Greeking Out’s Kenny Curtis on How Ancient Myths Teach The Human Experience

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1:19Welcome to the weekend edition of The Daily Stoic. Each weekday, we bring you a meditation inspired by the ancient Stoics, something to help you live up to those four Stoic virtues of courage, justice, temperance, and wisdom. And then here on the weekend, we take a deeper dive into those same topics. We interview Stoic philosophers. We explore at length how these Stoic ideas can be applied to our actual lives and the challenging issues of our time. Here on the weekend, when you have a little bit more space when things have slowed down. Be sure to take some time to think, to go for a walk, to sit with your journal, and most importantly, to prepare for what the week ahead may bring.

2:10Hey, it's Ryan. Welcome to another episode of the Daily Stoic Podcast. I guess this is our first Saturday episode of 2025. I hope your year is off to a good start. You know, we tend to think of Stoicism as a Roman philosophy. Marx Reus was, after all, the emperor of Rome. But what language was he writing meditations in? It was Greek. That was the language of philosophy. And that was also the origin place of Stoicism. Zeno, in the 4th century BC, comes to Athens. He's introduced to Cynic philosophy. He has the exchange in the bookstore. goes on, founds the Stoapokile, Stoam meaning porch. That's where the word Stoicism comes from.

2:59And for several hundred years, Stoicism is a Greek philosophy. In fact, when it came to Rome, Cato's great-great-grandfather was against it. He didn't like the effeminate Greeks. He didn't like their foreign ideas infiltrating Rome. Although the Romans would eventually take over Stoic philosophy, it had always been Greek and Greek influence, all of which is to set up today's episode, which is one I'm super excited about and is going to have one of the cuter things that we've ever done this podcast, because this is one of the few guests that my oldest son, Clark, asked to be on the podcast. So when we were in Australia this summer for those talks I was doing, I don't know how, but my wife came on this podcast.

3:44My son loves audiobooks, and he exhausted this series we were listening to, and I guess she was looking for like podcasts for kids. And she found this National Geographic Kids Greeking Out podcast. My guest, Kenny Curtis today will explain sort of the origin stories of the podcast. But basically, Greeking Out started as this podcast where they would retell some of the famous Greek myths, the Odyssey, etc. And for some reason, my son was just immediately hooked. And we listened to all 10 seasons of this podcast, literally dozens and dozens of hours of this podcast. And it's riveting. It's for kids.

4:19It's fun. It's not just Greek myths. There's Roman myths in there. There's Egyptian myths in there. It's just awesome. I love it. And I love that my son loves it. I've said this before. One of my favorite things in the bookstore is when somebody comes in and they're older and they tell me that they found my books from their kids. So I try to be open-minded to the things that my kids are into. Now was I, as excited to listen to the whole podcast again? Do I like it when we have to spin it and pick a random episode and listen to it for the third or fourth time? Not so much. But again, there's worse things to have your kids be excited about than a podcast about Greek history.

5:00So Kenny Curtis is the host of Greeking Out. And when I said this was cute, it's not just cute because my son was into it. But my son heard that I was going to have Kenny on the podcast. He asked if he could ask a few questions. So he was at his grandparents that day. The episode was in the middle of the day. And so I called them and I said, hey, I'm going to send you a Riverside link. That's how we record the episodes remotely. I'm going to send you a Riverside link and don't tell Clark what's happening just yet, but pop him on. And so, you know, I'm recording this episode. Then all of a sudden, just a third face pops into the screen.

5:37And there's my son, Clark, and he has prepared very in-depth questions. And he was just so serious. It was just the absolute cutest thing. I loved it so much. And then it was funny. We were trying to wrap up. Like, okay, buddy, all right, you go play. And he's like, I have another question. Like he just took it so seriously. And it was, I don't know, one of my favorite episodes I've ever gotten to do. And I think you're really gonna like this. Clark has gotten a bunch of his friends at school to listen to this podcast. it's reminded me of things that I knew about Greek myths or that I wanted to research more.

6:11Like this informed Daily Stoic emails. It's informed things I've written in my books, which is, you know, again, hilarious, which is why you support your kids because you never know what door they are going to end up opening for you. So check out National Geographic's Kids Greeking Out. You can follow Kenny on Instagram and Twitter at Kenny Curtis Talk. That's Kenny with a K, Curtis with a C. And here's Kenny and I talking the value of these ancient stories, what they tell us about the world today, and then how Stoicism and other religions and philosophy have been passed down through the generations.

6:48And I guess this is the first one featuring my son Clark. Enjoy. Talk soon.

6:57I'm waiting for my eight-year-old to log in. He wants to say hi. He's a huge fan. Awesome. That's cool. He's very excited. I have probably listened. Well, we've listened to every episode in all 10 seasons, many of them more than one time. Oh, that's great. That is awesome. Repeat customers. We love those. Yes. I don't know how we found it. I think it was a random thing from the algorithm. And now, let's see, we discovered it in July and we made it through all 10 seasons. and looped back around pretty deep into it a second time. So that should give you a sense of his tendency and how into it he got.

7:39That's amazing. We are just ready. We're just about ready to do season 11. There he is. That's Clark. You can see the top of your head and it looks good. It looks good. Clark, you had a question, right? Bring it, Clark. I'm ready. I'm ready. Bring it. Yes. Do your kids like your podcast? You know, yes. Yes, they do. Which kind of shocks me. Here's the big story. I have seven kids. And my oldest kid is probably your dad's age. My oldest daughter, Jillian Hughes, actually writes the books and the podcast with me. She's actually my co-writer and she helps me research and write all this stuff. So she loves the podcast because she writes it.

8:16My youngest kids are teenagers and I did not think they would dig it as much as they do. But it actually came in very handy in their history classes because they're like, well, actually, my dad has a podcast, wrote a few books about Greek mythology. and so they were into that. And my grandkids, my daughter's kids, of course, listen to it. Their mom wrote it, so maybe they're a little prejudiced, but yeah, they really like it. It's really fun to do something, you know, that you love doing. I hope when you grow up, you get a job that you enjoy doing as much as I have enjoyed doing this because it beats having a real job any day of the week.

8:53Clark is asking because he can't comprehend a world in which someone's kids like their dad's work. So I get it. I get it. Well, you know, Clark, before I did this, I hosted a kids radio show on Sirius XM for years, for like 20 years, even while I was doing the podcast, I was still hosting that show. And my kids all had to listen to me in the morning when they were driving. So they had to. And I think because they had to, they're like, I don't want to listen to this. Oh, come on. No. And I had like, you know, my show had all these talking animals and stuff. I'm like, I don't want the chipmunk again.

9:30Come on. So I feel you. Did you have any other questions, Clarkie? Yes. What is your favorite Greeking Out episode? Oh, that's a tough one. Wow. That's like picking a favorite kid for me, Clark. But I can do it. I think my favorite one might be one of the ones that hasn't come out yet because I'm really excited about these Jason and the Argonauts episodes that we're doing. but I really liked the story of Asclepius the healer. I really liked that story. I wrote that story and I loved it because he's a different kind of hero. Like, you know, the centaur, Chiron, that trained Achilles, trained Jason, trained Heracles, trained all these great warriors.

