Jaimie Alexander: “I Was Asked If I Wanted to Live or Die”

0:00Welcome to the Daily Stoic Podcast, designed to help bring those four key Stoic virtues, courage, discipline, justice, and wisdom into the real world.

0:14hey it's ryan welcome to another episode of the daily stoic podcast by the by the time you are listening to this i think it's coming out on saturday we may all be frozen solid here in texas people are freaking out it's not supposed to be that cold but texas it doesn't get that cold here that often so they really freak out they close all the roads the power grid is taxed that is a real problem. Texas has its own power grid for some weird political reason. And so it can't, I think, as easily take power from other parts of the country that aren't undergoing weather things. That's why we had in 2021, this crazy freeze.

0:55It's like nine degrees out. I remember we lost power in the middle of it. I had to go sleep in my kid's room in their bed. So they literally could stay alive. I don't think it's supposed to be that serious, but there is a lot going on. We're doing a dinner at the Painted Porch for people who bought a bunch of copies of Wisdom. It's the philosophers dinner that we do for the launches of all of them. We've been looking forward to it for a long time. It's hard to justify canceling a thing because here it's 30 degrees when that's a normal temperature for this time of year all over the country. So I'm not sure exactly what's going to happen, but people have been freaking out about it.

1:30Should we move it? Should we cancel it? What should we do? We're always like this or that. And I texted her, she posted on Instagram. I said, I'm not going to worry about it, but somebody probably should. Which to me is, that's what delegation is about. I'm not saying it's not worth thinking about. It is worth thinking about. It's just not worth me thinking about because one, I don't know anything about it. I'm not a logistics and planning person. But also I have other things I'm supposed to be thinking about that if I don't think about, don't get thought about. What does that have to do with today's episode?

2:04Nothing, just what's going on here. Over the years, I've heard from tons of people. Actually, I just heard from someone yesterday that got introduced to Stoicism in recovery. The Daily Stoic and ideas from the Stoics have been passed around the 12-step community for many, many years. And in fact, I think some of the original founders of Alcoholics Anonymous quoted the Stoics from time to time. Certainly the serenity prayers got some real overlap with the Stoics, but it's been amazing to hear people talk about how philosophy helped them get sober, stay sober, how to live a good life, how to rebuild their life after they blew up their life, or just however alcoholism can ravage families and friend groups and communities.

2:49And recently, someone who I'm certain you have seen on TV or at the movie theater talked to me about just that. That's today's guest, the actress Jamie Alexander. We were actually connected by a mutual friend who told me that Jamie reads The Daily Stoic every single day. And when I heard more about her story, she had to come on the podcast, or she did when she was here in Austin. Jamie's path to stoicism and sobriety was actually caused by this crazy near-death experience, which she tells the story of in today's episode. I think this was a really powerful conversation. I think you're going to like it.

3:25And it just goes to show what someone's life looks like on the outside. At the peak of their career, walking red carpets, landing huge roles, being famous, being a hero to little girls, but their inner world can be falling apart. They could be really going through something. They could be at rock bottom. and Jamie has been through a lot, but she's come out of it stronger. And I think she's got a really interesting perspective that you're going to get a lot out of. As I said, you've almost certainly seen a movie or a TV show with Jamie in it. She's part of the Marvel universe. She was Lady Sif in the Thor movies.

3:58She's been on Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D., Kyle X.Y. She was the star of the NBC series Blindspot, to name a few. You can follow Jamie on Instagram at Jamie Alexander, J-A-I-M-I-E. I have spelled Jamie many, many ways over the years as an author. People go, it's Jamie spelled like you think. It's never like you think. Hers is spelled J-A-I-M-I-E, Alexander. And you can also subscribe to her sub stack, which is great in the hallway. I'll link to that in today's show notes. Let's just get into this episode.

