Actor Alexander Ludwig on How Stoicism Helped Him Get Sober

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1:30Welcome to the weekend edition of The Daily Stoic. Each weekday, we bring you a meditation inspired by the ancient Stoics, something to help you live up to those four Stoic virtues of courage, justice, temperance, and wisdom. And then here on the weekend, we take a deeper dive into those same topics. We interview Stoic philosophers. We explore at length how these stoic ideas can be applied to our actual lives and the challenging issues of our time. Here on the weekend, when you have a little bit more space, when things have slowed down, be sure to take some time to think, to go for a walk, to sit with your journal, and most importantly, to prepare for what the week ahead may bring.

2:24Hey, it's Ryan Holiday. Welcome to another episode of the Daily Stoic Podcast. Regretfully, we will never have the real Cato on this podcast. We won't have Cato the Younger or his great-great-grandfather, Cato the Elder, the two towering Stoics of our time. But we can have today a guy who played a guy named Cato, a very talented and fascinating actor, recommended to me by a previous guest, Atticus, the poet, whose work I have been enjoying recently, whose work I've actually apparently enjoyed for a long time, but wasn't always aware of it. You may know him from the series Vikings. He currently stars in Heels, which my wife and I have been watching, a fascinating show about professional wrestling in the deep South, reminds me kind of of where we live.

3:15He's been in 23 movies and three television series. He was Cato in The Hunger Games. He was also in Lone Survivor and Bad Boys for Life. He just released his first album, Highway 99, and his name is Alexander Ludwig. We have a fascinating conversation in today's episode about mastery, about craft, about sobriety and recovery, being in command of oneself. And we talk a bit about Cato as well. I was really looking forward to this conversation. I'm glad we got to do it in person. And without further ado, I will bring you that conversation. Check out Vikings. Check out Heels. Check him out on Twitter and Instagram at Alexander Ludwig.

4:03and I believe he is a expectant or recent father by the time you are listening to this. So congratulations to him on that. I will send him a copy of the Daily Dad. He's a big fan of the books. And so we go deep into stoicism and a bunch of other stuff and I'll let you listen to that right now.

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6:12So I heard stoicism helped you quit drinking. Is that true? Yeah, stoicism has been... First off, not to pump your tires, you are my favorite author. Well, thank you. Hands down. I'll take it. Stoicism, to me, changed my life. And I'm not the kind of guy, and that's something I need to continue to work on, that can just sit on a couch and read for hours. Sure. So a lot of the books that I read, I read with my ears. Of course. Whatever works. But no, stoicism has had a huge impact in my life. do you remember how you found it um it there was always like nuggets in other books that i read like i loved like a lot of different self-improvement books or whatever you find nuggets of it and i love history yeah so every once in a while i'd hear these things like a quote from aristotle like freedom is obedience to self-formulated rules right or something like that and you're just like huh and then you hear other things and then um it was really your books that introduced me on a whole nother level to it.

7:16And of course, Duncan and myself and Duncan Penn, who I think you had on this podcast, yeah, is somebody who I talk about it with all the time as well. Really? Yeah. Interesting. All right. So walk me through how does stoicism help you get sober? So people think that rehab, people who haven't been, is like, I think they have this preconceived notion that there's like this pill they give you and suddenly it just all goes away you know and you go to rehab and you come out and things are just fine and what I realized it was for me when I was there is it's a deep dive into why we make the choices we make and why we're so self-destructive as human beings and And after you do, after you start understanding more about what is kind of triggering you on this journey, the answer to these kind of insecurities is discipline.

8:24And it is a structure. And people, it's funny, as I've read more as I get older and the more things I've taught myself, I've realized that a lot of the spiritual practices or a lot of books that I've read are almost saying the same thing in different ways. Sure. Like the theme that I found most important to me is that, for lack of a better word, discipline is destiny. Yeah. And that has been my way out of the turbulence in my life back in the day. Yeah. I think like if anyone's ever been to physical therapy or rehabbed from an injury, you get the sense that it's like, oh, I'm going to be worked on.

9:07Like I'm going to go and I'm going to get massages or this kind of treatment or this medicine. But really they're like, no, here's the work that you have to do. Right. And it's the same for, I think, the other forms of rehab. Like it's, they don't, you don't go there and then they're like, here are all the secrets to not drinking or doing this or that anymore. What they're like is, here are the things that you have to do every single day of your life. and the second you stop, like as they say, they say it works if you work it, right? Like if you do that work, then you'll stay sober. If you don't do that work, you won't.

9:43And it's really, really hard work. It's like the hardest work because it's on yourself and it's against habits or practices or assumptions you've had your whole life. Yeah, 100%. It's, I mean, and some people refer to that as the program. Yes. Really, it's just your program. It's whatever you need to do every day to center yourself and to feel grounded. And admittedly, there's days where I'm not as good. Yeah, sure. And there's days that I am. And I think one of the things I'm really trying to fine tune right now is how to do this when things that are out of my control are taking me out of my element.

10:24Like I'm not going to be on my farm in Bastrop, you know, I'm not going to be in my element. I'm going to be traveling overseas. And I think that's, that is an art in itself is how to, how to do those, those basic things that will center you for the rest of the day. Cause that's really all the program is once you've understood what is kind of fueling those self-destructive behaviors. Isn't there an acronym for like HALT? HALT. Yeah. Hungry, angry, lonely, tired. And then I add thirsty. Cause I don't know why they don't bring that in too. Sure. I'm like, I'm like, there's times. And basically all that saying is, here's something I realized.

11:02I think whenever you're sitting there and you're going like, man, like I just, I need a vacation. Yeah. Like I just need to be in Mexico right now. Or damn, like I wish my house was bigger. I just wish I was in a bigger house. I find it so funny because I'm like, do you actually want to be in Mexico right now? Or do you like the person you think you're going to be in Mexico right now? Yes. And it's the same with that house, right? Or do you like the person you've become to be in that? And I think it's kind of the same theme from your book. It's just like you get what you are. Yes. So just be the best version of yourself as possible.

11:46It's funny. In meditations, there's a passage where Marcus Aurelius is doing exactly that. He's like, I know you think you want to get away from it all, like in the country or the beach or whatever. and he's like, but actually whatever you need is inside of you right now. He's like, you can retreat and go on vacation inside your own soul right now. And I think it's true, right? We think, okay, if I can just get away from all these external things, then I won't feel what I'm feeling. And obviously sometimes that's what we do. And then sometimes we do like a substance or a thought pattern or whatever, the other version of escape.

