The Framework for Leading With Both Care and Accountability

24:37Brené Brown:It was, it's been so helpful for me personally and professionally. Would you agree or disagree? I'm kidding. These are actual questions that we have not rehearsed. Okay, we haven't rehearsed anything, y 'all. Yeah. That your whole framework is driven by curiosity and generosity. Yes. So it actually only works with those components. And a couple of things. I have an assumption. So when we're talking about generosity, how do you define generosity? You have a definition. Oh, I have a definition. I was like, oh, we, generosity, we always say what's the, you know, it's the assumption of positive intent.

25:25Brené Brown:So we talk about generosity as part of big, what boundaries need to be in place to be in my integrity, to make positive assumptions about your behaviors and your actions and your thoughts. So for me, it's the assumption of generosity. Yes. And you have a more specific definition you use often, which is this idea of that people are doing the best that they can. Oh, that one. Yeah. So one of the things I want to say is about, is there a difference in a nuance in saying that I believe that people are doing the best that they can versus saying I'm assuming good intentions? Yes. I do think, yeah, I'm not feeling like that this week.

26:00Brené Brown:That's why it didn't come to me. Yeah. I'm like people. Just to be honest with you, but it's not a healthy place to work from. It is the hardest part of my research that confronts me every day, is working. You're so good at it, it's irritating. On some days, on my good days, but this idea of knowing that, believing that people are doing the best they can with what they've got. Yes, with what they've got. In the minute. And that it's not that they're not capable of doing things better or learning, but to assume that people are doing the best they can. I just going to give you a quick primer on how that came up.

26:40Brené Brown:I called bullshit on that. I did not believe that people were doing the best they can. I spent a year doing a qualitative study on who believes that and who doesn't. And basically, just from a research perspective, the assholes do not believe people are doing the best they can. And generous, grace-giving people believe that people are doing the best they can. And my favorite question actually came from my husband, where I said, do you believe people are doing the best they can? And this is after I came home from a focus group of people in prison who were mostly in recovery, who was like, yeah, I think people are doing the best.

27:18Brené Brown:I think I'm doing the best I can with what I got right now. And I was like, do you believe it? And Steve was like, I'm not sure, but my life is better when I assume people are doing the best they can. Yes. Yes. So what? Yes. So I want to say there's a nuance there about why that's different between assuming best intent. Yes. Say it. So when I am assuming best intent, are you ever going to a meeting and they say like with the norms, what we're going to do is we're going to assume everybody's best intention about everybody. Now there's a power play in that. Because if someone says something, you know, something really off, like Anna says something that's really off and that's an affront.

27:58If I have to default to, I'm assuming, the best intent, she has the best intention, now I don't really hold her accountable for what she said. Instead, I swallow whatever it is that I notice that impacted me because the first thing I'm going to say, wait a minute, Iko, let's just assume that Anna's got the best intentions. It's very different from saying she's doing the best she can right now because now I have permission to actually hold her accountable. God, say it again. And then the curiosity part comes into play because part of holding people accountable, have any of you, when you hear the word accountable, you think, yes, accountability.

28:36Or when you hear accountable, you think that's scary and about to be put on a pip. I'm on the first one. I saw a lot of hits on that second one because accountability sounds scary because the way we do it, and exercisers have been learned and conditioned to do it, is that it feels punitive. Yeah. There's going to be shaming, et cetera. So the accountability can be done with generosity. And that's why those two go together. And with that, by my just being curious, and not assuming best intentions, but my being curious and asking Anna, hey, when you said that, what was it that you meant? Tell me a little bit more because I feel like I didn't understand that.

29:14By having Anna go back and replay and think about what the hell did I mean when I said that, that's holding her accountable in a way that's really out of curiosity so that she can actually think about it and she's like, oh, okay, well, this is what I think I meant. And then I can say, oh, okay, well, this is how it landed because this is what this word means for us, blah, blah, but I understand what you meant. So now I get to share with her. I don't say, you know, that thing that you said, it was blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, where you're not necessarily assuming best intent, but I'm also not thinking she's doing the best she can right now.

