Christina Pazsitzky, Tom Segura, Whitney Cummings, Drew Michael, Pete Holmes, and Katherine Blanford on Comedy and Philosophy

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2:05Welcome to the weekend edition of The Daily Stoic. Each weekday, we bring you a meditation inspired by the ancient Stoics, something to help you live up to those four Stoic virtues of courage, justice, temperance, and wisdom. And then here on the weekend, we take a deeper dive into those same topics. philosophers, we explore at length how these stoic ideas can be applied to our actual lives and the challenging issues of our time. Here on the weekend, when you have a little bit more space, when things have slowed down, be sure to take some time to think, to go for a walk, to sit with your journal, and most importantly, to prepare for what the week ahead may bring.

2:58Hey, it's Ryan. Welcome to another weekend episode of the Daily Stoked Podcast. I was down at the beach in Florida like exactly a year ago. I'm going for a run, looking at the beach, the ocean's like glass. I'm just in that little limbo period right before the new year. It's just one of my favorite times of the year. And I recognize this person. I thought they looked really familiar. And then I recognized it. It's this comedian who I follow on Instagram. And then I checked out their thing. And yeah, they posted a picture. It was them. I wasn't able to say anything on the run. I was too in the zone.

3:36And by the time I passed, it was too late. But yeah, it turned out it was the wonderful comedian, Catherine Blanford, who I had on the podcast. I guess this would have been late January, early February of 2023. She was one of the first in-person guests on the Daily Stoke podcast. Now she's not the guest today, because I'm having multiple guests, I think it's really important that we don't just see Stoicism as this dour, unfun, mirthless thing. In fact, the Stoics were funny. One of the things I've talked about with the different comedians that I've had on the podcast over the years has been that one of the Stoics, Chrysippus, died of laughter.

4:15How funny is that? And so in today's episode, I wanted to bring on, I wanted to bring you a collection of some of the best comedians that I've had on the podcast. We talk about ego and discipline, procrastination, memento mori, and why some of the funniest jokes come from a dark place. My guests today are gonna be Christina P, Tom Segura, Whitney Cummings, Catherine Blanford. I also had Drew Michael on, who was great. And then way back, I think in 2020, I had Pete Holmes on. So I'm bringing you some selections of all of these folks. We're gonna talk about why the Stokes were funny, what we can learn from them, not just about life, but also what we can learn from these comedians about how we do our work.

4:56And the reason I wanted to put this episode together is that I'm down here again. I just went for that similar run and I thought of that wonderful chance encounter on the street and I decided to throw this compilation together for all of you. And then I finished up my run, had a great six or so miles this morning. I did stop for a little break because I saw these dolphins coming up and I just stood there and watched it. And it struck me, I was the only one standing and watching. Everyone else was too busy talking, drinking, doing whatever. And I just sat and watched the dolphins and I thought, what an amazing life this is.

5:33And I wanted to share that with you. Anyways, I'll get into the episode now. Talk soon.

5:48I can't imagine there's many comedians that have studied philosophy at Oxford. Have you run into any other ones? Nobody's stupid enough to do that. What idiot gets a degree in philosophy? Fucking moron. What drew you to it? Well, I'll tell you, I, you know, I was a very depressive teenager. a lot of anxiety at 13. I had my existential crisis at 13. I realized my parents were fucking worthless. And I was like, I got to raise myself. Yeah. But thankfully I had a bitching pair of tits so I could buy cigarettes at 13 years old. So my life was complete as long as I could smoke cigarettes. And anyway, I had really dark thoughts.

6:27And then I studied philosophy as a freshman. I had my first class and I was like, oh my God. In high school or college? College. Okay, where'd you go? I barely eke through high school. I mean, I don't even think I broke 1 ,000 on my SATs. I couldn't study at home. It was a mess. I get into college just by the skin of my teeth. I went to the University of San Francisco. And I got in on academic probation like such a loser, barely get into college. And I'm in great philosophical questions. And this brilliant man, Dr. Mankus, rest in peace, he's dead now. But he gave me Heidegger's What is Called Thinking, not me, the whole class.

7:01And it was this idea that there's a layer to thinking. What is called thinking? not just thinking, what am I going to eat? Am I going to take a shit? Are we going to have popsicles? Are we going to screw? But like thinking. And my brain fucking lit up. And I was like, this is what I've been waiting for. Answers to the universe. This is it. This is it. And then I just, I was obsessed. I was obsessed. Yeah. And then it taught me how to be, how to think, how to be free. Like Sartre says, the existence precedes essence. I can define my future. I can think for my future. And this is one thing I want to teach my kids.

7:32It's not about what am I going to learn in school, even though that's important. I believe in learning stuff, but to form your life actively, nobody fucking tells you that. Nobody told me like, Hey, if you don't plan your life, life will run you over, man. You need a plan, homie, get into it. And the one good thing about philosophy degree, which I would say if you're for anybody thinking about getting one is that it teaches you to think clearly and to speak clearly. And I know so many dumb motherfuckers in this world who can't even think. I mean it. And I'm fucking bored when I talk to 90%. I love you because I think you're just brilliant.

8:07My eyes glaze over because I'm like, Jesus, I know where this is. I know what you're going to say. And not that I'm so brilliant, but I fucking, I think about dumb things. This is what I love doing. Yeah. And I get very frustrated. You just pick that up from the internet. Do you know what I mean? Like you're like, you're just repeating something you heard someone else say. That's what Jordan Peterson said yesterday on Instagram. You fuck, I know that guy. Yeah, yeah. but I also feel my brain dissolving after having two kids but what was really great about philosophy it teaches you how to think it teaches you how to write it teaches you how to analyze reality and it really got me out of the matrix of how women are supposed to be and stuff too that was another one I was like oh wait oh this is bullshit like oh none of this fucking bad like yeah like I always laugh when people blame society and like and society tells women it's like do they is there a mandate?

