Adrian Grenier On How Turning To Philosophy Saved His Life

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2:34Welcome to the weekend edition of The Daily Stoic. Each weekday, we bring you a meditation inspired by the ancient Stoics, something to help you live up to those four Stoic virtues of courage, justice, temperance, and wisdom. And then here on the weekend, we take a deeper dive into those same topics. We interview Stoic philosophers. We explore at length how these Stoic ideas can be applied to our actual lives and the challenging issues of our time. Here on the weekend, when you have a little bit more space, when things have slowed down, be sure to take some time to think, to go for a walk, to sit with your journal, and most importantly, to prepare for what the week ahead may bring.

3:28Hey, it's Ryan Holiday. Welcome to another episode of The Daily Stoic Podcast. I was at this party, I forget when it was, it was a while ago, and sort of hanging out, There's a bunch of fancy people there. And, you know, it's time to go. And Adrian Grenier walked up to me and said, hey, can I have a ride home? I said, what? He said, yeah, can I have a ride home? I think we're neighbors. And I said, what? That can't possibly be right. I live like in the middle of nowhere. And it turns out we sort of were neighbors. He had moved out to where I live, where the painted porch is, out in Bastrop, Texas, which is about 30 to 45 minutes from Austin.

4:10And he and I were on sort of similar tracks. We're sort of on different, it's a very big county. We're not exactly next to each other, but it's small enough. It's a small town. We live in the same small town and I did drive him back and we've gotten to know each other quite a bit since. We bumped into each other in town a bunch of different times. And it was funny, he'd just recently moved out and he He asked if he could use the office a couple of times to get to use our Wi-Fi. This is during the pandemic when there was like some Zoom stuff, when people were doing a lot more Zoom stuff. Because the internet is the one thing they don't tell you when you move out to the country is that the internet is going to be terrible.

4:49And it is quite terrible. So I totally understood. He used my office a bunch. Anyways, he sends me a text one day and he says, hey, can I have a package delivered to the bookstore? And I go, yeah, sure. And I don't think twice about it. and then he gets the package delivered, the whole thing. And a couple of weeks later, I see like an announcement in the news that Adrian Grenier has been gotten engaged. And I go to my wife and I go, hey, did you know Adrian got engaged? Isn't that cool? And she goes, what the hell do you think he was getting delivered to the bookstore? And it turns out that's what he was getting delivered to the bookstore was the engagement ring.

5:27And of course she and all the employees knew all about it and it did not occur to me why someone would be getting a package delivered, what it would mean, all of that. So it was funny to play a small role in that. And he and I have become friends and shared farming and shared ranching tips and practices. And hey, you got a guy that can do this. You got a guy that can do this. And we've become friends. He's also friends with my in-laws because they live close to him too. And so this was a long time coming. He and I had been trying to get this done and he was gonna have me on his podcast, which is also awesome, called Man Up Right as part of his Earthspeed docuseries.

6:11So we just decided, you know what? You come out to the studio there next to the painted porch. We'll sit down and we'll just talk for a really long time, which we did. This is one of the longest episodes we've ever done on the Daily Stoic. So I'm gonna split it up into two episodes. If you don't know who I'm talking about, by the way, I know I'm just sort of Adrian because that's how I'm thinking about him. But Adrian is a spectacular actor. He was the star of Entourage. He was in The Devil Wears Prada. Marauders drive me crazy. He was in the new Netflix series Clickbait. And you've seen him a million times.

6:47He's had this unique experience of getting famous, playing a famous person, and then made a documentary about it called Teenage Paparazzo. that's great too. He was a goodwill ambassador for the United Nations Environmental Program. He has a charity called the Lonely Whale Foundation, where he advocates for a reduction in single-use plastics. And I'm excited to bring you this interview with the one and only Adrian Grenier. You can follow him on Instagram at Adrian Grenier. You can follow his nature-based lifestyle platform at earthspeed and you can check out his podcast man upright on his youtube channel at earthspeed adrian grenier when did you move here uh man it's been about so almost two and a half years to to Bastrop yeah uh Austin I was I've been here for almost six years okay yeah five and a half years and I've been coming to Austin for over a decade yeah and I had a little uh bungalow on the east side so I'd come here quite often I'd come here at least once or twice a year for South by yeah because I had um an artist-run music label so we used to do showcases at Arlen's studio every year.

8:17And then I just met a bunch of cool people, made some friends and, uh, started a beer company with, uh, many investors from Austin and, uh, just fell in love with the town. I think we have the same almost exact trajectory. Cause I basically moved to Austin from New York and then, uh, to East, to the East side, which I loved. And then we were like, well, if we're going to live in Texas, we should live in Texas. And that's how We've come a long way, baby. I mean, from Dove Charney here, you know? I was going to ask you about that. I know. So, well, we started this interview, right? Yeah, yeah. Why not?

8:54So, I guess in no particular order, we are on parallel paths. And how long have you been here? I moved here in 2013, so 10 years. I moved to Texas in 2013. Oh, yeah. And then we got our place out here in 2015. Okay, yeah. You were a few years before. Yeah, the first weekend we moved here, so it's like we moved here on, I think it was Memorial Day, and it starts like raining. It's like, okay, I don't think like Memorial Day, lots of rain, so it's raining, raining, raining, raining, raining. And then there's like a tornado watch, and our house has like a safe room in it. So we're like, do we have to go in the safe?

9:39So like I've not lived in the South that long. So now I'm like hunkered down from a tornado where, you know, like the, the, the alerts or whatever on your phone. And then it's like, dam has burst, moved to higher ground. Dam has burst, moved to higher ground. And there's a, there was an earthen dam in, um, uh, the Lost Pines Park up here. Um, what's it called? Um, Bastrop State Park. Oh, is it still there? Well, it burst and all the water flowed from the park down into Tahitian Village and into Bastrop and stuff. It was this crazy flood. Um, they just rebuilt the dam. Uh, but all that happened the first, and then that summer, then, then the park got on fire.

10:17So it was, it was a, it was quite a, were you seriously questioning your choices? Yeah. Well, and then anyone that moves, like, I think you think it's going to be fun to like move out to the country and you get, and it is fun. Like the first, like couple of weeks you do it and then everything goes wrong and you have none of the skills required to fix it. And so you're just completely overwhelmed and you're like, I think I've made a huge mistake. And then you realize the people sold you what you bought because they were tired of it and because they deferred all the maintenance on it. And so all of that bill comes due for you like the first month you live there.

10:58Yeah, everything starts falling apart day one. Yeah, I've been there. But so, okay, so just in terms of the timeline, you moved here and then you, is that what got you interested in Stoicism? No, no, no, no. Because that was around the same time, right? No, no, wait. So I got introduced to Stoicism in college and then - But when you started writing about Stoicism. So my first, yeah, my first book - Because I would imagine you would have to reach into, you know, book of like the Stoics books and Marcus Aurelius in order to help you get through - Yes. Life in the country. Yes. Although, so, okay.

