Coach Greg Harden On The Mindset Of Champions

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2:05Welcome to the Daily Stoic Podcast, where each weekday we bring you a meditation inspired by the ancient Stoics, a short passage of ancient wisdom designed to help you find strength and insight here in everyday life. And on Wednesdays, we talk to some of our fellow students of ancient philosophy, well-known and obscure, fascinating and powerful. With them, we discuss the strategies and habits that have helped them become who they are and also to find peace and wisdom in their actual lives. But first, we've got a quick message from one of our sponsors.

2:55Hey, it's Ryan Holiday. Welcome to another episode of the Daily Stoic Podcast. We've spent a good chunk of this year trying to build out this new studio for the podcast, and you've probably seen some of them on YouTube or Instagram. It's awesome, but it's kind of been one problem after another in the sense that the AC went out. This is like this hundred-plus-year-old building, and then we were doing some renovations on the office space. And so we ended up having to do today's episode in the bookstore itself. So I really got into this conversation. I'll tell you about it in a second. But it's always hard to watch people trying to come into the bookstore.

3:33The door is locked. I'm trying to focus on the guest. This is like the whole point of making the space to begin with. But, you know, this is what stoicism is at the most minor of minor levels, which is you adapt, improvise, you make do, you accept, you resign yourself. this is the reality of the situation. How can I be and do good inside of it in big things and small? And this episode, I think, came out really great. I was really excited to do it. And the new space is going to be awesome. I know the employees are excited and I appreciate them bearing with me as we set this up also. Anyways, to get to today's episode, I was having dinner with someone the other night, and we were talking about one of my favorite all-time documentaries, Some Kind of Monster, the Metallica documentary.

4:22We were talking about how it was so controversial. One of the controversial things in that documentary is that Metallica hires a performance coach, a psychologist to help the band come together as a unit. Meanwhile, this is now incredibly commonplace in sports and business, right? There's a character in Billions who is a performance psychologist at a hedge fund. And I've been lucky enough to meet a lot of these folks, and I always get a lot out of their books. And my guest today is one of the goats of this interesting, not so well-known field. In fact, I would consider him one of the goats because he was the peak performance coach for the goat, for the one and only Tom Brady.

5:07Greg Harden is a peak performance coach. He's a consultant. He's worked with all sorts of organizations, including seven-time Super Bowl champion Tom Brady, 23-time Olympic gold medalist Michael Phelps, Heisman Trophy winners, 50 NFL first-round draft picks, 120 Olympians in 20 countries. He spent the last three decades building up great athletes, building up champions on and off the field at the University of Michigan. He's 60 Minutes called him Michigan's Secret Weapon. And he has a new book out, which is great. Also, again, the definition of stoicism is here, right? The title of his new book is Stay Sane in an Insane World, How to Control the Controllables and Thrive.

5:54It comes out on August 15th, 2023. Greg Harden, you can follow Greg on Twitter, at RealGregHarden. You can go to gregharden.com. Check out his new book. It's great. We super dig into it because controlling the controllable, staying sane in a world that's spinning faster and faster, focusing on peak performance. These are all really key themes in stoicism and talk about ego, talk about a bunch of stuff he and I really vibed and it made for a great interview. So here is my conversation with Greg Harden. Enjoy.

6:39Look, I'll take, I'll love any book where Tom Brady says the title of one of my books. So yeah, look, he says, first off, what a coup that is, just for people who haven't seen the book yet. Anytime Tom Brady writes the forward to a book, you know, you're talking to a legit dude. Thank you. No, he says, okay, Greg reminded me that it's not supposed to be easy. The obstacle in the path isn't there to create frustration or make you doubt yourself or storm off or quit. The obstacle is the way. Difficulty is an advantage. He did say that. He did. And that is you. Oh, yeah. And I'm buying that book.

7:16I just want to be real clear. I'm worked up to meet you, young man. Well, likewise. Well, I like this, too. I think the other place we connect is, okay, so 2 ,000 years ago, Epictetus, he says the first job of the philosopher is to make things into two categories. He says things that are up to us and things that are not up to us. And I wondered if maybe that connected somewhere with your book, which is subtitled How to Control the Controllables and Thrive. God grant me the serenity. Yes. To accept the things I cannot change. the courage to change the things I can. Yeah. And the bloody wisdom to know the difference.

7:59You know what's amazing about the serenity prayer is like, it feels like it's like 2 ,000 years old. It's like 1938 or something. It's just some guy. Look, it's born out of Alcoholics Anonymous or something. Yes. And it's one of the life lessons that once you begin to see that as a life lesson, it changes. It'll help change everything. Yes. When I walk out of my door, I have two things on my door every morning I would look at. Serenity prayer. And the other one was learn to laugh at yourself and you'll always have something to laugh about. Yeah. I mean, it seems so basic. Like sometimes you watch like post-game interviews and they're like, ah, we just got to do a better job of, you know, focusing on what we control or what, and you're like, okay, you're being paid like tens of millions of dollars.

8:47You're the best person in the world at what you do. And like. This is what it's boiling down to. But then, yeah, you go back 2 ,000 years and you have this philosopher going like, literally the first philosophical insight is some stuff is in your control and some stuff isn't. It's simple, but it's not easy. Well, it's true, but it nails it. And all we're trying to do with this book is be straightforward. Yeah. And like, I had no idea of Daily Stoic. I had no idea that, you know, you would quote Marcus Aurelius. Marcus Aurelius. I mean, I'm just fascinated with how your mind works. But this is clearly universal truth.

9:30Yes. It's not like I imagined it or created it. It's just simply, well, just think about it for a moment. The more you know, the more you know you don't know. Yes. Well, and again, it seems so obvious, like, okay, there's some stuff that's up to us and some stuff that's not up to us. But then I've sort of taken it as, okay, but when you focus energy on stuff that's not up to you, you're spending less energy on the things that are up to you. And conversely, if your competitors are spending time on things that are not up to them and you're only spending time on things that are up to you, you have a competitive advantage.

10:08And sports might be who is 1 % better, right? And over the course of a game, that manifests itself in seven points or three points or one point. Because you do realize the mental game is the game. Yes. Tom Brady. It's easy to reference Tom because most people have seen his tryout video and they've seen that he wasn't jumping higher, lifting more, or running faster than anyone. That draft photo of him in 2000, he just looks like basically a regular guy. Yes, but you couldn't measure this or this. Sure. That's what you can't measure. Sure. Because his mental game was superior to everyone else's.

