How To Be A Leader (According To Plutarch)

0:00I got an amazing night's sleep last night. One, because my six-year-old fell asleep in the car at like six o 'clock and he transferred him from the car seat to the bed and it stuck, which is just magic. So he's in bed way earlier than normal. But I sleep really well every night because I have a 8 Sleep Pod 5 Ultra, which is 8 Sleep's best product. I've used 8 Sleep for many years now and it's just totally transformed how I sleep, made me sleep better, made my wife sleep better. It's amazing. So basically, Eight Sleep is this topper that goes over your mattress. It can heat and cool both sides separately.

0:38It can raise and lower each side separately. So it helps you fall asleep faster, stay asleep, and then wake up better. Eight Sleep buzzes me to wake gently every morning, as opposed to some loud blaring alarm. And then I can check the app and it tells me my sleep score. It even helps me optimize my day based on how I slept. If you want to survive the holidays like a pro and just generally sleep better, head over to 8sleep.com slash Daily Stoic and use code Daily Stoic to get$350 off your very own Pod 5 Ultra. The best part is you still get 30 days to try it at home and return it if you don't like it.

1:19But I know you will. Trust me, your body will thank you for this investment in better sleep, shipping to many countries worldwide. See details at 8sleep.com slash dailystoic. My family owns a 2023 Toyota 4Runner, and honestly, it's my favorite vehicle that I've ever owned. Around town, it's smooth and reliable, but where it really shines is on our trips into the backcountry. We've taken it on backpacking adventures to Colorado and New Mexico, loaded it up with gear, and never had to think twice about whether it could handle the terrain. That's what Toyota trucks are built for. Off-road confidence, rugged durability, and the freedom to explore.

1:52Toyota has a long history with the outdoor community, and they're committed to helping more people get out there and experience what nature has to offer. From remote trails to scenic byways, Toyota Trucks empowers you to take the detour, roam freely, and discover places that still feel wild and untouched. And they're not just making great trucks, they're working to expand access to adventure so more people can connect with the outdoors and pass that passion on to the next generation. Discover your uncharted territory. Learn more at toyota.com slash trucks slash adventure dash detours. That's toyota.com slash trucks slash adventure dash detours.

2:29Welcome to the weekend edition of the Daily Stoic Podcast. On Sundays, we take a deeper dive into these ancient topics with excerpts from the Stoic texts, audiobooks that we like here or recommend here at Daily Stoic, and other long-form wisdom that you can chew on on this relaxing weekend. We hope this helps shape your understanding of this philosophy, and most importantly, that you're able to apply it to your actual life. Thank you for listening.

3:12Hey, it's Ryan Holiday. Welcome to another weekend episode of the Daily Stoic Podcast. one of my favorite quotes of all time about leadership comes from the one and only plutarch he says something like a leader has to be willing to do anything but they can't do everything right because if you try to do everything you won't do the most important things and that also means you're micromanaging and you're stepping on people's toes and you're you're just being a control freak right you you have to be willing to get your hands dirty you have to be willing to to to do the hard grunt work and you have to lead from the front at the same time if you're always leading from the front, it means you're not stepping back, seeing the big picture, being what an actual leader is, which is strategic, motivational, holds people accountable, fixes mistakes, all that kind of stuff.

3:58All of which is to say, people have been writing smart stuff about leadership for a very long time. And we've incorporated a bunch of that into something we're about to launch, which is the Daily Stoic Leadership Challenge. It's a nine-week deep dive into how to be a better leader per the ancients, per the Stoics, per people like Plutarch, per the generals that we interviewed, the entrepreneurs, mayors of big cities, leadership experts. We interviewed a bunch of fascinating people, and you'll be able to, if you take the course, you'll be able to ask them questions as part of it. We do these deep dives as part of the intensive.

4:35Anyways, I've been talking about the Leadership Challenge a lot. If you haven't signed up for it, you absolutely should. you can go to dailystoic.com slash lead. And remember, if you're a Daily Stoke Life member, you get this challenge and all the other challenges for free. So it's basically sign up for a Daily Stoke Life. It's a wash if you're thinking about doing the leadership challenge. Anyways, that leads me to today's episode, which is an excerpt from Plutarch's How to Be a Leader. It's three essays from Plutarch on being an educated leader, how to be a good leader, and should old men engage in politics.

