How Stoic Thinking Built a Super Bowl Team | Les Snead (Los Angeles Rams GM)

0:00I'm recording this on a Monday, and Monday is our grocery store day in our family. I usually pick my kids up from school and we go over to Whole Foods, get all our groceries for the week. Although here very shortly, we're going to go over there to get our Thanksgiving turkey because they've got a bunch of great options. Turkeys start at$1.49 a pound if you have Prime with organic birds at$2.99 a pound. And they only carry no antibiotic ever turkeys that will bring quality to your table at a great price. Whole Foods has great everyday prices on all your Thanksgiving essentials, whether you celebrate with a massive family or just a few close friends.

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2:47Welcome to the Daily Stoic Podcast, where each weekday we bring you a meditation inspired by the ancient Stoics, a short passage of ancient wisdom designed to help you find strength and insight here in everyday life. And on Wednesdays, we talk to some of our fellow students of ancient philosophy, well-known and obscure, fascinating and powerful. With them, we discuss the strategies and habits that have helped them become who they are and also to find peace and wisdom in their lives.

3:33Hey, it's Ryan. Welcome to another episode of The Daily Steal. podcast. I love football. You've probably picked this up from some of my books. You've probably picked this up from some of the podcasts. You had Seth Wickersham, who has this new book about the American quarterbacks on just a couple of weeks ago. I love football. The problem is my kids do not love football. There's a great Tom Segura bit. He's been on the podcast. He's a friend. Our kids have hung out where he's talking about how much his kids hate football. Let me play real fast. I try to take my kids, expose my kids to like with sports, man, I was so excited because I just thought they would be like me and like love football.

4:17Yeah. Like I did with like with my dad. They're like, football is the worst thing ever. For real? They say it. They go, can we do a thing where we never watch football again? No. They hate football. I've dude, I'm like, I have two gay sons. This is crazy. And, um, this is been my life. No matter how much I've tried to get them to like football. I gave a talk to the Cowboys sales staff last year. And so they let us come to a game and we had like owner's box seats. It was incredible. My kids were not excited about any of this. They were excited about the cupcakes in the box. And then the fact that Jake Paul was there.

4:53We have not managed to make it work. And then suddenly, I don't know how, I don't know why, I think it might trace back to one kid at their school who really likes football. It just switched. Last Sunday, we went over to my in-law's house, their grandparents. They were watching football. Then we were eating. I had football on and they were like somewhat paying attention. And my mother-in-law goes, boys, when did you get into football? And they were like, right now. I was like, okay. So this Sunday I said, hey, do you want to go back to grandma and grandpa's and watch football? And they did. And we went over there and we watched the entire Eagles-Rams game because for some reason they're Eagles fans.

5:36I don't want to trace this back. I don't want to question it. I don't want to jinx it. That's not my team. I'm a Saints fan, as you'll see from the video of today's episode. I have been for a long time. But for some reason, they're Eagles fans. And for some reason, they like football. And I'm not going to question it. If you watch the Eagles-Rams game, it was incredible. It's heartbreaking, but incredible. Two blocked field goals lose at the last second. And it couldn't have been a better game to start liking football with. So our whole worlds have changed and my kids get very obsessed. So then we watch the next game and then we watch Sunday night football.

6:15And then as I put my son in the car to go to school this morning, he goes, can we watch Monday night football tonight? So that's my new life. I'm very excited. And that dovetails perfectly into today's episode. because as we're sitting there watching this Rams game, I go, you know you have a signed Rams jersey? And he goes, what? And I go, yeah, the GM of the team and his wife sent it to you. And he's like, what are you talking about? So they had no recollection, but Les Snead and his wife, Kara, have been friends for a very long time. And they spend a good chunk of time in Austin because their son plays at UT.

6:53And so this summer, they came out to the Painted Porch. We did a sort of an impromptu episode of the podcast, which I was not expecting to be able to do, but I'm very glad we got to do. And I think it was awesome. You're going to really like this. If you don't know who Les is, Les is the general manager of the Los Angeles Rams, a position he's held since 2012, which is an extremely long time to be a GM at one team in the NFL. They made it to the Super Bowl twice. They've won once. previously. He was with the Jaguars and the Falcons. And in today's episode, we talk about a bunch of awesome stuff.

7:31And I think you will really like this episode.

