Why Sports Matter Even When the Game Doesn’t with Roger Bennett

31:35Again, not a spiritual man, very dead inside. But when I watched them, these 40, 50, 60 ,000 of them in Atlanta, the woman I was with who'd never been to a game before, they were losing. They needed divine magic. They got divine magic. And the fans were so, you know, with shirts off. They do this thing with their hands, thousands of them do this. They're all singing, screaming, weeping. Many of them were weeping. she started crying too and i said you know why are you crying um she said it's like the greatest evangelical church um i've ever been to and jerry jones and the cow was like we need to get to that like that's levels and i do wonder to pull this together adam the viking row like there will be an sec team come college football who will do the viking row like the thing that started in the football from the Norwegian from the waking from that mindset it will carry through and so America will have this impact on global football in ways that I can talk about if it's interesting but also global football will leave its mark on on American sporting culture behaviors rituals and I think that's like one of the fascinating legacies of all of this but that it is you know that the overlap between collective religious experience and at its best, the divinity, the ecstasy of sporting euphoria is very, very interesting.

33:02Brené Brown:I mean, I'll never forget, I think I wrote about it maybe 10 years ago, a tweet that I saw from Chris Anderson of TED that just showed 95 ,000 fans, Liverpool fans singing You'll Never Walk Alone in the Melbourne Stadium. And all it said underneath it was when sport becomes religion. you know okay I have to ask these questions there's so many of them I'm going to ask this question I want to stay away from it but I'm going to ask it anyway because I need to know the answer to it there were some very difficult moments I believe in the world cup fueled by geopolitical realities tell me what your take is on the intersection between what we see on the pitch, the truth that's told, you know, the green never lies, the truth that's told on the pitch and history and politics.

33:57Brené Brown:What do you make of it? That's why I love it. I mean, that's the greatest part of it, isn't it? That football, and particularly the World Cup, holds, I mean, I wrote a book about it before the World Cup, We Are the World Cup, but it holds up a mirror It's a perfect mirror to who we are. It's a reflection of who we are. I believe this deeply. And the World Cup is the perfect expression of this, that when two teams take the field, and I think this is why it caught on in America in the way it did. I'm a huge American sports fan. But, you know, when the 49ers play the LA, it's a great game of football and it's a great matchup and there is history within the game.

34:40but there's the political reality when two teams take the field in World Cup play their team's histories, their team's cultures, their team's politics take the field alongside them and it's that depth that multitude that gives it its human beauty and I've always loved that I've always loved that about the sport I've always thought it was beautiful to be honest with Walt Whitman it contains multitudes Football, World Cup football, contains multitudes. And the reality is, as the world gets darker, South Africa 2010, I think, was for me just a beauty. I couldn't believe it was. I watched the first game.

35:23This continent that had never hosted a World Cup before, Mandela, late, late, late Mandela, his kind of shadow cast upon this welcoming of the world. Lots of doubt going into that. The violence, we were told, the crime, the electricity grid wasn't functional for the world. It was beautiful, that first game. And football felt like the fusion of the geopolitics, a fusion of the joy of a continent. The football was almost irrelevant. But the darker the world's gotten, the reflection is still there and it still shines and you still hold up and see ourselves. The reality is we might not like what we see.

36:04but I think football gives you that and that's the depths that I adore. We saw that in the beginning of the tournament, the Somali referee, and it feels like it was years ago. It really does. His tournament's been so long. Omar Artan denied entry into the, I mean, just barred, no fight, no anything. It was just like blocked, done. Okay, move on. That's who we are. That's who we are. The treatment of the Iranian team. By the way, the tournament was ecstatic and there's so much, I want to be clear, the tournament was a human ecstasy and I do, I can talk about that very, I've talked about that a lot in a lot of places but two things are true.

36:44The way Iran were treated were unprecedented. The host nation was at war with one of the qualifiers, Iran, who were meant to play games in Los Angeles and Seattle. They had to move their training camp last minute after geopolitical brinksmanship about whether they'd be allowed to participate or not. They had to move from the United States to ultimately a trained in Mexico. By the way, the Mexicans, the welcome, that was even in darkness, there's light. And that part of the story is beautiful. But Iran, they played in LA. That was very complicated because it's the Islamic Republic of Iran. And LA is the greatest density of Iranian emigres in the United States.