4:34So you just learned how to swim? I did. Like you didn't know your whole life or you just weren't good at it? I could tread water, but my mother didn't know how to swim. So I never learned. She didn't teach me to be afraid of the water. It's just I grew up being afraid of it. And so if you don't know how to swim, you're going to be a little afraid. Well, I'm literally like Bruce Willis in Unbreakable. Like the way water it was, I should say, not is, but was my Achilles. So the journey of how I got to learn is pretty interesting. Tell me. Well, the thing is, you know, about six weeks ago, I found myself in a kind of a heavy depression.

5:08and I've gone in and out of that most of my life. I didn't know what to call it, obviously, but now, you know, I've been sober for almost eight years and I just, I've gotten to know myself quite well. And so I thought, what, what is this? Like, why is this happening? And I thought, you know, I don't feel useful. That's why I don't feel like I have a purpose. And so my history had been, well, let's go find it outside somewhere, outside of myself. Let's, let's go do this and be the best at that and do this crazy thing. and everybody expects you to do, you know, these crazy physical stunts. And then I thought, like, what if I start doing this stuff that terrifies me?

5:41And look, this isn't like jumping off a building. I've done that. But this isn't that. It's more just like people have fun doing this, and yet I'm scared of it. So I want to get past that. What's it all about? What's it all about? And so I asked a friend of mine who's done like some Ironman competitions and triathlons. I said, if I found a pool in New York, would you teach me like once a week? And he said, yeah. And I was like, oh, gosh, now I have an accountability partner. And so I went to my friend's pool, who she was so lovely, to introduce me to her doorman and all the stuff. And they let me swim there.

6:18Yeah. Mind you, it's a 40-foot pool. It's not very long. So this is like perfect for somebody like me to learn. And it turns out I'm actually physically built like a swimmer and I'm really good at it. compared to what I thought. And I started to have so much fun right away because it wasn't about winning. It wasn't about being great at it or anything. It was just like, hey, maybe this is one of those things I could use to help somebody else. And so my goal is to eventually maybe six months to a year from now compete for charity. So that is the goal that I've set for myself. It can be hard to go back and learn things that like you should be good at.

6:56Yes. Do you know what I mean? Like, as an adult, we were like, if you're like, hey, I want to figure out theoretical physics. You know, people are like, oh, OK, I'm sure that's hard. But it's hard when you're like, I don't know, if you don't know how to ride a bike or you don't know how to swim or to go back and be a beginner at something that like most of the beginners at are children. Like you think about someone who's like maybe they didn't learn to read or they're like they really struggled in school to then go back and be like, oh, no, I have to do like fifth grade math. Yes. That's hard to do.

7:26Yeah, it's a big hit to the ego. And what I've learned about myself is those big hits to my ego are great. Sure. They're good for me. Yeah, to be bad at something is good. It's humbling and kind of immersive to go do a thing for not just like, hey, I'm bad at it. That's why I don't do it. But to do it because you're bad at it. Right. But also, like, it helps me get rid of my own fear, like this rumination that I always have. You're not good enough. You're not this. You're not that. It's like, OK, you know what? Like, F you. Because, like, I've had enough of that in my life. And I just thought, this is my life.

8:06You know, like, I am living on borrowed time. If life were fair, I would be dead. I wouldn't be here. I had an incident back in 2018 where I was given a choice, like, do you want to stay or do you want to go? What happened? You really want to know? Sure. So I had been working on a series that was very physically demanding for a while, and I had gotten into the habit of drinking myself to sleep. I was just always in pain. I had dislocated shoulder, broken nose, you name it. But according to my orthopedic surgeon, who happens to be the head of NYU sports medicine, I've had more injuries than a pro footballer.

8:45And he has a good sense of humor, but he wasn't joking. So I was like, thanks. No, I was reading about it. It seems like I think people think acting must be sort of nice and cushy. But you seem like you get hurt a lot. Me specifically. Yeah. I don't know what that says about me. I think I'm a little bit of a daredevil. But, you know, there was people pleasing in that. Because I was like, if I do the stunt, then we get to go home early, which means my entire crew gets to go see their families. And that was something I took very personally. Like, I took responsibility for everybody's well-being on my set, which to a degree is nice.