12:21But what we really just have to deal with is whatever that feeling is. And if you can deal with that feeling and process it and work on it, that's actually a more sustainable and permanent solution to that thing. But I think, to me, one of the things that addiction is is like a sort of a proven pattern where whenever you get that feeling, you do that bad thing, that thing you're not supposed to do. And then the relief becomes associated with that feeling, even if it's also destroying your life at the same time. A hundred percent. Yeah. And it's your coping mechanism. You know, it is your higher power.

12:58It's what you go to. Yes. Right. It's like we, we fall on our habits and if that's your habit, you're going to fall on that. Right. But I, you know, I'm so grateful for stoicism in my life. And I think that so many young kids right now, especially people growing up in this world with social media and just being flooded by these self-promoting people and i'm not saying that there's any like everybody you know has their own life and i'm not about to judge them but it's just if i was a kid growing up and like my idols were the some of the things that i see now yeah it's um it's very scary because i think that it just kind of can we don't understand that it's not real exactly that it's a performance yes and in some cases it's literally not real because There's filters on top of it and there's editing on top of it.

13:52And you don't understand that that is not actual life. That is fake life. The highlight reel of people's life. Or, you know, for some of these like business gurus, this is their way of getting you to sign up for something, right? Yes, yes. You think Andrew Tate or whatever is a successful whatever, but actually his only success is selling you stuff. Exactly. Well, you know, speaking of your show Heels, it's like watching professional wrestling and not knowing that it's fake. Yes. That it's all scripted, that it's designed to make you feel good about some people, bad about some people, vicariously follow along, stimulate sort of very primal urges, which when it is presented as entertainment, there's absolutely no problem with it.

14:37Yeah. The problem is it's not. Like these are, you're following these parenting bloggers and going like, why am I shitty? Because my house isn't clean like theirs. And you don't understand that they picked this location that they're shooting from because you can't see what's on the other side of the couch, which is the same mess that's in your house. Or that the house is a rental or the car is a rental. Yeah, exactly. Or whatever. And I just feel like it's this kind of teaching for people that really is the way out. Because if I could sum up everything that I've read into a few words from you, it's, you're gonna be okay.

15:18It's going to be okay. Follow this. Because I think that everyone is being made to feel like they're not good enough right now. Sure. You know, in the world. And through this, you realize that you can do that for yourself. you know, through these small practices that this everyday routine, that you don't need validation externally, that this all comes internally and happiness isn't something to be gotten. It is the way, you know? You know what I like about that HAL acronym though, is that like, I think we think people that are like sober or in great shape or really successful, like we think that they're just sort of gutting it out with sheer superhuman strength all the time.

16:06right? That like they just always do the right thing, that they are never tempted, that it's never hard for them. And that's not only is that not true, but the real secret is just trying to avoid the scenarios or the environments where you are vulnerable to not being who you want to be. You know what I mean? So it's like, if you're like, hey, I make bad decisions when I'm upset, right? You just try not to make fewer decisions when you're upset. It's not like you just magically don't have a temper, right? Like everyone has a temper, but you try to be the person that goes, Hey, these are my processes.

16:45These are the systems I have. This is a little bit of self-discipline I have that says, Hey, when I'm pissed off, I write the email by don't send it. Right. Or like my Twitter account is on somebody else's phone. So I don't have the ability to angrily fire something off when I'm in the middle of a contract negotiating or whatever, right? Like you think about how do you set up processes so you don't make bad decisions when you're hungry, angry, lonely, tired. You know, I think I read this study once that was saying like most fights between couples happen when one or more of them is hungry. And you're like, oh yeah, right.

17:22I totally believe that. You're not actually fighting about like whose fault it was that you're late. You're fighting because you were trying to get to a restaurant and you're not at the restaurant and you're both hungry. And when you realize that, you're like, let's just table this discussion till after we eat. And not only are we not actually going to have to have the discussion later, but like, we're both going to apologize. We're both going to admit we're wrong. Yeah. Because we'll be different people then. Yeah. No, I completely agree with that. I also feel like it's, I feel like so many people, including myself, want to follow this, what's the right way?

18:04Sure. What's the right way to do it, right? And the right way is the way that works for you. Yes. And I feel like that's something that I struggled to figure out along the way as I was like, oh everyone has just what works for them you know some people can survive on on on less sleep and be totally fine yes i'm not one of those people i never have been and chances are though you're not one of those people if you think you're one of those people you're probably fooling yourself right but like yes i get what you're saying but that was but that's interesting to me because i i saw that i actually read that book why we sleep that author right and i and i and that's like the the percentage of people who can actually do that is staggeringly low.

18:47You're the exception that proves the rule. Yeah. Yeah. Well, how much sleep do you get a night? I need like at least eight. I can function on seven. And if it's less than seven, I'm like trash. And are you edgy? Yes. Like you're moody? Yes. Okay. See, so me too. Yeah. Yeah. I need to sleep. I need it. Obviously, when you have kids or you're working, I was just like, I just did this talk and I had to like get up at four in the morning to catch a flight. There's definitely like, I can do it. Yeah, of course. I just, I think what you realize is you're like, what are the conditions that more often than not, I do my best?

19:22Yes. Right? Like the other day we took our kids to this like water park. And so we spent the night and then we drove back and I came here to the office. We got back at like two in the afternoon and there was something I had to write. And so I get in the office. Normally my routine is I get up early, I go on this walk. I write in the morning and I'm done. but for whatever reason this day it was flipped like I got in the office at 2 and as I sat down to record or to write it was just garbage like I wasn't feeling it and it was I'm actually really glad it happened because I was like oh yeah this is why I have my routine because who I am at 2pm is a fundamentally different person than who I am at 7am as a writer I can do a phone call at 8 a.m.

20:11and be just as good on the phone at 2 p.m. or whatever, right? I can run at those times. But as far as who I need to be to do my main thing, which is writing, that's the time I have to do it at. And understanding that and then building around that is really important. So it's like, if I'm trying to write it too and it's not happening, I don't beat myself up and go like, why am I not good? Maybe I'm an imposter. I don't think that. I just understand that I am not setting myself up for success in that environment. And ideally, you want to build your life and make your decisions when it's in your control around the times and places and tools that make you the person that you want to be.

