Bert Kreischer Has a Stoicism Problem

0:00Ryan Holiday: Shopping at Whole Foods is one of the things I do in our family. Like the grocery shopping is my job. So I was glad to be able to do that even on vacation. And then, you know, being here in Hawaii, it was the same Whole Foods experience we're thinking about. But then also a bunch of regional stuff, too, that they only have at this Whole Foods. We love shopping at Whole Foods because there's always new flavors and foods to choose from whichever Whole Foods you are like, whichever Whole Foods you happen to be at. So save on regional flavors at Whole Foods Market, and maybe I'll see you at the Whole Foods in Austin sometime.

0:34Ryan Holiday: Three, four times a day, I reach over and I grab my wife's phone and I check something. Not social media. I check the Shopify app because Shopify is how I see how the Painted Porch and the Daily Stoic are doing. We've been using Shopify for almost 10 years now. It's great. And we're not the only ones using it. Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses and brands all over the world. They do 10 % of the e-commerce in the U.S., from household names to Gymshark and Allbirds to little brands just getting started and little things in between like Daily Stoic. Everything is all in one place, making your life easier and your business operations smoother.

1:17Ryan Holiday: And if you get stuck, Shopify is always around to share advice with their award-winning 24-7 customer service, which we have used many times at Daily Stoic and with the Painted Porch. It's time to turn those what-ifs in to sales with Shopify today. Sign up for your$1 per month trial today at Shopify.com slash Stoic. Go to Shopify.com slash Stoic. Shopify.com slash Stoic. From GEICO Subconscious News, I'm Tammy Racing Thoughts. Tonight, you just left for work and had a non-specific feeling that something was happening to your place and it wasn't good. Dan? Exactly, Tammy. It could be smoke damage, theft, or just too much caffeine, but you can't stop thinking about it.

2:01But with renter's insurance through GEICO, your stuff is covered, so you don't have to worry. And that's great, because the weekend is coming up and it's chock full of social obligations that are ready to fill that void.

2:10Ryan Holiday: Oh boy, will they, Dan? It feels good to worry less. It feels good to GEICO. Welcome to the Daily Stoic Podcast, designed to help bring those four key stoic virtues, courage, discipline, justice, and wisdom into the real world. Hey, it's Ryan. Welcome to another episode of the Daily Stoic Podcast. We survived the snowpocalypse. It was a long day, Sunday, long morning. All the schools were canceled. So I got a little bonus morning with the kids. And now I am back sitting in my office doing some writing. And it's funny, it occurred to me, I was sitting in this very office. I was in this very chair.

2:54Ryan Holiday: I don't remember exactly what I was working on. It's probably the wisdom book, maybe. Yeah, it would have been the wisdom book. This is the summer of 2024 and my phone rings. and it's Tom Segura, the comedian, who I know from when I did his podcast and he came out and did the Daily Stoic podcast, but he was calling me. And, you know, these days you don't get a lot of phone calls. Everyone texts or emails or whatever, but it's just calling out of the blue. So I answer and it's certainly not what I expected. He basically goes, hey, I'm sitting here with Bert Kreischer and he thinks stoicism sucks.

3:30Ryan Holiday: Let me play this. Oh, we getting him on? Hey, Ryan. Oh, come on. Hey, what up? Hey, I'm here with Will Compton and Bert Kreischer, and Bert is shitting all over stoicism and says that it's stupid and it's a dumb way to live, and he thinks it's just, you know, like. They're paraphrasing, Ryan, but they're real close. But we're close. So I was like, oh, then he's like, yeah, I see this stuff come up on my feed, and it's like fucking whatever, you know? It's just whatever. Marcus Aurelius, whatever. He said how the power of saying no is so stupid. You better say yes to everything. I just say yes to everything.

4:07He just answered the phone with a hard yes, right? He should have said, send a voicemail. He's a stoic. Ryan, can you just like, do you mind just giving like maybe a basic principle of stoicism that we can, you know, like hopefully show Bert why this is of value? That he's angry at the wrong thing. Yeah. I'm here. I'm like a Scientologist. I'm ready to be converted.

4:32Ryan Holiday: All right. Okay. So the basic idea of stoicism is that we don't control what happens in the world or around us, but we control how we respond to the world around us. It's pretty basic. I think it's pretty difficult to argue with. The idea is that instead of spending time stressing about what other people do, you focus on what you do. Instead of focusing on the mistakes you've made, you focus on how you're going to do better next time. And it's this idea that you try to go through the world around these sort of four main attributes, the sort of virtues of stoicism, again, I think are pretty hard to argue with.

5:10Ryan Holiday: It's courage, self-discipline, justice and wisdom. So that's the philosophy that has existed for, you know, 2000 plus years. some of the greatest, most powerful people in history have ascribed to it, and then all sorts of people who went through horrendous ordeals, whether they were thrown in prison for crimes they didn't commit or dealt with exile and death and all the shit that life can throw at a person. They sort of turned to this philosophy. So it's not these abstract ideas that you would study in this boring college class. It's supposed to be a framework for dealing with the difficulty of life.

5:49Okay. Okay, but what is your main... What's the opposite? I'm the opposite of that. What is your main issue against... Why are you rolling your eyes at Marcus Aurelius? What is that supposed to be? Okay. So just the names...

6:05Ryan Holiday: Is your familiarity with Marcus Aurelius, Bert, that he's the old guy that dies at the beginning of Gladiator? No. No, no, no, no. No, no, no, no. No, he thinks there's just another guy somewhere in that world that thought he was full of shit. Wasn't Marcus Aurelius like Caesar's kid or something? No, he was the emperor of Rome. Yeah, yeah, same, same. Same, same. Nepo baby, Nepo baby. You're never hundreds of years apart, but okay. Okay. So on the opposite, just the name Stoic is not how I live my life. Like, I'm not Stoic. So that was a surreal interruption. I usually don't answer my phone or have it on Do Not Disturb.

6:40Ryan Holiday: I'm certainly glad that I answered that one. I texted him after we followed up. I said, Stoicism is not some wallflower cynicism. it's perfectly wonderful to enjoy your success. The only problem is if you think it makes you special or that you could die without it. And he says, I wish I had said that. You are one smart motherfucker, which was nice. He says, so happy to have connected today despite my cynicism about stoicism. I'm kind of obsessed about it. And your name comes up on my tour bus sometimes. So we've gone back and forth. He's a nice guy. We connected when Mel Robbins was here because he had just had Mel Robbins on.

