The property millionaire who says stop buying.

0:00Do you seek adventure and want to serve your country? The Central Intelligence Agency's Directorate of Operations is hiring. As a member of our team, you'll work on high-impact operations around the world, safeguarding our nation and making a difference. We're looking for individuals with a can-do attitude and a collaborative mindset. If you are looking for a challenging and rewarding role, explore available opportunities and apply online at cia.gov slash careers. oh my god why would i buy property when i model it out the scenario that always wins is not buying a property what actually most people who own a home are already overweight property from a diversification perspective it's really hard to sell a few bricks if you need money there's been this structural change it just is not a viable asset so now i'm down to about my last 18 properties.

1:01Way to make me feel really poor by the way. I'm selling down everything as soon as I can. There may be people who are listening thinking oh well stunning I already own his property so now what am I meant to do? Speaking for myself. How do we then think about this in relation to our future wealth growing? If you want to get what I call private jet rich you do need to invest in me.

1:26Okay, we've got like curve royalty in the room right now. So Nicole, okay, I'm going to have to give some context as to how we met because there will be some people that remember you from about, I feel like it was more than three years ago when you first came on the podcast. Yeah, it probably is now. So anyway, the reason we found Nicole originally was because, and I can't remember what the title was, the headline, but it was something about you only 100 properties. Yeah. And I thought, holy shitballs, we've got to get this person on. How on earth does anyone ever own 100 properties? So we have had you on before.

1:59So for anyone that wants to listen to that episode, we'll put the link to it in the podcast show notes because, I mean, you've bought houses for, especially with even, who is the Friends character? Joanne? Oh, Ross. Ross from Friends. Yeah, yeah. Like some really interesting stories about your experience with property. So we're going to try and talk about slightly different things today. But for anyone interested, definitely go back and listen to that. So basically what happened was we interviewed Nicole and it was a really interesting conversation. And then you kind of just, we just kept in touch.

2:33And then when we raised capital two years ago, Nicole was our lead investor. So it was really like so, I don't know, it's such a nice circular experience, I think, because you knew what the curve was, you knew what we were trying to achieve, and you'd experienced being kind of a part of the community and on the podcast. So that was really special. And I think what might be really interesting for people listening, because we don't talk a lot about angel investing, which is what that type of investing is, if you now look at your portfolio across how you invest in property, the stock market, and then private companies, can you explain how small that private company investment is in terms of comparatively to your overall wealth and why it's the kind of investment that isn't often spoken about or focused on because it is really risky.

3:23Yeah, I can. So I started startup investing in 2017 and my very first one was a property or prop tech company. And it was because I was kind of a little bit bored, I guess I wanted to have a new investment experience. Also, if you want to get what I call private jet rich, you do need to invest in startups because just investing in equities and things you're not going to get super wealthy doing that you're also not going to get super wealthy doing that in property anymore but we'll get to that so i thought okay the way to really accelerate your wealth journey is by startup investing so i've invested in four startups five startups now uh only three of them are still with us really which includes oh i felt very honored about that yes wow i didn't realize Yeah, they've fallen by the wayside.

4:13Which is, by the way, what we're going to get to in a second. Because differently to how, yes, it can propel you to maybe one day being able to buy a private jet, it also can be very risky in terms of the way it invests. A public company has so much regulation about what it can and can't do. So it's very different. It is incredibly different. And I will just say I don't want a private jet, but that's just how I say it. But yeah, to answer your question, about 10 % of my portfolio is invested in startups now of the three that are still around. So I didn't lose too much on the ones that fell by the wayside.

4:48But what I've got left is around 10%. I would normally advise that people only do about 5 % in startups. Mine's a little bit high, but obviously I saw a very compelling case in the curve. And I thought, right, I need to back this. I want to be part of this growth. We actually spoke publicly about the facts that we were raising just because we wanted to be honest with our community. And then obviously now that's turned into the fund. And, you know, as an investor, you're privy to what our plans are and what we're trying to do. But when you met us and we originally sort of pitched, what was the decision for you beyond a financial one?

