7 Stoic Strategies To Deal With Jerks

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1:18And by the way, it's always been this way, and it always will be. But the good news is, the Stoics have some timeless strategies for dealing with this. Right? Not just putting up with them, but finding a way to appreciate other people, to get along well with other people, and do good for other people. And that's what we're going to talk about in today's episode. Stoic strategies for dealing with jerks and assholes.

1:47Ryan Holiday: What's the best response when you meet someone who's a jerk? When you meet someone who's rude? When you meet someone who's awful? When you meet someone who's annoying? Well, 2 ,000 years ago, Marcus Aurelius, in his meditation, he tells us how to think about it and what to do about it. He says, when you run up against someone else's shamelessness, ask yourself, is a world without shamelessness possible? No, then don't ask the impossible. He says, there have to be shameless people in the world. This is one of them. And he says, tell yourself the same is true for someone vicious or untrustworthy or with any other defect.

2:18Ryan Holiday: He says, if you remember that the whole class has to exist, it will make you more tolerant of its members. Right? And then he says, and it's worth keeping this in mind too, that nature has given us qualities to counteract this defect, to respond to this. He says, as an antidote to unkindness, it gave us kindness and other qualities to balance out other people's flaws. That's just wonderful advice, right? You're never going to have a perfect record. You're never going to hit all green lights. You're going to meet some people who are annoying. You're going to meet some people who are obnoxious. You're going to meet some people who are shameless, some people who are dishonest, some people who are cruel.

2:55Ryan Holiday: And when you remind yourself, yeah, this is one of those people. It was statistically certain that I was going to meet one of those people helps calm you down, helps you not be surprised, and then it helps you get to work doing what he said, which is counteracting their defect with your virtues. You respond to unkindness with kindness, respond to dishonesty with honesty, respond to greed with generosity and charity. And so this is ultimately what Marcus means when he says the obstacle is the way. Not only is it inevitable we're gonna meet people like this, but they give us a chance to respond to them well.

3:30He also reminds us that kindness is invincible. No one can stop us from being kind. He almost sounds like he's riffing from the Bible, you know, about returning kindness to an injury is like heaping hot coals on someone's head. He says, what can even the most vicious person do if you keep treating them with kindness, if you gently set them on the right path, if you get the chance, right? Correcting them cheerfully and patiently and lovingly. He says, think of them as your friend, right? Tell them, hey, this isn't what we do here. This isn't what we're here for. Show them, teach them, do them gently without pointing fingers.

4:09Again, the best revenge is to not be like that. Don't do it ironically. Don't do it performatively. Understand we are here to be patient. We are here to be kind. We are here to work with each other and that that ultimately is what is all about.

4:29You know, you've been at the airport when you see people fucking flipping out and they're yelling at somebody that had nothing to do with it and cannot control the situation and make it better for you. Because this, you know, this dude is going with this fucking cell phone out and waving it going, my seat was business and now I'm in the back. And yeah, it happens and it sucks. But don't be that person. you're yelling at somebody who has can't not do a thing about it yeah it feels like splitting hairs

5:01Ryan Holiday: but it's like okay if the airline fucked up i get why you're a little upset but this is a storm like like this is like every plane in the entire airport is on the ground because there's a lightning storm right and and you're you're thinking that if you're just super rude to this person at the computer they can fix that yeah exactly yes that's that's a better way to put it just just like well sir it's hailing yeah and we cannot fly when the oh did you say you really have to get where you're going i just didn't know yeah okay well we do have a plane for people like you yes right i i but going back even to the punching down to i do try to remind myself that these as as abhorrent as this behavior is i try to go i have no idea where this per like how many hours this person traveled to get here, how many horrible things have happened to them along the way, what kind of anxiety they're bringing to...

5:54Ryan Holiday: I try to, having had my own share of like, wow, I really wish I'd handled that better, I do try to go, this person, as horrible as they're behaving, is not having a good time. Like something is wrong inside this person. Yeah, I mean, that's noble.

6:14Ryan Holiday: this idea of not taking the bait is really really important and in our popular mythologizing and understanding of the civil rights movement we don't we don't give them enough credit we don't understand what actually happened there like the civil rights movement wasn't this spontaneous movement where a bunch of people got fed up rosa parks doesn't suddenly decide to sit down on the bus one day, didn't march through the streets and then, you know, not break ranks when they were attacked with dogs or fire hoses. This was the result of an incredible amount of discipline, and that discipline was the result of an incredible amount of training.