37:34And they're a symbol of the state, the Islamic State. But the players are also heroes. So we were there and it was remarkable. There was a lot of demonstrations around the first game. But once the game kicked off, many of the demonstrators were actually rooting for the players. It was emotionally deeply complex and fascinating to watch. But then they were told very quickly by American officials they had to leave almost immediately after kickoff and sent right back to Mexico. Again, a mirror to who we are. And then the United States team becoming a geopolitical debate where a player was red carded, sent off the best player striker.

38:16He just came on our show. and ultimately the White House became involved to compel his red card to be suspended. That was unprecedented and there's levels to that. I don't know if you want to talk about it, but it's a blight on the tournament, a bruise for our nation. It's tough for this team. It's how it will be remembered now instead of the beautiful, delirious play that they unfurled in the early games. The darkness is all there and thinking it through. I mean, football allows you to often see things clearer than just in the light of day.

38:51Brené Brown:I so much appreciated the conversations and the curiosity about history and the desire to understand more that I saw in my 21-year-old and my 27-year-old and my friends and neighbors. And I think what it brought up for me, too, in addition to the stories that we're talking about right now that you and I talked about on your podcast, is the cover of Time Africa right now. What does it mean to belong? And the fact that without birthright citizens, we wouldn't have no team in the U.S., you know, without, you know, you look at me, right? I mean, yes or no. I mean, it's just, and what does it mean to belong to a country and to a team?

39:39Brené Brown:And there's so much power. I mean, that's, I look at Spain and I think, I mean, there's just poetic and powerful insight around the gift of setting a long table. Yeah, but again, Spain is fascinating. They have this young star, Luminium out. This kid is 19 years of age. He is spectacular. I'm sure some of your listeners are aware of Lionel Messi. He's 39, still doing casual miracles. I mean, divinity, godhead. I'm being not hyperbolic. I'm almost underselling him. He's old. His moment, his last dance will come. You do not get to choose in life or in football when you have your end. That's one of the other things that I think is fascinating about watching football humanly.

40:33Cristiano Ronaldo, age 41, has shown us you cannot choose your end. You're not able to say, you know what, I'll have the hero's farewell. I'll have the Viking funeral, please. No, football and life do not give you that choice. He will be replaced. And probably the greatest contender, this 19-year-old kid, Lamin Amal. I mean, he grew up in deep poverty in Spain with a Moroccan side of the family. He's had to, and there's no joy. We've framed these stories joyfully. This kid has won everything already. And by the way, not just as a bit part on the team, he's a leader of every team he's on. It's like genuinely, I think of Joan of Arc, who I think about a lot.

41:19How did she become a leader at such a young age? What did she exude? What aura must she have had? Lemony Mal, he broke through at 15, was leading the teams he was on, was fearless. They won things. They won a lot of things. Winning the World Cup. And he didn't have a great World Cup. He was coming back from injury. But I do, when he won the World Cup, watching him, he's the face of this team. And I thought, what I thought was Alexander the Great's quote. But since I said it, I found out it was actually Alexander the Great's quote as bastardized by the diehard movies. He cried because he had no more worlds left to conquer.

41:53This kid, 19, is what everything, 19, bloody hell. But my point is on this one, it's gorgeous. His brother, three-year-old Kane, Yamal, is like the cutest. I mean, just a human meme in dumpling form. He's exquisite. You know, everything feels good. But a month ago, he was still protesting Islamophobia in Spain. He was still being very clear to the Spanish fan base. If I am your hero, when he scored his first goal, He immediately prayed as if to say to them, yes, I'm your hero. This is who I am. Love all of me. Love all of me. Not just the commercials face of me, but this is who I am. And I remember what you were doing in terms of your chance and your racism.

42:42And this is who I am in this moment. I'm going to remind you. I'm going to stick this down your throat. The complexity of life, it's everywhere. This is not just us in America with the Balogun thing, the red card that was rescinded, that was very difficult. And the thing that was crazy about that for me was it was objectively ridiculous. It's never happened before. Something happens in football and the government of any government. Like think about if Saudi Arabia did that. I mean, we would just be like, oh, my Lord. If France just were like, we didn't like what you did with Mbappe. Now the French government are going to get it.