8:56Is there a rule? Like you have to be a Kardashian. I understand that it's hard to not compare yourself when you're a young impressionable girl, but it's like, you can also go, I don't need to do that. I can be my own thing. I can do my own thing. Things can be systemically fucked up and unfair and all that. And then you, and the Stoics would say, still you control how you respond to that. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't address the larger problem, but the fact that the system is what it is doesn't uh absolve you the individual from the necessity of figuring out how to navigate it and not be corrupted or broken by or even thrive in it so when i started comedy there were no women and i could have and i'm from i was broken by it i was like oh there's no girls i'm gonna be the only girl at the comedy store and then i went i'm the only girl at the comedy store like home alone you know and he's like what is it they oh my i made my parents disappear.

9:54I made my parents disappear. And it was like the party moment where I was like, I'm the only one in the game. Great fuckers. Watch me run. Yeah. You don't like it. Suck my tits. I don't care. I don't like you. I don't care. You know, Dr. Drew's who introduced me to, same thing. I was in a philosophy. I was taking a class on Aristotle. It was like ethics in the meaning of life. Yeah. And I mean, Aristotle is great. And we were, we did Aristotle. We did Camus. Wait, who taught your class? Dr. Drew? No, no, no. I went to Riverside and I was just taking a regular philosophy class with a philosophy professor who's interesting and I'm reading it.

10:28And then I went to this thing. I got invited because I was writing for the college newspaper. I got invited to this thing in Hollywood that Dr. Drew was speaking at. And so I asked him if he had a book recommendation. He recommended Epictetus. So that's how I ended up being introduced to the Stoics. And I was like, this is way better than what I'm learning in school. This is like actually usable shit from like real people in the real world, as opposed to just abstract questions. Uh, and yeah, it just totally changed. What, what, like, how did it, it grabbed you by the nuts? What did it, what was it?

11:01Do you know, there's this passage in meditation that I think hit me, especially as a college kid. Um, he just talks about like how hard it is to wake up in the morning, you know, like he's like, he's like, He literally goes, he's like, at dawn when you awake, and then he like interrupts himself. And he goes, but it's warm under the covers. And he goes, is this what you were put here to do? You know, to huddle under the covers and be warm? And like, so he has this like dialogue with himself about getting out of bed in the morning. And that's not what we think of philosophy as being. Philosophy is like, how do you know if you have free will?

11:35Or, you know, like it's questions that are interesting, but it's not like, let me help you get out of bed early. You know, I just, I fucking loved that. And it's so readable and accessible. Especially the Greeks, the Stoics. Yes. Yeah, the Stoics especially. And like, it's because Mark Surrealis was writing to himself. Like, and so it feels like he's writing to you. He's not writing to the audience. Wow. He's writing to you. And there's a parallel to comedy there in that like the most specific comedy is the most universal. Yeah. And so here you have a philosophy text that wasn't written as a philosophy text.

12:15It's notes in a diary that somehow becomes the most universal and, you know, sort of memorable of philosophy texts. Yeah. Because he wasn't thinking of you. He was trying to be honest with himself. So there's no, it's totally stripped down. There's no performative element in it. There's no artifice. It's just him talking to himself. Yeah, because once you get self-conscious, it gets inauthentic. Yeah. Once you start thinking about the audience too much, like there's a certain level you have to, where you're like, I have to explain this premise properly. Is this working? Yeah, like they're going to tell you if it's working or not really, the laughter.

12:53But yeah.

12:58so when i got signed by a uh a big time management company i was like oh man it's like and this was like who everyone was saying like you got to try to get with these people i was like really feeling myself yeah i was supposed to start a on a new show i was working in post-production and this was going to be like a pretty big post you work in for set runs like this would be a 12 week or 16 week kind of run and i was gonna i got a promotion and they were going to give me overtime for the first time yeah and they would work us like dogs and i just walked into my post supervisor and i was like hey man you know this thing happened yesterday i signed with a manager i was like so i'm not going to be able to like you i've made it i've made it because i have a manager yeah and then i remember i call i was like yeah yeah he goes oh you have an audition for this movie tomorrow it's first time i had like a big audition and i was like yeah i uh i quit my job and he goes what i quit my job he goes why i go because i'm working with you now and he was like oh okay um well we'll see how that like he didn't know what to say yeah and i was like oh man i i just cut like my life support no i i feel like i accidentally did that like like i bought my first house like with my my pay stubs not my like 1099 sure you know what i mean so i like i was like a regular person living life and then i had this artistic thing on the side that eventually overtook it yeah and yeah you want like you want to give yourself as much runway as possible and i don't think people it's like if you blow up your life to pursue this thing which sometimes you have to do to get out of stuff sure but it's like you're not going to have the leverage to not do shit that you don't want to do or that you shouldn't do because you don't have any money and you literally need to live you know like i i got offered the first book my first sort of offer to do a book came in like 2008 or 2009 oh and the obstacle which which i ultimately did with the obstacle is the way but the obstacles away didn't come out until 2014.

15:09Yeah, I was going to say, okay. And Robert Greene, who was my sort of mentor, was like, you have to turn this down. And I was like, are you kidding me? He's like, first off, it's a shitty deal. Like they're offering you no money up front. It's not like a big publisher. Like he's like, but that all aside, content-wise, like you're not ready to do this. And that was extremely hard. Like you're getting your shot and I have to like be like, I'll wait for a later shot that might not come around. It's the hardest thing. It was so hard, but he was totally right. Because if I was, if I'm now looking back at the obstacle and what is the way I'm like, I'm a little young, it would have been insane to write that at 22 or something like that.

15:49You're lucky that he told you, but you're luckier that you listened. Yes. And I, it's a hard, I remember a very similar lesson. Everything was, there was a period where now it's like specials come out every week and you can self-produce and it's easier to, and it's fantastic. for those comedians and also for stand-up comedy. It's great that you have so much coming out. But some people shouldn't be putting them out. Yes. What happened before specials was albums, right? Yeah. And so in like the early 2000s, it's like as albums, albums were the hottest probably in the late 90s, early 2000s. And then it's a slow thing.

