BONUS | Ezra Frech Before Dancing with the Stars

0:00Ryan Holiday: So I have a bunch of traveling I'm doing through the end of the year on Daily Stoic Live Tour. I just got back from San Diego. I like to stay in the places that I'm staying. I like to book places on Airbnb so I can be like a local. I not only do some of my best writing, but I learn about things that I wouldn't have known otherwise. When I was just in San Diego, I took a walk along the water. I bumped into someone who recognized me and they told me about their favorite local bookstore, which was like two blocks from where I was staying. And I never would have known about it if it wasn't for that encounter.

0:30Ryan Holiday: It was cool to me to think that I have helped facilitate that experience for many, many people coming to Austin over the years. The first house that I bought in Austin when my wife and I first moved here, we would list it on Airbnb. And it helped me make the transition from my corporate life to being a full-time writer. So if you're going to be away, you should maybe think about listing your place on Airbnb. It can be a great way to earn extra cash while you travel. It can offset the cost of your trip or maybe even go towards whatever you're doing next. If you've got travel coming up, check out Airbnb.

1:01Ryan Holiday: Your home might be worth more than you think, and you can find out how much at Airbnb.com slash host. They asked me if you had the opportunity to go back and change your disability. Would you do it? Today's guest is actually a first. I think he's the youngest guest, but he's also the first Paralympian. As Refrak is an American track and field athlete, and he won two gold medals at the 2024 Paralympics. The opportunity to represent something bigger than myself is one of the biggest points of pride. Is it exhausting, though, having to be a representative of something? Controlling your mind is the first step to being able to.

1:37Stoicism is, at its core, sort of a philosophy built around. I was devastated to lose on the world stage. Do you think that's healthy? Everywhere I went in public, as a young kid, everywhere, you have people staring and pointing fingers. You have this idea of what your kid is going to be. And then it's not about the journey and it's not about the destination. It's about who you become in pursuit of the destination. When I'm on the podium with three gold medals in LA in 2028, we can look back on this and I can say.

2:10Ryan Holiday: I think you're the youngest person on this podcast. So congratulations. Wow. I think so. I appreciate that. That's true. That's. No, it's funny. That'll go on my resume. I was for many years, always the youngest person to do stuff. I remember I was in LA and I was working at this talent agency and I was working for this guy and he was like, he was a movie producer, but he was 26, which was like very young. And, but to me, he was like super old. I remember he said to me, he was like, it's all very exciting. You're young and then you're more successful than all your friends. And then he's like, starting at about 26, 27, they all start graduating from medical school and stuff.

2:48Ryan Holiday: And he's like, and then it all evens out very quickly. That's so interesting. Because like I dropped out of college, I was like in the mix very early and doing like exciting, interesting stuff. Compared to your friends. Compared to my friends who like, this is all around the financial crisis. So most of them like either didn't find what they wanted to do right away because no one was hiring or they went back to get to go to grad school or whatever. It all kind of evens out. It evens out because most students are in school for an extended period of time and then immediately enter the workforce.

3:16Ryan Holiday: Yeah. No, I resonate with that. I totally resonate with that. It's also weird to be already in pursuit of your maybe career really early compared to your friends because you don't have a lot of shared experiences. And I guess in my, in my, well, all your peers are older. Right. And then you're my, I have friends from high school and friends in college that are my age, but we're just operating in totally different worlds sometimes, if that makes sense they you know they're interested in going out and partying and hanging out and doing this thing and finding internships at companies that i have the opportunity to partner with right so it's just the totally weird uh almost dynamic of career power in a way but but at the same time it's like you're right that at a certain point it completely evens out and then it's like the friends that have been studying for eight years are now just like you know some successful doctor and we're 27.

4:11And I mean, I'd like to think at 27, I'll be like this much further down my career,

4:15Ryan Holiday: but being an athlete must be weird too, because on the one hand, it's childlike, like you're still playing a game, you're doing a thing that you did, right? And there's, it's like fun and interesting and exciting. It's not like the real world, like having to go to an office. And on the other hand, you have to be serious and professional in a way that your college friends don't. Like the college athlete is on campus as an athlete, like all the other students, but basically has a full-time unpaid job. For sure. And the difference is that what I feel like I'm trying to pursue, especially in the Paralympic space, I mean, I've grown up obsessed with this dream, obsessed with this goal.

4:54I grew up dying to live the life that I'm able to live right now. And so I have a lot of gratitude just in that sense. But the reality is at least the way the Paralympics is right now, it's maybe the best comparison. The best comparison would be women's sports 20 years ago or 15 years ago, where you're not able to make a living just by being good at your sport. That's the reality. The sport's not paying you. The sport's not paying you. Just being good at your sport, you don't make any money. I know five-time Paralympic gold medalists dominating their sport for years who are living paycheck to paycheck.

5:26That's the reality. People always talk about how difficult it is to be an Olympic athlete, and it's really difficult. and then it's 10 times worse to be a Paralympic athlete. Yeah, of course. For many reasons. For many reasons. And so I'm sort of always in this uphill battle. So in the same way that I have to be hyper-focused on my career because everything that I do on the track has to be number one important because that sets up all these other opportunities. In that same way, I have to pursue things excluding the track like the content creation, like the speaking, like the sponsor stuff, like whatever else we might be doing in order to actually in some ways fund that athletic career, which is super interesting.

6:05Ryan Holiday: Yeah, you basically are a professional athlete and then your job is like content creator, influencer, person. But instead of being like, I just put on these clothes, you have to run really fast. Exactly. And so to think about the type of commitment that goes into being the best, which is you have to be all in. I have to be all in on the track. I need to be putting my blood, sweat, tears into this. I need to sacrifice everything in my life. But then I also have to figure out ways to monetize because the sport isn't paying me. And then additionally, hard to keep up with school. Like the reality is doing an essay late at night for a class that isn't that important to the general gist of my career is sometimes really hard to justify.