29:46I'm not being curious. And curiosity actually is a result of, um, reflects care. Because to be really open and curious about something somebody's saying. Now I'm a recovering attorney, litigation attorney, so I had to learn to ask questions in a way that weren't a yes or no because you're trained don't ask a question that you don't already know the answer to. But for me to be fully open and curious, it feels really different because now I'm listening for connection. Now I'm listening to really know that I don't know what she meant. Totally different person for me. And now I'm going going to be open to what Anna actually says.

30:21And I'm like, oh, okay, I get it. And now we're actually in greater connection because I gave the gift of this critical care of curiosity. I say curiosity is care because you take time to listen, right? You have to take a beat. You have to suspend the stories that you're telling yourself. You have to be open. You have to have a degree of emotional agility to be able to do that, especially if in some way I was activated or landed in a certain way. Curiosity is care. And generosity, believing somebody's doing the best they can, doesn't mean I'm not going to hold them accountable. A lot of times we think with words like empathy and generosity, it means that I can't hold somebody accountable.

30:57But they're not mutually exclusive. And the way of how to carry them both so that accountability is not a scary thing. It's actually a thing that we do to grow. I'm getting smarter, and I also am having greater connection with Anna. And one of the things with Brene and I, when people are asking about even our friendship and this idea of don't people get it wrong sometimes don't they not blah blah my my way of weighing it with somebody's are they willing to learn in the moment and listen and give me the care of being curious and Brene's probably one of the most curious people I know where she's like huh okay but she's also going to call bullshit and say I don't I don't think I agree like I don't want you to fold like a folding chair I want you to actually bring some rigor to it so that I can understand you better.

31:46And in that, it's not always going to be roses, right? Because if I understand that somebody has this value that is like the antithesis of mine, I might realize I need to reset boundaries. I'm not just going to say, oh, we were really curious. And she said some shit. She said some stuff that I don't check.

32:01Brené Brown:I mean, I don't even know why you're trying because you're I'm going to win that thing. So, yeah, I just do. I'm not recognizing you with those language shifts, but go ahead. We're trying not to have any Morse code going on. So I'm trying to ask. But lawyer. So it's really great to understand somebody better and to be in connection versus them having to cover or hide. Or for me to just feel like I have to take whatever somebody's serving me. But I want to at least be clear on what are they serving me. and is it a story I'm telling myself and how do we hold this relationship? So yes, the framework presumes generosity and curiosity which require emotional agility.

32:44They require the ability for you to slow down. They require you to be curious about the other person. They require you to self-interrogate and those aren't things that are easy to do and we're woefully underskilled at that.

32:58Brené Brown:You know what I think is so...

33:04Brené Brown:Yeah, sometimes when I just listen to you talk, I just want to cry. You're really, you've been really important to me. Yeah. Thank you. I get real mad real fast. And you can get real mad real fast, too.

33:25Brené Brown:But I think this idea of curiosity and generosity as acts of care and acts of connection that also don't exist without accountability is kind of the heart of how I experience you as a person. It's how I experienced you professionally as a coach and a facilitator, and it's the heart of this. I want to say it one more time because you and I talk a lot about, we're talking about woefully unskilled. One of the things that really came out in strong ground, which I think people struggle with the most right now, not one of the things, is paradox and the ability to hold the tension of seemingly opposite things.

34:16Brené Brown:But I think you are just like a bull in a paradox China shop. You don't really care whether people do it well or not. You're like, look, you've got to understand curiosity, generosity, or care. And care does not exist without accountability. Think about that for a minute. That's hard work.

34:46Brené Brown:When you think about, when you said woefully underskilled, which I really like that framing. I'll be using that. I'll give you a quarter every time I say it because it's so nice compared to like, we suck ass at this.