16:26It aligned with music where like album sales just started to decline. Yeah, but there were people who had like number one album. There were some big people. Big, big ones. so I remember right when I was like I'm probably only that's why it's a it was good that I listened also I was like five years in maybe and I was working this weekend with Dave Attell who's like he's every comics favorite my favorite comedian of all time I mean he's just he's amazing and I was a huge fan yeah I couldn't believe I was working with him and throughout the weekend we're like you know just talking about this and that and I was like yeah you know I'm trying to figure out whether I um I should do it out I think I should do an album you know you think I should do an album and he goes uh do you have an hour you're in love with and I go no right he's like like I think there's your answer he just kind of walked away and I was like oh yeah like just just because somebody goes you can yes record one yeah doesn't mean like that that's literally when you should go, let's record or let's shoot this is when you go, oh, this is fully cooked and ready to go.

17:34And anything other than that, like people are getting now these opportunities to shoot these things. And you're like, hey man, like, have you been like, have you even been working this hour? Yeah, sure. Like it's not, it's not ready. Seneca had this word, euthymia, which he said is the sense of the path that you're on. And he said, not being distracted by the paths that crisscross yours, especially from those who are hopelessly lost. And that's extremely hard to have at any age. Like, but I think younger, you know, you're like, well, someone's doing this and someone's doing this because you're measuring yourself against all these other people.

18:11But then as you, even as you become successful, now all of a sudden there's all these things that you can do. And it takes an immense amount of discipline. I think also confidence, just like sort of self-awareness and sort of strategy to go like, here's when I'm, here are the things I want to do. Here's when I want to do them. And like not really paying attention to what other people are doing or everything that's coming, you know, into your inbox. It takes all those things. Right. And then because you also, that comparison thing, it also just shifts. You just compare yourself to new people yeah more successful people sure people who are doing incredible things but i also feel like you get this if you're not too caught up in that chase and in your own ego and everything you actually learn to like really settle into the fact that you you intellectually grasp like oh like he's i'm not comparing myself to what ryan's doing whatever he he just did like he's on his own path and you kind of get this thing where you're like you're not you find that it doesn't make you go like what about me like you know like you did i did do that at 25 and like now when i hear about that i don't go like like what am i gonna do you know like well what it's also helpful to realize um like some people are profoundly unhappy and then other people don't like doing the thing so So like, I try to remind myself, like, I like writing.

19:39I like writing books. That's what I enjoy doing. So I didn't get into writing as a means to an end to do something else. That is the end. That is the end, yeah. And so, yes, there's definitely different opportunities and different ways to monetize it. And some of that helps you do the thing. But if I'm like, well, so-and-so just started a company or so-and-so's speaking this many dates a year, I go, that's all great. But my main thing was writing. Like the reward for getting successful at this thing should not be that I don't get to do the thing anymore. Right. If the reward for me is doing the thing.

20:12Yeah. If you hate it, like I'm sure there's stand-up comics who don't, who are good at stand-up comedy, but they love acting. Yeah, yeah. Or they love writing or whatever. So for them, it's they're getting in and then they're getting out. Yeah, totally. But if you don't want to get out, don't follow the people who are getting out or you're going to get out and be unhappy. I've seen both examples. it's fascinating to watch because you can tell the ones who like the first acting thing that comes on they're like I'll see you guys later and like and they're fine because they're happy with that what's more interesting almost is the people who turn down some of those opportunities that come when you have stand up success and you're like you don't want to do that and they're like I don't want to do that shit and you're like really you almost can't believe it at first because we're also kind of we're all brought up now it's shifted so if you're in your 20s now doing stand up You don't have the same kind of model that we had.

21:05But our model was like, you do stand-up so that you can get a sitcom. That was the win. Now people turn down those things left and right. But you're also definitely not supposed to say no to things that could pay you a lot of money. Sure. That's stupid, irresponsible. The other thing, though, that is crazy that some people still are unaware of is that high-level big-time touring comedians make way more money. Sure. And even some of those talent agents who represent actors are just kind of learning this. They're like, yeah, you know, that comedian is going to lose money doing your thing. Lose. Yeah.

21:46He has to really want to do it.

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24:06Did you know this term art monsters? No. Oh, some female writer's talking where she's like, I want to be an art monster, meaning like only the art and fuck everything and everyone else. Because that's what basically male artists have been. It's called a narcissist, but okay. Male artists have been allowed to be this for basically all of humanity. You know, your Hemingways. Sure, sure. But like, they made amazing stuff, but then they left this like wake of destruction and pain and broken people behind them. Yeah. And in a way, it's easier to be that. Sure. It's way easier to be that. It's not necessarily more fun in the long run.

24:42Also, paint back then was very toxic. They were all high. They were all like brain dead. Right. They were like drinking out of lead. They were just inhaling lead all day. Let's give them a little break. But, but you know what I mean? This idea of like, I think it's. Radical selfishness or something. Yeah. But, but just like. At the end of your life, if you have like this stack of this work, but it came at this cost. You're not going to be like, oh, it's totally worth it. I think it's also knowing when to do that. I did that in my 20s hard. I was not fit to be in a relationship with anybody. I was not the person that someone that I would have wanted would have been attracted to.

25:22I think I had some kind of like Darwinian understanding of like, my 20s is when to go the hardest, ambition-wise, and to be that selfish because otherwise I'm just going to be selfish in a relationship with somebody. I'm just going to hurt somebody. I'm going to lie to someone. I'm going to cheat on someone. You know what I mean? and I worked like an animal in my 20s. And then in my 30s, I kind of tried to find balance relatively unsuccessfully. And now I'm kind of like, oh, I think it's okay to be kind of, let yourself be that selfish in your 20s and kind of know when to, again, update your software.