6:46Ryan Holiday: But the school gives you the chance to perform in front of large groups of people and be in the NCAA mix in a way that like being, I don't know, an independent lacrosse player is not going to give you. That's where the fans are. I did one year competing on the collegiate team and then I went pro this past summer. Oh, so you can't run for USC anymore. I'm not running on USC anymore. Interesting. And the way track and field works is that because there's no league, you get what's called a professional contract. So professionalizing, going pro in track and field is signing to an apparel company where now you get paid for performance bonuses.

7:26You get paid to win the world title, break the world record, win a national championship. That's our equivalent running for an apparel company as getting drafted to the MLB or NHL or NBA.

7:36Ryan Holiday: But if you were Caitlin Clark, you could have an apparel deal, no? And still play? Right, right, right. No, no, no. You can still. You can still. On the NBA, NFL, you also get apparel deals on top of that. No, no, no. I mean like if you're Caitlin Clark and you're playing in college, she could have an apparel deal and not lose her. And I could too. And I could too. Oh, got it. But the type of apparel deal is different. I won't get paid for performance. Oh, interesting. It's an NIL deal where you basically, it's based on your name, image, likeness. You get a base amount of money. Got it. If I win a world title or break the world record, that amount doesn't change.

8:10The incentives are what make you a pro.

8:12Ryan Holiday: So it used to be like money versus no money. And now it's what little memo they put on the track. It's like, if you do well, if you perform well on the track, then you basically make more money, which is the closest equivalent to being an NBA player and you do well and you get a bigger contract, right? That's the closest, closest equivalent. That's why in track it's called professionalizing because there's really no league. I just go compete at international meets around Europe. I wear Team USA on the world stage and stuff like that. And then you have, based on your sponsors, bonuses, assuming you do well.

8:49Ryan Holiday: Did Turning Pro feel different? Like, did it change how you approach doing it? Or is it just an accounting switch? It changes a little bit. So the reality is I had a pretty difficult first year or I guess only year on the USC track team. I took a gap year when I graduated high school. I took the gap year to train entirely for the Paris Paralympic Games before I went to college. And what that allowed me to do is basically organize and optimize everything that I was doing in my day designed to perform on the track. So 10 to 12 hours of sleep every night, five, six hours of recovery, sauna, red light, cryo, hyperbaric chamber, a few hours on the track, you know, my morning meditation, visuals, everything that I was doing was intended to get me closer to winning Paralympic gold.

9:38And then I went to college after an amazing Paralympic Games. After all the success, I go to college and now I'm dealing with teachers that don't care about anything else that I'm doing. I have homework assignments, an 8 a.m. class. We're only allowed to be on the track from this time to this time. We weightlift from this time. So it was, in a way, became really difficult for me to maintain that level of optimization that I had leading into Paris. And so because of that, I was just sort of struggling to find my way. Eventually, I got a little bit better at it. But in a way, going pro gives me the opportunity to get back to that place of full optimization.

10:12This is my main thing. This is my main thing. I build my schedule around this. And then what happened was, you know, I just got back from a world championships in India. I landed literally in L.A. yesterday and then jumped on the flight two hours later to come here. Are you exhausted? I'm a little tired, but good energy in the room sometimes brings about your own mental energy. Some are right. But the reality is I didn't do very well at this last world championships. Right. The one in India. The one I just got back from really poor, really bad performance on my end and the ramifications of a difficult year where I wasn't fully optimized.

10:47Ryan Holiday: It's a lagging indicator of some decisions. What has performed badly mean to you? In Paris at the Paralympics, I won the high jump. I'm the world record holder on the high jump and I lost the world title I got a silver in the high jump in India so bad for you is second place 100 % is second place especially in high jump, that's my main event and then the 100 meter which I won in Paris, I placed fifth in which I once again, I mean it's been a difficult year, a really unorthodox year ridiculed with injuries and things going on, we released a documentary I had to do a whole press tour and so things were really inconsistent training wasn't really there and then that's what happens when you go to world championships underprepared like that's that's the result but I will say you know I look back on this world championships quite fondly I'm sort of excited about all learnings and what will come but I totally lost and it was really you know lots of tears the last couple weeks it's funny you say that do you know that this sort of silver metal paradox have you heard this thing is it that getting silver is uh worse than getting bronze because when you're bronze you're happy to be on the podium yes but when you get silver you're so close to gold you feel like you were cheated or so bummed in the way you you actually feel that that checks out for you 1 000 i mean 1 000 that's real in a way because you know there's been times where you know i've gotten a bronze medal at some international competition and i'm so hyped that i got this bronze medal right but then you get a silver and you think oh man i was really close to gold i think circumstance is really important though yeah and so i am the world record holder on the high jump i should not lose that event if i lose the high jump it is me beating myself it is not my opponent beating me if that makes any sense so the fact that i lost that and got a silver and that's what couldn't it just as easily be the conditions or that the other person out like what So the other person performed really well.

12:43He had the best day of his life and I had to have a really bad day. And there's so many, you're right, there's so many variables involved. Conditions, injuries, like a few weeks before the competition, I could barely walk. I hurt my back real bad. But at the end of the day, there's no excuses. I showed up next to this dude and he beat me. He's the world champion. And that eats me alive.

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14:16Ryan Holiday: 278 years later, some of us, depending on what you do, are still spending part of every month typing receipts into a form. It's bad use of your time. That's bad use of company time. Expense reports are tedious. It's not what I want my employees doing. Well, Ramp makes collecting and submitting expenses super simple. With Ramp, expenses submit themselves. You just text or email your receipt and Ramp categorizes codes and submits it. And when you book business travel with Ramp, they find the best flights and hotels you're actually allowed to book. You don't find out later that your company is only partially going to cover it.

14:52Ryan Holiday: Ramp is the only finance platform that employees and finance teams both rave about. And companies have saved over$12 billion with Ramp. Time is money. Save both with Ramp. New customers get$250 off at ramp.com slash daily stoic. that's ramp.com slash daily stoic really it eats you alive eats me alive i mean for context just just so you understand how i operate i was 16 years old at the tokyo 2020 paralympic games okay i should have been on the podium i was capable of it but i was really young as my first games and i placed fifth and are there age groups in the paralympics no age groups so i mean it's probably important to establish just some like general understanding for the viewers as well and the listeners, which is the Paralympics happens two weeks after the Olympics.