7:14Ryan Holiday: And anyways, he came out to do the podcast on Friday. And that's what I wanted to bring you today. I think he's a fascinating guy. I think he's a funny guy. And I just watched his new show on Netflix, Free Bert, which I thought was absolutely hilarious. And, you know, I wanted to see if his understanding of stoicism had changed since we last talked. And we really got into it. We had quite an in-depth conversation about Nero, as you'll hear in this episode. And he also told some insane stories that would only happen to Bert Kreischer. I think you're really going to like this episode. This is part one.

7:46Ryan Holiday: I'll bring you part two later in the week. If you don't know who Bert Kreischer is, you probably do. You're just maybe not putting a face to the name. He's a hilarious comedian. He takes his shirt off a lot. Although, as we talk about in the show, he does not want to be known for that. He's the host of Two Bears, One Cave with Tom Segura. When I did that podcast, Bert wasn't there. But you've probably seen some of their very viral clips. He was on the Tom Brady roast and many other things. He had a huge movie on Netflix called The Machine. which is based on one of his most infamous stories. And he tours arenas all over the world.

8:21Ryan Holiday: You can follow Burt on all platforms at Burt Kreischer and watch Free Burt on Netflix. Samantha and I watched all six episodes before they came out. And then it just debuted actually the day he was there. And we really enjoyed it. It was hilarious. And I loved this episode. And I think you will too.

8:41Ryan Holiday: Well, I love the show. I thought it was hilarious. You watched it? Yeah, I watched it all six. Yeah, all six. Well, this interview's over. Yeah. No, no, I thought it was funny because my kids just started at like a fancy school and I could relate. You run into, I mean, my kids are in college now, but you run into those dads that are like, you want to do coke? And you're like, no. Well, no one's asked me to do coke. I live in LA. But yeah, it kind of puts you back in being in school again because you're like, there's a hierarchy. It's weird with like the youngest parents. It's like, it's a weird.

9:12I remember when, do you remember the first time you heard the phrase, oh, it's all politics, like as a kid? Yeah, sure. It was like, for me, it was all-star baseball. And I was one of the best players at age seven. And I didn't make the all-star team. Okay. And then I was like, why didn't I make the all-star? I was one of the best players in the entire league. And they're like, it's politics. I was like, what? And they're like, well, the older kids, their dads are coaches. And they're going to make the all-star team because this is their last year in this league. So you're going to have another year.

9:41so you'll be on the all-star team next year. And I was like, well, this is so stupid. Yeah. And then I looked at my dad and I go, why don't you just become a coach so I can be on the all-star team? And he was like, okay.

9:51Ryan Holiday: It's a lot of that. Yeah. No, I thought it was good. I thought it was a great show. It's all that matters. Thank you. One of the themes I took from the show is like people not taking you seriously. Yeah. Does that feel real to you? A hundred percent. That's why I put it in. Yeah? Yeah. I mean, I'll be very candid and I understand that people may receive this the wrong way, but after listening to enough of your fucking book, I listen to it as I sleep, and I think I understand stoicism now. I think a lot of people blow me off because I take my shirt off, and they kind of maybe look past the fact that I'm like a really good storyteller, which is completely fine.

10:25Listen, there's a lot of people that only come because I take my shirt off. And I've had a really great career. I wasn't supposed to have any of this career, so I can't really crap. It's like someone saying, Jimmy Buffett sings Cheeseburger in Paradise. He's not a good musician. And you're like, hold on. he's got some bangers. Like you're, you're overlooking the catalog. Sure. And so, so yeah, but, but it is, it does, it does, uh, does sit with me sometimes when you're like, cause you'll read a comment, which I know is a stoic you're not supposed to do. Yeah. And it'll be like this guy, all he's, all he does is a fat alcoholic and takes his shirt off, which is, it's accurate.

10:58There's a little more, there's like, there should be a dot, dot, dot to that. But, uh, and then I, and I leaned in and when I, when I offered up the very intro to this, of the, of the tv show uh to the writers and producers is based off a real story that happened to me at a corporate i went to a corporate and i was like and they're like they're huge fans they're huge fucking fans i was like for real and they're like yeah hedge fund i was in vale they flew me out for veil it was 25 grand i'd fallen off a waterfall two days before and my wife's like baby you can't miss this show yeah 25 grand was like a game changer for us so i went out and i was like i I was like looking at them.

11:33I was like, I don't have anything in common with any dude in here. Yeah. And I was like, what do they like about me? And then I got up on stage and I ripped my shirt off and went bananas. And I started with my material. And one guy was like, hold on. I'm going to stop you right now before you get too far. Do the shirt one more time and tell the machine and then we're good. And I was like, huh? He was like, just do the shirt one more time and go right into the machine. That's what I told everyone about. So like, and then we're good. And then you'll come drink with us and just give us nicknames.

12:02And I was like, oh, okay. So I did it. Dance monkey. Yeah. But for 25 grand, you're shocked how hard this monkey dances. Yeah, yeah, I get it. And so then I did it. And then I drank with them. They eat pills. And they were like, they're just rich. They want to do coke. And I was paying pills because of my fall.

12:19Ryan Holiday: How did you fall off a waterfall? I feel like you jumped in. In a moment of non-stoicism. I love talking about stoicism. Yeah. Because I believe in the, and by the way, I am wildly ready to be turned on to stoicism. Okay. I'm wildly ready for it because I think I need it. I've listened to your book on repeat when I sleep every night. Every night. And I pick up at parts and I fall asleep at parts. And I kind of remember parts. I can't tell if it's Thomas Jefferson or George Washington. But I love The Boxer Slept. I love everything. Wait, what book? I have no idea, dude. Okay. Is it my voice? Ryan Holiday.

12:53Yeah, it's your voice. Okay, okay. So now that you're okay. So in a moment of non-stoicism, I was rappelling off a waterfall. for work, and it was the last episode of Trip Flip, right before I got fired from the Travel Channel. I always realize this is all gonna go away, even life, I think about that in the mornings when I wake up. But I always, I have a very fleeting feeling in life of like, I remember the last time, I remember when Birth to Conqueror was about to get, I knew it was canceled, and I got into a town car to go to a theme park in LA, and I remember getting in the town car going, enjoy this, this may be the very last town car you get in, because they're expensive.

