If he buys you a lab-grown ring, does he still love you?

0:00If he buys you lab-grown, he loves you less. Like, it's as simple as that. 85 % of people said they would consider and be fine with lab-grown jewellery, but when it came to the engagement ring, it was only 64 % that said that they were happy with lab-grown. If everyone is assuming something massive is lab-grown, what's the point? I always thought that the thing that made a diamond really valuable was the size of it. That's the carrot. But actually, the most important thing is the cut, and the most expensive diamond is the round, brilliant cut. We've got to talk about the De Beers diamond thing, please.

0:29They basically were mining and they started to find a whole lot of diamonds. No one wants a clear stone. People want rubies, they want sapphires. We're going to use marketing in the most amazing way possible. And say people who know real love give their partners diamond engagement rings. They limited the supply so it became like a hype product. The exclusivity of a diamond is the thing that made it really valuable. Would you sleep better every night knowing that your ring cost£20 ,000 and was natural? This is going to make me sound like such an idiot, but I'm just going to share it because I think it's important to be honest.

1:03Thank you so much to Michael Hill for making this Raising the Curb episode possible. The jewellery that you love the most should feel unmistakably yours. With Michael Hill bespoke, it can. You can choose the details from the stone, the metal, the perfect size and fit. It can be all designed by you and crafted by Michael Hill. Have a look at michaelhill.co.nz Also, quick note for anyone wondering who follows our social media very closely and is thinking, hold on a second, this girl is talking as though she's not engaged. The reason for that is that I recorded this episode with Fran literally the day before I went on my holiday and got engaged.

1:39So if you're wondering what's going on here, something feels a bit off, it's because we record these episodes a week or two before they go out and when we recorded, I promise, I was not engaged. I've been looking forward to this conversation for an embarrassingly long time. Today we're talking about LabGram versus Natural Diamonds. as an investment, but also just a broader conversation because there's been such huge cultural shifts in the last five years with lab-grown diamonds becoming increasingly normalized. And when I was thinking about who I wanted to get on for this episode, I thought, who better than someone who is very considered, measured in an intuitive, feminine way when it comes to what you buy what you invest in so we've got fran in studio again which i'm just like god lucky us three times i'm lucky i know it's amazing are you getting sick of us not in the slightest i woke up like a child on christmas this morning like let me tell you i never wake up at 6 a.m for anything i woke up at 6 a.m for you so oh i love that this is such an interesting topic to me and thanks for saying all these nice things about me but i feel so like conflicted about this and i feel like i've jump between what I think so many times I actually don't have a strong strong opinion on this even though my intuitive intentional spending Martha self should say who cares if it's natural or lab grown if you like what it looks like and it brings you joy go for it so we first had a conversation about this off mic a couple of months ago and we were talking about engagement rings so obviously this conversation is not just about engagement rings we're talking about jewelry and diamonds way more broadly but we were talking about engagement rings and i mean we had the exact same opinion where we were sort of quietly saying to each other in like hushed voices how we would want natural diamonds across the board because it feels more real it feels like particularly with relation to engagement rings yeah we were like if if he buys you labgo and he loves you less like it's as simple as that which is insane insane and it's so funny because we've done a lot of research and looked at various different opinions on this as we prepared for this episode and i have yo-yoed from natural to lab from natural to lab for months and i actually don't know where i'm going to land at the end of this episode but why don't we start with looking back at the history of diamonds, where they've come from, the idea that, you know, diamonds traditionally, before lab became a thing, really were created by the earth over literally billions of years, not millions, not thousands, billions.

4:29And they were extracted from the earth in the same way that other natural resources are. Now, lab, via the definition, are grown and manufactured, so they're not quote-unquote natural but they are essentially the same chemically and physically before I looked into this I thought perhaps that lab-grown were slightly different from a end product standpoint same I thought like I kind of put them in the same bracket as like a cubic zirconia or like moistenite I was like to the naked eye an untrained eye it looks like a diamond but if you'd go through like looking at the durability you know like the facets the light etc etc you would you would know very clearly that it's not but what I'm understanding from our research now is that like it's literally just the process that makes it different the end product is basically identical which is a different mindset to me now to what I thought about it before yes because I think when it comes to the durability wearability of a diamond the whole point of it is Like, yes, it's been almost grown by the earth, but it also has so much longevity.

5:37Yeah. So you can pass it down, proper heirloom stuff. Yes. So you could wear it and knock it against something and it's not just going to break. Or, I mean, I don't think it's going to break. That's the whole point, right? A diamond is a 10 on the scale of hardness. Like some stones, like a tansanite, for instance, and I think rubies and stuff are a softer stone. So you want to be careful in terms of like if you scratch, if you, if you knocked a softer stone, you would get scratches and stuff. But a diamond is the hardest stone. And like, I think they use diamonds to cut things sometimes because it's, they're so, so hardy that the other, whatever you're trying to cut will break before diamond would break.

6:15Oh, that's kind of cool. And I do love the idea of that because the point of, and particularly when it comes to an engagement ring, the point of it is I'm going to love you forever. and in the same way that a diamond will last forever because it's so durable. And it's also kind of romantic to think that it's been like Mother Earth has been like creating this thing for billions of years. Like there's something really romantic about that. It's so beautiful. Yeah. Imagine being someone that found a diamond without knowing what it was and coming across it in a miner in the earth. My mom has a diamond in a ring that my, her great grandfather found in the Kimberley Mines.

6:52Good joke. Yeah. Stunning. Was he looking for it or he just happened to – He was working in the mines, yeah. Wow. So, Fran, I would love to talk about this idea of the process that it takes to create a natural diamond versus a lab-grown diamond. I saw a quote, and I cannot for the life of me remember who came up with this, But they were comparing the idea of IVF babies are babies just as much as a natural diamond or a lab-grown diamond is the same end product. It's just the process it takes to become the end thing, which sounds so weird when you're talking in the context of humans and babies. But someone that is conceived by IVF is no less of a baby or a human than one conceived naturally.