25:54But what if you didn't make it? Not like you didn't make it career-wise, which could also work. But like, you can also pick up habits or make decisions that are catastrophic, right? Or fatal even, right? So it's like the idea of being like profoundly unbalanced for a period and then balancing out, it worked in your case. But I'm sure there are people you met or were peers of yours that haven't come out of that spiral. And maybe they can't come out of that spiral. They can't pull themselves out of that dive. And it's interesting because it's like you say peers and I think it also helps to go, and someone said this to me very early and I'm very, I'm, this is embarrassing, but I'm going to say it.

26:37I made vision boards, cut out in magazines, printed out comedy central presents on a printer at Kinko's, cut it out, glued it on speaking of inhaling chemicals. I do love rubber cement. Maybe that was why. And this is what I want. Like I was very, I was reading the secret. I was like, and look, I'm not saying necessarily like the secret is real. A lot of people I know that got into it did get successful. Maybe it's just the kind of person that would buy that book is already the kind of person that's working hard. It's like, it's like vitamins. I know they work, but it's also, if you're the kind of person buying vitamins, you're probably taking care of yourself in a lot of other ways too.

27:16So is it the vitamins or is the other variables, whatever. So I was just obsessed with like putting it out there saying it, I'm going to do this. there's just no other option. I was very calculated about it. And someone said to me, cause I was like, Oh, who should I put on my vision board? Like what people? And someone said, pick three careers that you want. Okay. Not 50, not peers. Cause you can look at someone and go like, Oh, he's doing well. But like, I don't know the whole thing. And just do what they did. I picked Ellen was one of them. John Stewart was one of them. And Roseanne was one of them.

27:53And I I studied how long they worked at it. Like, cause that was back in the day when you would, you know, be a comic for 20 years before you would get the tonight show. You know, now you can kind of like do some TikToks and get some visibility and, you know, you can get famous, but you might not be great yet, whatever. So I was like, oh, I have 20 years. Like I have to work hard for 20 years. Like I already kind of had that. And I was like, I need to turn 20 years into 15 years. That's too long. So I was like double psycho. But I think it's important, like when people are trying to figure out the career they want or like who to compete with or who to aspire to.

28:23like don't pick don't look at everybody yeah just look at like two or three people yeah that helped me because when people are like well so-and-so's doing this i'm like i don't i'm looking here right this is the person i chose to emulate so i just i can't when i see when i look back on that period it's like when i was in my 20s i was basically working sort of three simultaneous careers and i definitely think i fast forward you know you get your 10 000 hours i was doing them three hours at a time. It was great. But at the same time, how much of it was actually moving the needle and how much of it was my intensity and not being able to, do you know what I mean?

29:02Like, like, like, could I have, could I have actually done 70 % as much and ended up in the exact same place? Probably did all these things that I thought were these sort of live or die moments or like everything was counting. It was all in my head. You know what you guys, here's, this is this is what I'm going to say about you and I'm going to say it right to the camera I can tell who a person is uh based on the part of their Christmas tree that faces the wall okay do you decorate the part of the Christmas tree that faces the wall or not okay are you the person that just decorates around just where everybody kind of sees it sure but that if a kid goes to go get something that's fallen they're gonna there's no magic in the back.

29:47So you think you should decorate the whole tree? Yes. Okay. So we're in a studio where you see there's a billion of these books. There's tons of books behind the cameras that no one can see. Okay. You're that, you're the person that goes all around the track. So you just said like, could you get it gotten away with 70 %? No. Cause people would have walked in here and been like, so you just stopped there. Well, it doesn't technically go all the way, but you, but it's, you don't have, you didn't have to do that part. Do you know what I'm saying? I get, no, I don't mean like I could have phoned it in.

30:17I'm just saying like there was a, there was. But there's, I don't think our brains work that way. That's what I mean. I think your brain was, it was just for me. You're either a cheater or you're not. You're either the kind of person that does the right thing when no one's like, I think it's important to know yourself about that when you want to cheat. And you're like, I could totally get away with this, but then I would know. But see, I've also been to workaholics meetings or many of them. And part, part of the reason you're going is because you don't have a healthy, a healthy relationship of what you should and shouldn't be doing.

30:46Sure. Is it a compulsion? Does it stop? Is if it's diminishing marginal returns or if it's a, if it stops being fun, right. Which is a trick thing for work because like for most addictions, they say like, okay, you know, it's an addiction. If it stops being fun and becomes an obligation, right. Is it making your life unmanageable, but works tricky. Cause you're like, well, it is for now, but if I just finished this book, then I'm gonna get this money and it's not going to be unmanageable, you know, right. It's a tricky one to know, but But I always just say, go balls to the wall, because if it doesn't work out, you'll always know you want balls to the wall.

31:17Yeah. Yeah. I just like I just think of the things that I thought mattered so much. And in retrospect, they were all part of a larger inability to sort of separate what was really important from what wasn't in a kind of a compulsion, like rooted in a in a kind of anxiety and also a need to prove something to people. what else though? I get to move through life when people are like, so I have imposter syndrome. I'm like, I don't, I actually believe I deserve more than I have. You know what I mean? Like I see people that are like, I'm just not sure if I deserve that. I'm like, I don't have to live like that at all.

31:53You know, I, I, I don't want anything I don't deserve. I like knowing I went a little harder than I needed to. Um, I like knowing that I got everything. Honestly, I, I, I kind of, now that I look back at that, because I could easily say like, oh, that was kind of pathological how hard you worked. Yeah. I'm like, I just don't believe in wasted time like that when it comes to, you know, it's like Johnny Carson used to say, there's no such thing as a wasted written joke because a B, like, you know, a B joke that you maybe don't, that you've written that doesn't work on stage, extemporaneously it's an A joke.

32:26So I have notebooks of jokes that have never gone on stage, but like I'll use them at some point. Or also just writing them was itself good. Yeah. Yeah, totally. It was a rep. Yeah. It's like saying like, oh, like running that extra mile every day, you know, when I was training, like was a waste of time. I could have just ran five and I ran six. It's like, well, it's kind of hard to tell because you're also here. How can you say that it didn't work?