9:17It's kind of to respect other people's time. And yes, so. So you're saying there were things where you were like, you didn't feel good about it or you felt like it wasn't being done the right way. Yes. Or you didn't maybe understand, but you didn't want to kind of like we're talking about the swimming. You don't want to be like, I need more instruction or let's do it this different way because that would be inconvenient. Yes. I was always worried about being an inconvenience to people. But that said, I am quite skilled at a lot of the stunt work I was doing. I'm currently not doing any right now.

9:49Not on purpose anyway. But I was a high school wrestler. I have a big background in sports. And I knew how to do the things I was doing. It's just when you do too much of something for too long, it's too much. And your body can't at some point is going to tell you stop or we're going to make you stop. Right. And that's what happened to me. And I remember this so vividly. Like I would I dislocated my shoulder and it went right back in. I've literally been so lucky with some of the injuries I've had. And I just looked at it and I was like, dang it, I'm right handed. Like, how am I going to do this fight sequence?

10:23And same thing when I broke my nose. I went to the hospital, got the CT scan and came back to set and started sword fighting again with like a kind of a screwed up face. And it's just like wouldn't quit. Like I was like, no, you know, I'm responsible for this. And so I just remember that, you know, even though I had all this swelling and I had pain, I wouldn't even take Advil or Tylenol. But I would drink an entire bottle of bourbon at night to fall asleep. Yeah. So my wiring had gotten so screwed up over my life. It was my magic potion. It was my best friend. And, you know, I could do anything as long as I had a little a little of that in my system or a lot.

10:57Nobody around me knew. I was so high functioning in that sense. I mean, the amount of effort it must have taken for me to hide this from everybody. No wonder I had an organ explode. Yeah. You know, so what happened? So it was kind of like four days in the making. This like beginning of the end is kind of how I refer to it. I had met this guy, really nice guy who happened to be sober. and I just thought oh like okay cool for I don't know like he doesn't drink you know yeah but I remember when I met him on our first date I thought to myself I wish I could do that like I had a thought and I was about seven or eight measuring shots full of bourbon before I even got there yeah and proceeded to order another double bourbon while he ordered I think an Arnold Palmer and he was so relaxed and comfortable with himself and I felt like I was going to explode out of my skin And I just felt so weird, you know?

11:49And so we had that date. And I just remember it was like, click something. It's like I started hearing a whisper of like, hmm. That you could be a person. Yeah, I could live. I know it'd be okay. And we stayed in touch a little bit. I had to work a lot. So I didn't see him for a while. And then one Saturday he was like, hey, do you want to come with me? A little drive upstate. I'm looking at properties. He's like, don't take this weirdly. You know, he's like, I'm not asking to like move in with you or anything. He's like, I just, that's what my weekend's going to entail. And I'd like to see you.

12:16And so I said, sure, like a day trip. That's fun. And the night before I had gotten obliterated to fall asleep because I knew I had to be up early to get in his car to go upstate. So I get in the car and he gives me this like really heavy, like green smoothie full of kale and all this other stuff. And I was like, oh, thanks. I was like, if I drink half of this, I'm going to literally ruin your car. So we go upstate and a snowstorm that was predicted to be very mild end up being like a blizzard. And we got stuck. And so he's like, look, I really can't try to drive back down right now. He's like, if you're comfortable, he's like, I'd really like to just rent a place and stay the night.

12:51And he's like, with more than one bedroom. Like, it's not, you know, I'm not trying to, you know, make a pass or anything. And so I was like, oh, sure. Not thinking how hard it was going to be for me to not drink. Right. Because your sort of secret life is intersecting with your... Yeah. Yeah. And I didn't bring a flask. And I always had a flask. I mean, I say these things out loud, and I think I'm talking about someone else. And I'm like, no, that's me. That was me. So get in the car. We go upstate. Blizzard hits. We rent an Airbnb. I realize very quickly that there's no alcohol in there. Yeah.

