ping pong. That we can do. Yeah, that we can do. But I play a very flat game.

36:51Brené Brown:And so when you get to really good people, it's all speed, spin and angle. and it's like, I can't answer a serve either. I can whip up on some people in my family, not my 20 year old son at this point, but because he's a spinny guy, you know, but it's, this is so interesting. So let's, okay, so let's take this out of paddle sports and I'm going to tell you another Dunning-Kruger place for, no, it's not Dunning-Kruger anymore. Or what do you call it if you thought you were good at it, you learned you sucked, and it's true that you suck, and you're never going to be good at it? This is one of these areas for me.

37:35Time estimation, which really matters at work.

37:38Brené Brown:This is not a ping pong pickleball recreational fun thing. Like, I am terrible at time estimation. Oh, you're talking about the planning fallacy. Yes. where in the original studies, it took people on average three to four times longer to finish a task than they estimated. But I have a Dunning-Kruger with a planning fallacy rising. Like I know it's, it's, I was, I've been trying to apply the same kind of calibration techniques where you write down how accurate you think you're going to be. You do it and you see how off you are on your prediction. Like that's one of the skills that, you know, helps you develop metacognition and get over Dunning-Kruger, right?

38:30Brené Brown:Prediction, performance, debrief. Prediction, performance, debrief. My prediction is always wrong on time estimation. My performance sucks. And the debrief, I'm not interested in even journaling. which are you are you wrong in the standard planning fallacy direction though that you you think you can do things faster than you really can yes like yes and i get frustrated with i mostly think other people should be doing things faster

38:58like for example that's a different conversation no but for example like we were going to have some

39:05Brené Brown:when charlie was in high school some of the water polo team parents over for something informal because again, my ping pong table's in the formal dining room. But we were going to have them over. And about an hour before they got there, I told Steve, I don't think there's enough color in the yard. I need you to run to Home Depot and get some flowers and plant them before people come over. And listen to this. Wait, no, think this through with me for a second. Flowers, why aren't you growing faster? No, listen. I'm on the clock. He said, listen, I'm not doing that. They're going to be here in an hour.

39:37Brené Brown:And I said, it'll take you 10 minutes to get to Home Depot, 15 minutes to pick out the flowers 10 minutes to go back that's like 35 minutes and you can plant them in 20 minutes I don't get the problem go ahead yeah I can't help you there yeah we didn't get the flowers I'm just going to say obviously and he said I'm so happy to add color to the yard I'll need one or two days in advance Are you going to grow them? What do you think this is? Impatience? Yeah, I was going to say, I don't think either of us is patient at all. But what's interesting to me is that this is a repeated challenge in the same direction.

40:26So you know that you underestimate how long something's going to take. It happens. You've held yourself accountable by scoring yourself. And then what? Doesn't it bother you to repeat the same error over and over?

40:39Brené Brown:No, I'm just trying to find faster people.

40:45Brené Brown:Okay, you know what? You sound like half the managers I've ever worked with. Okay, let me tell you what I do do. And then we'll have to come back because we do want to do the questions. Here's what we have done. This is a tool from Scrum, our Agile processes that I love. I'm obsessed with a lot of Scrum tools. We call it at B-Berg, Brene Brown Education Research Group, that's our organization. We call it the turn and learn. So in a meeting, we will say, okay, here's the project. Everyone understands the parameters and what we're doing. Everybody write down on a post-it how many months we think this is going to take or weeks or whatever.

41:23Brené Brown:And we'll do it in weeks because I already get anxious if we use months as the time increment. I like to use hours, but they've got me down to weeks. So weeks. and on the count of three, we'll turn them over. And we do that to avoid like, you know, halo effect because people will see mine first and be like, oh my God, she's the boss and she thinks we can do it. So when we turn it over really quick, everybody's got the number of weeks, including like the engineers and the operations people. And mine will say two weeks and theirs will say eight months. So, but I lose. So, so - Well, do you? I don't, I do.

42:00Brené Brown:Oh yeah, I do. Of course. Yeah. I do. I respect the process and I respect the fact that I'm not good at it. But I'm not able to change it because if I wrote eight months down on my post-it, I would just be bullshitting to show how much I've grown.

42:17So the underlying belief hasn't changed. The way that you form your expectations is flawed in the same way that it was before.