7:42Thanks to Toyota Trucks for sponsoring this episode. When I bought my ranch in 2015 out here in Bastro County, I drove my car about halfway down the dirt road that we live on, Thought this isn't going to work. Stopped, parked it, walked the rest of the way home, borrowed my wife's car, drove in Austin and bought a truck. What I bought was a Toyota Tacoma. And this truck wasn't just transportation getting me to and from my house. It unlocked a whole different style of living for us, not just on the ranch, but in our little Texas towns. There were places I could go now that I couldn't go before, especially out here in the piney forests, through the fields.

8:22and on the unpaved roads like the one that I lived in. We got to go deep into the hill country's wild beauty. We've driven all the way out to East Texas. We've driven it across the country. And by we, I mean not just my wife, but both my kids who I drove home from the hospital in that truck. Toyota trucks are built for those who understand that the best adventures happen when you're willing to veer off course because you never know when you'll end up on a Toyota adventure detour. And of course, this is stoicism, too, because every detour, every obstacle is an opportunity. But it's helpful if you can handle the difficulty inherent in that.

9:02If you've got the resilience and the right companion to make it wherever the road takes you. Discover your uncharted territory. Learn more at toyota.com slash trucks slash adventure dash detours. We just took our kids to an outdoor performance at the Nutcracker. They had a snow cone and then they went insane in the car ride home. And one of the things I try to remind myself when that's happening is that I don't control my kids' behavior, especially when they're too far gone like that. But I do control how I respond, right? That's stoicism, but it's also what Dr. Becky talks about. Dr. Becky is a clinical psychologist and a best-selling author, and she founded Good Inside, which is there to give parents practical, actionable tools for handling those everyday challenges with confidence.

9:50My wife introduced me to Dr. Becky's books. I love them. I've recommended them a million times. I've had her on the podcast. And as it happens, Dr. Becky is hosting two live Q &A events for Good Inside members. I am one of them. She signed me up for it about a year and a half ago. I've loved it ever since. On December 1st, you can join Dr. Becky for her How Not to Raise Assholes event, which is about avoiding entitlement and raising kind, empathetic kids. And on December 15th, she's hosting her How Not to Lose It over the holidays event, which I'm sure we could all use. As I said, I'm a big fan of Dr.

10:27Becky. She's been a great influence for me as a parent and just as a human being. And Daily Stoic listeners can join for 15 % off with code STOIC15. You just got to head over to goodinside.com to catch the events.

10:47There's a big Marine base in 29 Palms. And I gave a whole talk about, I opened with your story about panic rules. And they really liked it. Because I mean, think about it. It's like the bombs start going off or everything falls to shit. What do you go back to? What do you go back to? Have you changed your panic rules since we talked? You know what, I was thinking about it when I was coming today, and that's what I was like. I probably, here's the positive. Yes. Is I was disappointed at first, like, wow, I'll probably still have some of the main ones. Yeah. But if they're tried and true panic rules.

11:19Yeah, they shouldn't change. They shouldn't change. Right. Now, every now and then I will add a new rule. There's an evolution where you go, okay, this is a new rule. Yeah. And it's based on maybe a - What's a new one? I'm trying to see which one One of them is Can't put life in a microwave What does that mean? It's okay to evolve It's okay to put something in the oven So even as we've gone through a little bit of a retool Yeah And we're not Hey, we're not ideal yet But it's like, hey, that's life You know, even with your kids You're like, you want to give them one talk And they got it Oh, microwave being just like You heat it up and it's done in 30 seconds Things are complicated That's what that means Yes Yes.

12:01And every now and then it's probably better to put something in the oven and let it be. So, hey, it's probably better to earn experience, which probably somehow becomes wisdom. Then you apply the wisdom versus, okay, we want it right now. Is there a cheat code, dude? Yes. You know, I remember when I came and saw you guys at that training camp, I think it was the season right after you'd been to the Super Bowl, right? And I remember I asked you a question, which might have been insensitive, but I said, how do you not become Carolina which is like you know every every couple years there's a team that's really good in all the sports right there's a team that's really good that goes almost all the way they could have won it they didn't and then you basically never hear from them again right they never make a similar run ever again and you don't know was it just like that was a magical moment they missed it or did they screw something up but obviously you guys didn't do that because Not that year, but the next year you won the Super Bowl, right?