7:40I know you've done a bit of digging around the process and comparing it with other products can we talk about that because I I do think that it's it's a fascinating piece and actually for me I think one of the things that makes me think about it differently when you said that IVF thing to me a while ago it was such a like light bulb moment because I was suddenly like yeah of course I would I never would think of a child like the process was different but the end product is identical. And then I started looking at other things that have the same kind of thing where process may differ, but the end product is the same where we don't differentiate between lab or natural.

8:19And I found pearls. So cultured pearls are not naturally occurring pearls. They're man-made versus wild pearls, but we don't really talk about them in different ways. Like I have always thought of a cultured pearl as like this glamorous, gorgeous thing. I've never thought like, oh it's man-made it's less than what is culture they've got these pearl farms where they create these pearls whereas a natural pearl comes from an oyster oh yes yeah i get so so much of that on instagram and people are finding them and then squeezing them out that's not real i don't know i don't think so do you think it's ai yeah devastating but the the there's some other stones that they that are also quite popular in the man-made space but we never really differentiate between a natural and a mind version and that's emeralds and rubies so i didn't know this at all but apparently those are both stones that have a very big there's a big lab industry for us but we don't think like oh that's a mind ruby oh that's a lab ruby we just kind of talk about rubies and emeralds in like one bucket yeah i mean that's kind of interesting also it's there's so many things that have been commoditized.

9:27I know. Think about puppies. People breed dogs for the purpose of having more puppies to then sell. And we actually, for things like that, a lot of people put the idea of a manufactured puppy or like the perfect pedigree above a dog that was conceived because, I don't know if dogs fall in love, But people pay so much more for specific breeds that have been kind of tampered with or manufactured. Yeah, it's like GMO. Is that the word? Not GMO. Yeah, is that when you modify something to make it perfect? Yeah, and think about vegetables. If you go and get organic vegetables, you can get some pretty ugly, weird-looking veggies.

10:10We put on a pedestal beautiful-looking, perfect, big vegetables that have been tampered with by humans. Exactly. So, okay, have you actually, let's save this to the very end. I was going to say what kind of diamond would you like, but more zoomed out, have you thought about, whether it's as an engagement ring or other diamonds, do you look at the different, because you know how there's the four, cut, clarity, what are the other two? Cut, clarity, carrot. And color, which also can make a diamond more or less valuable. Yes, I've got some interesting insights into this. Oh, okay, okay, okay. Okay, so I initially thought that the most important thing about a diamond was, and by the way, those four C's relate to lab and natural.

10:55So they can grade a natural diamond, a lab-grown diamond, just as they grade a natural diamond, which I thought was so interesting. They use the same certifications like the GIA and all these different things to grade these diamonds. But I always thought that the thing that made a diamond really valuable was the size of it. So that's the carrot, right? but actually the most important thing is the cut and the most expensive diamond is the round brilliant cut so that is the solitaire round diamond and the reason why that is so expensive is because the raw material that you lose because of all the different facets that you create when you're cutting it is that you basically get much less of the end product than you would have started with so when you buy the raw material you have to buy a lot more to get a lot less out because of all the facets you're cutting in it, which I thought was so interesting.

11:42Yeah, that is really fascinating. But so that one looks, it's called round brilliant. The word brilliant means that it's very shiny and very like kind of - It's got the wow factor, you know? The refraction light thing is like amazing. Then the other thing I found out, which was super interesting, that's called a new cut or like a fancy cut. The old types of diamonds were cut by hand, of course. And then you got something called an old mind diamond, which is what Taylor Swift has. Oh my God, that's hilarious. So I did some research on that. And how gorgeous is this? Old mine diamonds are less sparkly than a brilliant diamond because the way that they cut them is by candlelight.

12:19So they cut them by candlelight so that the type of glow that it has is like a warm, like romantic glow rather than like a brilliant bright, which I just think sounds so divine. I do love a glow of a candle, you know, like the warm, glowy golden light. But then the other thing I want to tell you is that, so round brilliant is the most expensive cut you can get it's almost like a cookie cutter like if you think about the amount of it's just like like yeah if you were cutting a gingerbread man you would need more gingerbread man than around the yeah it's like very intricate yeah and then the other so you've got your round brilliant then you've got the fancy cuts which are one step down from that and that would be a pear shape so you know a pear shape yes um a marquise diamond which is kind of like pointy at the top and the bottom so it's kind of that shape and then the cheapest one which funnily enough is the style that I like the best is the emerald cut yes so that's quite art deco and that's like become quite fashionable again but it's cool because it's got like a nod to like an antique style like art deco at times but that's actually the most reasonable one because I think it has the fewest cuts in it you buy the raw material and you lose less of it because you for your cuts.

13:30Got it. Yes, yes, yes. But have you ever tried on any diamond, like real diamonds, whether it's a ring, necklace, whatever? Yes. It was so weird to me. Do you know what it felt like? When I first started learning about the stock market or property and there's all this lingo and all this jargon that you just do not know until you've deep dived in the research. I remember someone being like, oh, this is a brilliant cut. This is a cushion cut. And I was like, what does all this mean? Like it was really overwhelming. Have you decided based on what you like the look of or have you decided what you like based on the price?

14:07Okay, such a good question. So I think I almost feel like back in the day before, and we haven't really spoken about this yet, but because of lab grown diamonds coming in, flooding the market, natural diamonds are losing value. And I think in the beginning, when people would buy diamonds, you would kind of placate yourself in saying like, okay, I'm paying a high price for this, but it's an investment. It was almost like a way to soothe yourself about how much you're spending for this tiny thing. I now, because of the way that things have moved in terms of supply and demand, and that the fact that there's this like flood of diamond type products in the market means the price has gone down.

14:46I'm now very much about like, what does it look like? And how do I feel when I'm wearing that thing. I'm not thinking at all about price or about it being an investment or resale value, because frankly, everything I buy that is aesthetic is not something I'm buying because I'm planning to resell it at any point. Like I do not understand the people who buy Birkins and then resell them. It doesn't make sense to me. I'm buying a piece of jewelry because it speaks to my soul in some way. And I would like to pass it down to people in my family or wear it on special occasions, but I'm never thinking, oh, I wonder how much this is going to be worth in 10 years because that's when I'm going to ship it off.