13:29Sure. and I was rappelling off a waterfall, and I had a moment. I said, you've done a lot of really cool stuff for Travel Talent. This might be the last cool thing you do. And I was like, hey, man, take a minute. Take it in. And I turned, and I looked. I was like 210 feet up, and I overlooked this canyon in North Carolina, and I was like, this is beautiful. And I was like, let's have a moment, like just me and you, Bert, like just me and you, and I kind of started fucking around. And then I decided to swing out wide, and as I did, my foot hit some algae and I flipped upside down in the waterfall and I started getting waterboarded by the waterfall upside down.

14:04It's now hitting me in the face and it won't spin me back around. And I don't know. I have video of it. I don't know what happened if I, but I let go my backhand, let go. And I dropped like 25 feet onto a rock. And I thought I, I really thought I broke my back,

14:19Ryan Holiday: but I didn't. I was fine. But, uh, I mean, I'm not fine. It took me a while to recover. And then I was laying in a hospital bed. I told my wife and then she was like, well, you have that corporate in Vail. And I was like, baby, I fell off a waterfall. And she goes, hey, I love you. It's 25 grand. She's like, Aylan, I will meet you at the Denver airport. We'll get you to Vail. We'll get you in and out of the gig. And then we'll get you home. And I was like, all right. But that's, so like everything in the TV show is based off something in real life. And I just wanted to pull from like, you know, the thing I've drawn to about stoicism is, and I don't know if it's real or not.

14:54I don't know if you have to work on it. I don't know if it's forced. I don't know if you're a natural stoic or not. I don't know if you are what I am, which is a natural, like I'm a raw nerve. But the thing that I drew from that, or that I'd drawn towards it is, and I leaned into this, is like, I am a very sensitive person, and I do want to fit in. And I do want people to like me. And I know that that's not popular online. I know they call that something like a try hard. I go, okay, cool. But what am I supposed to do? Like, that's who I am. If I go to a party, and I don't know you, I'm going to introduce myself to you i know i'm not supposed to i know that we're supposed to stand in the fucking corner like we're all fucking bilber and joe rogan but you're not i know them that no one's them okay and so like i i like i am just me i'm bert yeah and so i tried to put as much of that in the show and show my kind of warts and all like yeah i would say everything up until when you're fiddling with

15:45Ryan Holiday: the uh the gear that you're not supposed to mess with it seems pretty stoic taking stock being present, appreciating the thing. That's all. What, what part of the story do you think is not stoic? When I started swinging out going like, let's have a little fun. Okay. I think, I think having fun counts too. Maybe the only non-stoic thing was be like, if you're screaming your head off while you're hanging upside down. I was, I was screaming my fucking head off. I was getting, by the way, it's the second time it had happened to me. And the first time I was only eight feet in the air. So when I let go, I was fine.

16:13And then I was just like, I didn't know how high I was. But yeah, I get confused by stoicism and I want to be it. But I felt like, I felt like at a period of time I was listening to guys who were getting beaten up online saying, yeah, I read a book about stoicism. That's what I am now. And then I was like, huh?

16:29Ryan Holiday: Cause that's how we got connected. I remember I was just sitting in my office one day and Tom called me and, and then, and he said, uh, I'm talking with Bert and he thinks stoicism is bullshit. And that that's, I think how we got connected. Okay. So I don't want to shit on him, but my assistant Kyle, who you might've met. And I'm just saying like, this is a perfect example. We were all sitting in the bus one time and he was homeschooled. And we were like, was that hard going to parties? He was like, no, I was the mysterious guy. And thank you. I love that you laughed. Cause we were like, Hey buddy, we all went to parties and we didn't know anybody, but we weren't.

17:02And he was like, no, man, I just stood in the corner. And I feel like that's what a stoic does is just sits in the corner and goes, but I don't know what there's, are they really?

17:10Ryan Holiday: I'm not sure there's any mysterious guys at parties in high school. Those are called creeps. Yeah. By the way, thank you, Kyle, for letting me share that. But like, I don't know if stoicism is something, if it's a thing you put on or how you authentically get there. I would love to authentically get there. I would love to not be at a party and someone say, for example, someone go, it's so funny. I love waterfalls. And then I would love to go. I have a great story about waterfalls. I fell off a waterfall in North Carolina. It was a great story, but I'm going to shut my fucking mouth because that's what a stoic does.

17:47And then, you know, it's so interesting. Tell me about what you like about waterfalls. It's a fucking waterfall.

17:52Ryan Holiday: It seems like you think being a stoic means being introverted and you're extroverted. So you're not stoic. Like, okay. So is it George Washington or Benjamin Franklin? George Washington is the one who's more interested in stoicism. Okay. There's some Franklin stuff too. But George Washington's very reserved and - So he doesn't let his anger get the best of him. Yes. Dude, if I get upset or if I get my feelings hurt, it's uncontrollable. Yeah. Oh, it's insane. Like, I'm trying to think of a good example recently where my feelings got hurt, but it's like, it overwhelms me. Yeah. And then you're like, well, shit, how do I get past that?

18:27Are there like things I can do every morning where I wake up and I go, here's the stoic workout, you know? And it's like, it's like, you know, journal about this, journal about that, because I'll do it. I want to get, I'll give you a perfect example. This is going to sound ridiculous today, but it sounds real the moment it happens. Tom and I did Christmas Day for Netflix and for NFL. And I fly home, I share Christmas dinner with my family. I wake up the next day and I'm really happy. It went well. Netflix is happy. It was a really great experience. And I had Christmas with my parents and I'm sitting on my recliner and I'm just going through the news.

19:01I'm not thinking. And I see my name and I go, oh, cool. I don't see what it is. And then it says, Burt Kreischer ruins Christmas day. Okay. Now I know George Washington would go, that has nothing to do with me. That has to do with this writer. Didn't have anything good to write about, about the game. The game wasn't that good and there wasn't much going on in the game and he needed to get clicks. So he used a famous guy who will get clicks and then used a good catchphrase. And then cherry picked comments, Terry picked comments, he did, from the post that were very targeted towards Burt. These are guys, the one guy called me Bart, and you're like, okay, that's a fan.