11:34So my first book on socialism came out right the year after we moved to Austin. So I was living in East Austin when that came out. Okay. And then I wrote a chunk of Ego's the Enemy and The Daily Stoic on the ranch. That was like, those were the first projects that I did there. That's what I was getting at. Yes, yes, yes, yes. So it was in college and then I was studying it and researching it and that was my life. but then I had, that was what I was intellectually interested in. But then my life was very, very different because I worked for Doug Charney. Right. Yeah. Right. So you took a little side.

12:10I took a break. Or there, I think, and you can probably relate to this, there was a very big divergence between who I thought I was and what I was interested in and who I was aspiring to be and then what I did for a living and what my work was like every day. What people would pay you to do. Yes, exactly. Yeah. So that was, yeah, that was a, that was, and in my head, like in retrospect, that was a, both a, that was like a short period and then actually a very long period. And it, you're, you, you rationalize and justify things because it seems crazy to walk away. Things seems crazy to quit. It's just supposed to be one more thing or whatever.

12:53And then it's just one more job. Yeah, it's a lot. Getting out is a lot long, takes a lot longer than you think it's going to take. Yes, yes. We are so alike. So you dropped out of school. I dropped out of school. We all, we were hipster and intellectuals. And then we ended up becoming, you know, media sellouts, I guess. Yes. And then we ended up here. And then we ended up here. No, I had the same trajectory because I resisted entourage and Hollywood and fame. And I had a lot of chances to become famous. And I said no all the time. I used to blow off auditions that I knew I was going to get because I didn't want to do it.

13:34And then I got so broke that it was like, all right, I compromised my values a little bit and then found success. And you have to rationalize it. Otherwise, you're going to be miserable. And then the more you rationalize it, the more it becomes your identity, the more you start to appreciate it. just the lifestyle and the, you know, the materialism. Then suddenly you become it. I think I wanted it more. Like I think I was like, I'm a little bit younger than you. So I watched those shows, right? So like, I remember I worked for this writer, Tucker Max, when I was in college. And I went to live with him the summer after my sophomore year of college.

14:15He was like, I just saw this screenplay. And you wanted to be a writer. Yeah, I wanted to be a writer. and so I'm like, he just sold this screenplay. They were turning it into a movie. He had all these projects going on. And so I remember he was like, just come live with me for the summer in LA. And I think Entourage had just come out. Maybe it was the first or the second season. And so I'm like, this is going to be like Entourage. Like, that's what it's going to be like. And then he lived at - I ruined Ryan Holiday. He lived at Crenshaw and Pico. So as far, like, like in essentially the ghetto and I slept on a mattress on the floor of the living room with like his dogs.

15:00Like it was, it was as unglamorous as, I remember one day a dog just walked into the front yard of, front yard is glamorous because it was, it was concrete. Like it was like a, you know, a chain linked concrete paddock. and this dog that was clearly from a dog fighting ring just walked into the front yard and died and you're like i was like this is not this is not the los angeles lifestyle that i thought i was moving toward or moving to so i think there was a part of like i was a i was an assistant at a talent agency or a talent management agency and then i was working so i thought it was going to be this whole crazy cool thing and it was the opposite of that in every way right well you're young, you know, I was sleeping on couches myself, you know, hanging out in offices just to use the wifi, you know?

15:51In fact, I was in Mexico before Entourage. I had a thousand dollars to my name. I was making a documentary about, I was like trying to sneak into Cuba to make a documentary about Cuban hip hop. And I was just like at my lowest in life. I needed to like go home and get a real job this time. And I got a call about the show entourage and ended up like having my agent send me a ticket, like fly me to LA reluctantly to sleep on my manager's couch. And I just grinned. I like closed my eyes, like held my breath and just swallowed it even though it wasn't who I was ultimately. Who did you think you were?

16:36i i was a filmmaker i was a musician i i acted because when i was younger we used to make movies and on on the high eight cameras like me and my friends on a friday night and you do what you needed to do like you'd hold the boom or you'd act or you'd hold the camera because there's only a few people so you all play many different roles so i i was acting really out of necessity but it wasn't, I didn't want to be famous. I didn't want to be, I didn't want that to be my, you know, I was always uncomfortable being the center of anything to be honest. I like to be sort of in the background. Do you think that's kind of maybe why they wanted you is that you weren't that thirsty for you?

17:17A hundred percent. A hundred percent. Cause I said no to the audition multiple times and they, and they were like, who's this kid who we can't get? Because if there's a celebrity out there, they're already famous and they're not going to do this show this pilot for a show and without getting paid more than the budget and all everybody who wanted it was too thirsty they were just desperate for it so they didn't feel um you know celebrities don't beg right for a part so i was the opposite of begging i was very uh indifferent nonchalant cool suave whatever and i think that that that worked interesting yeah it's uh it is weird you think that when you don't want it as bad, you seem to get the things that when you were trying, like the Buddhists call it willful will, like the harder you're trying, the sort of the worse you are at stuff.

18:10And that role specifically sort of, it's weird to be playing a thing that you're not. It's like when, what's weird about that role is kind of like when you listen to like rappers' first albums and they're talking about like flying on private jets that they couldn't have possibly afforded yet. So you have to have some sense that, but, but so what that really is, is like the sort of confidence and the, the identity of the thing before you've actually, the faking it till you make it. Totally. And you not being interested because you were interested in something else sort of mimics the attitude that that person would have.

18:43And look, I think you got to fake it till you make it on some level. You know, that's what acting is. You know, I always think in terms of personal development, you're not, you're not the thing you want to be. Yeah. But you have to try it on. Yeah. They call it acting as if. As if, right. Even do an extreme version that may be kind of phony and fake and feel awkward until it becomes more familiar. Then adjust it into something more natural. And the next thing you know, it's like what I did with chess. Chess, when I was younger, I wanted to be, I wanted to be the type of guy that drank whiskey, listened to jazz and played chess.

19:18Right. Because you saw those somewhere and you, they, they meant something to you. Beatniks or something. I don't know. And then I didn't know how to play jazz. I didn't like the taste of whiskey and I was, you know, I didn't listen to jazz yet. So it was like all weird and, you know, I, you know, abstract for me. So then what did I do? Just went to jazz clubs, ordered whiskey and started playing chess. Next thing you know, I got pretty good at chess. I started to really enjoy jazz and man, and that whiskey went down smooth. And I became that guy just by, you know, faking it for long enough. But did you, but that's the other thing is like, was that actually who you were?

19:57Like, I think for me too, there was this sense, as I grew up in Northern California, so Southern California sort of had this allure. And then like, I found that a good chunk of my 20s was sort of being drawn towards things, not because like I was interested in them, but because people were interested in them. And you're like those people or you wanted to be a part of that. Yeah, there's this philosopher, Rene Girard. He has this thing called mimetic desire. Do you know what this concept is? Yeah, yeah. It's the idea that like, you don't know what you want. So you want what other people want. Yeah.