10:59Right. This guy, we'd have to tell him to go home because everybody else, you're begging him to watch film, and he's like living in the film room. Yeah. Just trying to study and figure out how to approach the game. But his ability to see what the average person can't see. Well, yeah, it's like, let's say you're down, what is it, 28? 28 to 3. Yeah, you're down to 28 to 3. You go into the fourth quarter. And it's not who the stronger quarterback is. it's not who is has the better offensive line right it's sort of like who wants it more who's cooler under pressure right who isn't rattled by what's at right it's it's all these intangible skills everything else is kind of an evened out at that point it's really can you because in that case too you're not even really again playing against the other team at that point you're just playing against, are you going to quit or not?

12:01Yes! Ryan, you nailed it, though. Again, the mental game is the game. 28-3 in a Super Bowl. This is not an NFL game. This is the Super Bowl. The two best teams in the nation going toe-to-toe. Sure. The only reason I'm watching it is because I love my guy. Yeah. It's 28-3. Sure. it's not impossible but it's improbable yes you understand and so but because it's him i'm not gonna bet against him but i this is pretty much over but i'm watching it out of respect yeah well i mean what's that thing they say about tom brady the one thing you can never do is give tom brady a second chance never that's a mental if that's not you don't give tom brady a second chance because he's so fast or so strong or he has the best pass.

12:55It's that if you give him a second chance, he'll learn from what he did wrong the first time, you know, he'll make you pay. Like that's a comment on the mental game. Yes. And he mastered the mental game early in life because I'm telling you, man, he was so confident by the time he left the university. He truly believed because, I mean, if you've seen anything about me, you know, I simply will say to anyone, I couldn't teach him how to throw a ball. Yeah. I couldn't do anything except teach him how to believe without question or pause in who he was and who he wanted to become. But I think it's good you brought that up because, yes, his confidence is essential, but that's not innate, inherent confidence that he had since birth.

13:45There's a scene in the book you talk about where he's like, my coaches don't believe in me. And you go, well, basically, why should they? I mean, because you have to be brutally honest with folks that you care about. Yeah. You know, and you haven't demonstrated anything and you're worrying about what they think. Yeah. My job, Tom, is to convince you I don't care what the coaches think. And you can't afford to care either. You're not here to be liked. Yeah. You're here to be efficient. You're here to be consistent. The single most important word in sports, consistency. I can get a hole in one. Yeah.

14:29Can't do nothing else. But at one time, that's not enough. Yeah. I can't consistently perform at that level. Right. But consistency is the key to who's going to be the best and who's going to be the winner. Right. But is there a difference between belief, confidence, and ego? Look, why do you think I like you so much? Look, I'm going to be giving you a book that I signed. Yeah. And in that book, I'm going to go to page 61. Let us turn now to page 61. We're going to turn to page 61 in the book. and on page 61, you will see that it ends by talking about something very specific. If you look at letting your ego help you instead of just inflate you, you would think that I talked to you because you look at that last line, the secret.

15:30What does it say? The secret is to make your ego your ally, not your enemy. And some guy wrote a book. So how do you make your ego your ally? walk me through it. Well, it's important to understand that ego in contemporary society is just bad words. Yes. But if it wasn't for ego, I wouldn't get out of bed no more. I mean, so I've got to shape, I've got to have the ability to be able to be self-motivated, to be able to push myself, to convince myself to not just dream, but to believe. Dreaming big is nice, but I have to believe big. And so I have to train my ego to be not something that just makes me lie to myself.

16:19Yeah. Or fantasize that I'm the guy. Yeah. Or be a narcissistic buffoon. I've got to convince my ego to be my best friend and to help me when I'm struggling for my what? Self-talk. I think what, so what you're saying is ego is a kind of self-sufficiency, right? Like I think about this, like when I, I have tried to get to a place where as a writer, where I don't really care how the books sell. I don't really care what other people think about them. I know what I'm trying to do and I try to evaluate if they're good or not based on whether I did everything I was capable of doing, whether it achieved what I wanted to achieve, whether I'm proud of it or not, and then everything else is extra.

17:02And so in one sense, there's kind of an ego to that, right? Because you're saying what I care about and think about matters more than what other people care and think about. But there's also kind of a self-sufficiency to that that's like I'm playing my own game and that game is higher than the game of the crowd or the market or whatever. Because what we're talking about is having the ability to give 100%, 100 % of the time, win, lose, or draw. People get it when I say give 100%, 100 % of the time to be the best. But they miss it when I say win, lose, or draw. And so if I am willing to push myself, to believe in myself, and I end up being okay with it might work, it might not work, but I'm going to do the best I can with what I've got, win, lose, or draw, that frees you and liberates you from the ego that's saying you're nothing unless you've conquered everyone.

18:03No, I'm going to be okay. Right. You have to be able to shrug off striking out, losing, bad call, et cetera. You have to be able to shrug that off. Bruh, baseball is one of the most fascinating sports in the world. Yeah. Because if I'm good and 70 % of the time I'm stinking up the place, but 30 % of the time I'm that guy, you're that guy. Yeah. So you talk about shaping your mind differently because, you know, you can't afford to be tripping hard if you strike out or you don't get a hit. Well, you have the ego of like, I'm the best because I have the best batting average in baseball. I have, you know, the most home runs.

18:50That works for you while it's working. But what about when, you know. When you have that slump. Yes. And when you're striking out. Yeah. Well, that's when we get to the whole obsession of trying to teach people the mental game. And part of the mental game is introducing not just, because remember, Desmond Howard, Tom Brady, they're not in my office because of mental health and depression and despair. They're trying to be the best. Right. It's an optimization game. That's the name of the game. So teaching people to trust and believe that what they're doing is right and for the right reasons, trying to convince Desmond Howard that you've got to decide with or without football.

19:35Yeah. Your life is going to be amazing. Yeah. Imagine telling Tom Brady at 19, who's obsessed with being the starter on the team, that the most difficult thing I can teach you, Tom, is you got to believe with or without football, your life is going to be amazing. Tom, what did I just say? Brady is so intense and so brilliant, he breaks it down for me. And everybody else, it takes me weeks to get him to even consider what I'm saying. But it is true, right? Because he could blow out his knee. He could get in a car accident. There could be a lockout. He could not get drafted. Like, it's not, that's not a controllable.

