What’s the ROI on looksmaxxing?

0:00Do you seek adventure and want to serve your country? The Central Intelligence Agency's Directorate of Operations is hiring. As a member of our team, you'll work on high-impact operations around the world, safeguarding our nation and making a difference. We're looking for individuals with a can-do attitude and a collaborative mindset. If you are looking for a challenging and rewarding role, explore available opportunities and apply online at cia.gov slash careers. And so this feeling when everything around you feels out of control and precarious, you are going to lean into what you can control.

0:36For a lot of people, that is that optimization.

0:43The ROI is still a gamble. I was a little bit worried that you would maybe judge me in terms of the amount of money that I spend on what I look like. It's interesting because you kind of described the dopamine loop of shopping. Optimization culture has been around for quite a while. Suffix maxing came from role-playing games and video games, and then kind of got co-opted by the Manosphere and incel forums. I do get both hooks, and I don't talk about it on the podcast because I don't want other people to feel like they need to. What is better, transparency or not promoting it? I think actually what's helped me a lot, immensely, is having age diversity in my female friendships.

1:24I'm for sure on the hot girl hands to oil and have not a clue how to get off it

1:32we stumbled across Hannah's content because she did this amazing article on Substack sort of about looks maxing and and this whole economy of spending money on what you look like to how you present online and digging into the psychology of what and why we're spending so much time and money on what we look like. And I think today's conversation, we wanted to link into Love Island because so many people watch it. Even if you don't watch the actual show, you'll know what we're talking about. You will have seen so many clips circulating. It's basically hot people in bikinis trying to fall in love in a villa, right?

2:07Yeah. This idea of looks maxing has been floating around the internet for a while. I actually weirdly think I stumbled across it in Louis Thoreau's documentary, the Manosphere one, when he was, because all of these guys are talking about looks maxing. But today we're really going to be talking about particularly women and the amount of money that we spend to look the way that we do, to present a certain way online. I have seen a sick amount of content from OnlyFans, content creators, to people on Love Island, to just actually people that would identify as just content creators or influencers, being open about the amount of money that they spend on how they look.

2:48That is the main concept we're going to speak about today. But for anyone that hasn't read your article, Hannah, what inspired you to write about this? Like where was the original, oh my God, I've got to discuss this topic? So I write a newsletter about money and how it intersects with our culture and how our economy has a direct or indirect relationship on how we see the world and ourselves and our own money. And so I write a lot about these big cultural forces like optimization culture, which has been a big one over the past few years, and how that's rooted in our current economic moment, and especially how young people think about and behave with their money.

3:26So when there's anything big culturally going on, like Love Island, a lot of times there is that financial angle because a lot of these big cultural movements or big cultural shows are a reflection of our current economy, whether we realize it or not. And so for me, I was really fascinated by – and this is what kind of prompted me and the angle I took in the article is to really look at how Love Island and reality dating shows like it are really emblematic of the attention economy that we're currently in and also a really direct reflection of the economic precarity that a lot of young people feel.

4:02And this idea of, you know, the traditional ways of being able to build financial security have really crumbled or a lot of people feel like they've crumbled. So the only viable route, and I put this in quotes because, you know, it's just a lot of it is perception based. The viable route is to commodify the self and to pursue visibility and to pursue fame. And you see that obviously in social media and how algorithmic a lot of our interactions have become and the idea of a personal brand and all of that. But also in these shows, and it's very obvious, especially in the past couple of years, I would argue, I mean, I think a lot of people go on these shows with the kind of, oh, it'd be nice to, you know, get recognized after the show's over.

4:41But I think in the past couple of years, many people have caught on to the fact that many of the people going on these shows are very aware of the fact that they're getting filmed and getting, you know, consumed online. And, you know, the way that they're presenting themselves on the show is a very direct reflection of that. And I found that very interesting and how it really goes to show how a lot of young people see like this is actually the career strategy is going on one of these shows with the possibility of getting famous. And what does that mean for like the broader economy and how we relate to each other and even like how we think about love?

5:15It's so interesting because if I'm being completely honest with myself, if I was going to be on the show in my bikini for weeks on end and the entire world was going to be looking at those clubs and dissecting them and we all know, to be honest, men or women on that show, it's all about what they look like. I would feel the same pressure too to want to look a certain way and show up in a certain way. I think it's really easy to just look at that, what you've just said in terms of people going on that show to get fame, to create a personal brand, to be able to create a business off the back of being known after being on a show like that and judge them for spending money on what they look like or getting plastic surgery.

6:02But actually, I totally get it. If I'm going to a wedding, go and get my nails done. I get my hair dyed. There's a much lesser version of that. Oh, yeah. I mean, it's the exact same thing as, like you just said, somebody, you know, getting Botox because they want to, like, look younger at work or, you know, like you said, getting your nails done. I mean, it's all the same thing. So, yeah, I definitely agree with you. We're like, I don't – I completely understand where a lot of these contestants are coming from. You know, there's been well-documented research about the beauty premium in the workplace, about people that are more, quote-unquote, conventionally attractive earn more money.