5:24Like how do you decide on your private investments differently to public ones? What is different is I invest in people. And that's the first thing I invest in, in all of the startups that I've done. Who are the people behind it? How enthusiastic are they? And I want them, this sounds really, really strange, I know, but I want them to have felt a bit of pain. And what I mean by that is I want them to have had the struggle because I don't think that someone living a really cushy life is going to have this necessity to really make a company work. So I want to see that there's some struggle there.

5:59So the point of today's episode is really to touch on property, property investing and how that's changed so much in the last 10, 15 years because it has. And I think that there is a lingering sense of if I buy property, I will get wealthy. And that was definitely embedded within the millennial generation from the Generation X baby boomers who bought up property and really grew so much wealth from that asset class. But it's changed a lot. So that's what we're going to talk about today. So you have built or renovated about 125, 27 properties. and at one point held a share in over 110 properties, which is absolutely mind-blowing, but so impressive.

6:46Can you talk us through how someone builds a portfolio and property of that scale? To own a share of that many properties is not actually that difficult because there are so many people out there trying to sell shares in their properties. So that's actually not so difficult. But what it meant is that I started developing properties in around 2012 and it was a very different market, as you've said. But I started with one. I made a lot of money on that first one because it was here in Hackney and that's what was happening in the market that time. Properties were just going crazy and people were paying more actually for an undeveloped property than for a developed one because everyone wanted to just jump on this bandwagon, and especially in Hackney.

7:32So how I did it was I made a lot of money on my first property and I started with a lot of money and I've been really open about the fact that I started with a million pounds and not everyone has that. Do you mean for property investing you started with that much? Exactly. Can I ask how? First of all, I bought and sold a property. So I bought a property in Clerkenwell in 2004, moved to the US and rented that out. When I came back from the US in 2009, it had doubled in value and that's just Clerkenwell and that's in central London. So I managed to sell that out for around 800 or so thousand. I'd also worked at Goldman Sachs while I was in New York, had a baby, had another one on the way.

8:08My husband at the time had been working. He got great bonuses. So we managed to put together about a million pounds to invest. And I will say that that's not normal. But the same thing, you can do the same thing with, say,$100 ,000 or$10 ,000 even. And it's just about how you grow that from$1 million or$100 ,000 or$10 ,000. And so I will say it was a completely different time. The tax structures were different. The property returns were different. And then the biggest factor is interest rates. We were in that period they call ZERT, so the zero interest rate period or time. and that was just money was cheap and so you could borrow.

8:52So it was a different time. But I just was open to opportunities at that time and I had money so I could buy 5 % in this property and 10 % in another and 100 in another and I just grew that portfolio of the time. I also built properties. So I built one site we bought and we put 49 flats on that one. I bought another one. How did you fund that? Was that then taking borrowing money, building them? See, that's a huge risk, though. And I think it's worth pointing out, yes, although you started with money and you'd worked really hard and you built up that million to start property developing, it's still hugely risky to go and say, OK, we're going to build 50 flats on this and we're going to borrow lots of money to make it happen.

9:32You know, it does take it's a ballsy move. It was high risk and as my story continues, I did lose a lot of money because I did take some, in hindsight, some naive and unnecessary risks that I wish that I hadn't have taken because I did lose so much money. I managed to regain most of that money, but I still am net negative as far as what I invested overall. So that's sort of my sorry tale. In terms of all property investment, you're actually down. I am. Yeah. Compared to when you first started. Yeah. So for 15, 20 years of work on property and on property investing, you're actually negative. I did take money out along the way.

10:14And so I can't say that I'm negative. But as far as I invested X million and I got back X minus one million. So I am down. It's crazy to me. I am passionate about property. I love property. I am doing my 127th renovation right now, build or renovation. And I still love it, but it doesn't make financial sense. And I was listening to your episode with Fran recently and how you were talking about why now is not a good time to invest in stock market, but still do it anyway. And I was thinking about how that relates to property investment. And unfortunately, it doesn't. And the reason is because the structure has changed in property investing, whereas it hasn't in investing in equities.