20:15Because we're trying to prepare you for life. Yeah. If I'm preparing him for life, if I can make him a better person, I promise him he'll be a better athlete. And that's a tough sell back in the day. In the last 10 years, though, it's gotten easier because mental health and mental game and all that, and mindfulness, everything is becoming popularized. No, I think people have that fear, right? It's like, no, my like drinking is part of my creativity, right? Or like my wild lifestyle, it's like, it's a relief valve. Like, I think people think it's like, because on the way up, the success was intertwined with certain bad habits or choices or whatever, that if you take that away, it'll all like, I think people, they go, you know, Tiger Woods goes to rehab and he's never the same, right?

21:04And I think there is this fear of working on the personal life that you're going to mess with the secret formula. Look, I have had, imagine this. I'm a brother from Detroit. Okay. And I don't want any parts of ice. And I don't want to have somebody with a cudgel in their hand skating at 45 miles an hour. show hockey is not what I am really good at. Imagine telling a hockey player whose daddy was a hockey player,

21:46who's obsessed with their son. It's in their DNA. It's in their DNA. Yeah. I'm telling their son who's ready to quit hockey.

21:59and it's not fun anymore. And I say, and that's your coach's fault? Wait a minute. You're not having fun because of your coach's personality? Is that what you're telling me? You cannot tell me anything like that and me not give it back to you and say, you're not having fun because you've chosen not to have fun. and you're no longer playing a game. You're now trying to be in the NHL and you're now trying to deserve your scholarship and you're trying too hard to be Peter Perfect that it's not working and you're miserable, negative, and depressed not because of the coach. The coach may have a whack personality.

22:40What's the likelihood? How old is your coach? Oh, I don't know, 45, 50. So what's the likelihood of your coach changing? Yeah. Oh, zero. Exactly. So what we have to work on is you. And so imagine telling a hockey player, I want you to get on that ice, and I want you to piss off your teammates and everyone that comes near you because you're having so much fun. The kid goes out and does it. I swear to God he had a hat trick. That's funny. Because I said, you need to understand this is a game that you play. Game, play, my God. It's called playing. That's implying fun. Yeah, it's called playing. If you're not having fun, I said, tell me about the greatest game of your life.

23:32Yeah. And they tell me this magnificent story. And I said, what were you thinking? Yeah. And you know what they say. I wasn't thinking at all. Of course. I was just having the time of my life. I saw this you know Shaka Smart he's the basketball coach at Marquette he was talking about this you know players come in they're the best high school player in the world you know whatever this great relationship with the game they think and then they quit in college because they're not having fun anymore and he's like the game hasn't changed you're not having fun because you associated fun with everything going your way yes with winning with getting all the playing time you wanted with everyone rooting for you and now you're just in a different competitive environment, a different reality, and fun is not what's changed.

24:22And remember, the hockey player, his daddy's saying, have fun. Yeah. What is this fool telling you? You know, this idiot. I'm just about in front of my wife. I'm an idiot. I never... You understand? So, yeah, Brad, we're talking about going against the grain when we're trying to help people to understand that the fear of failure is killing you. Yeah. And it ain't the game, it ain't the coach. Your obsession with being Peter Perfect is killing you. Yeah. Your daddy is obsession. Your father don't mean no harm, but he's being harmful if he's convinced that you have to be this rigid dip who continues to just be a beast and a brute.

25:09I have a quote next to my desk. It's from the choreographer Martha Graham. And it says, never be frightened of material. The material knows when you are afraid and it will not help. And I think about that. It's not quite the same as go have fun out there. But it is like if you're intimidated, if you're scared, if you don't think you can do it, that's not the right attitude to bring to the thing either. You're not going to do well that way. Your rhythm. Yeah. Your timing and your rhythm is off. You're not dancing. Yeah. You're performing. Yeah. Totally different than dancing. Yes. Yes. Right. There has to be a looseness to it and a lightness to it to do whatever it is.

25:53Whether it's the sales call, if you're too sweaty and thirsty, like you want it too bad. Yes, sir. That's not going to be the same as going into the call, having told yourself, they want to hear from me. They want to buy it. I have that, you know, there's a, you do better when you're light and loose. I think so. I agree wholeheartedly. And it's something that you have to teach because what you begin to try to introduce to people is the people that I've worked with. And it's not, the confusion for me is how people think I'm taking athletics to corporate. No, I took corporate to athletics. Oh, interesting.

26:33I trained over a thousand managers and supervisors on how to manage the troubled employee. Right. And I took to athletics how to manage the troubled athlete who's experiencing daily living problems, who keeps turning out to be human. Yes. over and over again the biggest problem these kids have is they turn out to be real people but you had asked me something you had said something a moment ago that opened up that door lightness and looseness yes and then we went to somewhere else but um no i think that is interesting because so i just i just got back uh two days ago i gave a talk uh to uh a bunch of Marines in 29 Palms, a big regiment of Marines.

27:24And it is remarkable, you know, they're training these people to be killers, right? They're the tip of the spear. But they're talking about the same things that you'd hear psychologists talk to an athlete about, that you'd hear a really great manager talk to their team about, you know, about focusing on what you control, you know, locking it, you know, like it is remarkable how, it's not just the mental performance is super important in sports. It's that across elite performance, the mental thing is everything. And that's where we were going. What we're talking about is like, people understand physical fitness, especially in the community.

28:06And that's where I was going with the community that I'm popular for. They certainly understand physical fitness. And so I'll have a seminar with a team and I'll say, I'm from another planet, I don't know what physical fitness is. Could you break it down for me? Well, of course. Yeah. How much can you lift? I'm asking you right. Yeah, sure. Endurance, stamina. And until they say recovery time, I tell them that you don't understand fitness. Because until you understand the concept of recovery time, being in shape means you can give 100 % and two seconds later, take a couple of breaths and do it again, right?

28:42So then I say, so then what is mental fitness? and then they dance all around. I said, I just gave you the answer. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And what we're talking about is training people to be able to understand that you can practice, train, and rehearse mental fitness. You can create a space in your brain where you begin to understand that you can recover faster than the average person, and that's where we're trying to get you. Because trials and tribulations, I don't care who you are and how much you love God, you're going to be tried. And so what we're talking about is recovery time. People who are mentally fit recover faster than the average person.

29:31Yeah, if we take it for granted that a bunch of stuff in the course of a game or a season or a career is going to be outside of your control. Yes. what it really comes down to is how quickly can you respond to those things and respond well sometimes it's going to be this big thing and sometimes it's just going to be your pregame workout is five minutes shorter than it usually is does that rattle you or can you adjust quickly can you adjust quickly yeah you're going to score and you've been fantastic can you recover from success? Yeah. You can't just teach people to recover from failure. You got to teach people how to handle the ego.