10:12He also trained Asclepius, but he realized right away, this guy's gift is actually healing people, not swinging a sword. And this guy has all sorts of adventures and does all these amazingly cool things. And he's a healer. He's actually helping sick people. And he gets so good at his job that he actually winds up bringing people back from the dead, which is kind of a no-no. Hades wasn't happy about that. Zeus wasn't happy about that. And you can guess what happens when Zeus isn't happy about things. So it's not exactly a happy ending for Asclepius, but still one of my favorite myths and stories.

10:46What is your favorite side type of mythology? like not Greek mythology, like the Roman mythologies or the Nigerian or Egyptian. I'm really getting into the Indonesian myths, the Filipino mythology. They have the craziest monsters, like the weirdest monsters. They're just bizarre and scary. And a lot of them are so scary, we can't even talk about them on the podcast. They're really freaky scary. And that says a lot because we talk about some scary stuff on our podcast sometimes. But I think that's what I'm most into. I also like the Korean mythology now, but we're doing a lot of stuff around the world in this book series that we're doing.

11:26We're actually going to focus on underworld stories and monsters from not just Greek mythology, but from all around the world and all of mythology, which is really cool. What is your favorite episode? Yeah. Probably the ancient dog names episode. That's a good one. Okay. Yeah, that's right. That did have a lot of ancient dog names. Are you a big fan of snakes? The Oracle of Wi-Fi would like to know. Kind of. I made a little reel, like a TikTok reel with a skeleton. And one of the shots, well, two of the shots, there were snakes going through the skeleton's like ribs. I think Clark thought it was very funny.

12:05I did too in the dog names episode. There's something strange about just like people have always had dogs and they've always given them delightful names. And then, you know, they grieved them when they died. They spoiled them. Just the myths are so preposterous. And as they say, the past is a foreign country. And yet they're just like us. Right, right. You find many ways in which even thousands of years ago, people are doing the same things we're still doing today. Yes. Yeah, that is very good. And there are a lot of great dogs. Cerberus, probably, you know, all three of him are a good boy. We're actually working on a story about Lelaps.

12:42I think I'm saying that right. is a hunting dog who can never fail to catch his prey. He's unstoppable. But one day he is given the task of catching a fox in a country called Tumesia. And this Tumesian fox was enchanted by the god Dionysus to be impossible to catch. So all of a sudden, you got a fox that can't not catch its prey chasing a fox that can't ever be caught. And they go round and round in circles until eventually Zeus says, this is a paradox. We got to stop this. So he turns them both into statues. Clark has been arguing with me about what kind of dog Odysseus had, what kind of dog was Argos.

13:27He would like it to be a Pomeranian. And I've said that's probably unlikely. I'm just going to say much. I think we should just leave it there because I'm not really sure Exactly. Some sort of wolf derivative at some point. I don't think it was going to be a Pomeranian, but I like the idea. But he did raise a good point, which is that it tends to be the smaller dogs that live so long. So you can't have a hunting dog that lives for 20 years. Right. That's a good point. That's a fair point. Yeah, that's right. Fair point. Fair point. And the small dogs do live forever. Clark, you got any other questions?

13:58My brother doesn't really like the podcast. Older brother or younger brother? Younger. I don't have an older brother. That's fine. Okay, fair, fair, fair. You know how there's like the ancient Egyptian episodes? Mm-hmm, yep. You know how there's like mythologies that are more like monsters and stuff? I thought more Egyptian monsters than gods and humans. It's interesting because you bring up a really interesting point because there's a theory. One of the historians had a theory that in one of the myths, Zeus is fighting a monster, a really bad monster who winds up taking all of his, like actually catching Zeus and taking his bones out.

14:42It's weird. And that part of that reason that happens is that all of the other Olympians flee, all of them except Athena. And they think that part of the reason why there are Egyptian gods that are so similar to Greek gods is because they went to Egypt and became those gods. The Greek civilization and the Egyptian civilization kind of came about around-ish at the same time. So I think there's some interesting crossover there that's fascinating. But yeah, I thought there would be more monsters in Egyptian mythology too. But it's really a lot of stories about, you know, the underworld has a lot of monsters.

15:19There's definitely a lot of monsters there. But they're not really, there's not like a chimera or a hydra or any of that kind of stuff that I found just yet. Okay, buddy, I'm going to finish. You go play, all right? Well, I have one more question. Oh, okay. Go for it. Bring it. Well, it's kind of like in the roaming around episode where they found Rome, I don't think that that guy who found Rome with his brother should have killed his brother just for mocking him. Yeah, Romulus and Remus didn't get along. Do you and your brother get along? Not really that much. Yeah, okay. So maybe you're not as extreme, but Romulus and Remus, they were brothers.

16:01But sometimes when we're telling a story and retelling a story, we can include all of the details. But I remember thinking the same thing. I was like, well, that's kind of extreme. But there was a lot of competition, I think, between the two of them that led up to that. So it's kind of a kind of a bummer. And eventually there were like two camps of people, the people that were all like Team Remus and Team Romulus. So I think that was that was part of it, too. But yeah, this these people are not role models, Clark. You don't always do what they do in the stories. Yeah. Don't kill your brother, please.

16:32Do not. Do not kill your brother. Do not kill your brother. And I know you guys weren't raised by wolves, but, you know, still don't go there. All right, buddy, you can close it. I'll call you after and you can listen to this when I'm done. All right. Thanks, Clark. It was great meeting you. He was delightful. Thank you so much. He's coming for your job. He's coming for your job. It's only a matter of time. Well, you know, there's something in it too. So obviously I write primarily about Roman history and Roman philosophy. So there's something I think delightful about my son becoming obsessed with Greek history.

17:01Like just, I can't perfectly be interested in what you're interested. I got to find my own way on it. That almost is the most timeless of the historical myths and stories right there. Yes. That speaks volumes, actually. Yeah. You're going to find your own thing. Yeah. Yeah, it is. It is interesting because I my daughter had the same reaction when she started working with me. She's been a writer for a long time. And then, you know, she had a couple of kids and sort of took time off. And when we the podcast was renewed, I had several other jobs at the time. I was, you know, spinning a few plates.

17:34And for the second season, I said, we need another writer. Yeah. And I need somebody who can write. And, you know, the podcast is very conversational. It's largely me just sort of talking and rephrasing things. And Jillian was worried that she wasn't going to be able to articulate that appropriately. And she said she sat down the computer. She was like, I don't know if I can do this. And then she started writing. She's like, oh, no, I can totally do this. Actually, I totally know how dad would say this. Never mind. And and because, you know, she could just sort of hear me talking in her head. But, you know, it's a similar it's a similar situation.

18:07It's fun when your children find something that they can sort of call their own in their own way. But yet you feel sort of connected to it. I think that's great. And we theoretically, we should feel connected to everything our kids do. But yeah, I don't always, you know. No, of course. What is it like working with your daughter? That must be wonderful. It must color the experience in an interesting way. It totally colors. That's a great way to put it. It colors the experience in a very interesting way. She is sort of, you know how you have a work wife. She's sort of like my daughter, you know what I mean?

18:37And, you know, it's just it's a weird relationship. But it's actually not as hard or awkward as I thought it was going to be. we're both very type a in terms of getting stuff done and deadlines and staying on top of things and the only problem is that we're like-minded enough that we both space on the same things ah like we'll both forget oh wait did that happen oh are we supposed to you know with that'll happen to to us but uh we both kind of over communicate a little bit and sometimes we'll both send the same email at the same time you know moments later you know that kind of a thing but it's a remarkable experience because it's nice.