43:18We would think it was ludicrous. it happened it happened here and we did a lot of media in the wake what was fascinating was so many people were rationalizing it because it was for us that was fairly fascinating it's objectively i want to say it's not just wrong it's ridiculous but because it happened to us emotionally that every show i did and i don't just mean uh like i was going on alex jones's podcast or something i mean like you go on you go on always like msnbc and there'd always be one dude who'd be like i Roger, I've got to say, I mean, it wasn't a red card. This is only fair, don't you think?

43:53When it happens to you, emotionally, you're able to repress. You don't always see the geopolitical. You don't always see the true reflection. And that's also fascinating to me.

44:07Brené Brown:Adam, I liked your post. I liked your post. You have to tell Roger your post that I thought what you posted in response to the red card flip was so good. Oh, thank you. It actually came because I was watching the game with our 12-year-old son. And I said, look, let's just set aside whether the red card call was fair or not. In sports, we accept bad calls. That's part of the game. And now we're seeing all these American fans saying, we have to do whatever it takes to overturn it. And I said, those aren't true fans. Because a true fan loves the sport more than the team. And that means if you're a real fan, you would rather watch your team lose fairly than win unfairly.

44:54That's the most beautiful part of this show. We just smashed it. It's beautiful and true and wonderful and a deeply minority opinion.

45:06Brené Brown:Well, you're with us. Only in America, not in the rest of the world. Adam, ask your final question, then I'm going to get to the rapid fire. Yeah, I think, you know, I think that the we've actually covered several of the questions we already had planned. But I think the question I want to ask, which which Brene really dreamed up is so many people, as you previewed earlier, were hopeful that bringing the World Cup to North America would be what finally lights the match and creates this incredible passion for for soccer or football. And as part of that, there was a real hope for a transfer of learning, that America would take something from the world and the world would take something from America.

45:54What do you think have been the biggest lessons in both directions? I mean, I think it's the most important question right now. World Cup's a circus. The circus has just packed up and left town. And it is an agony. It was very exhausting. I will say last night was my first night back home in about 50 days. And even though I was so happy to be home, so happy to be with my family, so happy to be with my dog, I got an itch. I missed the 11 o 'clock at night recording where we debriefed on everything. I missed the sense of connectivity with my co-hosts and with our audience, refracting their opinions, their feelings, their memories.

46:34And so I think it's twofold. Look, we've talked about the darkness and there was that. It's important to hold that and not airbrush it out at all. But by and large, it was a World Cup of love. The football was quite ecstatic, both for reasons of competitive fire, but also, I do believe this, commercially, a lot of these individual footballers saw America, saw the marketplace and wanted to conquer it, wanted to be the face of the World Cup like Pelé was in the 1970s. They came and they tried to bring it. You know, there was goals from Messi, Mbappe, Hive and was like, the big dogs, they're all barking.

47:13To me, the big dogs were all like, I'd like some of that Nike money. I'd like some of that Anheuser-Busch money. I'd like to, and God bless, the world was better because of it. So ecstatic on the field, but it was the off the field that I think is, is the thing that twofold. Global football fell in love with America as someone that loves America, that loves traveling around America. It's the honor of my life to wander around tasting every juicy Lucy, every form of barbecue, every extra, extra, extra hot wing, every lemon pepper wet. To see the world come and love America and the thing they were, they were not blown away by the skyline.

47:53They were not blown away by, you know, let's say our museums. I don't think I had a great summer. Not that many people were like blown away by the Art Institute of whatever city. They were blown away by the Waffle House, smothered and covered. I was in Atlanta by a Waffle House. I can tell you the line to get in, you would think the Beatles had reformed. They were blown away by buckies, by nuggets, beaver nuggets. Seeing these buckies was the European mind cannot comprehend in real life form. And they fell in love with, I think the thing that attracted me to America, at the sense of warmth and joy and hope when you become American like I did in 2018 you'll be in a room and I encourage any of your listeners to go to a swearing in of new citizens because you can anyone can attend and I think it's the most energizing way to reconnect to what's really important in this nation I wrote a book about why I moved here it's it's not impressive it's you know Tracy Chapman, the music of Public Enemy, John Hughes movies.

48:58Growing up in Liverpool in a very dark time for that city, America felt like a place of warmth and joy. But you'll meet people who crawl across deserts to get here. You'll meet people who flee civil wars, harrowing civil wars to get here. And it reconnects you to a sense of positivity and joy and hope. And I think the world did. And the world was faintly surprised that it did with the incoming narrative. The world felt a love for America. Brene, we talked about it when you came on. We needed this. You love yourself often through confidence, but sometimes that love needs to be rekindled by seeing others see the love in you.

