Coach Buzz Williams’ Playbook for Mentorship and Motivation

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1:05Welcome to the Daily Stoic Podcast, where each weekday we bring you a meditation inspired by the ancient Stoics, a short passage of ancient wisdom designed to help you find strength and insight here in everyday life. And on Wednesdays, we talk to some of our fellow students of ancient philosophy, well-known and obscure, fascinating and powerful. With them, we discuss the strategies and habits that have helped them become who they are and also to find peace and wisdom in their actual lives. But first, we've got a quick message from one of our sponsors.

1:55Hey, it's Ryan Holiday. Welcome to another episode of the Daily Stoic Podcast. I was out for a walk with my kids this morning and I thought of Buzz Williams, the basketball coach. And I thought of Buzz Williams because I was throwing on a weight vest. I have this weight vest that I wear every morning and I think of Buzz every time I put it on because he's the one that pointed me to this one. I saw him post a picture on Instagram of him with his kids wearing one. I thought, oh, that's a great idea. It'll make the family time get a little double benefit of it. The nice stroll we take out here on my ranch can add a little workout component to it.

2:30I've known Buzz for a long time. In fact, a couple of years ago, my assistant looked at this magnet on the fridge and she goes, oh, is that a picture of you and your dad? And I go, that's not my dad. That's Buzz Williams, the basketball coach. She's like, what? And it's funny. I've known Buzz Williams now for many years. I met him through the great George Ravelin. He's someone I'll talk about in today's episode. But Buzz read a couple of my books. We got connected. I came out and talked to the men's basketball team when he was the head coach at Virginia Tech. And he sent me this nice little magnet picture of the two of us together that sits on my fridge.

3:08It's just a very sweet thing. I think it came straight out of the mail. I put it on there. And now it's at the fridge in the back of the painted porch, along with another magnet that he sent me. Buzz is an excellent collector of quotes and aphorisms and maxims. another one well she both believe in this idea that all success is a lagging indicator that's also on the fridge downstairs at the painting porch another funny buzz story when i was there visiting with him at virginia tech he was like here come over to my house we talked about how close his house was in the episode but anyways just come over to my house i didn't have kids at this point and um we're walking through his family's there his wife's there and she's in the middle of pouring out some goldfish crackers for her kids.

3:52And I go, oh my God, I haven't had goldfish in like 15 years. Can I have some? And she was like, of course, she made me a little cup of goldfish. And she said, your wife's pregnant, right? And I said, yeah. And she said, oh, all right. You're going to have your fill of goldfish very soon, which is very true. I have eaten too many pounds of goldfish over the years. Buzz is an awesome guy. He practices what he preaches. He's also a huge reader, a very avid note taker. He's been a wonderful supporter of me and my books. A couple of years ago, Jimmy Butler, now with the heat, talked about reading Ego is the Enemy or something.

4:26And I was like, there's no way Buzz is not responsible for that. And it turns out he was. And since it's the off season, Buzz was able to drive over from Texas A &M, which is shockingly close to Bastrop. And we talked about George Raveling, the greatest. and we talked about how he deals with the power and responsibility of being a coach, how the job of a leader is to anticipate problems and have a plan, the difference between justice and discipline, and a lot more. Stay tuned for part two of this episode. You can find Buzz on Instagram and Twitter at Team Coach Buzz. I think you're really going to like this interview.

5:16We sort of designed our life to like minimize time in the car, everything's central, everything's simple. And then my son started this new school, which is like blown. It's very important that he goes there, but it's sort of blown our lives apart. But I remember I visited you when you were at Virginia Tech then, and you were like, I told the real estate agent when we were looking for a house that it had to be less than 11 minutes from the facility. And you were like, and I drive slow. And I thought that's so smart because people, you want to get the nicest house for the best price, but you're not thinking about the inefficiencies or the cost of your whole day, week life pivoting around this inconvenience you've built into your existence.

6:02so where you and i took the picture i lived eight minutes from there yeah whoever you met that day that was employed at virginia tech they lived in the valley gorgeous yeah the country club not what you and i think a country club that version of country club and the lady the real estate agent i'm like i'm not living down there and she's like coach football coach that ad yeah I'm not living there. Yeah. She's like, why? It's right there. And I'm like, no, that's an hour a day. Yeah. Oh, no, it's 22 minutes. And I'm like, no, it's 22 minutes if nothing goes wrong. Sure. Something's going to go wrong every day.