13:26I am like the most good... If somebody mischarges me on a grocery bill, even 10 cents, I go back to the grocery store and give them the dime. I can't not do that. And I've always been that way. So the thought that I would have stolen someone else's alcohol so that I could feel better really did not make me feel very good about myself. I tore that place apart. I looked everywhere while trying to hide from him that I was, like, losing my shit because he didn't know that I had this battle. I didn't really even know. Would you go through literal withdrawals if you didn't do it? Or you were just like, no, this is, like, how I sort of deal with anxiety and stress.

13:59Like, I'm just wondering how bad it was. I, at the time, did not know if I would because I had never tried. Right. So, I mean, there were times where, you know, over the years I'd train for something and I would stop drinking for a while. But I think that was well before I crossed the line into alcoholism. Yeah. So, I was very shaky. So, we went to bed. A lot of crazy stuff happened. The power went out. And I was like, I am in literal hell. And he was like, maybe I could do some Reiki or do you want to meditate with me? And I was like, where is the gun? Like, you know, I just want to, like, turn my brain off.

14:27And we ended up doing some Reiki. he did some Reiki and I was like, oh, this is quite nice, you know, but I was like, oh, sober people. And then the next day, weather cleared up, you know, ended up very carefully driving back down to Brooklyn where I lived, went in my apartment, went to pour a drink and I couldn't drink it. It was the most bizarre. Like I would drink even if I had pneumonia. That's a true story. I had pneumonia and I drank anyway. When I hurt my spine back in 2012, there was a co-star that ended up bringing small bottles of alcohol into the hospital. I mean, this is not new. This was not new for me.

15:02I didn't know all this until I did the work in a 12-step program, but so I couldn't drink it. And I was like, you got to go to bed. It's late. You have to be up at 4 a.m. for work. Just go to bed, you know, and I left it. I mean, I left the giant bourbon straight, no ice, on the counter. And I because I just thought, well, I'll drink it tomorrow or something. I go to bed. I I wake up, make my coffee, go to work. And I am so shaky. I don't feel good. And I just think you didn't sleep, you know, you didn't sleep enough. And I started eating so much junk. I mean, you would have been like, are you insane?

15:35Like Nutella covered waffles. I think I even got the waffle truck to come to work. I had ice cream and all these things that I was like, I'm going to throw up if I keep doing this because I have some stunts I have to do. And but I couldn't not have it. And I just kept getting shakier and shakier. And that night I went home, tried to train, and my trainer was like, stop. She's like, you don't look okay. You're losing your balance. You're wide as a ghost. She's like, maybe you just need to go to bed. You know, again, unaware of my alcoholism. And so I was like, oh, all right, cool, you know, oops.

16:05And I looked in the mirror, and I did look kind of strange. But that wasn't weird for back then because, again, my body was being torn apart by that show. You know, I had a struggle with a lot of chemical burns on my skin from the fake tattoos. There's a lot of things that maybe one day, very respectfully, I will talk about. But right now, I don't feel is the time for that. But I had a lot of stuff going on. So when I look in the mirror and I'm black under my eyes and I'm white as a ghost, that's not that crazy. Part of it is just you're disassociated from what's happening outside and what's happening inside.

16:38That's kind of the whole point is like you can get to a place where you just don't have to feel stuff or think about stuff. In the sense that it's like working, that's what it's doing. that's the technology of it so you don't have to do that stuff yeah very effective yeah very effective um you know so i i stopped the workout you know i went back to the bourbon that was sitting on the counter i remember checking it out because it wasn't fresh and like pouring another one and it literally felt like something was pulling the glass out of my hand it was the weirdest it's it actually scared me like it's like i could feel something being like do not drink this and i was like again not my normal like i was like the opposite of normal now that's three days without this and I'm feeling very shaky and I'm kind of so dizzy that I can't, you know, it was not good.