12:58Let's see. It was probably 18, so we went 19, 20, and the 21 season. Right, so two seasons. Two seasons. Two and a half. Three seasons. So two seasons. But in that third season after Super Bowl. Yes. At that point, we were probably in the window, and we knew we needed to cash in, or we would have been a team that we were a good team, just didn't get it done. But we would have had to begin retooling because in football, right, age does matter. a, you know, father time has a say and all of a sudden you have this new, this new, let's call it crop of core players. When I don't remember exactly what you said, but I think you were like, obviously that's the goal is to not do that.

13:34But what do you think you did? Cause that's pretty, I mean, it's pretty, it's pretty rare. It's also, it's probably almost more common. You make it all the way. And then the next year you're great again. Right. But you guys had a little bit of a dip. Well, what we probably did 18, 17, 17, we broke through 18. We got there lost. We were probably contending those two years. But that's when we made the trade for Matthew Stafford. We're like, all right, we may need a veteran QB and not a QB who's getting there. That's not there yet to really make the most of this window, which is a tough deal. You got to prioritize the we over the me.

14:10But then at that point, we knew we were probably going to go into this retooling phase because Aaron Donald, you knew he was going to retire. We still have Matthew Stafford, but he's coming to an end. So the way we've been able to do it now to retool is, all right, let's make the most of the Matthew Stafford era, but we got to do it. So we kind of retooled the defense, rebuilt the defense with, let's call it, players on rookie contracts. Yeah. And at the end of the day, kind of put the veterans on the offensive side of the ball. And that's kind of how we've, let's call it, we peaked. we did have the crash after the Super Bowl and injuries, but now we're climbing back again.

14:50And in the climb, we've been to the playoffs two years in a row. It's probably like making it almost all the way and losing is either really empowering or totally demoralizing. You could tell yourself two stories coming out of that. And I wonder if that's part of why some teams make it, some don't. When Jim Collins was sitting with Kara at the first one, I think he used a Churchill quote that said, this is the end of the beginning. Yes. Yes. It's not the beginning of the end. It's the end of the beginning. I'm like, wait a minute. I disagree. We could have won that. But point being was, okay, y 'all broke through.

15:26Now you go do your thing. So Kara will always say maybe we, she would probably say, I bet you don't win that Super Bowl in 21 if we'd have won it in 18. We never know. But that was kind of his reframing or his frame on the situation was there's a breakthrough Yeah. So if he was in his world, a paradigm of good to great, you just proved you were good. Yes. Now it's time to go do great. There was one study I saw that was saying that sometimes, like in, they looked at like thousands of like March Madness games and being down by like two points at halftime was like somewhat of an advantage. You'd think like if you're losing at halftime, you'll lose the game.

16:09but being down a little bit. The interpretation was something like, you know you're in contention, right? Like you're in the vicinity and now maybe the coach goes into halftime and gives a really good speech and goes, we're within spitting distance of doing, like we didn't get blown out. Psychologically, if you go into halftime with the lead, really this, you're probably mainframe a psychologist. Okay, we can't now lose this. Like we had the lead at half. All we can do now is lose it. where the other team... Playing not to lose versus playing to win. And that always creeps in. You got a lead at half or you're going to...

16:45Everyone keeps a stat. Hey, what's their record with a lead at halftime? But I think that... I talked to when we did a Q &A yesterday in Austin. I talked a little bit about that. Again, I was not there when... If you're a golf fan and you're watching Roy McIlroy try to win the Masters. But when he had the lead and he went to that par five and he really played not to lose when he laid up. And then after laying up, he put it in the water. And I'm not sure in Rory's career at Augusta, he's ever laid up on that hole. But that's probably, I can see it from a psychological aspect. It's better to be, okay, we're tied, we're stroked back, we're in it, let's keep playing the win.

17:28Not playing not to lose. Yeah, playing not to lose. Trying not to screw up is like, But you're thinking screw up, screw up, screw up. Well, I mean, that's all because you have the lead. Yes. You get in your own head. The difference between playing not to lose and playing to win, I sort of see that in you as a GM. You definitely make big moves that maybe – I think a couple seasons after a Super Bowl training a quarterback, not all GMs would have done that because if it doesn't go well, you look like an idiot. Yes, but I think we could talk about that. That's kind of been – Sean and our partner together has been let's play to win.