11:02I think the takeaway, and I'm sorry for putting words in Fran's mouth, but the takeaway is that with stock market investing, it's about dollar cost averaging, pound cost averaging in. It's just you do it over time. And that is the most prudent approach to investing in the stock market and in equities. Whereas when you're investing in property, there's been this structural change in the taxation and in the structure and in the overall market, which means that it's just no longer viable. So you can't just dollar cost average into the property market, of course, because it's a big, chunky investment that you're making.

11:37Even if you could, it just is not a viable asset now. For example, if I was looking to buy a central London flat and I needed to have a£70 ,000 deposit, let's say, when you say the dollar cost averaging doesn't work for property, is what you mean that when I put that down payment or that deposit down, it goes in one go. So if I did it now at the current rate, who knows what will happen in 12 months. But if I'd done it 12 months ago, that deposit would be down 14 % based on those stats that we're talking about. And you can't average that out year on year because it's such a huge, chunky investment at one time.

12:19And no one knows where the bottom of the market is. So that could honestly just continue to go down and down and down. Yeah, it could. And that's the thing is that actually most people who own a home are already overweight property from a diversification perspective. So if you think about when an advisor tells you to invest in a balanced portfolio based upon your risk profile, it's invest, I don't know, let's just say 70 % in equities and 10 % in property and the other 20 % in other assets. So that's a diversified portfolio. But if you think about your home, even if you're putting that£70 ,000 deposit down, it's going to be a lot more if you're buying in London.

13:02But that is already really putting your portfolio overweight property. Do you see what I mean? Because of just such a big chunk of your net worth is going into property. So when people start buying a home and then they become landlords and buy additional property, they are making themselves very exposed to the risk of property price changes. Whereas if they had more of their portfolio in equities or other investments, then the way that the prices move are not together. They're apart. So usually when equities are going up, property prices are moving in a different way. And that's what the whole diversification piece is.

13:44It's just about making sure that your portfolio is, this is going to sound quite finance-y, but you want the correlation between the movements in your portfolio to be as low as possible, which means that when equities are up, property is down and vice versa. And that's how you want your investment portfolio to be. So it's safe for the longer term. And I think the interesting thing about this, which is really relevant to our audience, is most people prioritize the house as the first investment. So what you're kind of saying here is that even if you own one property, you're incredibly heavily invested in one asset class, which is actually not doing that well comparatively to other investments.

14:32So while a lot of us think our first and biggest investment should be our first home or a home, actually what I'm hearing is you should try and grow your wealth to the point that when you then buy property, it's actually a smaller percentage if you look at the whole of your portfolio rather than going in first and then going to do equities, which is flipping the whole approach on its head that we've been taught for a really long time. But there are two things. There is if you want to be incredibly pragmatic and prudent and just come at this from a finance angle, then yes, that is the approach you take.

15:06But owning a home is not a logical decision, is it? It's an emotional decision. And I know for me, when I lived in London, I just I thought every young person, why are they buying a house? It's such a ridiculous decision. They should just rent and then they've got the flexibility. They can live anywhere they want. They can travel the world. And then I left London and tried to rent and I had the most horrendous experience. Why? I had, I just, for a start, there is no rental sector that's set up properly here in the UK. There is in other European countries. So if you look at Switzerland, for example, this is actually a really interesting statistic that I'll share with you.

15:47So this was a little while ago, probably a couple of years ago, I looked at this. And the highest GDP per capita, so the country that produces the most stuff that they then export in Europe at that time, was Switzerland. They've got the lowest home ownership in the whole of Europe. It's around 50 odd percent. If you then look at the country with the lowest GDP or one of the lowest GDPs per capita, which is Romania, they've got the highest home ownership around 90 something percent but what switzerland have got is this really good uh public rental system of course they do though anyone that has been to switzerland is like i am on school camp it's insanely organized and so oh it's such an amazing place to be there's a lot of rules i think i would get in so much trouble if i was swiss i just did not very good at following the rules but but yeah it is set up in a way where it really cares for the people yeah it does and they've got this fantastic rental system where when you're when you first leave home you get on the rental ladder you get given this what we would call a council flat but you pay a discounted amount for that but what happens is you're not tied to that flat let's just say you meet someone and you need an extra bedroom you then move to another one and then you You pay an additional amount of rent.