30:15Well, you think a game is 48 minutes. Yes. And then it goes into overtime. You budgeted for 48 minutes and then there was overtime. You have to recover, not just physically, but you have to recover to the fact that in your mind, the game was almost over and you were done and you could go home. And then the other team rallied and now you got to play another five minutes. Yes, sir. That's the adjustment that you have to make. And again, the mental game is the game. And the ability to identify what's working and what's not working, not only in sports, but in my life. Yeah. You know, being able to identify healthy versus unhealthy relationships, being able to identify, to teach people critical assessment.

31:04how to how do i self-evaluate how do i self-reflect self-reflection you know mindfulness is popular now but you have to be able to look at your life and become the world's greatest expert on who you are to become the best version of yourself

31:32Thanks to Toyota Trucks for sponsoring this episode. When I bought my ranch in 2015 out here in Vastro County, I drove my car about halfway down the dirt road that we live on, thought this isn't going to work, stopped, parked it, walked the rest of the way home, borrowed my wife's car, drove into Austin and bought a truck. What I bought was a Toyota Tacoma. And this truck wasn't just transportation getting me to and from my house. It unlocked a whole different style of living for us, not just on the ranch, but in our little Texas towns. There were places I could go now that I couldn't go before, especially out here in the piney forests, through the fields, and on the unpaved roads like the one that I lived in.

32:17We got to go deep into the hill country's wild beauty. We've driven all the way out to East Texas. We've driven across the country. And by we, I mean not just my wife, but both my kids who I drove home from the hospital in that truck. Toyota trucks are built for those who understand that the best adventures happen when you're willing to veer off course. Because you never know when you'll end up on a Toyota adventure detour. And of course, this is stoicism too, because every detour, every obstacle is an opportunity. But it's helpful if you can handle the difficulty inherent in that. If you've got the resilience and the right companion to make it wherever the road takes you.

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34:28When I mentioned that it's so hard as an athlete because for the first, let's say, 18 years of your life, you really only had to be physically better than everyone else, right? You're just sort of brute force physically. Are you faster, bigger, stronger? And that's it. But there's a small percentage who. Yeah. I just mean like. Typically, yes. Athletes tend to have an intense physical awareness of their body. Yes, sir. They are like, they might be totally inarticulate in an interview. They might be failing all their classes. But they have a different kind of intelligence. They have a physical intelligence that is unmatched, right?

35:10But to be truly great, to get to the next level, they have to be as smart in the other, you know, domains. You have to have multiple forms of intelligence, which is to go to your point, the sort of, are you an expert in your triggers? Like, if you're the athlete that's, you know, it's easy for people to get in your heads, in your head, or, you know, and you're not aware of that. You're just a mark to the next shark that comes along. Well said. Yeah. I mean, we're talking about, in one of the chapters, we introduced the whole idea of SWOT analysis, which is MBA. We're doing consulting for corporate America.

35:52We're going to look at the strengths, the weaknesses, the opportunities and threats to our success as an organization. Yeah. I snatched that shit. Look, you're going to do a SWOT analysis, huh? You're going to look at your strengths, weaknesses, opportunities, and threats to your success. Sure. Then we take it to another level. I want you to identify two to three people who love you, who you trust, who are not going to abuse power. Yeah. And you're going to ask them at the same time while you're writing your own to write one and be brutally honest with you. Yeah. And then we're going to come back.

36:28We're going to look at yours. In the end, we're going to process that, and then we're going to look at what the people who you trusted said. We're going to see where there's matches, where everyone has the same idea. They see something you don't see because you have to be able to look at what's working in your life and what's not working and get feedback outside of your own ego because it's hard for some people to look at their weaknesses, And it's really hard for some people to look at their strengths. It is funny how basic that is, though, right? I saw this interview with Sean Payton, and this was right before he took over in Denver.

37:08And someone was like, well, how are you going to turn around Russell Wilson, right? And he was like, I'm going to look at all the film, all the plays that he ran last year, and I'm going to look at the ones that did well, and I'm going to do more of those. and then I'm going to look at the ones that didn't go well and we're going to play fewer of those. Genius! Yeah. And you're like, that's what you got$15 million for a season? But that's both really simple, but also not what most people do when they are trying to dig out of a hole or fix a situation. That's such a football coach way of thinking, but it's actually such great advice for life.

37:51Where are you getting sales in your business? Where are you not getting sales? Let's do more of one and less of the other. What's working? What's not working? So aside from doing clinical therapy, I'm talking about peak performance. Yeah. We've got to teach you how to identify what works and what doesn't work. But in order to take you to the next level, we're not just talking about on the field. Yeah. We're talking about in your daily living. When are you and your spouse getting along? What are the sources of conflict? Let's prepare ourselves for more of those and less of the other. Exactly. Because I'm trying to convince people, say, for example, we're talking about athletes.

38:30I'm saying if you're a better person, you'll be a better athlete. Yeah. Or just like how the NBA recently was like, you know, if we put the players on fewer back-to-back games, they get hurt less and they play better. Genius! Yeah, right. But that's the league doing the same thing. When do we have great games? Yes. What are great seasons? and what seems to be the sources of seasons falling apart, routines falling apart. It's just like, hey, you crushed it at that meeting the other day. Why was that? Well, I slept really well the night before. Think you could have been on to something? Yeah, for real though.

39:11Instead of just hoping that the factors line up, how do you arrange a life and a system and a routine instead of practices that encourage more of that? Well, yeah. That's why I like you. Give me some things that are critical. Boom, boom, boom, boom. For me, it's simple. I'll leave with care, compassion, and concern. The three C's, baby. Yeah. Before I open my mouth, am I leading? Am I saying it? But sometimes you have to dig deep to let go of your baggage or your issues or your anger or your frustration with somebody. And before I open my mouth, I've got it grounded with care, compassion, and concern.

40:05So you're talking about what makes you better as a person will make you better as an athlete. But I feel like some of the things that make you better as an athlete make you worse as a person. I'll give you an example. There's certain athletes, they're like notorious for perceiving and then holding on to grudges, right? Like I'm gonna prove that guy wrong. I'm gonna shove that in their face. You know, they talk trash to me. I'm gonna make them regret it. That can be a recipe for motivation on the court. But if you do that at home or in traffic, you know, you're gonna blow up your life. So how do you think about some of the traits that are adaptive in the professional world, but really destructive personally.