32:56Well, I find that like, so when I read, like, I'm always like, oh, I like this. I like this. I like this. I just collect it. And then once I know what I want, like, then I'm like, okay, I'm writing a book about X. I go back through everything I find. And I found stuff that works for that idea that I collected before I knew I was looking for that thing. Right, right, right. So it's all floating around. Like if your special is around a theme, you probably think back to jokes that were throwaways, like from three years ago that suddenly worked for that theme. And so you didn't know you were cute.

33:32You were you were inching your way towards there, but you sort of subconsciously were. Yeah, I think I think that's definitely true. And but I also think that like, yeah, there is sometimes sometimes it maybe works the other way where the things that have worked or would work or the kinds of, you know, subjects or perspectives or, you know, sort of idiosyncrasies that you can observe the things that that that would work. maybe like, I guess I'm in a place now where I think I'm finding like the things that I'm noticing are actually sort of contradictory to the types of things that maybe like the aggregator would want in my mind.

34:19And so it creates like this sort of upending and maybe that's growth. And maybe that is, you know, challenging my own sort of frame of reference, but it's like, sometimes the things that I find myself noticing or reacting to or relating to or being moved towards are things that somewhat or or sometimes completely contradict or negate or challenge the the precepts that kind of maybe would facilitate what I was used to doing and so I think that you know I again I don't know if that's like artistic growth if that's an inherent limitation of comedy like maybe like the idea that something has to end in a punchline is inherently limiting like if you were writing a book and you're like every sentence or every paragraph has to come back around or or generate this this this the visual or or logical clash that is required for comedy to emerge then you would be it's like you know you're both hands side of the underback where it's just like, you can't, you can't really get to what you're trying to get to if everything has to be stuck in this, in this one thing.

35:30And so as somebody who I think, you know, I think I got into comedy, not necessarily to make people laugh or to even be the funniest, but because, you know, I had certain things that I thought about and wanted to talk about and explore. I think for a while there was a way to do that, you know, on the basis of comedy. But I think like as time goes on, that just feels more and more and more limiting. And the things that I find myself recognizing and the things that the patterns that I see in the world and the things that I deduce as true are not necessarily, you know, congruent to like joke structure or whatever else.

36:04I think sometimes they sometimes completely defy joke structure. Well, like I think it's probably short term maladaptive, right? Because like if you're like a character, instead of being a person, you're like a comedian character who only looks for the world in terms of like redneck jokes or this kind of joke or whatever, then like to have the opposite of tunnel vision is maladaptive, right? Because you're sort of going through and instead of seeing just what you can use, you're seeing all sorts of stuff. But it is much more intellectually honest and more likely to allow for long-term growth, long-term connection and probably, I think ultimately, a more diverse audience, right?

36:49Because like I said, for instance, with stoicism, I was initially interested in its impact on sort of personal development, personal growth, productivity, and, you know, like how it would help you as an individual. But increasingly, I've been much more interested in what the philosophy sort of offers and demands sort of ethically, collectively, politically, etc. Now, the irony is this is coming at exactly the time that the audience is biggest and the audience has grown primarily because people are interested in productivity and resiliency and all the personal stuff. So it's this clash where you know if you were just delivering straight down the middle stuff, it would be better for you in the short term.

37:41But it would also be, I think, creatively bankrupt and then in some ways morally bankrupt. But also, I think, have a shorter shelf life because it is artificially constrained and you would also burn out with it faster. Right. Well, I think what you're talking about and forgive me if I'm misinterpreting, but like it's sort of I think it's similar. I think we're similar in the sense that trying to align the professional and personal pursuits so that they are not necessarily at odds with one another. you know I mean I guess there's like an inherent you know static when it comes to like pursuing truth or pursuing you know in your case a very specific you know discipline of truth you know or study of it and and then obviously with the necessities of commercialization and monetization and stuff like that.

38:39Uh, it's funny. I don't know if you, uh, how much of, of my world you catch wind of, but it kind of in, in the vein of, of, you know, the, the, the, the clash of stoicism or comedy and, you know, the kind of marketplace. Um, uh, I, I, and I don't know if he is doing this with a wink. I don't think he is, but, uh, Chris Rock has a new tour that he's going on. um and the the name of it is called uh ego death and so his his his poster says ego death world tour and to me it's just like i don't i like that's too ironic and too hilarious to not be a joke but i don't think it is a joke like i think it is earnestly saying like ego death and them but it is the world tour and it's just like ego death world tour to me is the funniest that's like a david foster wallace thing like that's not supposed to happen that's supposed to be you know what the past viewed as like the sort of parody or satirical outcome of this modality and and um you know it's it's like zen buddhism the ride it's like yeah it's just not Well, I was thinking about that the other day.

40:03I was actually, I was playing with my kids and I was laying down upstairs and we have this game room. And like we have some posters from my books. Like, you know, like when you do a book signing, they give you like a big cut out of the thing. And I was like, hey, can I have that? And they're like, we're just going to throw it away. So I have it on the wall. And I noticed it caught me that on my first book to like where I am now, my name has gotten bigger. right right it went right in the middle one of those books is ego is the enemy and then i was like well is that symbolic and then i was like but actually also it's a market thing right because like when i published zero books the thing that mattered was the title of the book like is the title of this book interesting right now it's like it's me after i sold yeah after i'd sold more books.

40:54Now it's a tension between is the title drawing the reader or is the fact that I also have fans who exist in the world and they would be more like, are they going to be interested in a book on stillness? Like thinking about the overlapping diagrams is, is a book called Stillness is the Key going to sell, like attract the audience, sell better. Stillness is the key name of author you have to like zoom in to see or is it going to be oh i've liked previous books from this person and i want to so it's this weird tension right and actually my publisher on ego is the enemy they were like what if we did this thing where like sort of an artistic statement your name wasn't on the cover and i was like well first of all that kind of sucks because i wrote it right like i i should the painter should sign their work it's not an egotistical thing it's just like own, own your shit.