17:12And then when you have a family, you then move to the next one. And they've got this beautiful way that you can move your way through this. It's so interesting that you bring this up because I was recently visiting one of my best friends who lives in Switzerland. She has this beautiful apartment. I walked in and was like, oh, my God, this is so lovely. And then she said, oh, you know, one of the neighbors in the building is moving out and it's an extra bedroom. And I have been thinking about maybe I should move into that. But maybe it's a little bit early or whatever. And I was like, oh, that's so interesting that not only are you notified, but also it'd be really easy for you to transition into that.

17:46Whereas I feel like people in the UK and most parts of the world, when you're going to try and get a rental property, you've got to go in with all this armor and be like, I'll buy you a couch. I'll do that. It's so competitive and really disadvantages most people. Back to your point about you wouldn't really advise young people to be renting. That's because your experience was not good renting? So my experience renting as a mother with three children was really, really bad. I think if you're a single person and you can afford to rent a property on your own, apart from the competition to get in that flat initially, it's actually not bad.

18:26And especially in the capital cities, if you're in London or Manchester or Birmingham, whatever it might be, it's easy to rent because there's just so much supply. When I moved to Kent for schools, there was... For anyone not in the UK, it's like the country, beautiful countryside. Imagine sort of like in the holiday, the little cottage. That's right. It is exactly like that. Yeah. So it's like moving outside of central Sydney, I guess, the CBD. Oh, which I miss the CBD. But anyway, there's just no rental stock. There's nothing out there to rent. And so there would maybe be one property that was kind of suitable that had enough space for me and three children and three dogs.

19:12Three dogs? Three dogs. Bloody hell. Yeah, I do everything by three. Oh, my God. Okay, right. What? Three investments in start-ups, three kids, three dogs. Yes. That's what I say. Three husbands. Three ex-husbands. Yep. I haven't gone anywhere near that yet there's something so tricky about being like my first husband I'm actually divorced sorry now I've lost my train of thought so basically it's just it's a lot harder to find what you're looking for whereas if you buy a property you have control over what is it that I need can I can be specific about the things that I want I do just think though when it comes to the idea of investing and you're saying buying property yes if you're being very pregnant managing purely financial, buying property is maybe not the best way to build wealth.

19:56So people who might not be in a situation where they have kids or they might be single, renting is much easier. But then when it comes into a sort of different territory is when you have much more clear parameters of what you need. And therefore the idea to invest in property is a emotional, logical one rather than necessarily financial. That's exactly right. I think even for a young person, I just felt like it was trapping people into an area that there's very low liquidity. Once you buy a property, the costs involved with actually that transaction, the stamp duty, the agent's fees, the legal fees, it's a really expensive transaction.

20:36and it locks you into a home that you may not necessarily want to live long term because your lifestyle changes. But it also can often lock you into a job that you don't really want to because you have to take a job. You can't take a risk on investing in your own business because you must pay your mortgage. Whereas you think that if you've got more flexibility, it allows you to just take a riskier approach in life. But then I have to recognize that not everyone wants to live like that. Not everyone wants to move countries numerous times. Three times I've moved countries. Oh, my God, it is a real thing.

21:09It's a real thing. Yeah, exactly. Is there anywhere in your life where there's only two and probably you need to go to the third? Well, we're ex-husbands, but, yeah, I really don't want to go through divorce. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's not do that again. The idea of young people buying property, like there's someone who I know quite well who was having a conversation with me around whether or not they should buy a property with a family member. This was maybe like a year and a half ago. And I was saying, go for it. Wow, amazing. You're in a position to be able to buy a property. Like that's, you know, I wish I had to had that when I was younger.