6:37They are more likely to get raises and promotions and get opportunities that someone who isn't quote-unquote conventionally attractive would get. And this show or like these contestants spending all this money and being very preoccupied with their appearance is just a larger, you know, example of that. And I think, too, because our culture is really elevating because of the influencer economy and the attention economy that we're in with social media, you know, the influencers are often exalted as like, oh, this is like actually the only viable way to become rich is to have this large presence online and to be very visible.

7:12And to be successful visibly, a lot of times it's to buy into those conventionally attractive norms. You know, even if you think that you're kind of immune to this stuff, you are kind of inadvertently doing it. It's so interesting you say that because I almost, as you were talking, was thinking of that scene in The Devil Wears Prada where she comes in in that blue sweater and she's, you know, has this kind of smug air about the fact that, you know, she doesn't buy into fashion. And then she gets totally told, well, like, what you're wearing, that particular shade of blue, and she gets completely ripped apart, Brad.

7:44Something funny?

7:49No. No, no, no. Nothing's, you know, it's just that both those belts look exactly the same to me. You know, I'm still learning about this stuff and, uh... This stuff? Oh, okay. I see. You think this has nothing to do with you. You go to your closet and you select, I don't know, that lumpy blue sweater, for instance, because you're trying to tell the world that you take yourself too seriously to care about what you put on your back. But what you don't know is that that sweater is not just blue, it's not turquoise, it's not lapis, it's actually cerulean. And you're also blithely unaware of the fact that in 2002, Oscar de la Renta did a collection of cerulean gowns.

8:38And then I think it was Yves Saint Laurent, wasn't it, who showed cerulean military jackets? I think we need a jacket here. And then Cerulean quickly showed up in the collections of eight different designers. And then it filtered down through the department stores and then trickled on down into some tragic casual corner where you no doubt fished it out of some clearance bin. However, that blue represents millions of dollars and countless jobs. and it's sort of comical how you think that you've made a choice that exempts you from the fashion industry when in fact you're wearing a sweater that was selected for you by the people in this room from a pile of stuff.

9:18There are people that are 100 % bucking the train. I mean, at one point I was trying to grow up my undribe hair because I was like, no, I refuse. You know, like I've tried to lean in both ways, but it's incredibly hard to be 100 % immune or to push all of these beauty standards completely away and not spend money on it. But I think for the average person who doesn't have a huge amount of money to go and spend, I mean, I would be so scared getting plastic surgery. Like actually changing my face or what I look like terrifies me, mainly because I'm scared of hospitals and can't afford it, wouldn't want to.

9:51But that's kind of irrelevant. I think that we all have our own version of what we've leaned into when it comes to what we prioritize. And I mean, I've been so guilty of judging friends who are constantly getting their nails done thinking like, God, you're spending so much money on that. But it's like, my hair is incredibly expensive to be blonde. So it's just, you know, everyone has either the insecurities or the things they want to spend money on that relate to how they show up from a looks perspective. But yeah, I mean, the fact that there's 57 % of Gen Zs that look at the idea of being an influencer and that is what they would choose to be if they had a chance to.

10:27because we are online so much the way that we've thought about making money or a career out of our life and who we are has increasingly become focused on online and so then what stems into that is this kind of like what we talk about in the curve office is this like hot girl hamster wheel where it's like well what are you paying for and once you pay for a little bit you start paying for more and more and more and of course love island contestants are the extreme of this but actually we're all buying into the same system. We are in a time of economic precarity, especially for young people. You know, it's hard to get a start in your career.

11:05There's like constant anxieties about layoffs. AI is disrupting a lot of things. You know, the cost of living is like outpacing a lot of people's wages. And so this feeling when everything around you feels out of control and precarious, you are going to lean into what you can control. Like you're going to do the thing that is responding to your effort. And for a lot of people, that is that optimization. That is that, you know, focusing on yourself. Like the body is the last investable asset. And for a lot of people, that is like a form of career insurance, as you said, which is so interesting.

11:37And of course, when there is a need, because the entire engine of consumer culture is built around aspiration. Like we all felt okay about ourselves and content with our lives. There would like be no consumer culture, right? Or like it wouldn't exist in the way that it is. It profits on you feeling inadequate in some way, especially the beauty industry. And so the beauty industry knows that we feel this anxiety about the economy and it's like, oh, we'll just do these little tweaks and you'll look young and refreshed and et cetera. And the other thing that you kind of touched on about the hot girl hamster wheel is it's built around this idea of maintenance where the business model is like, OK, great.

12:13We're just going to keep feeding this insecurity and get you to keep paying. And that's where you get the subscription model with a lot of these things where the, oh, you have to kind of update this every couple months to get people to keep spending money. It's like this thing that you kind of just can't get off of. Even in the weekend, Lucy, our social media manager, put this photo online of her eyelash lift. And I saw it and I immediately thought, I need that. That looks amazing. You know, and then you add that in and then you add in nails and then there's someone else that tells you you should try this.