42:25Brené Brown:Maybe the anxiety disorder is still in place. I don't know. Like, maybe it's just I can't stand it. Like, let's go. Let's go. But I have learned to defer to the judgment of people I respect and trust, who both hold a sense of urgency and a practical, excellent operational mind. So I like what you're doing for calibration, which is you're not just anchoring on your own judgment. You're bringing in the wisdom of crowds. But you've also recognized that crowds vary in their wisdom. Yes. You found people who are good at this specific skill with the kinds of tasks you're doing. Yes. Yes. Which makes a lot of sense.

43:07Brené Brown:Yeah, because I look great. Look at me. Look at me, Brene Goo, using my own mind to help. You tell yourself no one wants your college-era band tees, but on Depop, people are searching for exactly what you've got. You once paid a small fortune for them at merch stands. Now, a teenager who calls them vintage will offer that same small fortune back. Sell them easily on Depop. Just snap a few photos and we'll take care of the rest. Who knew your questionable music taste would be a money-making machine? Your style can make you cash. Start selling on Depop, where taste recognizes taste. Where is Daredevil a minor?

43:53Don't miss the return of Marvel Television's Daredevil Born Again. So what's next? I've been liberated We're gonna take this city back Over Medicaid In an all new season Now streaming Only on Disney Plus

44:06Brené Brown:They're hunting us It's time we started hunting them I can work with them This should be tons of fun Marvel Television's Daredevil Born Again Now streaming Only on Disney Plus Okay I want to go to some questions For the second half We only have about 20 minutes left maybe Let's go to some questions I do too Okay. I had one other thing I wanted to just bring up here before we leave this. Yeah, that's great. Before we leave our friends Dunning-Kruger and the idea of metacognition and thinking about our own thinking, any final thoughts on that before we go to questions from our first episodes? Okay, two quick things on this.

44:50The first one is when we were talking about Dunning-Kruger earlier, I kept thinking about Elon Musk. And how the people who love him and the people who hate him are both missing part of the story. When I see Elon, I see Dunning-Kruger. I see somebody who is brilliant at hardware, which makes him really effective at electric cars and rockets, but does not know that he is ignorant when it comes to software. which is one of the reasons why Twitter or X or whatever it's called now has run into so many problems. And I see his detractors saying, Elon's a moron. No, this is domain specific. I hear his supporters saying, Elon's a genius.

45:38And I say, no, that too is domain specific. And if I were in his orbit, the thing I would try to help him do is calibrate. how would you how would you tackle that Brene and I I would love to just hear how do you think about getting someone in a position like that who's not calibrated to look in the mirror I

46:00Brené Brown:I'm torn between like unleashing right now or being more thoughtful and saying I don't know him I've never met him I couldn't assess but if we took someone like that I actually think I think the problem that we're talking about now is maybe a first cousin of metacognition, especially when it comes to Elon, which is self-awareness and emotional regulation and emotional awareness. so I don't think this is a I I don't know I don't know him so I don't know if this is a cognitive battle where boy how do we get someone to understand that their expertise is domain specific and if we could get them to understand that they might be able to apply some of the same things that are maybe more intuitive about their domain expertise to things where they want to learn and be better but I think I would have to say that your lack of self-awareness and your lack of emotional awareness is so great that not only are you not able to engage in smart metacognition, you're making decisions that hurt other people.

47:19Brené Brown:And unless that's intentional, we got bigger fish to fry. What's your second one? Okay. Second one is, I think there's just a bit of a cautionary note as people work on metacognition, which is on the one hand, there are real upsides of analyzing your knowledge and explaining what you know. We know from a long history of research on the teacher effect or the tutor effect that when you explain things you know to someone else, you actually understand them better. And you also get better at remembering them, which is great. We also know from research on the illusion of explanatory depth that when you try to explain something that you think you know, you will find out really quickly when you don't.

48:05And the studies on this are hilarious. You ask people, you can do it right after you ride a bike or flush a toilet. How do the gears on the bike work? How does that toilet flush? And you will hear people start to stumble and stammer and realize they don't have a clue how the basic machinery they've been operating their whole lives actually works, unless they've really carefully studied it. And that task, right, of saying, well, let me actually try to explain what I know. is to me the ultimate way to calibrate. Wow. So maybe, wait, we should just pause there for a second and say, if you don't have that wisdom of crowds, if you don't have that wise crowd available to you, like you do, Brene, or like you put together, or you're not sure who to ask, right?