15:25What do you think? Well, yeah. So I think there's something really beautiful in the same way that a natural diamond has been created by the earth. I think there's something so amazing about heirloom jewelry, passing things down. Like, you know, Vic, for example, has all her jewels and all her rings are from her grandmother. So gorgeous. And, you know, the idea that they have been worn by generations and they're now on her fingers, I think so beautiful. That is not beautiful because necessarily they're natural diamonds, which of course they would be because they were from, you know, years ago. I agree.

15:58But the idea that something that I wore for my life that was meaningful for me, whether it's a necklace, a bracelet, a ring, earrings that were worn by somebody in my family that I love and that they love, like that to me is really beautiful. But I've had this weird block for the last couple of months while we've been thinking about this episode and talking about it. And I, I still feel conflicted about the idea because I do still think of jewelry as an investment. And I think that that's because it's a lot of money to spend on something that I'm wearing every day. And I don't know if this comes down to the self-esteem thing, but if I think about what I want to spend money on, And generally, I like investing in things that hold their value.

16:43And I never would spend$5 ,000 on a piece of jewelry for myself unless I had enough money to. I would love to one day. But where I am financially, spending that much on something, to me, I feel like I need to justify it to myself as an investment. Yes, I think there's so much about it. it's that you're justifying it rather than just being like, I really love this thing. I don't know if you've had this feeling before, but I feel this way about art. I've bought two pieces of expensive art in my life. And I feel the same way about jewelry is I'm so sensible when it comes to buying clothing. I'm very intentional when it comes to those kind of things.

17:22But when I see something and I feel moved by it, all spending, like sensible spending goes out the window. So I like when I bought a piece of art recently that like literally when I walk past it in my house, I get butterflies because I'm just so blown away by how beautiful it is. It was flipping expensive, but I don't care. And I'm never going to resell this thing. Like that thing is like part of me. I feel like it's a sole investment rather than some like a sole connection with something rather than something that I'm buying now with one eye on like the market of where it's going to be, how it's going to be valuable.

17:55But I do want these things to be durable, which is why usually I would think that you'd pay more money because you'd want it to last longer. But now that's not the case, right? Because a lab-grown diamond will last just as long as a natural. It's almost like you're investing in the enjoyment of what you will get from whether it's a piece of jewelry or a piece of art or whatever than necessarily thinking of it in an investment in the same way we do with other asset classes where you're buying it because you want to see it increase in value or hold its value. Totally. It's an emotional purchase for me.

18:24Yes. We've got to talk about the De Beers diamond thing, please. Let's go back to the beginning because this blew my mind. Yes. Do you want to explain it? No, I think you should. The excitement in your face and voice means that this is one you should take away from. Okay. Guys, let me take you back to the 1940s. Okay. So De Beers is a company where they basically were mining for other materials and they started to find a whole lot of diamonds. Okay. Which don't look like diamonds like we expect them to look like now. they come kind of opaque and they kind of are just like a kind of block of coal but within that when you do all the processes around them they turn into a diamond that you can then sculpt and facet to get the like color and the clarity and the brightness of them so they thought okay we've got all these we've got a huge glut of this product what are we going to do with them okay no one wants what they used to call it then was a clear stone no one wants a clear stone people want rubies they want sapphires they want emeralds what are we going to do okay someone extremely smart who i hope got knighted or whatever said you know what we're going to do we're going to turn a marketing cam we're going to use marketing in the most amazing way possible and say to people that people who know real love give their partners diamond engagement rings okay so they went after they pulled at the heartstrings of men and women and said that a diamond is forever which is true because we know it's number 10 on the like hardness scale of jewelry of of what do you call them stones yeah so they went and made this whole marketing campaign they said like diamonds are for engagement and it went so viral i guess in those days that it became like the gold standard they also spoke about that a man needed to spend at least three months of his salary on a diamond ring which in those days was probably a lot it is was a lot less but nowadays when you think about that that seems like an extreme amount of money to spend on one piece of jewelry and then the other clever thing they did was they limited supply.

20:18So they had access to all the diamond mines in the world and they gave specific site holders access to those diamonds. But there was the reality was actually a ton of diamonds, but what they did was they limited the supply. So it became like a hype product. And it was like the exclusivity of a diamond is the thing that made it really valuable. But what's so funny about this is it's just like a manufactured thing that they've created. So now what's happened, because lab-grown diamonds never did that thing where they created like a supply limit. They kind of are just like you can print a new one whenever you want.

20:52It's lost that shine of exclusivity, which means that the price has dropped. But it's all just a mental, like how we see things rather than like actually a limited resource. It's not a limited resource. I mean, honestly. It blows my mind. The marketing, whoever was the marketing genius behind that, I agree. Me too, raise. To be knighted. It is insane to think that that has had impact on how we perceive someone showing love is by how much they spend and what they buy. Completely. And the whole point of this conversation is we are still trying to unravel that. Yes. And I'm like so aware of marketing and I fight against it all the time.

21:34And it's so funny that for me, I still struggle to unravel that because I think I'm the least susceptible to marketing. And wow, boy, have they got me. Yeah, me too. Up until probably a week ago. Do you think that the amount someone spent on a ring, because I still fully was on board with the same month thing. And I also equate the amount someone, which I don't now, but I, again, it's one of those things I have to really unwind. how much someone spends on a ring shows their love for me, which is insane. And it's so weird that that is still kind of in the cultural narrative. I also had that mindset for a while, but I actually think that now it's like, because diamonds, when something that was a luxurious resource becomes available to everybody, it becomes like luxurious to nobody.

22:26And that's kind of like could be said for diamonds like there's something really chic about having a ring that has no diamonds in it or something that is kind of off kilter with what a traditional engagement ring looks like because I do think the idea of engagement or diamonds is not too dissimilar to valentine's day and the way that it's been marketed as buy flowers to show your love for somebody. But even with Valentine's Day, I was in New Zealand in February and my boyfriend sent me flowers and I knew that he hated every second of it because he was like, I hate that I'm buying into this. But also you're on the other side of the world.

