Finding Enough, Getting Sober, and Improving Your Life | Sam Parr PT 2

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2:32Welcome to the Daily Stoic Podcast, where each weekday we bring you a meditation inspired by the ancient Stoics, a short passage of ancient wisdom designed to help you find strength and insight here in everyday life. And on Wednesdays, we talk to some of our fellow students of ancient philosophy, well-known and obscure, fascinating and powerful. With them, we discuss the strategies and habits that have helped them become who they are and also to find peace and wisdom in their actual lives. Setting a kind of stoic intention for the week, something to meditate on, something to think on, something to leave you with, to journal about, whatever it is you happen to be doing.

3:15so let's get into it.

3:46And every time I text him or chat with him, I go, oh, I didn't know that about you. It turns out we're even more in alignment or agreement than I thought. But it's funny, in the second half of this conversation, I had no idea that he had gotten sober, that he'd had this period in his early 20s where he was very much not sober and sort of hit rock bottom. And it was actually just a really interesting conversation, but also a reminder of what I do love about podcasts. And sometimes I have these podcast conversations and I think, why is it only when I'm recording that I get this in depth with people that I know and I learn these things?

4:22Like, what other excuse do I have to sit down and talk for two hours with someone? I never do this and I should do it more. Sam's a great guy. I've been a fan of his work for a long time. That's always a wonderful thing. He's the founder of The Hustle, as I was telling you, built this huge newsletter business out of it. also has Hustle Khan, a one-day conference that teaches non-technical startup tactics. And now he's recently the co-founder of a company called Hampton, which is a membership community for entrepreneurs, founders, and CEOs. He's a prolific podcaster. He has the Hustle podcast and My First Million, which I've been on a couple of times.

4:55So I'll bring you the second half of my conversation with Sam Parr. I thought this was a great conversation. As always, you can follow him on social media at the Sam Parr, get his newsletter, The Anti-MBA, which I will link to, and do check out his podcast, My First Million, which I've been on a couple of times and I'll link to. Thanks to Sam for coming out. I think this is a great conversation. Enjoy.

5:28With writing, there's this sort of debate about like, when can you call yourself a writer? When you become, like when have you, when you, when have you earned the title? Right. And I think early on, you know, you're either jealous or you're judgmental of people who like call themselves a writer. They're obviously not. Right. And then you also don't want to be the person who like, you obviously are it, but you're depriving yourself of it. Right. But yeah, there's this sort of, you, you, you get some sense that like, when you get the thing, you'll be good. You'll have been accepted, you'll have proved it.

6:03And it was never an external thing to begin with. The need was fundamentally internal from the beginning. Some insecurity, some sense of not being enough, your parents not grabbing you at the right moment at the right time and being like, you're good. You're secure. You know, the Mr. Rogers thing, like you make the world better just by being you. And so you have some sense that you can get it if you just achieve X, Y, or Z. If you can just get the medal, the Grammy, you know, the certain amount of bank account. You have a Grammy right here. I do have a Grammy. Is that for you or someone else's?

6:41No, no, I was a producer on an album that won a Grammy. Wow. Okay. So you have a Grammy. Yes. You have sold a shit ton of books. You are probably more successful than a lot of the authors that are all over the place in terms of book sales. Awards or industry challenge. And you're buddies with like world-class athletes as well as authors. Do you feel, I don't know who you admire. I admire Robert Greene. I know you know him well. Sure. Maybe there's like five or 10 others who you're like, this person's the pinnacle. Robert Caro. Yeah. When you are around them, are you like, we aren't the same? Oh, that's a good question.

7:21You know, okay, I'll tell you a story. I heard, you know, Pete Holmes, the comedian. He was talking to some other comedian and she was saying like, do you have like an aspiration to be one of the greats? And he was like, I am one of the greats. And like when I heard it the first time, I was like, that's like, what? You know, that's like arrogant or weird or lame or not true. And then he was like, I am one of the greats. He's like, I've had like a show on HBO. I've done multiple specials. And he's like, I'm proud of the work that like, It sounded like it was coming from a very arrogant place. I think when you first hear it, and as an artist, you're very judgmental because you're like, wait, are they allowed to say that about themselves and I don't say that about myself?

8:03And then I realized, because I know Pete, he's actually coming at it from a very humble place, which is like, he was saying like, great, a great is like someone who just gets to do comedy. You know what I mean? and that like he's done the things and whatever the like who is sold the most sold the most tickets uh you know performed at the best venues the highest rated this or that that's all superfluous stuff well after you know any any any point of necessity and so i kind of think about it like that like so when i if i'm around like people who have done it like i feel like i'm an equal in the sense that we're all, having said this, we're all apprentices in a craft that has no master.

8:45Like we're all just doing the thing. Like they know what it's like to stare at a blank page and start at zero. And I know what it's like. Is there one person or a few people who you'd be self-conscious around? Yeah, I mean, I would be self-conscious around anyone whose work I really like because I'm like, how do you do that? Like, where did that come from? But so I feel equal in the sense that like we're all doing the thing and then i feel uh not equal in the sense that i feel like they have fulfilled uh they they have reached to a plane above that i i think i'm either still aspiring to or that it's not on me to say whether i did or not does that make sense yeah i think like the most intoxicating thing about hanging out you know i have a podcast so i'm able to hang out with successful people success in the sometimes financial sometimes like you've just achieved uh happiness or whatever you've achieved what you want to achieve you've carved a path and you've walked the path the cool part about that is that you see that in actually many cases you guys can be in the same stadium of like iq and ability yes the difference is is that they chose this path and and you chose you chose this path and something or at a certain point choice goes out the window and it's about market and genre and luck is real luck i always tell timing and and also like it's too early to tell you know like it's just it's so really like i think about it's like you're talking about boys club like i just want to be in the league like how many nba players are there each you know at any one time i want to be one of those uh i don't need to be the best and by the way luck is real like i don't like anyone who like like pull yourself a bootstraps like dude like fucking luck is the thing like you work hard and you're lucky like it's all a couple but what i what i've done what i've learned hanging out with all these badasses badass people is that um i've only met a few people where i just think um your oven just burns hotter than me like Like there's just nothing I could ever do will amount to anything you'll do.