6:48I can't commit an hour. You think you understand my job. You don't. But I don't have an hour a day. Whether I'm trying to be good at my job or not, I don't want to be in a car an hour a day. that's going to prevent three days a week. My wife stopping by. Yeah. It's going to prevent two times a week that she brings the kids by for 20 minutes. No, not doing it. Well, it's, it's funny too, because like people, when people think of the commute, they don't go, okay, this is going to cost an hour a day. It's going to cost two hours a day of work. It never eats into the work time. It's, it's the leaving early from home.

7:27The people you say that you're doing this all for that are most important that's who we put on the chopping block first that's exactly right we're eliminating time from them we're not eliminating time from work yes and i think that obviously i've evolved or tried to evolve in a positive way i actually on this topic i mentioned to our strength coach yesterday when i was training i said i don't know if I'll ever take another job, but if I take another job, I'm walking to work. And if I can't walk to work, not taking the job. And, uh, obviously I'm older than him. And he said, coach, you walk enough.

8:06And I go, no, it's the principle of I'm closer to being an empty nester than I am raising a family. Sure. And there's going to be an adjustment involved with that, that I'm not aware of. So I want the caveat to be, if I take another job, my wife can walk to work or I can walk home. And I think that that decision would impact hundreds of decisions as opposed to the other way around. Yeah. Yeah. People tend to think about opportunities in terms of like, hey, is this best for me? Does it move my career forward? Does it make me more money, et cetera. They don't often back out like, hey, what are my values?

8:52What's important to me? And what do I want my life to look like day to day? We'll do all this stuff that we don't like. So in the distant future, when we retire or when we make a certain amount of money or we have power or success, then we'll be able to do more of it. But we don't really think about like, hey, what do I want my day to day life to look like? Which is what we'd sort of optimized for here, living in a small town, living in Texas, as opposed to New York or LA, the only way I'm justifying this thing to myself is like, one, you do whatever you need to do for your kids. And then two, an hour of the commute, we're together, right?

9:29It's not like, hey, we live over here and I drive into Manhattan to work all day. It's I'm driving, I'm spending the time with them. There actually is something, and I've heard from parents who have older kids, they're like, actually like when you're strapped in the car together. It's some of the only quality time you get because like you're forced to spend time together and stuff happens. But it's an adjustment period. I very much optimize for routine and life and ease. And then, you know, life has other plans. How old are your boys now? The one that we're doing the commute for is seven, turn an eight.

10:05But it is what it is. Speaking of coaching, did I tell you I'm working on a book for coach rav i talk to him every third day and for sure within that i'm either talking to him before your friday morning yeah talk or shortly thereafter you know how i feel about coach and you're extending his life he's the best man it's it's unbelievable i'm so thankful for the friend that you are to him i do not have the vocabulary that either of you guys do but if i recorded only the portions where he talked about you you have no idea the impact you're having on his heart like like no idea he turns 87 years old tomorrow yeah and if you talk to him not you because i have a vibe for what's going on.

10:59But when I talk to him specific to you, specific to the project, he's 47 years old. It's unbelievable. This dude's life is unreal. Yes. Like he is. First off, I was speaking of driving. So I was thinking about this with him. So when he was born, the average life expectancy for a black man was like 47. And you know what happened when he was driving to work at USC when he was like 50 years old he got in a car accident and very nearly died and so he's really lived like several lives but he doubled he he's effectively doubled it and and and the second half of his life may be more interesting than the first half and the first half involved the I have a dream speech and Wilt Chamberlain and Harry Truman and breaking all these barriers it's unreal yeah and sometimes we talk about this i'm like coach i know of you as a coach yeah but i never met you until you weren't a coach and i stalked him to meet him yeah and i tell him all the time i'm like even on the documentary when all that started yeah and i don't know what you know about it or don't know about it but i've read some of the interviews insane is that right yeah you just have phil knight going like there wouldn't be a nike as it is today without this guy and you're just like and nobody knows who he is i know and you know we argued for three years about writing a book yeah about doing something like this like coach that's selfish to not do it yeah it's selfish yeah that's wrong man yeah he would get very offended with me yeah and he has talked to me i don't in ways that i don't think he talks to most people yeah and vice versa sure coach that's wrong like there are other georges on earth now that don't know the george yeah and you're doing them a disservice by not telling them the story of the original George.