23:05I'm going to send your flowers cute. And it actually made my day. And I was like, this is so cute and sweet. But I also hate the idea of falling into the trap of feeling like I expect that because flowers on Valentine's Day means love because it's not true. Love is shown in the way someone treats you in the everyday, but in the same way then, yeah, I don't know. I just, I find it's, they're so inextricably linked for me and I don't like it. I've got a question for you. Is one of your love languages gifts? I didn't think so, but I will say when I was given a watch for my birthday, not that long ago, I love it.

23:41I think it's not top on my love language list at all, but I would be lying if I said someone gives me something and I don't really value it. Small or it doesn't actually matter what's been spent on it. I think I'm trying to unravel for myself. Like, is it about the, cause you know how like girls love to dine out on the fact that their boyfriend or fiance designed the ring for them? Do they? I just think that men, they love to tell you that their partner designed it. And I'm like, well, he's not a designer. So like, I'm not that impressed by that. Dead. You know what I mean? Like, I don't really understand why people love it too much, But I wonder if it's actually about the, then it's not actually about the physical thing.

24:19It's about the fact that he took the time to think about what you would like and then put that together. And it's not something that is his natural skill set, but he's decided to put the time and effort in. So the love language for that person is acts of service, exactly, over the physical, what it looks like at the end. Yeah, I just, I think there's something to be said for, if you don't mind me talking about your watch for a second. Yes, yes, yes, which I unfortunately am not wearing because I need to put another link in. My arm looks like a sausage in a casing too tight right now, so I've taken it off.

24:50You love the fact that your partner looked up vintage Japanese watches, went through a whole lot of different ones, then found a supplier, went to that supplier, spoke to him, found the exact watch that he thought that you would love. Does that mean more to you, price aside, than if, because the shape of the watch is pretty similar to a Cartier Tank, which I absolutely love. I think it's classic and gorgeous. Then him walking into the Sloan Square Cartier shop on his way to get a coffee and just quickly walking and be like, oh yeah, sorry, I'll have one of those Cartier tanks. Great, thanks. Doesn't give it another thought.

25:21Does it make a difference to you? God, this is a hard question. It's a really hard question because I love my watch. I love the way that he chose it. I think it's really beautiful, but I also think there's something incredibly romantic about somebody spending money on you. And I really hate to say that out loud. No, I love that you say that. Because it's, and I mean in the context of perhaps going out for dinner, or it doesn't have to be a lot of money, but I find it really attractive when someone uses their resource on you. Agree, agree. So it's not necessarily the idea that I want someone to be constantly spoiling me, but I do find it attractive when someone is generous as a quality.

26:05Absolutely agree with you there, 100%. So I don't think for me, if it was one or the other, I would find it any more of an act of love. And I would value both. But, oh, it's a hard question. What do you think? I think I would much prefer your story. The vintage watch going to the supplier. Him giving it thought and time. What I found quite funny is yesterday I was looking online at engagement rings at some of the brand names like Cartier and Tiffany. and you can literally go onto their website and just like add to cart an engagement ring. And I found that so strange because it feels like it should be such a romantic, thoughtful time where you aren't just like, oh, I've got to do my waitress order.

26:45And then like, oh shit, I've got to get an engagement ring. Click, click, click. Off I go. I've got this ring. Yes. It's like, I like that it's a considered purchase rather than something you just throw in the cart. Yes. And I think that that's really interesting because rings now that are being made independently. so what you're talking about when someone's like flashing around the fact their partner designed something has gone up to 88 % of engagement rings so basically nine out of ten engagement rings bought in 2025 were either custom edit rings or full custom design and now you can on some sites kind of have a design experience where you you pick the band you pick the diamond you pick the diamond size you pick the clarity you can do all of it you can of course like build it rather than having something off the shelf or you can go to a designer which I think is really cool because it's like supporting craftsmanship and it is quite an like everyone who I've spoken to who's gone through the design process even guys who like aren't into that kind of thing have said it was actually like a really beautiful process it's also time consuming so someone putting that much time in rather than click and buy I think is quite a big deal but also perhaps the value is because lab grown diamonds are less valuable as in they don't have the same on sale maybe the value now hours and something bespoke and different and the time that someone's put into choosing something opposed to the money spent.

28:03I love that perspective. The perception is, it's actually not so much about the materials that are used. It's creating something that feels unique. That has its own story because your partner did it or whatever. Within the space that is so, dare I say it, contrived by a marketing campaign. So true. The beauty and the love and the investment is actually in creating something that's special to the person that you're creating it for. Completely. What was quite interesting I found, so I did a poll on my stories about what people's opinion was on Lab versus Mind. Interestingly, quite a few girls said Lab all the way, except if it's my engagement ring.

28:42So people still have this perception that they love Lab for everything else. But for some reason, and it goes back to the De Beers marketing campaign. It's like, if he loves you, he will get you a natural diamond. We did the same in like a quiz basically with the Curve audience and 85 % of people said they would consider and be fine with lab grown jewelry. But when it came to the engagement ring, it was only 64 % that said that they were happy with lab grown versus 36 % of women who said they would still prefer a natural diamond for specifically the engagement ring. I didn't go back to these girls and say why.

29:17And I don't even know the answer why. But there's, for some reason, we love the romance that has been created around a natural diamond. But I also think it's actually about the amount of money someone's spending. I could be totally wrong, but I really do think, yeah. And we asked our community as well, like, do you consider the engagement ring cost? Like, would you split it with them? How do you feel about the amount they spend? Does it equate how much they love you? And I thought the stuff that came back from this was really interesting. So our audience said that 56 % of them would consider splitting the cost of an engagement ring, which I thought was so interesting.

29:54I actually would love to play a clip from a podcast I listened to recently where the woman is basically talking about why she thinks we should not be opting to split the engagement ring. One of my controversial opinions is one of my friends said that she split her engagement ring with her fiancé, split the cost. And I was like, guys, this is not what feminism wanted from us. There's huge inequalities, the gender pay gap, the gender pension gap. This man expects you to birth his children. Do you understand the unpaid labour that goes into birthing someone's child? Yeah. Nine months carrying his spawn and you've split your engagement ring.