10:56So like this guy named Max, he started Grammarly. Yeah. I've hung out with him and I'm like, oh, you're just smarter than like you are just significantly. Like I just, your brain has more power. You can lift more weight than I can just rolling out of bed. Sure. That guy's faster than me. Yeah. But in general, like to achieve, make a success. There's been so many times where I've hung out with people where I'm like, oh no, we're in the same, we're in the same league. Like we're just, it's just up to me. Like I don't want to play this WeWork game that raises lots of money and it's high stress. So it's more so like I now have faith in my ability that I can kick my dent in the earth like pretty nicely.

11:33It's just like, what game do I want to play? And so that's actually quite relieving to have that feeling. And I encourage people to like truly embrace that because I remember like reading you, Noah and all these guys. Now you guys are my buddies. And I'm like, yeah, they're great. but like it's a person maybe if i like they're skilled and talented and all this stuff but i bet if i dedicated 10 years like i could be in that ballpark of like whatever craft if we have uh you know overlap of skill set or an interest i'm like i bet you i could be a decade away from that do you know what i mean and like having that like epiphany has like really changed life you meet like it depending on where you went to school but you go like oh i'm not good enough to go to harbor or something and then when you actually like meet not just like one person that went to harvard but lots of people that have gone to harvard or you know you meet one person that sold a company for a lot of money and then you meet a lot of them you go oh yeah this is you start to get a sense that it's a it's a much more representative pool than you think it is and they aren't these kind of singular individuals that they're that that that pretty much anyone could do it if they they are willing to commit to uh all these things and stay at it long enough to get yeah like i in most cases you you're like a decade away of like being almost as good as your heroes yeah and of course there's freaks like no amount of hard work will ever make me usable yeah but like i bet you i can go to the olympics if i dedicated 10 years and picked some sport like you know like and you game the system you're like you know what i'm saying like like you can you could if you pick the right game or pick a game that you think suits your taste and you give it 10 years you're actually not that far from being uh in the one percent there's also this kind of demystifying thing where i'm not sure there's anything that like the richest person in the world has experienced uh that like like okay obviously what the richest person in the world has experienced is vastly different than what like the poorest person in the world experiences and we're not talking about like what is it what is everything like day to day but um there is very little that a billionaire has experienced that i have not also experienced being relatively having gone just a few steps up the economic ladder do you know what i mean like there's not like i've eaten in what is considered the greatest restaurant in the world it was expensive but it wasn't like and if you want that to be your thing that can be your thing yeah or Or I've flown first class.

14:10I've been on a private jet before. You get this sense that like, oh, everything would change if you got to this level. And it's like, yeah, in the sense that you would do a lot of these unusual things more often, but they're not that different than things that you could experience now. And once you experience them, you go, that was cool. I don't know if it's worth orienting my entire life and making every one of my decisions around being in a position to do that all the time. By the way, I know people who do all these things on a regular basis. There's very few of the things that are actually worth it where it moves the needle.

14:51I think having a nice big house that can house your family when they visit, that's one of those things. I'm not convinced flying private all the time is one of those things, but that could be borderline one of those things. besides that i'm pretty uh maybe some services like uh cleaning and uh but besides that there's not a huge list of things that i actually think moves the needle uh that you can have on a daily basis um our friend nathan barry has his blog post i forget what it was called but he basically like documents he's like you know what's crazy is that jeff bezos and me have the same laptop yes we have the same iphone we have the same we're probably going to use a lot of the similar software, like I can build many of the things that he's able to build.

15:34Like we have, it's, it's, it's almost democratized like what we have access to. And that's actually a really cool idea, I think. No, it's very cool. And then, and then, yeah, you, you go, oh, okay. Like it's not so, so the, so the only reason to do it is, is the delusion that it somehow proves something or makes you superior to other people, which it, which doesn't. We, so I have this company called Hampton, which is like, it's a CEO group, whatever. And we did a survey amongst them. And we, uh, we did, we call, we do surveys all the time where we create cool content for them. Cause we like, you know, we'll have like 500 people who run an e-commerce company and be like, what's your monthly spend on Facebook and what's your, what's your return right now?

16:16And so we'll share it with everyone. We did this one called the wealth survey where we asked them about income, expenses, net worth, what their goals are, um, uh, a variety of things. And what was interesting is we had a bunch of people ranging from 10 ,000 a month in spend all the way up to$200 ,000 a month in spend. This is personal spend. Yeah. And both groups of people, it seemed had about equal. So we asked them like happiness and like, how like satisfied are you? So both groups of people had similar amounts of happiness and both groups of people were like, it doesn't even feel like that much money that I'm spending.