12:41And before you know it, majority of your money is going to what you look like. Like I was saying to the girls in the office, I was like, it's embarrassing that I spend more money on this looks mixing or what I look like than I do travel. What the hell? Like when I actually looked at my spend from eyebrows to hair to nails to everything, I mean, it changes month to month, but it's an absurd amount of money. And you're right. It's so easy to get upsold into the next thing. You know, my hair is such a good example. I love having blonde hair. I feel so fun when I have it blonde. but you know I have to do it every three or four months and that's you know 270 pounds or something I mean it's this absurd amount of money but it is even though that's not a subscription as such it kind of is because by the time my blonde hair gets to hair I feel gross and ugly and I want to go get it done again and that's the thing about money a lot about maintenance spending is you start to identify with it and so once you start to identify with this activity and this spending it's really hard to opt out like once that gets wrapped up into your sense of self.

13:41And so I think for a lot of people, it's like, oh, I'm this woman who is this career professional that kind of is has it all together and is, you know, doing these things to myself. And for example, you identify as a blonde. That's part of your kind of identity, I assume. So it's hard for you to want to stop spending on that because it's it conflicts with your sense of self, you know, and you can feel yourself falling down an anxiety hole. I'm like, oh, shit, shit, shit, shit. I just spend so much money to look like this and I only look like this like not to be rude but think about the Love Island contestants or the OnlyFans contestants and I mean I was reading an article just before we started this and there's people that talk about you know and when I say people I mean honestly somewhat normal not you know Kim Kardashian but people who have maybe 100 ,000 followers and they're spending 60 to 100 ,000 USD on little tweakments every year I'm like that's a huge amount of money.

14:36I guess the question I would like to ask is, do you think or how do you see this as an investment? What is the return on investment for me, for a Love Island contestant? We're spending on what we look like and we are looks maxing. What is the return? Obviously, for someone on Love Island, it's probably a career and a business. But can we just talk more broadly about that spend and what the return we're expecting to get for it? I want to start by saying the ROI is still a gamble, even though people think there's better odds. Because let's use the example of Love Island. You know, obviously they're spending potentially thousands of dollars on clothes, veneers, you know, maybe some tweakments, their hair before they go on the show.

15:19But there's also aspirational labor, which is that unpaid work that you're doing with the hopes of getting paid later. So, for example, like a lot of them are quitting their jobs. A lot of workplaces are not letting you take six to eight weeks off work to go be on a reality show. So a lot of them are quitting their jobs. A lot of them are putting other things they need to be doing aside. And they're doing that almost unpaid labor. And I don't know about UK, but on the US, they do get paid. But it's not nearly enough to have a career just getting paid. I want to say, don't quote me, but I think it's like$250 a day or something.

15:52Oh, it's so low. I remember we interviewed someone that was on a show. And I can't remember what it was. as an Australian reality show and they were paid, it was like 50 a day or something outrageous. Yeah. It's almost, I mean, I think in the US it's like below minimum wage if you were working those actual hours because they're filming for like probably 12 to 14 hours a day. So again, so that's not a career clearly, but what they're doing is it's that, it's that expectation that it could be something much bigger. And, you know, again, the people that you see online are the ones that did find that success.

16:21And you see the six figure brand deals and, you know, all the free luxury items are getting and stuff. And like, don't get me wrong. I mean, we've people humans have been wanting to be famous for a while, like being famous seems fun. And then it's also this aspect of like, oh, they're able to kind of crack the code and be wealthy. But again, it is almost like a lottery system because, you know, the vast majority or I don't say the vast, but the majority of people that are going on these rally shows are not going to be Molly May. You know, there's actually a good chance they might have to go back to their old careers.

16:55And then of course, you get into the whole nuances of how that type of fame affects your long-term career if you're working in a completely different industry than influencing. And again, so I think it goes back to the idea of like, well, I'm seeing online that this seems like a sure shot to celebrity and money. And when you're working that regular nine to five job and you're making$40 ,000 to$50 ,000 a year, you feel like you can't get ahead, that influencer bet looks like a good bet to take. And I think that's what a lot of young people are blaming towards. And it looks glamorous. Like it looks fun.

17:27So I was looking up some stats around how much people are being paid and it's 0.3 % of YouTubers that actually earn around 5 ,000 a month. And obviously you've got the massive names like, is it Mr. Beast? I've actually not watched any of his content, but he reportedly earned 54 million in 2023. So of course there's places and platforms and people that are earning absolutely insane amounts of money. But$5 ,000 a month for that to not even be 1%, it's a massive gamble. So on the one hand, I almost look at people who are quitting their jobs, investing so much in what they look like. And in this career path, I'm kind of like, it's sort of brave in today's economy, because if you look back to five years ago or more, reality TV, generally the contestants became stars.

18:14It was just the way that it worked. Now it's way harder. Even if you're on a national show like, you know, Love Island, it's actually not guaranteed. You're right. It is risky. So on the one hand, I'm kind of like, well, good on you. You're going full tit on this and really like properly trying to invest. But it's more just in the way that that flows down into the everyday people like me thinking I need to spend X amount to look a certain way, because then I'm seeing those people online and on my feeds. And they're the ones that have potentially invested over a hundred grand to look the way they do.