30:30I just cannot get behind that at all. I think there's equity and there's equality. Yeah. And that's equity. That's not equality. We have to acknowledge the inequalities that do exist and not present that 50-50 is equal. I actually really agree with what she's saying. I think that I love how financially independent we are. I love the fact that women now don't need to be in a relationship because financially they've got themselves. You know, like a partner should be adding so much more than financial stability. That's not the point of a relationship these days. Absolutely. And we're the first generation of women who can genuinely choose, is this person adding so much value to my life that I want to spend this much time with them rather than can this person give me the life that I want and pay for things?

31:17Because that is ultimately where marriage came from is we are giving away our daughters because we can't afford them. They're now your financial burden. That's not the case anymore. And back in the day when that was the case, jewelry was a store of value and of – it was a financial – Yeah, it was a financial investment because should something happen, you have jewelry, natural diamonds that hold their value that you can go and sell should you need money to get yourself out of a sticky situation or run away from your marriage or for whatever reason. Because remember, wasn't it like 1975 was the first time a woman could open a bank account without having her dad or husband sign like some kind of surety?

31:56so if you know if you're in the 1940s 50s 60s and you needed to leave your home it's kind of like that is your fuck you fund your diamond ring is your fuck you fund yeah i'm fleeing in the middle of the night i've got a diamond that i can sell to a pawn shop exactly whereas now relationships i mean depending on whether or not you combine finances is obviously a part of this conversation but if your plan is to combine your finances the money that's being spent on that engagement ring is actually kind of joint money in a way. So true. And if you had conversations about prenups, about what would happen if things went sour within your relationship, that ring or that diamond or your jewelry is not your safety.

32:38It's actually just something that you wear, as you said, for enjoyment rather than something that you can then get money for by on selling it. It must be quite a scary place. Well, I don't know if it's scary so much as just disappointing, but I guess this is the same with any kind of investment you make. You don't know if the value is going to go up or down. But if you had bought a really big engagement ring, let's say 10 years ago, with the mindset of, wow, this is a lot of money, but you know what? It's going to be worth X, Y, Z in future. Now that's not the case. That must be kind of quite scary.

33:08Well, let's talk about diamonds as an investment. Yeah. And let's compare the on-sell price of a LabGrom versus a natural. I said to my boyfriend this morning, I asked him because I was like, we're recording this episode. I want to know what your thoughts are on it. What do you think about lab-grown versus natural? If you bought a diamond for me, whether it's like in whatever capacity, would you be buying that as an investment? He was like, no, like it's not really an investment. And let's be real, lab-grown diamonds in terms of the on-sale price is not, it's not something you really get much money for if you're trying to sell it on.

33:44No, when I looked it up, it said there is no liquid second-hand market for lab-grown. so with that the whole premise comes down to what you want it to look like because it's not about yeah selling it for what you bought it for it's not like gold it's not like something that is holding like store value but also because diamonds used to be that it's quite interesting to look there's a graph which we'll put on the screen which shows how lab-grown diamonds have moved compared to natural diamonds i mean both are going down in on sale value it's not it's not Am I right in thinking that the natural resale value is going down as a result of lab-growns flooding the market?

34:24Definitely. But there is still more value in selling on a natural diamond. I mean, if you look at antique rings or antique jewelry, that is natural diamonds. They're unbelievably expensive comparatively to lab-grown diamonds. They do hold their value in a different way. But they still go down in value. They don't go up in value. Unless you've got like a one of a kind diamond that's like sitting in, you know, some Royal Albert Hall kind of thing. It's not the, it's not the, like I was quite surprised by this going into antique shops and trying on rings, which has made me think I would be so happy with an antique ring.

34:58They are for quite big diamonds. They're a lot more reasonable than if you went into a new jeweler and bought a ring that had just been mined and hasn't been worn by anyone else. The price is less. Well, see, I mean, I must be looking at enormous vintage rings because the ones that I was looking at were so expensive, like£60 ,000. Okay, I think if you're looking at something that's like a five-carat yellow diamond that's super rare or something, for sure it would be more expensive. But to your point, diamonds don't go up ever, whether they're lab or natural. So while natural diamonds hold value more so than lab grown, you're not going to be getting return on that investment in a way you would other asset classes.

35:42Totally. So the mindset around it being an investment, sure, it might have more on sale than lab grown, but it's not something where you're going to be, if you hold on to it for 30 years, getting 5x on that investment like you are in other things. I think it really comes down to like you need to ask yourself like what is the intention of buying jewelry? Am I buying this because I want to wear something that makes me feel really luxurious that I like the look of? What do you see the value in? What is the reason you've chosen natural versus lab grown? I think back in the day before labs came onto the market I think having a big engagement ring was a sign to society that you had made a good choice in terms of your partner financially.

36:24and probably for the man I would assume that he would feel proud that he was able to afford that size diamond but now that's not the case so yeah good question is it so that you can tell people that it's natural because nowadays I'm not so sure people are interested well 85 % of our audience said they would openly tell people if their diamond was lab grown versus not which I I was like stunning love the transparency but interestingly 62 percent of our audience assume that a diamond over a certain size is probably lab grown now it's just the assumption me too I mean if you're like in your mid 30 if I see like a 70 year old woman with a fuck off big diamond then I think it's real and I'm impressed but if I see someone our age with a huge diamond on their finger I'm thinking that's lab grown yeah so so then what would the intention or reason be to go for a big natural over a big lab grown it's the perception of what other other people would think but if everyone is assuming something massive is lab grown yeah what's the point i know yeah you don't even get the clout for the big ring no because everyone is going to assume it's lab grown anyway i also feel a little bit like why would you want to wear a huge ring in public when like it could get stolen you become a target all those sorts of things.

37:43Well, a lot of people I know who do have big engagement rings, whether they're lab grown or natural, either turn them around where they're on the train, they take them off when they go traveling. They feel a bit unsafe with a huge big diamond on their finger. Yeah. I mean, I think it doesn't hugely appeal to me anymore. I mean, yeah, I'm not sure. I just can't imagine wearing something big. I don't know what, I mean, I have hardly any jewelry. I think it would look fake if I had any jewelry on that looked nice and had diamonds. People would be like, oh what costume shop did you get that one from you know like yeah which lucky packet did you was this a Christmas cracker that you won that from do you think then that when it comes to investing in a diamond for yourself if you were to buy a nice necklace or ring or anything you would ever consider not getting lab grown if I was buying an antique of course then I wouldn't get lab grown I yeah but otherwise I think I would just get lab grown now and what would you value you more an antique or something that had been designed for you?