15:41Right. And it is for people with physical disabilities. 15 % of the world population, a billion people globally, 50 million in the U.S. that live with the physical disability. Wow. Which is staggering numbers. That's a very large number. In contrast, people with cognitive disabilities, that's 2 % to 3 % of the U.S. population. So this is a massive, massive number. and what people get confused on is they either think it's the same thing as the olympics they think i'm i'm an olympian which they're related but they are different different committees and different organizing committees and different games or they think i'm a special olympian which which is special olympics is great an amazing organization and they do programming for people with cognitive impairments but it's inclusive it's programming yes paralympics is the highest

16:25Ryan Holiday: level sporting competition on the planet yeah people just happen to have a physical disability And there's classification. So I only compete against people with the same or similar disability. I'm not going to run against a blind dude, guy missing just his hand. He would beat me and they're more capable. And so in the Paralympics, my classification in the high jump when I was 16 years old in Tokyo, I got fifth. Yeah. And I was the final chance for me to get the bronze medal. I take this high jump at a height that was basically my personal best. And I have the best jump of my life. I soar over the bar.

17:01I land on the mat. I don't even touch it. I don't feel myself touch it. And I jump up to go celebrate. And I see the red flag and the bars down. And I thought I just didn't touch this bar at all. And my prosthetic leg skimmed the top of the bar. and I didn't feel it. And so I was this, I was devastated to lose on this, on the world stage. I felt like I let the fit my family down, my friends, everyone. And so that night I, I set the lock screen on my phone as a photo of the medalists when they took, they take that photo with the flags that I watched that I'm not in with the words never again. So that every time I would open up my phone for those years in between Tokyo and the next games, which was obviously Paris, I would see a photo of the dudes that beat me and it would just always reinvigorate me.

17:50I got to go get this one back. But that's how I am. You know, that's, I am deeply motivated by my losses and failures and how I can learn from them. Do you think that's healthy? I don't know if that's healthy. I think that this is a question that my family poses to me a lot. Yeah. And my parents' job in a way has become to write reel me back in when they see me getting to a point because I'm an obsessive at heart. Yeah. And I think about this all day, 24 seven. It's all that goes through my head. I think that's almost a slight qualification to be successful at any things. You have to be all in and super committed.

18:26Sure. But I don't know if it's healthy. I do a lot of things to make sure I'm mentally in a good place. I meditate daily. I do quite a bit of journaling. My mom has basically been my mental coach for very many years. And so they're constantly aware of that. And am I going too far and how to reel me back in? But it's always sort of, that's kind of my personality in a way.

18:47Ryan Holiday: I don't. Do you think there's another form of motivation or that's the only thing that could propel you? It's not the only thing that propels me. It's actually not even close to the only thing. It's actually probably not even the biggest motivator. The biggest motivator for me is purpose. I genuinely feel in my heart of hearts I was put on this earth to normalize disability to be an example of what is possible as an amputee because the reality is you live with the physical disability life is worse people with physical disabilities are bullied in higher rates have less job opportunities the depression rate is higher less physically active I talk to kids with disabilities all the time they're bullied in school 24 7 and in my they just have the thing to deal with whatever it is right yeah right but even excluding that which for a lot of people is just normal to them right their quality of life is substantially worse and in my opinion it's because i don't think that disability is properly included in society in a weird way like there's this stigma people don't know what to say they don't want to say the wrong thing they don't want to offend anyone they don't understand right and so i think that my purpose in life is to normalize disability and the way i believe i do that is through becoming the greatest Paralympian of all time through putting myself out there and the media building a big enough brand to be the spokesperson for this contingent of the population.

20:07And so that's the biggest driver for me, which is I think of, you know, there's, there's kids in parts of Africa, places in the middle East, people with disabilities are considered cursed. There was a story that my mom read about a Chinese trash scavenger that adopted 40 something children because they were born missing fingers and limbs and were thrown in the trash and he found them there and adopted them kids with disabilities around the world we have soldiers who came back from the middle east and said that they found kids with disabilities shot and killed in the forest just because they were born different and so if i think about the grand scheme of things my purpose in life this might not be the healthiest way to think about it but if i don't accomplish my goals if i don't rewire the way the world sees disability more of these children suffer and more people

20:56Ryan Holiday: with disabilities so where does getting second place next to another paralympian right what why do you have to feel shitty about that well because because winning winning and going down as the greatest uh paralympian of all time track is just one of the first steps to accomplishing that larger vision and elevating the profile of the paralympics and broadening the brand and And the opportunities that come from that. And so in my head, you know, I need to go down as the greatest Paralympian of all time in order to then be at a place to create this sort of broader change. Interesting. I relate to it.

21:34Ryan Holiday: It's a tension, right? Because, like, did you feel like there was something that you could have done that you didn't do? And that's what you're kicking yourself about? Or are you mostly just mad about the result? So losing in general sucks. Of course. Nobody likes to lose. And I'm ultra - Losers do. Have you ever heard that joke? No. What is that? Show me a good loser and I'll show you a loser. Oh, right. Because if they're okay with losing, then they're a loser. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's funny. Well, if you're good with losing, you'll lose a lot. You'll lose a lot. Yeah. That's funny. I mean, so yeah, in general, losing sucks, but that's not sort of, I accept that.

22:06I know that in a sport that - You're not going to win all the time. You're not going to win all the time. That's the way it goes. Sure. And for me, it's more so what I do in the preparation. If I do everything in my power possible, if I leave no stone unturned, I can walk away from the track after the competition. Sure. Whether I'm pissed about losing, that's fine, but I did everything I could. There was no stone left unturned. And I do feel similarly about this last competition. The only thing is we just took a lot of risks throughout the year. I was the first above-the-knee amputee to ever compete on a D1 track team.