20:30And so like, it wasn't like, I didn't even, a lot of the things I ended up doing, I didn't even know existed, right? I ended up doing them because someone was like, that's a thing that exists that you could be good at and I want you to do that thing and I was like okay or they embody cool yes you know enough that you're like oh I want to dress like that guy or be a rock star and live the lifestyle and yes be on entourage you just want you just want something better than the life you come from or more interesting than the life you come from or you want you want what's associated with it which for me I think was like there was sort of like a dad energy in it of like approval slash like they support you they see your potential things that i i didn't really get growing up so i was like i was like oh well if these father-like figures are telling me i should do it i should do it like but also just the human drive to explore and yeah you know try the frontier of your your own life you know looking at you know what you could be and try it all try it all a little bit well i noticed like like i had a series of sort of very powerful but like controversial bosses and my sister has the same what's your father your father was in the picture yeah yeah he was but uh he wasn't like like some sort of abusive or distant figure but he was it sort of loomed large in our house do you know what i mean and was kind of um i don't even know how to describe i'm still actually sort of working on figuring it out myself.

22:00But my sister and I both have had very similar bosses and very similar sort of like next to the throne jobs. And you think it's reflective of your father? It doesn't strike me as a coincidence. Right. Do you know what I mean? Because you could work and do anything. And very few people tend to get those kinds of jobs slash roles. So the fact that we both ended up doing it, I've always found to be somewhat illustrated. You know, it's like you're always looking, you're looking for something that you didn't get Or there's sort of a daddy, daddy, tell me you're proud of me kind of a vibe. Sure. Which can be very motivating, but also can take you far from where you should go or where you deep down want to go.

22:47Right. Yeah. I mean, I've been exploring a lot about father wounds and how they manifest and how we recreate them to try and overcome or earn approval. or daddy don't leave in my case, you know, all that stuff comes out. I talked about this in my stillness book, but like at the height of his golf career, Tiger Woods is the greatest golfer in the world, maybe the greatest, most dominant athlete in any sport. And he seriously considers leaving to join the Navy SEALs. Like he tries to make it as a Navy SEAL, which seems insane on its face until you realize - When did he do this? This is like 10, 15 years ago.

23:29Did he? Yeah. I did not know that. That's how he fucks up his knees and his back is like jumping out of airplanes. He's sort of, that's why he's so much stronger than he actually needs to be. And he fucks up his knee in one case in these sort of training exercises where he gets his knee kicked out. Like they're clear, you know, like you're clearing a room, like he's doing these military exercises and somebody accidentally kicks out his knee. It all seems insane. You're like, why would you go from golf, which doesn't seem to be this super aggressive physical sport to Navy SEALs? Well, his father was a Green Beret in Vietnam and a complete asshole and a sort of dominating, abusive figure in Tiger Woods' life.

24:05And you're like, oh, you want it? Even though his dad wasn't even around anymore, there was some part of like, I'm, it doesn't matter how much I have, how much I've done. I'm not anything until I've done what my dad's done. Yeah. It's very, very Freudian. oh well you know i i was thinking about this interview with you and i i and it sort of clicked i was like great because i have a series called man upright and it's all about because now i'm a father right you're a father so like how old now he's two months okay um during the shit um but not wanting to repeat the patterns wanting to show up as a better man and a better father for my son.

24:50And man, just knowing that no matter what you do on some level, you're going to instill some things that, you know, you're not immune. You can't reach perfection. No. Right? So you kind of stumble through it in many ways. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, everyone has, there's no people that do not have some issues with their childhood, I think. So sort of letting, not letting yourself off the hook, but being kind to yourself going like, this isn't like a thing you can win. Yeah. And it's, it's, it's, it's not zero sum. Yeah. There's no right and wrong, right? You're, you're in a continuum of learning yourself.

25:30Yes. And part of learning yourself is through imitation. You know, when you're younger, you, you, you look up and you, I mean, I'm doing the imitation with my son right now, like, you know, like faces and tongue and all the whole thing. That's where they think empathy comes from. the ability to go like oh they're making this face at me they're having they're mirroring my emotions back to me so that's what my emotions are and so like i've i think if you have parents that are bad at that that's why you can become bad at that yeah wow huh so tiger woods i think while maybe his dad was an asshole i don't know um we still instilled in him some drive to achieve, you know, I don't know, bodily physique, you know, heights or.

26:20Well, there's a story you might like, so he's like, you know, the famous story is like Tiger Woods is golfing at like two years old. Right. Right. And there's a story that Tiger Woods, there's some things that you don't quite understand until you have kids. So like, there's a story that what his dad would do is strap him into the like high chair and then just hit golf balls in the garage for like hours and hours and hours. And then one day Tiger Woods gets out of the thing, picks up a golf club and hits it, right? And I remember I first heard that and I was like, oh, that's what it takes to be great.

26:52And then I go like, who just forces their kid to watch him hit golf balls for hours? Like that must suck for the kid, right? You sort of go like, oh, that's weird. But there's a story where like, because he started golfing so young, he became this sort of like prodigy slash media sensation. So like maybe at three or four, he was on like the Merv Griffin show. So one of those like old daytime like talk shows. And so he's like showing how he can golf and everyone's like clapping and cheering. And some actor was the other guest. It was like Gregory Peck or, you know, someone like that. I'm forgetting who it was, but they're watching this and everyone's like clapping and cheering and like, this is amazing.

27:29And supposedly like Gregory Peck leans over to the host and goes like, this isn't cool at all. And he goes like, what are you talking about? And he's like, I've seen too many child actors and performers like over the years. And he's like, I know what it took to make this kid do it. And he's like, this won't end well. And so for like 40 years, it doesn't, it seems, or let's say 35 years, it seems that that's totally forgotten because Tiger Woods seems like the most successful, most well-adjusted, like greatest athlete ever. He was performing. Yes. He was just doing what he had been molded to do.

28:08And there's actually a great book I have in the bookstore. I'll give it to you. Have you read Range by David Epstein? It's actually this really great sort of parenting book in disguise. The whole book is basically a contrast between Tiger Woods and Roger Federer. So Tiger Woods is supposed to be like, that's what it takes to be great. And Roger Federer doesn't pick up a tennis racket seriously until he's like 19 or something. Like he doesn't do that, but he plays lots. He has this more like easygoing childhood with a lot of different experimentation. He plays all the sports, you know, his identity isn't tied up in whether he wins or loses.

28:44And, you know, arguably they're the two equally dominant athletes, but one doesn't hate himself and blow up his life. Right. And the other does. Yeah. I really am feeling into the fact that I can't teach my kid anything. I can't show them and make them do anything. I can mostly live by example and be the best man I can be. And they will see that and emulate it and then hopefully become their own person. And really something I'm learning and I think it's related is true sovereignty, like being in charge of your choices. Yes. Right. And not just pretending so that you look cool or pleasing your friends or making mommy and daddy proud or doing the work that your boss is going to give you a raise for all these things.

29:39And it wasn't until recently that I have found that I'm truly making my own choices.