19:16My daughter's a writer, writer, like I'm a storyteller. I'm sort of a talker writer. She's a writer, writer. She's she's a poet. She's fantastic at Jillian Stacia. If you ever want to follow her, she writes really great poetry and poems. And and she can also do technical writing. That was her background for a while. So this is a great muscle movement for her to get into a different area. And now she's been doing it for years. So She's, you know, she's an expert. She's got it nailed.

19:50Thanks to Toyota Trucks for sponsoring this episode. When I bought my ranch in 2015 out here in Bastro County, I drove my car about halfway down the dirt road that we live on, thought this isn't going to work, stopped, parked it, walked the rest of the way home, borrowed my wife's car, drove into Austin and bought a truck. What I bought was a Toyota Tacoma. And this truck wasn't just transportation getting me to and from my house. It unlocked a whole different style of living for us, not just on the ranch, but in our little Texas towns. There were places I could go now that I couldn't go before, especially out here in the piney forests, through the fields and on the unpaved roads like the one that I lived in.

20:35We got to go deep into the hill country's wild beauty. We've driven all the way out to East Texas. We've driven across the country. And by we, I mean not just my wife, but both my kids who I drove home from the hospital in that truck. Toyota trucks are built for those who understand that the best adventures happen when you're willing to veer off course. Because you never know when you'll end up on a Toyota adventure detour. And of course, this is stoicism too, because every detour, every obstacle is an opportunity. But it's helpful if you can handle the difficulty inherent in that. If you've got the resilience and the right companion to make it wherever the road takes you.

21:15Discover your uncharted territory. Learn more at toyota.com slash trucks slash adventure dash detours. We just took our kids to an outdoor performance at the Nutcracker. They had a snow cone and then they went insane in the car ride home. And one of the things I try to remind myself when that's happening is that I don't control my kids' behavior, especially when they're too far gone like that, but I do control how I respond, right? That's stoicism, but it's also what Dr. Becky talks about. Dr. Becky is a clinical psychologist and a best-selling author, and she founded Good Inside, which is there to give parents practical, actionable tools for handling those everyday challenges with confidence.

21:58My wife introduced me to Dr. Becky's books. I love them. I've recommended them a million times. I've had her on the podcast. And as it happens, Dr. Becky is hosting two live Q &A events for good inside members. I am one of them. She signed me up for it about a year and a half ago. I've loved it ever since. On December 1st, you can join Dr. Becky for her How Not to Raise Assholes event, which is about avoiding entitlement and raising kind, empathetic kids. And on December 15th, she's hosting her How Not to Lose It Over the Holidays event, which I'm sure we could all use. As I said, I'm a big fan of Dr.

22:35Becky. She's been a great influence for me as a parent and just as a human being. And Daily Stoic listeners can join for 15 % off with code STOIC15. You just got to head over to goodinside.com to catch the events.

22:56Well, it's been fascinating to watch Clark become obsessed with the podcast because I think this is the first thing where it's not like IP based in the sense that it's not like some sort of toy based or, you know, Hollywood based sort of world that you get sucked into. and watching him discover and become fascinated about a thing in which there is an endless amount you can learn, right? There's books you can read, there's places you can travel, there's these endless connections to, you know, history and things that are happening right now. It's been like, I think that's one of the most wonderful things that can happen to a person in life is when you go down a rabbit hole or a light switch gets turned on.

23:39Like, that's what you want for your kids is for them to find the stuff that gets them excited. Yeah, you want them to find passion. I mean, I want to say I hate social media, but I don't quite understand it as much as as younger folks do. So I'm not I don't quite get it, but I can see the way they are intrigued by so much content. There's sort of a buffet, an endless buffet of content on social media. And I'm hoping that they find one thing that sort of takes them away from social media and that they can kind of do a deep dive and find a passion for. And that's really what you, you know, I mean, we're in a world where, you know, we all, this is where this is life.

24:15You work, you do things. And even if it's not what you do to make money, you want to find something that brings you joy. And, and I think that's, and when a kid can find that, whatever it is, I I'm a hundred percent behind it. Yeah. I think we're, what we're trying to do is when he gets lit up by stuff is, okay, what is a real world connection to it? So it's like, hey, did you know there's a replica of the Parthenon in Nashville? Do we have to go see that now? You know, like if the internet is a way to endlessly surface an unlimited amount of things, that's great. It's going to be the way that you discover things.

24:50But then how do you take that bit of discovery or fascination back into the real world? That's exactly it. I mean, it's a tool in that way. It is the ultimate library slash encyclopedia that we all have in our hands. But, you know, information without context isn't knowledge. It's just data. We don't know what to do with that. And kids today can get all of the information they want, but they don't necessarily understand it. And the worst thing is when, I think, when they think they know something, but they don't. And this is a story, I'm probably speaking from personal experience, not necessarily with my own kids, but with myself.

25:24That's where I get into trouble. I don't get into trouble going, I don't know. I get into trouble when I think I know and I don't know. That's always the biggest problem. So I think we're in a sort of a golden age of data slash information, but I'm not sure we've managed to transcend it to knowledge just yet to really understand. And I think the missing ingredient in that, and this is just me spitballing, but I think the missing ingredient in that is understanding its relevance and its context to us, personal experience. You know what I mean? And I think that's where stories and all of that stuff really help contextualize the information and make it relevant to your living experience.

26:01Well, that's an important part of what the Greek myths were. And we maybe missed that. It is. So when we were talking with Clark a few minutes ago and he asked, well, why did, you know, why did Romulus kill his brother or whatever? That was the question that the myth was supposed to bring up. And when you when you look at like there's a few sort of lessons or lectures that survive or like that. We have a few sort of syllabuses from different like Greek and Roman schools. We understand how the tutors taught the children. And one of the ways they did it was that everyone would be familiar with the Odyssey.

26:37Everyone would be familiar with the founding of Rome, all these different stories. And then the students were encouraged to debate and question these literary events as if they happened. Like, why did Odysseus do X, Y, or Z? Should he have done X, Y, or Z? And so the idea that these myths were really these sort of jumping off points for these intellectual discussions, because we have to remember they didn't have history the same way that we did. You know, the first Greek historian, Herodotus, is remarkably late, you know, in this process and not super widespread. So they just didn't have like, hey, here's all the things that have happened.

27:17And we know they happened because we fact checked all of them. The myths were a way to just discuss these kind of moral dilemmas and the flaws and foibles of humans throughout history. Right. Yeah. I mean, it's so enjoyable to sort of sink your teeth into those myths in that way. When we all can, I mean, I think honestly, all storytelling is that, right? I mean, in some ways we're trying to kind of understand the world around us. But you're absolutely right in that the idea is they're parables in a way. And, you know, you see this in the Bible, right? I mean, that was the way, you know, in the Christian religion, that was the way Jesus taught people through parables.

27:59He told stories. And the Old Testament, you know, some religious scholars believe a lot of those were just parables. They're not saying, hey, yes, Methuselah lived to 900. We're trying to take the point of the message of the story. It's not necessarily what happened blow by blow, but what is the message? What is the meaning behind it? And I think that's, you know, we're all sort of trying to find the meaning behind our own human experience. So stories, I think, help us learn that and celebrate that and express that all at the same time. Yeah. And the idea that, yeah, you hear the Odyssey as a kid and it means something to you and then you watch it when you get older, you read about it, that it's this text that stays with you your whole life.