18:44The stat I also like to cite is that the average content creator makes 15 ,000 USD a year, which is very obviously not livable. And while a lot of people do do content creation as like a side hustle, it does go to show just how saturated the creator or influencer space has gotten, where there's that kind of top tier group of small group of creators that is making those big bucks. And then there's kind of everybody else. It's kind of mirrors the like wealth inequality that you can see in a lot of different other industries. But But what I find so interesting about it is the fact it's almost it also reflects a lot of the like gambling like, you know, activities that a lot of young people do.

19:24Like the meme stocks and the day trading and, you know, that kind of stuff. Because when you're working a nine to five job, it's actually fairly easy to sort of forecast what your life and wealth could look like. Right. And for a lot of people, they feel like I am not going to ever feel any sort of financial security or really feel like I'm getting ahead if I continue down this career path. And even though influencing and things like that feels like that bigger gamble, it has much bigger upside. And so I think a lot of young people are willing to take that risk and do that riskier activity because of them.

20:00It's like they almost feel like they don't have another choice. They're like, the cost of living is going up way faster than I can handle it. And so truly the only way for me to even attempt to get ahead is to take that kind of big leap and that big risk. Which on the one hand is brave and actually important that we try and take more risks when it comes to our earning capacity and what you're describing and people being financially aware enough to know that what they're doing is they're just on the cycle of being able to just keep up and are never going to get ahead is kind of amazing that we're starting to look at that and think, well, what are we meant to do and how are we meant to get ahead?

20:36And if for some people that feels like the option for them is to be an influencer or a content creator, I mean, good on them because I would absolutely not have the confidence to go do something like that. I do agree with that, you know, for the most part. However, and this is like where I get my nihilistic hat on is where I get concerned is specifically being in the public eye and being part of the creator economy, your incentive structure is around an algorithm. And so the algorithms typically reward sensationalism, just insane behavior and perverseness. And so So if your entire career is built around performing for this specific algorithm, like exaggerating your behavior, et cetera, how does that bleed into your day-to-day interactions with people?

21:27And I think this gets into a little bit about how transactionalized so much of our relationships have become and the way that we interact with the world. And that is my little concern about when you're so used to performing, who are you outside of that when the cameras aren't on? And I think all of us are reckoning with that, even if we're not creators. I mean, we all look at our phones and stuff like that. And a lot of us post online and post our lives online. And so, you know, this feeds into this broader, you know, way that a lot of us think about the world and think about how we interact both digitally and in real life.

22:02Have you ever looked into how much people spend on what they look like and what their upside is financially, whether it's the everyday woman or someone on a reality TV show? Yeah. So there's no clean data, unfortunately, but I think the absence of that data is sort of like part of the story. So there is the research that I have cited is there has been documentation, like pretty good documentation that, you know, people that are quote unquote, and I use quotes here when I say conventionally more attractive because that definition is intentionally subjective or in 10 to 15 percent more than their counterparts.

22:39There's also been data about people that are quote unquote conventionally attractive. You know, if they're actors getting jobs, you know, getting more opportunities. You know, you think about like the concept of pretty privilege. Like that is like been fairly well documented. But there's no like clean and hard data about like you are going to make X percent more. And what makes that interesting to me is like that goes to show that there is like you don't actually know like, OK, if I invest$10 ,000 in myself, there's not a ton of proof about like how much more money I could make. And I think that's kind of the point.

23:08And like the beauty industry wants that to be the point where there's no end point. Yeah, it's quite interesting because like, especially I know at the start of this conversation, you mentioned you don't wear makeup and I just feel like that is so iconic. And I really want to get into that because I'm for sure on the hot girl hamster wheel and have not a clue how to get off it. So I would love to come back to that. But one of the things that you talk about is like the final stop on the train and that it's been going for a while and what came before looks maxing and where we are now. And when you say the idea of like the final stop on the train, do you think that we're getting close to the end of this being something we pour money and time into?

23:46I would love to understand your thoughts on that. When I was writing about this concept of a train, I was writing about it as kind of a metaphor for where optimization culture is going. And optimization culture has been around for quite a while. and it kind of feeds, as we talked about earlier, it feeds on this concept that we all have lost control over a lot of areas of our life. You know, how much we work, whether we can afford certain things. And so it's this idea of like, like I said before, then the body becomes the last thing you can invest in. Cause it's like, okay, I can't control if I buy a home or see my friends, but I can't control my body and my face and like what I look like.

24:20And so a term like looks maxing is kind of just a linguistic way of describing that. Suffix maxing came from role-playing games and video games and then kind of got co-opted by the Manosphere and Incel forums and even like pro eating disorder and anorexia forums. And it's all about just pushing your stats to the limit. And what is so interesting to me about how looks maxing has gotten co-opted by the optimization culture is it really insinuates that we are, you know, a project or a product to be managed. You know, we have stats. And this feeds into, like, people wearing wearables. Like, now we know how we're sleeping and what are, you know, I'm like, do we need to know, like, our blood pressure every second of the day?

25:09Some people do. I would argue that I probably don't. Or, like, how many steps I've taken a day? Do I need to know that information? Like just and it gets it kind of diffuses. So it starts as this term and kind of diffuses outwards. And it's gotten really co-opted by, you know, all different facets of optimization culture and then kind of used in consumerism. And then you get these aesthetics like, you know, I'm like a clean girl and all the products that come along with having that aesthetic. And so I said before, like the train, that's kind of like the vocabulary of optimization migrating outwards from work and how we think about work.