19:39Or a guy that was a fan. Burt called me, and like, either the guy's, either the writer's really smart, or he's actually a fucking idiot who was like, look at that, they don't even know how to spell his name, you know? Yeah, you take it personally. Ryan, I don't know if you know how this feels. It happens at the top of my head, and everything gets warm. And I go like, whoa. And it's a massive, like, I wouldn't say like an instant depression, but an instant anxiety of like, I'm going to be thinking about this for half the day. At least this ruined half the day. And my daughter, who I think Georgia, who my oldest, who probably would have a lot in common with you.

20:18She reads books with her friends where her friend will read one side of the page and she reads the other side of the page and they sit next to each other. That's what a reader she is. Okay. Creepiest thing. I'd rather walk in her fucking with three girls. But so she goes, hey, and she breaks it down. She goes, the guy needed clicks for his article and you clicked it. Now, granted, it's your name, but other people are going to go, oh, we ruined Christmas because he took his shirt off.

20:39Ryan Holiday: Also, he could be right in the sense that you may have ruined his Christmas. Like, he's not wrong. I'm like, I try to feel like maybe it did suck to that person. Yeah. And by the way, I think it probably sucked to a lot of families who at nine in the morning saw a shirtless fat guy, you know, drinking whiskey on a parking lot. But that was what I was hired to do. Yes. So I should detach from both of those. Yes. But instead I'm like, so I hear Georgia, the stoic. Yeah. Break it down. And then my youngest daughter, Isla, goes, Google his name. I went, what? She goes, Google his name. Find out his Instagram.

21:12So who he's friends with. Yeah. And I went, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, let's do that. And then she's like, yeah, you know what? I guarantee you he knows you and he has friends. And then I'm like, yeah. And then I go, that's not what a stoic does. Like George Washington to me wouldn't be like, how do I get Louis the fucking 13th number? You know?

21:33Ryan Holiday: As you know, AI is everywhere. You're probably using a handful of different AI tools in your life, you know, day to day now. But how many of us are stopping and asking, should I be asking this to AI? I think about that all the time. Do I want to give it my personal information? Do I want to upload this thing that I worked on that I own the copyright to? I don't know, right? Got work stuff, personal questions, late night thoughts, medical issues. We're sharing a lot with AI, maybe even more than we realized. And that's where DuckDuckGo comes in because they just built Duck.ai for folks who want to keep their conversations with AI tools private.

22:14Ryan Holiday: You go to Duck.ai and you can chat privately with the same AIs that you're already using, whether that's ChatGPT or Claude or whatever. and it protects your info from hackers, from scammers and data hungry companies. It's a win win. Plus, it's from DuckDuckGo, the company known for protecting your data, not collecting it. No signups, no subscriptions, no learning curve. Just visit Duck.ai and start chatting. If you want to use AI without giving up your privacy, visit Duck.ai slash stoic today. That's Duck.ai slash stoic, a private way to chat with AI from DuckDuckGo. where AI is always optional and private.

22:55Ryan Holiday: Well, here we are well into a new year, and it's worth taking some stock. Who do you want to be this year? What changes do you want to make? How could you be better? That's where today's sponsor comes in, and it's where something I have been doing myself now, I guess since college, which is working on myself with a therapist. And although I used to, when I lived in LA, drive an hour in traffic to sit down in someone's office for an hour, now I do it on the phone. I do it while I'm walking. I do it in the car. I do my therapy online. And BetterHelp is the world's largest online therapy platform.

23:34Ryan Holiday: And I'm not the only one. More than 6 million people have gotten help through BetterHelp. It's just easier to keep the appointment. It's less of an imposition. Cheaper. It's more efficient. and I honestly find it easier to just get into the stuff you're there to get into when I do it remotely. BetterHelp will match you with a therapist based on your preferences. You can easily switch at any time at no extra cost. You can click the link in the description below, or you can just go to betterhelp.com slash Daily Stoic to get 10 % off your first month of therapy.

24:11Ryan Holiday: it's funny in the show your two kids have kind of an angel devil uh relation like one's whispering uh let's rein it in and the other is egging you on oh yeah yeah which is which is very funny so okay i think a couple things here so number one we'd like to think that people just naturally are this or that right and if that was the case if george washington just never got upset or Mark Sturulus never got upset. They just, people said shit about him and they just didn't care. Then that's kind of like being tall, right? Like you don't get any credit for it. If you just, if it's not work, you don't get any credit for it, right?

24:46Ooh, ooh, ooh. Give me a second with that thought. You've said some things, you've said some quotes that are like badass. So yeah, if it really doesn't affect you, then you don't get credit for it. Like if someone yells to me, get out of that car, you black bastard. And I'm like, that's not accurate.

25:04Ryan Holiday: Yeah. It's not going to bother you because it's not, it's not accurate. It's so wildly inaccurate. That has nothing to do with you. So like that is a really, actually George Washington is a good example. It's funny that you brought him up. I was interviewing Ron Chernow who wrote a famous biography of, of Washington, but he also, he also wrote Hamilton. But he, he was saying that what's interesting about Washington is that Washington actually for the people that knew him had like a fiery temper. He was actually like, there's a famous story about Washington. One guy, I think it's Gouverneur Morris, Betts, another guy.

25:35Ryan Holiday: He goes, I'm going to walk up to George Washington, slap him on the back and say, hey, George, how's it going? And so he does this. And Washington gives him like such a death stare that the guy's like, I like he was like, I will never call him anything other than his excellency ever again. He's like right beneath the surface, a little bit fragile, a little bit sensitive, got a little bit of an ego. And so it's not that it's an act. It's that he's really having to work for it. Like he he is sensitive. He does get upset. He does lose his temper. He does worry about things. But he he understands, as I think you're saying in your examples, that that doesn't really work.

26:16Ryan Holiday: Like that's not good. That's what gets you into trouble. Like you can be the president of the United States and just fly off the handle. Like we're seeing the effects of what happened when that happens. Now, it gets you into trouble, right? It's not. And it's. So you're saying Donald Trump is not a stoic. What can I say? She's a pig. Oh, my God. So like, oh, that's a great. Yeah. So he realizes that to do this job, he has to work actively to not be that way. So I think I think everyone is struggling with it. And honestly, like most things, it might look easy. but like beneath the surface, the person's really working at it.