28:39And your understanding of the different dilemmas and the different choices should evolve as you get older. At first, you hear Odysseus saying, my name is nobody, and it's just kind of a funny play on words, and that's what strikes you. And then you realize, oh, had he kept up the fiction, he would have gotten away with the whole thing. It's this moment of hubris. And so as you get older, your understanding of the story, you notice different things from it. And so these were not just these texts that you're supposed to hear once, but you're supposed to engage with and re-engage with and take different things from them as you get older.

29:18I can remember as a student, you know, when we read The Odyssey, and I was, I think, in middle school or early high school, and there was the story about him, you know, going to the island with Cersei and he wanted to go home, right? He stays with Cersei and yet he falls in love with her. He stays with her. They have kids. You know what I mean? And it's like, wait, I thought you were in love with what you were just like, why? Just go home. Just go home. But as you get older, you see the complication of human emotions. You understand that within context. As a kid, you're like, dude, just go home.

29:50Just go, you know? Well, actually, it wasn't until I heard your episode about Scylla and Charbitis. This is where the saying between a rock and a hard place comes from but odysseus knows he has to navigate through this thing and he knows that what is it charbitis that he knows the monster is it skill which one's the monster skill is the monster charybdis is the toilet bowl whirlpool yeah that sucks everything down yeah he knows the monster which has four heads is going to claim four of his men and he knows that every other ship sinks because they try to avoid the monster And so he has this dilemma of leadership, which is effectively the trolley problem.

30:29I don't know if you know the trolley problem, which is one of the main problems in moral philosophy, which is, you know, a streetcar careening down some tracks and it's about to run over four people and you can pull a lever and change it and it will only kill one person. What should you do? Right. And it's this vexing dilemma because if you do nothing, four people will die, but it won't be your problem. You won't have any moral responsibilities, but if you change it, you are in fact killing by your hand one person. So it wasn't until I re-heard the story as you were telling it in the podcast that I go, oh, wait, Odysseus has to make this choice where he has to lead four men unwittingly to their deaths or by deception lead them to their death or the whole crew will die.

31:16Exactly. And that this is leadership is having to make these incredibly painful decisions in which some people will lose something. And that is the awfulness of being in a position of responsibility. Exactly. And, you know, he told his crew, just keep rowing. Just no matter what happens, keep rowing. He knew what was going to happen. He just didn't have a choice. And it was an awful, you know, Sophie's Choice type of moment for Odysseus. And I think all of us, I mean, hopefully not very many of us, but all of us have to make awkward or hard choices in life. These no win scenarios, unless you're Captain Kirk and you got out of the Kobayashi Maru.

31:57But I'm not going there. We're not going into Star Trek. I won't. But still, there are moral lessons in all of this. That particular point actually was brought up to us when we were writing the script. We have, you know, consultants, professors that look over, classics professors that look over our scripts. And the late Diane Klein was a fantastic professor. And she just totally got the tone we were going for. And she kind of knew when to say, this is fine. You're not really representing this correctly. But she also had some really great suggestions and ads. And I remember her pointing that out.

32:33She's like, this is a really hard thing for Odysseus. He has to pick her. He doesn't have a choice because he knows if they go to the whirlpool, they all die. And he has no choice. So rather than telling his men, hey, we're going to face this monster or rather than stopping to try to fight the monster, which a lot of people did. He's like, nope, we're going to go through and we're going to roll the dice and we know we will probably lose men. And that's a really, really hard decision to make. There's something I do like about the Greek myths in that they don't baby anyone. So, you know, obviously, I love all the stuff that's for kids and we've done all that with our kids.

33:07But there is something about this, you know, magical pizza party book or whatever they're reading that is fun, but there isn't much weight to it ultimately in terms of the lesson that it is teaching. And there is something about there's I think there's a reason they develop these stories. And there's a reason these stories have survived for thousands of years is that they're they're there to teach the things that we do need to learn. If you're trying to groom someone for leadership, this is the kind of thing they need to be thinking about from the beginning. Yes, exactly. As your Kennedy reference before points out very clearly.

33:43It's always a joy for me because I think when we tell these stories, we're very mindful of the graphic nature of some of the content. We have to put a disclaimer on the top of the show. So, you know, and if it wasn't for cutting heads off and rape, the Greeks probably would have had nothing to talk about. It's always just part of everything that they do, especially with Zeus. But I also think that there's kind of an underlying sadness to most of these stories. You know, there are moments of joy, but there aren't a whole lot of happy endings. And we try as storytellers to find those moments of joy.

34:21But we also, as we tell the stories, try to keep the listener in remembering that this is a story. And I think that's where the Oracle of Wi-Fi really helps, because we can break up the narrative, occasionally step back from the fourth wall. And when the kids are wrapped up in a story, they're like, oh, yeah, that's right. This is just a story. OK, so if they get too involved in the intensity, we can pull it back. And it gives them the opportunity to experience the story sort of as you're engrossed in it, as it's happening. but also as, oh, yeah, I'm just listening to a story. And they can look at it with a little bit more perspective and distance.

34:55And that's what we're hoping kids take away from it. Well, a lot of these stories are tragedies, right? And that's a genre that certainly we don't make for children much anymore. But it's also just a genre that is probably less popular. The idea of these sort of tragic figures with these tragic plots. The purpose of, like, Odysseus isn't necessarily a hero. He's this flawed, he's this guy there to teach us a bunch of lessons. And the other one I thought was so striking, it wasn't until I read Emily Wilson's new translation of the Odyssey that I, and I read it a few years ago, I made it all the way to the end, right?

35:29Which you sort of don't do as a kid. And it wasn't, he gets home. And then what was so striking to me is that he gets ready to leave again, right? It's not like he says, I'm going to spend the rest of my, I'm never leaving from this this oasis ever again. And you go, oh, Odysseus is a tragic figure. It begins with him fighting in a war that he didn't believe in, spending 20 years to get home. And then he's wandering again. He is, he's not someone you would want to be. Right. And it started, the sad things, he didn't even want to go to the war. And he was trying to just, he was trying to trick him and said, oh no, I can't, I'm not fit for leadership.

36:10It is a fascinating arc for that particular character, how he went from point A to point B and how different they are. And at the end, there is sort of an unsettled feeling for him that I would imagine, you know, a lot of people feel if you're, you know, if, if you were deployed, if you're in the military and you were deployed and you come home and suddenly you have to figure out what to make for dinner. And you spent the last 18 months trying to figure out how you're going to keep these people alive. That's a big mental switch. You know what I mean? And I think it has a profound effect on human beings.

36:42And it's something that is not necessarily new. And I think we can take comfort in that, you know, when you hear these stories. Well, that's, isn't that the plot of The Hurt Locker, that Oscar winning movie a few years ago where he gets back and he's like, oh, he's addicted to the rush of the thing that could so easily kill him. Yeah, I think that was the plot of The Hurt Locker. I was hoping you would notice that I just totally paraphrased a movie. No, no, I was just fascinated by that. And that the people that are, I think that's the other part we don't talk about, because today, you know, people like you and I as content creators or writers or artists, you know, we're not usually also soldiers or power brokers the way Seneca was, you know, like, I think it's Aeschylus.