48:50Just the practice of explaining will help you figure out what you understand and what you don't. And I think that's probably something we could all do regularly.

48:58Brené Brown:I love this. Okay, I'm going to add a third cautionary tale before we move on. Oh, wait, sorry. I have one other cautionary note on this part. Perfect. You go first. Okay. Mine would be to say that you cannot metacognition your way out of a Dunning-Kruger bias alone. There's no amount of studying your own mind around a topic that will increase your competence in that topic. It has to go hand in hand, metacognition plus actual skills building. So in pickleball, I couldn't just understand, oh, this is why I'm overestimating myself. And then all of a sudden, oh, I'm better at pickleball. No, I have to do the metacognition work of, oh, this is why I'm overestimating myself.

49:54Brené Brown:Now I need to learn how to reset from midcourt. I need to learn how to get up to the kitchen faster from the baseline. I need to learn how to do a better drop. So overcoming overestimation is not just about understanding your thinking, but building skill in that domain. And I think that's very important. I think that's really important because there's been some interesting research out of the University of Edinburgh where they had people that had real kind of measurable Dunning-Kruger around a topic. They really thought they were much better at it than they were. They skilled them up in metacognition, but did not give them any skills in what they thought they were really good at.

50:45Brené Brown:and the metacognition alone didn't pull them up and out. You got to do the skills building too in that area. Agree or disagree? Hard agree. Okay. I think that is spot on. And it actually sets up the one other thing that I think needs to be just put on the table as a caveat, which is in the short run, getting better at metacognition can make you worse at the skill you're trying to build. Yeah. Oh God. Wait. Which, I mean, just so frustrating. You cannot open this door. We cannot change topics yet. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Why is that? I hate this. It drives me crazy. So my favorite demonstrations were with golfers, where if you ask a golfer to explain their stroke, they actually perform worse afterward.

51:39And I think this is easier to unpack with our racket sport example. So if you ask a tennis player, like, walk me through the mechanics of your serve, then their serve will get less accurate. and what seems to be happening there is you've taken a skill that was mostly automated and you've all of a sudden made it conscious and trying to think through the steps actually interferes with your ability to effortlessly execute those steps on autopilot and I think this is a version of what happened to Simone Biles in Tokyo in the 2021 Olympics when she got the twisties there's a lot of research showing that when you have performance anxiety it makes you more self-conscious and it starts to take what might be a routine that you normally do on autopilot and, and make it more salient.

52:30So you're actually thinking through what am I supposed to do now? And that makes it more likely if you're a gymnast or a diver, for example, you get lost in midair. Um, if you are a baseball player or a golfer, you might get instead of the twisties, they would call it the yips, but it's the same basic thing, which is all of a sudden And I'm feeling anxious and I start to pay attention to, well, what is my arm supposed to be doing here? What is my leg supposed to be doing? And that interferes with my ability to smoothly just go through the motions. And I don't think this is just true for sports.

53:01I don't think it's just true for physical challenges. I think that any time you do something well automatically, as you start to analyze it and describe it, you may take a step backward before you can take two steps forward. What do you think?

53:15Brené Brown:Oh, my God. So we are inside now. Look, this is a really important conversation. And it's a conversation that I think I'm learning from and hopefully our listeners and people who are watching on YouTube will learn from. I say we pause the questions for the next episode and just finish up on this because you've opened the door into what I think should probably be a full episode. but I have to say that you use the word twice. You use the word interfering twice that you're, that when you start taking, when you stop playing from habit and you start working on something to improve, you get interference.

53:59Brené Brown:And now you're inside of my favorite, a book that came out 50 years ago. I read every year, every sports team that I work with, I use every leadership team. Can I guess? Guess. Is it the inner game of tennis? With Timothy Galway. Yes. So the formula there, and we actually just did this with a group of 200 senior leaders. The formula that I think about all the time from that book, which is just, if you haven't read, it's a classic. I mean, it's just so good. But I read it every year. The thing that I always think about with that is performance equals potential minus interference. and one of the big, we'll save that whole book for another conversation, but one of the things I think about all the time is, you know, performance equals potential minus interference.

54:48Brené Brown:When you are working on skill development in a new area, that is absolutely interference. When I'm working on, you know, not staying on the baseline, but getting to the net very quickly in pickleball. I will get to the net and then I'll get slammed with a ball that I can't even answer because I'm not in flow. I'm not in flow. And when we see athletes who are winning at the highest level of performance, they are in flow. They are not thinking about the mechanics of a shot. They are relying on their training and what they've done and they're trying to eliminate interference. They are not trying to break down every shot.