17:22So I just said, just, just go to bed, just go to bed. There's something in me that was like, just go to bed. And I went to sleep, could not sleep that night. I was awake all night. I sleep with the covers like up to my chin, like a little, like a little tiny little, you know, cat or something. And, and I did, I just pulled them up. And I remember thinking like, please, please, please, I need to fall asleep. I need to fall asleep. There was just something in me that was like, do not go back in the living room to the bar cart and get that stuff. Don't do it. and um and i went to sleep somehow and i woke up and i felt better i don't i wonder if it was like my soul felt better like i was doing something that you know i was like i don't think i knew that i was doing maybe the hardest thing i've ever done yeah but i had a really weird stomach ache and i just thought oh you ate all that crap yesterday you can't do that today you know again really ignoring like hey you know you you're not really one to get stomach aches right um but i just thought well yeah that makes sense i ate a bunch of crap and you know so i go to work and And we're filming in Manhattan and the stomachache just keeps getting worse.

18:18And I never even took Tums. And I was like, well, then it'll work, you know. And so I asked the nurse, I'm like, hey, can I have some Tums? And like, what's the amount you can have safely? I was like, can I chew like nine of these? And I had it. It did not make one difference. So she, you know, thought maybe it was trapped air. I don't know. You know, she was so sweet. And again, my pain tolerance was incredibly high at that point because half of it was shut off. When you're not taking care of yourself, so you always feel shitty. So what is actually something to be alarmed by? Right. I couldn't tell the difference.

18:46And so it started getting worse and she was pushing on my stomach. And it got to the point where I was like, I can't stand up straight. And I had this giant machine gun. I'm running up the stairs in this scene. And actually a paparazzi got photos of that day. And I created a little substack recently and I put them up there so people could see sort of the reality of the situation. And I did not look good. And that was like full on makeup and everything. Right. So I was like, oh, got to my trailer. midday. Now, I think also I didn't really tell everybody like just how bad it was hurting because this was going to be the first half day of work I had ever had on the show.

19:20And I was about to go meet the new guy who I really liked and we were going to go hear a lecture. So I was very excited. I was like, I have a half day. And plus you have this habit of not, you've told yourself you're the kind of person that doesn't inconvenience people with your stuff. Yes. Yeah. And I'm the tough one, right? I'm just like tough. All my other characters I've ever played have had this like grit about them and this toughness. And I just think I was meshing myself into these characters thinking, well, if they can do it, I can do it, you know, which is crazy, especially in the Marvel world.

19:49But I started it started to get worse. I went to my trailer for lunch. I was I was supposed to be wrapped by them, but I wasn't. So I was like, OK, no problem, you know. And it got to the point where I like I could not stand I fully was bent over and they called a doctor to the set. I and the doctor said, do you have ovarian cyst? Did you ask for the doctor? I asked. I'm just saying, because that's like not a small thing. It's not a small thing. And it's interesting that like visibly, you know, looking back and talking to some of the folks I still know from that job, they were like, you looked horrible.

20:22And I thought, interesting that no one decided, hey, maybe she needs a doctor. Right. You know, it was like, hey, no, she's got to keep going. Nobody wants to force a doctor on. And that's why you have to be an advocate for yourself because like it feels like it's not my place to do this thing for you. There's that. And also if we have to shut down, that costs Warner Brothers X amount of money. And I get it. That's a really shitty place for a lot of producers to be in because they're just like, how can we best handle this where everybody's OK? You know, and and I was so strong. I mean, I was literally, you know, I told you I dislocated shoulder, put it in a sling and continue to do a knife fight in the back of a van one day.

21:00I mean, it was just like chaos, right? So they were really also responding to how I normally was. So a doctor comes, asks about ovarian cysts, because now the pain had gone to my lower right side. And I was like, I'm pretty sure I would know if I had one of those. So I said, no, I don't think so. And at this point, I'm on the floor of my trailer. And the doctor steps out. I can't remember where he went. He may have went to talk to the producer or something. And I had my phone close enough where I started to be like, something's wrong, something's wrong, something's wrong and i grabbed the phone and i called a producer i said i need i needed i need to go to the hospital or something i need help and coincidentally my obgyn where we were filming he was like a few streets over so they were like let's take her there because i think the producers thought oh it's ovarian or something because of the doctor i think there was like a miscommunication i got in there that guy took one look at me did an ultrasound he goes your appendix is rupturing he's like you need to have the driver take you to a hospital right now an ambulance will take too long.