5:06Anyways, this is a collection from one of my favorite series, which is the Princeton University Ancient Wisdom for Modern Readers series. This was translated by Jeffrey Benneker. And I appreciate them letting us use this audiobook. We carry this book in the painted porch. If you haven't grabbed How to Be a Leader, you absolutely should. One of the great books of leadership of all time. And I want to bring you this and urge you again to sign up for the Daily Stoic Leadership Challenge, which you can do right now. It starts on September 26, so not that much more time. But sign up there at dailystoic.com.

5:38slash lead and enjoy How to Be a Leader by Plutarch and grab that book at the Painted Porch as well.

5:48To an uneducated leader. In this brief essay, Plutarch refutes the notion that the benefit of holding office is merely the opportunity to exercise power. This is the myopic stance of uneducated leaders whom he portrays as insecure and afraid of the people they govern. Educated leaders, conversely, are primarily concerned with the welfare of their constituents, even at the expense of their own power or safety. A leader becomes educated, in Plutarch's view, by exposure to philosophy, and in particular to moral philosophy. The greatest benefit to be derived from this sort of education is the development of the logos, or reason, which is essential to controlling one's emotions and impulses.

6:31Leaders who allow themselves to be governed by reason will in turn govern their cities benevolently. The uneducated leader, on the other hand, is plagued by greed, paranoia, and a forced sense of grandeur. Plutarch holds out God in this essay as the ideal to which leaders should compare and assimilate themselves. This God, however, is not one of the deities of the polytheistic Greek religion, but rather a philosophical concept that Plutarch has borrowed from Plato. It represents a pure reason and the perfection of moral virtue. Plutarch conceives of this deity as existing in the heavens, where the sun becomes its physical manifestation.

7:11And just as the sun in the sky represents the perfection of the deity, so the leader who is governed by reason exhibits an example of virtue to the citizens of a city. and, even more, this virtuous leader may in turn make the citizens virtuous. Thus, good political leadership depends not on formulating and executing particular policies, but on the moral development of the leaders themselves. 1. The people of Cyrene were entreating Plato to write laws for them and to reorganize their constitution. But he declined, claiming that it would be difficult to establish laws for the Cyrenians because they were so well off.

7:53For nothing is so naturally haughty and harsh and hard to govern as a man who has acquired a reputation for success. For the same reason, it is difficult to act as an advisor about governing to those who hold office, because they are afraid to accept reason as their own governor, for fear that it will make them subservient to the obligations of their office and so reduce the benefit of their power. These people do not know the example of Theopompus, king of the Spartans, who was the first in Sparta to involve the ephors in the affairs of the kings. When his wife reproached him with a complaint that he would leave to his children an office that was weaker than the one he had received, he replied, Actually, it will be stronger, to the same degree that it is more stable.

8:37For by letting go of the excessive and absolute character of his office, he escaped envy and so avoided danger. And yet, when Theopompus diverted royal power to the ephors, which was like diverting the current of a great stream, he deprived himself of whatever power he granted to them. Reason, that has been conditioned by philosophy, however, once it has been established as a counselor and protector of the one who governs, removes the unstable element of power and leaves behind what is sound, just as happens when we apply reason to the maintenance of our health. 2. Most kings and leaders, however, lack sense, and so they imitate the unskilled sculptors who believe that their colossal statues appear great and strong when they fashion their figures with a mighty stride, a straining body, and a gaping mouth.

9:29These kings and leaders, because they speak with a low-pitched voice, cast a harsh gaze, affect a cantankerous manner, and hold themselves aloof in their daily lives, suppose that they are imitating the dignity and solemnity of leadership. In fact, they are not at all different from those colossal statues, which on the exterior possess a heroic and divine facade, but inside are filled with earth and stone and lead. In the case of the statues, however, this weight keeps their upright posture stable and steady, while uneducated generals and leaders are oftentimes tripped up and toppled over by their innate foolishness.

10:07For they establish their lofty power upon a pedestal that has not been leveled, and so it cannot stand upright. Moreover, just as a builder's rule is first established straight and unbending, and then is used to correct the alignment of everything else through adjustments and juxtapositions with respect to it, in the very same way, those who govern must first achieve governance of themselves, straighten out their souls, and set their character aright, and then they should assimilate their subjects to themselves. For the one who is tipping over cannot straighten up someone else, nor can the ignorant person teach, the disorderly establish order, the disorganized organize, the ungoverned govern.