20:56And that's a huge part of it. So I think sometimes people think it's about discipline in the moment, which it is, but it's also about the discipline way before that. A good example, actually, with sleep is like people go like, I'm not a morning person or I have trouble getting out of bed in the morning. And that's actually not a matter of discipline. The discipline is you should have gone to bed earlier, right? That was my question for you. When do you go to bed? Yeah. If it's at 10, 1030, then I'm like on top of it. And if it's lingering and lagging, that's like that lapse of discipline doesn't feel like a big lapse of discipline.

21:30but the next day or the day after, that's the lagging indicator of whether I made that right decision. And I think this is true for lots of things. It's like someone's sobriety is not just simply like in this moment, do you drink or not drink? Do you accept the pass or not the pass? But it's, did you decide to go to a meeting six days ago or five days ago or four days ago or three days ago, right? Like when you, it's when you start blowing off the little things, the lagging or the, the, the, when you, it's when you start blowing off the little things leading up to it, that you're setting yourself up, you're setting yourself up for an inevitable failure or lapse of discipline when it really counts.

22:17Yeah. And I think, I mean, literally that is the theme of discipline is destiny, right? The little things are the big things in life, in your career, in your relationship, in everything. And that's something that took me so long to realize in my life. You know, and when it comes to drinking, it's like if you're not on top of your sobriety, your addict is doing push-ups in the parking lot, right? Like it's getting ready for you for that moment where it jumps you. You know, and I think I always have to be careful with myself about when I am feeling good, when I do feel like I have it under control.

22:56Sure. because it's always going to be there. I'm always going to be an addict. It's just where I, you know, where, where I used to put my time and energy into things that were self-destructive. I now put them into things that are creative, um, and, and, you know, going to help me move my life and my family's life forward. Um, and that can be a huge asset too. So what once was kind of destroying my life has now changed my life for the better in ways i could never have imagined you know five years ago yeah i was in rehab in arizona i had no idea what my life was gonna yeah gonna hold and and it's actually insane when they talk about the promises and in a about you know all these things that will happen if you just love yourself if you just follow this program if you just do the hard work and even me it's like oh i hope so i mean i guess I mean, everything else isn't working.

23:54So I guess I'll try this. It's insane. I look back and I just go, how was that five years? Yeah. Like the things that have changed in my life, it's just magical. There's a great quote. All growth is a leap in the dark, right? And so like all change, all process, right? Involves a certain amount of trust. Like someone says, hey, you want to be a writer, do these things, right? Someone says, hey, you want to be sober, do these things. Hey, you want to have a good marriage, do these things. And you can be like, yeah, yeah, sure, right? Or you can be like, okay, I will actually do those things. And when you do those things, when you trust that process, it usually works out.

24:30More often than not, it works out. No one can tell you how quickly it will work out or how easy it will be. But the process is the sort of tried and true process for a reason. And it requires the person to have both the courage and the discipline to sort of go, okay, I trust you. I trust this. and also I'm going to listen to this. I'm going to stick with this. And if you can do that, then yeah, magical things are on the other side of it. But the problem is we have doubts or we go, I'll do it 20 % of the way or I'll do it sometimes. And then we don't get the thing and then we go, see, it didn't work.

25:12Exactly. Because we forgot the final step and it was the hardest step for me. And it's actually one that, that, that I apply to my work all the time, which is surrender and letting go and allowing those things to come to you. You know, I always tell people and they're like, I want to be an actor and I want to do this. It was like, like the only reason I am where I am in my career or that I have one is because I always made a promise to my young self. I said, if I'm 80 year old, 80 years old or jobless, at least I will have made my 12 year old self proud. sure you know because this is what i knew i just had this knowing i had to do i can't promise you that it will happen when you want it to or how you want it to but if you love it yeah you know with everything that you are and you do it over and over and over again it will happen for you i believe that yeah you know if you if you if you study if you train if you love it And the irony in it is that the love and the joy is in the process of doing it.

26:18Yes. That's the most important thing is once you actually fall in love with what you're doing, the outcomes just happen.

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28:35that's the paradoxical almost insane thing that you have to add you have to get people to accept which is that you will actually have better results when you stop thinking about results or even wanting results i know that's the most that's the most fucked up shit about it excuse my language but like it's like whatever you want it is so that is the most fucked up part about it is the second and it's true with like it's actually it's true with how i met my wife. When I met her and I was finally like, you know what? Like I'm good. Like I'm just going to just, I'm good. I'm good on my own. I don't need this.

29:11You know, every job I've gone into that and said that like, look, I'm grateful for the opportunity. I don't need it. You know, I'm going to go give my performance. I'm not here to get a job. Whatever happens, happens. Those are the ones that end up happening. And the ones that I was like, oh, I got this. This is mine. I have to get this. I have to get, never. And I just think that's so funny. It's kind of like golf. Like the harder you are trying to hit the ball in a very specific place and show people how good you are at doing it, that's when you shank it. Yeah. That's when you clip the top of it or embarrass yourself.

29:42Do you know what I mean? And it is weird. It almost sounds like a lie that successful people are making up to deceive people who are behind them on the path. But it's true. Like my books have sold better and I've had more success. That is directly correlated with how little I have thought about those things or cared about those things or aimed for those things. Like I think almost entirely about what do I want to say? What am I trying to do? What is this project? Like, did I win or succeed when I turned it in, right? And then everything else is extra. Once I got to that place, all of a sudden, all the things that I really wanted before that I was aiming for very specifically, but was not getting, they just started happening.

30:39So here's a question for you. Once that started happening, right? All the things that you wanted before. Sure. and you start getting those things yeah do you find yourself having to retrain yourself to not hoard those things that you get you know because i also feel like you didn't want those things sure right or you did want them then you didn't want them then they came yeah and now you get to enjoy them sure i think the trap is trying to build you know what I mean? Trying to keep them. Yeah, totally. It's like, okay, like as an author, you want to hit number one on a bestseller. You want to sell lots of copies.

31:20So the more you think about that, the less energy you're actually focused on, like making something good, making something true. Right? So as soon as you stop thinking about that, you actually have more energy, more effort, more purity in the thing. And then let's say that actually gets you the thing. You hit number one and selling out crazy. What can happen is now you're like, that's normal. That's what I deserve. That's who I am. And now you're thinking about keeping it and you've already left the pure, present, inner focused state that unlocked the thing in the first place. So I try to think of it as like ephemeral and not mine.