13:09Right. Right. Not the color of their skin. Yeah. Not where they're from. Not that they can play, don't play, can coach, don't coach. No, no, no. You're negatively impacting them because you're not giving context to your life. Yeah. And that's selfish. It's really interesting. Oh, he would cuss me out. He would cuss, and he doesn't cuss like that. Why did you seek him out? Tell me that story. I stopped him. Like literally I stopped him. So he was speaking at an event. I found out he was speaking at the event. I called the guy that was running the event. And I said, is there any way that you could let me be the MC of the event?

13:56Not telling him why. I ended up being the first speaker at the event. And where were you coaching at this point? I was an assistant at Colorado State. 13 hours later coach rav is the keynote speaker yeah i'm speaking at whatever nine o 'clock in the morning he's speaking at seven o 'clock at night there's 12 people there at nine o 'clock in the morning yeah i stay there the entire day to listen to him he finishes speaking i introduce myself and i said to him hey coach uh do you happen to know where you're staying he said are you the kid that spoke earlier today? And I go, yes, sir. He goes, I'm going to have dinner.

14:41And I said, oh, okay. Well, I'm not trying to bother you. I was just wondering where you were staying. Long story short, I go to dinner with him. I get in the car with him. My car is in the parking lot. I get in the car with him, go to dinner. The driver carries him to the hotel. I carry his bags to check in. I'm carrying his bags to the elevator. I hand him his bags and I go, coach, I really appreciate dinner. And it's so nice to meet you. And he goes, where are you going? And I go, I'm not sure coach. Don't worry about anything. Really appreciate your time. I stayed in the lobby of the hotel until he woke up the next morning to check out.

15:25and I was sitting right there and I stood up, I go, good morning coach how you doing? and he just kind of whacked out what are you doing? who are you? hey coach, I just wanted to tell you one more time I really appreciate your time and he goes, did you stay here all night? I said, yes sir I stayed here all night right there he goes, did you sleep? I said, no sir, I just sat in that chair he goes, where are you going? I said, well I've got to figure out how to get back to my car this is in 2001 yeah you're not getting in an uber yeah there yeah your car i go yes sir my car is in the parking lot wherever we were speaking yesterday yeah i just love him i mean there are a lot of coaches you could learn from why just why'd you pick that one and why were you so intense about him well it's not like he's won a bazillion championships or he's under the radar Yes.

16:21He was not a coach at that time. And he had not at that time completely become to Nike what he had, what he ended up becoming running EYBL and all the things that he did. Just always like you. I'm attracted to anybody, regardless of industry or age or race on someone maybe that I could learn from. Yeah. And not that I had any inkling of an idea what the relationship would become. But from that meeting in the fall of 2001, I mean, he's one of the most important mentors in my entire life. Yeah. I don't even know that I've ever even talked to him about basketball, to be honest. Right. Like that's not our relationship didn't begin that way.

17:09It was through basketball that we met, but Howard has blossomed. He watches us. He keeps up with us. He knows what's going on, but we don't have conversation about it.

17:29Thanks to Toyota Trucks for sponsoring this episode. When I bought my ranch in 2015 out here in Bastro County, I drove my car about halfway down the dirt road that we live on, thought this isn't going to work, stopped, parked it, walked the rest of the way home, borrowed my wife's car, drove in Austin and bought a truck. What I bought was a Toyota Tacoma. And this truck wasn't just transportation getting me to and from my house. It unlocked a whole different style of living for us, not just on the ranch, but in our little Texas towns. There were places I could go now that I couldn't go before, especially out here in the piney forests, through the fields, and on the unpaved roads like the one that I lived in.

18:15We got to go deep into the hill country's wild beauty. We've driven all the way out to East Texas. We've driven across the country. And by we, I mean not just my wife, but both my kids who I drove home from the hospital in that truck. Toyota trucks are built for those who understand that the best adventures happen when you're willing to veer off course, because you never know when you'll end up on a Toyota adventure detour. And of course, this is stoicism, too, because every detour, every obstacle is an opportunity. But it's helpful if you can handle the difficulty inherent in that. If you've got the resilience and the right companion to make it wherever the road takes you.