38:40Antique. Really? Yeah. Why? I like the idea that something has already got a story. It's been worn by someone else. I like an off the shelf. I'm more of an off the shelf kind of girl, I think. Oh, as in so, okay. Like leave designing to the designers. I find the same thing about like wedding dresses and like bridesmaids dresses. Why are we getting those things made? Why would you not just buy one? Because designers Designers literally do that for their job. So just buy one. Hi, everyone. Quick interruption to let you know that you have the chance to win a two-carat lab-grown diamond tennis bracelet.

39:12It's 925 sterling silver. From Michael Hill, it is the most chic, beautiful bracelet ever. Also worth noting that all of the diamonds meet Michael Hill's diamond standard, so you don't need to worry about quality. It is so gorgeous. If you would like to win, all you've got to do is follow the Curve platform on Instagram and Michael Hill, which is at MichaelHillJ. just go to our account and you'll see the competition. Every time you tag a friend, it's a separate entry. So enter as many times as you like. It's open to anyone, 18 and over in New Zealand, Australia or Canada. And we'll link the competition in the podcast show notes.

39:44All I ask is that you send a photo. Whoever wins, I want to see it in situ in many different outfits. I'm really happy for you. Quite jealous. And thanks so much to Michael Hill for making this giveaway happen. One thing I think we need to speak about, and we've touched on the idea of people's perception of what is lab grown versus natural, and the clout or the idea that I've picked well, I've got lots of money, I've got a big engagement ring. What about celebrities? Because I for sure would just assume that all of those big rings that they wear are natural diamonds, just assuming. They could not be.

40:19Well, yeah, this is the thing that I've been grappling with. It's like you would only buy a big natural diamond now if they are chemically exactly the same, if you wanted to prove something to the world. And I feel like celebrities, like we know that you guys are rich. So you don't need to wear a massive natural diamond to prove that to us. So if I were them, I would buy a lab grown. Because it's not a good financial decision. Exactly. And I was actually, I was listening to something anecdotally that was saying the people funding the lab grown market are actually the very rich people because they know how to make a smart financial decision.

40:58Buying lab grown is a smarter financial decision than buying something that you're basically just throwing that money away because you're not going to get the money back if you're buying a natural at this time. But what I was looking at when I was looking at some of these engagement rings, so celebrity engagement rings that we've seen recently, and we are assuming these are all natural, but we could be totally wrong. And I kind of hope that we are. Same. Because what I was looking at is how much is this ring worth as a percentage of their partner's net worth? I just thought that was kind of interesting.

41:28so taylor swift she's got a 10 to 12 carat old mind diamond well so that must be taking up the whole bit right before the knuckle right that one apparently is worth six hundred thousand dollars okay a lot of money if she got the same diamond lab grown she would have paid about 20 000 usd i can't do you know taylor swift's net worth offhand because i don't but like it's so extreme She's a billionaire, isn't she? Yes, yeah. That spending almost a million on a ring of her net worth is minimal. But what I find interesting about this is, so he's worth between$70 ,000 and$90 ,000. He spent allegedly$600 ,000 on her ring, which is 1 % of his net worth he spent on something that he's given to Taylor.

42:12That's like someone who's worth£500 ,000, if you include all of their pension, all of their stuff, spending£5 ,000 on a ring. Oh, yeah. Which feels kind of reasonable. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Not bad. the thing i would say about travis is money means nothing to taylor in my like i would assume and he is also part of a very airtight prenup like he's getting none of her wealth so him giving away one percent of his wealth i don't think it's like the smartest decision uh interesting but the one who i think is like actually the craziest it's callum turner so duolipa has a net worth of 200 million he's got a net worth of five million oh shit i know do they have a prenup they do don't they they must yeah i'm pretty sure it was publicly like spoken about so she got a round brilliant cut which we know is the most expensive it's set in like a really thick gold band which i think is really cool it's called a gypsy ring yeah we'll put an image on the screen for anyone that hasn't seen that is between 80 and 300 so let's say let's say 250 000 if she'd got it lab grown it would have been about five thousand dollars and that is four percent of his net worth If you bought her a natural, that's 4 % of his net worth.

43:20And I feel like that's not a good investment. Also, there's no way he only spent 5 ,000 USD on her ring. No. Because I feel like he had to be like, I've brought something to the table. This is what I'm bringing to her. Shit. I know. 4 % of your net worth. That's a lot. So that's basically like someone who has a 500K net worth spending 20K on a ring. It's too much. No, too much. oh i'm loving this percentage i know how interesting okay then zendaya sorry it's india she got a five carat cushion cut so she's married to tom holland okay she her ring is valued at 250 000 if she'd got lab grown it would have been about eight thousand dollars okay so her net worth is 40 million also interesting how all of these women have higher net worths than their partners so i wonder if their partners feel like they have to bring out the big guns for the engagement ring because it's like i'm i'm not going to be able to create the life that you want because you've already created a girl.

44:17So here's a little token of my appreciation. Yeah. Kind of get that. Yeah. So Tom Holland's worth 25 million, Zendaya's worth 40 million. And so he also spent about 1 % of his net worth on a ring. So Callum Turner has probably made a not particularly great financial decision. I know. Not great. No. I think also if you zoom out and now what we've done is make giant rocks more accessible price-wise and the fact that you can't tell what is lab versus natural, it almost to me feels like, I'm trying to figure out how I say this in a not crass way.

44:56There's a lot of things that we can't access because we don't have a lot of, or the same amount of wealth as these couples that we're talking about. I would say it is a terrible financial decision for somebody to be spending well above what they can afford to get a big natural diamond. Absolutely. And we actually had a guy come through. I want to read his. I want to read his. Oh, amazing. Yeah, I know. This is from a guy. I'm like, stunning, Stu. Love this from you. Where is it? Okay. So he said, they are geochemically indistinguishable. So at a fraction of the cost, why wouldn't you buy Labgron?