21:42She's in a sort of mid-20s. So, I mean, I wasn't able to buy property until mid-30s. That's not true. Early, whatever. I'm like very firmly with a mid-30s at this point, which I like for up until 34, I've been claiming early 30s. 35 is no longer, it's no longer a thing. I was quite positive about the situation you know it's really amazing to have the family member because you really trust them you can live in the house blah blah blah do you then think actually that there is validity in that in terms of if they were because I know their plan is to hold it for a long period of time is that a different situation where yeah it could be really good to buy when the market's down because if you can hold it for 20 years you'd really hope in 20 years time that that's had some seriously good capital gains and it's increased in value?

22:32Or do you think that the property market in general is just going to keep going? I mean, no one knows what's going to happen, but... That's exactly right. We don't know. And it depends whether it's a home and that your friend is living in the property or whether it is an investment. So that makes a big difference. If it's a home, then it's purely emotional decision. And there's nothing wrong with an emotional decision. But what I find, and this really surprises people, is often when I've got clients coming in who are in their mid-20s and they say, okay, I want to plan out my life. Should I buy a property or should I invest my excess income?

23:05And when I model it out using cashflow modeling software, there is one scenario that always, and I'm yet to see it, I'm sure there are where it doesn't work out, but the scenario that always wins is not buying a property. It's investing in the stock market. I honestly thought you were about to say it's paying off your mortgage and not paying rent when you're older. No. Really? Even if you've got a mortgage, even if you're leveraging and borrowing, because this is what people always say, well, I can leverage to buy a property. Yeah, you can, but you're paying all that interest over 25 years. And when you look at a calculation, that's a lot of interest that you're paying.

23:41The other thing is that if you're investing in the stock market, you can often do it in a really clever way using various wrappers. Like if you're in Australia, you use your superannuation, which has its own nuances. But if you're in the UK, you can use an ISA and that's all tax-free. Your capital gains and your dividends or your income that come into that are all tax-free and you can put£20 ,000 a year into that. And so that's really valuable because yes, if you're buying your own home, there's no CGT on this. So capital gains TAS on the sale of that property. But if you're a landlord, there is.

24:18You also, in Australia, you can claim back your interest costs. And in New Zealand, I believe, you can claim back your interest costs against the income that you're receiving if you're a landlord. In the UK, you cannot do that. So is what you're saying, you've never modeled out a financial scenario for someone where it's made more financial sense in terms of being better off in the long term to buy property than not? That's right. Oh my God. Yeah. Why would I buy property? If it's an emotional decision, if you want to buy a property. Oh my God. So basically don't buy property unless it's an emotional decision.

24:51Yes. Wait, what about my property investments? I feel like I need to defend myself now. It's a bit late, so. No, I know. I know. So you're going to give me a really skewed answer. But what if, like, so in New Zealand, you don't get capital gains tax. And I've got two now. And we did a renovation. So we added value when we renovated. And then we're going to hold it for a long time. And the New Zealand property market has done a lot better than the UK. So I've already seen that gain in terms of what we've made. If I sold it today, I would have made a gain on it. What would you say, something like that?

25:27Would you say, yeah, cool, but you could have made the same amount of investment or gains if you put them in the stock market? Look, it's too late. That horse is bolted. No, but I actually think there's other people listening that could learn from my mistake. Yeah, no, exactly. So had you've utilized your ICES and put, say,£20 ,000 a year into your ICES, how much could that have grown? by being invested in the stock market over that last two years? And the answer is probably quite a bit. And that would have been tax-free and you can dip into it anytime you want. Obviously, investing in the stock market is sort of a medium-term investment, but still you could have dipped into that at any time.

26:04It's really hard to sell a few bricks if you need money. I think that is the big thing, is that selling something is not as easy as you think. Again, it depends on everyone's situation. And that's why it's so important that people that even feel that they can't afford to take advice do get advice because everyone's situation is so different. And it could be that in your friend's situation who's just bought a property with a family member, maybe it is the right decision for her based on how she's invested that, how her other portfolio is, elements of her portfolio are invested. It could be that she's expecting a big inheritance.