10:48But most leaders misunderstand this, thinking instead that the greatest benefit in governing is the freedom from being governed themselves. Take the king of the Persians, for instance. He believed that everyone was his slave except for his wife, over whom he ought especially to have been the master. 3. Who, then, will govern the governor? The law which is king of everyone, both mortals and immortals, as Pindar says. But I am not referring to a law that has been written in books or on any wooden tablets to be read. But I mean reason, which exists within those who govern, always accompanying and guarding their souls, and never allowing them to lack guidance.

11:32Now, the Persian king assigned to one of his attendants this task, to come to him at dawn and to say, Arise, O king, and attend to the matters that the great Ahura Mazda wants you to attend to. But this voice is always present within educated and self-controlled leaders, speaking out and exhorting them. Polamon used to say that erotic love was a service of the gods intended for the care and well-being of young people. One might more truly say that those who govern serve God for the care and well-being of their fellow humans, with the aim of dispersing some of the noble and good gifts that God grants and protecting the rest.

12:15Do you see this boundless sky, up on high and enfolding the earth in its soft embrace. The sky sends down the beginnings of the necessary seeds, while the earth yields them up. Some will grow from rain, others from wind, and others when warmed on their surface by the stars and moon. And the sun arranges everything and mixes its own charm into all that grows. But of the good gifts which the gods give, gifts that are so great and so many, there is no enjoyment or proper use of them that is separate from law and justice, and a leader. Justice, in fact, is the aim of the law, and law is the work of the leader, and the leader is the image of God who gives order to everything.

13:00True leaders require no Phidias to fashion them, no Polyclitus, and no Myron, because they, on their own, transform themselves into the likeness of God through virtue, creating a real-life statue that is the most pleasant to look upon and the most fitting image of a God. And so just as God has established the sun in the sky as a beautiful image of himself, and the moon as well, so in cities there is a facsimile of God and a source of light, the leader who is God-fearing and upholds righteousness. That is to say, the leader who possesses the reason and the intellect of God, but not one who holds a scepter or lightning bolt or trident, has some fashion themselves in images and describe themselves in writing, thus making their foolishness odious by adding to it what in fact is unattainable.

13:52For God resents those who imitate thunder and lightning and shooting rays of light, but he is pleased with those who eagerly pursue his virtue and assimilate themselves to true beauty and benevolence. These he strengthens, and to these he gives a share of his order, justice, truth, and mildness. Fire is not more divine than they are, nor is light, nor the course of the sun, nor the risings and settings of stars, nor eternity and immortality. For God is fortunate, not in his longevity, but in the governing ability of his virtue. For this is a divine thing, and noble too is the ability of his virtue to be governed.

14:354. When Anaxarchus was consoling Alexander, who was despondent over his murder of Clytus, he said that justice and right were attendance to Zeus, so that everything done by a king was, by definition, righteous and just. But in his attempt to assuage Alexander's remorse for his crime, he encouraged similar actions in the future. This was wrong and harmful. For if we must find a model for this situation, it would not be to say that Zeus has justice as an attendant, but that Zeus himself is justice and right, and that he is the eldest and most perfect of laws. The ancient authors and teachers tell us, however, that not even Zeus is able to govern nobly apart from justice.

15:21She is a maiden, writes Hesiod, uncorrupted and the companion of reverence, self-control, and profit. For this reason they call kings reverend, for it is appropriate that those who are least fearful should be most revered. Leaders, in fact, must be more afraid of inflicting harm than of suffering harm themselves. This is what causes them to be revered. This is the benevolent and noble sort of fear that leaders possess, to be afraid on behalf of those they govern, and so to remain vigilant and keep their constituents from harm, just as dogs keep careful watch over flocks in the pen when they've heard a stout-hearted wild beast.

16:01They act not in their own interests, but on behalf of those they are protecting. Take Epaminondas, for example. When his fellow Thebans had abandoned themselves to a drunken festival, he alone kept watch over the city's weapons and walls, saying that by remaining sober and awake, he was freeing the others to get drunk and sleep. Or consider Cato the Younger at Utica. Following their defeat in battle, he ordered that everyone be sent to the coast, and after embarking them on ships and praying for good sailing, he returned to his quarters and committed suicide. Thus, he has taught us on whose behalf a leader ought to be afraid and what things a leader ought to scorn.

16:45But Clearchus, the tyrant of Heraclea Pontica, used to curl himself into a box like a snake when he went to sleep. And Aristodemus of Argos used to go up into a room on the second floor through a trapdoor, and after moving his bed on top of the door, he would sleep there with his mistress, while the woman's mother would take away the ladder from below, and then put it back again in the morning. How much do you suppose the theatre and the town hall and the council chamber and the drinking party frightened this man, who had converted his own bedroom into a personal prison. In truth, kings are afraid for their subjects, while tyrants are afraid of their subjects.