35:02Brené Brown:But woefully underskilled, give me a yes or no or weigh in any way you want on the following. Self-awareness, is that one of the woefully underskilled things that are required? Absolutely. Emotional regulation? Absolutely. Nervous system management? Yes. Mindfulness? Yes. Anything else that I'm missing? These are big skills, right? I think in practicing all of those, they all require the ability to pause. And when you're talking about with Amy Webb and what she was saying, Like the more complex we get, the more complexity there is in society, the higher the requirement is for us to pause. And the only way that you can move from reactivity to responsiveness is to have self-awareness.

36:04The only way you can have self-awareness is to understand how your body responds to things, which is the nervous system regulation. It's the somatics aspect of it. It is what your breath is telling you. It's where you sweat. It is also then this cognitive part of who is this person to me? And one of the things I talk about in the book is the different levels of listening. So most people understand like listening to hear.

36:31Brené Brown:Oh, gosh. me. Okay, if you're a note taker, warm it up. Like, get your pen ready. Is this where you're going to talk about third? Yes. Okay, this is. It's in your book, y 'all. This is wild. But we have the channel one, which is like the listening to hear, right? We have channel two, which is listening to understand. But channel three is very different, and it's listening for connection. Because what I noticed in coaching and facilitation is that with we prep the person to think about how do you want it to be? Not like the outcome, but how do I want it to be for me and Anna? I want to still be in relationship with Anna.

37:09I don't want to hurt her. I want to understand her like this idea of listening for connection. What I noticed is that people have a whole different choice of vocabulary words they use when they're thinking about connection. Some things I'm not going to say to somebody when I'm thinking are words I'm not going to use. The eye contact is longer. The pausing is more substantial because I'm creating space for that person to enter. I'm no longer centered on me, but I'm centered on that person, which means everything changes about the energy and the conversation. So when you said the degree of self-awareness, my mindfulness changes, that almost comes in right away.

37:52And if you're in a moment where I've got two teenage boys where you're not like, oh, and if I look at them, I'm looking at them like when they were babies or young and that nourishment and that care, I voice everything about how I hold them in the conversation changes. And so this idea of the care that you give people when you're listening for connection changes everything. And I don't think I've ever seen it not shift the way a leader or person shows up or a person talks to their, you know, partner or spouse and I say, well, we're going to go to channel three listening. It's almost like you see their whole body shift.

38:28Now it's not like I have to win. I need to know how am I going to respond. They're not going to give up on me, all the bullshit that I need in the book. And now you're just with that person and you're being who you really hope to be in your most aspirational form.

38:45Brené Brown:Isn't that good? I mean, let's just pause. Like, yeah.

38:52Brené Brown:Okay, so what I've called you before, and I've said, I mean, I have to have this really hard conversation with someone we both know, and can we talk about it for a minute? You would say what? How do you want it to be? Yeah. And I was like, I want to freaking win is what happens. I want to win. I want to be understood. I want full disclosure from the other person about their sucking choices. And then you say what? And then I say, how do you want it to be with that person? So it's never really about the issue, right? It's not really about the issue. Anybody who's a coach knows that it's never the issue.

39:37It's all these other things. And when you go back to, well, how do you want to be? So you ask a person, you know, in this, it wouldn't have been applied in this case, but the idea of like, how do you want to be as a leader? and if they keep talking about these transactional things, I want to be the best. We want to have the highest production and blah, blah, blah, blah. How do you want to be? I would say to you, I want to be clear, kind,

40:02and I don't need to be liked, but I want to be clear and kind.

40:07Brené Brown:Yeah. So I would ask you, okay, how do you feel right now as you're talking about it? I want you to go to the issue that's at hand. how do you feel when you think about that? I don't want to talk about how I feel. Just tell me what to say. What I will say may be really different from what you're going to say. This is exactly what she does. Is this helpful? Yeah. So I don't want to talk about how I feel. Just could you just, could you text me what to say? And I'll say, yeah, let's take a beat and let's go on the phone right now because what I say is not going to necessarily work. It's not my relationship.

40:39I don't care about the relationship. I just need to know what to say. Okay. And I think that you know exactly what to say. but let's walk through it. Why do you think you, I know what to say? Because I have unconditional positive regard for you. And I know that you are unconditionally resourceful.