40:50It's really important, and this is difficult for a lot of people to hear, to be able to compartmentalize, to be real clear about when you are performing and entertaining and trying to make more money, and when you're trying to be loved. And you can't be loved if you don't give love. Yeah. So you've got to train yourself to be able to be clear when you are in different roles because we wear so many hats and we have so many different personalities that you have to just simply learn to be deliberate and intentional about how you're going to turn something off before you get out of that car and go into that house.

41:31Yeah, I think about this, like you say, someone like Tom Brady, right? He is very strict with his teammates, right? Holds them to a very high standard. He expects them to be as much of a professional as he is to do their job. And if they don't, they shouldn't be on a team with Tom Brady, right? Great captains, great athletes, they're pros, right? And they're very demanding. But you can't be that way with an eight-year-old or a spouse or whatever, right? And so, yeah, how do you turn off some of the things that make you great at what you do? You have to be able to turn them off when you step out of the locker room.

42:07Great coaches, great athletes hate to lose. Yeah. But I shouldn't hate myself because I lost. Oh, that's a great decision. You understand? And I can't be bitter, miserable, negative, and depressed when I walk into that household. Right. I can ask for it. Give me a few minutes so I can debrief, so I can cleanse myself, but I'm not going to bring this into the house. You know, I had to train myself. We're on the plane, and we just got our buns handed to us. And I got to remember not to be me. Yeah, sure. Because I'm, you know, at least calm yourself down. Shut up. Don't be that happy. One of Lincoln's aides said he never demanded perfection of anyone, and he did not even expect from them the high standards for which he set to himself.

43:05And I think there's an element of that that's essential as a leader and also just as a person in the world. It's called self-discipline for a reason. It's like, you chose this. You can't expect everyone else to live to your standards. And also, especially in sports, It's like, man, you're making three, four, five times as much money as this person. You should care and be that much better. They're on their own journey, and you got to leave them to that. Imagine a basketball player who is so good that he gets to the spot, and he passes the rock, and they miss it. Yeah. Because he doesn't know they're not as good as he is.

43:51Yes. He's got to recalibrate and bring them along. And he's got to be so good that he can adjust and adapt and know the speed and the capabilities, the limitations of each player on that team if he's going to be the point guard, if he's going to be that guy. Right. Because it's got to be frustrating if you're that good. Yeah. And they can't keep up with you. Yeah. I saw a Rick Fox interview once where he was saying he had to go to Kobe and go, hey, we're not all Kobes. And there's actually in ancient Rome, one of the Stoics, his name was Cato. He was this very strict, very austere, disciplined sort of ethical man.

44:32And there was an expression in that time, which is we can't all be Cato's. And even Cato is not Cato all the time. Kobe's not Kobe all the time. You got to be able to accept that other people are on different journeys and have different capabilities than you. or you're going to grind them down and push them away and you're going to miss the things that they can do. Yes, sir. Yes, sir. And then I think that must be particularly hard for athletes to apply at home. Yeah, because we all have to adjust and adapt. I mean, imagine, can you imagine being married to you? No. No. You know, because, bro, your mind is so, your range is crazy.

45:22Yeah. You know, and what you can see and what you can talk about and how you see the world and how you see how people should and ought to, you know, you have to, it's hard to resist. Yeah. How come you can't see that, honey? Because I can't. Yeah. I love you. Sure. Yeah. Yeah, it's, and also I think if you practice some of that self-awareness that you're talking about earlier, you go, maybe it's good not to be me. You know what I mean? Like, be happy for them that they're not cursed with the same desires and ambition and commitment and sort of calling that you are. I don't want to date me. Yeah.

46:07I don't want to marry me. Yeah. I want to marry someone different because that's the way the world really works. Sure. And that's where balance comes in. And her strengths, his strengths are going to be different than mine. And so you're counting on having a synergy and hope that everyone's bringing something a little different. Yeah. Yeah. You said you had this great line in the book. You said there's two different kinds of love. Tell me that story. Oh, brah. Look. So it's two different kinds of love is a chapter that talks about how my son, who was like 14, 15 at the time, we had a formula. I go to work, you know, I get home before he gets home.

46:55He shows up 45 minutes exactly. And like Gadfrey, that's what's going to happen every day. Yeah. And he doesn't come home. Yeah. and so like I'm getting a little irritated because 10 minutes goes by he's not home 20 minutes 30 minutes all of a sudden it's 45 minutes and he's not home I'm furious I'm gonna rip him a new one you understand because by Gaffrey this is the place and you and you're putzing around or doing something there ain't no cell phones in everybody's hands and lo and behold our and a half goes by. And all of a sudden, I understood love like I had never understood it before. See, because Papa's love is like, do what I say, do what I want you to do, be on time, and you'll be rewarded.

47:52Mama's love is like, that's my. Yeah. And like, I thought I understood what it meant to love your child. But when that boy didn't come home and it was an hour and a half later, my mind went absolutely nuts pondering what could be the problem. And then all of a sudden, the fear and anxiety that I had never in life experienced ascended upon me or descended upon me, whatever. Yeah. And so the next thing I know is like, I'm just like, you know, I don't care what it is. I just need to know that he's okay. Sure. And it pushed me into an awareness of what a mother's love must be like. And it pushed me into an awareness of unconditional love.

48:43Right. And I started thinking so clearly, by the time that boy gets home, I'm happier than a tick on a dog's butt. You could have had a face tattoo and wrecked your car. I mean, because the idea of loss. Yeah. It puts everything in perspective. It put it all the way in perspective. And so I went from a father's love to a mother's love in that one session. And I began to understand differently how people love. Yeah. And it was an unbelievable lesson in my life. Yeah, there's a passage in Marcus Reus' Meditations where he says, you know, as you tuck your child in at night, you should say to yourself, they will not survive to the morning.

49:25And he's like meditating on the loss that the most precious thing in the world to you. And I think some people have read that as a kind of detachment, that that's the philosopher saying, you know, I'm otherworldly, I don't care about worldly. I think it's the opposite. I think it's rooting you immediately in the present and in what matters. You know, they're like one more book. in light of what you were just thinking about, you'll read till four in the morning, right? Like when you can contemplate for a second as unthinkable and unpleasant and scary as it is, loss or injury or, you know, just even them just growing up, right?

