Alexi Pappas on Ditching Goals and Her Strategy For Maximizing Mentorship

0:00I'm recording this on a Monday, and Monday is our grocery store day in our family. I usually pick my kids up from school and we go over to Whole Foods, get all our groceries for the week. Although here very shortly, we're going to go over there to get our Thanksgiving turkey because they've got a bunch of great options. Turkeys start at$149 a pound if you have Prime with organic birds at$299 a pound. And they only carry no antibiotic ever turkeys that will bring quality to your table at a great price. Whole Foods has great everyday prices on all your Thanksgiving essentials, whether you celebrate with a massive family or just a few close friends.

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1:22Welcome to the Daily Stoic Podcast, where each weekday we bring you a meditation inspired by the ancient Stoics, a short passage of ancient wisdom designed to help you find strength and insight here in everyday life. And on Wednesdays, we talk to some of our fellow students of ancient philosophy, well-known and obscure, fascinating and powerful. With them, we discuss the strategies and habits that have helped them become who they are and also to find peace and wisdom in their lives.

2:21yesterday and then I had a nice swim at Barton Springs this morning. A little foggy today, a little misty, but I love it when the water is warmer than it is outside. I don't love it when it's freezing outside. So it's like 50 today, but got in, swam about a mile. It's basically my only time to work out today. I've got two talks I'm giving. Actually, I got to go give a virtual talk in 25 minutes. Yesterday before my podcast, it looked like I had these giant bags under my eyes because of the goggles. And this morning I put Vaseline under them before I put them on, but they're still there. I got to figure out like, what is the half-life of the goggle marks that I put on?

3:00And then I can't swim beforehand. So hopefully the people that I'm doing this virtual talk to don't think I am burning the midnight oil. I actually went to bed at a very reasonable time last night. One of the things we did as part of the Daily Stoke New Year New Challenge was like pick a bedtime this year. And I've been pretty good about it. My wife and I have been going to bed earlier. So I feel good. I look like I haven't been sleeping. Anyways, so I'm recording this intro before I run to that, but I wanted to get a nice swim in. And that leads me to today's guest, sort of two connections to today's guest.

3:38My friend, Rich Roll, is a mutual acquaintance. He's spoken very highly of her. And I also know she's in town a lot, like in not in Austin. People are in Austin all the time, but she's in Bastrop all the time because she is friends with Richard Linklater, the movie director, who is sort of the OG in Bastrop County. I'm talking about Alexi Pappas. She is an Olympic athlete, an actress, a filmmaker. She set the national record for the 10K in Greece. You know, as that LeBron James phrase goes, more than an athlete. She's done a bunch of different stuff and she's talked about that journey along the way.

4:28She wrote a book called Bravy, Chasing Dreams, Befriending Pain, and other big ideas. In this lovely episode of the podcast, we talked about running, enjoying the process, dreams, and then mentorship. That's what brings her out here. As I said, she's close to the Linklater's. I don't know if I can talk about it yet, so I can't say it in the intro, but she is adapting one of my all-time favorite books into a movie, so I'm very excited about that. And then it turns out we may have run at some of the same meets because we're roughly the same age and grew up in Northern California together. I'm really excited about this episode.

5:11I think you're going to like it. I think this is one of the best ones we've done in a while. You can listen to Alexi's podcast, Mentor Buffet, which is produced by Rich's company. I'm hopefully going to go on that next time. I'm in Los Angeles. And we just missed each other. She was here while I was out of town. she did text me that so far her house had made it through the la fires you know when we did that daily stoke email about how you know these fires aren't these just like news events that are happening to people you don't know but they're happening to people i know they're happening to people that you have heard of through this podcast thankfully alexi and rich's places were both okay but it must have been a very scary time for them.

6:00And it's a crazy time in the world. Anyways, I got to go do this virtual talk. And so I'll let you just get into this wonderful episode of the Daily Stoic Podcast with Alexi Pappas. You can follow her on Instagram at Alexi Pappas and do check out the Mentor Buffet Podcast and her book, Bravey.

6:22There's a hike that I do with my, what feel like my cousins, even though we're not born cousins. And I just have like a deep memory of talking about what they were going to do for their, what birthday was it? I think it was when they stopped being teenagers. That's a big one, right? What are the big birthdays when you're 18? 16, 18, 21. 20 also, because you're not a teenager. I think that's actually very existential. And then the rest after or whatever, I'm talking about like, what are young people? what are their turning points i think it was their 20th that they're most nervous yeah because you're in your 20s which is terrifying for people right i remember i went for a walk in lost pines park with my kid i guess i only had one then but i i was like you know let's not do anything this weekend let's just go for a hike we went through a hike and that's where i had the idea for the series that i'm doing and i'm which i've been working on for five years like just on a random hike, not thinking about work there, I had just a random breakthrough that's like consumed me for the last five years.

7:26Like, so I think about that park all the time. It's one of my favorite places. I was like, I want to talk about the park, but I want to ask you about your breakthroughs because I'm genuinely curious. Do you have like a question in the back of your mind that you're trying to answer? And then you just keep it in mind as you're living your life and then let it come to you. Like when you had that epiphany, did it come out of nowhere that you would even pursue a project at all? Or did you have the idea that I'm trying to think of something and then it came to you? Usually what happens is you're finishing a project, like a book or whatever.

7:57And so for the first time, you're not totally consumed with the present of the overwhelming task. And you are just starting to get the brainpower to consider the future. And then I find it just appears. But I do a microcosm of that every day, which I usually right in the mornings. And then in the afternoons or early evenings, that's when I either run, bike or swim. And usually something will pop into my head pertaining to what I just worked on that will set me up for tomorrow. So like the physical creative practice are like very linked. I don't run in that park as much anymore now that I have kids because it's like a drive and it's like, I can't be like, I'm going to go work out for three hours.

8:42I just don't have that kind of time. So, but when I did, I've had so many ideas in that park. It's like, I love it. I haven't stayed in any of the cabins. I keep trying to convince my kids that we should do that, but they're like, we're going to go somewhere. We should go somewhere. Have you seen them? They were built out of like stones in the thirties. They're crazy. I didn't know you could stay in them. Yeah. They built like, so the WPA worked on that park. There's a really cool swimming pool in there. And then there's all these like little lodges, a little like single family cabins that you can rent.