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19:35But you know what's interesting? You guys are similar in that. I mean, he's a basketball coach. You're a basketball coach. But I don't think anyone thinks George Raveling is the best X and O's guy. I don't think they necessarily think of you as an X and O's guy. No. But there is something about a certain kind of coach that you both are. Maybe you sensed in him, like, this is a guy who does what I want to do in a way that I think I'm capable of doing. Or he's the master of a certain style or genre that is the one that's for me. He made a life slash a career in multiple industries, so to say, on relationships.

20:17I think he's a connoisseur of leadership, and I think he has exquisite taste on how to develop, consistently grow relationships, regardless of era, of type. He's just so good to people. and I think you know like obviously over the last couple of decades you know I would talk to people that work for him kids that played for him who are my age and they never speak to the x's and yeah like that never is a broached in the conversation and I think that that speaks to how impactful the relationship was that basketball brought us together but that's not what kept us together, if that makes sense. Apparently when Ben Affleck went to Michael Jordan to ask him if he could do that movie air, Jordan said, yes, but I have two conditions.

21:19One, Viola Davis has to play my mother. And two, George Raveling has to be a main character in the movie. You think about relationships, he's thinking, who's my mom? And I better give credit to this other guy too. Amazing. It's crazy. And I mean, even that's the payoff of the relationship of why Jordan ended up at Nike was George. You know, not the hard sell, but the, hey, just give him a shot. And so he's a relationship guy. And yeah, I mean, most of it, like, it was crazy to me walking through his life as I'm working on this thing. Like, I kept thinking there'd be like some really big players that he coached.

21:59And there's BJ Armstrong, a few. But actually, most of his impact was way later. It's Nowitzki and Yao Ming. It's at Nike where he wasn't actually coaching the players, but he was like, no, this is the guy. And he sensed something in people. So it's a developer of talent and relationship in a context other than just on the court. And I think that one other thing that I've learned just from watching him, mostly from listening to him, and some from just maybe processing what he's trying to teach me. he has an innate feel for where it's going yeah where a situation is going where a sport is going where a business is going where a person is going like he can project out it's been interesting he doesn't uh he's never talked down to me but he's never talking to me about today everything is in the realm of buzz i've been thinking about this and i was wondering i wonder about this a decade from now yeah and i'm like coach i don't even know what to say yeah and he's like yeah you don't have to know just think on this for down the line and i think if it's a player if it's what basketball is going to become if it's what he's going to become he's just very futuristic in having a pulse on, I need to be better prepared on this.

23:31And that's been so good to me. But that's one of the benefits of age, I think, is that you just have more time. You have seen things unfold in a way that the younger people simply haven't. I remember you and I were talking, this would have been summer of 2020. So the pandemic, all the teams and the off season had been disrupted. And I remember you were saying something to me about the players. You were like, I'm trying to talk to them about it. And I remember what I thought, and I explained it to you, but I was really explaining it to my myself, I was like, okay, so they've not been able to play for like six months or whatever.

24:02And to you and I, six months is nothing. Six months is six months. But this is like 5 % of their life. It's actually a statistically significant chunk of time to them. And so when you're in your 80s, you've had bad decades. You know what I mean? You've had quarter centuries that were rough, right? Like you can say things like, 50 years ago, we did it differently. And so you can then apply that to the future. And obviously this is, to me, the only other way you can get this. And so George is in his 80s, but he's also like a thousand years old because he's read so much history. When you've studied history, you can also get that.

24:45So like you go, hey, yeah, there's been periods when we had like four bad presidents in a row. Hey, do you know how long it took him to cure polio? you know you're expanding your historical viewpoint that's right or whatever and then that allows you kind of turns down the volume on on what's happening in front of you right now which is seemingly urgent and massive but it's not it's just because it's in front of you at this moment and his perspective because of those things how he articulates it i think is what makes him so special yeah he he can articulate it in the now yeah where you can comprehend it but it also gives it for me it gives my heart pause on coach let me write that down say it again yeah i just want to write it down not because it may apply today but he's telling me today and it's giving me pause on, I need to have discernment on this for where it may go.