6:52Ryan Holiday: There was a school, it's called the Highlander School in Tennessee, that all the great civil rights leaders went to, Rosa Parks being one, Martin Luther King being another, Septima Clark being another, John Lewis goes there. They go there and you know what they do? They practice people shouting racial slurs at them, people beating them, people trying to provoke them, people trying to get them to take the bait. This was something they practiced. They'd exposed themselves to over and over and over again. So it lost its purchase over them. It was discipline and training in there. And I do think that if you're going to be involved in the public sphere, if you're going to be involved in public life, you have to be able to do that.

7:31Ryan Holiday: I took my son to a protest a couple of weeks ago in Austin in an ICE protest, and there were these sort of neo-Nazi protesters that came that were like sort of screaming in our face and saying all these things. You know, there had been a chosen person who was to go around and sort of intervene and go like, remember, all they want here is for you to respond so then they can cut that piece of a video and post it online. But I was talking to my nine-year-old about this, just like, look, obviously what these people are saying is abhorrent, and we'll talk about what it means later. But like what this is practicing is being antagonized and provoked and jabbed over and over and over again.

8:07Ryan Holiday: And we're developing this muscle of ignoring it and not responding. And this requires strength and discipline. And to me, this is when people talk about the Stoics as being unfeeling. It's for moments like this when the feeling is dangerous, when the feeling is going to work against you. The Stoics are practiced. Great activists are practicing the ability to not be provoked and to do this thing that's damaging. Now, as far as the political pragmatism and the responding and how do you do it, I do think there is something there. When Mark Stamilis is saying the best revenge is to not be like that, what I think he means is to not become like your enemy.

8:44Ryan Holiday: That's one of the other translations. The best revenge is to not be like your enemy. and when I think about these people who are going around screaming these horrible things I think about the people who are you know licking boots or carrying water for for this fascist regime I think I feel pity I feel uh sorrow and I I see them ultimately as a kind of a cautionary tale like I want to be effective in responding to this I want to be effective in defeating it which was what effective politicians have to do but the most powerful thing the foremost way that we win is by not being like those people.

9:18Ryan Holiday: That's what Marcus is saying.

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11:40Ryan Holiday: Oh, to go to the other thing, which I do think about as stoic, the idea of like adversity is a terrible thing to waste. It's not always an economic downturn or like a cancer diagnosis or some huge thing. I was like, this woman is totally wrong and she's being a jerk. And I was like, can I not like what I said to myself as this is happening? I was like, do you think I could get out of this appointment without getting upset? Like I was like, that was like the thing for me is like, I'm not going to get upset. I'm like totally justified in throwing it back at this person and escalating it potentially.

12:15Ryan Holiday: But I'm just like, I'm not going to do that. I was like, I'm just going to, I'm going to, I'm going to weather whatever this storm is. I'm going to get the information that I need. and then afterwards I'm going to be like, hey, that person was rude and I was not rude in return. Yes. That's a big win. Yes. That's what I got. That was actually the gift that they gave me was that like I got a rep in not... Not being reactive. And not being a person I don't want to be. If I was like, fucking excuse me, like, you know, like, what is this? You know, like I wouldn't leave that later and then like, just, I'm so glad that that happened.

12:50Yeah, you lose. Yeah, I would feel crappy also. The thing that's been, I think, is so helpful in those moments in leadership and service or in just moving through life, as this story entails, is something that came from my former boss, Forever Mentor, Danny Meyer. Yeah. Charitable Assumption. Yes. Which effectively means give people the benefit of the doubt in that moment. Like what we would say in the restaurants is when someone comes in and they're acting like a jerk. Okay, obviously, we're not going to be a jerk back to them. there in our restaurant, but it is totally reasonable to say this person no longer deserves our greatest hospitality.