16:48Yeah. And like, and like the higher end guys, they had this, like we'd ask them, um, they could like type in anything they wanted in the comment section. and they'd be like man i just added up how much i spend like i'm shocked like it doesn't even like i feel middle class like i don't even spend that much and i thought that was crazy that you could spend like with this one guy spends 100 grand a month he's like it's not even that much money and i'm like well that is a lot of money but that's crazy that you think that because it must not true like you you're not spending it effectively or something or or it just won't change that much past like maybe 20 grand a month is plenty good versus 150 and it was just insane to hear these people say they spend these numbers and they're like it doesn't feel like a lot it is helpful to realize like one most people have no idea what they're doing uh two most people are not happy these are people who are more successful than you so most people who are very successful you're looking up to or whatever they don't know what they're doing they're not happy uh and also things are not what they seem i was talking to uh molly bloom and uh she's uh molly's game yeah yeah it's like the poker player so she ran this illegal underground poker game for many years she She probably hung out with the richest, most unheavvy people on earth.

17:55Totally. And we were talking about someone we knew and who seemed to live a very lavish lifestyle. And I was like, how is that possible? Like, I know that business. How is that business possible? Like, how is that possible? I was like, it's not adding up, right? I wasn't necessarily comparing myself to it, but I was like, how? Am I doing something wrong that I should be having that if we're in similar business? And she goes, you know, it's always worth remembering they could be criminals. and i was like oh in my in my mind in my frame of reference everyone's doing everything above board everything's legitimate because like of course right paying taxes they should be they're paying their employees on time but but from her perspective having experienced a different world right with like literally the underworld and then also like people who are degenerate gamblers or criminals or or or just like living way outside their means she was just like it was just a totally different lens on thinking about it it's like oh it could literally be all smoke and mirrors Like none of it could be real.

18:55And it could all come crashing down at any moment. And that was like really helpful to me. Cause now I, I just sort of, I don't do it in a judgy way. I do it in a way that's letting me off the hook. When I see some, I just go like, I have no idea what's happening there behind the scenes, but it could be the opposite of what it appears. And I'm just going to like focus on my stuff. Who have you met? Like which heroes or people you've looked up to? Have you met and they've lived up to the hype that you created in your head? and you've thought to yourself, this person has nailed it. I really admire.

19:25And like, not that you trade with them, but you're like, that's something to build to. That is a good life. That's a life worth living. I would say first though, that idea, like you realize there are almost no people that you would trade places with. Of course. Right? So when you're jealous or when you're insecure, you're comparing yourself to other people, you have to remind yourself, you can't do partial trades. Like it's all or nothing, right? You got to live inside that head and you have to think about things the way they think about them. You don't get to have your values, your perspective, your knowledge, your age.

19:58You don't get to have any of that other stuff. It's the whole kit and caboodle and it's suddenly the trade doesn't look so attractive. You're trying to have what you have and what they have. I'm sure you've hung out with people where you're like, they're nailing it. Oh, yeah. I'm just saying like, I think it's worth pointing out that like that's the stupidity of jealousy is that like you find when you really look at it. Yeah, it's all bullshit. You would almost never trade places. When you read that Elon Musk biography, like I've refused to read it because I don't really love him, but I respect his work.

20:33But I like I read the excerpts and I'm like, this sounds like the most high stress. It sounds like it's horrible. I don't want to read a scary book. yeah no it sounds like it's absolutely horrible to be him and that that all of it comes at a very high cost oh yeah uh for sure uh yeah i think there's people i've met here or there that i would go oh that they seem like they're doing it right it's also i i try not to like call people out specifically because i also feel like not that it's unfair but like i'm sure it's i'm sure they're dealing with shit in their own life and they they don't want to be held up as like the perfect person who's kind of like figured it out i'm just being like you got a good handle on things like you're doing all right i really i admire yeah i and it's funny though like when what are the things that tend to make you feel that way about someone it's not it's normally like what's their marriage like do their kids like them yeah you know like how chill is their life you know like how how good do they seem it's it's not normally like no no this guy could throw the ball further than this guy or this woman is more beautiful than that woman it's it's usually comes down to things that are really cheap.

21:40So I live out in the country most of the time. And I remember at some point during the pandemic, I was walking down the road to my house. And my house, it was cheap comparative to what it's worth now because everything in Austin blew up. But my house wasn't cheap. It's more than most people could afford. But I was thinking like, what do I like about it? And I live on literally a dirt road. Many of my neighbors are trailers. I have more land than most of my neighbors. I have a nicer house than most of my neighbors. But I was like, what do I love about where I live? What are the things? And it's like, I love the way the sun sets and the way it rises.

22:23I love that it is a dirt road and it can't ever be a paved road. I love the deer that wander around. I love all the things about it that my neighbor who is living in a trailer also gets. And sort of remembering that the things that are actually valuable or that you appreciate or provide most of the meaning or happiness are not the expensive, fancy things is really important. And I think you see that with people too. The things you admire about them are not the things that they paid for.

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26:07it's like character and kindness and you know have you met um laird hamilton uh i've met um his wife his wife yeah laird came on our podcast because i was a huge fan of his he's a person who i think like i admire so i he has so many qualities that i admire the way that they built this home and they it's like become a center of community i love that the way that he prioritizes family and surfing and then like business is like number four or five or six i'm I was like, I admire that guy a lot. I admire him. Do you know Rob, Rob Dyrdek? Yep. We had him on the pod and I skateboard as well. And when they pitched us to him, I'm like, I don't want a fucking skateboarder coming on here.