17:25And so tyrants increase their fear in proportion to their power. The more people they rule, the more people they fear. 5. It is, indeed, neither likely nor fitting, as some philosophers claim that God should exist intermingled with matter that is entirely passive or with substances that are liable to countless acts of compulsion and changes of fortune and fluctuations. Rather up on high, somewhere near that nature which ever and always remains the same, God is established upon a holy pedestal, as Plato says, and, making his way along a straight path in accordance with nature, he completes his course.

18:06Just as the sun in the sky appears plainly as a beautiful facsimile and mirror image of God to those who are able to perceive Him in it, so God has established in cities the light of righteousness and of His own reason. This light acts as an image, which those who are blessed and self-controlled seek to replicate in themselves through philosophy, reshaping themselves closer to the absolute standard of goodness. Nothing other than reason developed through philosophy creates this character within a person. If we understand this, we may avoid making the same mistake as Alexander. For when he saw Diogenes at Corinth, he admired him for his natural abilities and marveled at his intellect and stature.

18:51Then he declared, If I were not Alexander, I would be Diogenes. In saying this, he essentially affirmed that he was weighed down by his own good fortune, fame, and power, which acted as impediments to virtue and left him no time for anything else. He was further declaring that he envied the philosopher's ragged cloak and leather bag because Diogenes was neither conquered nor held captive by them, while he himself was restrained by armor and horses and spears. But it was, in fact, possible for him to practice philosophy, and so to become Diogenes in his character while remaining Alexander in his success.

19:30Indeed, because he was Alexander, he had all the more reason to become Diogenes, because with respect to his great success, which like a ship is subject to strong winds and rough seas, he was in need of heavy ballast and a stout pilot. 6. For private citizens who are weak and obscure, however, lack of intelligence combines with a lack of power to result in no harm being done, just as in bad dreams when a sense of grief disturbs the soul, but the soul, though it has the will, is unable to respond. But political power, once it is latched onto depravity, gives physical strength to one's emotions.

20:11Thus, the saying of Dionysius proves to be true, for he declared that whenever he achieved his desires quickly, that was when he most enjoyed being tyrant. There is a great danger then, when people who are able to accomplish what they wish, in fact wish, for things that are improper. Then, as soon as the word was spoken, the deed was accomplished. Depravity, once combined with political power, races to give expression to every emotion. It converts anger into murder, love into adultery, and greed into the confiscation of property. Then, as soon as the word was spoken, the offender was put to death.

20:50As soon as the suspicion was raised, the one who was slandered was killed. Scientists declare that lightning follows thunder as blood flows after a wound is inflicted, even though we see the lightning first, because our sense of hearing passively awaits sound, while our sense of sight actively encounters light. Likewise, in the sphere of government, punishments may come before formal accusations, and indictments may precede the presentation of proof. For the spirit is already yielding and no longer holds out, as the hook of an anchor lodged in sand yields when seas are rough. Unless a weighty reason presses down on and applies pressure to political power.

21:31For then a leader imitates the sun, which moves least when it achieves its greatest height, once it has ascended high into the northerly sky, and by taking its time, it makes its path more certain. 7. It is, of course, impossible for vices to go unnoticed when people hold positions of power. Epileptics begin to spin and rock back and forth when they go to high places and move around, and so height and motion expose their disease. Fortune, likewise, after elevating uneducated and unlearned people to even slight prominence through some wealth or glory or political office, immediately makes a show of their downfall.

22:12Or to put it another way, when jars are empty, you cannot distinguish between those that are intact and those that are damaged. But once you fill them, then their leaks appear. Just so, cracked souls cannot contain political power, but they leak with desire, anger, boasting, and vulgarity. But why must I go on about this, when we know that people criticize even the smallest of defects in prominent and famous leaders? Wine, for example, became a slander against Caiman, and sleep against Scipio, while Lucullus was criticized for his overly luxurious dinners.

22:55Look, if you're listening to this podcast, you've probably heard of HelloFresh, right? They're the number one meal kit in America. They make home cooking easier with chef-crafted recipes and fresh ingredients delivered straight to your door. This fall, they're serving up even more to love. It's not the HelloFresh you remember. It's even better. HelloFresh is bigger. They've doubled their menu. You can choose up to 100 options each week. It's healthier. You can choose from 15 plus high protein recipes, and they now help you eat greener with veggie packed recipes that have two or more veggies per week.