9:10That's really, really cool. That's something I wish I did more of in college because you could rent the cabins at the Dartmouth Grant for like$10 a night for, I think, as many people as you wanted to have there. And I was like, why did we not do that more? It's like amazing. I mean, we were in college, too, so we weren't necessarily like, let's leave and go to the woods. But I wish I had done more of that. When did you graduate from high school? High school, 2008. I think we may have overlapped at some cross-country meets because I grew up in Sacramento and I was class of 2005. Because we would drive to the Bay Area all the time.

9:44And what school? Granite Bay. Oh, I know Granite Bay. Yeah. Wow, that's crazy. I think I can picture the uniform. It's green. Like the font. Mm-hmm. I know the font. That's weird, yeah. Because that's what you don't know. What high school were you at? Bishop O'Dowd in Oakland. And so we would have overlapped not at a traditional— But like the joint meet. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I'm forgetting what they're all called. The invitational type meets. It's interesting because I only ran my freshman and sophomore year of high school. And I got - But that's the only time we would have - That's what I'm saying.

10:12Yeah. And then I got kicked off my team. But I was - I did too. You did? Many times. Yeah. What did you do? I didn't do anything. I would say I didn't do anything. It was like a silly form of rebellion. But in retrospect, it seems insane to me that you would just let ninth and 10th graders be like, go run for 50 minutes and come back. Yeah. We would just like go swimming. Yeah. Or go play video games or we would go. I remember one time we just went to a grocery store and bought a cake and then just ate a sheet cake. Yeah. You know, like just do nonsense. But that's. So we just get in trouble. And they should have allowed that because that's that kind of mischief is really good for kids, I think.

10:52And adults. Yes. Like harmless mischief. Eating a cake. Like who cares? Sure. Yeah. My other friends were doing drugs or something. Yeah. But yeah, we were just not training at all. I never took it seriously. Like I love running now and I did not take it seriously for one minute. The idea that I could be good at this thing and I should try to be my best at it never occurred to me. And what was occurring to you? I don't know. Some adult was telling me what to do. And I think in retrospect, it's a very common thing, which is you are afraid of earnestly doing anything because then if you don't succeed, then it doesn't feel bad.

11:31I was afraid of that. That's called sandbagging. Oh, that's what sandbagging is. Yes. Sandbagging is just the idea that you create in the present, like an excuse for your later self to lean on for when you don't succeed. And I had a teammate in Mammoth who would be such a, he was a disciplined athlete, never went out, did everything properly. And then the week of a race would just like get drunk and then like not necessarily run well and then be like, it's because I drink. And it was like, what is that? Because I was never, I'm not a sandbagger. Yeah, clearly. Clearly or not. I'm a gamer. Like I'm a gamer.

12:11Like I will show up beyond what I need to do. But what'd you get kicked off for? Oh, I got kicked off my high school cross country and track team because I was a multi-sport athlete and interdisciplinary in that I did theater and student government. And there was a bully on my team. I can firmly say she was a bully, but I forgive her and know that high school is hard and everything is fine. But at the time, well, actually, it wasn't her. I'm not going to blame her. She was a teenager. The coaches eventually made a rule that you couldn't miss any practices for anything else. And I was doing soccer and student government.

12:50And I got kicked off my team for missing a practice to, like, decorate the school hallway for Spirit Week once because I was vice president. And I got kicked off because I had soccer practice and I was still I was like number two in California with not going to every practice. And I soccer was what I loved running. I didn't love. Right. But I was good at and I was like, I can I can do this in this context, but I was never just going to run at that age. And so I got kicked off twice, both years. Were they trying to send a message or do you think the coach was just like threatened by you or something?

13:20The coach, well, other people got kicked off too, but I was like the significant player in the teams, like not having the, one of the top athletes there anymore. So it wasn't just me. The coach was an alcoholic and this was like before social media. And I remember I was so mad and I was like, somebody listen, like this feels, it felt sexist actually too, because there were guys that were multi-sport athletes and they were super celebrated for doing both. and for me it was like I was a bad kid and I think it ended up being a blessing because I went through puberty super normally right you know because it screws with women's development more than men's I think being a endurance athlete right I mean I I just think that those like 16 17 18 19 year old years for women in particular it's when you're going that's when we go through puberty for them I think for the most part and our bones it's like you're building the foundation of your house.

14:19And so if there's anything compromising that, which it doesn't, it's not that running compromises it, but overtraining does. So I didn't do that. And I was happy little soccer player, you know, theater and student government, but it was devastating to get kicked off a team for something that felt unfair. Yeah. Did your parents back you up? So I, just my dad, I grew up with just my dad and he was okay. My dad was never going to interfere. My dad is very conflict averse. Okay. So he did take a meeting with me and like the Dean, I think, but they didn't do anything about it. And we didn't take it beyond that.

14:58Like my dad wasn't ever going to take control of my life for me. Yeah. So yeah. And so compared to most like athlete parents. Yeah, no, he's was not that. And I think he knew that I might find it again in my own time and with happiness. He was such a good parent in that he honored what was expanding me at the time. Like he knew better than to say, Hey, Alexi, you could quit soccer and all these other things and just run. Cause we all knew that was an option. And everybody thought it was crazy for not doing that. Cause I was so fast and everyone's like, she'll never run again. And then look what happened.

15:35Like it, It doesn't. He gave you space to figure it out. He knew that if I wasn't happy or like feeling expanded, like, I don't know what words you use for that. Sure. That it wouldn't matter. It wouldn't amount to anything anyway. Like to feel in jail to. If you hated it, you wouldn't succeed at it. So he gave you space to come back around to it. That's very wisdom filled of him. Then when I came back to it, I was terrible. I was so bad. Just rusty? No, out of shape. I was like in soccer shape. So I couldn't run four miles without walking. And I was on the Dartmouth team because they recruited based on times.

16:14But I was so bad. I was like the worst in the whole league. And then my dad was like, just keep trying. And so he also didn't really give me the option to quit. Right. Gently by saying, just keep trying. That's funny. Yeah. He let you kind of quit the first time, but then not the second time. Yeah. But I didn't feel like I quit. I feel I was kicked off. I was kicked off the team. And he just didn't make me compromise my values and what made me happy for a performance incentive. Right. It's funny, the memories that we have of stuff, too, because like I have a vivid memory. Like I was clearly acting out.

16:52Right. Like that's why I was not taking it seriously. And I remember talking to a friend from high school, like not that long ago. And I was like, why didn't any of the coaches just say you're clearly acting out? You should try. You could really make a thing of this. Right. And my memory is that that didn't happen. And he was like, what are you talking about? He's like, they said that to you so many times. So like they saw it and tried to communicate to me what I was doing. And I just could not hear it. And I didn't even remember hearing it. That's so interesting. Do you remember hearing anything at all?