37:25Aeschylus is like a hero of the Persian wars. So like these artists were much more multifaceted and their lives had been darker and they had seen more of humanity than maybe your average playwright in 2024. Yeah, well, I mean, you know, life back then was a lot harder, you know, if nothing else. But I just, you know, it's unique. I'm trying not, that is probably the hardest balance we have to strike is to find the joy in these stories. We don't want to put a happy ending or a bow on things that didn't have them. But at the same time, we want to try to find the enrichment experience for the listener and the sort of the takeaway.

38:02So that's something that we work hard on in the books in particular, because in print, I think you go back to it over and over again. But it's one of those things. It's just, you know, it's a, I think finding the joy in the moment of discovering the story, even when it ends and it's kind of sad, you're like, oh, well, that's okay. You know, I get it. I get the story. It reminds me of Lemony Snicket's Series of Unfortunate Events. I love those kids' books because, yeah, it's tongue in cheek, but it's sad. They're tragic. They're not supposed, he keeps telling you constantly, These are not happy books.

38:37This is not happy children. You know, talks about the happy little elf. If you want the happy little elf, go there. This is not it, you know. But I love the fact that that brings the idea that I don't want to say suffering per se, but I can't come up with a better word right now. That suffering is a legitimate life experience that is supposed to happen to us. We're not supposed to get out of this thing without any scars. You know what I mean? And that's what makes us who we are. We learn from our mistakes. And if mistakes never happen to us, we've probably never been alive. So where does the idea for the show come from?

39:12Well, the podcast was originally the brainchild of a couple of marketing folks at National Geographic Kids. is Becky Baines, who is supremely talented, and Kate Hale were working with us at SiriusXM when I was at SiriusXM on the Weird But True radio show. They actually hosted the show for the Weird But True books. And they had a new book series coming out called Zeus the Mighty, which is a really adorable book series written by Crispin Boyer, fantastic book series. And in that book series, it takes place in a pet shop in Olympia, Georgia, where all of the animals think they are the Greek gods because the owner of the pet shop listens to a podcast called Greeking Out.

39:59So the marketing folks like, you know, we should actually make the podcast to help push the book. So it went back and forth, this, you know, serious exam and back and forth. And eventually we wound up doing it on our own. And that's how the first season of Greeking Out came to be as sort of a push for that book series. But it was instantly popular and did better than they thought. So we did a second season and then a third and then a fourth. And the rest is history. And now it's funny because the podcast that was spawned from a book series now actually has its own book series. So, you know, it's kind of a full circle moment for us.

40:36And I can't imagine then that you were a huge student of the Greek and ancient myths then. This must have been sort of a process of discovery for you as you did it. Yeah, it was sort of. I mean, I was, you know, a nerd before D &D nerds were cool, you know, back before that was a thing. So, you know, we actually rolled dice and, you know, had to make up our own stories and had screens and charts and all that stuff. And as a kid and even as an adult, I was always fascinated with Greek mythology. Edith Hamilton's book. Yes. The Greek way? Yeah. That was one of the first books that I had read and her mythology companion.

41:12I read that, those, the mythology stories way sooner than I probably should have. I was much younger, but I always thought those stories were incredibly cool. So I had a sort of a proclivity for Greek mythology. But when we got into it, what I really loved about it, and as a theater student who had gone, you know, year old Eurystheus and Eschilas and all that stuff, I was always fascinated with the idea of Greek storytelling. I love that. When I was in high school, I took a Greek culture class. It was one of my favorite classes. And I remember loving the stories of the Iliad and the Odyssey and the Apple that launched a thousand ships and all that stuff.

41:51So it played right into my personal interests as well as a professional opportunity. You know, that book, The Greek Way, Robert F. Kennedy, when he's running for president, his wife, I think, somebody gives him a copy of that book and it blows his mind. He hadn't been familiar with the Greek myths. And so when Martin Luther King Jr. is shot, he has to give this impromptu speech in Indianapolis. The crowd is just hearing the news at the same time he's hearing the news. And it's on the verge of this riot. And he gets up there and he gives this famous speech where he quotes Aeschylus from memory, which he had not read himself.

42:37He had gotten from The Greenway by Edith Hamilton. And basically there are riots all over the country that night, but not in inner city Indianapolis, because in this moment he draws on this line from Aeschylus about how our suffering teaches us and this is how we discover truth. And there's just something so beautiful about this terrible moment of history drawing on this multi-century old bit of wisdom. And I just love this process of discovering and rediscovering these ideas over and over again. Absolutely. I mean, that's what's beautiful about these stories because now they're sort of archetypes, right?

43:18You know, we always say that there was Hades before there was Darth Vader, and we try to make those parallels for kids who aren't as familiar with Greek mythology. But the archetypes that are created and and in fact, the stories themselves are transcendent, not just because they're old and other things have been based upon them, but because they are. Universal in their truth in a lot of ways, I mean, ultimately, Greek mythology and storytelling. And I think all mythology, as we learn more and more about myths and cultures from around the world, that's something that we do a lot on Greek on Greek out.

43:55Now we do a lot of field trips where we do, you know, myths from around the world. But what makes them so universal appealing, I think, is this universal connectedness to these ideas and these experiences that, you know, are at the basis of humanity. I mean, yeah, these Greeks were trying to figure out, okay, why is that glowing orb there every morning? Okay, that's Helios driving the chariot of the sun across. Okay, that's what we're going to call that. But there's also trying to explain the human experience, which is not exactly a pleasant thing when you're living in ancient times. It's hard.

44:32Yeah, to sort of teach the lessons, the hard-won lessons of human experience, and to teach them in a way that makes them applicable or interesting to children and to adults. And cross-culturally is the idea that these Greek myths were this kind of collective project that people were adding to and tweaking and discovering and rediscovering. That's kind of not how we think about it. I think we think about them as like, these are the myths, this is the story. But actually for like two or 3000 years, people were adding to them, retelling them and each kind of generation was discovering them in a new way.

45:16Yes, exactly. I mean, that's, they were told for generations, thousands of years before anybody wrote them down. You know, it's just like the world's longest game of telephone. You know, when you're a kid, it changes a little bit. The message, you know, if you whisper the thing and everybody's here, by the time it gets back around the circle, it's a different story. And I think that happens a lot. And it gives us the opportunity as people to really find meaning in our own situation from a story. And that's what makes it, you know, a collective experience. That's what jazzes me about it, is the storytelling idea, the idea that people from the griots in Africa to, you know, you know, the ancient Greek storytellers in the amphitheaters.

46:00This idea that you can stand up and talk about a personal experience and make it relevant to everybody is really cool. And I think using Olympians and gods and goddesses helps that for ancient cultures as well.

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46:55Well, and there's also this thing, this is where your work intersects with mine. So Seneca is one of the Stoic philosophers who ends up being a very famous playwright in Roman times. But he has this day job. His day job is he works for Nero, one of the worst emperors of all time. And he can't talk about it. He can't talk about this horrible job and this horrible man that he works for or he'll lose his head. So he writes these incredibly dark Greek plays where he takes, you know, Theistes or he takes Hercules or he takes Medea. He takes these figures from history and he's clearly talking about his job.

47:33Right. His experience. Right. Exactly. But he can't be like, here's what Nero did. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He has to show the depravity in these characters. And so I like also the idea that we have these kind of Marvel Universe characters. And then when somebody else needs to make a statement about politics or about human nature, they can kind of pick up these characters and arrange them in a way that they want or or exaggerate certain traits or deemphasize certain traits to make whatever point they wanted to make of the moment. Today, his plays seem like they're 2000 years old to us. But in the moment, they would have been cutting edge theater.