23:29And it's tastier. You can get steak and seafood recipes delivered every week for no extra cost. They have three times the seafood options. They also have hearty fall recipes like classic beef chili or honey glazed pork tenderloin. We just got home from a week away. We're trying to think about what we're going to eat this week. It was such a relief to see that HelloFresh box sitting on our doorstep when we got home. They've got everything you need for the recipe that they pick out. There's no last minute trips to the store. Plus, the meals are delicious and easy to make. The best way to cook just got better.

24:01Go to HelloFresh.com slash stoic10fm to get 10 free meals plus free breakfast for life. One box with active subscription. Free meals applied as a discount on the first box. New subscribers only varies by plan. That's HelloFresh.com, Stoic 10 FM, to get 10 free meals plus free breakfast for life.

24:25A leader should do anything, but not everything. Now, some people, such as Cato, involved themselves in every aspect of government, in the belief that good citizens, to the best of their ability, never abandon their concern and care for the state. And people praise Epaminondas because he did not neglect his duty even when the Thebans appointed him to an insignificant office out of envy and to insult him. On the contrary, he declared that not only does an office bring distinction to a man, but a man also brings distinction to an office. Then he proceeded to transform that insignificant office into a great and respected honor, even though previously it had involved nothing more than overseeing the clearing of dung and the diverting of water from the streets.

25:10And no doubt even I myself provide a good laugh to people visiting our town when they see me out in public performing similar duties, as I often do. But in this situation, Antisthenes' memorable remark comes to my aid. For when someone expressed surprise that he was personally carrying his salted fish through the marketplace, he said, Of course I am, since it's for me. Conversely, when people reproach me for being on the job while tiles are being measured or cement and stones are being delivered, I say to them, look, I'm not building these things for myself, but for my native city. And so it is with many other small projects.

25:49People would be petty and parsimonious if they oversaw these projects for themselves and carried them out on their own behalf. But when they undertake them as a public service and on behalf of the city, they are not at all undignified. Indeed, the care and eagerness they devote to small matters becomes even more significant. Others, however, believe that the attitude of Pericles was more honorable and appropriate to his high stature. Among them is Critalaus, the peripatetic philosopher, who thinks that, just as the Athenians' state ships, Salaminae and Paralus were not launched for ordinary tasks but were reserved for essential and great missions, so political leaders should apply themselves only to the most important and greatest matters, following the example of the king of the universe.

26:36For God lays hold of the great affairs, but lets the small ones be, leaving them to chance, as Euripides says. I do not agree. Neither, however, do I approve of the excessive love of honor and contentiousness of Theogenes, a man who was victorious at the four great athletic festivals and in many other competitions, and who won not only in the Pancratium, but also in boxing and the long race. After all this, he was attending a festival held at the shrine of a certain hero, and after the feast had been served to everyone as usual, he leapt up to begin the Pancratium, believing that no one else ought to be victorious if he was in the contest.

27:16As a result, he collected 1 ,200 victory crowns, most of which he would consider to be essentially worthless. Those who strip for every leadership opportunity are no different from Theagenes. They swiftly make themselves contemptible to the people, they become oppressive and envied when they succeed, and they bring joy to others when they fail. And the very attributes that earned them admiration when they first took office become the source of mockery and ridicule. And so we must not stand aloof from any public duty, but out of goodwill and concern we must be attentive and knowledgeable about everything.

27:50And we must not stow ourselves away like the sacred anchor on a ship, waiting for our city to experience an extreme need or misfortune. Rather consider the ship's pilots. They manage the tiller with their own hands, but they also turn and rotate other devices by means of tackle handled by the crew, while they themselves sit at a distance. Thus, they rely on sailors, bosuns, and their lookouts on the bow, and they often summon some of these crew members to the stern and entrust them with the tiller. In the same way, it is proper that politicians yield to others with goodwill and kindness, allowing them to govern and be summoned to the speaker's platform.

28:27And they must not accomplish all the public's business by their own speeches, decrees, and actions, but having under them assistants who are trustworthy and of good character, they should assign each one to the task for which they are best suited. Thus Pericles employed Menopus in the generalship, checked the power of the Aeropagus council through the agency of Ephialtes, passed the decree punishing the city of Magara through Carinus, and sent out Lampon to found the colony at Thorei. When power appears to be distributed among many people, not only are we less troubled by an accumulation of envy, but we are also more capable of accomplishing what must be done.