26:48And then he came on and he blew my mind. Like how like dialed in. He doesn't skateboard anymore though. No, not even. And he's so dialed in to like, and I'm not dialed in like that at all. And I don't want to be like that. But I like, he was like, I like to spend this much time with my family. I'm only going to work from nine to five. and i know like and then from noon to one we'll have lunch like he's dialed in and i really and he's got a really positive outlook on life and i appreciate him um but i think those two guys are who i've talked to where i'm like i respect the shit out of you also um darmesh the guy who founded um hubspot they come up have you ever talked to that guy no he bought your company right he bought my company he's a billionaire which which is cool but what i'm what i'm like he like he's like hey i'm teaching my kid how to code so we made this website and it's like a game website and it's like now really popular and like i just like appreciate these family men yes who are loyal to their wives it's one of the reasons why i love john rockefeller he's one of the few people who i've read about who was mostly honest uh-huh he only lied like one or two times like publicly where it was like blatantly like dude that's a lie you just lied he was loyal to his wife the whole time he was a little tough on his children but in general he was a wonderful father and so i try i seek out these like guys so like um i i think on your suggestion i read patriarch joe kennedy oh i i don't think i recommended that book but i i'm familiar with joe kennedy horrible guy the worst the worst uh but like i wanted him to be awesome and so like it's actually quite rare to find these people that meet this traditional uh when you see the trauma of that family continuing to this yeah it's like you wouldn't trade it for any of that why is why is robert f kennedy jr a piece of shit it's because joe kennedy was a piece of shit yeah it continues down to this day it's crazy and so like i look for these characters that like are mostly awesome like mostly well-rounded good men there's and there's not a significant amount of amount of them who have books that are also fun to read uh but like rockefeller is one of them um i think he only lied like a few times and uh he was a good he seemed like a good husband yes uh but well what's interesting about rockefeller speaking of trauma is like his dad sucked his dad was horrible it's not that you grade people like willie or something yeah it's not that you grade people on a curve but the idea that uh he seemed to do better than you would expect from where he came from i think you have to give some people some credit there yeah and there's not a lot so like some of the books i've seen you recommend you love the lyndon b johnson series right uh he was kind of not that great of a guy oh no i don't think that that book is celebrating him as a great no i don't think so either uh teddy roosevelt you've recommended a lot of books by him dude he fucking bailed on his kid like his i believe um his wife gave birth to the kid the wife died that day and his mother died that day in the same home yes and weeks later he bounces to the dakotas or whatever for like 15 months or something like that and it's like you're a great american and you do all these great things but like fucking bailed on your your kid like that's messed up so like it's it's interesting to like see like all these people i admire and then to see all the flaws that come with them and it's actually hard to find a lot of people who you're like that's the way to live yeah i mean how many u.s presidents were not absolute garbage people or complete psychopaths like it's probably you could narrow it down to 10 and then you could debate those 10 right we always say uh i always say um all great men are evil men.

30:17All great men are bad men. Meaning in order to be great, you know, like great at the level. If they build a statue of you, chances are you did some real fucked up shit. Yeah. And I remember like someone was like, well, I like Obama. I'm like, okay, cool. You can like him. But I bet you like those people who got droned, like don't, you know what I mean? Like in order to like achieve greatness. It also takes a while. It's too early to, I mean, look, it doesn't always take a while. Sometimes, you know, someone's a monster from the beginning. Well, you don't have to be a monster to also be bad. No, no.

30:43But I'm saying sometimes like the rottenness of the person is obvious from day one. And then sometimes you find the secret that they're hiding or the secret life or whatever actually wasn't great about them, only a small circle of people knew about. It took time. It took time to be revealed and Obama's still living. So I think he's pretty great. I think he's a great guy. But what I mean is you're going to piss people off. In order to achieve anything on a large scale, there are going to be a lot of unhappy people with you. Right. Because you're making decisions. I mean, look, he's the president of America, not the president of the country that he's droning.

31:25Right. And so that's the problem with being a leader is that you're leading one group of people, not all groups of people. And involve a weighing of interests, which inherently leads to, you know, at that level, treating human beings as not as valuable as other human beings. Yeah. And maybe that's a big takeaway for this episode, which is like, I've been so fortunate to like meet all these badass people. so have you people i admire and uh and uh there's weaknesses in all of them like what yeah of course what are you eating here oh it's just a mint with caffeine this is caffeine yeah how much uh i think two is a cup of coffee two is one cup of coffee yeah you drink caffeine no i don't drink coffee i don't drink coffee this isn't gonna make me anxious or jittery uh i don't think so I didn't mean for this to be an ad for a moment.

32:26But yeah, I don't do coffee. I don't do soda. Do you drink? No. I don't drink either. Why not? I was an alcoholic. Oh. Yeah. When did you get sober? I was intoxicated every day from like the age of 20 to like the age of 23. Okay. 24 hours a day. yeah it was pretty bad i went to jail yeah it sucked um and then i think it was at age 23 or 24 i was like i went cold turkey and i got um withdrawals i got hospitalized because you start getting seizures and stuff uh so it was like an it was an ordeal other than the consequences what i helped you get sober it's it's fucking cringe when i say it but i was watching this concert it was oasis uh-huh i was watching on youtube oasis is famous because they threw the biggest concerts they kind of invented this like huge big concert thing in england there was like a hundred thousand people there was one of the biggest concerts in the world and i saw no gallagher barely singing he was singing very lightly you know he wasn't that lot of a singer but the the the sound was um was so loud and all these people were singing back to them i was like this guy's exerting so little energy and he's getting so much energy back and having such a big impact I think I have the ability to do that but I'm a fucking loser right now I'm sitting here intoxicated I just got out of jail I'm just a total fucking loser and I remember like having that feeling I'm like I gotta get my shit together and so I had a bunch of false starts and then eventually I just it took like six weeks or something and I just locked myself in a room and just got over it um it was pretty hard um but that happened and then I got arrested one time I got like arrested like two or three times I got arrested one time and I spent 24 hours in jail and my dog was left alone in my house and i got home and he had shit all over the house and i'm like dude i just totally failed you man i'm so sorry you're my responsibility and i let you down and i just felt like my heart was broken and so like those two things like got my act together and you just did it uh total willpower no the first time i did but then i got hospitalized and i was like screw it i'm gonna i'm getting back on it and then the second time i was like i'm doing this and i just like bought like a blood pressure machine to make sure it wasn't getting too high because the first time I got hospitalized from blood pressure issues um and I just like monitored it and I was like I'm just saying you you you did it like you went to rehab or you no you did no no no I went to AA a couple times but no I just um took three or four weeks off of life and I just stayed at home for and what and what allows you to stay sober again just pure discipline or yeah yeah yeah yeah do you feel like you're on the edge always no you feel like it's No.