48:11Yeah, exactly. And also, I mean, I think Nero was so fascinated with Greek culture. Like he wanted to win the Olympics. He did all that stuff. So I think, you know, it was a smart play by Seneca to actually maybe Nero can pick up something. Maybe he can see the parallels in these plays that I'm writing. Boss, anybody? Yes. That's I guess that's the perfect one of the earliest examples of managing up, actually. Yes. In history. Well, look, and then 1500 years later, Shakespeare is doing the exact same thing. I guess I was reading Shakespeare makes one overt political contemporary reference in all of his plays, and he was nearly thrown in prison for it.

48:51So he's sort of never again, I'm going to write about Julius Caesar, and I'm going to write about Hamlet, and I'm going to write about, you know, some island off the coast of the New World. He learns this very same lesson, which is you can't talk about the moment in time that you're in, at least not directly. You've got to use these sort of stock characters and archetypes as a way to make your contemporary points. Yeah, yeah, that's fascinating. But it is an interesting way in which all of this kind of storytelling ideology continues to transcend into the world today. And people are still doing this today.

49:27I mean, you know, you've got writers, you know, constantly. I mean, I think in a way, even Stephen King, you know, I mean, still sort of trying, still telling a story, but also telling a story that is relevant to the reader today and to himself. I think that's really also the truth is that I think as a storyteller and a writer, you're also sort of writing your own truth. You know what I mean? You're writing your own experience. And I think when you truly try to color that, censor that, for lack of a better term, you wind up trying to be something that you maybe aren't. There is this, I think, when you first hear the myths and they're so preposterous and obviously didn't happen, there's this part of you that wonders, you know, did they believe it?

50:11I think first you just assume this is what they believed in the ancient world. But then when you read like the actual history and you see some of their works of moral philosophy, their discoveries, their works of science, etc., you go, there's no way they believed these things, right? They're so smart. I'm curious when you sort of do these deep dives in the myths, what do you take from that? What is your understanding of the relationship between the audience and the myth? I think that the kids, I think you sort of said it already. I think they understand that the Greeks back then, I think, understood the context of what they were hearing.

50:50I think they needed to put a name to something, like I said before about the sun being Helios. I think they just sort of needed a name. And I think sometimes when bad things happen, it's helpful to say, oh, Zeus must be furious with us. We've done something wrong. It helps make the things in life that don't seem to make sense make sense. But I also think the Greeks and that culture was very tied into their world, their literal environment, their weather, their farming, the crops, everything was tied together. So I feel like, and I don't want to get too esoteric, but there was a spiritual quality to these stories because I think it helped them understand on a non-literal level that sometimes there's things that you cannot control.

51:38And by giving it colorful characters and characterizations, I think it made that more palatable and that experience a little bit more justifiable. That's what I suspect. I don't have any background in history to really to go there. You would probably know that better than I. But that's that's the gut feeling that I have. And I think today, kids listening, I want them to experience that in a similar way. Well, I just think it's interesting because, yeah, on the one hand, they believe in these omens and they gave these sacrifices and they told these stories. And then there's a story we have about Pericles.

52:09So this is, you know, fourth century, fifth century B.C. And he's leading this convoy of ships. And all of a sudden there's an eclipse. And so the men are terrified of this eclipse. And he goes, guys, wait a second. And he takes his cloak and he throws it over a man's head, covering him in darkness. And he says, are you afraid now? And the guy goes, no, obviously not. And he goes, well, what does it matter? Darkness is darkness. It doesn't matter what caused it, right? Or there's another story about Pericles where there's this thunder and everyone's scared of the thunder. And he grabs these two rocks and he bashes them together.

52:47And he says, this is what's happening. You know, the clouds are bashing together and making the thunder, which is a pretty close, pretty close to explaining what on a scientific level is actually happening. So it's fascinating that simultaneously they have these, you know, preposterous myths. And then they also have this kind of logical understanding of the universe. And the duality of that, I think, is so it's so interesting i've i personally i think they were aware that these were all silly stories just meant to tell more lessons as opposed to yeah there's a guy racing in a chariot every morning to take the sun up yeah yeah i mean i think that could very well be the case i think sometimes especially you know in in athens and around the time of pericles uh when that in the golden age of athens i think these people were far more enlightened maybe others or less so.

53:39But I think the reasons these stories have been maintained and have continued is because of the lessons that they contain and the cultural identity that folks were able to get and derive from that. What, how fascinating it must have been for the Greeks and the Romans to show up in Egypt and go, oh, wait, they have totally different myths. I know. I love that idea that they're like, wait, what? You call him what? No, no, no, no. We have a different name for that. Yeah. I love that idea, too. Me, too. And then and then the Romans to just be like, oh, no, no, we're not calling it, you know, Zeus.

54:15We're going to call him Jupiter or whatever. Like, we're just going to take the things and give them different names. Yeah, exactly. We're going to go ahead. And I believe there's a theory. And I think and this is just based on Internet research. So forgive me if I'm just quoting the Internet. But when we were doing a lot of our Norse mythology, the similarities between the Norse gods and the Greek gods and the Roman gods are pretty strong. And there is a theory that the Norse mythology was influenced by the Greeks and the Norse and they had similar stories. I don't know. They're very different myths and there's a very different vibe to the Norse myths.

54:53The gods were not necessarily gods that controlled anything. They were just sort of supernatural beings that lived around that did stuff. I also think the practical problems of it are so interesting. I remember I was visiting a quincum, which is this Roman camp outside Budapest, and they have a statue of the emperor. And the Roman emperor was, there were cults to the Roman emperor where you would worship the emperor as this sort of god. You would sacrifice, et cetera. But the statue doesn't have a head. And I'm sort of reading about it. And basically what they said is, well, look, the emperor, it's very hard to carve a large statue out of stone.

55:30And so they made a statue of the emperor's body, and then they would just do a new head every time there was a new emperor. A new emperor, yeah, that's great. That's awesome. There was a year of, I think, four emperors, right? I'm just imagining this priest or this person just getting frustrated. I can't keep doing these new statues. Let's just have one statue and we'll swap out the head. It's a genius idea, actually. Yeah. Problem solving at its finest. Oh, man. As you think about these myths, I was curious. That's one of the interesting things when you do study Greek myths and all these cultural myths, any kind of religious studies, is then it changes your relationship to the myths that you grew up in or whatever religious tradition you were born in.

56:20And you go, wait, some of these sound familiar. Or if theirs was all made up and we don't believe in that anymore, why am I supposed to believe in this? How am I supposed to trust all of this? How has it changed your understanding with like myths and things that you grew up learning? I think, yeah, that's a great question. I mean, I started thinking about this when we were doing Gilgamesh because there's a flood in Gilgamesh that, you know, the gods send a flood. And it sounds awful like Noah's Ark. Um, so, you know, you have to wonder, well, maybe they just found one of those stone tablets, read that and were like, we should put this in the Bible.

56:57This is a good one. Um, you know, I don't, I'm not sure how all of it went down, but I feel very connected to the same idea. The parable idea is what struck me immediately. I was always struck by that because I, I remember that, you know, the difference between the Old Testament and the New Testament. I was raised Catholic. So yeah, me too. Yeah. So that's, that's kind of what I go, this Old Testament, New Testament. And I always thought that that was the whole point. That's why Jesus would tell parables. He used stories. He explained things. Yeah, he did the Sermon on the Mount saying, OK, poor people are good.

