You Don't Get an A for Effort

0:00Hey everyone, it's Adam Grant. The Curiosity Shop is on summer hiatus, but stay tuned as we'll be back with brand new episodes July 30th. In the meantime, we're revisiting some of our favorite conversations. Today's episode was originally recorded during Brené's Dare to Lead series on Strong Ground. In this episode, we tackle a question every leader eventually faces. What do you do when someone's giving their all, but the results just aren't there? We talk about the difference between effort and excellence, and how great leaders coach people toward meaningful growth. Let's dive in.

0:34Excuses are easy. An epic movie night? We don't have enough snacks. Dinner party with the girls? We'd have to decorate. Surprise date night? Nothing to wear. But Amazon's prime same-day delivery lets you say yes before the moment slips away. Try that new popcorn maker. order those cheeky drink glasses, get that new perfume, and turn that I wish we could into an I'm so glad we did. Visit amazon.com slash prime to find millions of items delivered fast. Same day delivery. It's on Prime. Available in select areas. Terms apply. Right now, get up to 15 % off select storage solutions. Put heavy duty HDX totes to good use, protecting what's important to you.

1:19The solid, impact-resistant design prevents cracking, and the clear base and sides make items easy to find even when the totes are stacked. Find select shelving and tote storage up to 15 % off at the Home Depot to organize every room in your home, from your garage to your attic. Visit homedepot.com. How doers get more done. Hey, it's Christy from Lululemon, and I'm here at the office checking out the Shake It Out shorts. These have been my go-tos, and I kind of think of them as a middle ground between a true run short and a more playful, athletic, sporty short. They have all the performance you want for running, so a comfy liner, our lightweight, swift fabric, even a pocket for your keys.

1:58But what I really like is the flowy fit and layered hem. It gives it a little bit of volume, a little bit of fun, so they feel as good on a run as they do just at coffee afterwards. You can find the Shake It Out shorts in-store now or online at lululemon.com.

2:14Brené Brown:Welcome to the Curiosity Shop, a show from the Vox Media Podcast Network.

2:23Brené Brown:Hi, everyone. I'm Brene Brown, and this is Dare to Lead. And I am back for episode six of this special series with my friend Adam. Hi, Adam. Hey, Brene. How's it going? So far, so good. But we'll see where this goes, won't we? Yeah. I, you know, you're one of, so there are several, there are teachers in the book, and the teachers in the book, which includes you, are folks who I thought their work was, their impact on the book and my research and my thinking was so big, it was more than just kind of a paragraph. It was, I wanted to share a lesson directly from you. So, Think Again is one of my all-time favorite books.

3:04Brené Brown:And so, I share an excerpt from Think Again in the book. Were you surprised to see yourself come up in yet another chapter? It was. It's such an honor to be featured at all. And I, you know, I, of course, skipped through the part that I wrote, not wanting to reread my own writing. Oh, yeah, that's horrible. I don't do that either. The worst. I had so many edits when I got into the first paragraph alone. I was like, yeah, I can't do this. That's enough rethinking for now. And then I thought I was home free. And I'm just, you know, sailing along a couple hundred pages. And all of a sudden, I came across my name.

3:41Brené Brown:you're in yep you're in the chapter called the big reward and so i talk about your op-ed let's get everyone caught up so you wrote an op-ed for the new york times titled no you don't get an a for effort tell me about the origin of this op-ed tell me the premise okay this started when i was a week-long course for brand-new MBA students. And at the end of the class a couple years ago, I got several grade complaints that were worded completely differently from any prior grade grubbing I'd come across. And different students wrote different versions of, I'm not happy with my grade because it doesn't reflect the effort that I put into this course.

4:34I was so surprised to read that because we don't grade effort. We grade excellence. Leaving aside the fact that in a week-long course, there wasn't a lot of room for Herculean amounts of effort. And I was really curious about why they expected to be rewarded for hard work alone, as opposed to mastery. and what what finally crystallized for me was that some of these students had been they'd taken the wrong lesson from carol dweck's work on growth mindset say more this is really this is so interesting to me well there's a whole generation of you know this well of parents and teachers who were told don't praise ability praise effort because if you tell a kid you're really smart when they fail they're gonna think well i didn't have of the cognitive horsepower.

5:30I don't have the talent to succeed at that. Whereas when you praise kids for effort, when they fall short of a goal, they learn, oh, I need to try harder. And that's much better for their resilience. It's better for their persistence, ultimately serves their growth. But if you take that too far and you only praise effort, what you're essentially doing is you're rewarding students for only their inputs and ignoring their outputs. you're telling them you should keep beating your head against a brick wall as opposed to saying, huh, that strategy is not effective for me. Let me find a different one.