55:32Brené Brown:They are not looking at their footing before the serve. They are not thinking about how they're taking a corner in F1. They are not thinking about who's down the pitch and where are they in relationship to the goalie. They are not doing that. And so helping people who are listening right now understand you are going to go backward before you go forward in metacognition and skills building. We would be remiss without saying it because even if what you're working on is having more connecting conversations with your partner, staying curious with your children, it is not going to feel good when you're trying it and learning it.

56:17Not at all. And I mean, I ran into this when I was, as a shy introvert, trying to get better at public speaking. I was working with a speaking coach who said, you don't have to shout every sentence. You're overcompensating for your fear that you're going to be too withdrawn and you're going to be boring. and it's actually modulation and variety that will keep your audience engaged and you need to work on that. And I found that as I worked on that, I would stumble over my content. Yes. I tripped more on the stage. I was so focused on trying to get my pitch right and have awareness of and control over my tone of voice and the way that I was articulating things and how much emphasis I was putting in different places and even pacing, right?

57:12That everything else fell apart and I felt like I was getting worse as a speaker. But I had to get to the point where some of those adjustments would happen naturally. I didn't have to think about them anymore in order then to sort of put the pieces back together. And I would say there was probably a three-month period where I felt like I couldn't give a talk without being completely in my head and ruminating about everything that was going wrong. And it was really frustrating, but it was a necessary backward step in order to unlearn a set of habits that were holding me back from being able to deliver my message effectively.

57:51And I didn't think about this as a metacognition problem at the time of, oh, I'm taking something off of autopilot that was automated incorrectly. And I need to now rewire it in order to put it back on autopilot. But yikes, that would have been helpful. Where were you 10 years ago?

58:09Brené Brown:Where were you when I was like slamming every ball from the baseline? Like, yeah, like I could knock the paddle out of your hand, but it's a different sport. And so, yeah, this is such a good conversation. Let's save the questions for next time because they're really good and they're complex. And I think we can learn a lot from them, but we've covered a lot today. So any key takeaway for you today from our conversation, starting with Eileen, metacognition, Denning-Kruger? I think we've covered most of my key takeaways, but one thing we didn't maybe make explicit that we should is as I listen to you talk about Eileen Gu, I'm struck by how rare it is for people to even admit out loud.

59:01that they think about their own thinking and they work on improving their thinking. And I think the idea of normalizing, hey, my brain didn't come with an operating manual. It didn't come with an owner's guide. I need to spend a lot of time observing how it works, figuring out what it does well, what it doesn't do well, so that I can achieve mastery over it, or at least not constantly interfere with it and have it interfering with me and my goals. I think that's something we should all aspire to do more of.

59:34Brené Brown:I mean, I really, I love that for your takeaway. And I'm going to, I plus that one. And I would say for me, as we normalize the discomfort and the building of this, I think my takeaway is better skills plus better metacognition equals better calibration. Metacognition without skill or skill without metacognition is, there's a fragility to it that we need to be cautious about. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's a wonderful way to wrap. Yeah, I love it. See you next time. The Curiosity Shop is produced by Brene Brown Education and Research Group and Granted Productions. You can subscribe to the Curiosity Shop on YouTube or follow in your favorite podcast app.

1:00:27We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Discover more award-winning shows at podcast.voxmedia.com.

1:00:32Brené Brown:Thanks to Canva for their support. With incredible tools to boost your design and productivity, Canva can help turn that idea into an actual thing. From presentations powered by AI to social media posts, from logos to websites, it's time to turn that idea into something real. Canva. It's the thing that makes anything a thing. Learn more at canva.com. Thanks to SAS for their support. It's an important question to ask of any corporation. Are the company's values aspirational, or are they actually showing up in what people do? Data and AI leader SAS lands in the second category. SAS has 50 years of experience helping people and organizations make better decisions with data.

1:01:12And they brought that same rigor to AI, building accountability and human oversight into the technology itself. Visit sas.com to learn more about SAS's commitment to responsible, trustworthy AI. That's sas.com. Spring just slid into your DMs.

1:01:27Brené Brown:Grab that boho look for that rooftop dinner, those sandals that can keep up with you, and hang some string lights to give your patio a glow up. Spring's calling. Ross, work your magic.