49:38And then again, that feels truly, truly energizing. So number one, I think the world fell back in love or reconnected to the part of America because I don't want to pretend it's all this. that is that hope that I felt in that citizenship swearing in. And then the other thing is that America fell in love with global football for all of its joy, the rituals, the pageantry, the ecstasy, the complexity of it, the nuance, the noise, the smell, the memory making. I believe this deeply. You don't watch football, you feel it. You feel it and it moves you. It moves you and different things, different moments move you in that way.

50:23And the joy of the World Cup is that you're being moved at a scale unknown to humankind. Five billion, 200 million watch the Super Bowl, five billion watch it. And you're just connecting to, that's the good stuff. You're connecting. There's an interplanetary moment of memory making that you are, that you're tapping into. And I think between those two things, it all came together in Lawrence, Kansas for me, where that town fell in love with the Algerian team, which was beautiful. All of this love happened between the Algerian fans and the Lawrence, you know, rock chalk Algeria. When Algeria qualified for the knockout rounds were beautiful.

51:05I found it very moving. I found it very moving. The Algerian bus came back two, three o 'clock in the morning. The Algerian fans did what they did, which is just let off rockets, fireworks, crazy drumming, crazy noise. But if you looked at the footage, there were Algerian fans. They're also citizens of Lawrence, Kansas up at two or two in the morning doing the same. And you know in that moment, Adam, that, man, those people will tell their kids' kids of the summer that the Algerian team came and their minds were buckled forever. And that's the true beauty of this.

51:41Brené Brown:I still tell those stories from when I was like, you know, in elementary school and we watched, you know, Archie Manning's quarterback for the Saints in Tulane Stadium before, you know, I mean, it's it's these are the stories that make up the fabric of my family, of my life. It's fall. It's football. It's hunting season. It's also back to school. It's football. You know, so, you know, I just love it. Okay, are you ready for the rapid fire? I'll try. I think you're going to love it. Go on. What's one thing you're deeply curious about right now? Oh, how to sleep again for the first time all year is really, is the honest answer.

52:33just how to readapt to civilian life after this is for my whole year. And I don't just mean for me, but we have 120 people working with us, how to maintain the intensity that's driven us to this place while lowering that, the kind of war footing that we've been on for the past eight months to be able to win this thing.

52:54Brené Brown:I just have to say, if you're listening, it's going to be worth popping over to YouTube to watch this, to see the red-rimmed eyes that just poked right up and just said, I mean, it made me want to cry a little bit in his face. I will also tell you, Adam and I have both done a lot of work with NASA. Reentry is real. Reentry? Yeah. I mean, it is. I got the bends on my first day back. Oh, yeah. No, for sure. I think I got a shave for you. I did. I got a shave for the first time in about 12 months. You look very dapper, but I will tell you, it's hard on relationships. It's hard on teams. It's tough.

53:32Brené Brown:So best of all of our love for reentry. Number two, curiosity shops are wild and wacky places if you've ever been in one. They have all kinds of weird shit on every shelf. If you got to design your own curiosity shop, what would be one thing that would have to be in your curiosity shop on a shelf? Anyone who's looking at this on YouTube will know that I actually broadcast from a curiosity shop. And the one thing I take with me everywhere I go is Tracy Chapman's Fast Car album. It's a reminder that whatever's happening in your life, particularly in sports, when your team loses devastatingly, I always play Fast Car almost always within the first 10 minutes of defeat.

54:15because I do believe it's really important to know however sad you are feeling in that moment, however sad you think you're feeling, Tracey Chapman has seen worse, has lived worse. There's a reminder of what you're feeling. The most important, least important thing sports is and what real people are going through is so much more painful. So always that album.

54:38Brené Brown:Beautiful. I just want to say Holland definitely went to a curiosity shop because every curiosity shop in Texas, has a taxidermied raccoon. And I will say I was so proud in that moment as a Texan. He went to Wild Willies because we went right after he got that. We tried to buy a whiskey raccoon too, but they were sold out immediately. We had to make do of a squirrel. We had a squirrel, which we named Squirreling Holland. We jubbed with it for the rest of the tour. But man, that was savvy by him. He was showing America. I'm bringing you back with me. Oh, yeah. I'll be back. Oh, yeah. As a little tiny Texan at eight years old, my very first purse I ever got was a taxidermied armadillo that opened up.