50:02It puts, I told you to line your shoes up by the door in perspective or like the C on the math test. You know, it puts all of the things in perspective. look uh having a dependent yeah that word is loaded bro i mean especially when we're talking about itty bitties yeah i mean their whole world is you yeah and if you don't do your job they're doomed yeah if you don't see what they need yeah just simple needs i mean it's crucial that we become so grounded in who we are and who we're trying to become that we understand that love is in love until you give it away I heard Obama say like having a kid is like uh your heart running around outside your body that's deep and that's what it is and that's what dependent vulnerability that that's you're a hostage.

51:05For real, because it ain't about you. And you finally understand it ain't about you. And that's talk about humility. Yeah. You have a kid. They will introduce humility into your life. Sure. You know, clean my stinking drawers. Okay. Yeah. Let me get that for you. When I especially imagine with some of the athletes that you work on where they're best in the world, people are taking care of them. They always get their way. Everything, it's not that everything comes easy, but they are used to being great. And one of the things that parenting does is you're real bad at it. Even if you're trying really hard, you know, you're real bad at it.

51:41You know, so because of some of the roles I played, I'll have people saying, you know, my kid is outstanding and I want him to be recruited. You know, what do I need to do? And I have to share with them, you don't need to do anything because we don't trust you because you're in love and have a tad bit of a bias. So if you want your kid to be recognized, let the film talk. Let the coaches who coach them talk to other coaches. Your opinion, we don't even take it with a grain of salt. We don't take it. Sure.

52:21Because what are you going to say about your child? Sure. He's the best. She's the most out. You got it. Well, yeah, a lot of people identify with their own success and that causes problems. But the real messed up thing is when you start to identify with your kids' success and you treat them as an extension of you. That makes you vulnerable. It makes them vulnerable. And it's not, it doesn't make anyone better. That's a recurring theme in sports. Yeah. The pressure, the expectations, the fantasy. Yeah. That you're going to live your life and your dream of being that superstar through them. Yeah.

52:58The pressure that people don't understand the real pressure that 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22-year-olds are under. Yeah. They think they do, but they don't. Yeah. And, you know, we need to be real clear that the average individual in organized amateur sports in college will never be a professional athlete. Yeah. Never. Yeah. And so, but sometimes you'll have a 17-year-old whose whole family system is betting on them. Yeah. Counting on them. Yeah. Telling them how much it means for them to be at an institution and maybe going pro. So it's real difficult sometimes because sometimes you'll meet people who are in sports, don't even like sports.

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56:13The great metaphor from golf is that like the harder you try, the more you suck. And I feel like that's true in most assets, most areas of life, some form or another. The more self-conscious you are of what you're trying to do, the chances of you doing it well are lower. You got to understand, golf is the most brilliant metaphor of all time. I mean, the best role model I had was a female about five foot three inches tall. Yeah. And I'm trying to learn the game, and she's out driving me. I'm weighing 205. Yeah. I'm strong as ammonia, and she's out driving me. I'll swing harder. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

57:06That's a recipe for whipping it. Ugh. And until I began to see that her swing was elegant. Yeah. Her swing was smooth as silk. I began to understand it's technique, not strength. Oh my God. What a break. What a major breakthrough. But life is like that. You've got to, you've, you've got to have strategies and techniques and commitments to processes and formulas that you can count on that aren't necessarily just beating it up and making it happen. And, and. Have you seen those Netflix documentaries, the one about golf and the one about tennis? They're pretty good. I forget what, Breakpoint and I forget what the other one's called.

57:53But what I thought was interesting, because we often use golf as the metaphor. It's like the harder you try, the more you screw up. But what I thought was interesting is that golf is a very humbling game, but all the golfers seem to really like golf. And when I watched the tennis one, it seemed like all the tennis players hated tennis. And I couldn't figure out, you know what I mean? Like in there, there, there is kind of a, an anger simmering beneath the surface in a lot of tennis players. And I, I couldn't quite figure out why they seem to hate it so much. Well, as an administrator, you need to know that one of our notions is that tennis is one of the toughest sports to manage.

58:38Why? Because it's – imagine creating a tennis team, let alone individuals. The tennis – you come to college and you have a college coach. You have a hitting coach. You have a strength and conditioning. They have more coaches than anybody that you've ever seen. And the college coach has to tolerate, you know, I've got my – serving coach, I've got my... So you talk about some people who are under tremendous pressure to be perfect and to please so many people. And it's a grind. It's a bonafide grind. And it boils down to moving your feet. Yeah, right. At least golf, you're not hitting the same shot over and over and over and over again.

59:38So you're spread out, you're covering distance. There's a time between the - Your mind gets to process. You can recover faster. Ooh, Brian. Or you can not recover. It can end quickly or it could go on and on and on. You've seen matches that never ended. Sure. That volley, volley, volley, volley, volley, volley. Yeah, and so many people I know - have talked about like their kids. They're, they're really good at tennis and they're playing. And then just one day they're like, fuck, I never want to play ever again. Never want to play again. The pressure is tremendous on tennis. Yeah. I mean, just, I mean, look how fast the rock is going, man.

1:00:23That's true. Sure. How do you, how do you even train your brain to anticipate? You have to anticipate where that serve is going. Right. Right. You got to anticipate where your rack has to be because you, It's going too fast to see it and then react. You got to know. You got to believe in your heart that you know exactly what's going to happen with that ball when it comes off of the other person's racket. Right. It's a fascinating game. Swimming is the other one where it's just you and your mind staring at some tiles underneath you, and the water is always cold. You're good, man. Do you understand that swim, understand this because we're talking sports, swimming and diving.

1:01:11Yeah. Ain't got nothing in common except water. Sure. We're on the swimming and diving team. Yeah. They're radically different sports. It's like a runner and a shot putter. Sure. I knew that I was a true sports administrator when I could watch the mile in a pool. Yeah. Back and forth. Yeah. And back and forth. How many laps? I'm on 60. Yeah.

1:01:42Imagine, and like the closest thing to swimming and diving is track and field. Yeah. But track and field is outdoors. Right. Track and field training, I'm running over mountains and hills and pretending I'm an antelope and a panther and doing all these things and swimming. that one line, that white line, and stay in your lane and grind it out over and over and over. You wonder why Michael Phelps had to rebel. I mean, adolescence requires you to fight for autonomy at a certain point. Imagine you've been in the pool since you were 12 years old, told that you will be an Olympian. And at 15, you're at the Olympics.

1:02:32And then at 19, you're at the Olympics. When just the constant delayed gratification, right? It's like, sure, you're practicing every day and that's the reward is going to be in competition. And you do have some competitions, but really the only competitions are every four years. It's very hard for anyone to show up and work on something when the potential rewards for that thing are an incomprehensible amount in the future. It's like why dieting is hard, right? Because you know it will make a difference, but not in any perceptible way anytime soon. Yeah, and remember, you just described Olympians.