26:44And so that could be something that she's factored into. In terms of they don't put that in the store market or whatever. Yeah, exactly. So there are so many nuances to everyone's personal situation. And this is why it's so important that people get personalized financial advice. Everyone's different. And even your AI can't tell you these things. Yeah, they do a pretty good job. But it can't take into account your personal situation and how you feel, that emotional side. It's going to say, yes, it's best for you not to buy property. And you're going, but I really want to buy a home because we're having a baby and I want to have my own say on how I set things up.

27:21But I think that's a really good point is like you can change the interior of a house when you own it. You have a feeling of security. If you have a baby and you could get turfed out and have to find somewhere new with a six-week hold, like that would be worth its weight in gold in terms of the investment. So it is really different depending on what stage of life you're at and what you're looking for. But I would love to hammer home this idea of property is not the only way to build wealth. Because one of the things that we were speaking about was the rich list. And actually looking at what some of the most wealthy people in the world have in their portfolios and how much of that is weighted towards property.

27:59To start to get, I guess, a bit more insight into the overweight, underweight when it comes to property. because your average Joanna, like me, are far more invested in property than perhaps I realised. However, when you zoom out and look at some of the wealthiest people in the world, you might hear that they have 15 properties and think, oh, they're so heavily invested in property. But you don't know the total amount of their wealth. No, exactly. And I wanted to share the actual numbers because I thought it was really interesting. So I've always heard, probably like everyone, that the rich all got rich from property.

28:38They've invested in property over the years. And people say, yeah, I'm buying this property because it's my superannuation or my pension, whatever it might be. So I went back and had a look at the rich list and what it was composed of over time. So it started in 1989 and it was dominated by the Queen. She was the richest person in the UK. And it was dominated. She owned a whole country. She did. And at that point in time, she was the wealthiest. How do we get into that asset class? How do I buy an entire country? Well, yeah, I'm afraid that all the princes are currently married or too young at the moment.

29:14So probably, to be fair, the only way to get into that asset class is marriage. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, which my daughter talks about a lot. But yeah, so it was dominated by the queen and it was inherited wealth. So most of the people on the rich list in 89, 90 and the whole of the 90s, it was inherited wealth. So they owned a lot of property. And it was the Grosvenor estate, those sorts of people that inherited all this money. So it's like saltburn sort of vibes, you know, like those giant big manors. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Then in the 2000s, that's where property really came to its own and people were buying up property.

29:54That's when I started buying up property as well. And so the rich list then, that was the peak of property wealth in the 2000s. We had cheap credit, as I said, cheap interest rates. We had the buy to lead explosion and also London commercial property really boomed then. And that brought in all these international investors. There's still a huge amount of interest from the French community in South Kensington. They've got their own schools there and things. And then we've got other parts of London where the international investors have historically always been. That all then changed. So in 2008, the city took over.

30:31And this is when we had the first dot-com boom and bust. But after that, there was more solid returns in the stock market. And I was fortunate to ride this sort of 2008 wave as well because I was working in the city. I was working for Capital Funds Manager, and then I was working for Goldman Sachs. So I was fortunate to ride this wave. So this is when we had all the city, the finance bros. They weren't even called that then. But yeah, the finance bros were topping the rich list. As we go into the 2020s, it was tech. So it was just startups. And these were the people that were then dominating the rich list.

31:12But what's really interesting, I think, is actually that while property was not the reason that these people became wealthy, it was the asset that they often invested their wealth in. But I would also give a bit of a caveat here because when you're compiling a rich list, you look for assets that you can see. And now property is invested on registers, on the land registry. It's also invested, if you've bought property through a company, it's registered on company's house. So it's registered. It's easy to see. Whereas if you've bought shares in international companies, things like that, then it might not be so easy to see.

31:53It's not so transparent. So I would say that there's an overemphasis of property as an asset class on the rich list because it's easy for people to see when they're compiling their research. Does that make sense? So it's actually the perception might be that the wealthy own lots of property, but actually it's because you can see those investments. Absolutely. Yeah. I would say that that's skewed at someone. And so I can't give you the exact numbers because the researchers who do this professionally don't even know. But I would say that property is probably a lot smaller percentage of their overall portfolio than what is being presented.