40:58Brené Brown:Yeah. I just start crying. You're like, I don't know. Yeah. So this is really one of the things that I just have to like, you know, like when you're in a role play and you have to pause it when you're facilitating to tell the room what's happening. Like one of the things that Ico has taught me the most of that's in this book that is I can never unsee and I'm really not good at, but I'm working on it, is transformation and change requires expansiveness.

41:37Brené Brown:You changed me with that. And even right now, what you're doing is I'm just trying to push you faster. Just tell me what to say. That's great. I don't need, I mean, my body's like, man, but who cares? Like, just can you tell me what to say? Look at her right now. She is not engaging. She's going like this. What are you doing? What's happening? So I do, can we go back to the scenario? Because I want to, I do want to go back to that. And I'll tell you why afterwards. When you think about, let's just call this person Beth. This conversation you want to have with Beth. Yeah. And the thing that happened.

42:13Yeah. I want you to go back to that. How did you feel in the moment when it happened?

42:22What I would probably say is pissed off. Okay. Yeah. Pissed off. And how did it feel? Was your heart beating fast? What was going on?

42:29Brené Brown:Yeah. I mean, I get like my armpits were tingling. My heart was beating fast. I couldn't swallow. I was getting tunnel vision. Yeah, I know that was hard. I want to just take a beat and let's think about how do you want to feel when you're with Beth? I don't think I can do this without crying. She's not moved. She's not laughing at my jokes. She's just not, she's like, yeah, she's just, she's not moving. And it's, it's, what's bouncing off of her onto me is I'm not going to do this with you. I'm asking you a question. So how do I want to feel with Beth? Like ideally, like what would be my vision, my pie in the sky?

43:17Brené Brown:I want to be calm. I want to be thoughtful. I want to work from a hypothesis of generosity. I want to be generous. But I also need to be clear. and I want to hold someone accountable in a way that facilitates change, not fear. That's probably what I really would like the most. You believe you can do both? I'm not sure. Not right now. So what does it take for you to get to the place where you'd be able to? Honestly, I'm going to need to work out. I'm going to need to work out. I'm going to need to go walking or play pickleball. I'm going to need to sweat and move my body. I'm not going to be able to do it right now.

44:12That's good. You know yourself well, what you need.

44:18Brené Brown:Yes, I do know myself well. But I'm feeling time pressure to do this right now while I'm mad. And I would ask you about what's the driver behind that time pressure. We will go through that because we do know that one of the things we fall into is false sense of urgency. So I would ask you about what is the driver behind it. This is the hardest stuff you've ever said to me in our friendship, is my false sense of urgency. I want to get out from underneath these feelings that I'm having right now. So it's driving. I'm telling you what you taught me. Before, I would have said, I don't know, I just need to do it right now because I'm coming out of my skin.

44:56Brené Brown:I think what I've learned from you is probably firstborn daughter with undiagnosed anxiety kind of things. And I feel like I'm coming out of my skin. And if I do it now, I can be calm again. Yep. So you can get that initial relief. Yes. I need some relief. Yes. And it may be at the expense of what?

45:26Brené Brown:being aligned in my values.

45:31So just this is a reason why we don't fix and we don't jump in because a lot of us, when we're jumping in and we're being the fixer, it's for our own dopamine head. It's not in service to the person in front of us. I mean, was this like a...

45:45Brené Brown:I mean, like, yeah. Yeah, I mean, I got to say that, like, you are so embodied in this work that it's so scary to sit across from you when you're in it. Like, I want to make a, I want to talk about Ben and Wes or, like, her kids or my kids, you know, like, but, like, yeah, this is hard for me, right? Can you tell it's hard for me, really? Oh, thank you. I'm having a hard time. So I just want to say, as much as we talk about AI and how fast things go and the complexity and it's so complicated, blah, blah, blah, the thing that is the hardest is managing this machine here. And I would rather jump into a system and be like, we're going to do this, this, this had to be done yesterday, than manage the most complicated system we have on Earth.