32:02And like my job is just to do what I do. That's the gift. That's success. And then the other stuff, you get it or you don't. And the Stoics have this great where they call them preferred indifference. So it's like, it's better to be working than not working, to sell lots of copies than no copies, to be rich than poor, right? It's better to have those things than not have those things. But you're at a place where you're good either way. Yes. Right? And if you can get there, then I think that's the place where you do like the good work. 100%. But it must be weird as an actor because like I have a lot more control over my destiny than you do.

32:44That's bullshit. Right? Like you, someone picks you, they allow you to do the thing or not, then they tell you to a certain degree how to do the thing. Yeah. Then someone edits the thing, then someone markets the thing. How have you come to practice surrender and acceptance? like how have you narrowed your focus on what you do as an actor like so why i always wanted to be an actor was because i love telling stories and i wanted to inspire people like i loved that's what i loved it was never about um everything else that came with it right some people might want to be famous they want to be rich they might just want to get the hell out of where they're from i'd be lying if i didn't say that finances played a part in it like if i couldn't make money doing this i don't know if i would that's just me being completely blunt like i love it but i never saw myself on stage doing it for five cents you know or like a dollar like i i need to provide for my family but but that wasn't but the impetus for doing this was truly because i genuinely loved it um but it would also be wrong of me to deny the fact that when things go well it means that more there's more opportunities sure to do what i love right um being in austin is so amazing for me because um you know i i do have a great group of friends in los angeles and i think it's a great you know there's a lot of great stuff to it yeah um i just didn't want to be reminded every single day about my business and all this stuff like for me i love getting to retreat and going to work on you know for me for me writing is a big big part of my life as well and and me and my partners that we we develop television shows and we and we write scripts so we attach different you know you put together a package and you'll and you'll pitch it to big studios or whatever that's how i take my control back you know is is kate as opposed to waiting for you know my version of one thing i realized like you can't you can't um you can allow somebody else to inspire you yeah you cannot try to recreate their career sure so like for example like um will uh smith and i are doing bad boys together right like i grew up and he's a hot topic we're going to know but like i grew up absolutely loving will and just from my experience with will he is just an incredible human being an incredible business guy um we're all human beings and we all we all make mistakes um but um i can allow his career to inspire me as a human being and as an actor but i can't go where's my version of this movie yeah you know sure because that's not how what makes him special in his, right, was that he was where he was at the time that he was.

35:28You can't recreate something that's already happened. Exactly. Yeah. So for me, knowing that, it's like, okay, well, what are the stories that I actually want to tell? And I'm going to create those opportunities for myself. I do get what you're saying, though. It's picking where one lives. Again, the Stokes should say, you should be able to be above jealousy and comparison and FOMO and all these things wherever you live. For sure. Great. Like somebody should be able to be sober in the middle of a nightclub or a bar. But also the nightclub and the bar is literally designed to prompt you to want to drink, right?

36:00And people around you are offering a drink. So it's not a great place for a person who wants to be sober. I have found that choosing where one lives and how one designs one's day is really powerful in terms of helping you be the person that you know you want to be. Yes. And living around people that you're not competing with and actually don't really care about what you do at all, I find helps me be more pure and independent in what I do because there's not this sort of warping influence of like, how did they get that? Or should I be doing that? Or why are they doing more than me? It's like, I'm here doing my own thing.

36:43Yeah. And I, because it's out of sight, it's out of mind and it helps me be better. And you know, it's funny, Hollywood, I feel like creates the illusion of competition. Sure. Like social media. Yes. Whereas in reality, it's, it's not as competitive as people make it out to be. There are, there are roles that I am so right for, and there will be a very few other guys, my age, my type that are, that are right for that. Like in that sense, I guess you could say we're competing against each other, but in reality, like it's, it's not that. And I think that there's this feeling of totally perpetuated by insecurities of just, I have to one up, I have to act better.

37:23I have to be better. And it's just, I don't, that's not the father I want to be. That's not the husband I want to be. That's not the man I want to be. And, um, that's part of why I think, I do think leaving home, even as a child can be a huge life hack. I think just like broadening your horizons and being somewhere new. And Lauren and I'm a wife, we've, we'd never been to Austin, you know, and I'd heard such amazing things. And once we got here, it was just like, Oh man, like, I feel like this is how like life was back in the seventies, you know, you know, or like back before everything, it's just, you go to certain places, like even this town, I'm just like, are you kidding me?

37:57Like right over to a fucking bookstore? Like, this is incredible. Like, I love this. Also, like, there's something to be said too about like, I think there's this, when you're like, when you want to do a certain professional like okay everyone is in new york or la or whatever yeah and because everyone's there there is competition in the sense that like there's only so many apartments and so everything's more expensive right and i think being able to live in a place although austin is becoming very expensive but i think all so you can do it anywhere but uh living below your means or living outside of the bubble or the scene where you're not also competing in terms of status with other people, it allows you to make better artistic or creative or business decisions because you're being much more rational about them.

38:42You're not like, hey, everyone, like in my industry, you have to drive this kind of car or you're a loser. And then it's like, well, you have to work however many days a year just to pay for that thing. And then so you're not thinking, like when I decided, when I went to my publisher, I was like, I want to write a book about an obscure school of ancient philosophy. They were like, what? That sounds like a terrible idea. And they offered me less money for it. Right. And if I was living a different lifestyle than I was, the decision to say, I don't really care. I'll take whatever the offer is wouldn't have been possible.

39:15No. You know what I mean? A hundred percent. I mean, this is, that is the key I think to, I think just to, to living a nice life. Um, but also to, especially for, for people who like artists, actors, authors, you know, people where it's nothing is guaranteed. You're almost living a little bit of an entrepreneurial lifestyle as well, where it's just, you, you can make money very fast and very quickly, but you can also go years, you know, without you don't. Yes. Um, and especially if you want to be choosy about your craft. Well, that's, so this is what I said to my manager always, as I said, the greatest power I have as an actor is to be able to sit back and and choose and i've always had this mindset and it served me well so far um which is i would rather be a part um of a great film and not be the lead yeah than be the lead of a piece of shit film and and get paid yeah way more and i feel like i've consistently throughout my life have been able to turn down money jobs um for the ones that ironically pay you nothing, but to work with great people.