32:29but when you're super wealthy there is nothing better than buying a trophy home and it's just it's a lifestyle decision isn't it all over the world yeah I'd like to be in Spain Italy all over so I'm out in winter imagine yeah I would just also get like a hundred keys card and send them to all my friends you'd be like here's your calendar it's a calendly book out your weekends like how fun would that be yeah exactly stock the wine cellar when you're done Yeah, yeah, yeah. Leave me a cue card. Tell me how much you love me. That's all I need. Basically, what you're saying is a lot of people on the rich list, while it might seem that they have lots of property and therefore it almost skews the way that people think about wealth.

33:08And also, you look at the wealthy and think they know what they're doing. I should do what they're doing. But actually, just remember, there's a lot that's undocumented or not public. So when you look at Taylor Swift only, however many properties she has, it is a tiny percentage of what she actually has. Yeah, that's right. Let's just wrap up this whole conversation because there may be people who are listening thinking, oh, well, stunning. I already own this property. So now what am I meant to do? Speaking for myself, how do we think about this then? What is a helpful reframe whether someone owns a property already, whether they don't and they aren't sure if they should be?

33:46How do we then think about this in relation to our future wealth growing? So it's all about diversification, as I was saying earlier. And if you're overweight property now, it's about rebalancing and looking at how you can invest your future savings and future wealth that may come. And so it's not about just running out and selling that property because it may not make sense to sell that property now. You may have capital gains tax unless you're in New Zealand and you don't have any. That's fantastic. But there may be the retransaction costs. So you can't just run out and sell that property. And that's not what I'm advising.

34:22but what you would look to do is any future investments that you can make government is not meddling in stock markets so much they're yes they've played around a bit with the pensions and isis recently which i think's the worst decision that they could do because these are things that people place trust in so dreadful decision and i hope that our future prime minister and chancellor reverse those decisions or at least clarify how they're going to be but ultimately the structure of property is very, very different and is continuing to be meddled with. The overall structure of the markets, while there are different instruments out there that you can invest in and different tax structures, overall, the fact that the stock market is somewhere where companies can go to get liquidity, so they can go to raise money to further their business, that fundamental fact has not changed.

35:16So when you invest in a stock, I think people lose track of actually when you're investing in a stock on the stock market, you're investing in a company that's not in startup mode sometimes, often, but you're still investing in an underlying company. So you still need to look at that underlying company. And that whole liquidity piece of the market's not changing, whereas everything else seems to be meddled with by the government. So it's more about control and predictability. Even though people think of the stock market is unpredictable. Actually, the regulation around it, the way that it works, the way that it moves, while, yes, the stock market goes up and down all the time, the fundamental asset of property has changed so much because of regulation, which has impacted the ability to grow wealth in it, which really is what underpins this whole conversation.

36:07Absolutely. Oh, God, I feel that stressed about the fact I have properties now. Yes, but we're working towards other asset classes. Would I then sell if I got a great price? And it would be like, cool, let's get out of there and move it somewhere else. So perhaps if someone does have property or properties, if they're in a position where it's not just go and panic sell or anything like that. But it might be actually that if there's an opportune moment to move around, they could. Absolutely. And my situation, I guess, is a good example because pre-2020, I had around 110 properties. and then of course we had all the uncertainty when COVID first hit and then what we had is all these people at home thinking oh I want to buy a property and so the property market went crazy you may recall in 2021 yeah and so I was fortunate I got to sell out nearly everything then at that time and so now I'm down to about my last 18 properties and way to make me feel really poor by the way Oh, my God.

37:10You do not. Honestly, honestly, I'll swap portfolios with you some days because it's so, so difficult. But that's a whole other podcast. But I'm selling down everything as soon as I can. So I'm ironing out issues in each property and then I'm selling them. And what am I doing with that money? I did do a bit of startup investing in the curve, for example, but mostly that's going in the markets. I'm putting it in unit trusts, which are actively managed funds. And then I feed those over into ISIS every April. So I just put my 20 ,000. I'm not investing in pensions anymore because they're now taxing pensions for inheritance tax purposes.