6:08And I guess where I landed as I was working through this puzzle was I think we should be praising effort that leads to progress. So we don't just want to look at how much energy you expend or how long you persist. We want to ask, did that move you forward? Is your effort, is it fueling your growth? And if not, it might not be the right effort. It's so powerful to me. And so there's 10 directions we could take this conversation. And I'm going to write one of them down because if we have time, I want to circle back to it. Let me write and make myself a note. Okay. Okay. So I read that op-ed when it first came out.

6:58I agreed with it wholeheartedly. But? No, and. Oh. You know my commitment to the paradox. Jim Collins would say the tyranny of the or or the genius of the and. I'm going to go with and. And what I have found working inside of organizations is kind of dualistic thinking that either says, I am going to praise and reward effort even when the outcome is bad. or on the other side, this is a perversion of the original growth mindset thinking. And if I see you putting a ton of effort into something, but the deliverable or the outcome is subpar, then you get nothing from me. And so my thinking is that we should be rewarding effort

8:09with time, with our time. And so if I see you, we'll take the student example. If I see you really busting your ass, you're in class, you're taking notes, you're present, you're asking compelling questions. You have an active role because you're both teaching and MBA programs. You have an active role in your group. You are all in and you're spending a lot of time and energy trying to move the ball down the field. And the ball's not leaving the 50-yard line. You know, it's just, I'm not going to call that a touchdown. I'm not going to reward that with seven points because the ball's still on the 50-yard line.

8:53Brené Brown:I'm also not going to dismiss you for how hard you're working because I see you working. What I am going to reward you with is my time in trying to sit down with you and say, I see your effort. Let's talk about why the ball's not moving. Let's see. And this is really hard because I think in the dualistic solution situation where you can just give them nothing or you can give them seven points. both of those answers are easy for you as the score giver because you don't it takes no investment from you right you're just you're just a judge you're not a coach you're just a judge not a coach that's exactly right you're a scoreboard not a coach right that's it so to me when i when i work with leaders i always say if you see effort don't reward it and call it excellence or success, because that's a lie.

9:56And that's usually about your own comfort.

9:59Brené Brown:And also don't ignore it because man, one day you're going to wish you had someone that put that much effort into something. Reward it with your time. So I'm curious about your take on that. Oh, I find that very compelling. I think that's what's needed because if somebody, if somebody is putting in the energy and they're not getting the result, then that's the ideal moment for coaching. Yes, that's coaching. That's when they need somebody to say, okay, you're working really hard. Let's talk about what it would look like to work really smart. Or it seems like, you know, we actually haven't given you the training that would allow you to master this area of expertise.

10:39So we want to invest in that and invest in you.

10:44Brené Brown:Support for the show comes from Shopify. Think of the most successful business you know. At one point, that whole operation was just an idea. And making it a reality only happened through grit, excellent timing, and the right tools. So when you want to turn your idea into something real, Shopify is there to help you do it. Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world and 10 % of all e-commerce in the U.S., from household names like Allbirds to brands just getting started. Their design studio lets you build a beautiful online store that matches your brand style.

11:22Brené Brown:They offer a host of helpful AI tools, plus built-in marketing tools to help you create effective email and social media campaigns. If you've been sitting on a business idea, Shopify can help you finally make it happen. Everything you need to start selling is built in and ready from day one. With Shopify, nothing stands between your idea and a real business. So go make it one. You can go to shopify.com slash curiosity to start your free trial. That's shopify.com slash curiosity. Shopify.com slash curiosity. Support for the show comes from Bolan Branch. Sleep affects everything in your life and lots of things can affect your sleep.

12:11Brené Brown:Maybe you've noticed your fitted sheet has started slipping off the corners or maybe your pillows just don't feel as supportive anymore. As bedding slowly wears down over the years, you probably don't realize how much it's affected your sleep until you finally replace it. Bowl & Branch can help you upgrade. They make everything your bed needs. You might like their signature organic cotton sheets, pillows and blankets and comforters, which are all designed to be breathable, incredibly soft, and they get better over time. You can start with their signature sheets, and it's common to get two sets to rotate through.

12:48Brené Brown:I personally will add here, I am a huge fan of their per cow sheets. I have a high demand on the sheet. I need it to be warm when I'm cold and cold when I'm hot. And for some reason, their per cow sheets just, I don't know, they keep the hot side cool and the cool side hot. So I'm loving it. Upgrade your sleep with Bowlin Branch. Get 15 % off your first order plus free shipping at bowlandbranch.com slash curiosity shop with code curiosity shop. That's bowlandbranch, B-O-L-L-A-N-D, branch, dot com slash curiosity shop. Code curiosity shop to unlock 15 % off. Exclusions apply. Support for the show comes from Quince.