41:49But also like, is that better? Like it, which is a better business decision, right? Like at brass, not even business, what is a better getting people to read a book, which instinctually they don't want to read. And so you have that tension of like, because it's a capitalistic commercial thing. It's not just what makes sense artistically or philosophically. It's also like what will work to deliver the medicine right right the the logical extension of your name getting bigger is like the book tour becomes like an arena show with pyrotechnics it's like you know like everyone needs to learn stillness and just like with you know like a like a like a fighter jet flying overhead and just like everyone's cheering and they have foam fingers of you and like pictures of your face on their t-shirt and like we love you and you're like I'm just preaching.

42:43So to me, I mean, that's obviously like the hyperbolic, crazy, satirical extreme of this idea of, you know, a philosophy or a set of ideas that are somewhat not compatible with the sort of like capitalistic enterprise, but then having to exist inside of a capitalist landscape. It's like, there's, yeah, I think the tension is going to be inherent. I don't think there is like, like it will play out in different microcosmic ways where it's like the name versus the title. And like, yeah, it would be a statement to be, but then, but like even the publisher is like, there's so many layers that we're trying to like trick ourselves into thinking we're absorbing actual truth, but it's really like just a better version of a commercial.

43:28And it's like the idea would be like, oh, you publish this book that has no author. And that's the thing. And then like, oh, secretly, it's this guy who, you know, and it's like so it is like this this sort of like constant trying to one up the marketing aspect of it. And something you see now, I mean, on social media is that people are so inherently brand conscious. And but like, but the, you know, with performers and with authors and artists and creators or whatever you want to call them, like the, they are the product. They are also the marketing brand. Like they are the logo and the product and the team and everything.

44:12And so, you know, the delineation of like, you know, like we've gotten rid of ads. It's like we didn't. It's just the people just do themselves. So it's like if you were watching like a, you know, a Simpsons episode back in the day, it would be like if in the middle of the episode, Marge just started talking about like Tide Pods and you were like, what is going on?

44:38you probably heard the headlines about all the different cuts to foreign aid and food benefits this is having a profound impact on the world's poorest people and the world's poorest communities but you know just hearing about that that's not what stoicism is about stoicism is to me what you're going to do about it and that's where give well comes in give well is trusted by tens of thousands of donors each year because they provide free and independent research that helps you understand how to have a big impact. GiveWell has spent the last 18 years researching global health and poverty alleviation, and they direct funding to the highest impact opportunities.

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47:51how much of that is a result of the fact that I worked really, really hard the last couple years and said yes to everything. And so now, you know, like the difference between the, what is it, the cricket and the ant, the fable, it's like sort of had prepared for winter. I'm curious, like, to get down to the specifics, like as a person in the entertainment business, like, one of the reasons you're probably able to take a break from comedy is that you you built a podcast for many, many years, which is a sort of independent income stream. And you don't have to, you know, tour constantly the way that another comedian would.

48:27So do you think about having kind of prepared, diversified or prepared yourself as also being an advantage? Well, it's funny. I think, you know, one of the tropes that we see in movies and even in video games, it was in Red Dead Redemption where the outlaws are talking about one last job and then And they're going to go to, I think they're going to go to Tahiti. And that's so common in movies. And we know they're not going to do it. And we know they're going to die before it happens or whatever it is. And that is a real, the reason we like that story is that's the lie that the ego is always telling us not to get too deep or anything.

49:06But it's true. That's what your brain, another way of saying, your personality is always sort of negotiating with this deeper part of you. it's so absurd sometimes i think about that i'm like why are there factions in my brain like why why does my brain make requests like it'll request water it will demand diarrhea uh and then like sometimes it'll like insist on comfort or self-soothing or whatever it is and i'm like who's negotiating with who like who is the command center that hears the thought you should have some water and you say, I don't want to drink water before bed. I don't want to have to get up and pee.

49:48And so who are you negotiating with? It's just such a strange thing that's so ordinary that none of us are talking about. It's one of those things where I'm like, that is so fascinating and yet it's so boring to most people. So what I'm saying is there's a part of me that goes, I'm constantly laughing at myself because I go, okay, I'll do one more big TV project. And then I'll have the little house. Then I'm good. Yeah, then I'll be good. And there is a practical, there is a side in its defense. I want to be like, what we're talking about, that is the cricket, if that's the one that saves for winter.

50:29There is something about one more big project, certainly making things easier to settle down or to stop working as much. So there's some logic to it, but that's what makes it sort of dangerous. It's really tempting to constantly get lost and those fantasies of like three more months and then I'll retire, is two guys, you and I bonded over the fact that like, I'm not a sneaker guy, I'm not a car guy, I'm not a wine guy, I'm not an art guy. I don't even know what the other things are, but I'm not any of those guys either. I like hanging out with my wife. I like hanging out with my baby. I like the thrill that I get from creativity, from writing and producing.

51:13I enjoy that, but that can be done on my own. I'm finding more and more. So the money goes into savings. You said that on my podcast. You're just like, I don't know what it is. I just want that number to go up. Well, that's the capitalistic myth. It's like a corporation is a failure if it doesn't do better than it did the year before. There's no idea of it doing as well as it did the year before. That's called plateauing, and it's negative and it freaks out shareholders from what I understand of business. We're seeing that there is a plateau and it's okay. And it's not only okay, it's beautiful.

51:49And you can actually start spending that money. Sometimes like, it sounds like I'm saying, oh, my wife sure is good at spending my money. That is not what I'm saying at all. She has taught me how to go like, what is the point of having this imaginary number? It's an imaginary number. if you're not going to occasionally going to go, whatever, on a vacation. Let's just say that. Go on a vacation. So this is what's happening is the rubber's meeting the road. The imaginary number becomes actually a useful parachute. And we can tinker and play with not just the quality of our life, but the style of our life.