17:27No, I just remember them yelling at me. You know what? Like I just remember them being like authoritarian or, you know, no fun. You remember the feeling of like discipline, not like the good intention underneath it, maybe. Yeah, exactly. Which is interesting because, yeah, it's like a perfume. Like you could smell, it smelled a certain way. It like felt a certain way and it didn't really matter. Well, it's kind of helped me as a parent too, because you're like, I'm like, why couldn't they have just said these words? And he's like, no, no, no, they definitely said those words. They definitely said it.

17:57So how does it help you now? Well, because you think like, oh, all you have to do is say this thing. It's like that coach thing where it's like, no one will listen unless they know how much you care. Like, like clearly there was some wall between us that was not allowing the message to get through. And so it doesn't it's like it doesn't matter what you say. It matters what people hear and it matters what you make them feel. And so it's just like your kids are going to go through things and you're not going to lecture them into understanding what they need to understand. It's more of an emotional thing and it's an energy thing.

18:31And like, it sounds like what your dad did really well was kind of indirectly guide you. And you felt like you were making the decisions as opposed to being forced to do anything or, you know, like he gave you, you felt like you were in control. It sounds like. For sure. I mean, he had values, right? And he didn't have very many rules at all, which was like chaotic and made my house the best place to go to after parties in high school. But he did sometimes have opinions. And so when he does have opinions, they actually carry weight and he's repetitive, right? Like we would eat the same dinners, like every, whatever.

19:09He had like five things he cooked, but he also had like five things he would come back to saying. So the just keep trying. I've heard him say that so many times. That's great. In addition to other things, my dad, he's also been really good in adulthood in helping me realize what I really need and don't need in making decisions that can sometimes be quite confusing. He can help me really simplify. I can share more if you want, but we don't have to go down that path. No, no. What do you mean? I'm curious. Well, like, okay, like after I graduated from Oregon and knew I was going to try to chase this Olympic dream, I had two opportunities of how to pursue it.

19:50One was like a financial contract with a new company that was embracing me as like an artist and a runner, which I am both. And they even said, if you don't perform on running, you can still make little commercials for us. So it was like, wow, it's like a really great financial situation, creative, but it provided no coaching, no teammates, no nothing. So I would have to figure all that out. Right. Then the other was provided all the intangibles, coaching team and the best in the world. But it was a club where some support would be given to me, but it would be given straight to my rent and health insurance.

20:26So I wouldn't actually have any, I wouldn't save any money. And in fact, I would still have to buy food and things like that. And my dad asks really good questions. And I was like, I don't know what to do. I have college loans. I'm, you know, all this stuff. And I'm 21. And he's like, well, do you want to make ads for a living? And I was like, well, no. And he was like, okay. He's like, what do you want to do? And I was like, I want to go to the Olympics. And he's like, well, which one is going to take you to the Olympics? And I was like, well, probably the world-class coaches and athletes and enough to survive in Eugene, Oregon.

20:58Right. And so it made it very simple once he asked me those questions of, well, do you want what that is? You know? And I talked to him when I'm making decisions like that. And he usually asks me the right questions. So he doesn't give the answers, but he does ask really good questions.

21:22We just took our kids to an outdoor performance at The Nutcracker. They had a snow cone and then they went insane in the car ride home. And one of the things I try to remind myself when that's happening is that I don't control my kids' behavior, especially when they're too far gone like that, but I do control how I respond, right? That's, stoicism, but it's also what Dr. Becky talks about. Dr. Becky is a clinical psychologist and a best-selling author, and she founded Good Inside, which is there to give parents practical, actionable tools for handling those everyday challenges with confidence.

21:57My wife introduced me to Dr. Becky's books. I love them. I've recommended them a million times. I've had her on the podcast. And as it happens, Dr. Becky is hosting two live Q &A events for Good Inside members. I am one of them. She signed me up for it about a year and a half ago. I've loved it ever since. On December 1st, you can join Dr. Becky for her How Not to Raise Assholes event, which is about avoiding entitlement and raising kind, empathetic kids. And on December 15th, she's hosting her How Not to Lose It over the Holidays event, which I'm sure we could all use. As I said, I'm a big fan of Dr.

22:34Becky. She's been a great influence for me as a parent and just as a human being. and daily Stoic listeners can join for 15 % off with code STOIC15. You just got to head over to goodinside.com to catch the events. Thanks to Toyota Trucks for sponsoring this episode. When I bought my ranch in 2015 out here in Bastro County, I drove my car about halfway down the dirt road that we live on, thought this isn't going to work, stopped, parked it, walked the rest of the way home, borrowed my wife's car, drove into Austin and bought a truck. What I bought was a Toyota Tacoma. And this truck wasn't just transportation getting me to and from my house.

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23:56Because you never know when you'll end up on a Toyota adventure detour. And of course, this is stoicism, too, because every detour, every obstacle is an opportunity. But it's helpful if you can handle the difficulty inherent in that. If you've got the resilience and the right companion to make it wherever the road takes you. Discover your uncharted territory. Learn more at toyota.com slash trucks slash adventure dash detours.

24:27In my discipline book, I talk about Queen Elizabeth a lot. And she is so fascinating because the queen is this person of immense influence, but has essentially no power. Right. Like the queen has no actual authority. She's like the figure king, too. But in the constitutional monarchy, it's a figurehead, but they get briefed by the prime minister and they are associated with the outcomes. So it's this fascinating thing where they're both powerless and powerful. and what it was said and I think one of her grandchildren confirmed it too was that she gets really she had to perfect the art over 70 years of just asking questions that made it clear the problem with the stupid thing that you were about to do or that raised the issue that would allow you to come around and see it differently and that that's like I think parents think that they have power but they don't and so they try you know what I mean they try to use like do this, don't do that.

25:24It's totally ineffectual. But the actual influence you have is in terms of like, like what your dad is doing, which is like, well, what about this? Or like figuring out what your kid wants to do and telling them how they can do it is very different than you telling your kid what to do. Because, you know, there's that resistance. If you're both trying to go in the same direction, then it's a very different interaction and relationship. But like people are bad at that. Even I've had this with editors on my books, like, how can you give me notes if you don't know what I'm trying to do? Like you haven't asked me enough questions for you to give me the feedback that you are giving me.