35:17Well, I feel like if I go to the hospital, like, for example, I have kidney stones. And if they give me pain pills, I'm like, I can only have three. You can give me one now. I'll take one home. My wife can have the other one. Or they'll give you like 60 of them. And when we go get it and Sarah put the three in the bag, go throw those away right now. So I feel like you can go down. I feel like I don't crave alcohol anymore because I drink non-alcoholic beer. that helps a ton. But I have a propensity to be addicted to things. I do nicotine, so I like to suck on Zin. And then for a long time, it was sugar was my thing where I was just like, I'll just eat as much candy as I want and I'll address that at a later date in order to help me get off alcohol.

36:00No, no, I think I have the exact, whatever the thing that makes someone an addict, I have. And then, you know, we all have our traumas, whatever might've been a sort of a more profound trauma or experience that might have sealed it early for me. I feel like lucky enough to have escaped. But then I feel like if it is possible to get addicted to a thing, I can get addicted to that thing. I can do that. And it's important to know that. Yeah. And it's lucky to be able to know that about yourself is a thing that I think a lot of people have to blow up their entire lives to be able to figure out. But yeah, I sort of feel like I'm always...

36:42it's just better not i just bet for me i'm like a better not person yeah and i think that that's important to realize i think that if i had a bet i'm from missouri so i live in new york a little bit i live in san francisco and austin all three are like yuppie health conscious places the middle america middle america of the south like the normal part of the country i actually would gay if i had a bet i would say 35 are alcoholics i think it's like way more common And then people realize they don't call it alcoholism. The society functions around making that seem normal. Yeah. I think young people now drink way less.

37:17So it's actually different amongst young people, but older people, the 40 to 60 year olds, I think going to the bar after work is quite normal. I think that more people than you realized do what I used to do, which is you wake up and you chug beers before you get out of bed. I think that's far more common, I think, than most people realize. So I think it's pretty crazy how many people are addicted to something. yes um particularly now um pharmaceuticals so like whatever that is i mean i used to love that shit too i mean it's awesome it makes you feel awesome until it doesn't but i think like a large percentage a percentage of america is actually would be a true addict um but people don't talk about it uh that much but yeah anyway i had issues and also like meeting a great woman helps i think you have this blog post where you say like um what was your blog post about your wife it was um the best life hack on earth is who you pick uh-huh is that what it was something like that yeah um i firmly believe that to be true so like getting a good woman or a good man where it's one plus one equals three that like makes life a thousand times better i think as a rule you're talking about the how rare it is to find like a successful powerful or whatever person you admire almost to a to a person there is another person involved in that equation and that's why they either didn't go over to the dark side or why they didn't make this mistake or that mistake or what.

38:41I would say, I think quite unequivocally, being married ties you down. In a good way. Yes, in a good way. It ties you down to reality, which if you are a successful, ambitious, and then at some point famous or well-known or well-respected person or extremely talented person, you are very susceptible to being puffed up, to floating away, to becoming unmoored because you are lacking the ballast that holds a normal person down. And so you almost need it more than ever. Well, the way that I, the visualization I have in my head is a lot of people who like to achieve were just cars with our back wheels jacked up and we're going pedal the metal.

39:29And what you have to do and it helps when you have a good partner is you got to like set that car in the right direction and then pull the plug and boom you can go and for me i i was going in that direction so like up until recently i still like i used to sleep on the street sometimes like i literally thought i was going to be a homeless person i thought i was going to be a homeless person in jail that's what because you were drinking so much yeah and i was just like i'm going to be a criminal like this is like i just want to party this is like my life and like i remember there'd be times i'd wake up on a bench and i'm like the fuck where are we okay or like when i got to san francisco i to sneak on the bus because i didn't have any money yeah like and like i was just like i'm just gonna be a vagrant like this is just my life and so you have to like get if you're this car that's moving that you gotta get help you gotta figure out something to get pointed in that right direction otherwise if you get too far down that path you're fucked and i think that if you do get too far that too far down that path there is no turning back i mean have you ever met someone who recovered from heroin like most of them are still messed up in some capacity sometimes it works.

40:29A lot of times it doesn't. I have this story in the book that I'm writing now, the justice one. Do you know the story of Bunkminster Fuller, the architect? So he's sort of failing as an architect. He's just been kicked out of Harvard. He's a drinking problem. He just buried one of his children and he's staring out over Lake Michigan. And he's like, I'm just going to swim out there far enough until I drown. He's just going to like kill himself. He's like standing on the edge of it, just sort of contemplating what a loser he is, the mistakes that he's made, that it's sort of all over for him. And he hears his voice and the voice basically says, how dare you?