37:50And then I'm thinking longer term to invest in trusts for my children so that I can then pass down wealth in a tax efficient manner to my children. And that's all about long term wealth planning. But remember, I'm 48 soon. So my stage in life is very different. But just to go back to the property. You're really not that much older than me, though. And you have three kids, three dogs, nearly three ex-husband. I mean, you're really absolutely speeding ahead. My point is that as you can, try and sell down if that's the right thing for you. But ultimately, get advice. A good financial advisor will be able to help you with these decisions.

38:33Because I will say, for me, I do like the emotional investment in property in terms of my own space. And if I actually look at how much I made in the last two properties over the last, it was only 12 months, there's no way I would have made that knowing what the stock market's done in that time. So I think while, yes, there may be an argument that property isn't the best or only way to make money, I think if you have really clever strategies around property buying, whether it's an active and a passive approach like what I did, there is genuinely no way, even if the market was up 30%, 40%, that I would have made what I did in properties in the stock market.

39:13So I think, yeah, it depends where you're at and what you're looking for. But I think the biggest realisation for me is how exposed I am in property. I kind of thought I wasn't that much. And I was thinking, maybe I'll go for a third very quickly. But actually, maybe it's not the best thing for me right now. Maybe it's not. But you could spin this another way, actually. I was just thinking, if you think of equity investments as putting equity into companies, which is ultimately what it is, it just happens to be that these companies are listed on a stock market, but it's still investing equity.

39:41If you think about your investment in the curve, you're an equity holder. So actually, if you think about it from a diversification. I'm way more leveraged in startup life, aren't I? Yeah. My biggest asset. It's an equity. And I would say that you're exact. See where I'm going with this? But it's also not a startup anymore because you've done your startup raise. Are you joking? We're absolutely a startup. Do you think? Yes. After all these years now? Yes, definitely. I would love to say no, but we definitely are. You've got stability now. Thank you so much. but no we're definitely a startup if you look at like um i mean some people with 40 employees still consider themselves a star i think it's actually a revenue uh threshold in terms of if you're a startup or not not so much where you're at from a raising perspective anyway this is a conversation for another day thank you so much really interesting to get a different perspective a negative one i will say on property investing but really nice to hear different schools of thought and i will say if you're listening to this and feeling uninfused by property investing now we have got quite a few other really good episodes in property and I think it's more just about starting to learn about the different asset classes and make a decision that's right for you because while for you owning property is not of interest for a lot of people it is and so I think just remember take our thoughts in this conversation with a grain of salt because what is right for you is not necessarily right for everybody um so yes but thank you very much for joining us if people want to listen to your podcast is that still going yes it is so just search up nicole bremner and you'll find me but i will say i love property so i love it so much and it pains me that i cannot find a good investment that will make the returns that i need to but i just i just messaged a property finder a property saucer this morning and said if you find something in central london let me know but it's got to be a good bargain so you've got to be gracious with your presence more and are you missing it i miss london so yeah yeah so fun yeah it is so i don't i'm not saying that i'm negative property it just has to be the right property buying well absolutely yeah which comes down to as well like not being emotional about the purchase and perhaps trying to not be emotional regardless of your intention whether it's an investment purely or your home still try and be discerning with the way you buy and sell because if you buy well or sell well that can be how you can really make money in property too absolutely thank you so much and for anyone that wants to find out about our property podcast or learn more about property we will link in the podcast show notes some of our most listened to episodes because some of them have had over 10 ,000 downloads crazy okay well thank you so much thank you so thank you so much for listening to raising the curve these conversations are designed to teach you everything you need to know to be better with your money, from saving to investing to talking with your friends about your salaries, all of that stuff.

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43:06And always remember to do your own research before making any investment or financial decision. We're here for any knowledge and support you need, but the final call is always yours. And thanks for being here. You got this. Yeah, we know you got this.