26:07And the reason you haven't asked is that you fundamentally misunderstand our relationship, which is you think I'm giving you the book you want, as opposed to you buying the book that I want from me. Do you know what I mean? So if you can If you figure out what the person wants, then you can be aligned. But if you have the ego or the lack of curiosity, it's going to be an adversarial relationship. And to get to what you just said, it requires stepping back a few steps, right? Because if you just look at feedback on a book granularly, it can feel like you get to in the weeds with like, why does this feel off to me?

26:48You know, right? Because you're receiving this feedback. and if you're on the surface level with it, you're just like, I don't know if I agree. But if you take two steps back, you're like, I don't know if this person understands my goal. And if you take another step back, I don't know if this person subscribes to the relationship where they're working with me for me to be myself, right? And to really get at, and then that might connect you with like a value of yours to work in those capacities, right? Totally. And I think, yeah, I've been thinking a lot about people who get steered off course because they're only at the surface level of the problem or their fear, addressing a surface level fear instead of addressing the real fear, which may be a moot point, actually.

27:29Like there may not be a fear underneath at all. Yeah. The Seneca line is if you don't know what port you're sailing towards, no wind is favorable. Oh, that's cool. I like the visual of it too. Yes. But I think that like parents, people, collaborators, bosses, employees, whatever, athletes, coaches, if you're not on the same page about where you're trying to go, you're going to have a lot of conflict and you're not going to be that effective. But if you can step back and go, where are we trying to go? Are we in agreement about where we're trying to go? Can we get an agreement about where we're trying to go?

27:59Once you get clarity about that, then you can know, hey, this feedback is actually not important or this thing that everyone else is focused on doesn't matter. Like, where are we trying to go if you don't have a good answer to that question? So that's why I think so interesting. Your dad was like, what do you want to do? because comparing and contrasting two options in a vacuum is you're just gonna be like well what pays more what's more socially accepted what seems more fun but like if you have a goal or a direction you're trying to go then a lot of that's going to turn out to be irrelevant what really matters is like does it get you closer to where you're trying to go or not right and it's a good way also to conflict resolve as you're saying with the queen because it's kind of a way to lead from behind is to use a process where you start by sharing the shared goal that everyone can agree on.

28:52Right. And then go to the like obvious problem that like maybe people aren't aware of, but like just observing it. And then the solution feels like we're all on the same page because like we all want this, but this is happening. Therefore, whatever, you know, it's cool. because, well, that feels like a life with like less resistance too. Yeah, of course. Which, sorry, I sometimes I get these thoughts and I was just like, I've been trying to live a life more now where I'm like, there are things wrong, but I'm trying to like make sure something's actually wrong. What do you mean something's wrong?

29:31Like you mean like in the world and personally, what do you mean? No, personally. There's a lot going on in the world. I'm talking about like, I used to whatever, live a life where I was chasing the singular goal. And when you enter a life where you're not, you're more moving toward feelings and values and there's less needs with that, with like a pursuit. And, but along that journey, there's a lot of like bumping up against things and learning and then like trying something and then pivoting. And that can feel really disorienting. Unlike the thing where you know where you're going, if where you're going is actually just, I want to move toward growth or curiosity instead of toward like one piece, one thing.

30:13It's much easier, although the goal is hard. It's much easier to be like, I want to be in the Olympics. I want to be the highest paid person in this. I want to be the chief executive of that. Like it's easier to have what the Stokes would call sort of externals as your goals or your metrics, right? Because it's clear and clarifying. The problem is you don't actually control whether you get that thing or not, right? And in the more artistic life, I feel like I have no goals. Working hard to have no goals. That doesn't mean I don't work really hard and I'm not trying to get better, but I am no longer interested in, you know, I want this to debut at number one.

30:53or I want to this advance to be larger than that advance. I'm not trying to win the thing. I'm trying to do the thing. And that's a little more ambiguous and harder to define. So it's more of a day-to-day challenge than the like, yeah, the Olympics are like a thing you get selected for. There's like a hierarchy and then there's a clear winner and loser. But it can also break your heart because someone, you know, like if you think the New York Times bestseller list is a meritocracy and so all you have to do is these things. You're gonna wake up one morning having, if you're lucky enough, done those things and then find out you were unlucky enough to not get that thing.

31:31And that's gonna break your heart or piss you off. Yes. So how do you think about having no goals then? I think that having goals requires me and everybody to be more in your nurture than your nature because you have to construct a path towards something highly specific. That is often a human invented thing, like a bestselling book or the Olympics. And so you're really resisting. I've been using this word a lot with myself. The things that compel you, which is unexpected stuff. And you're controlling everything. So you're in your nurture. And I think that I felt I was very much in my nurture chasing the Olympics.

32:16What do you mean my nurture? nurture versus nature nurture like i'm creating the self and i'm crafting i'm like i'm literally growing muscles you know what i mean i'm napping myself you're like a specialized machine yes and i'm the experiment and i'm doing it to myself right and then i think when you get away from those external goals or your goal list which is what you asked about yeah you have the opportunity to explore more of your nature which is the way you would move the way you take in the world if there is no danger or no need to funnel yourself into something so highly specific that it would result in an external accomplishment that you've decided ahead of time.

32:58So to have no goals, I think, is exciting. And I think it's like the rest of my life. You're more like Alice in Wonderland or something, and you don't expect it all to be good. And so, yeah, my North Star now is like more of a feeling and values. And if an external, it is always attached to external things, right? You're always doing tasks that are associated with it. But if something gets taken away from me, there's always another way to pursue my values and my goals and my North Star. Yeah. Maybe it's like the difference between focusing on inputs versus outputs. So like, are you focused on what you're putting into the thing or is it all about what you get to take out of the thing?

33:40Right. So Cheryl Strayed once made this distinction in, uh, if you're a dear sugar, someone was talking about like books and she was like, you're confusing writing with publishing or publishing with writing. Like they were focused on publishing books and she's like, the job is being a writer. So I think about like the, the verb verse noun, you know? So it's like to what goal is, it doesn't mean you're just like sitting around and you don't care. It's like, no, I'm just doing the thing. Yeah. I'm creating rather than trying to like achieve. But that's what I mean by nothing's wrong is that if you're in the process and you're waking up and living the days that you say you want to live, whatever, then there is nothing wrong.