26:55Ryan Holiday: And so I just, we should understand that stoicism as a philosophy is a thing you are aspiring to be and you're working on and you're getting better. Like, I don't, I don't think I'm perfect at any of this stuff compared to who I was when I was 20. I'm way further down the road, but I'm not anywhere near where I would like to be. I read an article yesterday. I got a Google alert. I don't know how I saw it. And I was like, Like, oh, it seemed like from the headline, it seemed positive. And I was like, sweet. I could use a little pick me up right now. That's the worst. And I read it and it just is getting worse and worse and worse.

27:30Ryan Holiday: And I was like, so it was like, first off, I have to do what you're talking about, which is like, you know, try to think about where this person is coming from and why it doesn't matter. And then I have to go, OK, but like there's a reason these Google alerts go to the email address I don't check and why I tell myself not to click the thing. Like it's more about like the process and the boundaries you put up to protect yourself from your worst impulses, I think. I like that. Yeah. Like I deleted Google News off my phone. Yeah. Because it was just something I scrolled. Yeah. And then I saw like I don't enjoy seeing negative articles about my friends.

28:08Sure. But some comics love it. That's true. They love it. I have a friend who is so obsessed with the negative, the negative videos that other people put out about us. Yeah. That I wonder if he's my friend. Sure. Because he likes them so much. Yes. And then he told me he contacted one of the guys who made one about me. Yeah. And I was just like, wow, I would never do that to you. I would never like, like, I don't, I'm not that guy.

28:37Ryan Holiday: I'm not. my social media accounts are on my wife's phone. So like, I have to be like, Hey, can I borrow your phone? Cause otherwise I'll just check them a lot. And I, it's like, I'm never, when I do, I'm like, so glad I'm never glad that I spent 20 minutes on Instagram every once in a while, I'll need to message someone or, you know, there'll be a thing that I wanted to look at or whatever. And then sometimes, you know, you can't sleep. It's fun to scroll or whatever. But I'm, I'm like, if it's on my phone, I'll do it way more than is healthy. Uh, but if it, if it's, there's like just one step removed, then it's a, I'm a little, I'm a little protected from myself.

29:11I caught myself today. I was on Instagram and I was scrolling and then, and then it got me to threads or whatever. And it was something about, I don't know. So it was something that was innocuous. And as I'm scrolling threads, I see my picture come up and immediately, and what I do, what I'll do sometimes I'll, I'll scroll without glasses on readers so that I can't read it. But I see my picture and I immediately go to this defense mechanism, like, get out of here, get out of here. And it was a positive review. And then I was like, that's so tricky. We go, I want to read it. But then part of me goes, but if I read that and give it weight, I have to give as much weight to the negative one.

29:50Yeah.

29:51Ryan Holiday: It's funny. I think Hemingway was talking to Fitzgerald. Hold on, stop right there. I have a great question then. For real. Yes. For real. Yeah. Do you think Ernest Hemingway would have been a better writer if he had gotten more sleep. Probably. But doesn't that get to the id of the, and I'm using the word id not knowing what it means, but doesn't that get to the id of the artist? Maybe a little bit. There's a book in the bookstore. I'm going to give it to you. So F. Scott Fairchild wrote this book called The Crackup. I love F. Scott Fairchild. He wrote a book called The Crackup about blowing up his life.

30:21Ryan Holiday: It's the last thing he wrote. And you're watching one of the most talented people in the world squander their talent. drinking. I've watched, I've watched, I've watched people squander their talent. Yeah. And I've watched myself squander my talent. Sure. Like I've, I've, it's funny when as you're squandering things, you don't realize, you don't realize what you look like from the outside. Yeah. You like, like I remember a point everyone was calling me going, we're worried about you. And I was like, and I was just working so hard. It's, it's one of the things you talk about in the book that I've been listening to over and over again is that to pull back a little bit is the stoic way.

31:01Yeah. To not overwork. Restraint. Yeah. Is the stoic way. And, you know, Tom and I haven't talked about this and we're not, we're not, we don't talk about this publicly at all, but, you know, we've pulled back to bears.

31:13Ryan Holiday: Oh, yeah. Because. You don't do it as much? We do it when we want to. Yeah. Because what we were doing is, and by the way, we're not doing that for the fans and we're also doing that. We're taking less money. We're not. Yeah. We're saying to our ad sales team, don't sell against us because we were doing it, partly we were doing it for the fans, but we were really doing it because we were on a schedule. Yes. And that wasn't the way the show ever started. And that wasn't conducive to us having a good time. Yeah. And then when we said, when we're available, let's do it, we did two episodes and they were, we started giggling with each other again.

31:49Sure. And when I heard you say that about that rear admiral or the one guy that was the fighter pilot in World War II and then he was like a bioengineer or something or a doctor and then, you know, and then he was the reason we were World War II or whatever. And he was like, oh, he was just burning it at both ends. Yeah. When you burn it at both ends, you're not serving anybody.

32:08Ryan Holiday: Yes. It weirdly takes almost more discipline to walk away. Like I used to listen to Marc Maron's podcast, which I loved. I know you had like a little tiff with him or whatever. Oh, no, no, no. But I think to walk away from something that like not because you're like an athlete and you can't do it anymore, you got cut or whatever. Like nobody does that. Like nobody just goes like, I'm good. Like everyone talks about fuck you money. There's the line. And then nobody ever says fuck you. Like because you always want more and it feels irresponsible not to keep going. But like to be like, I'm going to do less is like actually a pretty.

32:42Ryan Holiday: it's both a kind of a baller thing if you think about it but also it takes like more discipline than staying on the grueling schedule well the fear for me i mean i can only speak about me and i can just for anyone listening who's like what happened mark and burt i'll just be very quick so that everyone's clear uh mark was talking shit about these arena comics who get drunk and don't do anything on stage and they suck and it's just a money grab and and by the way i had mark on the podcast he wasn't talking about me but it sounded a lot like he was. This is why it's bad to listen to what people are saying, because you interpret it you know.