25:43Because oftentimes when we think about optimization, we think about work to fitness, to body, to the face. And we pretty much already agreed that a person can be productive or unproductive. Again, like what does that really mean? or on brand or off brand. And the kind of end of the train is that kind of, you know, what's that next stop of how we're thinking about ourselves as products, literally, instead of human beings. So it's more the idea that when you think about work and productivity, that's something that has become quite normalized. And we talk about a lot like, are you productive? Are you not?

26:18And we've moved on and on and on to measuring things in such granular detail, where it's like, okay, well, this is now. The last stop is, okay, your face and how you look, how much are you optimizing? The words we use to describe ourselves are often very financialized and transactionalized, and it almost makes it seem like we are machines. And it almost like kind of eliminates a lot of our humanity. An example I use is I was in a therapy session once, and I was talking to my therapist, and I was saying like, oh, you know, I'm feeling very emotional about this thing. I was like, but like, that's not a productive emotion.

26:52It's not productive for me to feel this way. And she stopped me and she said, what does that mean? What does that mean to have a productive emotion? And that really stopped me where I was like, oh, my gosh, you know, like the way that we think about, you know, our time, the way we hang out with other people. And a lot of that has to do with this broader optimization culture. It assumes that everything has to be efficient and optimized. But again, what does that mean? And I think that connects to this like broader feeling of everything has to be this like perfect, well-spent time. And again, it ignores kind of the humanness of it all.

27:27Shit, shit, shit. This is such an intense conversation, isn't it? There's just so much to it. I would say I probably think about this kind of stuff maybe more than the average person just because I write about it. But it's been hard for me because I'm not immune to these external forces that we all feel. You know, like I said before about the therapy session, but I do find myself, you know, I was saying before, I don't wear makeup, but I definitely do. I definitely like do the facials and do the microneedling. And, you know, I think a lot about my appearance. And part of that is because I post content online and it's very hard to not opt out.

28:01And so I think if anybody takes anything away from this conversation, it's, you know, it's so easy to frame this as a personal problem. Like, just do not do this. But that ignores this giant system that is – this giant apparatus that has, like, made it so pressuring that feels like we can't opt out of it. And that's what I really try to point out in my content that it's like a lot of our – in America, because we're such a capitalistic country, we have a tendency – Do you seek adventure and want to serve your country? The Central Intelligence Agency's Directorate of Operations is hiring. We are looking for individuals with a can-do attitude and a collaborative mindset.

28:35If you are looking for a challenge, apply online at CIA.gov slash careers. To frame these huge issues as individual issues. Firstly, I'd love to know how did you distinguish what you would and wouldn't buy into in terms of makeup you don't, but microneedling you will. Like, how did you decide what you did and didn't want to opt out of? For me, the no makeup is actually rooted in my own, you know, I'm actually fairly type B. so I think for me I'm like oh you know I don't it's the time of it all of like putting on the makeup it's probably rooted in like the sense of like laziness about that and you know most of our days and times is spent around I want to focus on this thing more I want more than I want to focus on this other thing so I just found myself wanting to focus on things more than doing my hair and and doing my makeup and again it's like comes into this a little bit of like a hypocrisy because it's like oh you know I don't want to get Botox but I am getting these other things and who's to say these other things are quote unquote better than getting Botox.

29:34And so then that gets into the cultural language on how we describe things. Like there are certain cosmetic surgeries that are more stigmatized than others, but why, you know, why do we care so much that, oh, this celebrity got this one thing, but it's not a huge deal if they get this other thing. And then of course, as I'm sure you think about and have read about, there's this other interesting thing where, you know, celebrities will get something, very obviously get something and be like, oh, I didn't get that. I'm just drinking water. I'm doing lasers. And it's like, no, you got, and again, nobody has a right to comment on somebody else's body.

30:08And like, you don't have to share the information if you don't want to. But I do find it interesting that like, I'm going to come out and, you know, say that I didn't do this thing that I very clearly did. It's like the Anne Hathaway, you know, oh, all I do is like pin my hair up in these cute little side braids and it gives me a full facelift look. It's like, come on. We weren't born yesterday. day. You look the same as you did 20 years ago. Do not tell me you did not get a facelift. Like, it's just not. And I think that that was something I wanted to ask you about was, what is better transparency or not promoting it?

30:38Because on the one hand, I feel really uncomfortable talking about, I mean, like I do get Botox and I don't talk about it on the podcast because I don't want other people to feel like they need to. I know it's my own insecurity. I know it's expensive and a waste of money, but not talking about it almost makes people think that I just naturally look like this. You said something really interesting that I want to touch on. And you know, as someone that writes a lot about money and I get these types of questions for people. And the way I try to give this holistic advice is the way that you spend your money.