40:25And it is slowly but surely continued to produce opportunities and things that I've, I had never experienced. And only in hindsight, I can see that, you know, I, I didn't see it at the time. It was very frustrating to me being like, God, I really want to take this job, but I can't. But that takes a lot of discipline, right? They're like, we want you for this. We will pay you a lot for this. And the alternative is not working, right? Like if you're a person who wants to work, want to be, you know, want to be wanted. And then obviously you want money to say like, no, to say that's almost right, but not right.

41:03That's like the hardest thing to do in the world. Like for me, when I get offered like talks and stuff, and it's like, well, I wasn't doing anything on Tuesday the 17th, you know? but the discipline to say, I'm going to leave that space open for something potentially better, which might be nothing. I struggle with that all the time. A hundred percent. I think all of us do. It's really, really difficult. But also it's not that difficult if you live as responsibly as you possibly can, right? Yes, yes, yes. Because like for me, it was just like, man like it would be nice but i don't need it and and to me those offers i don't even consider them offers because to me it's like the first thing i always say is okay don't tell me what i'm gonna don't tell me what the offer is if money wasn't an object would i do this interesting would i do this yeah um right because it's not hard if you didn't know about it like if you'd never heard like if you were just like i wasn't doing anything on the 17th you'd be like i'm not doing anything on the 17th.

42:07The hard part is someone told you, do you want to do nothing on the 17th? Or do you want to do this thing that's worth this amount of money? Now it's hard because it feels like you're choosing the irresponsible choice versus the responsible choice when actually the responsible choice may well be to say no. Luckily, I think now too, actors get away with a lot more shit than they used to because i think there's so much content out sure and into a way that's actually really nice because you can take risks on things that perhaps there's no way you would have touched back in the day sure um because back in the day when it was like theatrical releases if it didn't do well you know you maybe had one or two more shots but that was it yeah whereas now it's like if it's bad nobody sees it if it's good maybe people see it and it might take a long time for them to see i mean vikings is a great example of that i mean we started that show I mean the first episode basically we had the 10th year anniversary like last week like you know 10 years ago and people are like have you heard of this new show yeah and I literally the security guy at the airport yesterday pulled me over he's like dude I'm just finishing season 4 I'm like where the fuck were you like we needed you like 6 years ago man I needed you when I could have renegotiated right right right sure but he was so nice and obviously that's great too but it's just crazy because there's so much out there.

43:33It just takes a very, very long time. Well, it's like, do you have a scarcity mindset about what you do or a abundance mindset? Like I have a quote in The Obstacles Away from Richard Branson, where he's like, opportunities are like buses. There's always one coming around. That is so hard. That feels almost egotistical and delusional to accept. It's like, because I think a lot of people get into acting or writing or any of the creative professions or anything because they want to be wanted. they want to feel good they want to be validated and so it like to to to go no actually like lots of people like you're going to have more offers than you know what to do with right that feels preposterously egotistical to believe so when you're like i'm going to pass on this sure thing right now because i'm actually confident there there's going to be better stuff in the future that feels that feels irresponsible it does but it it's probably truer than the alternative especially as you said like that we do actually live in a world where there's a lot more content a lot more opportunities a lot uh lower a bigger margin for error than there was in the past where it's like yeah if you don't take this if you don't take this shot you'll never get another one by saying no, you're saying yes to abundance.

44:53Yes. You know, and it's, it's a very, yeah, it's, it's a lot easier said than done. Um, but it does feel good sometimes. To say no? Yes. Well, it's very empowering. Very. I actually don't need this. Yes. You know, no, you, you can't own me for this. You know, it's like, huh, that feels great. Wait, do you know who Molly Bloom is? Tell him on the corner of the street, like dancing for change. thank you for the job you know Molly Bloom like Molly's Game the Aaron oh yes she was telling me so like the premise of that movie is basically did you have her on this podcast she was just here like three four days ago I would have loved to come for that she was she was saying like the premise of the movie and in real life is basically like the government was like if you turn on all these people we'll give you the five million dollars of your ill-gotten gains back right and she was like no I'm not going to do it and we were talking about how like obviously that's an extremely difficult thing to do but like how one way to think about that is how rich you are afterwards even though you have no money to be the kind of person that could say no to$5 million you have to be very rich, right?

46:00And there's different ways to be rich, right? Like to be very powerful, very in control of yourself very in control of your wants and needs to be able to be like my ethics or my principles are more important to me than literally millions of dollars, right? And so that's the stand she ends up taking, which I'm sure wasn't easy. But she leaves that not feeling like I just lost$5 million, but that actually I am more powerful than$5 million. Fueles you, yes. And Matthew McConaughey told me the same thing when he would pass on these rom-com roles that were going from, it was$5,$10,$15 million. $17 ,000.

46:37Yeah, insane amounts of money that at first that was terrifying. But then the other side of that is like, no, no, no. I decide what I do and I, you can't really buy me. And to get to that place is a pretty magical place. It's a very privileged place, but it's a magical place. Exactly. And that's, that's the other thing is like, um, it's a privileged place to be, but it took, it took years of also doing that to get to that privileged place. yeah that makes sense like i feel like you know when people um you know start speaking you know whatever it's at a function or something or or on television they're talking about you know how they live through gratitude and blah blah blah right and it's just like well that's easy for you to say yeah and i'm like yeah but to be fair those those same people have been doing that for a long time for a long time yes it's just that you're only seeing them now um so yeah if it's a new attitude then it's fake.

47:40But if it's, that's what got you. Yes, exactly. Although also though, it's like one of the ways you get to a place where you can say no is by saying yes to a lot of things for a long time. For sure. That's the other side that people miss. It's like, now I can be like, I don't want to do that. Like, or I only want to do it on these terms in this way. That's because I said yes to so much for so long. And I made commitments and sacrifices to get to the point where you are more in control of your own destiny than you were at an early point in your career. Right? Like, I'll work for free. I won't complain.