25:47And I've seen how notes that I have written that are his words and his ideas from whatever, 10 years ago that I'm like, coach told me that a long time ago. And I catch myself saying that to him over the last couple of years as our industry has changed some of the things that he was telling me long before it ever became what it has become buzz you ought to think about this yeah he was he knew it was coming yeah he and he's not stating this is the exact scenario yeah but it's just the totality of his message in you know when i'm when i'm with him you know he's constantly writing and he's like hey, now I'm going to show you this.

26:33Don't write it down. I'm just going to give this to you. And so he's writing it. So I'll listen. So I don't write. And then he just gives it to me. He'll tear it off and hand it to me. And he'll go, all right, now let's go over this. Well, I just heard him say it. I just watched him write it. All right. Now, Buzz, you're 51. All right. Now let's look over here. Your sixth bucket of life starts in nine years. You're going to be 60 to 70. Now let's talk about that. How long will you and Corey have been married? How old is he going to be? How old is Bubba going to be? And he just starts, we're not talking about now.

27:08We're just thinking about this six bucket of life over here. And it's amazing. Like when I talked to him, how, Hey coach, you remember when you said this two years ago, when I flew out there to see you? All right, well, let me give it to you again. And then it kind of triggers him to go. Yeah, I remember. All right. Well, just, just riff off of it. Just, I'm going to be quiet and I'm just going to start taking notes on my phone and he'll just start talking, you know? And I'm like, Oh man, this is, what a blessing to have someone that has that information, has that wisdom, has that discernment, whatever the word is, but that he's willing to share.

27:45Yeah. I've been writing about this recently. It's something I've been thinking about like that. One of the hallmarks of wisdom is the ability to understand downstream consequences. So it's like, if I do this, this will happen way down here. So if I make this shift, if I start talking like this, if they do this, so you're able to predict the future because you have so much understanding of the past. You've moved these things around enough times that you know how different things are connected. And I find that people who are not very good at what they do are sort of always being surprised by that cause and effect.

28:20And people have been around a long time, they go, Hey, this is what this is going to mean down the line. So, uh, I don't think it's ironic that you would say that. So, uh, this morning on my walk, kind of do certain things when I'm on my walks and a portion of the time, I don't want to do anything. I just kind of want to look and think. And, but when I think of something, I just type it in my phone. I think as a leader, our job is to anticipate the problem and have a plan. But so much of what I'm seeing in leadership now, they're not only not anticipating the problem or having any level of plan, they're just reacting to the problem.

29:03And so then from that chair of leadership, you're just constantly in a reactionary state. And I'm convicted in whatever level of leadership that I have, even just as a husband and as a father, I need to think about and be more aware and anticipatory of what could happen. Just so that if it does, hey, what about this? And I see so much of leadership, is just completely reactive. And I'm like, yeah, there's seven things here and you're so bent on this one and the narrative you want to create is on this one and we'll worry about the six later. And I'm like, it's just going to stay in a constant churn of deceival.

29:58Robert Greene calls this tactical hell, right? So the difference between strategy and tactics is tactics is like all this little piddly shit. It's reactive. And then a strategist is like, I'm going to do this and they're going to do that. And then I'm going to do this. And it's all working towards something, right? Most people are tactical. They're day to day. They're waking up and they're like, what do I have right now? What did someone email me right now? What happened on social media while I was sleeping? As opposed to they knew what their job was weeks ago for today. Like great coaches, I think they're fluid and reactive, but they're also like, they're doing what they're doing.

30:35It almost doesn't matter what the other team is doing because they're on their track. And to that point, this is good talk. I like tactical hell.

30:53I feel the older I get, maybe it's because I'm getting older. Maybe it's because I've been doing it a while. maybe it's because I've re-engineered what I think is important. And so I, I look at a figurative box score of my life in a different way on what I think is important. But the other thing is, is distraction. Some people view social media as a distraction, whatever you view distraction to be yeah to me that's the greatest tactic or the best tactic of failure because if you're constantly in a state of distraction yeah to me you have no chance you're gonna fail yeah and i'm seeing that i get a year older but in essence the people that i'm around every day are the same age and have been for 30 years.

31:47Yeah, that's weird. And I told one of our new players when we started summer school a month ago, he came in the gym for a skill workout. He doesn't know me, really, and I don't really know him. And he brought his phone in the gym. I'm in the weight room. I'm looking out the window. I'll watch his skill workout. He comes in to say good morning. I go, hey, I want to try something with you. And it'll be good for you and I to build trust. But it's kind of like an experiment. And he's like, okay, coach. I said, I don't want you to ever bring your phone in the gym again. And he goes, oh, no, coach. I was just, I go, no, no, no.