13:34The summer is full of opportunities to relax, and your wardrobe should reflect that. Quince has all the well-made summer essentials you need, all made from premium materials like European linen, organic cotton, and washable silk. Quince's 100 % European linen pants, dresses, and tops are the pieces you can reach for all summer long. They're lightweight, effortless to style, and start at just$32. And it's not just clothing. Quince offers everything from home to travel to everyday essentials. It's all affordable as well. Everything they offer is priced 50-80 % less than similar brands. They're able to do that by working directly with suppliers to deliver exceptional quality without the traditional retail markup.

14:13One piece I'm loving this summer is the Flowknit Breeze Performance Tee. Make your summer wardrobe easier. Go to quince.com slash curiosity for free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. Now available in Canada, too. That's quince.com slash curiosity for free shipping and 365-day returns. Quince.com slash curiosity. I need your help with something. Uh-oh. This is so exciting. I didn't think we were going to come here, but I'm so excited about it.

14:44Brené Brown:One of the, so one of the questions I get a lot from leaders, especially, actually, all the way from kind of first-line managers all the way up to C-suite leaders, is I'm working so hard. I'm busting my ass I'm working 60 hours a week and I'm not moving the ball and when we get underneath why there's so much effort and no result I'm not exaggerating right now at all in this context of geopolitical crisis tariff issues volatile markets, changing strategies, horrific supply chain issues, the problem identification always lands on prioritization, the lack of prioritization skills. No one's teaching it.

15:46Brené Brown:No one's talking about it. The communication around it is terrible. What can you tell me or teach me about prioritization? Oh, that's such an interesting question. It's such a crisis right now everywhere I go. It doesn't matter what industry I'm working in. Even with sports teams I'm working with right now, should we be prioritizing toughness or discipline? Should we be prioritizing accountability? And I think there's probably a swirl of those things that all are related to each other. But what would you tell a leader that said, I'm working so hard, I'm not seeing the results because the priorities from on high are shifting daily?

16:31Huh. I think I'm thinking out loud here. I love it. I think maybe the best lesson I've gotten on prioritization came from a conversation I had a few years ago with Jeff Bezos. who, you know, whether you love or hate him and whether you're an Amazon fan or detractor, I think Jeff has been remarkably effective at being clear on his priorities. I don't think you can argue that no matter how you feel. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. You might not agree with what the priorities are, but he's clear on them. Yeah. And I was asking him how he decides what to prioritize. And I came away from that conversation with a two-by-two that I think about maybe once a week and I don't even have a real job.

17:17So this has to be much more relevant for leaders than it is for me. But Jeff said the two questions he asked himself when he's making a decision are one, how consequential is it? How high are the stakes? And then two, how reversible is it? Is he walking through a door that's going to lock behind him or is it a revolving door? And he said, there's only one quadrant there that I spend real time and energy on. It's the highly consequential, irreversible decisions because they really matter and you can't easily undo them next year. So imagine Amazon made a huge investment in the cloud. He's not gonna wake up one morning and say, you know all those billions we poured into cloud computing?

18:01Just kidding, I want them back. It's not an option. He said with those decisions, he does not want a first mover advantage. He considers that a disadvantage. He will procrastinate as long as possible because he wants to see other people make commitments and make mistakes and learn from those. And also he wants to gather enough information, you know, qualitative and quantitative data, to try to figure out what the right important semi-permanent commitment is. And he said, I don't waste a lot of energy on the other three quadrants. if a decision is less consequential or more reversible, I will act quickly on the best information I have and just stay open to doubting what I know.

18:39I will delegate it to other people. And I think that for me, this framework has, I guess it has two applications. One is in our own lives to ask what are the consequential irreversible decisions? Let's prioritize those. The other stuff probably doesn't matter that much. And two, this is a question to ask up the hierarchy, right? If you feel like you're putting in a ton of work and the leaders above you are not delivering on giving you clarity, right? Asking them, hey, we've got a lot of things we're being asked to do here. Which are most consequential for you? Which are most irreversible for you?

19:13Do you agree that those are our top priorities? What do you make of all that? God, I could talk to you for 12 hours about this. This is just like what I, it's, it's what I talk about every day with folks. And so it's really interesting to me. I think that, okay, I have like a lot of questions. So we're talking about rewarding effort with our time and our thought partnership.

19:45And I brought up the example of prioritization. I have a question for you, and we're getting pretty technical in this conversation, But I think that's helpful because I think a lot of leaders listen to our conversations. And I think it's part of, you know, I think one of my favorite things about my conversations with you is we can talk about the morality of ordaining yourself to decide who lives and dies. And we can talk about very specific prioritization challenges in leadership. So I love that. So thank you for that. I wonder if, depending on where you are in an organization, if part of rewarding effort with time is leaders helping coach leaders on how to make decisions and appraisals of what's consequential and what's not, what's reversible and what's not.