29:57Thanks to Toyota Trucks for sponsoring this episode. When I bought my ranch in 2015 out here in Bastro County, I drove my car about halfway down the dirt road that we live on, thought this isn't going to work, stopped, parked it, walked the rest of the way home, borrowed my wife's car, drove in Austin and bought a truck. What I bought was a Toyota Tacoma. And this truck wasn't just transportation getting me to and from my house. It unlocked a whole different style of living for us, not just on the ranch, but in our little Texas towns. There were places I could go now that I couldn't go before, especially out here in the piney forests, through the fields, and on the unpaved roads like the one that I lived in.

30:42We got to go deep into the hill country's wild beauty. We've driven all the way out to East Texas. We've driven across the country. and by we I mean not just my wife but both my kids who I drove home from the hospital in that truck. Toyota trucks are built for those who understand that the best adventures happen when you're willing to veer off course because you never know when you'll end up on a Toyota adventure detour. And of course this is stoicism too because every detour, every obstacle is an opportunity. But it's helpful if you can handle the difficulty inherent in that. If you've got the resilience and the right companion to make it wherever the road takes you.

31:21Discover your uncharted territory. Learn more at toyota.com slash trucks slash adventure dash detours. Well, it's almost here. Christmas is just a couple of days away and maybe you're scrambling. You're like, what should I get my dad? What should I get my mom? I got to get something to my sister. People love showing off pictures of their kids and that's where today's sponsor comes in. I've gotten one as a gift. I've given it as a gift. The Aura digital picture frame. It's easy to use. It never gets old. You're constantly updating it with new pictures. Aura digital picture frames are so much better than any digital picture frame I've ever seen.

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32:52Yeah, I mean, that's what makes you good. Not being that way is a very adaptive skill for success in the world, right? Like doing stuff to... External world. Yeah, doing stuff so people will be pleased with you, proud of you, like you. The illusion of success or the bling. Like compare two actors, right? One who really wants the director, dad, to be proud of them, like them, approve of them, you know, pleased with them. That's the actor who will do anything and everything and will not quit. And then the one who's like self-motivated, self-contained, has their own sense of what, like, ultimately one is, I think, more sustainable and well-adjusted and healthy.

33:37but the other is more conducive to like being controlled, being directed, you know, and also being motivated. And so like you, you, the, these, these parts of ourselves are rewarded, you know, um, and then it becomes this feedback loop. And so it's really hard to break out of it. In some ways you almost, you either need, either it needs to really not work for you or you need to achieve a certain amount of success. And then you have the power to go, I just don't want to be that way anymore. And you can't make me. Yeah. Well, it's tough because there's a certain discipline inherent within other people telling you what to do or trying to please them.

34:20It's motivating. There's motivation in it. Like I just want to be loved or don't leave me. So I'm going to like do a song and dance so that you like me and stay versus having to find the motivation, the driving force without all of that neurotic layer. And that's something, I mean, frankly, that I'm working on is like, how do I continue to achieve, make, well, it's really more financial. Like, how do I continue to bring in money, even though I'm not playing those games? And I'm truly making a decision to live a life that is what I really true, who I am. Yeah. It's like, is that really who you were.

34:56Like who I really am is me now. Well, I, growing up, my parents were very interested in like what people did, how much money they made, their proximity or adjacentness to like fame or attention or whatever. Right. Like, oh, this, like, they'd be like, we went on vacation and wine, you know who we saw at the beach? Like insert famous person. Right. Or like this person lives in this neighborhood and you know who else lives in that neighborhood, right? So like even now my parents will be like, you know why we just found out like so-and-so moved to our town. Like so there's a lot of that, right? And so I don't think in retrospect, it's coincidence that like there was some part of me that moved to Los Angeles that wanted to be on the bestseller list, that wanted to make money, you know, that wanted to have certain people blur my books or to even just be an author, right?

35:46So there was this part of me that was motivated by those things that are really not healthy motivations and really not meaningful motivations, but they're obviously good. They're powerful motivations, right? And so it's been a process of shedding that over time. Like I still like what I do and I still want to do it and I still want to do it at a high level, but I want to not be doing it. I've tried to become more and more as a society indifferent to those sort of things that are not really up to me. And be more, do I think it's good? Did it accomplish what I was trying to do? Did I work hard on it?

36:25And the weird paradoxical thing is that I've actually done better the less I have been interested in those things. Now, it could be a coincidence or it could just be I was so motivated by those other things that it's just continuing. Well, what's your metric for better? I just mean even by those old metrics. So my last book, Discipline's Destiny, is the book that I have checked on the sales the least, where I actively made decisions that made hitting bestseller lists less likely. Like I sold copies through my store, which don't count for the list. And my publisher was like, you know, if you do this, like it will affect where you end up, you know.

37:07So a bunch of stuff like that, right? And then the way I wrote the book. So are you not getting the accolades from the outside world or you still are? Well, what I'm saying is that as I've gone on, I've optimized slash aimed at those things less, but actually sold more, gotten a good chunk of those things anyway. But are they being counted by the outside metrics? To a certain degree. It's this weird thing where it's kind of like the harder you're aiming. It's like, actually, golf is a good metaphor. The harder you're trying to hit the ball in golf, the more you're going to flank it or just miss it altogether.

37:45Right. And so you it's this kind of weird thing where you have to try less hard to do better. And I've I've found that in my writing career. It's a meditation. So I'm selling better the less I'm thinking about trying to make something that sells. Right. Or trying to. spend all my energy on the sales side of things rather than the making stuff of things. Yeah. I don't know if people can hear that, but there's literally a parade going by the door. One of the wonderful slash strange things about being in a small town. You need to get a trailer and take this on the road. Do a movie and podcast. Oh, we should be doing the podcast as part of the parade.

38:28Exactly. We can announce it. So it's, that's one of the things I really like about living here though, is just like, it's just a totally different, there just aren't parades in, I mean, there's the Macy's Day parade, let's say, but like, there's not just like, hey, all the neighbors are getting together for a Pioneer Festival next week. And by the way, anybody, Macy's Day parade, you can't just go walk it. Yeah, you can't participate in it. This, get your truck, throw on a trailer, put some balloons up, and you're in. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. No, it's amazing. It's like living in 100 years ago or something.

39:08Well, and my appreciation for farm equipment now has, is that an all-time high? I got a tractor, by the way. Nice. We may have the same one. Brayden picked it out for me. Oh, really? No, I don't think so. I bought mine from the Cowboys who sold me the ranch. Oh, I thought he helped you pick one out. No, no, it was one of his. And I think he might've ripped me off, but. Brandon? No, no, no, no. No, no, I thought, remember you had. No, he was helping me decide whether or not I should buy it. Oh, okay, got it, got it, got it. Yeah, well, maybe. Anyways, it's fine. It's actually, it's not, it's in the shop right now.