18:05Yeah. In the game theory, right? At that point, if we're in the – let's play to go win that green jacket. Yeah. Let's play to go be one of 32. And that doesn't mean you're going to get it, but let's just make sure we do that. I would rather try and not win the green jacket than get to the clubhouse and go, I think if we'd have just played to win it, maybe we'd have won this thing versus I think we played not to lose. That psych bleeds down to everyone. It compounds, I think, at halftime. It compounds in the second half where now players aren't attacking. They're more trying to— You want aggressiveness to go through the whole organization.

18:45You're unpacking the box not to break something versus, hey, let's unpack the box to make this the best house we've ever moved into. Right. You're in that compounds. And next thing you know, you're like, oh, by the way, they take the lead. And now you've lost momentum. It's very hard to go. Oh, OK, we got to. Even at the professional level, like, I mean, they've done some studies, right? Like coaches should go for it on fourth down more often than they do statistically. It used to be more, maybe it's a little bit less. But it is interesting that sometimes like the mathematical or the statistical rational thing is not necessarily the thing that people do, even at the level where there's millions of dollars and all the stuff on the line, the most competitive people in the world.

19:28Because what people aren't thinking about is the press conference after the game. If you brought, maybe I'm dumbing down stoicism, but if you brought that philosophy to say, hey, we're just going to play one play at a time. Yeah. And after that play, there's no, let's call it emotional baggage. Yeah. Of, wow, we didn't get the first down. Maybe we should have kicked the field goal. Yeah. Right? All those, if you just play it one play at a time, I think that's where the analytics, because analytics probably is unemotional. Yeah. Would it be a very different game? Would be a very different game.

20:02Yeah. Very different game. I've talked about it with Jim Collins. He would call it return on luck, whether it's good or bad. Yeah. So in that moment, there is probably an element of training where if you train your team, look, we're going to go for it a lot on fourth down. Yeah. Defense, if we don't get it, right, if that defense runs on the field and says, guess what? Y 'all didn't get it, but they're going to go three and out and they'll punt it to you again. Yeah. But if the defense runs on the field and goes, oh, can't believe we didn't get that. Man, if we just had that field goal, right?

20:33And there's all those emotions. So I think that's the human nature of probably sports because there is probably the finality of a score in time. You can just – you see it ticking down. So that's – in golf, it's Sunday at Augusta. It's not Thursday. It's Sunday. Oh, by the way, we're on hole 12. And there's only, you know, seven or eight more. It's not, oh, I got 48 holes left. What do you think about it as a GM? You would have to have a lot of self-confidence to be Nico Harrison right now. Even at that level, like GMs probably should make riskier moves than they do. But you don't want the owner to be mad at you.

21:14You don't want the fans to be mad at you. You don't want them wearing T-shirts with your face on it. Like part of everyone's, I think, instinctive choice is to like not rock the boat, not get in trouble. And so what you end up leaving on the table is potentially risky, successful moves. That was a general manager versus a coach. Coach may, let's just say you have a bad half. You can come and make halftime adjustments and win the game and you'll forget the bad half. Yeah. Nico now, right, for that move. Yeah. Right, is going to be somewhat judged on how it all plays out. So it goes back to the microwave.

21:51You can't, we can't microwave, right, the tale of the tale. Yeah. In eight years, if it goes Nico's way, he might be considered a genius then. Yeah. But he did have to live through, right, those first 10 days, those first 10 weeks, those first 10 months until it goes either way. So that's why I say the difference between coaching and GMing sometimes, microscope versus telescope, is sometimes you have to make a move to not necessarily be liked when a popularity contest, if you're in politics, whatever your popularity poll is or approval rating, you really go, you got to make a decision and go, okay, I think I'm betting this decision is going to be the best thing long term.

22:33And over time, that'll be the headline that matters, not the one the next day of what did they just do. Now, what's interesting, I tell people all the time, in active duty, a lot of times it is hard. Let's call it in his case. And I don't know. I don't know, Luke. I don't know. I don't know the ins out to that. But it's hard to get up in public and go, hey, guys, let me just tell you this. Luca really doesn't love basketball. Yeah. Money's got him to him. He can't explain himself. Yeah, yeah. Because you don't want to do that to the human who also just, right, helped you to the finals the year before.