33:15And then I was like, I don't get drunk on stage. Like, I know everyone thinks I'm hammered the whole time. I am a very responsible comic. I have been drunk on stage, yes. But if I'm doing an arena, I'm stone sober. I'll have a drink when I tell the machine. But what's crazy is, the title was Mark Merritt talks about Bert Kreischer. He never said my name. So that was the beef. And then it turns out he was talking about another comic. He called me. But that's neither here nor there. Walking away. Walking away. it's not about the money. It is about money. There's a money aspect to it. But for the most part, it's like, am I letting down the fans?

33:46And I know that by putting out a lesser product, and I have been doing that at times, definitely on Two Bears, definitely on BirdCast. I wouldn't say so much on Something's Burning for whatever reason. And definitely not in stand-up. For whatever reason, I've always been very adamant if I say something very funny in my podcast, I pull it out so I use it in stand-up. Stand-up's always been a standalone thing for me. It's my, it's my real thing. I always go, let me just take it. It's like when you're too tired to take batting practice and you're no longer helping your swing.

34:14Ryan Holiday: Yeah. You're just taking cuts and you're like, it's, I'm not learning. And I had to say to everyone, I'm working too hard. Tom and I had a conversation Christmas Eve about two bears and our schedules. I had a conversation with my team about birdcast. I was like, I can't just do it every week. I mean, I want to do it when I want to do it. and when I'm excited to do it. Because then it'll be good and then people will like it. But it is a thing about like, what if I get out of the rotation? What if I hop off the merry-go-round for one run? Everyone's on the merry-go-round. They might be drunk. They might be garbage.

34:50All the great podcasts, History Hyenas, Matt and Shane's Secret Podcast, Andrew Schultz, Joe Rogan, you. There's so many great podcasts out there. But if I hop off the merry-go-round for one lap, are people going to remember to let me back on? What if there's not a horse available when it comes back around? Right. And so that's the risk you take from doing less. Yeah. And you just got to trust that they'll be there, I guess.

35:14Ryan Holiday: Yeah. And having some idea of what enough is, the problem is that you always move that number. Of course. Yeah. I remember getting an offer for my enough, getting like an, here's an offer. We were in our old house. Our old house was like 1 ,700 square feet. I'm not just, I'm saying how big it was. It wasn't a huge house. Yeah. For two kids, me and my wife. And that was after a renovation. And by the way, we thought it was the fucking best house in the world. Still is, but I still have that house. And I remember getting my enough offer, and I put it on the table for the girls. We're good. Yeah.

35:47And then I blew through that money. I blew through that money, and I was like, it's not enough. And then you're like, okay, it's only half. You don't see that it's half. And then you don't see that a lot of that's got, you're already in debt. And then you're like, oh, shit. So, yeah, it's tough. You always move that goalpost.

36:02Ryan Holiday: Yeah. And walking away from money is scary. And then also walking away from attention is scary. And being wanted is scary. It's all keeps you. Especially if you're me. Like I'm a FOMO guy. I was the kid that if a slumber party, if I woke up last at a slumber party, I would be angry. I would be hurt. I would be hurt that they didn't wake me up. Like the old let him sleep. I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, no. Wake me up when you start cooking. Like I want to be there for all of it. I want to see. That's my fear of death is just FOMO. What's going to happen after? No. No, that I'm not going to be there.

36:34Ryan Holiday: No, that's what I mean. All this stuff you're going to miss out on. Yeah, what do I wait? Like I said to Tom one time, we were a little drunk, and it was early in the morning, and we were doing a signing, and neither of us wanted to be there. It was like a big Poroso signing, and we've been traveling like crazy, and they made us a cocktail. And I'm talking loosely, and he was talking about Kim Jong-un and Vladimir Putin. And he's like, these are the type of lunatics that'll just end the world. And I was like, I'd do that. Like if I could, like if I could, if I could just be like, I have cancer, I'm dying, but I can end the world.

37:05I'd end the world and be like, that's it. No one lives. That's it. He goes, what about your kids? I go, yeah, yeah. I want them to go with me. Don't wouldn't end that love. And he was like, I, by the way, the look on Tom's face was like, you sound like a lunatic. Yeah, of course. But I think I am a little bit of a lunatic. Sure. I think you got to be a little bit of a lunatic as an artist.

37:22Ryan Holiday: Yeah. Well, that goes to the point. Like if you weren't a lunatic and you were easily satisfied, you'd have been satisfied and stopped. So there's kind of this, like, a normal person wins a Super Bowl, and then it's like, fuck it, I'm going to go out on top. But, like, you can't stop. Do you sit? Because I think you're, like, I was driving out here, I go, this makes sense. Like, everything starts tracking. Yeah. Like, I had a hard time understanding who you were, because I couldn't wrap my head around all of it, right? So, like, I was like, Marcus Aurelius, like, why are we still talking about him, right?

37:57I was like, and he has a bookstore in Austin. It's not in Austin.

38:00Ryan Holiday: No, no, we're outside of town. Okay, this makes so much more sense. As we're driving here, I went, okay. Now I'm starting to get this person. But a guy with a bookstore in Austin is very different. There's a pretentiousness to that. There is like, I'm the Austin guy. I'm the Austin smart guy. Because Austin right now is this weird eclectic place where all the gurus are headed to kind of get your chakra. And, you know, it's like the best drum circle guy lives here now. You know, and he's like. What? Well, you know, that's what I mean. that's like Austin. Do you know the best drum circle guy? Is that a real thing or no?

38:30No, I did meet a wild drum circle guy in New York the other day. Okay. Yeah. And that's why I said that. Okay. Okay. We did a commercial together.

38:37Ryan Holiday: Got it.

38:45Ryan Holiday: Today's sponsor is Chime, the fee-free banking app changing the way people bank. Chime isn't just another banking app. They unlock smarter banking for everyday people with products like MyPay, giving you access to up to$500 of your paycheck anytime. It can help you get paid two days early with their direct deposit. There's no overdraft fees, minimum balance fees, or monthly fees. And plus, Chime makes your everyday spending work harder by delivering real rewards and financial progress. And they just launched the Chime card. It's a cashback card that helps you build credit with your own money. And this is the kind of thing I wish was around when I was younger.