39:44And in the shop means I'm trying to fix it. Oh. Which takes a lot longer, I'll tell you. But I'm trying to, because these old. You're trying to learn how to do it. What, what did you get, a John Deere? No, it's, I don't even know. It's orange. That's what I know about. Probably, yeah. Okay. So my appreciation for farm equipment has piked. And I don't remember what it was. Did they have a parade here where it's literally just - Yeah, they tell the stuff, yeah. It's like big farm equipment and hydraulic machines and drills, and they just roll through the town. You're just like, wow, look at this, so cool.

40:22Well, yeah, and then you'll meet someone, and they drive like the dustiest, crappiest, oldest truck. And then they have like a$200 ,000 tractor. And you're like, oh, okay. Different priorities. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Very expensive, this equipment. That's why I put it, I just, I mean, I've lived out here eight years. And for hay, I used, like, my ATV has this, like, trailer that hooks up to it. And you back the trailer up and then it flip. it's like a, it's a non-mechanized way of picking up the hay bales. It's really cool. The physics on this thing are like insane. Okay. So it just. So basically you, you, you hook it up to your ATV.

41:04It's a dump truck of sorts? No, no. So it's, it's like this, it just looks like a trailer that you would like put a boat on or something, just like a standard. It doesn't look fancy. You hook it up to your ATV, you back it up to the hay bale. Like, let's say this is sideways, right? Like the round bale. You back it up and then you slam on the, like you lock the brakes and then it folds. The trailer folds over the bale and then these two spikes. Through inertia? Through its own? Yeah, because you're backing up, but the wheels can't move. So it's got this hinge in it. I'll show you a video. I see.

41:35Are you doing this yourself? Yeah, yeah. And then - So, because I want to come out for a proper tour of the farm and see what you're up to out there. By the way, we've been neighbors for how many years and we've yet - I know. Well, I've been to your place. You've been to my place, yeah. Your place is closer. You've been keeping me away from, I don't know what you're doing out there. Yeah, yeah. You're up to something. It turns out I actually live in a... So there's this kind. So this one is cool. You just back that up and then it stabs the bale and then you crank it by hand and it goes like that.

42:06Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But there's a lot of tension and it's kind of sketchy. We have a... I just have basically a spike that goes on the back of the tractor. You just poke it and lift it and move it. That's what I'm doing. One by one. That's what I did yesterday. But for like eight years, I did this old way because I didn't trust myself to not take care of a tractor. So are you actually mowing your fields for hay? Get it delivered. I see. And that's for the cows? For the cows, yeah. Okay. Yeah. How many cows do you have now? 15. Yeah. And just cows? We've cows, donkeys. We had goats until we had a wild dog incident.

42:46A dog? The dog? Yeah, that's the main predator out here. The dog killed the goats? Like a pack of wild dogs killed three goats. Fuck. Like brutally. Oh, man. It was horrible. And we actually had them when we lived in East Austin, so they were like more than pets. Oh, family. Yeah, I know. Yeah, I'm sorry, man. It was a, that is the, we're jumping ahead, but I have found that living out here has been, like the Stoics talk about memento mori, like this practice of meditating on immortality. Like the proximity to death, even when you are trying very hard and doing your best. Brother, you're talking my language.

43:24I mean, yes. Very eye-opening and life-changing. Mm-hmm. All day, every day. Yeah. Have you lost anything yet? Of course. We just, our llama just had a stillbirth. Oof. It was brutal. Like, you know, we're all of a sudden, you know, Jordan's has, you know, elbows inside trying to coax this poor baby out. And it just, it was not alive. And it's heartbreaking. And a year, a llama's gestation is a year. Yeah. And we just had our child. So it was just like, oh. This isn't this abstract like thing that animals do. Like you're like, oh, that's a mammal thing. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And we're not that different.

44:10Yeah. And so I'm working on a project. It's a television series that I created about grief. Oh. And for too long, we've been in the cities. Yeah. And cities are designed to mask you from those realities. Of course. Right? They're an escape from our mortality, right? Mm-hmm. And here on the ranch and the farm, within nature, you are definitely pitting up against that razor's edge. Everything is trying to survive, trying to live. Something dies and something else eats it. It's for food, right? You know the longhorn skulls that are on the wall in the bookstore? So we bought the place and then the neighboring guy had the cows and then he got old and he wanted to leave.

44:59So he was like, do you want to buy my cows? So we got these cows, which he assured us were like, he's like, oh, they're like seven, eight, nine, 10 years old. And it's like immediately after we got them, they all started dying of old age. Like they were like 20 years old. Like I have, that is one of the humbling things we've learned out here is just like your neighbors are really nice, but they will also trick the shit out of you if they want to get rid of something. A deal's a deal. Exactly. So we bought these old cows. And then, so like one of them, like one of them got so old that like it couldn't eat anymore.

45:33Like, so it's like slowly dying. So we, you know, the vet comes out and he's like, I think you've got a little more time. Blah, blah. So we're like, okay. And then like, you know, flash forward a couple of months later, it's like definitely near death. It's not eating. And we call the vet and the vet's like, okay, I could come out like next week and, you know, it'd be like$250. I'll like put it down. He's like, but you should just take care of it. And I go like, well, what does that mean? He's like, you have a gun, right? you should take care of it. And I was like, okay. And so now, now I have to go put down like my own cow.

46:07Um, and you know, I ultimately end up doing it, but like there's a bullet hole in the skull of that cow. Cause like I had to put it there and it's just, it's a different relationship with life. Cause you didn't want to spend the money. Because you want to do yourself. No, no. It was like, do you, am I going to let this, it's not the$250 it's, do I want to let let this thing suffer for an additional week while we wait for the vet, right? The vet's like, I'm busy, I'll come out, but the animal's going to suffer in the meantime. Well, more to the point, not only is being in charge of your choice making about your own life and how you be and who you are, it's also about what you take responsibility for.

46:48You took charge of that situation to be a protector, to be compassionate to this animal. And before my, the animal rights, you know, peace and love, you know, we are all one mentality from my liberal upbringing in New York was like, don't kill animals. Like, oh, those poor things that, you know, but, you know, have a different relationship to life and death now and to killing. Yeah. It's, uh, if you read the little Prince, did you hear that book when you were a kid? Oh yeah. Yeah. He goes, we're responsible forever for what we've tamed. I should probably reread it now that I'm an adult. It's a great kid's book.

47:23Yeah. But he says, we're responsible for what we've tamed. And it's like, I didn't domesticate this cow. I didn't put it here, but it's my problem now. And it can't handle, like, so it's this, what is less cruel? Putting it down or letting it die naturally, painfully, in a situation of its own making or not of its own making. Like it wasn't, it was bred to do something that it is fundamentally unnatural and unsustainable. And now it's not like a lion's going to come take care of this problem now that it's the weakest member of the herd. It's just going to wither and die. And either not making a choice, like not choosing not to do something about it is also an ethical choice.

48:11Yeah. Yeah. And so it forces you to reckon with things that, yeah, living in the city, you know, you don't, how many people put a, put aside, like see a person die. How many people see literally anything die? Right. Yeah. Their whole life. Yeah. Yeah. You just hear about it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We, we, you know, we have chickens and, you know, we can let them free. range so that they're natural and out in the fields and, you know, foraging for insects. But then guess who else is foraging? Yeah. The bobcats and the hawks. So, you know, you have to make these choices, right? Are you going to close them in, smothering mother, like protect them, you know, in their life, but make them suffer in a cage?