13:28The charitable assumption, however, would compel you to look at it in this way. Maybe they're acting like a jerk because on their way to the restaurant, they just heard that their wife was cheating on them or someone in their family died. And maybe the person acting like a jerk actually needs our love right now more than anyone else in the room. now sometimes they're just actually a jerk yes yes yes yes but obviously always rather err on the side of assuming the best and being wrong than the alternative and that's a helpful thing for me in those moments because maybe the doctor just something terrible happened in their lives and when you think about it like that it's less of a challenge to be like you know what i'm just

14:08Ryan Holiday: gonna be nice right now yeah or just i'm just not gonna be not nice right like i think obviously when it's in your sort of core element of competency, like it's in your restaurant, it's like, hey, can we give amazing service to a person who doesn't deserve amazing service? Yes. I don't necessarily know if you need to go through that in all areas of your life. It's just, to me, like what the Stokes are saying is like, just don't let an asshole make you an asshole. Like the win is just not being dragged down to the level. And so it's like, I'm going to stay, you're here for some reason. I'm not going to get there.

14:41Ryan Holiday: I'm somehow saying hi, it's a high position. But it's like, you're at a 10 and I walked in and a five is a totally normal situation. By not getting to a 10, that's a win. I'm just going to stay at my level. You're just going to continue being wherever you are in that moment. Yeah. I'm going to kind of, honestly, I'm just like, whoa, okay. I was like, you know, like, okay, so which model is this? And she's like, and I go, you know, like I just kept asking the questions I needed to get the information that I needed to do what I was doing. I don't need to dunk on this person. I don't need to call this person.

15:10Ryan Holiday: I don't need to win. And I don't and honestly, I don't really care what you're going through to go to the point that empathy doesn't have to cripple you. It's like clearly something is happening and I hope your family deals with it. But like I'm not going to be a person I don't want to be. Yes. Because you're not being the person you want to be. No, I mean, on the receiving end in customer service, obviously, this is my entire life. Yes. And so when I'm on the receiving end, it drives me nuts how we as an entire culture have seemingly fallen out of love with the words, I'm sorry. Yes. You know, like when someone makes it like, just please say I'm sorry.

15:48And if I'm not careful, I will let it really grate me. Or I, in some cases, will almost be encouraged to be like, excuse me, you realize you're doing this all wrong. Like, I actually wrote a book about it. and what you're saying is right like whatever you're at like it's just giving away your power

16:07Ryan Holiday: to and if that's how you go through life if you go through life as this kind of open wound it's gonna break you do you know what i mean like like also the funny thing is like i i i need you to make this right or what it's like do you know like are you gonna have a positive experience all the time everywhere you go like i i i feel like as i've gotten older and gotten more in control myself, I try to be better at just like, sometimes shit just sucks. You know what I mean? Like, that's not the standard I hold myself to, but I think I've gotten better at not expecting perfection or even hospitality for most of the encounters that I have, because that's like, it's not probably going to happen.

16:44Ryan Holiday: And also the expectation of it sets you up for disappointment and frustration. I mean, I think one of the greatest things about what I talk about and write about is from a business perspective, it's the greatest competitive advantage. Totally. It makes you stand out.

17:02In 620, Mark Surrealis uses a boxing metaphor. He says, in the ring, our opponents can gouge us with their nails or butt us with their heads or leave a bruise. He says, but we don't denounce them or get upset or regard them from then on as violent types. We just keep an eye on them, not out of hatred or suspicion. We just keep a friendly distance. He said, we need to do that in other areas. We need to excuse what our sparring partners do and just keep our distance without suspicion or hatred. These people are giving you information. They are showing you who they are. They are, in some cases, helping you by showing you some of your weaknesses or vulnerabilities.

17:36But most of all, they're just giving you a sense of their character. We shouldn't take it personally. We can't take our ball and go home. We have to understand this is life. You're in a boxing ring. You're going to get hit, right? There's going to be the occasional low blow. There's going to be a scratch. There's going to be stings of pain. That's how it works. We don't quit. we just adjust our strategy accordingly.

18:02And look, it's worth remembering with the famous passage in meditations about how the obstacle is the way, right? When he's saying the impediment to action advances action, what stands in the way becomes the way. When he's saying that there's an opportunity in this difficult situation, you know what kind of obstacles he's specifically referring to? He's referring to difficult people. He's referring to jerks. He's referring to people who have made mistakes. He's referring to people who are in the wrong. He says this person is giving you a chance to practice a virtue. This person is teaching you something about yourself.

18:29This person is giving you a chance to be the bigger person. And that's always a good thing to practice. So don't resent them. Don't hate them. Don't think that they're harming you. Realize they're helping you. They're giving you a chance to be who you are capable of being. It's not going to be easy. It's going to be hard. But that's the gift of this difficult person.

18:54you