52:30No, I totally agree. And the wife thing is interesting because it's like for you, like what I, what, what has held me back in the past financially is like, I know what I had to do to get the money. I know how rare it is to get paid, to write things, to just like pull thoughts out of your head and have to not just have people pay you a lot of money, but I remember how many years I had to work for free before anyone gave me a dollar. Right. So it's, it's like, you know, that your profession is inherently insane and in economically irrational. So like that can make you very precious about the money.

53:08And I had sort of two breakthroughs. One, yeah, my wife's like, no, we have the money. Let's spend it to her. It's just, you know, it's the same as if I made it in the stock market or, you know, if it had been given to me by a rich relative. And, and then the other thing is I met some professional athletes and those professional athletes, do an even more economically insane thing, and we're not as precious about it. And so I think one of the weird things about this crisis is also it's somewhat freeing in the sense that I can't even calculate how much money I've lost because I'm not checking my stock portfolio on a regular basis.

53:45It's impossible to know what opportunities would have been coming your way in May to do jobs in, you know, August that are not going to happen anymore. So, but, but the point is the losses are so severe. And so like, what's the point of thinking of them? Yes. So, so in a way you just like, stop thinking about money. You're just like, things cost what they cost. I need things to survive. And, and you said it almost like, it's like a, when, when, when people get their arm cut off, they're not like, does that hurt? It's just like your whole body like takes care of the pain part. It just like shuts off that part of your brain.

54:22Yeah, that's right. My therapist said something similar, like something was going bad in my life back when I was 28. My first marriage had fallen apart. And I was like, it's so weird that I don't care that this other major thing has gone wrong. And he's like, yeah, you just got bit by a shark. You don't care about the jellyfish sting. But there was like, I even, I think I said something like this in the book, like being depressed and being sad, there's kind of a snowed in comfort to it. I'm not saying it was pleasant, but there was even when it was happening. And this is before all my spiritual stuff.

54:58There's still a simplicity to it where you go, all I have to do is be divorced guy, divorce guy drinks, divorce guy eats Chinese food, divorce guy cries, watching the Sopranos. You kind of get your script delivered to you every day, and it's easy. Nobody expects anything from you. So there's kind of a weird equanimity to that. Similar here, there's a real forced surrender to it. Surrender, of course, being a huge part of my spiritual identity. Surrender and suffering is a big part of my spiritual identity. and suffering, I use Richard Rohr's definition, suffering is when things aren't in your control.

55:42So it doesn't just mean like, ow, ow, ow, or boo-hoo, I'm sad. It just means things aren't in your control. And when you can't rely on yourself to solve something or change something, that's when you learn to, this is straight Richard Rohr, by the way, you learn to dig deeper and dig into a more infinite source that is a part of you. Some people call that God. Some people call it consciousness. Some people call it the universe. Whatever it is, that is sort of where a lot of truth is hiding for me. Something you said, I really want to say this to you because I think we're similar in this way. The thing that makes our addictions, money addiction, power addiction, influence addiction, being a good worker, even the addiction to honoring the time you've put in to get into your exclusive field.

56:37And that is a type of addiction. the problem when I talk to that part of my brain that tells me how special it is that I'm a comedian that tells me things like well you're playing pro ball and your salary is inflated but it's not going to last forever so you should do as much as you can he's right that's what's so fucking tricky about this puzzle is if you sit down and have a rational conversation with that part of you that wants to say yes to things and travel and book and get the jobs, they're right. And I'm an Enneagram 3. That means it's an achiever. And one of the blind spots of the Enneagram 3 is that if it works, it's true.

57:23We don't really care about objective truth or big truth. If it works, it's true. And I can just hear my father, who I believe is also 3, saying like, well, what's something that's true that doesn't work? I was just having this fake conversation with him this afternoon. And I was like, friendship? Friendship doesn't work. You know what I mean? It doesn't work. You make a friend. And yeah, they give you some good time, someone to watch a movie with. But then guess what? They call you when they're heartbroken. And now they're eating into your time. You know what I'm saying? I'm not saying this is how I feel.

57:59I'm saying that doesn't work. It doesn't help. It doesn't make you produce. It doesn't enhance necessarily. It just becomes like a crying baby, like somebody that you have to feed and help and nourish. The same is true of love doesn't work. Yeah, they have no utility, but they're very valuable. That's exactly right. And I struggle so hard. I thrive in utility. I thrive in things that work. I have a really hard time and maybe you do too. It's like I had plans to see my friend Michael Gungor and he's a musician and we just kept putting it off because he was holing up finishing an album and I was holing up finishing a script.

58:43So the part of my brain that's utilitarian was like, that's right. That script could potentially delight millions and it will make you money and it will make you important and it will make you feel good. He's right. But Finally, I saw Michael last night and I'm in an incredible mood. You know what I mean? Like it was such a, it didn't work. It didn't make me money. It didn't even like, I can't even say it lowered my stress necessarily, but it probably did actually, now that I say that. It was friendship. And that is something that I'm trying to learn. I'm trying to learn how to be a better friend, try to be a more embodied person.

59:22and all these things that don't necessarily make like economic or power or sense, but that makes sense what we say in the heart.

59:37Okay, so there was a stoic, his name was Chrysippus, and he's supposedly one of the only people to ever die of laughter. Do you believe that's possible? I think Chrysippus. Chrysippus. Chrysippus. I think Chrysippus had a heart attack or was doing whatever synthetic drug was around then and had a good old laugh that tipped it off. You never laughed so hard that you thought you could die?

1:00:07No. No. No. The joke partly survives to us. So apparently he was like sitting on his front porch and a donkey walks up and he starts eating out of the garden. And the person, you know, rushes up to get their donkey. And he says, does your donkey want some wine to wash down those figs? And then he starts laughing at his own joke. And he laughs so hard that he keels over and dies. So it's kind of the ultimate, like, you had to be there because it makes no sense. Okay, Chrysippus, I know what happened. Okay. Because that joke is bad. Yes. That's not a joke. You died of embarrassment? That's not a joke is what that is.