55:23Brené Brown:You could put your shit inside. OK, what's one thing? I know. I know. And my nickname from my relatives was Double T because they thought my haircut looked like Tanya Tucker. So, yeah. So what's one? You talk about the darkness of being an Everton fan in Liverpool. Welcome to Texas, baby. Um, what's one thing you're really excited about right now? In life? Wherever you want it to be. I mean, I'm fairly dark. I'm energized by so much. I really am. I mean, this moment, this joy, this sense of wide scale, collective memory making. Um, I mean, it's been an incredible high. I'm so excited to be with me.

56:08You said it's hard on, on relationships. I'm so excited to be home with my wife, who I love, to be able to give her the support. She's got a book that's about to come out and to be able to flip the switch and to be able to support her in a way on this journey that she's been on. But I'm also really excited for, I mean, there are millions of new football fans, football curious individuals. And that's the greatness of America is that so many of our new listeners have like hated football. and then six months later suddenly have an Arsenal tattoo on their forearm and they don't know how it got there.

56:44And that journey of discovery, that's what's got me so excited for so many people across America that they're going to connect, they're going to experience, they're going to learn so much. And that's really, for many, the end of the World Cup was not an end, but it's really the beginning of a really beautiful life journey. And that, I've got to be honest, is why we exist. And it's just an honour to be able to witness.

57:09Brené Brown:You walked us. You walked millions of us on that, you and your team. So take that back to your team from me, that you walked millions of us lovingly on this walk. Isn't it amazing that you allow bald men on the television in America? It's just the greatest. I mean, two, two of them. I mean, like I'm pushing all the norms. Okay. Last question for you right this minute, as you're sitting there, Roger, what's one thing you're grateful for? Oh, I mean, I'm grateful for this insane journey that we've been on. I moved here to Chicago ridiculously because I watched the Chicago Bears when I was a teen and just was like, I want to go there.

57:51My family were butchers that left Eastern Europe and got off in Liverpool because they thought they were in the one tall building and the Liverpool skyline was New York. We were meant to come to America. That haunted my family they were always like oh we should have gone there liverpool was hard and they were oh we should be in chicago and then i finished you i was just like sod it i'm going i didn't know anybody um i moved to chicago i looked at a map there was a town park called rogers park i'm like i'll live there that's my name and i am i moved here just you know never left and it's ridiculous all of it that i've had this journey of possibility and i take it super seriously and i work really really hard but i also have a sense of just how ridiculous the whole thing is and to be able to hold those both side by side the seriousness of it and also be aware of this the incredible fortunate pathway i think is is really to live a life where you both give your everything but also never take yourself that seriously never cross over into into you know losing that that humility and so I'm very I guess that the answer this is the short answers and I've gone on for five minutes here as I try and process it with the two human beings that can probably process it back for me um I just a sense of of the lucky pathway that I've been able to walk here in the United States thanks for bringing us along with you we're really lucky to have that Adam last word oh I actually two two quick fire questions to add if we want to do it yeah all right But Roger, one question I have to ask you is, what's something you think the world should be curious about right now?

59:35I mean, the World Cup gave us so many. I was in Boston. We did a live show with Pedro Martinez and the Mayor, Mayor Wu, who I'd not met before. And she talked about how Boston was taken over by Scottish, the Tartan Army. It was delirious. It was fantastic, energizing. But it was also very profound football fandom. when I grew up used to be violent and essentially zeroed. Like you either win or you lose, but it's about the fight. This version of fandom was joyous. The boundaries were porous. Everyone was welcome. It was absolutely, I mean, Scottish people are immune to hangovers. So it was just an amazingly electric experience.

1:00:15And Boston was forever transformed. It became the capital of Scotland for 10 days. What I'm fascinated by is, and it was one of many I could go on, but this is the short answers. The communities that were formed here were the good stuff. They were porous. They were ones of welcome. They were ones of love. They were ones of joy. They were deeply celebratory, but they weren't exclusive. And I'm fascinated why America was so enthralled by the many of them. It wasn't just that the South Korean was the same, the Norwegian was the same. I mean, I could go on. Why did we love those manifestations of community and embrace them?