41:05He's like, how dare you think this belongs to you? That's interesting. Not just because he had children, but what he took the voice to mean was like, you have potential, you have gifts. you have the potential to contribute to humanity. You have the obligation to - And you're fucking blowing it. Yeah, to contribute to humanity. And not just have you blown it up until this point, you're about to blow it all up, right? Like you're about to quit instead of realizing that potential. And that voice sort of brings him back from the edge and he goes on to be this sort of fascinating, sort of influential character.

41:42And hopefully, we'd say also sort of makes it right with his kids and his spouse and his family and is just also like a nice, decent human being. Maybe that's too much to ask. I don't know. But the idea is like, it doesn't belong to you. Like you have, I think anyone with gifts or potential or talent, it comes with certain obligations. So I know writers - That's why I think getting married is awesome. We have a lot of friends, you and I, mutual friends, who are, I call them Peter Pans. Yes, they're children. They're 43 year old men who are single. And if you're single because you haven't found the right person, yeah, cool.

42:16but sometimes I think, well, you're not settling down because you want, you're like missing, you feel like you're going to be held back and that's loser talk. That means you have the wrong person. Um, and that's the wrong attitude. If you want to be single, be single, but that, that reason. And so what a lot of our friends will do is they turn to psychedelics. Yes. And I'm like, you know, what would be a much better psychedelic, have a kid or get a dog, do anything where other people rely on you and so you are now thinking to yourself not i am lost you are thinking i need to provide for this yes i need to give to others and that is a significantly better i think experience i'm actually in favor i don't do any drugs i don't do psychedelics i'm in favor in some cases of that but in general i think that people go too far down that path and i'm like dude just have like someone that relies on you and you will feel better i i just i don't like the idea that there's some magical solution to your existential problems, right?

43:13Like the question of what gives life meaning or how do you make sense of pain or failure or adversity or grief or mistakes that you've made in your life. Like welcome to the human condition. Like humans have been wrestling with that exact thing for as long as there have been human beings. And the idea that you can have some shaman in Peru, like mix a paste for you and then they'll magically go away. I think like some of that, I've never done that stuff. I imagine it could be one tool in the toolbox, you know, like I do, but like, I've got a bunch of friends that are veterans and they're like, I had huge issues and this has helped like help me come to terms with some of the trauma.

43:50I'm like, all right, I agree. I think that's awesome. But, uh, I tweeted this out and I got shit on a lot where I'm like, all you people that are doing psychedelics, like have children or something like think beyond who you are or have employees or do something where it's like, I have to serve others. So it's no longer about what am I? Put down roots, be an adult, do adult things and, uh, get comfortable with that. Yeah, I agree. Look, if you have profound, uh, uh, untreatable traumas, uh, by all means experiment with that because the other things that they have you experiment with are also super heavy.

44:28But if you can't figure out why scrolling on Tinder every day isn't doing it for you and why financial success hasn't done it for you and fame hasn't done it for you, and you just think this is finally going to be the thing that is doing it for you, I think you're just fooling yourself and you're being obnoxious. And then worse, worse, what I really don't like about it. And again, I know people who are serious about it. They support like actual research in it and blah, blah, blah. So I'm not talking about that. But I am very disturbed by the casualness with which people who have zero medical training tell other people that drugs are the solution to their problems.

45:11You know what I mean? Like there is this weird tendency, especially among broken people, to find something. And then tell everyone else that it's the solution to their problems when really they're just projecting and trying to convince themselves that they have solved their problems. No. I've done shrooms when I was like partying, but I've never done any of that stuff medicinally. I've done it one time, shrooms one time. Never like medicinally. I refuse to do any of it. I'm going to fall off the cliff. Like I feel like I'm like I can't do any of this stuff. but I respect some, in some cases I respect it, but I, I, I'm reluctant to fuck with your brain chemistry, uh, which I believe can't be unfucked once it's been fucked with.

45:58And then I think we're all also, because we either, and this is more of a problem, like in the surf community, you and I are in, uh, because we don't want to be judgmental. Uh, we don't want to like call anyone out publicly um uh i think we're all just dancing around the fact that a bunch of these people have lost their fucking minds and it's all traceable back to that uh and they're not even just like nuts like they're doing horrendous things to people around them and then also to society with the nonsense that they're spreading so like i i think it like uh I think sort of the proof is in the pudding when you look at the impact it's had on the lives of the people who do it a lot.

46:46The people were like, I did it once and I got over this thing with my parents and I told them I loved them and now we're good. Like, sure, whatever. I don't have a problem with that. With a person who becomes the evangelist and the guru about it, I struggle to come up with a case in which it did not end horribly. yeah it's like polygamy or an open relationship yes i'm like i don't know man i don't know if that's gonna end well if you think it's gonna do you should do whatever makes you happy but also you should just shut the fuck up about it and uh like let's see how it works exactly um do you have any vices i have a ton of vices like what like any chemical uh any chemical vices no probably those mints are the only the only substance i take on a consistent basis that like you know in a perfect world i would not take do you scroll your on your phone a lot uh yes uh i i have a phone that has instagram on it um that i you know like have at my house that i don't like carry around with me and sometimes i like sometimes i'll get sucked down a rabbit hole my wife will be like you're browsing more than you want to be and i'll be like i'll just throw it as your browsing entertainment or like fitness people or what uh no i think i'm i'm it's more just like mindless funny like silly stuff silly stupid stuff and then and then i tell myself uh one out of a hundred things comes up with something cool that i do for daily still that's like good so so you know that's what say about twitter no twitter twitter is the worst i mean look at look at what twitter has cost elon musk in every way and i go that is worse than so you don't use twitter at all uh i have not logged on or touched twitter in many many years every once in a while there'll be a link to something on twitter that i want to see and someone will link to me and then because he broke it and now you can't see whole threads i go oh yeah fuck and then i close it that's so i i think twitter has broken, more successful people I admire than psychedelics.