31:10Money is a tool to help you live the life you want to live. And there's, I try to shy away from, you know, good and bad. And I want to touch on actually, you said Botox is a waste of money. And I would argue that phrase isn't always that helpful because it could, you know, improve your life. It could make you feel better about yourself. It could help you show up better in the workplace. You know, obviously I'm, I'm, I don't know if that's the case here, but I'm just saying that it could. And so this idea of, you know, in personal finance, this idea of like unnecessary versus necessary spending, the vast majority of our spending is quote unquote unnecessary, but it could have outsized impact in our life.

31:45And so what I try to, you know, counsel people on is making sure your money is being spent in a way that aligns with your values and how you see yourself and as little as possible influenced by these external forces. So if you want to get the deep plane facelift or do the Botox or get the microneedling, and that is going to really add value to your life and you genuinely want to have it, great. Just as long as it's not the result of I saw these Instagram ads or I saw this celebrity have it and it made me want to have it, it made me feel bad about myself. And so there's so much nuance there, but again, it's this deep understanding of yourself and what you care about and what you value, and then using your money to help you live that life.

32:23But at the same time, I just want to counter that though and say, okay, it's fine to say that it's unhelpful to say Botox is a waste of money. But if I look at the amount I spent on Botox and I think about the fact that if I'd invested that, it would be astronomically more valuable in terms of actual monetary value. yeah it's I know exactly what you're saying but would I be getting Botox if I wasn't constantly told that as a woman your value is lost by the age of 35 because your value is only in your beauty you know it there's it's easy to like I know objectively it's a waste of money because who cares if you have wrinkles it's a life well lived and all of those things I desperately want to almost push against that narrative of going and spending an absurd amount of money on stopping your face from moving because I know that value or return on investment genuinely would be better in other places but and yes it makes me feel better doing it and yes but it's like but why why would I not feel okay without it anyway and then that's the whole spiral I think that's a point because there's going to be ageism in the workplace.

33:41And like, you know, you can feel convicted that, you know, I don't want to be part of this trend, but you're still in a world where people are going to judge you. And like we were saying before, there is a measurable cost to like not doing certain things. I think actually what's helped me a lot immensely is having age diversity in my female friendships. Seeing like, for me, especially with my older female friendships, it's like, okay, everything's going to be okay. Like these women, they're amazing. You know, all this, I have so much anxiety about, you know, being a young woman and working and stuff like that.

34:15And I think having those mentors to look up to, I think is so valuable. And I'm not saying that having older female friendships is going to make you not want to do Botox, like, you know, but, but I think again, it gives you different perspectives. Yeah. It's representation that your life doesn't end when you're not quote unquote young and beautiful. And you know, So it's the idea of, and actually I saw something, it was just a video on Instagram or TikTok and it was this woman saying, you know, essentially all she wants is for women to not fear the idea of being 40 and it actually gets better the older you get.

34:49And if you have friends that you see lived experience of that, of course that reinforces it. So it then means you probably feel less pressure from just purely a looks perspective to like deny that aging because aging comes with actually with wisdom, with knowing your body better, with having better sex, better relationships, all of the things that are totally stripped out of the conversation of age when all someone focuses on is youth is your value. It's like, well, actually, there's all these women living these amazing lives that are 50, 60, 70. Don't tell me my life ends at 30 because, you know, but it is just, so I really like the advice of look around you and find other role models of people in different ages.

35:30Do you look at the amount of money you spend from a personal finance perspective on looks-maxing or what you look like? What percentage is that? And have you cut that back as you were really diving into this topic? As I've gotten more into writing about money psychology and understanding why we are making the financial decisions we're making, I am just naturally cutting things out of my budget. I think I spend probably, I think at the beginning close to a thousand dollars a month, probably on beauty treatments. A lot of my, I lump in like beauty and wellness because it's kind of all part of the same optimization culture.

36:08You know, I do a lot of those types of treatments, like, you know, my lymphatic drainage, you know, the microneedling, you know, that kind of thing. And it's all part of the same kind of project, so to speak. And I think in doing this, it made me just reevaluate. Because again, it just made me reevaluate like, is this thing, you know, actually working for me? But I have been, I'm curious your thoughts. I have been thinking, you know, I'm turning 30 this year. I feel like, you know, of course, it's just like one of those milestones that we like to anchor ourselves to. But I do think a lot about, you know, I am going to, you know, start more visibly aging over the next decade.

36:45And what is my relationship to that going to be? How is that going to make me feel? How am I going to contend with that external pressure to do something about it? And that's not to say I maybe I will, you know, do something about it and like get those tweakments or something like that. But but but like, how do I prepare for it? If at all, I was talking to some friends actually, like early this week, and we were kind of joking, like, oh, we need to like, start saving now, because in 10 years, like, we'll need to get a facelift and those facelifts cost you know ten thousand dollars and i'm like i don't want to have to budget for this like yeah i don't want to be saving up for this thing you know it's just oh my gosh yeah i was thinking the other day i'm fairly positive based on how psycho my grinding is that i'm gonna need a new full set of teeth by the time i'm like 50 and then i was thinking oh how much of any is look them up insanely expensive and and you know on the one hand it's back to your point where you were saying, you know, like we'd sort of demonize these enormous things like a facelift, but then we sort of let things slide like lip filler or Botox.