32:26I'm not upset at all. Yeah. This is just me and you. I'm not going to take my phone in there ever again. And you're not going to take your phone in there ever again. As long as you're on this team and as long as I'm on this team, that's just me and you. I've never said this to any player. Yeah. I'm not mad. 30 days ago, I see him yesterday. comes in to say good morning after a skill workout and i go hey man where's your phone he goes coach i promise it's in the locker room and i go thanks for trusting me yeah do you think you're doing better when you're out there and he goes i don't know maybe i said you are maybe the results aren't better but there's a period of no distraction that all you're doing is that sure whether it's good or bad, you're not setting your phone down to go to work.

33:15And as soon as your quote work is over, you're going immediately back to your phone to see what you missed. I know as soon as you get in the locker room, you're going to do it, but that it's a distraction free zone relative to that device. I think it might help you. But also I bet like one of the interesting things probably for you, you're getting older, the kids are staying the same age. You've seen every person's different and unique, but at the same time, you've seen every type of person there is. And so there's probably something also where you're like, you came up with an idea. You suggested it to a player.

33:47The idea wasn't important. What's important is that after 30 days, he or she either shows you that they're the person who did the thing or not did the thing. For sure. And you can probably tell from that singular instance whether they're going to succeed or fail. Because you know that that tells you, again, downstream consequences. is if someone makes a commitment, they follow through, that tends to mean X. If someone makes a commitment, does it for a little bit, doesn't follow through, then lies about it, that means something else. And you've just seen that a lot of times. And I think one of the benefits of mentors and coaches or whatever, it's like they've seen you before at this place.

34:26They've seen all the types of person and they can tell you what to do or not do. And you decide who you are by choosing to do it or not. So I told him at the end yesterday morning, I said, you're doing better. Whether the results would say that or not. He said, you really think so? And I said, I know so. And I said, this will come across arrogant, but I don't mean it arrogant. I'm the guy subbing you in and out. Yeah. And so even if the results are the same, I trust you more because you've done exactly what I'm asking you to do. Yeah. And so I know if I'm not here tomorrow and you do skill, you're not bringing your phone in here.

35:03Yeah. So it creates a level of trust. And he goes, yeah, coach, I guess I didn't think about that. And I said, yeah, you're thinking about playing time. So I understand. I said, but here's what I'm saying. Someday you're going to be my age and you can't play. And I'm wondering if you can learn the discipline at your age of how you can limit your exposure to distractions. How can you limit your exposure to temptations? because even at my age, I'm not tempted by the phone the way you are. Yeah. Because I don't know how to operate the phone the way you do. It's not as much a part of your daily functioning.

35:45I said, but I still have problems with temptation. Not to cheat on my wife. The temptation for me is a distraction. And the distraction could be a lot of different things. so I'm constantly trying to figure out a way how can I limit my exposure to any of that yeah and me watching you every morning when you come in here I've already been in the weight room yeah so I'll watch you arrive and I'll watch you leave because I'm still training yeah but that you're doing what I ask has created a level of trust because I told you something to do or ask you to do something one time. And so now I know I should never bring my phone in there because I asked you to do it and you've done exactly that.

36:33And I respect that. Well, I have a story in the justice book that I was going to put in the discipline book because I think it's interesting how interrelated these things are. So I have a story in the justice book that on one level seems like a discipline idea, but it's actually a justice thing. It's about this poet. Her name is Danielle DiPrima. She's at this famous party with all these famous writers, Jack Kerouac, Allen Ginsberg. It's like a cool literary party. And she gets up to leave. It's like nine o 'clock. She gets up to leave and they go, where are you going? You arrived. And she goes, I got to go relieve my babysitter.

37:05I told the babysitter I'd be home by nine. And they go, babysitter? They go, if you want to make it as a writer, you got to forget about the babysitter. And she says, I gave the babysitter my word. And she would say later that what she knew in that moment was that keeping her word to the, if she didn't keep her word to the babysitter, she wouldn't keep her word to herself about the commitments to write and do the work. She said, it's the same commitment. Like, I'll be home by nine to put my kid to bed is the same commitment as I will arrive at nine to write tomorrow morning. And if you get in a thing with yourself or with other people where you don't do what you say.