29:07For just as the division of the hand into fingers does not render it weak, but instead makes it a usable and practical instrument, so those who share political power with others make the work of government more effective by their cooperation. By contrast, there are some who, out of an insatiable desire for glory or power, take full responsibility for the city upon themselves, and apply themselves to tasks for which they are neither naturally talented nor trained, as Cleon did when he became general, or Philippoman as an admiral, or Hannibal when he addressed the assembly. Such people have no excuse when they fail, but they must moreover endure the criticism that we read in Euripides.

29:48You're a carpenter, but you didn't work with wood. We might similarly criticize someone by saying, you're an unpersuasive speaker, but you are leading an embassy. You're careless, but you became an administrator. You're inexperienced in accounting, but you are acting as treasurer. Or you're old and infirm, but you are leading an army. Heracles, however, shared power even with Cimon, governing in Athens while his rival recruited crews for the city's ships and made war abroad, for Pericles was more naturally suited to politics, while Caiman was better in war. The people in every city can be malicious and inclined to find fault with their political leaders.

30:29Moreover, unless they observe some partisanship or opposition, the people suspect many good policies of being implemented by conspiracy, which leads especially to criticism of their leaders' political connections and friendships. Now, politicians must not allow any real hostility or disagreements between themselves to persist, as Onomedimus, the demagogue of Chios, did. After emerging victorious from a factional fight, he would not allow his party to drive all its enemies from the city. So that we don't begin to fight with our friends, he explained, once we've rid ourselves entirely of our enemies.

31:05That approach is simple-minded, but whenever the people are suspicious of some important and beneficial proposal, do not allow every politician to come forward and speak the same opinion, as if by prior agreement. Instead, two or three of your friends should openly disagree and speak calmly in opposition, and then acting as though their position has been refuted, they should change sides. For by this stratagem, your friends will bring the people along with them, because they appear to have been won over by what is advantageous to the city. In less important matters, however, there is no harm in allowing your friends to rely on their own reasoning and to genuinely disagree so that when it comes to the most important issues, they may appear to reach consensus about the best course of action without any pre-arrangement.

31:49It is natural, then, that politicians always provide leadership in a city, just as the queen is leader among bees, and bearing this in mind, politicians must manage public affairs. Even so, they should pursue neither aggressively nor excessively those offices that confer power and are won by election. But there is nothing honorable or democratic in the love of holding office. But they should not refuse an appointment either if the people are calling them to serve and bestowing power lawfully. And they should accept and eagerly serve even in positions that are beneath their dignity. For politicians who enjoy renown because they have held the greater offices are obligated in turn to elevate the stature of the lesser offices by holding them too.

32:33And with regard to the most impressive positions, such as the generalship at Athens, membership on the city council at Rhodes, and leadership of our allied Boeotian cities, politicians are likewise obligated to show moderation, giving way sometimes and yielding to others, while in turn adding honor and distinction to the lesser positions. In this way we may avoid being either despised or envied.

33:11Thanks for listening to the Daily Stoic Podcast. Just a reminder, we've got signed copies of all my books in the Daily Stoic store. You can get them personalized. You can get them sent to a friend. The obstacle is the way you go is the enemy. Stillness is the key. The leather-bound edition of the Daily Stoic. We have them all in the Daily Stoic store, which you can check out at store.dailystoic.com.

33:48Look, ads are annoying. They are to be avoided, if at all possible. I understand as a content creator why they need to exist. That's why I don't begrudge them when they appear on the shows that I listen to. But again, as a person who has to pay a podcast producer and has to pay for equipment and for the studio and the building that the studio is in, it's a lot to keep something like the Daily Stoic going. So if you want to support a show but not listen to ads, well, we have partnered with Supercast to bring you a ad free version of Daily Stoic. We're calling it Daily Stoic Premium. And with Premium, you can listen to every episode of the Daily Stoic podcast completely ad free, no interruptions, just the ideas, just the messages, just the conversations you came here for.

34:42And you can also get early access to episodes before they're available to the public. And we're going to have a bunch of exclusive bonus content and extended interviews in there just for Daily Stoic Premium members as well. If you want to remove distractions, go deeper into stoicism and support the work we do here. Well, it takes less than a minute to sign up for Daily Stoic Premium, and we are offering a limited time discount of 20 % off your first year. Just go to dailystoic.com slash premium to sign up right now or click the link in the show descriptions to make those ads go away.