22:36We didn't know what that was going to look like. We made a lot of changes prosthetic-wise. I was sort of battling a ton of adversity, a few injuries, and then we released this documentary on Peacock. It's called Adaptive. And I basically put my heart and soul into making this project. And so I had to do everything in my power to make sure that it's successful and people watch it. And we did a whole media tour, which I don't regret because I needed to do that for the bigger purpose. But it might have cost you something. But it cost me. It did. And so I had inconsistent training. And, you know, within the circumstances, I did the best I could.

23:09Right. But this learning from the losses at this world championships is moving forward. The main thing needs to be the main thing. And this was the first year I've really struggled to juggle everything because after Paris, everything sort of elevated and we had opportunities come in beforehand, but not at the same level and not in the same way. And so now I have to figure out how to balance everything. And this year was just the learning.

23:33Ryan Holiday: So when the hard part is you do these other things because like, like for me, like you can't just be an author for the most part these days, like just the economics of the business and, and also the things that ultimately make people read the books you got to do over here. Like this podcast is a good example, but the problem is all those other things as well as they can pay. And as interestingly, it can be, they all have a cost, but you know, the cost is there, but you think you're getting away with it. Right. And you don't pay the bill until some unexpected later moment. And it's often higher than you wanted it to be.

24:09That's exactly how I feel that you couldn't have articulated that any more perfectly because as you're juggling these things, of course you think you're doing it right. Yeah. And then you're putting it on a credit card and you never anticipate what it's actually going to build up to, what you're going to have to pay at the end of it. Yeah.

24:26Ryan Holiday: And then you're putting on the credit card, you're putting on the credit card, and then you're paying the minimums on the credit card. And then at one point, you know, cause nobody looks at their mail one day you do open it and you're like, Oh shit. Uh, and it's second place or it's not even qualifying or it's, yeah, your, your, your immune system is bad. Cause you were at a party the night before the thing because you agree. Yeah. And, and you just, um, or your spouse walks out on you. There's all these things that you don't know where the cost is being incurred, but just because you're not quantifying it doesn't mean it's not accumulating.

25:04Absolutely. And I think as disappointed as we can be in those moments, I was actually overcome with quite a bit of gratitude there just in the fact that I'm able to have this learning opportunity come to me at such an early stage in my career, learn how to adjust, navigate, and make sure that those mistakes don't happen again when the games come to my hometown in LA in three years. Better to learn it in India than Los Angeles. Exactly, exactly. Do you think you'll actually learn it?

25:34Ryan Holiday: Absolutely. Yeah. I would say. Because that's the problem. Life sort of gives us these reminders. It happens. And then tomorrow you got a bunch of requests and you're like, I think I can do it. Right. And also, I think it was Chris Williamson who said this. He was like, it's better to be sometimes in a way worse position because you have more activation energy to get out of that than if something slightly goes wrong. Yes. Because if something's slightly going wrong, maybe you're in a little bit of an uncomfortable position. There's not enough activation energy for people to really pull themselves out of it.

26:06You can lie to yourself. You can lie to yourself. In this case, though, I feel like I'm on this is this is one of the more difficult few weeks of my entire life competing at this world championships, you know, knowing all that I put in and not feeling like I was prepared. and so I would like to think I'll learn from this but time will tell if I'm on the podium excuse me when I'm on the podium with three gold medals in LA in 2028 we can look back on this and I can say you know what I did learn from it but we'll see time but it is interesting right like we have our

26:38Ryan Holiday: sort of larger purpose which is meaningful and over a long time span and then we end up defaulting though, to the much more easily measurable metrics. If I told you you could radically change people's idea of disabilities and whatever, but you were going to never stand on the podium again. I would accept that like this in a heartbeat. Right. But day to day, you're evaluating your progress on your race times and whether you're on the podium or not. Right. Like people do this with money. Right. They go like, You picked this thing that is, of all the things, not the most lucrative. You could have gotten into cryptocurrency or hedge funds.

27:26Ryan Holiday: If all you cared about was optimizing for money, there's many things you could choose. And so people don't choose that. They choose social work or this or that. And then, though, once they're in there, they're measuring themselves against other people by what kind of car they drive or how nice their house is. it's like you already said money was not the most important thing to you, but because the other thing isn't as quantifiable, you're kind of whipping yourself day to day or you're making individual decisions based on money, even though you've already made, you've already asserted your larger purpose as not that.

28:03Ryan Holiday: Like I remember, I think I talked about this in one of my books, but so I told you I worked at American Apparel and the founder is this kind of weird Elon Musk character. And I remember someone, their big thing was they manufactured all their clothes in the U.S. And someone was saying like, hey, I don't know, like, obviously, you know this, but I'm just reiterating it to you that you should, if you move the factory to Mexico, you'd make a lot more money. And he was like, if all I cared about was making money, is what the owner said. He's like, I would have just become a drug dealer. And I think about that all the time.

28:32Ryan Holiday: It's like, oh, yeah, he chose this thing because he loves this thing, not because it's the way to maximize profits. Why would he make individual decisions that are designed to maximize profits. Right. And so that's kind of the paradox is like we have this larger purpose and that's how we'll evaluate our life as a whole. But then day to day, we're like, does this get me more money? Does this get me more fame? Does this get me more this? Right. And then we wonder why we don't end up doing the bigger, larger goal. Right. Which which is an interesting dichotomy. That's an interesting balance between I mean, you have the reality is you can have sort of long term goals, but you have to have things in the short term to sort of keep yourself accountable as you get towards them.

29:14And it's making sure that those things are actually still in line. And that's why, yes, I know that getting a silver medal at this world championships, I'm not actually getting further away from maybe my larger purpose or the goals I want to accomplish. But part of that purpose, in my opinion, is the opportunity to elevate Paralympic sport because of what the Paralympics can do to change perceptions about people with disabilities. And the reality is in the Paralympics, or let's just say in any other sport movement, you have a person that is able to transcend the movement and bring it into the mainstream.