57:32Here's the deal. And I thought, I think in many ways, when you look at the religious, across all religions, the iconic humans that lived at that time that had a divine connection, whether it's Buddha or Gandhi or what have you. but they all sort of had the same thing, which is this idea that their life was a parable. Jesus himself, the whole point, if you're really Christian is God getting like, look, you people are not getting it, okay? Here's the deal. I'm gonna send this guy down. You just do what he did. Just act like him and we'll be good. And that sort of brought all of that home for me.

58:08But when I rediscover these old myths, these old stories, I actually think it kind of puts me more in touch with things like stories from the Bible and stories from the New Testament because they are exactly that. They are meant to be stories. You're there to get the meaning behind them, right? You're there to get the vibe. You're there to get the point. You don't want to get too mired in the details or you miss the point. And I know that's very true, you know, the stories of, you know, Abraham and Isaac as well. No, it's just, it's weird, right? Because it's like, well, obviously I don't believe that Zeus impregnated this tree and then ba-da-ba-da-ba.

58:43And most people would say that. And then they're like, but of course, there was this virgin birth, and then he was crucified, and then he rose from the dead after three days. My myth is true. But what is so fascinating is, we were talking about Seneca earlier. One of our main sources about the life of Seneca is the Roman historian Tacitus, who also talks about this guy named Christus, who is crucified in Judea. And so it's this fascinating thing where, okay, we're like, after a certain point, all the myths aren't true. But then after this point, they are true. And then you go, but we have some historical basis for this one.

59:27He really did was a person. And then you're like, well, let me tell you, they discovered Troy. Like, Troy's a real place. Troy is actually real, right? Yeah, yeah. Suddenly you're like, wait, so there's some truth here. But I think, and you can fact check me on this later. I remember learning about Benjamin Franklin sending letters to, I think, like the president of Harvard University. They had a correspondence relationships. And one of the letters was about the divinity of Christ. I think Benjamin Franklin was like, I don't think it matters. I think you're missing the point. Whether or not he was the actual son of God isn't the point.

1:00:03And I think people get caught up in – I mean, I don't want to offend anybody's religious sensibilities. Again, I was raised Catholic, you know, and I buy into it. I still, my sister works at a really great church. It's one of those cool mega churches and they have like a giant thing at Christmas. But the church is in an amphitheater. And I'm like, if there's not stained glass, I don't feel like I'm in church. You know, that's just hard. That's, you know, that's how we were raised as kids. You follow the traditions and your beliefs follow the traditions in some ways because they are traditions, not necessarily because they are true.

1:00:36And I'm making air quotes there because I think the tradition, your belief is more important than the actual facts. And I think that's part of what all of these religions say. You have to believe before you actually know the facts. So I think in their hearts, people really want to believe in something. There's this fascinating clash between the Stoics and the Christians in Marcus Aurelius' time. And I was struck by, like, we have some of the trial transcripts. So Marcus Aurelius' philosophy teacher is this guy named Junius Rusticus. And he becomes this powerful administrator in Rome. I mean, Seneca's brother is in the Bible.

1:01:14That's how interconnected these things are. Wow. But he lets St. Paul go when he gets arrested by the authorities. But anyway, we have some of the trial transcripts of Marcus Aurelius' philosophy teacher and the persecution or the trial of who becomes Justin Martyr. And there's this conflict that Justin Martyr won't worship the Roman gods. He's saying that God is the only true God. And there's this conflict. And as I kind of read behind the lines, I get this sense of Rusticus going, look, we all know these gods aren't real either. But this is what we do here. Like, this is, you know, he's like, this is the thing.

1:01:55This is how it works. And you're saying something different. And that's a problem. Exactly. It gave me a sense of the myths where, yeah, I don't think the Romans thought that all this stuff was happening, but they did believe in the tradition. And as you said, like, no, no, no, church is a big stone building with stained glass. That's church. Don't try to change that. Exactly. There's just this kind of, hey, these are the myths I grew up hearing. This is the tradition. This is how it works. And then we kind of just get comfortable with that. And it means something to us, even if we know it doesn't mean anything.

1:02:29Right. Well, I think that's it. It's a vehicle for our spirituality. And we're going way deeper than than this creaking out book. But but in a way it is right. That's the whole idea. We look for ways to connect. And and it's hard to just wake up in the morning, have a cup of coffee and feel connected. You got to find some ways. People meditate. They do deep breathing. You go to the nature. I'm always shocked at how much I need to look at water. Like I need to look at the ocean. There's something magical about water. Yeah, and we go to the beach all the time, the ocean all the time here on the Eastern shore.

1:03:02And every morning there's people. They just go out and they all do the same thing. They're all standing by themselves or maybe in a couple and they're just watching the sunrise. What is this that attracts it to us? But we all need that feeling of connected. I think that offers a connection for us. And I think the stories of religions can help us do that as well. Yeah, so we are watching the sunrise or the sunset you don't have to be thinking about Helios, but you are saying there's something magical about this. And that's the timelessness of it. Exactly. You understand that there's something bigger than you.

1:03:36Looking at the ocean, you're like, wow, I feel small and yet connected at the same time. I've never been to the Grand Canyon, but I want to go to the Grand Canyon because there's this movie in the 80s called Grand Canyon. And the movie wasn't about the Grand Canyon at all. The film's kind of cheesy, but it's one of my favorite things about the film is at the very end of the film, they just wind up at the Grand Canyon. And they all realize that all of the crap that they'd been through and all these interconnected stories that brought them together was nothing compared to how big the rest of life in the world is.

1:04:05It's like, wow, that's right. I remember that we are a smaller part of a bigger thing. I think there's a great comfort in that. Also, you know, it's a weird, weird feeling insignificant and yet significant at the same time. But I think there's a comfort in that. Well, it's also weird just to think that, yeah, the idea of a national park is kind of a recent invention like america invented the national parks and just the idea that like no no this is like a special obviously the people who are here before us the other sorts of great myths they had been preserving those things as kind of national parks or uh as sacred spaces for for thousands of years but the idea of like oh no no we're going to expand the definition of what a sacred space is or sacred place is right to protect this we're not going to allow other humans to screw it up.

1:04:50That we only invented that like 200 years ago is pretty nuts. Or actually, as after the Civil War, basically, it's pretty insane. It is. It's very insane. And you didn't have to, you don't necessarily have to have the faces of four presidents carved in the side of a mountain to do that. The mountain itself was pretty impressive. Exactly. Before the faces got there. Yeah. I always love people who use the term natural wonder to describe Mount Rushmore. I always find that amusing. I'm like, oh yeah, so these rocks just happen to grow into the faces of four guys who would become president. That's convenient.

1:05:19Yeah. But no, it's not a natural wonder. My last question for you. I'm just curious, what do you think of the medium of podcasts? It's interesting to me that in some ways it's a continuation of the oral tradition we're talking about, but it's also a new thing. Like the idea of being able to do what you do with creaking out. Like when I was a kid, that wasn't a thing I could have taken advantage of. Right. Yeah. I think one of the things I love about doing this as a podcast, and I think the podcast is the engine that drives all of it. Yes, Greeking Out could be a thing. It could be a book series.