39:23Ryan Holiday: seems like a great way to build credit, which is intimidating, but as you know, very, very important. Chime is not just smarter banking. It's the most rewarding way to bank. Join the millions who are already banking free for free. And it takes just a few minutes to sign up. You head over to chime.com slash stoic. That's chime.com slash stoic. Chime is a financial technology company, not a bank. Banking services, a secured Chime Visa credit card, and MyPay line of credit provided by the Bancor Bank N.A. or Stride Bank N.A. MyPay eligibility requirements apply, and credit limit ranges$20 to$500.

39:51Optional services and products may have fees or charges. See chime.com slash fees info. Advertised annual percentage yield with chime plus status only. Otherwise, 1.00 % APY applies. No min balance required. Chime card on time payment history may have a positive impact on your credit score. Results may vary. See chime.com for details and applicable terms.

40:02Ryan Holiday: So I told you I was at this Airbnb here in Maui on this trip we took and oh man, the mattresses were not good. I did not sleep well. The kids did not sleep well. I wish that they had Helix mattresses. If you've ever slept on a Helix, you will know why so many people love them. Basically, you take this Helix sleep quiz that matches you with the perfect mattress based on your personal preferences and sleep needs. We've got the midnight mattress at our house. It's, you know, medium firmness, not too firm, not too soft. And that's probably why it is their top selling model. Helix is the most awarded mattress brand, tested and reviewed by experts like Forbes and Wired.

40:40Ryan Holiday: They've got free shipping, seamless delivery, and the whole process is super simple. They deliver the mattress right to your door with free shipping in the U.S. And you can rest easy with the Happy With Helix guarantee that ensures seamless returns and exchanges. Risk-free, customer-first experience. The Helix guarantee is designed to ensure that you're completely satisfied with your new mattress. It includes a 120-night sleep trial and limited lifetime warranty. Just go to helixsleep.com slash stoic for 27 % off. that's helixsleep.com slash stoic for 27 % off make sure you enter our show name at checkout so they can know we sent you helixsleep.com slash stoic so but like and then when i drove out here i went oh this is different this is the thing i used to fantasize about when i was on travel channel and my life was a little out of control and my my dreams were attached to my future yeah I would fantasize about like, what if I just had like a, what if I lived in a regular town with regular people and I had a regular job where my dreams weren't technically attached to it.

41:46It was just what I love to do. Like what if I loved building houses or building cabinets? And I loved the satisfaction of getting done. I'm like, that looks great. And I didn't go to bed going like thinking about my cabinets. And today when I drove out here and I saw this bookstore, I went, Oh, I actually understand you a little better. And I bet you actually sit in your bookstore at night sometimes and look around and go, I think I'm living the dream. Like, this is everything I like. Yeah, totally.

42:12Ryan Holiday: I think it's really good not to be around people who do what you do because then you can't compare yourself to them. Like, there's no jealousy because I'm not seeing anybody else's house or anybody else's car. I'm not like, I'm not bumping into like my quote unquote peers going like, how did they get that? You know, I'm just kind of doing my own thing. That's the death of, that's the crazy thing in comedy is that, I think people do compare themselves to the other people. And, you know, everyone's your friend until you get successful. Yeah. And then the second you get successful, it's like you lose.

42:44You lose, like, I'm going to be aggressive on this, but I'd say you lose. In genuineness, probably 60 % of your friends are just like, especially like some successful ones are like, dude, fuck that guy. Because you made it or whatever. Well, they didn't expect you to make it. They were cool with you being a loser. Right. They're good giving you, a lot of people are good at giving advice. But the second you no longer need their advice, it was weird. That's the American thing. I mean, that was like why I was like, oh, he liked me when I was a loser. And the second I started doing arenas, he didn't like me.

43:14Ryan Holiday: Yeah. And obviously, Marin never said that about me. That's what he said. But it's easy for you to assume that because that's actually happened. Yeah. Oh, it's happened. It's happened to so many people. There are very few people that are happy for your success. Right. It's like. Because people think it's zero sum that your success comes at the expense of their success. That you took their toy and started playing with their toy. Right. And then, you know, especially like I was at the, I was at the very beginning, I think of the comedy boom, you know, and the comedy boom is still happening. It's just not at the pace that it happened when I started it with it was like Tom is at the, like the forefront of it.

43:51Joe's at the forefront. Bill Burr's at the forefront. There's like Chappelle, they're at the forefront. I was on that second tier where I was just like, I was like riding their wake.

43:59Ryan Holiday: Yeah. And you'd go in and you were breaking ticket sales in like every venue, but it wasn't necessarily your, I mean, I'm saying I'm talented, but it wasn't that. It was so much that people were hot for comedy and the pandemic had just ended and ticket sales were wild. And they were like, I want to get out of the house. And I had been on tour all through the pandemic, like doing my outdoor open air drive and movie theater tour. And people were like, oh, his materials, he's been working through the pandemic. This is going to be good. right and then you you're wrecked and then your your earnings come out and all of a sudden dude like the next day fuck that guy and you're like whoa and you're and then you got and you got like i got i remember i had like you know very like like rogan was on my team like rogan was excited for me anyone below me and i say below me like just wasn't making that was all excited for me sebastian has always been cool tommy obviously you know but then but the list goes it gets pretty pretty shallow pretty quick i just found that like that's not good for you either like the person who's being jealous or going like why did they get that and that's not good for you and i found like the more i'm like out of the scene like a friend of mine gave me really good advice he said work family scene pick two oh it's work family yeah of course but so if you pick those then you don't know what's happening in the scene and then actually you do better work and you're not like you're not like well why am I not getting invited to this they seem like they're having I'm just disconnected from the scene and I think I found that's healthier for me not like because I'd be out partying but I'm just not like I don't know what other people are making or driving I don't I don't know what deals other people are getting or sales like it's just it's just better to just be doing your own thing and running your own race a hundred percent I always have I have weird analogies I always look for like of the two you're talking about I call people channel markers like Like, because I grew up in Florida, and so there was a lot of, like, when you're in the middle of the fucking, when you're heading out to sea, you're looking for the channel markers that are heading in the right direction.