29:50Swimming wasn't on national TV the same way until Michael Phelps came along. Women's basketball, you can make an argument, recently hasn't reached new heights until Caitlin Clark comes along. The UFC was popular, but Conor McGregor took it to a whole nother level. I think that there's the opportunity for someone to do that for the Paralympics. And I feel like it's my duty to be that person. And so that's why the not winning has an added layer of frustration, because I feel like I have the opportunity to elevate the movement and I have to win in order to do that, if that makes sense.

30:24Ryan Holiday: No, it totally makes sense. It sounds like your parents did a really good job when you were young of like building you up, like of making you feel like you could be the person that could do that. Absolutely. My parents are the reason I am confident, secure. I mean, living with a disability, not fucking easy. Everywhere I went in public as a young kid, everywhere you have people staring and pointing fingers and whispering. I felt like a zoo animal for so many years of my life. I felt ostracized from society in a way. And the values and lessons that my parents instilled in me as a young kid completely helped shape the confidence that I believe I exhibit today.

31:06For example, I would be really insecure as a young kid and my mom would always tell me, she said, my whole upbringing, you walk into every room with your chin up, your chest out, and you walk in like you own the place. You don't retreat to that insecurity about your disability. And so growing up, every room I walked into, I had my chin up, my chest held high. My parents never treated me any differently. I participated in sports my whole childhood. They encouraged me to go after my dreams. And so then over time, I became this kid who was hyper confident in what he believed he was able to do regardless of disability or not.

31:43And that just came from the words that my parents constantly reiterated to me throughout my childhood.

31:51Ryan Holiday: Where do you think they learned how to do that? Like, did they have experience? No, I was the first kid. Imagine your first child is born with a disability. And my parents were real environmental advocates up until that point. And then they sort of realized that, you know, the environment has plenty of people advocating for it, but that people with disabilities really don't. And so they sort of made it our family mission to be disability advocates. We have a nonprofit in LA that my dad ran and still runs called Angel City Sports, where we provide sports opportunities for people with physical disabilities.

32:21And so the whole family just shifted towards disability, but they haven't had any prior experience in raising a kid, had all these values. They just, I don't know, intuitively understood how to fill me up with confidence and make me secure in myself. And I think they should write a parenting book. I don't know.

32:39Ryan Holiday: Well, reading about it, It must have been scary and hard for them in the sense that it was a process, like in the sense that you were you were born a certain way. But then there were a bunch of different surgeries and probably insanely difficult decisions that they had to make. Oh, my God. That affect you. But you can't like. A hundred percent. 20 year old. You can't go back and be like, hey, I'm going to feel great about this. They're worried like. They amputated a leg. They amputated a leg. So I had a left leg that was curved up towards my waist. and it wouldn't have been functional as I work to continue to grow.

33:10And then I had one finger on my left hand. And so they traveled the world trying to find doctors that would basically propose a solution to make my life the most functional moving forward. Amputation, some doctor says this thing. And so they had to basically make a decision that was going to permanently affect their child's life. Right. Without, you're right, his consent or understanding or any of that. Yeah. And so they made the decision to amputate my left leg right at the knee and then do a toe to hand transplant from the left foot on my left hand so that I could pick up and hold things. And I mean, they have a lot of stories about they canceled a surgery actually in the 11th hour, like right before because they had a gut feeling that it was wrong.

33:52Yeah. Just so much went on. But it's crazy to think about. I sometimes forget. And now that you're mentioning it, it's making me really think about it again. But it's insane to have to make decisions like that for you.

34:03Ryan Holiday: Yeah. Yeah. No, there's a there's this guy named Chesty Puller who was one of the most decorated Marines in American history. Went through some of the worst battles of the Second World War. There's this story, you know, so you think he's like the hardest guy in the world. And there's a story about having to, like, take his daughter and your experiences at some point. But like the hardest part as a parent, if you ever had a kid do any kind of serious medical procedure, is the like when you give your kid to this person. And then that walk down the hallway where they're being like wheeled away from, it's just like the heartbreaking, worst, most vulnerable moment you'll ever go through.

34:39Ryan Holiday: She's getting her tonsils out, like something minor. But he's like, he's giving it to the doctor and he comes back to his wife and he's just weeping. And he says, you know, that was worse than Peleliu, I think. That was worse than like one of the worst invasions of World War II. And you go, yeah, because in this moment, the thing that basically they say, like having a kid is like having your heart outside your body. And and you're like having to give that thing to someone else that you've met once to like cut them open or do this terrible thing to them. And I can only imagine that like they obviously you do all the research you think and then you're like, hope we're fucking making the right decision.

35:18Yeah, that's that's crazy. Crazy. that's so crazy and it makes sense and you know my mom always told me growing up she's like you will never understand how much i love you until you have a kid of your own you know my family my parents they're those are the people i do it for that's my village those are my biggest supporters in the world but i can't even imagine what it must have been like to have to you know because this is 15 hours 15 hours once again amputating and cutting me open like and then all the recovery and then all the recovery afterwards you know we didn't even know if the surgery was going to be successful.

35:50My body might not have taken on the new finger. They were connecting nerves and tendons and arteries. There was a memory I have actually when I was, I don't even know how long post-surgery, but I was in the bathtub and I was in the bath for an extended period of time. And my new thumb, my new finger, which was the toe, wrinkled in the bath for the first time, which is the sign that the body has accepted it. And my parents freaked out and were celebrating and crying. And, you know, as a young kid, I maybe didn't fully process it, but I just got chills retelling the story that that was the first sign that my body had accepted that the surgery had been fully successful, which is crazy.

36:29Imagine it wasn't successful. You do all that and it still doesn't work. That was the risk they were taking.

36:34Ryan Holiday: Yeah. Well, and there's also this struggle as a parent, because it's like you, you have this idea of what your kid is going to be. And then everyone gets not that or not the average, you get your kid and every kid is different and every kid is not what you expect. And then there's this process of having to go, oh, this is like, this is the assignment that we got. And it's not maybe the assignment that we expected. It's certainly not the easiest assignment. And it's not what our neighbor's assignment is or what all the other parents. And then you go, oh, I got to figure out what's being asked of me here and what the job is here and what success is here.