1:03:13Yeah. And we're talking about college, the championships, and boom, boom, boom, is every day. But the worst thing about swimming is if you take two weeks off, you're behind. Yeah. Yeah. Well, they do like a mile warm-up just to get started, you know? And then after the race, they better do a warm-down. And then they better go get an ice. Yeah. An ice tub. It's a grind. It's the grind. The lactic acid build-up. Yeah. It's insane. Yeah, you got to figure out what grind you love, though. Yes, sir. Yeah. Yeah. And you got to be able to find ways to recover. And you then have to teach that athlete and all the other athletes that your self-worth and self-esteem must not be based on performance.

1:04:03Yeah. I've got to convince somebody that how I feel about me cannot be based on my sport. Eight-tenths of a second. But then if you're serious, you have to say, well, when did you start being a gymnast, a swimmer? Five? Yeah. Four? How could I not see myself as a swimmer? I'm a swimmer. No, you're more. I've got to convince anybody. I've got to convince an executive. I've got a corporate attorney. I've got to convince them that you're more than an attorney. Yeah. You're more than an executive. You're more than a millionaire. Yeah. You're more than a swimmer. Yeah. The thing you worked hardest on in your life that you're the only one in the world to do or you're one of an elite group to do, blah, blah, blah, all that, it's meaningless.

1:04:55Like, how can you, what? Thanks. Michael, you're more than a swimmer. Yeah. But I get rewards and people love me and they say my name and the lights go off and boom. Michael, you're more than a swimmer. Yeah. Yeah. It ain't easy what I do, son. I just make it look that way. like an athlete, right? It should look effortless. It should look simple. It's simple. Yeah. But if everyone could do it, you know, it's a fascinating world because you're surrounded by people who, you know, are just in a stage in life where they're transforming themselves from adolescence to adulthood. And they're going through the same things that everybody else on campus is going through or going through every, or every Olympian on the planet turns out to be a human being.

1:05:57It's just fascinating to be able to talk to individuals who are trying to figure out who they are. So talking about, you know, you're more than a swimmer, you're more than this. Have you ever met an athlete or a champion for whom getting that thing did it for them? Like they were on the medal stand and they were like i'm finally happy i finally feel good does it ever does it ever does it ever fill that hole um yeah for a brief moment in time it's fleeting yeah because now it's the next one you know you ask a guy you know uh who's had a lot of championships say football or something you say which which which ring is your favorite yeah The next one.

1:06:46Right. They're always looking for that next hit. So, yes, for a brief moment in time. And you have to train people out of that mindset because if I had more money, I'd be happy. No, you're just not a happy person. If I had a better significant other, if I had, if ifs and ands were pots and pans, son, there'd be no need for skillets. Seneca, one of the Stokes, he said, you know, poverty isn't having too little, it's wanting more. And so you can be a very rich, very poor person. And I think that you could have five rings, but if six is the one that you think makes you the goat or makes your dad proud of you, or silences the critics, you know, think about Kevin Durant.

1:07:33Kevin Durant has gotten in his mind that he's got to prove he's the bus driver or he's not great. And so it's taken him all over the NBA to some not so great spots because he needs that thing. Chasing that dream, chasing that fantasy. Yeah. You know, yeah, but you nailed it. It's awkward to be around people who think if I just had this. Yeah. Conditional happiness. I would be happy because at the end of the day, I think we opened the door in Chapter 6 where we talk about basic needs. What we discover, and anytime somebody says every or all, they're about to say something profound or completely ridiculous.

1:08:20Everyone has basic needs. And I looked at a formula that talks about four A's. And I'll ask people, what do you think the four A's are? And of course, someone said, A are. No. And it drives me crazy. But we're talking about the need for attention, affection, approval, and acceptance. So what we have to teach people how to do is, I mean, we have people who are the best friend anyone could have. They are attentive and affectionate and they validate you, right? And they accept your flaws and all. But when I ask them, what about self-love and self-acceptance? We have patterns where people are so invested in getting the approval of others that they settle for approval when they long for acceptance.

1:09:16We have people who want to be loved and have affection. They'll settle for attention, negative or positive. Sure. I have made a complete and total fool of myself seeking attention, affection, approval, and acceptance. I've also been a hero. And has getting those things ever done anything for you? Right. Yeah. Until I understand, until we understand how crucial it is to be attentive to yourself, to be affectionate and care for yourself, to begin to understand that I have, there's a chapter in the book where I talk about my father. And it dawned on me, and that's what opens up the whole piece on attention.

1:10:00I'm 34 years old, and it dawns on me that I still crave my father's approval. Come on. And I'm teaching everyone else something different. It just hit me like a ton of bricks. and I decided that my father loved me. He couldn't express it because no one expressed it to him. He didn't know how to express it. It dawned on me that my father loved me and that he cared about me. And while he couldn't demonstrate it the way I thought he should have, I had surrendered to the idea that he can only do what he can do. Sure. That must have been a load off. It opens up the door. It liberated me completely.

1:10:44And I swear to God, within 48 hours, I got a call from my father asking for my opinion. He doesn't ask for my opinion. He knows everything. And he says to me, you know more about this than I do. Who is this? Hello? Did you mean to call someone else? Who is this? And I swear it was as soon as I let go of my need and desperate, my desperation for his approval and believe that he always cared and always loved me. He called and said, I always care and I've always loved you. It was it was classic. I've noticed like I've noticed a trend in teams. like it seems like the best teams, you know, I don't see Steve Kerr yell at his players very often.

1:11:41You know what I mean? There's the model of the sort of old school, authoritarian, disciplinarian, you know, don't want to piss off coach. And then there seems to be a new breed of coach, administrator program that's more about culture and more about building people up than tearing them down. And then I don't know if everyone has bought into that yet. What do you think? Well, you do realize that Tony Dungy couldn't get hired because he was too nice. I swear, this is a true story. Yeah. They let him go from the Tampa Bay Buccaneers because he just wasn't cussing and screaming. There's the image we have of what a coach should be.

1:12:25And show the servant leader is what he introduced and wrote about. Boom, boom, boom. But when you think about, in many professions that you're aware of, there's something called continuing education units to be licensed and certified. Coaches, however, are frozen in place to whenever they were an athlete. This is how I was coached. This is how I'm going to coach. The generation in the world is changing rapidly. And the players they have now, mm-mm. You can't, it doesn't work. You know, all this authoritarianism, this bust, no. You have to show, lead with what? Care, compassion, and concern. If I don't care how much you know until I know how much you care.