45:33I bought my fiance an engagement ring as a Labgron. I could have afforded to max the cut, color, clarity, and carat weight, but it was a no-brainer to do Labgron over natural. Plus, no blood diamonds, which we haven't actually touched on yet, is even if they say they are good and they are traceable in terms of natural, it's just not worth the paper it's written on. So how can you be sure Labgron for the win, in my opinion? And I just think it's kind of interesting when someone has the money to buy natural, they're choosing Labgron. Yes, because he's financially savvy. He probably has the money because he's made other smart financial decisions in his life.

46:11Why would buying a diamond be any different? Yeah, I might even read another one from a listener. So someone sent this in. They said, long-time listener of the pod, we offer both lab-grown and natural diamonds. So obviously they're a jewelry company. They're essentially the same, the only difference being their origin. Personally, I'm not anti-natural or anti-lab. The only time that I really cringe is when a female client comes to us wanting a three carat lab diamond. Then her partner or husband decides that it must be natural. So she ends up with a much smaller diamond and a lower color and clarity specs.

46:42And he spends a whole lot more money. There's a bit of an education barrier for men in my experience. That's what I was going to say. I think it sounds like some guys feel like they are shortchanging their partner by buying lab grown off over natural. but I think it sounds like that is an education barrier because Stu, our friend Stu who bought the lab even though he could afford the natural seems to have done the research and the education enough to know that they're identical. I was quite surprised by this though in the sense that I almost would have thought a guy would opt for a lab grand that looked bigger that could be considered natural but spend less money on it.

47:24From the ego perspective of going back to the idea of an engagement ring is showing off my wealth. I afforded that. Look at my wife with that giant rock. I know this is all really antiquated, but there is also in reverse as women think or used to. I've got a big rock. This then, you know, signifies that my partner can afford X, Y, Z. I think you've got to think about context as well. Like if your partner's walking around with a five carat diamond on her finger, but you guys are, people know what kind of jobs you do or they know your financial situation. Having the five carat diamond alone is not going to make them think that you're doing well financially.

48:04So I think like within the, you need to think about within the context of now that, and I feel like guys talk and surely they'd be like, did you get a, it was a lab, what did you go for lab or natural? So I don't think it's that easy anymore to cosplay as doing really financially well by the size of the ring that your partner has. So in 2025, 70 % of engagement rings were lab-grown diamond rings. That's up nearly 15 % from 2024. So that to me signals that most people are opting for lab-grown. I know somebody whose ring costs£20 ,000. it's a natural diamond and it's pretty big why would she have wanted that why would her partner have spent that if she was a smart girl she would have got the ring for 5k lab grown exactly the same put that 15k in the s &p not that's just my opinion but but should she have put that in as if it's almost her money like i want you to spend 20 000 on me but i only want you to spend five on that because i know someone else who's messaged me and didn't want to like wanted to remain anonymous and she said when we looked at the types of rings that I wanted and how I asked what the budget was that he wanted to spend and then I chose I wanted LabGon and then I invested the rest under my name which I thought was quite interesting yeah I think I would do that I don't like the idea that it's transactional though do you know what I mean it shouldn't be like this is how much I want you to spend to make me feel valued by you I like the idea of it just being I don't know but I mean that's the reality of life isn't it like you do have to put some monetary things but nowadays when people are joining finances, I wouldn't be that thrilled if we were spending 20 ,000 of our joint money on something that I'm going to wear on my finger.

49:46I might be scared to wear on my finger, or it might get lost or whatever. Financially, putting your ego aside, because I guess that's probably what it comes down to. There's this ego or need to impress others that makes you say, oh, I want to be the person who has the natural diamond. But actually, if you got rid of what other people would know about what other people would think what you think other people would think would you would you care would you sleep better every night knowing that your ring cost 20 000 pounds and was natural versus lab i think it comes down to what the arrangement is post marriage with your finances because i think we also we also should acknowledge the fact that we are disadvantaged by if we choose to have kids in many many many ways and if you're a part of a partnership you're not joining finances you're not I guess collaborating on the future wealth that you can create together which is everyone's choice is like it doesn't actually matter but I do think if I was marrying someone that had more money than I did they didn't want to combine finances but they wanted to get married and have children I think I would think about it differently that's a really interesting point the amount of money that they would spend on jewelry for me because it would be an investment for me because we're not in a shared financial partnership.

51:08I think that's really interesting. And I get that because you might be sacrificing, you'll be sacrificing time out of your career, potentially if you stay at home for longer, even more time out of your career. Your body. Your body. Yeah. So there is a little bit of a transactional nature to that. And I could see why you would say, look, I want X, Y, and Z. In the same way where there's some couples who say, you know, I want you to compensate me for carrying each baby. This is financially – Totally a push present. Yeah. But again, push present back in the day came because it was a financial exchange.

51:44It was thank you for carrying this baby. Here is diamonds that are valuable as a thank you. It is transactional. That's really interesting. like that's going to have to change now because I actually think the push present that needs to have a certain value assigned to it and if diamonds are now no longer a valuable item you kind of your push present should be like stocks or something because then what's the difference in an engagement ring because the engagement ring was also had that exact same attachment well because for me an engagement ring is two people choosing to be together it's not under duress or anything but so should a baby I know but carrying a child is a sacrifice I agree.

52:24But if you're not combining finances with somebody or you want to keep them separate for whatever reason, what is the difference? The whole point of an engagement ring is I'm kind of buying you. As in historically, that was the premise of it. It was, I'll spend this amount of money if you agree to kind of be mine. It's gross. It's actually really awful to think of it in that way. But that is kind of – but again, maybe it's actually not really because that's only the last 100 years. And before that, when people got engaged, they didn't use diamonds. So, yeah, I don't know. I don't know how I feel about it.

52:58I still am finishing this conversation not really any more clear on where I stand on it. The thing that I think people think is that a lot of people say, oh, lab-grown because it's the ethical choice. And I don't actually think – doing the research now, I don't think it's as cut and dry as that. They are very ethical ways of mining diamonds, just like they are very unethical ways of creating lab-grown. And unless you have the right certifications around it and the right information of sourcing, you actually can't say the one is more ethical than the other, which I think is quite interesting and different to how the media has portrayed natural versus lab.