45:59And I always looked for channel markers in life. Like, Rogan's always been a channel marker. Whatever he's doing, that is the right way you're going. You should go that direction. You know, Burr has always been a channel marker for me because he's always been on the more of the creative side. Not saying Joe's not creative, but he's very podcasting. Joe's very much, but Bill's always been, like, movies, TVs, scripted. Yeah. You know, always kind of like, and his, the way Burr approaches the standup is brilliant. There's a craft element to it. I just bought a book called Seven Basic Story Plots or whatever.

46:29I bought a book. Let me rephrase that. I got the audio book for$29. But, and the other one is, I heard someone say one time something about like if you're following the path in the woods, then you know that people have already gone that way. Yeah. And so I've always thought, well, the second you can't see the path anymore, the second it gets a little scary and you're, and you get lost, that's the best path to take in the woods because you're going in your own direction.

46:55Ryan Holiday: Actually, it's funny. There's a passage in Seneca where he's talking about, he's like, you got to, this is going to mix the metaphors a little bit, but I wonder what you think about it. So he says, like happiness is having a sense of the path that you're on. And he says, not being distracted by the paths that crisscross yours. And he says, especially not following the footsteps of people who are lost. all right okay i like you like that i like that seneca i always thought he was just a different type of toyota but he's he's fucking great who's seneca seneca is so marx reullus is emperor epictetus is a slave seneca's right there in the middle he's like a roman senator he's a playwright he's a famous guy and then he ends up he has like the world's worst job he is nero's uh philosophy teacher i don't know if you know anything about nero but nero do i know anything about nero Are you kidding me?

47:46So Nero never danced while Rome burned to the ground. He didn't play the fiddle.

47:52Ryan Holiday: Play the fiddle. He didn't play the fiddle. He didn't do anything when it burned. Yeah. He was the worst. No, no, no, no. So hang on. I get really hung up on Nero. Okay. So here's what happened, okay? I did not think this was going to go in this direction. So Nero was a pretty good fucking emperor. Hang on. Okay. Let me just, okay. Give me your take. Okay. So he was a pretty good emperor and he lasted for a while. Yes. And the guy that came up next, he didn't really do anything and he kind of disappeared. He was like the Jimmy Carter of emperors, right? The next guy was the Gerald Ford of emperors.

48:17And then the third guy, Ronald Reagan, was like, dude, we got to let them forget about fucking Nero so I can carve my own past. So he goes, yo, let's retrofit the Nero fiddle while Rome burned so that we can remember him as a piece of shit. And that's what they were trying to do to George Bush scene. No, I'm kidding. But like, but that's what they did to Nero so that this guy could, because I listen, I listen to a lot of stuff, but I barely taken. It seemed like it took a lot in. And so that's what I heard about Nero.

48:46Ryan Holiday: Okay. So basically Seneca is in exile. He's the emperor Claudius is deranged and he thinks that Seneca is having an affair with his sister. And so he banishes Seneca. Seneca gets sent into exile to the island of Corsica, which is off the coast of Italy. It's where Napoleon's from. So he's stuck in this rock in the middle of the ocean. He hates it. And he finally, he gets a letter. You can come back to Rome. It's from this woman. if you tutor my son. And her son is Nero. So he gets called back in exchange for tutoring this young kid who's almost certainly going to become the emperor one day. And Nero's smart.

49:24Ryan Holiday: Nero's promising. He seems like a good kid. Seneca teaches him everything he knows. And then Nero does become emperor. And for the first five years, he listens to Seneca and he has another military advisor named Burris who he listens to. And so the first five years of Nero are great. They're actually known as the quinquennium neuronis or the five golden years of Nero. But what happens is, you know, they say absolute power corrupts absolutely. The problem is Nero desperately wanted to be liked and he desperately wanted to be liked as both an athlete and an artist. That like, so, you know, it's funny.

49:59He sounds like Vladimir Putin.

50:00Ryan Holiday: Yes. Like people, it's funny, like people get the thing. You think that would be enough, but everyone wants, has their secret fantasy of what they want to be. So Nero, like. You're talking to the guy that's on testosterone about 325 pounds. Yeah, keep going. He fixes the Olympics so he can win as a chariot racer. He forces people to listen to his poetry. He's delusional. He's not that good, but that's what he really wants to be known for. So he kind of starts to spin off the planet. And then he gets really paranoid that people are plotting against him, right? Absolute power corrupts, absolutely.

50:28Ryan Holiday: At one point, Seneca tells him, he goes, you know, it's impossible for you to kill literally all of your successors. the point being eventually you'll die and someone will take your place like you can't kill everyone i need a seneca in my life and at one point he kills he assassinates his own mother he turns against his mother he sends her out on this crew on this boat ride and he has her killed um so i know about that so so he he loses his mind he he really is shitty and he loses his mind and eventually seneca who becomes very rich working for nero finally goes dude i've had enough i got to get out of here.

51:03Ryan Holiday: And Nero goes, bro, that's not how this works. And so he sends Seneca into exile. Eventually he kills Seneca, kills everyone. There's a joke. He has one of his generals killed and the general standing on the edge of his grave right before they kill him. And he looks down and he goes, even this isn't up to code. Like he's like, Nero sucks even at this. So he He sucks. He's good at first, spins off the planet, sucks. And then this is where the story gets crazy. When the walls close in on him, Nero realizes he has to kill himself, but he's too much of a coward to do it. So he calls one of his advisors to do it.

51:42Ryan Holiday: He botches it. He sticks the knife in. He kind of screws it up. Nero does. He calls one of his advisors and his advisor has to finish the job. And that advisor is the owner of Epictetus. So Epictetus is watching all of this happen. He's watching not just Nero spin off the planet, but he is watching Seneca like degrade himself by being associate. Like Seneca writes all this great stuff about what it means to be a stoic, what it means to be a good person, and then has a day job working for a monster. It's a fucking fascinating, like a twisted world. thanks so much for listening if you could rate this podcast and leave a review on itunes that would mean so much to us and it would really help the show we appreciate it and i'll see you next episode

52:51The Bleacher Report app is your destination for sports. Right now, the NBA is heating up, March Madness is here, and MLB is almost back. Every day there's a new headline, a new highlight, a new moment you've got to see for yourself. That's why I stay locked in with the Bleacher Report app. For me, it's about staying connected to my sports. I can follow the teams I care about, get real-time scores, breaking news, and highlights all in one place. Download the Bleacher Report app today so you never miss a moment. Thank you.