20:43Because I would imagine if I'm in the C-suite, I have a different understanding of what's reversible and what's not reversible. I have a different understanding of what's consequential or not than if I report up to someone who reports up to someone who reports up to someone who reports up to the C-suite. Does that make sense? It does. It does. So how do you think about doing that? Well, I'm thinking right now about 4 ,634 misses in my own organization based on what you just said that have happened over the last two weeks. Because what I'm thinking right now in real time, I'm almost like I'm almost breaking into a sweat, is I have not talked to my teams about what feels consequential and reversible and irreversible and not consequential.

21:33I have not shared, I have not done mission critical communications, which is a part of the book. I have not shared with them what I believe is consequential and inconsequential and what's reversible and not reversible. I do not think my team is aligned. Sounds like a conversation worth having. Yes, because what I do see is, and what I hear leaders talk about all the time, is action over impact, which can feel really shitty. That's really shitty feedback to give someone. Like, hey, listen, I see a lot of your work, but I feel like you're engaging a lot of action over impact. And I wonder if that diagnosis is wrong because my mindset is different about what's consequential and reversible.

22:27Yeah, if they have a different idea about what's important and what can be undone, then they're going to invest their action in other things. Yeah, because I'm getting stuff that is coming up to me that feels inconsequential and totally reversible. Wow. Wow. And, okay, so I'm curious about why that is. I know there's the, what's the famous parable about when Bob Rubin was the treasury secretary and he made an offhand comment in a hallway about gold. And then this rumor starts spreading like wildfire. Rubin loves gold. And all of a sudden people are spending all this time analyzing gold markets and pricing.

23:13and people overweigh the offhand comments that leaders make. They're constantly trying to infer what's important by observing your behavior and observing your attention. Is there a signal you sent that said, this thing that's inconsequential and reversible is actually really important to me? Yeah, I'm having an IRL meltdown. Real time, folks, this is what it looks like. Yes, because I can be undisciplined in my emotional reactions to anything that doesn't meet our value of beauty and excellence. and that can be perceived as life or death consequential. And therefore people are spending wild amount of time, amount of time on something that I had an emotional reaction to because there was a dangling modifier.

24:33and I'm making that up because I'm never really sure what that means but like I yes it's about my emotional responsiveness and going under the line and being undisciplined in my responses and then my response is perceived as oh shit this is life or death for Bernay so So coming back then to where we started the conversation, you inadvertently rewarded effort on the wrong things. I don't know. I don't know if I rewarded effort on the wrong things or I— Sorry, let me say that differently. Yeah, yeah. Sorry. No, no, that's not what I mean. What I meant is through having an emotional reaction, you signaled that a different kind of effort would have been rewarded.

25:26Yes. Yes. But it's not actually the effort you wanted. No, it's not. And in a more disciplined response, I would have been more focused on systems than people. And we would have corrected systems. Not having, you know, and not making people feel like stuff is more consequential and irreversible than it actually is. Does that make sense to you? Yeah. Yeah, it does. So how do you think about course correcting on that? Because what's interesting is it's reasonable to assume that if you have a strong emotional reaction to something, that's highly consequential for you. And separating those two things is not always easy for people.

26:15Why would you emote about something that doesn't really matter? Oh, because I think that's probably a huge difference between you and me. Like, I am an emotional being. I am a... Are you a highly sensitive person in the Elena Aaron sense? No. No, but I am. I do want. If we send something to someone I'm working with and misspell that person's name. That can feel irreversible and consequential to me. but normally I think the response to that is, should be above the line where I'm a good coach, I'm a good challenger, I'm a good creative. What systems do we have in place to make sure things have a second set of eyes?

27:14What's the proofing channels that we're using? You know, that's the answer to that question. not I need six people spending 60 hours for three weeks on the mailing list. Yes. Does that make sense? Yeah, it does. So this is an interesting example of something that it reflects on your values. And therefore, it's worth spending some time on. but it's not consequential in the capital C sense. It's not consequential, nor is it like reversible in the capital. And it's interesting because I'm working with a company right now and the CEO is really talking about experimentation and reversibility

28:11and leaders are having a hard time seeing the same things as reversible as what he thinks are reversible. like pricing or, you know, we can try something. But I think if you're heading that market, it feels very different, you know? And so it does go back to, I never thought when we reward effort with time and thought partnership, I think we have to start by when we see effort as a leader and maybe even as a college professor, When we see effort that is not leading to success or mastery, maybe one of the first things we need to do is reflect on our own part in that. Yeah. Yeah. Did I send you a message explicitly or implicitly that this was the effort I wanted?