1:05:53There's a lot of these stories can be, you know, they could be video. There's all sorts of ways to experience it. But for Greeking Out specifically, I think it works because of the nature of radio where the in old school radio, we used to say the DJ is talking to one listener. It's me to you. television is hello America radio is me and you I'm just talking to you but podcasting takes that I think to a different level because especially for kids and the podcast that we do greeking out it is just one voice telling a story with some sound effects and some music to enhance that but it is just that in a world where kids are inundated by tablets and videos and constant barrage of media to be able to put headphones in and color or sit in the back of the car or go somewhere and hear this story.

1:06:43It is a, I think it's almost like a brain break from the constant onslaught of other media and podcasts offer that to people. I think people like the convenience and don't get me wrong. They are convenient. You can put your headphones in and you know, you can listen to a podcast and swim, uh, which my wife does a lot, stuff like that. You can do this and it's awesome, but it also gives you an opportunity to just listen. And for kids, that I think triggers their imagination in a different way. And so we like that and we enjoy it. I think podcasting in general is taking off for the same reasons that we find it challenging as a business, which is there's so many different things.

1:07:20I think that's what makes podcasting so good is that you can find a podcast based on something that you're just sort of interested in, or you can find a podcast based on something that you're passionate about or you can just scroll through and say, oh, true crime. I'd like to hear about this, you know, that kind of stuff. There's so much to it. And it allows people to experience a story, a conversation, something as it goes. And, you know, it's different for different people, obviously. But I think that's also what makes it challenging. Watching my son, you know, listen to a couple hours of the podcast on our flight this weekend.

1:07:55On some level, why is it different? Like, why do I think it's better than watching YouTube videos? But somehow it is. Do you know what I mean? Like, why am I making a distinction between like, oh, no, the problem is that you're using your eyes for one and only your ears for another. But there is something that struck me about it as being much more educational. And I think the podcast is very educational and wonderful. But there was some part of me that I was like, oh, no, this is great. He's just sitting there imagining this whole world, listening, being part of this ancient tradition. I think it's wonderful.

1:08:31And then the other part that struck me was like, there's this phase in your life as a kid. And then if you're someone who has learning layers or whatever, maybe it continues into adulthood where his level of comprehension and his reading ability are not even close to at parity. Yeah, yeah. So he can understand. Man, even me, I can't sit down and read, you know, Aeschylus without a lot of help, right? I got to like watch videos and try to ask questions. I got to look up words, but I could watch Aeschylus or I could have you explain a play from Euripides and understand it. And so there is something about, I think, listening to great podcasts where you're kind of punching above your weight.

1:09:12You are getting access to wisdom that you yourself probably could not learn quite so easily. Right. That's a great way to phrase it. And I totally agree. I think it's, you know, I love the fact that we get a chance to actually just sort of have the conversations. I don't our goal is not to be educational. There isn't a specific curriculum at Greek Young, but we have these stories and we want to share them and we want kids to be inspired to sort of share their own stories in the same way. You know, when we were kids, that's the old Gen X gripe. We were bored. Back in my day, my toy was a stick.

1:09:48You know, I mean, that kind of stuff. My parents locked me out and said, don't come back till sunset, that kind of stuff. And so we had to find our own fun. I don't necessarily think that was great. I'm going to be straightforward on that. I'm not sure that was the way it should have been done. That's just the way it was. But the ability for kids to have their imagination and their own inner voice, their own inner narrative encouraged and stimulated is is something that we strive for all the time and i think in all of the media for kids it should be there and plus you handle all the pronunciations which i am uniquely terrible at i don't know how you manage to get these that is this i'm gonna say two words national and geographic they are the perfect partner for this because they have the right kind of resources and the right kind of weight when national geographic sends an email to a college professional, like, oh, this is National Geographic.

1:10:40If it was me going, I produce a podcast about Greek mythology, I don't know that they would get back to you as quickly. But we get the best experts and the people that can help us. And the pronunciation, I just have to give a huge shout out to our producer, Emily Everhart, who she goes through this. She fortunately is Greek, but she has, you know, everything from her grandma to experts. And they record the pronunciations on a drive. And I have to listen to them several times. And I still get them wrong. On my own books, when I do the audio books, I'm like, I don't know how to, I've never even heard this word before.

1:11:12I'm going to butcher this name. That's my only hope with AI is that it can help us with some of these things. Exactly. You know what? Let's have AI Ryan do this Latin phrase so he doesn't embarrass himself. That's a great use of AI. Also instant replay in sports, but we can have another conversation about that. I'm trying to think of actual things that I would support the use of AI. But yeah, I'm 100 % with you on that. I think it's really, the pronunciations are tough. I learned, for example, that Cersei is actually pronounced Kirky. Our professor was like, well, most people say Kirky, but we're gonna let you say Cersei because I don't think anybody, like grownups will understand who you're talking about when you say Cersei, unless they're Game of Thrones fans and they get thrown off.

1:11:52No, I was told the same thing. I think it's supposed to be Kikoro and you go, oh, wait. So that's another layer on the tradition, which is it's not, who it was to them. It's the evolution of this person through Western culture. To me, you mentioned Gilgamesh earlier. What's so fascinating about Gilgamesh is Gilgamesh and the Odyssey, let's say they're two equal foundational epics, but Gilgamesh was only discovered in the 1800s. Right. Exactly. So what we don't have is 2 ,000 years of paintings and poems and adaptations and plays and then movies. We don't have all of the art built on top of the art.

1:12:38So it doesn't have the same resonance. So it's not actually that the Odyssey is so great. It's that people believed it was great for 2000 years. And now it's like there's a nostalgia or a hominess to it that just feels familiar because you've known about the Odyssey from before you knew about the Odyssey. Right, exactly. It's part of the fabric of who we are. And, you know, the Mesopotamians wrote on stone tablets. Thankfully, they did because they lasted a lot longer. But yeah, I mean, if they'd used papyrus, we might never know about Gilgay. Yes. But it's always intriguing to me, too, to find the similarities in these themes, that mythopolic impulse of these stories and these kind of connectedness of how similar they are.

1:13:22It's amazing to me. So anyway, yes, absolutely 100 percent behind the idea that stories and storytelling is a strong foundational experience. And yeah, the Greeks had a lot more time for their internal PR. That's exactly right. Well, this was amazing. Thank you so much. Yeah, this was fun. I will go back to listening to the podcast with my son, which I'm sure he's going to want to do on the drive home today. So there'll be some more Kenny Curtis in our car. You guys are the best. Thank you. I appreciate everything. And I think the podcast is awesome. And if anyone's a parent, definitely listen.

1:13:54And I think we're going to Greece this summer to chase down some of these leads that you've gotten our family excited about. I have never been. And I can't wait to go. You got to go. I've got to go. You got to do it live from the Acropolis. list. We would like, but you know what? I'll settle for that, uh, Parthenon and, uh, in, uh, Nashville. We were talking to those people about it. It would be fun to do some live stuff. And I think we are going to do more live shows of it. Cause it's a ton of fun to, to, to deal with the audience and the kids get into it. It's really fun. Come do them at one at my bookstore.

1:14:24If you're ever in Austin, Texas. Oh yeah. Yeah. That's another place I've never been that I have to get to. So Austin, then Greece. Okay. I'm making a list right now. I'm on it. Sounds good. Well, thank you for everything. I really appreciate it. Ryan, it was a pleasure. Thanks so much for your time.

1:14:43Thanks so much for listening. If you could rate this podcast and leave a review on iTunes, that would mean so much to us and it would really help the show. We appreciate it. I'll see you next episode.

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