53:34One of the things that we also haven't touched on is, you know, natural diamonds have become, and they were marketed in this way where this is a sign of love. I don't think LabGron have had any kind of, they haven't really spun anything other than it's more ethical. That's sort of the main piece that I've heard when it comes to LabGron. But I do think given that that is sort of null and void now, given it's the same as anything, there can be very ethical LabGron and very unethical LabGron. I don't know. I feel like it needs a bit of a rebrand. I really feel like they need a rebrand. like they need to get some like extremely influential people choosing lab grown over natural and advertising it like imagine kylie jenner gets engaged to timothy chalamet and advertises that her massive rock is actually lab grown because why the hell would you spend on a natural diamond when you can get the exact same thing we need influential people or they need to go and go for like a super chic brand like a lueve or something and get them to somehow market lab grown diamonds so that people start seeing them as part of like the cultural zeitgeist and not like the poor cousin of the natural diamond yeah yeah i mean yeah okay let's round this conversation off by asking you and this you can answer differently whether it's an engagement ring or just a piece of jewelry that has diamonds.

55:00How do you feel about a lab-grown diamond as a piece of jewelry? Do you see jewelry as an investment and therefore want to opt for natural or do you see jewelry as something to be enjoyed, not necessarily an investment and therefore you don't mind about lab-grown? Where are you sitting on the spectrum? I would say I don't think about jewelry as an investment but I do think about it in terms of durability and longevity. the fact that lab is now something that is as durable and long lasting as a natural diamond and is cheaper so a better financial decision means that my my head is saying I would go lab and I actually think I would extend that to an engagement ring too unless I was going for an antique which was already made and it had a natural diamond in it I actually think let's move with the times I'm quite happy with the lab but I want to know what you think oh it's so awkward because every time I've heard or asked this question to somebody and people that I really value their opinion, this is going to make me sound like such an idiot, but I'm just going to share it because I think it's important to be honest.

56:03I was speaking to someone yesterday who I really value their opinion and I said, you know, what is your perspective on lab versus natural? She was like, I don't care. I don't care if it's lab gone. It just doesn't bother me. And I felt this sense of relief. Yeah, okay. Because you're like, I don't want to be judged by her if I went. I think so. I think, I think that I can't pull out other people's judgment because it's also how I feel about it. So when I say to your point around a rebrand or around all these people that we look up to and respect, I'm not saying we look up and respect Kylie Jenner, but my point is just the more that it's normalized, the more that I feel like, oh God, I sound such an idiot saying this.

56:48I just think I feel really validated and reassured when people say they don't care if it's lab-grown or natural. I so get that. The more people that are saying they don't care, I'm really happy about that. I think that's great. And I find it really cool when celebrities are honest about the fact that they have lab-grown diamonds. Yeah. Because we are influenced by them. I've got friends who are very wealthy. They have a lot of money. and when they say, I don't care at all if it's lab gone, I have that same feeling of, oh, amazing, cool, cool. Yeah, they've got nothing to prove. Yes, and I think maybe that's what it is.

57:26It's this, I think because I haven't got a huge amount of wealth or I'm not in a position where I'm wealthy and I have all these assets, I think that there's still for me like a spend mentality that is approving to other people, which I do still inherently have. I know for a fact people that have proper wealth who are driving Toyota Corollas they are making really clever financial decisions because they don't care what other people think because they have nothing that they need to showcase externally and I know for myself I'm not there yet with my own money story I'm definitely getting better but I still you know when you asked me earlier do I do I value gifts as a like I guess like a love language I actually think if I pull it back when you said would you care if something or would you see more love and someone going into a store and spending money on you versus someone spending time and energy and creative output on designing something for you I think that if I was truly wealthy and I felt really like I had what I need I think there'd be no question where I would say the design element but I think because I still have quite a scarcity mindset, I'm fighting against that urge to not feel loved and validated by someone spending on me.

58:44That's incredibly self-aware. It's also embarrassing to admit. I know. I think it's so wonderful that you can admit that. And the thing is, is that that could change. I definitely have felt like that at times in my life where I think that someone spending a certain amount on me means something. But it's quite nice to know that that probably won't be your mindset forever. I hope not. I really hope not. I'd love to be driving around Toyota Corolla feeling like an absolute baller and being really proud of my financial decisions and being able to spend money on things that I value, not with one eye on what do people think of this or how is this being perceived.

59:18But yeah, it's a work in progress. I would like to say thank you to everyone in your community and our community who shared honestly about what they think about natural versus lab grown jewellery as investments or not investments. It's so helpful to not just look at these global statistics that are reported by people we don't know and actually that come from our own audiences so yeah like people like us yeah who are like-minded exactly and for anyone that does want to look more in detail on what those stats are we've got a sub stack that we've put out with all of the like raw honest data that has come through from both our audiences so if you want to go and like with a fine-tooth comb and look in more detail then we will share that link in the podcast show notes but fran thank you so much thanks for having me this episode.

1:00:03It's so good. Loved it. And if anyone has any thoughts or feedback on this episode, please like comment where you're listening. Please try to be nice. We were trying to be honest here and it is kind of exposing to do. So if you do disagree with anything shared, definitely want to hear, but please be kind in your feedback. Okay. All from me. Thanks guys. Bye. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of The Curve. Feel free to leave a comment to let us know what you thought. We always love hearing your feedback. New episodes are out Monday, Wednesday, and Friday. so make sure you're subscribed to be notified whenever a new episode drops.

1:00:35In the meantime, we're around on social so you can find all the links in the show notes. Hope you have a great week and we will see you for the next episode. Okay, quickly, the Curve was created to empower and educate you about investing, but we are not financial advisors. Our platform exists for educational purposes only and it doesn't provide personalized investing advice for your individual needs and should not be relied upon to make an investment or financial decision. and always remember to do your own research before making any investment or financial decision we're here for any knowledge and support you need but the final call is always yours and thanks for being here you got this yeah we know you got this