37:46It's very hard to be successful. That's discipline. It's also very hard to be a good person. That's justice. And so it's this, like you build these habits where I do what I say. He said, I'm not going to bring my phone in the gym. He doesn't bring his phone in the gym. That says more than the workout. That says more than the distraction. At the same time, it also says something about those things too. Do you know what I mean? It says something about you as a person, but you're also demonstrating it over and over again. Like, hey, I do what I say. And also I'm building this habit, this muscle of doing the thing.

38:22I think I may have heard your podcast with Cal Newport when you mentioned the justice versus discipline conversation. And I actually paused the podcast. I was driving. I remember it now. And I left myself a voicemail because I was like, I don't know if I understand the difference. not that i disagree with what you said in the podcast or what you just said now but i'm like i wonder if i were to teach a first grader this is what discipline means and this is what justice means how would i explain the contrast so yesterday we're starting camp there's only three words on our wall in the facility and you've seen it love work and trust and so last week there were second through sixth graders at the camp this week at seventh through 12th graders.

39:16Completely different environment in the gym. But also I'm explaining yesterday as I'm starting camp, everybody has a different definition of love and work and trust. So before we start camp, let me just tell you what those words are in our program. And that does not mean that we're right. and it doesn't mean that what you would describe your words what your definition is to be wrong and i was thinking about this when i walked away one of the camp coaches who i didn't know was introducing himself and he goes coach i was really good and i was like what was really good he goes what you just said i go thank you what no what was good similar to what you're saying what is discipline to ryan versus what is discipline to the young man who i don't know who i'm saying don't bring the phone to the gym sure it can be different things yeah and so one of the things with our group that i've i'm trying to sort through how to be more succinct in my words with them there's so much that it feels like we can't control yeah what is it that we can control well we can control our words.

40:34Yeah. We can control our work. I think we can control our discipline. Yeah. I think we can control our reactions. I think we can control our attitude instead of talking about the thing or giving emotion or energy to the things that we can't control. Let's just leave that alone and put it under the invisible mirror. Is this something we can't control or is this something we can't control? Oh, we can't control this buzz. Okay. Well, how should we control it? And within the framework, we're completely not giving energy to the things that we can't control, but of what we can control. And I'm trying to improve in that regard.

41:19Like, what can I control? And Tom's been something I've been paying attention to more of, similar to some of the things we were talking about with coach rav and it's how am i spending my time it's arguably the greatest resource any of us have we can't create more we know that we can just waste less yeah but we also don't even know how much time we have left and so then how how important how more important is it of the things we can control including our time within how we utilize our time. And to me, that's discipline. Of course. No, and look, the virtues are inseparable from each other, right?

42:00And as soon as you try to make very clear distinctions, I think you get yourself in trouble, right? Because if courage is doing the thing you're afraid of, right? But what if you're doing the wrong thing, and that's why you're afraid of it? Like, what if you're fighting for a bad cause, right? Or what if you're disciplined, like you're hardworking, you're committed, you're not stopping, but you're misinformed. And so you're doing the wrong thing. You're doing something that doesn't make a difference. So the virtues are all related and impossible to separate. And I think what you tend to find is that they're distinct, but also the same.

42:35So this story about this woman keeping her word, she realizes, hey, I gave my babysitter my word, so I have to keep it because it's the right thing to do. It's also the disciplined thing to do because if you get in the habit of of not doing what you say, well, now you're a person who doesn't do what they say. And if you say, hey, I'm going to run a marathon, well, now you got a million reasons to listen to the excuses that let you off the hook from doing this thing you committed to do. So the discipline of, hey, I told you I would be there and volunteer for your cause, and now I don't feel like showing up, that's not the right thing to do, that you're screwing someone over.

43:17if you say, hey, I'm going to get up early and hit golf balls in the morning before my game to practice, you're going to screw yourself over if you're the person who says, well, nah, it's early, I don't want to anymore. Do you know what I mean? So you're getting from either virtue, you're getting to the same place, which is you made a commitment. Are you doing it or not? Thanks so much for listening. If you could rate this podcast and leave a review on iTunes, That would mean so much to us and it would really help the show. We appreciate it. And I'll see you next episode.

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