1:00:52First of all, let me tell you what's happening across his life. Okay. Everything is shit. Okay. Everything is so, this is actually my favorite emotion though. Okay. Everything in his life has just exploded and then crumbled to rubble. Mm-hmm. And it was that moment, you know, when everything seems like it's just the worst. and you have that realization that I'm just going to sit here and just there's nothing to be done anymore. It's all rubble and you're sitting in just the grief of it all and then something silly happens. And, you know, it's like when you laugh after crying a ton or, you know, you're sitting in your house that's been destroyed by a tornado and something silly happens and everyone laughs.

1:01:39Or when you're laughing in the hospital room after somebody's just died. Or like all this terrible stuff has happened And then one more terrible thing happens And you just start laughing maniacally At the absurdity of it That's exactly what happened to him And it was just the dumbest thing Somebody maybe right before that Had choked on some One of somebody he loved choked on wine and died And he goes, you want some wine with that fig? And died From all the major emotions Hitting him at once I think that's what happened Because that's a really bad joke It's the straw that breaks the camel's back Yes.

1:02:12Okay. Yes. All right. That's an interesting theory. I hadn't thought of that theory. But it is my favorite emotion is laughter in the midst of despair. Yes. Yes. Where all... And actually, there's a thing from Seneca where he's talking about like life is terrible. He basically says life is terrible. Yeah. You can cry about it or you can laugh at it. Yeah. Like take your pick. Yeah. It is pretty beautiful and cruel all the time. Yes. Like the raccoon. Well, if you take it personally, it sucks. Yeah. If you're just like, all right. It's nature. Yes. Yeah, and I'm part of nature. I do think it's funny because stoicism has its reputation as being very humorless or very serious or being without emotion.

1:02:57And then have one of the original dudes literally die of laughter. I like that. Oh, yeah. I don't think he was laughing at it because he thought it was the funniest joke in the entire world. unless I'm missing. Sometimes you just can't stop yourself. You know, like, do you know Pete Holmes? Yes, I love Pete Holmes. On his podcast, he has this question. He goes, can you remember the time you laughed the hardest? And it's never usually the funniest thing. It's usually something really dumb or weird or drugs are involved, as you said. But it's not normally like, and now I'm going to tell you the funniest story of all time.

1:03:36Yeah. And you're going to see why I was laughing so hard. Yes. Oh, yeah, yeah. It's always, you had to be there. Yeah, it's always you had to be there. So I'm wondering if it, maybe there was something that would make sense if you were there. Very much. It was the tip of the pyramid of despair for him. That is an interesting take on it, which I would not have thought of that maybe only a comedian would pick up on, which is that, yeah, there's some level of despair or pain or anguish that would explain the enormity of the laughter. Like normal circumstances, you chuckle. Yeah. Yes. That's my favorite kind of comedy is, I love storytelling, but like the story, one of my favorite comedies, Tig Notaro.

1:04:25And she's my top. But most of her stories are just these most, like the most embarrassing, ridiculous moments of her life. The Jeopardy one is amazing. Yes. Where she blew it on Jeopardy. I don't even remember what their guess was, but so bad. It's so obvious. On national television. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's so good. That is her. Wheel of Fortune, right? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, it was Wheel of Fortune. But I know the moment, oh man. And she's so good at sitting in the moment and just letting people kind of sit in the awkwardness with her that you just can't help yourself, but like erupt and latch her because it is kind of uncomfortable.

1:05:12And you feel the embarrassment and whatever. And I think that is the best comedy. Because everybody feels, it humanizes everything. Yes. And it's not, you're like kind of, you're not like degrading somebody or anything else. You're just bringing somebody into a very embarrassing moment or you can be a dark moment. and then like through it all, you kind of give up and then there's always like, I don't know, there's that little moment of laughter at the end. That's just, Bill Burr's great at it. Mm-hmm. You know, where he's just, he's trying so hard to be a good person, but he, you know, he was born with all these angry demons inside.

1:06:01Well, his childhood was fucking horrible. Right, right, right, right. And now he's got a kid and he's trying to be good for the kid and the moment when he's fighting with the toaster in the kitchen And it's just, yeah, I like, I think the funniest moments in those moments of pure laughter and enjoyment come from a dark place before. Yes. There's a joke in meditation. It's not very funny, but Marcus is… Is this as good as the fig one? It's almost as bad. He's talking about this person who's so rich and has so much stuff that they have no place to shit. Like, that their house is so full of stuff.

1:06:40Like, I can't, I can't, I can't shit on gold. Wherever I'm at, I'm going to shit on gold. It's like the joke doesn't totally make sense, but you get that he's making fun of someone. You're like, okay, like even in your diary, you're joking around. I like that. You're not like this. Because I think we think of the philosopher as being an inherently not fun person, which is sad. Because actually, I think what being really smart should do is allow you to poke fun at the absurdity of the world. and see the contradictions. Like even he has this thing about posthumous fame that I think is funny. He goes like, people who long for posthumous fame forget that people in the future will be just as stupid and annoying as the people who are alive right now.

1:07:24Yes. I'm like, that's a good, that's like a, that's a little bit. Like that's a funny joke. Yeah. And I think. It's also true. Right, right, right. And sad. I think a lot of humor is letting go of perfectionism and ego. And one's illusions. Yes. Yeah. And realizing that it is kind of all, I mean, everybody's going to die. Yeah. And it's always, there's an expiration date. And so it's like, take seriously that everything isn't so serious. Yes. Because it's going to end. Everything's going to end.

1:08:17Thanks so much for listening. If you could rate this podcast and leave a review on iTunes, that would mean so much to us and it would really help the show. We appreciate it. I'll see you next episode.

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