37:49And it's sort of like, why? I know. Our sense of normal is based on what we look at the most. And so when our feeds or the people around us are dominated by, you know, people with all these treatments or people whose literal job it is to sell you an aesthetic, your baseline is going to change for what is considered normal. And it's difficult between like you, I think you pointed out this, this kind of dichotomy really well, where it's like, do you actually want this thing? Or is society telling you to do this thing? It almost doesn't matter because, you know, you're going to feel that pressure no matter what.

38:29And how do you separate those two things between something I really want to get versus I'm so just embedded in this optimization culture and I feel like I have to do this thing and there's no way to separate my true desires from what this broader culture is telling me to do. Yeah. And then there's also, you know, if I, if I look at myself as an example, my own little project, which is my face and body, which let's be honest, all of us feel when I've had my hair done, if I've had Botox, I've got my eyebrows done. If I have spent money on going to the gym and like, to be fair for me, exercise has definitely become over the years so much more about how I feel than how I look, but still falls in the same bucket.

39:08Uh, the clothes that I wear, you know, I, all of those things and all of the money that I'm spending on stuff makes me feel better. I do feel more confident. I do feel more, um, I don't know. I just feel, I do feel better about myself when I spend money on that. But you know, is that, I mean, it's, sad. It's not, is it? It is sad because I shouldn't have to, to feel that same sense of confidence. I was even reflecting before this conversation, I had a wedding a few weekends ago and I'd run out of makeup and I asked if we could stop at a chemist on the way from being picked up from the train to head to the house.

39:45Cause I didn't, I knew I didn't have any makeup and I was like, I really want this. There's, you know, some, there's things on this week that I want to feel cute for and I went and spent 120 pounds on you know like um stuff my face lip gloss all sorts of things didn't do research on what products to buy just panic spent all this money instantly felt better I felt excited when I woke up to use these new products felt better when I'd done it you know it's just like how do you unwind this sort of pressure to spend whatever hamster you're on yeah I well first I'll say I had a similar story so I have a ton of gray hairs and I was actually at a wedding and I was like, oh my gosh, I have to dye my hair.

40:20And so I like DoorDash, which in America, it's like, you know, delivery. I like DoorDash hair dye. And it was like so expensive because it was delivery. And it was like for this like$10 box of hair dye because I was like, oh my God, I can't imagine having graze at this wedding. And again, I think, I don't know for you, but for me it's rooted in like people are going to see and judge me if I don't have this thing done. I think it's hard. And it's interesting because you kind of described the like the dopamine loop of shopping where we feel a trigger. So for you, maybe it was like this lack of confidence or anxiety.

40:51And then your impulse is to then spend money. And a lot of times we get that dopamine rush, not even when we use the products, but just when we're actually spending because it's that anticipation of having the products and potentially using them that gives us that rush of dopamine. And then it's a spiral because the dopamine is going to wear off and then we're going to feel that trigger again and so on. So with that, I always, and that's how a lot of impulsive spending happens, whether you're anxious, bored, you know, et cetera. So a big thing with that for me is trying to interrupt those cycles as much as possible.

41:23So identifying like, what is that trigger? Like, am I feeling unconfident? Am I feeling anxious? You know, et cetera. Am I feeling upset? Is there a way to meet that need without spending money? And just, again, it all just comes from just being more aware of what you're doing when you're doing it. The kind of like practical things I'll recommend to people, admitting that this is quite hard, Like this is a huge issue and it's quite difficult to do. But as much as you possibly can is cull your content diet for like a couple weeks. As in try to spend less time on social media. Genuinely unfollow or mute accounts that you feel like, you know, do certain things.

42:00I know these algorithms now, they just push a lot of ads. So I know it can be quite hard to like avoid these things. But as much as you can. I think that's really good because practical is really helpful. It's so easy to sit here and be like, this is an issue. And, you know, of course we're going to feel like this because you've got Love Island contestants who have perfect boobs, bums, stomach, they've had fat sucked here, there and everywhere. And, you know, of course we all know this, but we still live in this world and we still want to engage with most of us want to engage with this world. And, yeah, like I think giving practical tips to start reducing the overwhelm and start to get closer to what are you spending on and what actually do you want to spend on is important.

42:39Do you have any other things that you've done personally to try and strip stuff out of your budget that you then realize you didn't actually need? Yes. Going through spending, any of that beauty spending, writing it all down. And then, like you said, I love a ranking. Because, again, if you go through this, I think it's like, I'm just going to stop spending money on beauty. It's like going on a very restrictive diet. It might work for a little bit, but you are going to likely – it's not sustainable. So how do you build a more sustainable relationship to this thing? Or maybe you're spending on these 10 things.

43:08Can you cut it down to five? Can you cut it down to eight? That is better than nothing. The other thing too is I'm very wary of anything that is subscription based. So if there's something that is requiring some sort of recurring transaction, a lot of times it's just in the company's best interest to offer that. So being very wary when you're kind of getting into that type of situation. And then the one thing outside of looking at your budget is I really recommend building an identity domain outside of consumption. And what I mean by that is like running, joining a run group, writing, joining a knitting group, building, showing up at community meetings, things that aren't built around buying things.