46:44but we want to take about AI and all these other things, but we don't want to learn how to manage and embody ourselves. And most of us live from here to here, and if we actually had to be in our bodies all the time, how different would the world be, but we would be dealing with something that's so much more complex than AI and the strategy and strategy, it's culture, right? It would be so much more complicated, and we're more willing to do that externally than managing this here, which is what we are accountable for. We give up that accountability so that we can just jump on the chat. That's what it told me to do.

47:22That's what my coach told me to do. That's what my mom told me to do. Because guess what? When people tell me what to do and they give me the answers and the fixing, guess who doesn't have to be accountable? That's right, because I can be like, they told me. And we're scared. We talk about how it's hard to hold other people accountable. A lot of us don't have the fortitude to hold ourselves accountable. So I'd rather go to ChatGBT or call my coach or my therapist or, you know, yell at my mom or do whatever, or the kids are driving me crazy versus managing this right here. So the book, you know, this book is really about self-leadership.

47:55And we want to read an HBR article or MIT's long review to tell me how to be a better leader. But I don't want to live in this body, hold myself accountable for my inner landscape and what happens when I'm in liminal spaces. the most complicated thing to lead is yourself. And it's easier for me to read, I'm going to read what Wall Street Journal said today about being a leader and doing that. So if it's that easy, we would just do one through three of what HBR tells us to do all the time, right? But the idea of I have to live in this body and hold myself accountable and slow myself down and understand what are my thoughts, what impact is that going to have, own that in certain spaces I might not have power, it doesn't matter how many credentials you have, our own and other spaces, I do have power, and now I'm accountable, and I can't say, no, I don't have power, and now I have to be awake at the will and be responsible for what I'm doing, how I'm impacting people in a room.

48:49I can't pass that off. How much scarier is that than saying, oh, AI is coming to get us, and we've got it. It's a complex world, and so blah, blah, blah. You know, it's easier for me to do that than to manage this. damn yeah

49:05Brené Brown:yeah I don't I don't there's something did you notice or is it just me but did you notice the slowness it is so antithetical to the world because we're actually the ones who get to, we get to pump the brakes, right? But do we have the mindfulness and presence to be able to pump the brakes? Or is it easier to say, it had to be done yesterday versus asking, huh, what's the driver for that? Does it really have to be, what would we, what would the trade-off be? It's easier to be in the frenzy of X, Y, and Z. We like to feel my worth is based on how much I produce, how quickly I produce it. And I make that, give the answer and do all these other things versus what does it take to pump the brakes and knowing that we're all the metronome for our own system.

50:08And if you're leading team, you're the metronome for that team and you give people permission to slow down. With my kids, I'm the one who gets to show up and be slower so they can slow down and give them that permission. But many of us don't self regulate and take accountability for that. And instead we go get on the program, this MPC program of gotta do it, gotta blah, blah, blah, blah, without asking the questions or creating any type of friction or rigor in a system or even imagining what would that be like if I did.

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51:52shifts, the career pivots, the mental load, and the stuff that usually stays behind closed doors. And at the lineup, we're bringing that conversation live. It's a full day of programming that celebrates this amazing league and its players. Three stellar podcasts, four legendary hosts, one stage. Get your tickets for the lineup at voxmedia.com slash lineup. That's voxmedia.com slash lineup. See you all Friday, July 24th in Chicago.

52:22Brené Brown:It's interesting. We took your framework of anchored, aligned, and accountable. And not only are we trying to do it individually in our organization, but we're trying to build what we're calling an above the line, anchored, aligned, and accountable organization. So not just at a micro level, but at a macro level. And the productive challenge, either from me or people on my team around tell me about the urgency

52:57is fundamentally creating breakdowns

53:02Brené Brown:that we're having a hard time recovering from. We have built such a mental model. You know, and a mental model is not only how you see the world, but how you assess your value in the world and at work. We have built such a mental model around urgency. I have built. I mean, I'm the founder, right? So I have built, I have built, and then surrounded myself with like-minded people who have helped me build a mental model of urgency. And when I've taken your coaching and done some of my own work around, can we take a breath for a minute and get curious about why we're doing this so quickly? people are having to excuse themselves and leave a meeting.