37:12Ryan Holiday: And like, you're the, you're their first kid. And so like, first off, they just have no experience. They definitely have no experience in that specific thing. It must've been incredible. Yeah. That's a great way to put it. I love that assignment analogy. It's like, yeah, you don't know what homework assignment you're about to get in some way. But that's life. And I think what stoic philosophy is also saying is like, everyone gets a fucking assignment and sometimes it's a very privileged assignment and sometimes it's a very a powerless assignment, but like your job is to play that hand. Well, absolutely.

37:43And, you know, controlling your mind is the first step to being able to manage those external circumstances. Funny enough, my dad actually for, you know, all of my sort of elementary into middle school and even sometimes in high school years, he would just write, send me motivational quotes or things like that. And around my track competitions would actually, he was subscribed to your newsletter. Oh, really? And he would be, he would always send me, you know, whatever the write-up of the day was. And so I went back and I looked at a couple of them today and I was just like back in my email, I just scrolled down and I was like, wow, that's really cool to see.

38:16Ryan Holiday: Well, to go to the point about like someday all your friends also grow up, that's the other thing is you do a thing long enough and then people are like, oh yeah, I've been reading your stuff since I was 12. And you're like, you don't feel like, like you could be old. Like I just did, The obstacles away just had its 10th anniversary. And it's like, I don't feel like a person who could have a 10 year old book that just, that's not how it feels to me. But then time is just always sort of working on you. Yeah. And you go from like the young to the not young. And then one day you wake up and you have gray hair and stuff.

38:50Ryan Holiday: It's a, it's a weird process. Yeah, absolutely. No, it's, it's, it's totally surreal. I think that's sort of the beauty of at all, which is like, as you're going through something, sometimes you don't maybe appreciate it as much as possible. And that's something that I've tried to really think about, which is, I love the quote one. I don't remember where I got it from. It was like, it's hard to stop and smell the roses when you're riding on a horseback. And it's hard. I can imagine as you're constantly in pursuit and a million things are happening and you're going after these goals that you set for yourself to then really appreciate the moment.

39:25But then when you look back 10 years later, you go, oh my gosh, I've been, you know what I mean? I have so much appreciation for those early moments or this or that. Well, every athlete I've ever talked to has,

39:34Ryan Holiday: that's retired, they always say they wish they'd enjoyed playing more because it's the exact tension you're talking about, which is you're so driven and you're so, you've so locked into, you know, like winning is good and losing is bad that you're missing, like, like Bruce Springsteen is like they call it playing for a reason. Like you get to do a fun thing professionally, but you can suck the fun out of it by going like losing is bad and it sucks to have to lose. Because what you're missing is that like you're missing all the people that wanted even a chance to compete that didn't make it. And then all the people whose dream it was to play that sport or music or whatever that dropped it along the way.

40:22Ryan Holiday: So you're only comparing yourself against the two people in front of you or the one person in front of you or against the 10 other competitors in the heat that you're in. And you're not going, hey, actually, if I zoom out, you know, compared to all the other people that have ever done this sport or want to do this sport, I'm on the podium. And then I think in your case to be like, what's the average life quality of the person born the way that you were born? And then go, oh shit, it's all fucking gravy from here. That's a great point. And that's something that I am continuing to grapple with, which is I love what I do.

40:59I'm so blessed. I get to travel around the world, go to cool places, compete in a sport that I love. I'm so grateful. I wake up every day and go to the track and love this. I love the recovery. I love getting great sleep. Like this is my life and I'm, I enjoy it so intentionally. And in that same vein though, I also hold myself to a ridiculously high standard and believe that I'm capable of becoming the greatest Paralympian of all time. And then if I'm capable of it to not accomplish, it would be an insult to all of the people that believe in me or behind me and even myself. And I remember, so one of the, one of the newsletters that my dad sent me that I reread today was about manifestation and about how the Stoics didn't really believe in manifestation.

41:47They believed in action and that action is sort of the one thing you need to add to manifestation to make it happen. And I am thinking about it is thinking about it is nothing unless you do it. Thinking about it is worthless if you're not actually intentionally trying to pursue that thing. I do wholeheartedly believe that if you are thinking about something and then also in pursuit of that thing. Sure. Aggressively, I think you have a higher likelihood of accomplishing it than if you have no emotional attachment, don't care at all. Right. But I read that this morning and it reminded me of just sort of this whole process of like action is everything here.

42:27And it's the person who takes action, who takes more action that will be more successful. Oftentimes just thinking about it means you're going to take more action a little bit.

42:37Ryan Holiday: Was your dad really into sports or was it a surprise for them that you went this direction? My dad was into sports in a way. He almost went pro in skateboarding. He could have done well in soccer. He was a great athlete, but no one in my family has pursued anything athletically. I'm from a Persian family that on paper doesn't have the greatest athletic genes. One time there was, we were actually at a family party and there was someone had to climb through a window to unlock a door, it got jammed or whatever. And they were about to send me. And then all my family, they were like, no, we can't send the only child that has any athletic potential.

43:14And what does it say about it? We have to keep them healthy. But so yeah, no real athletic genes in the family.

43:19Ryan Holiday: So I have a bunch of traveling I'm doing through the end of the year on Daily Stoic Live Tour. I just got back from San Diego. I like to stay in the places that I'm staying. I like to book places on Airbnb so I can be like a local. I not only do some of my best writing, but I learn about things that I wouldn't have known otherwise. When I was just in San Diego, I took a walk along the water. I bumped into someone who recognized me, and they told me about their favorite local bookstore, which was like two blocks from where I was staying, and I never would have known about it if it wasn't for that encounter.

43:48Ryan Holiday: It was cool to me to think that I have helped facilitate that experience for many, many people coming to Austin over the years. The first house that I bought in Austin when my wife and I first moved here We would list it on Airbnb and it helped me make the transition from my corporate life to being a full-time writer. So if you're going to be away, you should maybe think about listing your place on Airbnb. It can be a great way to earn extra cash while you travel. It can offset the cost of your trip or maybe even go towards whatever you're doing next. If you've got travel coming up, check out Airbnb.