48:18I won't be entitled. You do that for a long time. Then you get to a place where you're like, now I'm good. Now I have leverage. I'm going to use that leverage. So otherwise, what's the point of the leverage? Yeah. And in the same way, your yeses were strategic early on. Your noes are still strategic now. So yeah. I mean, that's kind of how I operate as well now is it's just, and I love working. Like it's my favorite thing in the world to do. That's why it's hard. But that makes it hard to say no because you like the alternative of not working feels bad. Yeah. And I feel incredibly guilty because I know how privileged I am to even be offered anything because I remember what it was like when I was offered nothing.

49:02Yes. You know? And I just wished. Yeah. I'm like, God, how can this guy, you know, how do you get any actor? complain, give them a job, right? How is this guy even complaining about this job? Like, I'd die for this job. Yeah, yeah.

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52:06So speaking of Stoicism, it's a little on the nose, but you know you played a character with a Stoic name. So funny, and I learned that from your book. Oh. Do you think that she got it? Well, she used a bunch of famous sort of Greek and Roman names for all the characters. and... But Cato was a good one. It's probably an illusion. I mean, what's actually funny is like, so the founding of America, the founders would all write these like letters. That was like how they would communicate. They would write these letters that would be published in newspapers. Yeah. And they would all pick names, like their fake names because they wouldn't write it as like Thomas Jefferson or James Madison or Alexander Hamilton.

52:44They would all pick fake names. And they would pick like Cato or Epictetus or Marcus or They would pick, that was just the name. So she was probably also doing that a little bit. It was just like sort of a fake name thing. But yeah, I just, I wondered if you picked up on that. I did. Yeah. I did. When I started learning about it, I was like, that's really interesting. And then somebody told me that Ludwig means, my last name means famous warrior. Oh. In German. I was like, well, I have played a lot of famous warriors. Interesting. That's interesting. Yeah. Cato's one of the more interesting Stoics because he doesn't really write anything.

53:19Like there's no. How do we know anything about him? You can't go get his essays on philosophy. But he, to the other Stoics, was the number one Stoic. And it's because of who he was. It was how he lived. He lived the Stoic principles. His peer is Cicero. And Cicero writes all the great essays on Stoicism. He's how we know about a lot of the ancient Stoics. but he actually like when when the rubber met the road sort of tended to struggle and when things got hard cato was like even beyond what the philosophy you would expect the philosophy to to be able to bring out of a person that's pretty that's pretty um because like anything like these even even philosophy has to be tried and tested right yeah to an extent like like does this work right i would imagine that beginning but for a human being to have that kind of faith in something.

54:17Yeah. I mean, so Cato is famous ultimately for his suicide. Do you know this story? No. So, okay. So Cato - If it's in your books, I've heard the story. Cato and the big clash in the ancient world, I think we even have, it's in the wall somewhere. I can't see it. This is a great book that I just read about Cato and Cicero. But basically it's the clash in the ancient world. Like Caesar is like the ambitious, talented, like plays to the crowd, but doesn't really have a conscience, just is out for himself. And Cato is this sort of like principled, sort of old school, like basically one wants to be emperor, one wants to preserve the republic.

54:57And there's this clash and they end up fighting and there's a lot. But in the end, basically, Caesar wins. And Cato is faced with the choice of basically submitting to Caesar. And Caesar would have forgiven him or probably blessed him, but he would have demanded a certain subservience from him. And Cato refuses. So he has this big dinner party. and they talk about philosophy. It goes on for hours and hours. And then he says goodbye to everyone. He puts them on ships and says, you got to get out of here before Caesar gets you. And then he goes to bed. He wakes up in the middle of the night. He reads this book about Socrates.

55:48And then he grabs his sword and he disembowels himself like up the middle. and when he falls like you know he collapses to the ground people rush in and they they're like they try they stop him they stop him from totally doing it and they stitch him back up and he wakes up in the middle of this is like this could be in one and this could be in vikings basically um he wakes up in the middle sees that they're trying to save him but refuses to you know basically exist in a world that is so the opposite of how he wants it to be. And he rips it open with his hands and that's how he goes out. Come on.

56:28That's how he goes out. And so that was, so Cato's defiance of Caesar is this sort of monument for all time, ultimately of like the mission of the So Caesar wins and Cato dies, but that sort of example stands for thousands of years. And this is ultimately what the founders draw on as they're creating America. It's like they're picking up the torch or the baton or the defiance of Cato in those last moments. So who was the original Stoic? The original Stoic is this guy named Zeno. Zeno, yes. So Zeno loses everything in a shipwreck. He washes up in Athens and ends up founding this school of philosophy.

57:19And then this is actually funny. So this is in Athens in Greece. And so it's the invention of philosophy. It eventually makes its way to Rome several generations later. And Cato the Elder, which is Cato the Younger, who's probably who your character is named after, that's Cato's great-great-grandfather. He's there when the philosophers are doing their talks. And he was even more old school than Cato. And he watched one of the philosophers argue one thing one day, and then the next day argue the opposite of that thing, like sort of a philosophical trick. And he's so appalled by this that he orders that they be exiled from Rome and philosophy be banned.

58:04Come on. Having no idea that his great-great-grandson would later become one of the great philosophers of all time. It's pretty nuts. How many books do you think you've read on Stoicism? A lot. A lot. I actually tend to read less on Stoicism these days. And I just try to read about interesting people. People I like, people I dislike. Times I like, times I dislike. And I try to look for the ideas of the philosophy in stories that I admire or am appalled by. Yeah. I mean, I saw that so much in Discipline is Destiny. Yeah. I mean, I loved all those choices that you had. It's one of those books that you could read over and over again.

58:50That's what I love about your books. I feel like you can read them over and over again. In fact, I would argue you should read them over and over again because there's different, all these different stories. every time I read it, I'm reading a different book. Well, the Stoics talk about that too, actually. Seneca says we have to linger on the works of the master thinkers, like we have to go over them over and over again. But there's this poet, Heraclitus, who the Stoics like, and he would say the reason we reread things is that, he says, we never step in the same river twice. The river is different, but also the man is different.

59:26Wow. Right? And so the words are exactly the same. when I pick up Marcus Aurelius in 2006, right? In my college apartment. And when I'm, you know, three years ago, in March 2020, I pick up Marcus Aurelius as the world is sort of melting down. And it strikes me, oh, wait, Marcus Aurelius was writing during a plague. When he talks about plagues and what they do to people and how it can destroy your character, he wasn't like being metaphorical. He was talking about what we were about to go through, right? And you realize, oh, I would have had no ability to understand the material on this level if the events of the world weren't forcing that top of mind, right?