1:13:24Right. If you don't care about me, I don't care about you. As a matter of fact, in this day and age, the biggest problem, in my opinion, with pro athletics is that as much as we complain and whine about how much coaches are getting paid, if the players are making more money than the coach, and the coach can't fire anybody, I don't know how to. And so the players can get you fired. That's a game changer, bro. So you have to be able to be successful. You've got to be more flexible. You've got to be able to read people. You've got to be able to listen. You've got to be able to engage. You've got to learn how to empower people in order to be the best leader you can be.

1:14:17Yeah, I heard a CEO say once that he said, but it's always worth reminding yourself that it's an all-volunteer world. That all these people are here willingly and they can leave willingly. Even I was thinking about this when I was talking to the Marines this week. It's like, none of these guys were drafted. These men and women chose to be there. And they must be treated accordingly. If you want the talent, you got to do, it's not that you do whatever the talent wants, But you have to create an environment that the talent is able to thrive in and enjoys being in. The days of staying somewhere 20, 30 years have faded.

1:15:02Yeah. Because money, we have a current generation that's not driven as much by money as people think they might be. I would agree with that. And like, they want to be in an environment where they are being developed. as human beings, where they are valued and appreciated, engaged early on about how can we make this place better. If you don't care about my opinion and care about my philosophies and my truths, I'll go somewhere else. Yeah, sure. Right, it's a volunteer world. You're absolutely right. I agree. Yeah, especially, I mean, in college sports, the transfer portal is a reminder. It's a volunteer world.

1:15:47And it's a game changer. Yeah. We won't even start talking about NIL. Yeah. Because, see, the worst thing about all that is we're gambling on a kid who's 17, 18 years old. Yeah. Don't tell anyone I told you this. But the average four or five star may not be a four or five star. and it may not pan out that way. Sure. So now I'm going to bet a fortune on a child who may or may not be who I fantasize they're going to be, or I'm going to pay you to come to my institution, and if someone offers you 50 cent more, you're gone. Yeah, sure. The world has changed dramatically. But I'm sure there's opportunities in that.

1:16:44I mean, let's go back actually to that, where we started, which is... The idea that, you know, what stands in the way is the way. The obstacle has opportunities. How do you think about that as far as elite performance? Look, teaching people how to embrace the obstacle. Yeah. Teaching people how to grow through life and not go through life is where we go. That's my emphasis on teaching people to understand that opportunity is going to knock. Yeah. You're going to get in the game. Yeah. But if you don't have the right mindset, you'll get in the game and you're still moaning and groaning and complaining about how you should have, could have, ought to have been the starter.

1:17:28And then you go out there and your mindset is off. Yeah. And you're not flowing. You're not in rhythm because you're so busy thinking, being obsessed with what I need. Yeah. That you don't understand that that obstacle. So Tom Brady began to understand at an early age that the things that were standing in his way were opening up doors for him if he allowed himself to grow through it and not just go through it. To begin to see that you're only getting, you're not even getting five reps. Well, you better make that three. the greatest reps of all time because in practice, train, and rehearse to be a starter, whether you're starting or not, to practice, train, and rehearse being in the NFL, even if you're not, being so clear that this is motivation.

1:18:25The obstacle, it triggers change. Yeah. I believe you talked about that when you were doing your 100. Oh, Marcus Aurelius. Oh, yeah. Well, I think about that, you know, the idea that, you know, there's opportunities inside every obstacle, you know, there's ways to get creative, there's things you could do, there's ways that this can spring you forward. I think it's true on that level. And then it's also true on this deeper level, which is that, you know, okay, what is the, how is the obstacle the way when someone betrays you or when you blow out your knee and you never get to play again, right?

1:19:05There's still opportunities to be excellent, to be great, to be a good person, to be a great teammate. It's not necessarily that every obstacle helps you with what you were trying to do. It's that the obstacle has within it opportunities for you to be great, to be excellent in some form or another, right? Not the one you wanted, not the one that's fun, not the one you were practiced in that you're good at, but still an opportunity. Necessity. Yes. Acceptance. Acceptance, and there's a necessity to change, to create, to innovate. Change comes because of stress. The Grand Canyon is stress. Yeah.

1:19:56Sure. It's beautiful. It's under pressure.

1:20:04So there are stories about people who we all know who it didn't work the way they expected and where they wanted it to go. There's a story about this guy who, John Wooden, was the great coach at UCLA, and he never played this guy, and he hated John Wooden. He just hated him for four years. By the four of you, he despised him. And now the guy is a multimillionaire because he took all the lessons he learned from John. And he talks about how he hated him. But he took everything he learned from him and turned it into an empire. And now he's a multimillionaire giving speeches about John. Right. You think life should give you this.

1:20:50You think this is the direction you're trying to go. and you don't realize that actually this obstacle, which looks a lot more like a brick wall or a wrecking ball or whatever, it's actually just pointing you in this different direction. And if you go in that direction and you follow and you take what's there, many, many years later, that's where you go, oh, the obstacle was the way. Some would argue that no matter what God you believe in, it has a sense of humor. I was going to be in radio, television, and film. Certainly not a bloody social worker, but somehow I was maneuvered into a path that I ended up working with giants.

1:21:33I ended up working with the names that are crazy how many people I've worked with, how many champions I've worked with, how many people who were never champions who end up running institutions and organizations. I've got an intern in social work who is now the VP of Realtors Association of America, the National Realtors. No, and when we think about acceptance, we think of it as this kind of passivity or this weakness. But no, you have to accept this door is closed to be able to go through this door that's opened over here. and if you obsess over the door that's closed yeah you miss yeah yeah all the doors that are over there talking about hey sure beckoning to you come on try this out right it's like controlling the control but are you going to focus on all the things that are not in your control which is by the way most of the world and most of existence and you're going to ignore that you control your thoughts your emotions your decisions you know how hard you you control so much like it's there is plenty still that is in your control, but you can only pick that up once you have let go of the other stuff.

1:22:49And so that's why the mission is clear. I'll teach anyone that'll listen that your mission is to train yourself to stay sane in an insane world. I love that. That's the perfect place to stop. Greg, thank you so much. Thank you, sir. This is amazing.

1:23:17thanks so much for listening if you could rate this podcast and leave a review on itunes that would mean so much to us and it would really help the show we appreciate it and i'll see you next episode.

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