23:10So I always say there's an element of active-duty press conferences. It's like you're just getting through it to not, as Kara would say, not create another news story. Yeah, you're right. He can't tell the full truth. So that would be a panic rule on that. You can't microwave life. But if you think that's the best thing for the Dallas Mavericks, you got to do it. You got to do it. Yeah. And then you got to own the fact that people are going to hate you and you could turn out to be right and still get fired. It'd be better to live in Bastrop and hang out in this room and go, I don't know what's going on out there, but that's part of one of my practices, probably because of my age, 54.

23:52I never really had to get into having a social media account. So I've never had a Facebook, never had an Instagram. Now, I will care of text chains. People will send something and you'll click on Instagram and play it. So it's not like I'm on a diet, but I don't, because I don't have it, I don't really get the every moment, let's call it pure vomit of what, let's call it the public's thinking about a decision that you've made. So it probably helps you. Stay in a little bit of a bubble in a good way where you're very naive. You're looking at the decision, not people's perception of the decision, and then their reaction to what you're doing.

24:33Now, you've got to know your stakeholders, your important, your inner circle. So there is an element, if your owner listens to that, reads that, okay, you need to be aware so that you're going to have to explain to him or her. Yes. So you've got to know, right, who, I call it who the inner circle is and how you navigate those waters.

25:06It is interesting when you go to like a team's practice facility or whatever, like that they're watching Stephen A. Smith too. Like these shows are on in the background. Yes. In the training room, players are having a blast looking at it. I mean, except when it's them. When I sometimes go and I visit people in D.C. and you're like going to the senator's office and he's just watching CNN or MSNBC or whatever, you're just like, oh, you just get the same shitty news that I do. And then you realize like you would like to think they have like special information or that they're all they're thinking about.

25:39It's like what's great for the voters or best for the team or, you know, the thing. But they're just like, oh, I heard on the news today. Like, people are just reacting to the same kind of, like, whispers and rumors that the general public is getting, which is crazy if you think about it. Really crazy. Growing up in the age where, I mean, a lot of times you're, if you want to call it, you're really legit politicians or leaders that you believe in. It's almost like they came to the podium and set the message. Yes. And you're like, okay, that's what. Yeah. where now it seems like it's more reactive yeah and yeah i get it they're right they have analytics they gotta they gotta get re-elected so they gotta figure out what they're right you would like to think they're getting their news straight from the cia or whatever but they're just like no i heard somebody say on twitter like fuck no yeah you should be getting you should be getting better intelligence not like yeah not just responding the same crap that everyone else is we're looking to you and it turns out you're looking to us and we're just like pointing it would seem like in if I were a politician, I'd probably say we should maybe you should have a wall of televisions and okay, the left and the right you know, and maybe even the TVs, the more centered the news feed is get them closer and go, okay, someone needs to be analyzing what everyone's saying, right?

27:00All the viewpoints. Not just you. I think it's just you. You're in charge, they voted you in. Yeah, you should be making your decisions based on the data, not on vibes. I might be a one-termer, but that's how I would approach it. But that's also why we have term limits. That's what's so crazy about it. Imagine what you would do as a GM with six years guaranteed job security. Not like a six-year contract, but you couldn't be fired for six years. You would actually be able to play to win. The point of the job security is we want you to make hard decisions. And we want your term to not overlap with, say, a senator and a president.

27:38You're going to be in office longer than they are, right? And so you should have the ability to think longer term. That's why we put that into place. And then, no, everyone's riding the kind of day-to-day cycles and they're not thinking long term. That must be the hard part about trying to plan for the future of a team and at the same time thinking about your interests, right? Like what's good for you right now might not be what's best for the team five years from now. And the tension between those two things, that's what's so impressive when you see people who have been somewhere a long time build an institution is like they were able to defy the gravity.

28:16Yeah, that's what going back to, if I bring Jim Collins back, when I read good to great and the level five leader, a little bit what I, not saying I'm level five, tried to model it like, okay, those people put the institution, the organization, the team first. And what I've always thought is if you try to do that, it'll probably end up benefiting you individually, right? Like if you try to do that and the institution, the organization, the business, the team is successful, then that probably is good for you as the individual as well. Versus the other way going, okay, let me try to navigate where I do everything to make sure myself as the individual is reelected.