1:00:23It's like what you read when you read the Stoics as a single person and then you read the Stoics when you have kids, you go, oh, this is a person who buried multiple children before they reached adulthood. And you go, oh, like he's grieving when he writes this passage. And he's coming at it from a person who's been, you know, had their heart broken, but is trying not to be a broken person, right? And you go, oh, you just never, it would have been impossible for you to comprehend what was happening. the levels of the levels of the levels below in the text until you had some frame of reference in your own experience.

1:01:04And so it is really important that you go back and you watch a movie that hit you when you were 15 years old. You watch it again when you're older because you realize all these things were happening that you didn't know. There was references to films that you hadn't seen. And there's quotes from people that you never heard of. And the same goes for books. And I think one of the things I like to do is go back and reread books because I notice, why did I highlight that passage? Like, what was, why did I care about that then? Now I care about it even more. Now it doesn't matter to me at all. Like, you just, you get things, you get different things out of the stuff when you come back to it.

1:01:40Tony Hopkins was telling me that he only reads books now. He hasn't even watched anything. Anthony Hopkins? He's a big fan of the Stoics, actually. Yeah. I wish I had known about it when we worked together because we worked together probably six years now, but he was such a great, I'm going to talk about another guy who like lives by recovery. Yes, and is a very, from the people that I've known and the conversations I've had with him, is a very sort of quiet but prolific ally and supporter of people who are where he was at earlier times in his journey. He's a very much embodiment of that idea of being of service.

1:02:23being of service you know and that's you can do it you can be i think the problem with me is everything i always want to do a hundred and thousand percent right it's like it's like everything i want to be all in you know if i'm gonna serve i'm gonna i'm gonna serve every single person in the world it's like it's ludicrous right but it's like you gotta put your mask on first. Yeah. Right. And, and I, and I've realized like, no, you, you can serve by just being kind to somebody on the street. You know, it's like it, there's, you have no idea how that's going to affect somebody or their family when they, when they get home.

1:03:00But Tony - You can also serve just by having your shit together, being a good example. Yes. A hundred percent. Well, that's funny because in recovery, that's what they talk about, right? It's like, it's like, I, all I can do is be an example for people that are there. Yeah. Um, but I can't, I can't tell them that they need to do anything. Yeah. You know, that's up to them, but it, but I can be an example. Um, but Tony is, he's the living and breathing embodiment of that. And, and even while we were shooting, uh, it was a small independent film, um, uh, that I did with him in Raleigh Hoda back in the day in Canada.

1:03:36And he was like, um, he'd finish working and he'd go to an AA meeting and he would be sponsoring people there. and it was just like, it was surreal. He's an incredible human being. Well, talking about being okay, there's some clip, I think it's maybe on Jimmy Kimmel or something and he talks about how he pulls up like a photo of himself when he's like a little kid sometimes and he just goes, see, we did okay, man. I love that. And it's a nice way of redefining, like, because you can be so unhappy in the present moment. You can be hard on yourself. You can wonder why you didn't do more, why you did X, Y, or Z, the things you didn't fulfill.

1:04:11but like compared, as you said, compared to the 12 year old version of yourself, you're fucking crushing it. It's ridiculous. You did so, like I wanted to write one book. That was like, to me, like, you know what I mean? It's like, if I could do this one time, wouldn't that be incredible? Like how lucky would that be? And then you do it and you don't feel that way. You tell yourself, well, what if I do it 20 more times? And so if you can go back and remember what your definition of enough was or success or like profound, like a profound, you know, gift would be, um, you can realize like how far you already are past that.

1:04:51Yeah. And I, you know, if I could go back to my younger self, like, especially in my teenage years and I, you know, I just, I feel like I always thought, um, that I would mistake like, uh, uh gratitude for complacency yes right and i'm like they're too they're so so different i'm like you can stop beating yourself up um and and still be an ambitious person you know you actually do better work because you're not you're not wasting time on the parts that don't matter you're only focused on what you control exactly and i and i i wish so badly i could have been like just let it go just allow this to happen you're doing great like just it's all going to be good just focus on what you can control and let the rest go and i feel like more people in this world need to hear that especially that's why i love your work so much and i feel like it's so timeless but you've done you know russell brand released a i don't know if you've ever met have you ever met russell before i actually i haven't either but the people who i talked to said that He's a great dude.

1:05:56But he, um, he, he released like an AA book. Yeah. Yeah. He has like a recovery. Right. And I, and I read it and it was excellent. You know, it was humorous. It was great. And it was like for the, for somebody who, the funniest thing, people are like, well, like, how do I know if I'm an alcoholic? Like, it's like, well, look, if you're asking that question, you know, it's probably regular people are not asking themselves. Yeah, exactly. It's like, that's the thing. Um, but it seems like, no, no, alcoholics are just this and that's not me. There's no way you read Russell Brand's recovery book it's a great way for somebody who's like just trying to understand it without like getting caught up on the god thing and all of that stuff but i feel like that's what you've done with stoicism you've made it you've made like i don't believe that i could have read just from me could have read some of the books you have read and digested it the way you have but i can read your books and it speaks to me tenfold you know i feel like i understand it and because you simply you simplify it, you make it relatable.

1:06:53And I recommend your books to absolutely everybody. Anybody who's going through a hard time, like even, even people like in recovery, I'm like, read, read about the Stoics, read these books, because it's truly that you can draw so many parallels between, between the two. Um, you know, there's a, um, there's a very weird moment. I think it's in Silence of the Lambs where Hannibal Lecter quotes this. He's like, you know, as Marcus Aurelius said, and you totally skip over it the first time. Yeah. There's like, there's a very weird, like Anthony Hopkins, Marcus Aurelius connection, where as like the worst villain in the history of film, it's pretty cool.

1:07:33I'm looking up. Yeah. Yeah. No, he's, he's, he's the best. So there's this, there's saying no, that's obviously a big part of it, but how do you deal with rejection? Oh man. Cause that's the, that's gotta be the worst part of your profession. It's not just that, uh, you don't necessarily control all parts of it, but that other people get to tell you, you can't do the thing that you wanted to do. Um, no, I, so I don't want to just out of respect for the person, uh, but I just worked with this, um, incredibly talented, one of my favorite A-list actors. And we were just hanging out in our trailer together and I was talking to him about exactly that.