53:49Brené Brown:Like there's a real nervous system reaction to your framework. Yeah. Yeah. We're not used to silence one. It's really uncomfortable. Anybody feel like they have to feel in the silence every time it gets quiet? Like I got to jump in there. So we're not used to silence. not used to pauses we're not used to somebody actually asking us something and waiting for the answer and being really curious about why x y z we're not used to that and so our nervous systems there is a requisite of a reset it's either you're going to try something new and get different results or you're going to stay on the same train and burn out real fast and still be pointing at everybody else about why or you're going to have a reset to think about how you want it to be and aspire to that.

54:43I will say, because there's practicality in businesses too, about sometimes things do you have to be done at a pace. And one of the things I do know about the framework is when you have done the work of being anchored into your values and really understanding what they are, what drives you, what are the behaviors, actually helps you to make decisions more quickly. Oh, I agree. It helps you to make hard decisions quicker, knowing that, hey, this may not be how I want it to be, and I don't love it, but this is how I know it has to be. It helps you to understand and be intentional about the compromises you might make, because it's really a privilege to be able to every moment be like, I'm in my values and I'm working at this company and I'm still in my values, because you do have some trade-offs, but it helps you to understand, recognize what they are more quickly, and for you to be able to negotiate and say, I don't like it, but I'm going to do it at this moment for this reason.

55:34So if I'm coaching somebody, they're like, I can't leave the job, So I'm doing this and making this decision and being in this space, even though the friction with who I want to be is here, because I need to pay for my insurance for my kids, because I need blah, blah, blah, blah. But that's really different than just staying on a train and being reactive and not taking a beat about why. Because I'm being intentional. I know what my values are. This is why I'm doing that tradeoff. And this is why I'm showing up like this right now. I talk about some of the stories and look like I don't. I believe in people showing up as they are.

56:06And the moments when I have not, I know exactly why I didn't do it. Exactly. Yeah. I know what the cost is, and I've done the calculation, but I know why I'm doing it. And that's how you live a life that's not a life of regrets. Because you know why you did that.

56:21Brené Brown:You and I together have taken probably thousands of leaders through values exercises. And we do the same values exercise. and one of the things that you and I talk about a lot that is I think you've helped me see it clearer than anyone that I've done that work with because we facilitate together often is we'll start the values exercise we we know from the research 20 years of data from because we've taken 170 ,000 people from 45 countries through their dare to lead we have a ton of data We know that when you're going to work from values, having 10 values is not helpful. Having around two values is really helpful.

57:05Brené Brown:And we're generous in the facilitation. You get to pick 10, but then you have to back into two. What two are the places where all the other eight are forged, right? So my two values are faith and courage. What are your values? Do you want to share? Justice and loyalty. Justice and loyalty. So one of the things that we're always struck by is how many times, in fact, it happens most times when we're facilitating this, people will say, do you want our personal values, our professional values? And we did an article together recently about the book. And can you talk a little bit about your answer when, because I said to you, why do you think that's a question?

57:51Brené Brown:And because of the way the Dare to Lead is kind of set up, we're mostly facilitating with the C-suite and their direct reports. And there are other facilitators that work across the organization. That's usually where we are. So these are people with a ton of experience, you know, 25 years, 10-year, you know, working. And I asked you, why do you think people ask that question? And can you share your answer? Because I thought it was really connected to what you're saying right now. This idea of we've learned how to bifurcate ourselves, right? So you're at home, Stephanie, and then you're at work, Stephanie, right?

58:25You put your war paint on. By the time you get into the door, you're somebody totally different. But the reality is you're the same person in the same body. And that gap, the bigger that gap is between who you are and show up at work as and at home, the more you're going to be in the doldrums and it contributes to the burnout and all these other things. but this idea of knowing that you are the same person and giving yourself permission when I get home when I get to work I'm not all of a sudden not at home I go who kind of panicked three times when there was a police officer who was driving behind me and I'm wondering what's going to happen next I'm that same person when I get to work and I open I turn on my laptop right and the idea of giving ourselves not only the reality recognition of that's we're the same person but also giving ourselves grace to make sure that both those people, that one person, but both the identities of at work and home can be folded together.