1:00:54Because they were, to me, They were the kind of communities that are so powerful. And it's how America saw itself as a wide open, joyous, all welcoming reality. And I'm fascinated. And again, you guys, I'm speaking to the right people. Why did we allow it? And why did we revel in it? And why did we lord it? And right now, it's kind of, it was almost the antonym to many of the current realities that we have. That's a great question. Okay, the other, we'll have to discuss it. Last one, last one.

1:01:28Brené Brown:Last one. We got a lot of Roger recover. Really quickly, Roger, you mentioned your wife is getting ready to launch a book. Tell us about it. It's a beautiful book. My wife works on confidence for girls and she's spent her whole, like I have for football, trying to understand how to build a narrative, tell the stories, build the contextualization. So my wife, Vanessa Kroll-Bennett, has worked on the issue of puberty and that transformative period. And so the book is a second book, but it's about how to build confidence. I mean, adolescents of all kind, but particularly with a slant on girls. And it is the greatest thing.

1:02:08I think if we can get over this and maintain confidence all the way through high school, I think many of the things I've talked about, many of the questions I've framed, many of the challenging issues in the world will be solved by confident, empowered, incredible women. Can't wait to read it. What's it called? I'll tell you the name in a week when it's official. I'll tell you, you're a beautiful human being. That's very generous, Adam. It really, really is. And I'm genuinely, what I do is very much in the shadow of what Vanessa does and to watch her build and create that meaning, which I think my stuff is the most important, least important thing.

1:02:50And hers is the most important, most important thing. So thank you.

1:02:55Brené Brown:We'll put a link if you're listening. We'll have a link to Vanessa's book on the podcast page. Big, big love. Big love, Roger. Thank you so much for being with us. And thanks for walking us through this amazing, exhausting 90-minute agony at a time. it's just I don't know you were the heartstone for me during this so thank you it means a lot to me and Brene we are going to go over to Liverpool this year and we're going to watch a game together and poof it's going to be I'm not sure I could handle going to the the derby is where the team I support and the team Brene supports play each other I think that would be a very bad idea for our friendship you'll report back but it'll be lovely whatever But whenever, Adam, it's lovely to meet you too, man.

1:03:46Really, really, really huge love. Big love, guys. Courage.

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1:04:20This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease. Chevy is called the heartbeat of America for a reason. With SUVs made to move with your rhythm. The versatile Equinox tackles your entire day. The spacious Traverse fits your crew and your whole weekend. and tracks bring style with value you can count on. All infused with tech that has your back. So your drive always hits the right chord. Chevrolet, together let's drive. Wow, what a gem. Is he just incredible? I could literally listen to him talk all day.

1:05:00Brené Brown:I know, he's just, literally when they put the story, when I saw the story, what Raj Bennett eats in a day, I think my response on stories was football Shakespeare with an SEC Longhorn chaser, a Longhorn Liverpool chaser. Because, I mean, he's so – Trevor Noah said something really funny about him. Trevor said, you know, you listen to the normal football fan and they're like, oh, oh, ooh. And then you listen to you at a game and you're like, while we walk through the shadow of the pitch at night, the light from the midfield shines on, you know, I'm so glad you got to meet him. I'm so glad you introduced us.

1:05:46Thank you for connecting us. And yeah, I think he's the poet laureate of football. Yes.

1:05:51Brené Brown:That's so good. So in addition to loving Roger, which was part of my plan, what's one thing that you learned that surprised you from our conversation with him? You know, one thing that I did not see coming at all was the experience of withdrawal. I didn't think about that at all, but I think he captured something that we don't pay attention to when we create such an immersive experience, which is, it's what you said, it's the reentry, like we've seen in play at NASA. And I don't think I've ever thought to prepare myself before or my kids for that matter for, you're going to get so wrapped up in, so absorbed in, whether it's the World Cup or the Olympics or anything that's designed to be an immersive experience that we actually need to think about how to remove ourselves from that and not feel unmoored or unsettled or just missing that sense of joy and focus and purpose.

1:06:53And that, I think, is something that needs more attention.

1:06:57Brené Brown:I will say that, I mean, I agree with you 100%. I was struck by Roger's face when he kind of leaned toward the camera and said, exhaustion, reentry. I was so hoping we were going to get through this podcast without an explicit warning, but this is what you signed up for, Adam, when you signed up to co-host with me. There's a phenomenon that I have called out in a lot of my work with teams called missed you, fuck you. And it's really hard. And I've seen it in teams that are very deeply operational and come home. and what they can't make sense of is how deeply they yearned for their partners, their children, their friends, how much they miss them.