34:24Like if a problem comes up as a result of being on that path, that's not a problem with a capital P. It's like a problem that that is, of course, because it's life. Right. Yeah. I use a lot of like metaphors as it makes more sense to me. but I feel like having no goals is like being an adventurer where you're wearing a big backpack that's full of all your experiences and all your knowledge, your curiosity, your values, whatever, right? And you're marching around and there's other people, but like you're on your own journey and you expect there to be like awesome flowers and cool animals, but you also expect there to be rain and you expect wild animals.

35:00And that to me feels like what life is Yeah. Now. I remember I was hurrying my eight-year-old somewhere. Like it was like a Saturday and I was like, come on, this is like taking forever. And he was like, dad, we've got nothing to do and nowhere to be. Oh, wow. And I was like, oh yeah. First off, it's Saturday. But second, like I can do whatever I want. I don't have a boss. What do we need to accomplish? There's nothing we need to check off the list. And yeah, there's something about like, if you're like, I got to finish this thing and get it out or I have to win at this thing or whatever, then you're not able to just be in the day-to-dayness of like, I tweaked this and I improved this and I had fun and I learned something.

35:38Like, yeah, you're confusing the inputs and the outputs. Yeah. So, okay. The inputs and the outputs are, yeah, I think that makes sense is you're saying people who fixate on the outputs are never, don't realize that like most of your life is input world anyway. So like just acknowledging that is helpful. Well, the stoic distinction would be like you control the inputs, but not the output. So you're focusing on the thing you're most vulnerable about. Like what I learned, and I've been working a lot on this, is that like my first handful of books, like I did not have a good time doing. It was painful because it's hard.

36:12It's a lot of work and it's vexing and you're struggling and it's not as good as you want it to be. And you're fighting with your publisher about, it was just like a brutal process. And I realized that if the process was not fun, than I was only doing it to get the rewards of the outcome, which is not in your control. So it's like, if you're only competing because you love winning, you have to win, right? And winning is not actually up to you because you could be against someone who's better and stronger and faster than you. You could be up against someone who cheats. The Olympics could get canceled.

36:48You know, there's so many things that could prevent you from getting the thing. So your means to an end strategy is inherently vulnerable and inherently dependent on something other than you. But if you can get to a point where you enjoy doing the thing and if the outcome goes your way, that's extra. That's where you want to be. That's where I – I'm not – I would say – I've said this before, but I would say I went from like 90-10 to like 10-90 or whatever. Like I flipped it. Like before I was like 90 % outcome oriented and 10 % process. And I would say I'm like 90 % input, 10 % output. Output.

37:26Sometimes when I meet teenage girls, I meet a lot of them and I can tell in their eyes when they really like, they trust me, but I can tell if something is like, just, they're not going to subscribe to it. And the enjoy the journey is really difficult to tell teenagers. It's easier to enjoy the journey after you've won also, or you have any kind of external success because either you feel good or you realize it doesn't make you feel good. Yeah. Well, do you know what I tell them then to assume that it's going to be successful, that it's going to be what they want it to be? And how would they embrace the now in that case?

38:05Because if you knew you would get what you wanted, you would be more present. Yeah. You wouldn't hate this thing so much. No. And that is usually a harbinger of like the good result you want anyway, because it's like a, because it's a inevitability is like a real energy. Well, I think people think, hey, if I'm not focused on outcomes, I'm not going to get the outcome. But the irony is what you're actually doing is taking your eye off the ball. Like golf to me is the best metaphor. When you jerk your head up to look at where the ball's going, you shank it. the whole point is you're supposed to have a perfect fully present swing and only after the ball has left the club and you have finished your follow-through that you raise your head and look oh interesting like you're not it's like when you're trying to do it really well deliberately and trying to see if you did it well that's when you fuck it up right i was thinking is that the same in baseball because like i played a little bit is it i feel like you have to keep your eye on the ball but i guess once you swing you keep your eye on the ball but if you're if you're like if you're thinking about how you're going to run to first base yeah yeah i get it that's where you're fucking it up yeah yeah that makes sense you'll trip over yourself or whatever yeah well you it's like you still have to hit it first like yeah hit it yeah then like you're creating like a traffic jam or something yeah well people get stuck all the time not being in like the chapter they're in and not realizing like what train they're on and or what track they're on rather And I think people get the most stuck when they're supposed to switch the train track.

39:39They know better and they don't switch like from fitness to health. Like I see people waste so much time. Like their goal is fitness when they're healthy. But the minute you realize you're injured, you have to get on the track of I'm trying to be healthy over my overfit. But the ability to be like, what am I supposed to be doing right now? Just do that thing. Yeah. Like I am in writing mode, not publishing and marketing and PR mode. Like just do that thing. And then when you finish this task, move on to the next task. Yeah. That's like what chop wood, carry water is also about. Right. It's everything.

40:14Yeah. Easy to say, not so easy to do. Well, but it's, I think it's easy to do once you're doing it. It just, cause it feels better. Cause you feel. I don't know if it was easy to do, everyone would do it. It's like. Yeah. Why don't people do it? I think one of the reasons you focus on outputs instead of inputs is that outputs give you social validation and there's financial things. It's also measurable, right? Like the day-to-day-ness of being in the thing, just like working on the project, is hard to know whether you're making progress or not. But if you're just like, well, how many copies did I sell?

40:50Or, you know, like when you're focusing on that stuff, it's just, it's more measurable and quantifiable. So you, it's the day-to-day process of it that my thing is like, did I make a positive contribution to the thing today? So I try to like way, way, way lower the stakes. Yeah. You're just asking for progress. Yes. Or positive contribution. Right. But yeah, I don't know. It's, it is tough though. It's tough to be goalless also because people give you credit for talking about your goals and they give you credit for achieving the goals. No one's like, you really fulfilled your creative vision on this project because that's a totally internal thing that only you know about.

41:31Right. You did what you set out to do. Yeah. That reminds me. There was a review in Variety for my first movie that was really mean about my body because I was really, you know, I was like in Olympic shape. And there was like, this would never happen today because I think this man. This wasn't like 20 years ago. yeah but it was like he said it was really difficult to look at my flat chest and freakishly gnarled feet and it was so crazy because i was like imagine writing it but i was like oh my god i my body made this man uncomfortable and i was like but that's the same discomfort because this is to your point about he didn't understand my goal and i was like oh he felt uncomfortable but the character feels uncomfortable in her body too and i was like oh he felt and it's not about the way it looks.