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51:19It's happened about five times where I've worked with someone as I'm friends with them. They're either very wealthy or they are a professional athlete or whatever they are. They're like just the best, you know, but they're not popular on the internet. So maybe I'll name one person like Chris Pronger. So Chris Pronger, famous hockey player. He's like the second or third highest earning hockey player of all time. Okay. but that was like 20 years ago and he's hockey is not terribly popular, whatever successful. And, and they're like, Hey, I want to get popular on Twitter. And I was like, yeah, dude, I'll just help you write this a handful of things.

51:55And I'll just tell you how it works. They do it and it blows up. Yeah. And I'm like, don't fall down this trap. You have one already. You don't need this. And they all get addicted to it where they're like, I want more. I'm like, dude, I only have an audience and I'm only trying to be popular online because I This is the skill set I had and I have to do it for my job. You don't need this job. Don't sign up for it. Of all the mediums, it's also the least conducive to growth or development, right? Because it's the smallest space. It encourages certainty and immediacy. And it is the most inherently, I think, antagonistic.

52:36And so I think it's all the outside and almost no upside. I would disagree. There is upside. I think that you can find smart people and you can get inside there. You could hear their thoughts. So Instagram is picture based. So it's what you look. I can take a picture that makes me artificially look good. It's much harder to hide bad ideas in good writing. And it exists out there. But good writing is inherently not done in the medium that is Twitter. No, that's nonsense. That's all you're only saying that because. Threaded writing is a medium inherently not conducive to good thinking. And that is why, like, think about it, right?

53:17Like Twitter, or sorry, Instagram, the other social networks exist because they made it possible to do a thing that like literally was not possible to do before. But you're putting value on long being good. No, I'm saying that the way the mind works and the way that ideas are best communicated, uh human beings have been experimenting with writing for thousands of years right and there's a reason we don't communicate to each other in like 140 character chunks or that we don't communicate to each other in like weird threaded writing there's a reason we developed the mechanisms by which we communicate because it engenders good thinking from the people doing the thinking and then it requires reflection and, you know, consideration from the person reading it.

54:07I think the medium of Twitter of like react to something in real time or even just express what you're thinking as you're thinking it is by definition bad thinking. Let me give you a counter example. There's a guy I love. He's one of my favorite people to follow. So I don't follow too many business people. I don't follow news. I don't pay attention to the news. there's a guy named uh dye work wear um and it is all about fashion and the history of fashion yeah this morning or not this morning a few months ago a month ago he wrote this amazing post about um how uh the japanese so you like like vintage american fashion the best shits from japan now have you ever noticed that okay so like like i've got fancy jeans on that are american jeans they're actually made in Japan.

54:49Yeah, sure. And so he did this amazing post where he explained how Japan, when the Americans occupied them after World War II, Japan thought the Americans were going to slaughter them. The Americans were actually pretty kind. They're like, we're going to try and like make you guys love us. So hopefully we don't have fights again, whatever. And so because of that, the Japanese were like, all right, cool. Let's be friends. I love that fashion. And it warped into this American fashion plus Japanese craftsmanship and created this amazing like a new genre of fashion he wrote this whole thread on this was 2000 words i was like so inspired that i went and bought this book called how japan saved american fashion i read it i learned all about uh culture the culture of japan it was amazing and i that was all for all because of twitter so i don't know how you could like dismiss it as like there's no i mean you just described what blogging is or what articles are right but so so you can get those outside of twitter and And that's where I would say that's where I would consume my information.

55:46And the fact that there is some non-garbage on Twitter is not an argument for why one would spend time on Twitter. No, but it is an argument that there is upside along with some. You said there's virtually no upside in all the outside. What I'm saying is that inherently the medium is designed to compress and distort thinking. so even when you see good stuff that stuff would have been better in another medium right so yeah that would have been better outside of the twitter algorithm or or the twitter culture and so like i feel very fortunate to have been able to live in a time where discoverability like twitter is where like billy who works for me billy oppenheimer uh oh is that him back here yeah yeah oh i love billy i know his work he lives in a world where to to break out as a writer a finger like that was doing back there yeah billy i love your ship man i follow you i think you're great no he's great i'm just saying like that is not where i i think that's a wicked environment to develop as a finger and to win attention as a finger and so like i think if you can avoid being on it and if you can avoid consuming on it it's almost certainly better for your mental health your brain develop all across the board i think it's the it's the again it's the most i think it's most toxic and this is demonstrated by the fact that it not only ruined elon musk before he bought it but it's something broken in the algorithm literally made him light 20 30 billion dollars it broke his it broke his brain in every way you can imagine if you're a young person listening to this here's what i think they should do um the era from like 05 to like 15 of blogging was so good that's right all that stuff still exists and you can go back and it still exists and so you need to go back and read it and so i use web archive all the time to go back and look at websites and how they used to be like you could actually find old blog posts yeah that's how i found you was through thought catalog yeah which isn't even a thing no they they they bought a column for me every week for like two years or something so i liked that and then i also liked um um you know what was crazy is ryan holiday and gavin mckinnis were on the same blog like i mean there's another person who is who is broken by the algorithm probably twitter i mean that's what rad he i knew gavin because he was an advertiser uh american peril would advertise in advice and he was sort of actually i think he's a performance artist or is he actually insane i mean i think he was uh an interesting thinker and then kind of had a performance artist and And then I think there's that saying like fame is a mask that eats the face.