28:56elected. And then, hey, if it's good for the institution, then that's... We've seen that when people are navigating the politics and I'm going to... Sometimes I thought that just seems exhausting. I'm going to try to make sure all the people in charge really, really, let's call it, like me. And you work that political game when I'm like, it seems like it'd just be easier to go help the Dallas Mavericks be good at basketball then. Okay, I need to make sure I'm saying this to this owner. I'm saying this to the limited partner. I'm saying this to the president and you're playing all of those. Now, some people that might be their superpower.

29:35Yes. Some people are political animals. I'm like, okay, let's just try to get football, play quality football. And it usually works out for everyone. Yeah. I mean, I think about that as a writer, it's like you can try to trace trends or fads or, you know, get the best or the biggest deal or the best marketing, Or you only have a finite amount of energy. So you probably just spend your energy trying to make the best fucking thing possible. And more often than not, that's going to get you where you want to go. And that's probably how you started. Yeah. I mean, I like writing. Why would I not focus on that, the thing that I got into it for?

30:09But I get to now once you have a bestseller, then it's like the marketing people, they now, hey, we want another bestseller. So it would probably be easy to go, okay, I'll just write a couple of books. and who cares if they're good. But then it would be interesting. You could tell me as a writer, sometimes I'm like, will that catch up with you though? Like, it's like, oh, I'm not reading Ryan again. And then when you do say, you know what? I'm going to pour into the one last book from my soul. And everybody's like, nah, I'm not reading that one because your last three were kind of sequels that - I think people can sense when you're doing it for some reason other than what you say you're doing it for.

30:50So if you're like, this will get me lots of speaking or this will get me lots of consulting or this will make me look smart, but you don't actually care about it. I think you can sense in the product whether the person's heart is in it or not. And also, again, like there's so many things you could do with your life. So you should spend the life on the things that you like doing. And if you can get to that point where there's no pressure of, right, you could be the author who, well, writes, you know, his passion or her passion. And then it's like, wow, okay, I'm going to do these two things because I need to right feed the family per se.

31:26So you get those phases of life where you can understand. I mean, that's real. Totally. Yeah. It's all easier to do once you're good. Yes. Then you can have more sort of creative. But to me, that's also the point of getting to a place of good, right? Like I think a lot of people say, okay, like when I'm later, I'm just going to focus on this or once I've made enough money, I'm going to do this. But then the problem is we move the goalposts on what that thing is. And so we're never actually secure. A lot of people want to get in football and they always ask, hey, what can I do to be a GM? What can I do to grow, climb the ladder?

32:01And I go, look, I'm old school, but I would tell you this. Just try to be very good at what you're doing now. I would spend my energy trying to be good. But I'm betting that compounds and at the right time. Now, trying to be one of 32 GMs, you could work a lifetime and just, right, it might not work out. But I'm betting if you—I wouldn't aspire for one seat that there's only 32 of, but you can aspire to. In the game. I think what you're saying is don't aspire to be a specific position because you don't necessarily control whether you get that or how long you get it or how it goes. But if you're instead inspiring to just have a life that centers around the thing that you love, whether it's football or player development or marketing or whatever, then you can be in the mix.

32:52And if you're in the mix long enough, you'll probably get a shot at the big show. But I try to think about it, right? If there's – let's just call it there's someone who never was president, maybe was chief of staff. But I have to imagine that they were very fulfilled. Yeah. life, right? And then that led to something, whatever, but there's that element of like, you have to imagine that that's still very fulfilling, even though. Well, it's like, are you doing the verb or are you trying to be the noun, right? Being or doing. And like a lot of people focus on the other stuff. Like the distinction between like, I want to be a writer and I want to have a bestselling book.

33:32Those seem like the same things, but one is external and one a lot of other people have a say on whether you get to do it or right. But like, no one can stop you from writing. Like you could write right now, you could write an unlimited number of books in your lifetime. The problem is people get very obsessed with publishing and the politics of the business and deals and agents and how do I get this and how do I get that? And again, there's only a finite amount of energy. So why aren't you spending it doing the thing, getting really good at the thing? My friend Cal Newport has a book. I'll give it to you in there.

34:02It's called So Good They Can't Ignore You. I've read a lot of Cal Newport on kids trying to get to college. Oh, yeah. So I know he's got a lot of other things, but he's the best. Thanks so much for listening. If you could rate this podcast and leave a review on iTunes, that would mean so much to us and it would really help the show. We appreciate it. And I'll see you next episode.

34:37you