44:19Ryan Holiday: Your home might be worth more than you think and you can find out how much at airbnb.com slash host. My kids actually saw an ad for this the other day on YouTube, and they asked if we could try it. And we did. We had a lot of fun. Whatnot is a totally different platform for buying stuff. It is a live shopping app. It's really fun because I think you want to see who's selling you this stuff. You want to see what they have to say about it. Whatnot is where sellers shine and find their people. Repeat customers that come back to see your face instead of just a logo. So, Whatnot is the largest dedicated live shopping platform.

44:54Ryan Holiday: Beauty, collectibles, electronics, luxury, fashion, even cookies. Sellers are building real, thriving businesses. Anyone can sell. Your business can be big or small. It can be just starting. And people selling on Whatnot sell 10 times more than on other marketplaces. Because you're not just listing products. You're building real connections with buyers. Whatnot users spend something like an hour a day on the app. They're not just browsing. They're engaged. They're buying. They're coming back. You go live. You show off products in real time and you turn what you love into real income. Search Whatnot, W-H-A-T-N-O-T in the app store, download and start selling right away.

45:29Ryan Holiday: It seems like they had the drive to be elite at things. There's which is I think sometimes people think that like, oh, they're into sports. But actually you find like sports, acting, entrepreneurship. entrepreneurship, it's all the same kind of drive to perfect and perform and be really good at something. Yes. Yes, absolutely. That makes sense. And they did have that. Interesting. And have had that. So I imagine they probably understood that given some of the struggles you were going to go through and some of the maybe confidence issues, that having a thing that you could control and throw yourself into would be really good for you.

46:12Absolutely. And the reality is sports is really powerful for that. Sure. It's one of the many maybe universal connectors in a way where you can bring people together from totally different backgrounds, totally different experiences, and they're playing a sport together. There's a level of connection. And so for me, that was my way in to finding friends, finding myself, building confidence, the nature of my disability. I was able to just keep up with my friends, play sports all throughout elementary school. Most people with disabilities can't do that. Their disabilities might be more severe. Even the ones that do integrate face massive discrimination.

46:49That's why we have the nonprofit for people who aren't able to fully integrate in a way. But that's why I gravitated towards sports because I felt like I belonged. Everywhere I would go throughout the day, I didn't feel like I belonged. But then when I stepped on the court, when I stepped on the track, I felt like one of the guys and that was powerful.

47:07Ryan Holiday: And to have something that you're excellent at or that you're dominating at, that's, it's like, I am enough. But that can be the tricky part is that you think up early on that I'm only good when I achieve or I accomplish. Right. Which is why the foundation of I am enough who I am. And I love this quote that I heard one time where it was like, it's not about the journey and it's not about the destination. It's about who you become in pursuit of the destination. In pursuit of your goals, the person you become is more powerful than the destination or the journey itself. And for me, my parents made sure that I was confident in who I was and sports was a part of that.

47:47My family was a part of that. My work ethic was a part of that. My dreams, every variable that impacted my life, of course, is going to play a role in my confidence, but that foundation was strong thanks to them.

47:59Ryan Holiday: Is it exhausting though, having to be a representative of something? Like I read this thing from John Thompson once, who's one of the first black coaches in college basketball. And he was saying like, the one thing about my career is I never just got to be a basketball coach. He's always a black basketball coach or he's always the first of this. He has to represent a community in a way that insert random other coach, athlete, whatever, doesn't have to be. I can understand what he's saying. And if you don't intentionally sign up for that, I can see how one might be annoyed by that over an extended period of time.

48:37Yeah. I'm grateful for it. I love it. The opportunity to represent something bigger than myself is one of the biggest points of pride. I am so grateful to have that opportunity to represent this community, whether it be representing Team USA, whether it be representing my family lineage, whether it be representing all 1 billion people with a physical disability. I have so much gratitude that that's even the opportunity that I have that. And it can be difficult in the sense that a lot of people come up and they go, well, that's so much pressure. You're putting so much pressure on yourself. And, you know, I don't feel the pressure.

49:14I wouldn't say that I I almost feel like we oftentimes convince ourselves of things a little bit too much and then they become a reality. You know, my mom growing up, every time I was nervous or worried about something, she'd always be like, you're not nervous. you're excited in the body. It's the same thing. Like convince yourself you're excited about these things. And so I, you know, and I'm not even just like saying this to convince myself of it. It's become my reality, which is I love this opportunity. I see it as an opportunity. I don't see it as anything negative.

49:42Ryan Holiday: There must be moments where it would be nice to just not have to carry that around. Like in the sense of like, like, I don't know, like, uh, you think about what other people can get away with, right? That don't see themselves as a representative. So they can be like, like one athlete can throw a temper tantrum and be an asshole in the way that perhaps Caitlin Clark cannot, right? Or LeBron James as a high schooler to pro, there's a different set of expectations and he's having to prove a thing that again, insert regular player does not have to think about. Do you ever feel like you're carrying a weight that's not yours and you get tired of that?

50:22You know, that's a really interesting point. And it makes sense on paper. I can't say that I've ever felt like I'm carrying a burden that isn't mine. I feel like I put this on myself. And so I feel like I've strengthened my shoulders and back enough that I know the weight that I'm carrying. I have it on my shoulders. And if anything, it's like that's sort of the drive behind all of it. So even if there is something that maybe to someone else might seem like a negative, I haven't even in my head registered that thing as negative because I see it as a part of this larger purpose. Like, yes, on paper, I am not a normal college student.

50:58I don't have the luxury that most college kids where they can just hang out and chill all day and go do this and hang out with their friends. And quit because they don't like it anymore. And quit because they don't like it anymore or go to a party and stay out super late. I'm in bed super early. I'm getting good sleep. I'm not out. I don't drink or do any of this other stuff. And so to the average person that looks like one of those things that sucks. What a burden. You have to do this. You have to do that. You have to get up and go to the track. But I see it as I love this shit. This is so enjoyable.