1:07:50But then when they get home, there is so much tension and stress.

1:07:56Brené Brown:And one military officer said to me, being deployed is falling through the air at a very fast pace and not knowing how you're going, you know, what's going to happen. And you're holding on to your team and you're looking at your team and you're trying to figure out how this is going to work. But walking through my front door was landing splat on the ground. Like, and I had rather be falling with my team than... And so I think it is a very under-researched, misunderstood. understood. And I think part of it is the shame that we feel when we get home after an intense commitment for days and days.

1:08:41Brené Brown:And some of these operations are months in the term in NASA. You can talk to astronauts who said, oh my God, I thought about my kids and my partner every day, but I need to get back to my team right away. And tell me more. I need to be back with the people that shared the experience with me that I don't have adequate words to explain because I walked in the back door and there was tears and hugs and, hey, can you drop me off at swim team tomorrow morning? And I'm thinking, will the capsule survive? What did we see up there that we need to under, you know, it's a dimension shifting at a whole different level.

1:09:26Brené Brown:Does that make sense to you? I think you've captured it really well. And I think sometimes when I talk to people about that reentry, they say, well, but of course, you know, the magnitude of purpose and focus and unique shared experience. Yeah, an astronaut would get that, but, you know, not the rest of us. and yet in a smaller, much more ordinary form, it's the same thing I've seen when our kids leave summer camp, when they've been at sleepaway camp for three or four weeks and all of a sudden they have to just leave that world and leave all their friends. Same experience as graduating from college where all of a sudden, everyone you'd spent the last four years with was within walking distance and the whole thing dispersed and the place is still there, but the people are gone.

1:10:12And it's the same thing I feel when I do intensive teaching for a week Or when I go to a conference for a few days and you've been transported into a different world with a core set of people that have had shared norms and discussed things that nobody else has quite been able to relate to. And all of a sudden you're going back to the rhythms of everyday life and you really feel out of place. It's a liminality, I guess, is one thing. I think you're right about the shame, but there's also a liminality of I'm between experiences and I'm not there anymore, but I'm not here anymore either. and I don't know how to re-engage with either.

1:10:47No, and the, I've been on both ends of it.

1:10:53Brené Brown:I've been the person who comes home and I've been the person that Steve comes home to after a really intensive four-day medical crisis where he's working a hurricane or he's working, you know, a COVID long three or four day emergency, you know. and it's freaking hard on both ends. We just don't, I don't think we make the dimension shift without talking about it and asking what do we, I mean, it's very much kind of like the chapter in Strong Ground on locking in and locking through. We are so locked in. Again, world, a different world, different norms, different sense-making. and there's a ripping, college ending, there's a ripping, a violent ripping out of one world.

1:11:44Brené Brown:And then you're not expected to have an emotional reaction because you're back in a familiar world, but it doesn't account for the ripping motion. No, no, it really doesn't. Wow. Yeah. And I don't think the World Cup should come with a warning label. Be careful. Beware at the end of this. Right, right, right. You're going to be really missing something. But it does leave a hole in us. And I think that hole, the purpose of that hole, the function it serves, is to remind us to seek that out. Right? To not wait every four years for a World Cup to find our next moment of collective effervescence. But that is why, literally, Liverpool has three friendlies in the U.S.

1:12:29Brené Brown:in the next four weeks. And then I'm getting ready for UT football. and it's because I want to be on the couch with my kids and Steve cheering, laughing, cooking burgers. Like I'm trying to just build the next path to the next collective sports effervescence, which is my jam. I love it. Well, I'm going to fact check you here and say, Brene, you are never going to make it through a podcast without an explicit tag. That is just not happening. I know you're way too well for that, but. That's really fucked up, Adam. Hell yeah, it is. No, this was so much fun. I really love the chance to reflect on what should we have learned from this last month?

1:13:20And I'm excited that we get to continue it next week.

1:13:23Brené Brown:Oh my God, we do get to continue it next week. So this was fun. And thank you for letting me bring Grotcher to the table. And I loved y 'all meeting each other. Me too. See you next week. I will see you next week. The Curiosity Shop is produced by Brene Brown Education and Research Group and Granted Productions. You can subscribe to The Curiosity Shop on YouTube or follow in your favorite podcast app. We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Discover more award-winning shows at podcast.voxmedia.com.