48:59You know, it's not easy. I heard a noise on the porch last night and there was five raccoons on my porch. Oh, those are the raccoons. And it was like, brutal, those guys. We had slowly been watching the chickens disappear. We assumed it was something like that. That's who it was. And then it was like, now I have this decision. What am I going to do about the raccoons? And I ended up, it was actually funny. My wife grabbed a shoe and she threw it at them and it knocked them over like bowling pins. It was like the most comical thing I've ever seen. And then they all scampered away. And I'll just do a trap like tonight and I'll move them or whatever.

49:35But yeah, you realize, hey, this choice that feels kind, say like not locking up the chickens, is perhaps not kind, right? Or because it's not like you didn't breed, like somebody bred them to be totally unprotected, unable to defend themselves. I mean, God made them food. Yeah. I mean. The food for you or food for something. Yeah, something. but either way you just get used to you have 10 chickens and then you have 8 chickens and then what's also revealing or interesting about it I remember we had this goose we had a couple geese and geese are hilarious and really fun and they would live sort of on the pond and then they would come in and like the first time one of the geese got attacked we like took it to the vet paid a bunch of money to get it like you know fixed up or whatever And then like a week later, it gets, you know, taken.

50:36And we were more sad than the other geese, which did not give a shit. Right. And you realize like animals have come to cope with the fact that somebody gets picked off on a regular basis and then they don't feel sorry for themselves about it. They're in the moment. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah. So you're going to have to come. So what do you do about snakes? Well, it depends. If we have chickens and it's a problem for the chickens, like the eggs or whatever, it also depends on what kind of snake it is. If it's a rat snake, usually I'll hope it'll just sort of move on and go away. Please go. Yeah.

51:22You can also just put a fake egg out or a golf ball and then they disappear because they eat that. And die. Yes. Oh, so you kill them. So that's one thing you can do. Or... Oh my God. Yeah. This is where we might diverge. Okay. So you like snakes? I'm not a snake person. So when I first moved to the land, you know, you start to realize either you're going to call someone to come handle the snake, which is like ridiculous because by the time they show up, the snake's anywhere else. Yeah, yeah. And you're going to pay somebody to do that or you do it yourself. right um and the question is what are you gonna do you're gonna kill every snake you you see sure i tried that you know cut off the head of one with a shovel rattlesnake um i didn't know at the time i mean it looked like a snake it was just a scary snake you know and i was like this is not sustainable i was heartbroken and then you know you just deliberate with yourself and you start to realize, okay, if I kill every single snake, that's a lot of murder.

52:32Yeah. You know, so I learned to wrangle the snakes. I learned to – Wow. What did you do, like a stick or something? Yeah, yeah, just a long clasp with a handle on the end. Because they go in your chicken coop and they eat the eggs and they eat the chickens. Yeah, I've had to take one out of the chicken coop. I actually had some mousetraps in our chicken coop because those I will kill. That's where I draw one. Yeah. Because they will procreate. Although the snakes kill the mice. That's true. That's true. But there needs to be some balance, right? Obviously. And they're not going for the rats or the mice.

53:07They're going for the chicken eggs, which we eat. So, but I had some mousetraps in the chicken coop because there was an infestation. Yeah. And when I went to go take off the box where the mousetrap was in, because you have to protect. Yeah, you have to protect the chickens from the mousetrap. They don't eat anything. I pick up the box and there was a snake that would have tagged me right then, but it was in the mousetrap. Yeah. So I had to free the snake in order to capture it and then relocate it. Right. So I was getting into relocation for a long time, but then the question is where do you relocate them to?

53:48Right. Because if you take them a mile or two away, I mean, you're just going to basically release them into someone's yard. Yeah, somebody else's problem. You know, there's not a lot of wild areas here. You're technically not allowed to go to like the Bastrop park, right? Technically. Not to say that I did or I didn't, I might have, but where are you going to take it? And if you take it too far, they'll actually die anyway because they're too far from their habitat. And if you relocate them close by, they'll just show up again. And so I've come to the point where I'm just letting them be entirely.

54:24And now that I have a kid, it makes me feel a certain way. Yeah. But at the same time, I just, if I can create enough balance on the land, as you said, and leave them alone and be mindful. Sure. Be present in the moment. I find snakes to be a reminder to pay attention. Sure. Because sometimes if I'm walking and there's a snake, I'm like, oh, boom. Suddenly I'm there. You realize at a very primal level, you are feeling and aware of things that you are just not in a regular. Like we have a relationship with snakes that goes way back. Yes. Yes. All the way back to the first of us. Yeah, yeah.

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57:18there's a stoic philosopher his name is masonius rufus and he said the only profession suitable to a philosopher is farming which i thought was interesting and i didn't really get it first and then you realize just all the different ways that it challenges you ethically morally challenges your patience it challenges your um you know it it connects you with nature it forces you to be present. It does, it does all these, it brings through all these weird philosophical principles, which you wouldn't think that like growing stuff or raising cattle or just taking care of the land or fixing fences would draw out of you, but it does.

57:57Yes. Chop wood, carry water. Yeah. Yeah. So how do you, how do you find the balance? Because you're still in the previous world on some level, still doing the media game. And I had a question for you about, well, where do we start? How do you find the balance between your foyer into farming and ranching and still staying in it with regards to writing and all that? The hard part is like, there is something satisfying about doing it yourself. And then there's also like, did you get this thing to like take you away from your other things? Like I remember when we first had kids, it was at a different place.

58:42I had a lot going on, but I'd be like, wait, I just spent the whole day clearing brush, you know, which was like satisfying and physically, you know, invigorating, but also like my wife was inside with our four month old and maybe that's not the best use of my time. So I try to balance that. I've gotten to a place where also I don't feel insecure about it anymore in the sense that if I don't do it and I pay someone to do it, I don't feel like I'm less than - But you've done it at least the first time. That I've done most of it and I could do it if I wanted to. We just had a good chunk of our fencing replaced, like the barbed wire because it's really old.

59:23I can replace barbed wire and I have hung barbed wire, but do I need to hang several thousand feet of barbed wire? And am I going to do as good a job as people who this is their thing? So I think there's a tension in farming, but in all facets of life of like delegating versus being like a control freak. Yeah. I just think it's a slippery slope, right? I was distinctly in my other life climbing the capitalist ladder so that I could have more money to have more free time, to be more bougie, to have more brunches and get more soft. And I was quite good at it. You didn't get quite soft. I was quite, you know, I was weak.

1:00:20I had very little skills. I had some skills, which, you know, got me a media career, but I had no skills as a, as a man, as a, you know, I mean, we, we don't have to, as a man, I'm just going to say it. And now I have to make up for lost time. And so in many ways I do the work because it's, it is fulfilling and invigorating. but also because I want to make sure that I'm still in it. Like I have an embodied experience as opposed to just everything being abstract in my head and then letting other people do the work. So it is a balance because you lay a thousand feet of barbed wire and then you clear the brush.