42:19It's that I was like, oh, I was like, rad. He felt uncomfortable. And I was like, this movie is a little bit about discomfort. Okay. I love that. One of my favorite things in reviews is when someone says negatively exactly what you set out to do. That's what I mean. And, and, but as if it's a, as if it's a fault, that's exactly what happened. And I was like, oh my God. I was like, he, thank you. You know what I mean? He was like, I just felt so uncomfortable. And like, this is a girl in a movie who is trying to be romantic with a boy, but she has this Olympic, whatever, this kind of, you know, not a typically hot body, I guess, in someone's terms of it, you know?

42:58So yeah, you're right. Yeah. I get this all the time. People be like, all Ryan is doing is taking the ideas from the Stoics and connecting them with stories from history. And I'd be like, bro, that's like the log line of the project that I set out to do. Yeah, that's awesome. And you're saying it negative. And what they're saying is this was not for me. And what I was saying is this is not for you. These are for these people over here. But what they don't realize is that what they're actually admitting is that it was not for them. You know, but part of the way you have to insulate, I think when you decide to focus on what you were trying to accomplish and your vision and you have clarity about what that is, as opposed to just vaguely sort of following something wherever it goes, is that when you have that clarity, then you can read a negative review and take it as positive.

43:46Because it confirmed like he thought he was hurting your feelings or condemning the work, but you're like, you actually just the title of your review should have been mission accomplished. you know, it's interesting about what you're saying is that you're basically saying that you need to know your own goal before you go out in the world and like receive other people's analysis of your goal. But earlier in our conversation, we were saying that we don't have goals anymore. And so I think we do have goals. It's just, it's different kind of goal. Well, there's not external goals there. So it's like, if I had an internal goal, if I had a creative vision, then I'm either going to achieve that vision or not.

44:24But if my goal is, to have the number one movie. So that's the thing. You do have goals. You have internal goals now. Goals isn't the right word though. It's like I have things I'm trying to do as opposed to contests I'm trying to win. Yeah. And like I'm focusing my energy on the parts of it that are up to me versus the parts that are not up to me. And I have clarity about what I'm trying to accomplish, which is maybe different than what I'm hoping to achieve. That makes sense. That's the distinction, I think. Like, I mean, there's something so nice about sports and that they're very binary, you know?

45:00They're very binary. And like, if someone is on the team, like I realized this recently, like if someone's on a team, you assume that they were like good enough to be there, right? They had to hit a certain standard or the coach picked them. They did tryouts and you assume that like you're aligned in your goals and it's equitable and all this stuff. And it's simple with performance, as you said. it's also simple with your orientation with other people in that world because you're either good at the sport or not and it's relatively clear yeah and i think in the non-sports world it's become very clear to me that like it's not as simple like the evaluation is not as simple and so when you step into a room you know there's not i don't know it can be complicated you're either in the NBA or you're not.

45:48That's what I mean. And to be a professional filmmaker or artist or influencer or creative, it's a much vaguer thing. And there's a lot of people pretending and then a lot of people aspiring. And so it's harder to know where you sit. And so you have to become much more internally focused and internally driven about like what I'm trying to do, what success is for me. And then what race you're running. The difference between like In a cross-country race or the Olympics, it's like you all started at the same time and you're all finishing at the same finish line and you're all after the same three medal spots or whatever, right?

46:23But if you're just out for a run on a Thursday, somebody started before you, somebody started after you, somebody's recovering from an injury, someone's doing it for fun, somebody's trying to lose weight. We're all running for different reasons, doing different things, and you've got to have a much stronger sense of the race that you're running. or you're going to find yourself competing with this random stranger who you happen to have aligned with for two seconds. But you're doing you're playing almost different sports. Yeah. And I think that it takes time alone to like hear those thoughts for yourself.

46:59And I think that's been that's like a big thing we I need to do more of is like spend more time alone to be more and more in touch and realign, realign, realign and recalibrate. because sometimes my alignment will change, but I need to like notice that and then recalibrate almost like, you know, like a Pokemon becoming, you know, like I need to evolve. Yeah, sometimes I feel like I have to have moments where I'm like, oh, I'm no longer this or I no longer care about these things or my values have evolved. But if I don't take the time to like see the Pokemon evolve, I can be in my default settings in thought a lot.

47:35I have an eight year old. So I hear a lot about Pokemon evolution. So this metaphor is funny to me. That's awesome. I was going to be like, I have a boyfriend. He's really into Pokemon cards too. So people don't always outgrow it. It's hard for me with my kids because like when I was in high school, Pokemon was very not cool. Oh, wow. So it's like you have kids and then like these things stick around in ways that you didn't like. I'm sure it was like I was into heavy metal as a kid, like 80s heavy metal. And so my parents were probably like, what the fuck is this? This is not for people like this is not for us.

48:08you know and so now with my kids i'm like why do we have to go to these comic book stores and like why you know like they're into things that like i have preconceived notions of from what they culturally were when i was a kid yeah one of the teenagers in the bookstore the other day was like listening to nickelback oh no because it's post ironic yes to him it's just music yes that's like at this point 20 years old or whatever yes and to me it's like no this is a not cool band yes no it's post ironic yes which is my favorite word to have learned from the gen z yeah you know what that is right yeah it's just it is what it is at this point it is it's become but it had to do its whole cycle it's so funny there's so much post irony right now and it maybe it's giving us a greater appreciation for things that we didn't like although i don't like nickelback i'll just say it no but you realize oh yeah this is different you perceived things based on the lens that was true for you at that time or was culturally prevalent, but it's not based on any, it's probably not some sort of blind sound test or where you're, you know what I mean?

49:15If like, if you, if someone could give you a Nickelback song that you've never heard before and you were perceiving it, not knowing it was Nickelback, might you be like, it's not terrible. Right, you're saying it's context, like has informed so much of how we see things, the context. It's the same way with like, even words like i like it's so i think now that i'm meeting more people who like did not grow up with me right you meet people who's like it's a whole different so the way that they learned certain words meant certain things and it can cause so much example well uh an example could be the word odd like someone if someone says i find it odd yeah to me that's very like mean sounding adjacent to like bad or weird in a bad way versus versus eccentric or yeah odd could be like totally benign and so i think it's just like certain words and i'm such a i was like a trained poet right in college like words i think they carry so much weight and yet they maybe they don't have any weight at all because if it can mean if it can mean one thing to you know what i mean yes it's so confusing i was talking to someone from california the other day and they They were like, what's this?