58:24I think it revealed underneath like real bigotry and awfulness and sort of a fascistic impulse. And he created a literal gang that was instrumental in literally attempting to overthrow the United States government. So if you want to talk again about how sort of being terminally online and like fighting in culture war issues online and sort of responding to what gets engagement and whatever, what that can do to a person. I mean, like, well, his story is insane. It fucking broke him. And then he in turn nearly broke the United States. Well, like his whole thing. So I used to read him on Thought Catalog and I used to watch his videos and he was a really good writer.

59:05Yeah, he's very funny. And he's very funny. And you read his old vice stuff and you're like, oh, you push the, you push the limit. and i always thought of him as a comedian as well as an artist who just gets off i'm pushing the limit which i love those types of people and then i was like wait what's proud boys like oh that's funny or it's a joke it's a misogynistic social club that turns into a game and then it becomes a thing and and i have no idea i've never i don't listen to him anymore but i was always in my head i was like i think this guy just started a gag and it just like well another great do you know who jp sears is yeah he's like has the red hair yeah the woke thing yeah he started this he started on all the different social networks as basically a parody of like extreme like uh sort of woo woo like uh yoga then he bought into it well no and then and then he became this person who performed for the algorithm so he'd make fun of like whatever was in the moment but it became like Like surfing the algorithm and being like, you know, sort of making fun of stuff and getting attention kind of became his personality.

1:00:11And then he became during the pandemic, like, you know, what horseshoe theory is where he just went from one end of the horseshoe all the way to the other end of the horseshoe and is like a monstrous moron. Like I say that in the sense of like, he's very stupid, but the things he is stupid about have monstrous impacts on, on society and the world. And that like, that's what happened. That's what like, these things are, uh, I think much more dangerous than people want to talk about. And they, and they, they can like audience capture is very real and it can fuck with you. And, and just like when I, as I've been doing this for 20 years now, I've watched people go from like, oh, they're very normal.

1:00:55And then I'm like, holy shit, I can't believe I once knew that person. And then you're like watching what they do. It's crazy. But that era, right when you were coming up of 05 to like 15, I think that was like a little bit, not quite pre-social, but almost. If you're young and you're listening to this, try and find all those blog posts. Those blog posts that I just read those all the time, like the whole idea of a blog roll where you would see at the bottom, Ryan recommends these people. to these people and it was so good i like the writing and the creation i think like people talk about creators nowadays or a crater or what do they call just creators yeah and i way prefer like these bloggers it was a better medium nerdy people really nerdy sometimes hermit style people but they it was less pranks or whatever youtube is and these like really interesting well thought out posts and so i go to hacker news every day you ever go to hacker news so hacker news is still like a like a check out this article from this person you've never heard of yeah and it's all like 8 000 words on some super in-depth topic and you're like oh that's really cool and maybe that's all that person had in them they never wrote anything good i loved it yeah i loved it i love that era of writing that's one of my favorite eras i'm doing um i'm doing a chapter on that in my book now like writing to think there's a reason amazon if you like have an idea or you want to call a meeting you have to like write a long memo like a six-page memo yeah like Like Jeff Bezos doesn't say like do a 240 character summation of what we're going to talk about.

1:02:23No, no, no, no. You have to spend some time to figure out what the fuck you're talking about and what you're thinking about. Yeah, because you can't hide bad ideas in writing. Yes. You'll very clearly see it's bad. You can hide bad ideas in Twitter threads and Instagram posts and in a one minute TikTok. You know, all those mediums are deceptive because, you know, they say you can't call it an honest man. Right. Like your audience is trying to hack the process. They're trying to get like in-depth information in a very short period of time. And so like I play with all those tools at Daily Stoic because I think I can do it within - Well, I love your YouTube channel.

1:02:57I think because your videos are like 18 and 25 minutes long. Sometimes, yeah. And whenever I watch them, you have beautiful background music. It feels like a movie. Dawson makes all those. Dude, those are so good. I watch them all the time. But those are, a lot of them are collections of shorter things. Yeah, but they're the best. I love them. Like I always do the ones, there's like different like leadership ones and whatever. because I actually feel like I do them when I go for walks. I always listen to you because... I put out one of those, just the audio of one of them each week on the podcast.

1:03:28I don't even know that. I always go to YouTube. I forget which day of the week it is, but one day of the week of the episode, I do the email. I just read the email and then I just take the audio from one of the YouTube videos. Dude, it's the best. You did another one about money and philosophers. Yeah. That's so good. What are you laughing about? No, that's funny. No, it's very nice. No, I listen to all of them. I'm a huge fan of the Daily Stoic YouTube channel. Yeah. I listen to so many of them. I've heard all of them. I remember you used to... I always search for the ones where it's just on one person.

1:04:03Yeah, I know. I need to make more of those. And you haven't done more of those. Lately, it's been aggregating a variety of lessons to learn. I'm like, no, no, no. I just want the deep dive on this one. All right, I'll do. I wrote a whole book about this. I did a book called Lives of the Stoics, which is a bios of each of the Stoics. But for some reason, I like your voice and I like the music that you have behind it. Because it does a good job of setting up tension and releasing tension. It's like a little bit of a movie. You know what I'm saying? Yes, of course. And I thoroughly enjoy that. And usually they were like 15 to 25 minutes.

1:04:30And so like on a walk, I would do two. I love it. I really like the Daily Stoic. A shit ton of history. And it basically was a history podcast that I was listening to. Well, you want to call this here and I'll show you some history books in the bookstore? Yeah, I'm down. All right.

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