51:27And so I don't even characterize it as a negative thing. Or for example, I don't eat sugar. I don't eat any desserts year round. And my family thinks I'm crazy. Like just have one bite of the cake. I won't even have one bite. One bite. Nothing. Just off the table. Off the table. and to the average person, it's like, what a miserable life. But it's like, no, I love this. I love eating the steaks. I love eating healthy. I love the opportunity to be in better shape when the season rolls around and perform at the highest level. So I don't see it as a negative, if that makes sense.

51:56Ryan Holiday: Well, you were just saying your mom's like, when you go in, you got to have your chest out and your chin up. And like, I got to imagine, especially when you're a kid, there's moments where you're like, I just want to sulk into this room and feel sorry for myself. Absolutely. Yeah, but you don't get to. Or you don't allow yourself to. The philosophy that my parents sort of instilled in me is not that I am to be void of any negative or insecure feelings, but rather feel them, accept them, and then remind myself of the things that helped me work through them. And so I had many moments growing up where, yes, I would cry to my parents as a young kid and say, why did God give me one leg?

52:37And why am I the only kid in my school with a disability? And that's, of course, tough. And in the same vein, I have moments on the track like a few weeks ago where I'm, you know, really struggling and sort of battling my own insecurities of am I good enough? Am I, you know, able to accomplish these larger goals? Am I the athlete that I say I am, that I vocalize? Like, who am I? Of course, it's just about learning to navigate through that. And I feel like that's what I've become really good at is in those moments, sort of picking myself back up and piecing myself back together and then moving forward almost even stronger because of sort of those darker moments.

53:15I really have felt a lot of them. I mean, there was one point where I sort of had this realization as a young kid where I was like sulking in this really dark place. And I thought to myself, well, I genuinely can't change this. I can't change the fact that I have a physical disability. I'm not benefiting myself at all by just sulking in this place why don't I just say fuck it and make the most out of my life and so it's those moments that have have shaped me into

53:43Ryan Holiday: the person I am did your dad ever send you any emails about Epictetus maybe I didn't I didn't I just looked at a few of them I didn't so Epictetus is one of the Stoke philosophers so he's born a slave or into slavery spends 30 years of his life in slavery and he's owned by this sort of cruel master. And so there's one scene that we hear about where the master is just like sadistically torturing him for some reason. And he ends up breaking Epictetus's leg in a way, or back then when the medical care was so bad, it doesn't heal right. And so he walks with this limp the rest of his life. So he's no, if you see some of the ancient etchings or drawings of Epictetus, he's usually with a crutch because this leg is lame as the parlance of the day was.

54:24Ryan Holiday: And so he has this famous quote where he goes like, lameness is a disability of the leg, but not of the mind. And his point was that like, it actually doesn't really matter that much that my body is disabled in some way. Because for the Stoics, the only thing that mattered was what we think about it. And no physical injury to the body affects how we think about it. That is still in our control. And so ironically, or interestingly, stoicism is at its core sort of a philosophy built around how do you make sense of and integrate something like this into your life? Absolutely. That's a beautiful quote, because in many ways, probably makes him more mentally resilient.

55:08Ryan Holiday: Sure. It's a metaphor. It's a metaphor, you know, and so I definitely resonate with that. And that's that's super true. True. I'm not the person I am today without my disability. People ask me all the time, they say, oh, do you think you would be super successful this or that if you had two legs or whatever? And I say, absolutely not. The grit and the way I approach my goals and the person I am is a direct product of the stuff I've gone through, of my disability, of the experiences I've had the same way. You're not the same person without those real difficult times. You know, it probably you would be normal.

55:42Ryan Holiday: Right. In in the non positive sense, like you would probably just be like everyone else you went to school with. And everything I'm trying to be right now is the antithesis of normal. Yeah. And normal is it's ordinary versus extraordinary. Right. You would be ordinary. You'd have all the facilities and, you know, advantages of everyone. And then the disadvantage would be that you would take those things for granted. And when things were hard, you would probably quit. Or when something didn't go your way, you would accept it. And you probably also your parents would have probably not been so intentional about the lessons and the values that they imparted because they would have gone like, he'll figure it out.

56:25Ryan Holiday: It's not that hard. You know, and instead they had to sort of put you through a kind of training school for the life that, you know, if you didn't have certain skills was awaiting you and then they succeeded so much in that that you became extraordinary instead of ordinary. Thank you. No, that's great. It's absolutely right. It's super interesting to think about. And it's such a fun thought experiment because you don't realize it. Similarly to how we were talking about that oftentimes you don't realize maybe how things add up over time until you get to a point that's easily understood or easily marked.

57:04in the same way that you don't realize how much of your life is tied to certain parts of your identity until you take a real step back and think about it. And I don't think of myself as just a disabled person. When I think of myself throughout the day, I don't think I have one leg and two fingers all the time. That doesn't cross my mind. But then when you really take a step back and think about how many parts of my life and personality and character and upbringing has been tied to navigating something that is such a big part of my physical life, it's super interesting. You know, who am I without that?

57:39Ryan Holiday: Yeah, you think you want it to go a certain way or you want to be dealt a certain hand and it doesn't really matter what you think because you don't get a say. Exactly. But it turns out that oftentimes what you got, if you respond right, turns out to be exactly the right thing. It all impacts who you become. Yeah. And so that's a great point. My dad said that I was doing this radio interview when I was a young kid and I was maybe 10 or 11. And they asked me this question. They said, if you had the opportunity to go back and change your disability, would you do it? And my dad was there. It was the first time I had ever been asked a question like that.

58:14And I looked the host dead in the eyes and I was like, absolutely not. And my dad said it was really special for him to hear that.

58:24Ryan Holiday: Yeah. Because that had me and I had really come around to accepting who I was and in fact, loving that part of myself. Sure. And it's like, now you have the weight of it. as opposed to them. Right. You know what I mean? Like they took you to a certain point and now you're walking on your own, like sort of metaphorically. And if I had the opportunity to go back, I wouldn't because that's how appreciative I am for the person that I've become. Oh, that's beautiful. That's, they're like, he's going to be all right. Yeah. You want to go check out some books? Yeah, let's do it. eight