1:08:17And, you know, I was just like, man, I'm very jealous of you because I feel like you, you hit it. Because like the 90s, like when I grew up, like to me, some of those are the best films ever. Sure. And it's what... Everyone thinks that about their generation of films. That's true. But I mean, to be fair, my favorite film is like Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid. But in terms of like the 90s, I felt like in so many ways that was like the peak. It's indie films. Yeah. It was like there was a lot of great stuff coming out. Mid-budget, like awesome, cool movies. Maybe not the best film ever was in the 90s, but I would say that there was a lot of good films that inspired me to want to become an actor.

1:08:58Things you can't make now. Exactly. And that's what I said. I was like, I am so jealous of you because, you know, all the things that inspired me to want to become an actor. And now I'm like, well, who are they? I'm here now and I'm ready. Like I'm ready to do it. And then like, I'm actually in a place in my career where I could do it. And, and then we were talking about rejection and, you know, and he said to me, I still fight for roles. Sure. Everyone does. And I was like, what are you talking about? Yeah. Alexander, I still fight for roles. And I was like, don't tell me that. Don't tell me that right now.

1:09:34You're telling me this never ends. Because of course it like, I've seen it in myself that, you know, before I was just this kid and there was thousands of people going out for a role then there were hundreds yeah then there was five yeah you know and and then those five kind of went away and a new five came and i always managed to just be there but like but it never goes to zero never goes to zero because they're all like no what if you can't do it they're obviously thinking about other potential they have to think about 100 and and somewhere out there there's one super talented a-list actor losing a job to another one.

1:10:08And then, and, and, and it, you, it's never going, it's not like you reached this destination and suddenly I'm there. I get to do whatever I want, whenever I want. And everyone only offers what I want to me. It's just, that's never going to happen. And of course it's not. So for me, it's that knowing that is actually really encouraging because when it comes to rejection, Bryan Cranston said this in his book, and I think you can apply this to pretty much anything in life, but when it comes to acting, I'm there to give a performance, not to get a job. Sure. You know, and so often we imagine what, it's not just the job when you lose it, you lose the job and the fantasy that came with that job.

1:10:58Oh my God, once I get this job, yeah i'm gonna finally be happy and that'll be a-lister then i'll have to care about money money ever again and blah blah and first off there's not an a-lister i've met yet that's that doesn't worry about you know money and feel like they're finally good um which is amazing but it's just what happens yeah um and that's just not a thing so for me i lean into it you know For me now, it's like in the same way that I said all the jobs I've gotten were the ones where I'm like, I don't need this. Would it be great? Absolutely, but I don't need this. It would be great to do these things, but if not, there's be another one that comes along.

1:11:43It's a hard thing to do, especially when it's a role you feel like you can absolutely do justice by. but weirdly enough I've yet to in my entire career I have yet to lose a role that I've gone damn like I really really wish I got that which is by the way how the mind works right like you people go I don't want to regret this for the rest of my life and it's like that never happens never your mind always finds a way that what you did is the best thing to do yeah so why can't you give yourself like you go through some devastating breakup 20 years later you're like I'm so glad that happened. You know that inevitably that's where you're going to end up.

1:12:23But then you're like, but I would like to torture myself for at least the first four or five years before I get there. And it's like, no, you could just give yourself, you know how you're going to feel about this in a long enough time from now. So why don't you give yourself that gift now? Now, exactly. It's hard, especially when you're like a really ambitious person. Sure. because I feel like sometimes there's just this immense pressure. And to me, stoicism has always been the way out of that, that pressure I put on myself and everything. Because it's like, it gets you down to the root of like, oh wait, why am I actually doing this?

1:13:05What's actually important? And why isn't something in my control or something that's not in my control? And that's the main thing is like, what is and what isn't? Like what's in my control? You know, knowing that I show up to every single opportunity, 100 % prepared the way I like to. That's in my control. What they decide is not up to me. What's in my control is what I create, you know, or, or the offers. Cause like now it's really cool. We're in this place where it's like, there will be some great offers that come by and there'll be a lot of bad ones. And then there'll be stuff that I fight for.

1:13:35And that's kind of just how it is forever. And, um, every opportunity you just have to, look at a different way and just see, is this something that's going to elevate me and make me feel great when I'm a part of it or not, regardless of money or anything like that. When the acceptance of rejection is so hard because you don't get where you are, whether it's an entrepreneur or a creative or an artist, by accepting no. So it's like, people said it wasn't going to work. They said you were never going to make it. They said you were too short, you were too fat, you were too this gender, that gender, right?

1:14:11And you got where you got by not taking no for an answer. And then eventually you arrive at a place where you have to practice what the Stoics call the art of acquiescence, where you're like, actually, I do have to accept. I do have to take no as an answer because this isn't in my control. And perhaps fighting for this thing, maybe I will succeed, but it's actually not the right thing for me. Like there's a great expression I love. I heard where it's like, don't run to catch trains. Like you miss some of the trains. Do you know what I mean? Like you don't actually know that getting on that train is like, that could be the train that crashes, right?

1:14:51You could meet the person you're meant to marry on the next train. Like just coming, coming to terms with the fact that sometimes it doesn't go your way. Sometimes you don't get it. That feels so dangerously like complacency and like, you know, like, uh, you know, that expression, show me a good loser and I'll show you a loser. I think we're, we're nervous of being the person that accepts rejection, that that will make us a nobody or a nothing. But I think if you actually have some confidence and you're like, I'll make the next thing work, like maybe this one wasn't meant for me. That's the attitude that actually gets you the next shot and the next shot and and lets you keep going.

1:15:28Have you read The Power of Intention? No. So my mom just sent me this book and I just finished it yesterday and I'm rereading it right now. It started this morning. I think what you just said was so well said. And you're not this complacent nobody if you're worried about that. You know, it's like... Complacency is probably not your problem. Exactly. Like, you know, you have the art of intentions. It's like you intend to do something and you're going to do something. It's just maybe you just missed this train and maybe that's exactly what you needed to miss. Yeah. Yeah. Dude, thank you so much.

1:16:14This is awesome. Brian, you're the man. Thank you for having me. I really appreciate it, dude.

1:16:22Thanks so much for listening. If you could rate this podcast and leave a review on iTunes, that would mean so much to us and it would really help the show. We appreciate it. And I'll see you next episode.

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