43:49A lot of our culture is built around consumption. And so the less time you can spend like consuming consumption, as in like looking at your social media feed or buying things, the more detached your identity will become from buying. And then maybe you might feel less compulsion or impulse to spend money. Very good tips. What about just the question around, am I not feeling enough or am I relying on external things to give me confidence? And is that fake confidence? I can't speak to everyone's personal journey with self-confidence. I share, I think, a lot of similarities to you. I personally feel that building confidence comes from a deep understanding and knowledge of yourself.

44:33And so just really taking the time of thinking, what do I care about? What type of life do I want to live? What do I want to be known for and respected for? And don't get me wrong, it's a lot easier to measure some of these very tangible things like how much money you have versus am I a good friend? Am I a good partner? And so it's understandable we kind of like lean towards these more materialistic things. But taking that time to like understand how you want to show up in the world, I think, again, just I think helps just a little bit. Because when you understand yourself, a great example is someone came to me and they said, you have blonde hair.

45:07I'd be like, no, I don't. But, you know, because it's like I don't. And when you and so it's the same if if someone tells you, you know, you need to get this thing. If I identify like I know myself, I'd be like, I don't need to get that. That's not who I am. And so it goes into like this deep understanding of yourself. But there's a huge caveat here, which is we're in a lifelong relationship with ourselves. And it's never going to be this beautiful upward trajectory because we're not products. We're not companies. We're human. And there's so many periods of my life where while I think that I have – like you've gotten more confidence, I've gotten older.

45:40I'll go through deep periods of insecurity. And the hope is that I will say I will eventually kind of get through this. This is just a phase or whatever. But understanding that this is all just part of being alive and being human and being a woman and just understanding that's all part of kind of, quote unquote, the journey. Because you're never going to be this like – I mean, if somebody is – I mean, that's amazing for them. But for me, I'm never going to be this perfect, confident person 24-7 and just having kind of that acceptance of that. It's so interesting speaking to you because I thought after reading your article and researching on this topic and how you speak about it, I was a little bit worried that you would maybe judge me in terms of the amount of money that I spend on what I look like.

46:27And I knew coming into this conversation, I had to be really open about that because I am really open with almost everything really on this podcast. And it's so refreshing to hear you as someone who has researched the absolute shit out of this conversation and topic, yet still buy into things like and spend a lot of money on what you look like. I think it's really nice to hear it from someone that is still grappling with the exact same to and fro of, I don't really want to be buying into this. I do want to opt out, but I can't totally. And I haven't yet. And I'm trying this. But I think it's just as refreshing to not hear it from someone that's got it all sorted.

47:07Yeah, I do sometimes feel a bit ashamed of how much I spend on what I look like. and I thought perhaps that you would not have the answer but definitely be sort of this evolved woman that wasn't spending and it's really nice to hear that you're still in the process of that literally three days ago I was googling lower bleph surgeries because I was like looking over the camera I was like my eye bags are insane I was like googling and I was like no so like it Like I said, it's never going to truly go away because, right, we live in a society. But all I can do is just we can all just try our best.

47:46And I think awareness, while it doesn't always drive behavior change, I think it's always a good step in the right direction just to be aware and be forgiving of yourself, especially as women. Like our entire culture is designed in a lot of ways to make us feel bad about ourselves. So just understand that and like be a little bit kinder and more forgiving. it's true because the more that you are discerning of how you're being sold to coupled with being aware of what you love about yourself and what you know to be true you become a harder person to be sold to because these products you know kind of just you end up it's like silly and it just washes over you but until you're able to do that you will just buy buy, buy, buy, spend, spend, spend.

48:33If you're about to go and buy something, is it in the category of looks maxing or self-optimization? And did you think you needed that? And have you thought about it for a while? Not just you've seen something, it's touched an insecurity and immediately you act by spending. Yeah, a hundred percent. I mean, if you don't, when you deeply understand yourself, like you said, it's much harder to be sold to. But if you don't take the time to figure that out, society is going to tell you. There's going to be an external force that's going to tell you who you are and what you need to buy. And yeah, 100%.

49:05I mean, but we're all not immune to it. It's going to be, it's all around us. Hannah, thank you so much for inspiring me to look at what I spend money on and how I look. And just this whole conversation, I think, can be one that we feel very alone in because we sit in our rooms on our phones feeling insecure when we see things online. And actually, that's such a shared experience. So to put words to it and research and just like help to try and think about it differently and zoom out a bit has been really refreshing. If everyone who's listening is feeling really inspired as well, where can they find you, read more, follow your content?

49:41Yeah, so I write a sub stack called Your Brain on Money and you can also find me on Instagram and TikTok at those same handles. And like I said before, I write about money and culture, which of course includes Looks Maxine. Thank you so much, Hannah. It was so amazing to meet you and hopefully we can talk again because I feel like we probably could do about seven podcasts. So many topics. Thank you so much for listening to Raising the Curb. These conversations are designed to teach you everything you need to know to be better with your money, from saving to investing to talking with your friends about your salaries, all of that stuff.

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50:43And always remember to do your own research before making any investment or financial decision. We're here for any knowledge and support you need, but the final call is always yours. And thanks for being here. you got this yeah we know you got this