59:21And when you have folks who are saying, are my values different? What about my values at home and at work? You know how much contortion that requires? And the exhaustion and the acknowledgement that we ask people to do here is knowing what those top two are and how they drive how you show up in all spaces. Knowing that you're not always going to be able to defer to what your choice would have been, but knowing why in this moment I might have to make a different decision. I'm the same person and I reconcile, I understand why I'm doing this. But can you imagine, I just want you to think about the pretzel people are contorted into to say I have a different set of values between when I'm at home and then when I get to work.

1:00:11And I can just tell somatically from your expressions, you all see that's some real bullshit. And it's hard. And one of the reasons why I'm asking Brene earlier about our scenario was, how do you feel in your body? Your body's not going to lie. Oh, I hate that part. That's a hard part. Yeah, it's not going to lie. and how do you want it to be and the relief people get. So if you need some intrinsic motivation of showing up how you want it to be, it's the next question for, I would have had, Brene, well, what's the delta? What are you required to get to how you want it to be or what's getting in the way?

1:00:48You can have some reality checks around that. What do you mean? So if someone says, I don't know why can't I do both? I mean, if I say, why can't you show up like that with Beth now? And it takes forever because sometimes it's not that I don't know, but I'm scared to say it. Because what if I do tell Beth and then she says this to me, like the idea of possibility of hurt or rejection. What if she goes and tells everybody? What if, blah, blah, blah. It's all the things that get in the way of us being courageous leaders because it's not the fear, it's the armor, like all of the what ifs. But once somebody has named it, now it's there.

1:01:27Can't change what you're not aware of. But once I realize what the barrier is, I'm like, oh man, what do I have to do about it? And I'm willing to do it. Once I realize what the castle in the sky looks like, how I want it to be with Beth, how I want to feel, I don't want to feel pissed off, my shoulders are tight and blah, blah, blah. I don't want that. How do I want to feel? I have an idea of how I want it to feel. So now I'll know it when I get to that place. But I also can name what is getting in the way. And most of us, how do we jump right into, this is what you need to do, one, two, and three, but not actually bringing the person back into what their solve is and what their intrinsic motivation is.

1:02:03Because the answer I would have given to Brene would have been like, we're shit, right? Because it would have been my fix and my thing, and I would have felt great and walked off. But you would have still been sitting with it. But you have now an idea of this is how I want it to be. And you realize for me to be able to get there, I need to do this other thing because you know yourself well enough. A lot of people don't know I need a workout, I need to do this. They don't know it. So now we need to walk through that. And all these gaps in how we don't know how to lead ourselves. But we expect to read an article and to get it, or to call our friend and for them to fix it, or for us to call our parent and ask them, or to ask CHAT GPT.

1:02:41But we're the ones in this body and are accountable for it and have to live in it. But we want the shortcuts.

1:02:51Brené Brown:You're not good at the shortcut, I've got to tell you. you are the long way around which I yeah you are the direct path into what's real and I just we're out of time can you believe it I was going to have her solve some more of my problems but is she amazing let's give it up for Iko let's do it let's give it up standing O

1:03:22Brené Brown:yeah Yeah. Awesome. If you need a coach, don't call her. She busy.

1:03:32Brené Brown:Thank y 'all. Thank y 'all for listening. I hope you took something out of this that was meaningful for you. Again, just blown away by Iko's coaching mindset, her abilities to be present, to listen for connection. Just a real mentor for me. We'll be back next week with a brand new episode. We have fun things planned and we're grateful for you joining us. The Curiosity Shop is produced by Brene Brown Education and Research Group and Granted Productions. You can subscribe to The Curiosity Shop on YouTube or follow in your favorite podcast app. We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Discover more award-winning shows at podcast.voxmedia.com.