1:01:11There's your week, right? Yeah, sure. Not to mention all the other things you have to do. so I was the same in that I was I want to do it all and I'm going to do it all myself and that was just untenable like it just doesn't make sense so can I continue every day to do something and be present in my body on the land, in nature doing the work, getting sweaty building calluses and also leave room for scalability by bringing in community, bringing in others and supporting them to participate as well. So I think, yeah, it's a balance for sure. That's something I've been thinking about as a parent, which is weird.

1:01:50Like people go like, oh, I'm going to mow my own lawn. I'm going to change my own oil. There's this idea of like, I want to do everything myself. But the one thing people are very quick to outsource is the care of their children, which I've always thought is so strange. So it's like, you'll hand off your kid to this stranger for hours a day. So that you can go mow your own lawn. Yeah. Or like, you'll, if I was like, you know what, you should, you should hire an assistant. And you go, I can't afford that. Like, that's very expensive. There's this sort of reluctant to like staff up in a business or freelance or whatever.

1:02:29And then you'll have that same person will have babysitters and nannies or what, like so they can do it. We staff, people are very comfortable with staff in all the senses of that word for the most precious thing they have in the world. And then are very possessive of things that don't matter at all, that don't say anything about you. So like my main thing is I like to spend like a lot of time with my kids. And so I'll pay people to do other shit. And I don't feel insecure about that at all. Like that doesn't make me feel like less than a man that I'm looking out and someone's like outside getting sweaty doing something for me because like I'm playing Legos with my boys or we're traveling or whatever.

1:03:17So I think the balance of like you could do it, you know how to do it. These are all very important skills. and then there is this sense of like people prioritize very strange things that are tied to their identity and then they accept as a given that like someone else should be doing the child care which i've always struck me as very strange yeah one part of the impetus for me in in my homesteading journey was about um not outsourcing my life to the world but being a part of it, like living it. Like I get to live my life. I get to, and really finding this balance of how do we choose community?

1:04:01How do we choose, um, you know, cause our, our fragmented culture forces us to outsource many of these jobs that were traditionally part of the family, like your mom would be, or your parents would be living with you or aunts and uncles and they'd help you with the kids as opposed to now you got to pay some stranger to come in and do that. While that stranger has their kid, you know, in some daycare. And he was like, you're not taking care of your kids to take care of our kids. And we're paying you so that we can do something else. It's backwards. So recalibrating all of these things is important.

1:04:37And it's not that you do it all and you just don't let anybody else touch your lawn or your kids, but it's about reintroducing yourself to what it's like to do it so that you can then find the right balance. You and I have a similar journey that we both sort of were on either like a rocket ship or we've gotten to the top of something that a lot of people would want to get to the top of. And then we both sort of stepped away. So what was that for you? Like, what were you running away from or what were you walking towards? Like, why not just continue what you're doing? That must have seemed totally insane to a lot of people.

1:05:15Because I was on the wrong track. I was definitely on the wrong path of life. I was selfish, narcissistic, indulgent, bougie as fuck. And I had an awakening. I saw my future and I realized I was going to be utterly alone. I had no family. I was in my early 40s. My girlfriend dumped me because I was a prick. And I was like rock bottom. I was like, holy shit. Like I spent all this time building up this life. so that I could strategically place dopamine hit opportunities throughout the day, whether it's drugs and alcohol, partying, sex, and all these things that would take me out of myself. Sure.

1:06:02And so I was escaping presence and feeling, numbing. And then I sort of hit a rock bottom. I was like, I got to change everything. And I didn't know what that meant. Yeah. It just meant that I had to strip away, start to reduce all of the lifestyle things that I had built, the houses, the parties and the travel and everything and just get really small. And that's when I took my house in Austin and I moved in the backyard because I was renting it out at the time to some young guys. And I basically, I moved into the trailer that I had in the backyard and I lived there for a year. basically meditating and reading and exploring who I am and what I want to be and learning to make my own choices for the first time in my life.

1:06:53Sure. You know, oh, well, I have to do this job because it's going to pay me all this money and take me around the world. But what's the, you know, what's for what, for what? Yeah. Like, and what's that going to, sure. I have more money, more escape, more, you know, people applauding me, but who am I? I remember I had a conversation with Tim Ferriss once and he was like, he was like, I have a question for you. I was like, okay. He's like, what do you do with your money? I was like, what do you mean? I was like, is this like an investment question? He's like, no. He's like, when you have money, what do you spend it on?

1:07:27He's like, you know, do you have like a speedboat? Do you like, he was like, what do you spend the money on? And I was like, like nothing. I don't There's not like things that I spend it on. I just like, just goes. You buy real estate. Yeah. Well, no, it just goes in this account and then the number gets higher. Right. Right. Like I just save it. I don't like, I have more than I need. It's basically what I was saying. And he was like, okay, so you should, he was like, make sure you make business decisions accordingly. And that was like super helpful to me because there is this sense, like, again, if you don't know what you want, you want what other people want.

1:07:58And what most people want is more. They want more money. They want lots of money. They want to get to some place where they have the most or so much or an unlimited amount. And if that's not important to you, realizing that is incredibly freeing because then you don't have to do things that you don't want to do. Yeah. Or that you shouldn't do. And then it makes it easier to say no to things. It's still very hard, especially when there's a large number attached to the thing that people are offering you. but knowing like here's the kind of thing that I want to do so I'm going to say yes to those things and then pretty much everything else I don't need to say yes to because it doesn't give me what I want and so there have been a handful of pivotal moments where like someone offered me something very very cool even if it wasn't financial but it would it would mean moving here or giving up this or not spending time with these people and going, that might be success by some traditional definition, but it's the opposite of the life that I want.

1:09:05And so I can confidently pass. So many people are driving with the brake on, you know? They're doing all these things, but it's actually keeping them. From what they want. Right. So it's like you're just creating a gulf between you and your true self. Yeah. um and my growth journey converged with the pandemic me too and that was another thing i was like holy shit like i was in my trailer when the pandemic hit and i was like i got this yeah like i don't need anything i was literally i had no i was cooking on an open flame you know in a little fire in the backyard yeah and living in a camper i was like i don't need all the things and people were struggling because all of a sudden everything that they had or their job or whatever, it's like now they have to do without and stay inside and be confronted with self.

1:09:59So for me, the pandemic was like confirmation, like you're on the right path. Yeah, it was a wake-up call for me. It was like, oh, I like where I live. I like my life. And now because some other things were taken away, like all my speaking got canceled, all this stuff went away. And it was like, now I have to spend time doing the thing that actually I want to do. My writing got better. My family life got better and all these things. And I know this can feel very glib because so many people actually did suffer and lose all these things. But yeah, there were - But it's a wake up call for a culture as well.