50:26They were complaining about the word riz, which is short from charisma. Gen Z says riz. They do? That's what you'd say if someone is just like charisma, has good vibes. It's just like, that person has riz. People flock to them. And I was like, what do you think rad is short for? You think rad is a fucking word? That's funny. They're like, they're just taking words and cutting them in half. It's like, yeah, that's what people do. That's right. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, that's what we do.

51:09I want to talk about mentors. Let's talk about mentors. So you're thinking, though, not just of mentors, but the mentors of people's mentors. It's interesting to me how you're chasing, I guess in sports, they call it a coaching tree. Do you know that term? Is a coaching tree just like that there's a lineage, like a tradition that they come out of? Yeah. Like, for instance, I write about this in my last book. I think Greg Popovich has the greatest coaching tree in sports. Like his assistants have gone on to do the most things. Yes. Yes. Yes. Steve Kerr is one of. So and Steve Kerr has his own coaching tree at this point.

51:44Yes. Right. So it's not just like, hey, this person helped this person, but like that you really evaluate the totality of someone's career and impact, not just like on what they've done, but what they've allowed other people to do. Yeah. And that's very true with all sports, right? Like you can, running, you know, it's interesting because for individual sports, looking at coaching trees makes it feel less like these individuals are just asteroids floating free because they really do come from, like I can name like two different coaches, for example, where, yeah, it's a tree. It's going to be like, it's a, we already have the metaphor, stop trying to find another one.

52:20and the interest in mentorship for me started as a necessity so it's like it comes from a real place of like i lost my mom very young and in a confusing way and whatever she took her own life and i was like all right i don't have this one person and it would have been very easy and simple to say that to create laws like life isn't fair i don't have access to this mystery this abundant mystery that is a mom, which is still an abundant mystery to me. Although Tina is like the closest thing I have to a mom. Oh, that's beautiful. Yeah. Like a surrogate parent. Yeah. She's like the coolest and grew up in the Bay area.

53:00And now that's why I spend lots of time out here. Yeah. She's like a truly like a mom figure to me. But so I had a choice to say, I don't get to have a mom and I get to have nothing else or I get to have everything else. Sure. You know? And so mentors to me became, you know, the word to me, it can be limiting. To me, it means anyone that you learn from. A mentor is. Yeah. I think a person becomes a mentor to you, not even if they're not aware of it. Right. Someone. No, it's so dumb. People think it's this like official thing, you know, like in apprenticeships used to be like, you were basically sold as a work slave to a, like a blacksmith or, you know, like a whatever.

53:45Right. Yeah. Or like to become a Navy captain, you would be like attached as a cabin boy. And you would wear it was this kind of process where like it was so horrible that like they had to legally codify it so you couldn't escape once you started. But the best relationships, mentor relationships today are very informal and they evolve over time. It's not like, will you be my mentor? We're going to talk on the phone three times a week at 2 p.m. Like it's not how it goes. And they're also not your mentor unless you actually learn from them. So, right. Like if someone says they're your mentor, even if it's a mentor program, but you don't absorb anything, are they your mentor?

54:24Like, no, they're your mentor, just like a, like their job title. They're like a counselor or something. Yeah. And mentor is not a job title. It's like, it's an exchange. It's a relationship that comes from, I think, feeling that you're changed by somebody, that you're impacted. So I think it really is about you're not changed unless you really are too, right? Like you, it has to really feel true for you. And so I've been very interested in this subject and I just realized that I want yummy, yummy knowledge. Like I want to learn and I can't live like a million lives. And so I'm always, I think the idea of having this mentor buffet podcast was like, now I get the opportunity to talk to people and learn from who they learned from.

55:10Right. And by that, I am learning about them. Sure. But it's a little less direct. There's a little like nostalgia and gratitude in it, which feels fun. Have you read Mark's Relief's Meditations? I read some of it in a class where I didn't fully read it, which is so embarrassing. So book one of Meditations is just called Debts and Lessons. And it's just, this is his private journal. And it just takes, it's almost 10 % of the book. but he just lists all the things he learned from the most influential people in his life. Really? It's beautiful. I'll give you one. I have my own edition of it. But like he, so Mark's to realize when you hear emperor, you're like, oh, your dad must have been the emperor.

55:49And what happened actually is there were five Roman emperors or I guess three in a row that don't have a male heir. So they each have to adopt. So it creates this precedent where each emperor is adopting who they think is a worthy successor. And in the Roman tradition, adoption often happened late in life. You could get adopted in your 40s or 50s into a family who needed to carry on the tradition. That's awesome. Seneca's brother is in the Bible, but his name isn't Seneca, which is like the family name, because he is adopted by this family and he changes his name to be them. I feel like you're the living example of knowledge is like power.

56:30And I mean that you know so much. And I was just observing and I was like, and you're able to use all this knowledge to like contextualize and understand and then have your own thoughts. And it's just really cool. It's really cool to just hear you say things because I'm like, oh, he knows so much. I know some about some things. But anyways, the point I want to. Sorry. I was just like, I was like, you know, a lot of things. So there's this chain where Hadrian is not the best dude, but he sees something in this kid, this kid who would become Mark Surrealist. But he's too young, so he can't—Hadrian knows that he doesn't have much time left.

57:07So he wants this kid to be emperor, but he needs someone to help him. Yes, yes, I know this, yes. So he adopts this older man named Antoninus Pius, who's like the dominant Roman politician of that time, on the condition that he adopts Marx to realize. And so the most beautiful passage in the beginning of meditation, it's like, if you watch Game of Thrones, you know, as soon as Hadrian dies, Antoninus just kills Marcus. And then, like, that's how it should go. And instead, Antoninus, who was supposed to live for like a couple years, rules for the next two decades. And he mentors Marcus, who becomes effectively his co-emperor or his COO, and sets this kid up to become like this philosopher king.

57:52But there is this beautiful, it's what, he does another one later, but there's, I mean, look, it's almost three full pages of everything he learns from this man who they have no blood relation to. And you could almost see as like enemies, like whose bloodline is going to make it as one would have cared about then. And instead, it's this sort of remarkable, like surrogate parental relation. He refers to him as his adopted father. And I just, I think that's so beautiful. Like, and the things that he learned, it's very clearly not things that they talked about. Like everything. He's not like, I remember the time he told me to ever do this.