1:10:34But it's this idea of like a lot of people spend a lot of time doing things that are actually taking them further away from where they want to go or what they actually like. And this is an out of necessity. If you're working three jobs because you're a single mom supporting your family, that's not who we're talking about. We're talking about someone who says they're doing it all for their family. And so they're working, you know, 18 hour days on Wall Street or at some law firm to someday be able to not do that thing, to do the thing that they actually have right now. Like I remember I was talking to this guy who's an author and he had all these connections.

1:11:22So anyways, he gets this opportunity to run this VC fund. And he raises$100 million for this VC fund, which is a ton of money. And I was like, but let's walk through this. Let's say your VC fund over the next seven years succeeds. It's huge. So let's say you make$20 million,$25 million, which would be insane. When you have succeeded at this thing, what will you do then? And he's like, well, it boils down to he would go back to writing books, right? And so I was like, okay, so basically you're hoping to pull off this million to one shot. You're going to spend every waking hour trying to do this incredibly difficult competitive thing.

1:12:04You're going to try to not just beat the market, but beat all the other people trying to beat the market. and what you will do with what you have won, with your winnings, will be effectively to go back and do what you are already doing. And there's that old email that gets forwarded around, but actually it's a story about a king. There's a story of a fisherman in Vietnam or something. That's actually a story about it. The real story dates back to the 14 or 1500s. It's this king and this advisor goes, you know, we should invade this country and then invade this country and invade this country and invade this country, conquer all of them.

1:12:43And then, then we can live at peace, but they're at peace now. Right. And so there is this sense where people do a lot of things to get to a position that's actually much more accessible and realistic right now than they think it is. Yeah. And, and as opposed to developing the appreciation for the small things, the simple things, you know, the immediate, the immediacy of your, your, your situation. And not to say you shouldn't strive, but to, to build resilience. And that's one thing like now I know, like, as you were saying before, I don't, I'm not so afraid of having to achieve and make all this money and climb that ladder because I know that I can be quite happy with very little.

1:13:30Yes. You know, so it gives me a lot more freedom and it's in, in, in, in, I have the power of choice in the moment without having to make any, any choice that would be simply for the money. Yeah. You know, cause I can always, I can always fall back on my fence mending skills and do it myself. And especially with the pandemic and the uncertainty of the future and the fragility of our centralized economic system. If everything collapses tomorrow, I can survive. Your spread's a little fancier than mine, but sometimes I think, so we have this nice big piece of property. It looks out over this lake, which is really a tank, as you learn.

1:14:16Mine is not spring fed like yours. I don't have the river, but it's beautiful, right? I look out my back window, my bedroom window, I step on the porch. I'm like, this is incredible. I can't believe I, you know, I, I have worked so hard and gotten so lucky and earned these things that this is mine. But my adjoining neighbor has like three acres that are effectively worthless and they live in a very small old trailer, but they have the same view. They have my view, right? Like they look at my property. And so like, that was one of the things that I, I, like I reminded myself of during the pandemic, you know, like we were spending all this time together alone.

1:14:55We had security and I didn't have to worry about money. Unlike a lot of people, I felt very blessed, you know, walking around. And then I'd go, you know, so much of even this is superfluous. Like, again, my next door neighbor or this person, this person, they have the same thing that I have at a much more excess. Like I could fall many levels, like many rungs down the ladder and still be good. And when you realize that, it gives you, I think, some security and confidence to be like, nah, I don't really want to do that. Or I don't care about that. I'm not going to get in that game. The ability to say no is a very powerful thing.

1:15:34Yeah, you think you need, you know, people. I remember I interviewed this guy who's this tech entrepreneur. And he talks about how all these people are working very, very hard trying to pull off very difficult things to get fuck you money. Yeah. And he's like, I've met a lot of people who are doing that, who have done it. And he was like, I have not heard very many people say, fuck you. So you think that getting this thing is going to make you more independent, more secure, more aggressive in the risk that you take, in the stands that you take, just all the things that you do. But in fact, the exact opposite happens.

1:16:14usually becoming successful makes you more conservative not just politically but just like now you have it and you know how hard it was to get it and so you don't want to lose it and so you so you end up working harder you end up doing more then you have this you have this stake and you're like what's got to grow at this percentage a year or you know if i if i don't spend it, then in 20 years, it'll be worth, you know, X, right? And so you think that getting this stuff is going to get you to this place that's different. And in fact, it just gets you to a place that's more like the insecure place that you started at.

1:16:53Yeah. I mean, I guess I'm just hearing a lot of people being like, oh, easy for you to say, right? Keeping up with inflation ain't nothing right and sure um so i guess i'm i'm just trying to like i remember someone told me like you know your money doesn't have to grow right it just shouldn't run out right like i mean it should and you should be savvy but there is also though i think and again these are sort of privileged champagne problems but people get to a place where they feel like getting it isn't enough then they have to grow it and double it, triple it or whatever. And so it creates this immense amount of insecurity.

1:17:33The whole point of financial success should be that you don't think about money that much. Right, yeah. And then you talk to people who have extraordinary amounts of money and all they talk about is money and their whole life still revolves around money. Do they, where are they on the Forbes list? You know, how are their investments doing? Can they afford this new fancy thing or whatever? And there's a poverty in that. Yeah, I think I was unlearning that myself. Yeah. You know, always needing more, the next thrill, the next high, as opposed to just really, you know, whittling it, reducing it all down to just the bare essence of being, you know, and, and being happy with that, being content with that.

1:18:29Because there's a lot of people who have a lot who are very discontent. And then there are people who have very little who are also discontent. Like they're not recognizing what they do have, you know, cause it, cause obviously flash over all media, it's like you, you need more and more and more and more, you know, entourage is the goal. versus what stories we tell ourselves is so important. And you know about this from media literacy. It's like you have to be careful what you consume, what you watch, what it tells you about yourself. Yeah. This is very true as parents, right? So like you follow these accounts that give you a sense of how other parents are doing or what their life looks like.

1:19:20And it's not realistic at all. I've never seen a single sort of parenting mom or dad Instagram account where the house wasn't spotless. I've never seen one where the kids are crying and screaming and yelling, where the parents are stressed, where they haven't shot. It looks perfect. And that's not what it looks like. And it's definitely not what my house looks like. Shit. Now you tell me. You have this idea of who are you trying to impress? What image are you trying to keep up? If you can get in this sort of algorithmic loop that's making you feel inadequate and shitty all the time, and this can happen to you if you're a 12-year-old girl, or it can happen to you if you're a 50-year-old man who thinks that the truck that you or I drive is cool, and then you see somebody else driving an insert fancy car, and you go, well, I don't have that.

1:20:13did I make the wrong decision? Am I not, do I not have what they, it's not good for the brain to, like keeping up with the Jones is a very natural thing. So you have to be very diligent about what Joneses you let in your life. Yeah, and that's tough with the algorithms who are telling you what Joneses you want in your life.

1:20:40Thanks so much for listening. then if you could rate this podcast and leave a review on iTunes, that would mean so much to us and it would really help the show. We appreciate it. I'll see you next episode.

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