58:37It's things he learned by simply watching him exist. Yes. Which is so much of, right. Because it's also interesting to know what people learn and how they learn. Because some people do learn best by being told like a coach type relationship, right? But a lot of people do learn simply by being around people. And that's where there's a big gap in maybe access to people, right? And so that's another reason why I'm interested in it is because can we at least give some of the je ne sais quoi of what it felt like? Can we still share that without having being in the room with all these incredible mentors?

59:15Maybe. Like, we'll see. I think so. And it seems like this is an abundant perspective to have on the world. Yeah, it would be a shame if you could only learn from people you met and spent time in person with. Yeah, that's almost maddening. And if you're trying to, you know, help people feel more like present, it takes you basically away from where you are to feel like you need to go find all this stuff. So, yeah. And maybe it also goes back to what you are saying about there's a lot we can't control, like about the outcomes. Right. And a lot of what I think I'm seeing these people that I'm talking to and what their mentors are showing them, a lot of it is not changing what they do.

59:59It's changing how they think. Yes. You know, and I think that that's where we can really help people because a lot of times we actually can't change the outcome or even the situation, right, that we're in the present. But to see it differently is like a whole new universe. It's like, you know, it's like a, oh my God, like I've been, we probably shouldn't nerd out about this right now, but I've been writing, I'm writing an adaptation of a bestselling book into a movie and I'm trying to like capture in the movie, like almost like a different perspective on like the present for various reasons. but I really think there's a whole other universe like in what's happening right now, like with just how you see it.

1:00:39And I think that some of this mentorship stuff is about not just changing your life, but changing how you see your life. Well, the stoic idea is that every situation, this is from Epictetus, is every situation has two handles, one that will bear weight and one that won't. And so what handle are you gonna grab the situation by? And I think what mentors often can help you do, whether you just won or you just experience what you think is a humiliating failure. They can be like, I went through that and I thought what you thought at first, and then I've come to understand this. And they can give you that.

1:01:13It's like, you'll probably come around to that understanding eventually. Yeah. But maybe it doesn't need to take 10 years. Okay. So what is it to bear weight? Is it to feel? He just means it'll hold like, because it's a handle, right? So it's like one, you can pick it up and the other, it'll break. oh, it'll hold weight. Oh my God. A bear weight. Oh, I get it. The approach will bear weight. It's like one's the right handle and one's the wrong handle. And we often grab by the wrong handle because we don't know any better. Right. So, and that just makes me think like if we, that just goes back to the thing I was saying about nothing's wrong of like, okay, if, and things are wrong, but I mean with how we feel about situations.

1:01:53So sometimes there's bad pain and like you need to get out of a situation. I think that we also need to know the difference between like sensations and threats and things. But if it's a sensation, if something feels off, right, which is maybe the wrong handle, some of what this mentorship stuff can do is help us find the right handle, right? Yes. And what I was going to ask you is, do you think then that part of our role in our own lives is to be more aware when something feels off that isn't actually a threat? Like something where you're like, this should feel like there should be a different way to see this.

1:02:29And then that's when we should either reach for a different perspective or like search for one within us. Yeah. And then also have someone you can run shit by. Right. Do you have that? Yeah. So my mentor is this guy, Robert Greene, who wrote The 48 Laws of Power and Mastery. He was this great writer. I mean, he is. I'm going to call him on my drive home today because I haven't talked to him in a while. And I was his research assistant. And so I learned not just like how to do all this stuff, but then I sort of learned just like how to be a pro, you know, like how the craft and the life works. And so, yeah, I run a lot of stuff by him.

1:03:06You know what I want, though? I want a sponsor. I'm not like in 12-step, but I would like a sponsor. And what does that mean to you? Like someone, just like someone you call before you do shit, you know? I want that too. Yes. I want that too because I feel I'm having trouble making certain decisions. and it can't just be my dad. Yeah. In recovery, you're like, hey, is this a sober decision or an addict decision? Oh my God, I want this so badly. There's obviously a healthier decision and a not healthy decision. And it's not quite in the veering into like, oh, you have a problem with this substance or this thing.

1:03:40But it's like, I really could use someone who's just like, yeah, have you thought about this? And do you mean for like across the board? Yeah, it's like life, yeah. Oh my God, I love this so much. And that's not something that you can ask of like even a therapist because that person isn't actually even meant to help you know what to do. They're supposed to help you understand yourself. But, you know, it's like neutrality and whatnot. Mentors are, I think, more often than not, like more successful than you. That's like there tends to be a professional or a context. Right. But like in 12 step, it's like, no, this person is just more sober than you.

1:04:18Like they could be a manual laborer and you could be the CEO of a powerful company, but they are better than – they are further along the path than you in this domain. I was going to say they're a step beyond you in a way. Yes. And in that context, it is in that way. And they kind of don't care about any of your professional shit. Which is good and important so that you take this one seriously regardless of the other stuff, right? And that sort of that that feels. Yeah, because well, some of what good mentorship does is help you become less confused and yeah, know what to do. But I think become less confused and have more access to like yourself.

1:04:59Wow. I want one of those, too. Well, if I find one, I'll let you know. Yeah, because that would be that would be so cool, because like someone is just going to respond to this and be like, that's called a friend. Like, that's just called a friend or like that. But it's not. It's different than friendship. You know what I mean? I mean, I call my friends for these things, but tell me how you think it's different than friendship. Friendship has like a social component where you have fun together. This is just a like hurt people helping hurt people or something. You know what I mean? Do you imagine it's an equitable exchange or is it?

1:05:33No, I think about this with mentorships. There is a reciprocity in mentorships, but mostly you don't pay your mentor back. you pay it forward. Yes, that's right. So I think it's like this person is helping you and they're getting you to a place and then you have to be that to someone else. I think there's a reciprocity more in friendship that would not be in this hypothetical thing I'm describing. Yeah. What would this kind of mentorship help you with most? I think it would just help you be a fucking person, which is hard. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Because they know more than you in this case.

1:06:08Like, are you talking about, yeah. Yeah. Okay. They have wisdom. Yes. Yeah. Right. It's an exchange of wisdom. And perspective and all that. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I want one of those things too. Those things. I want one of those dynamics in my life. Me too. I mean, it can be very disappointing too when you outgrow a mentor. Yeah. Like, because I was thinking - Or just in one domain, you're like, oh, I can't ask you about this stuff anymore. Yeah. You want to go check out some books in the bookstore? Yeah. And we can talk about this more because I have some books I want to show you. Thanks so much for listening.

1:06:41If you could rate this podcast and leave a review on iTunes, that would mean so much to us and it would really help the show. We appreciate it and I'll see you next episode.

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