21:53He's like, if they don't take this out right away, I will come and do it myself. And this guy I've known for a while and I have never seen him look like this. And I was like, oh God, you know, I was just like, wait, what? Like, I was like, no, I have to go back to work. You know, like my brain was just like, no, no, no, no. Still trying to make it not what it was. And I get to the ER and they put me through a CT scan and they're like, you are entering sepsis. And I, again, was like, what I don't understand. And meanwhile, I have a bunch of fake wounds on, Right. So they're going and I'm like, those aren't real, you know, and I'm trying to pull the tattoos that I was wearing for this job off my body because people were taking photos of me in the emergency area.

22:31Right. And I felt so awkward because, again, oh, gosh, I can't look weak in front of anybody. Right. So I go through the process of getting prepped for the OR and I had a what a lot of us in recovery like to refer to as a white light moment. I was I didn't grow up religious. You know, I kind of always felt like there was something maybe out there helping me out. but I had lost touch with it for so long, I thought. And I heard a voice and it said, do you want to stay or do you want to go? And at that time I had been left in this, like, I don't know where I was. I had a sheet over me and I was, I just knew from like my breasts to my knees, I was covered in orange dye, which I guess is beta dyeing or something.

23:07I don't know, something sterile to like, so that they can cut you open. Oh, they can cut you open, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I just remember being like, what is, and I had felt so hot on the inside. And all of a sudden, as soon as I heard the voice, I did not feel anything. And I was like, it's over. Like, I didn't have any pain. And this pain, I've been told by certain doctors, and I can't speak to this because I have no children, but they say it's worse than childbirth. And I was like, well, you might want to ask a few other women that because I don't know if that's true, but it was horrible. I mean, I did have contractions.

23:37It was like, and then the organ burst. And so it said, do you want to stay? Do you want to go? And my first thought was, I remember you. and I was just like and um like I can get emotional about it now because I just knew uh sure I knew that I was I wasn't by myself and I wasn't afraid like all that fear I had felt before was just gone and it felt like that that when I heard that voice like that's my existence like that's the real thing like this I don't know what this is but that was like oh like you know like I felt like I was home somehow. It's hard to explain it. And I heard this voice. It was within myself.

24:17I didn't hear it externally. I didn't see anything. I just knew, like, I just felt it. And I said, I remember you. And then I thought I was right. And I grew up in a very violent house. I grew up, you know, like I was right. Like I haven't been alone this whole time. Like I was right that, like that thing that I hoped that there was out there was there. And it was such a weird feeling. And then I remember thinking, why have I worried every single day of my life? What am I doing? Like, what a waste of time, you know? And I said to it, you know, I didn't want it to go away because I felt so happy.

24:52But my theory was this. So I replied to it and I said, I think I need to stay. I think there's something else I'm supposed to do. And I really felt like that. Like, it was giving me a choice, which was very strange. I mean, if we consider the concept of free will, I was like, well, case in point, I guess. And I thought, you know what, if you've always been there, like I think you have, you'll be there later. So why should I go now? And that was my reasoning behind it. I was like, I'm going to do it better this time. And immediately when I made that choice, it said, then you can never drink again.

25:23And I was like, what? Whoa. I didn't know that had anything to do with anything. And it was like the weight of the world went off my shoulders. And I was like, oh, there's a name for it. There's a name for what I've been doing and what's been screwing up my everything. And there's a name for my darkness that I can choose to fix. That is within my control. And I was so happy. I mean, I was deliriously happy. Mind you, I had no medication in my system because they were about to put me under for a very long time. So I had asked for it. I was like, please make it stop, you know. So I was as sober as I'd ever been.

25:58But as soon as I said, OK, I won't. I promise I will never drink again. All the doctors came in and it was like time had stood still. The voice was gone. And I was so happy. I remember telling them it's going to be OK. And I had this thought the other day because I was like, I'm pretty sure I told them I loved them. The doctors? Like, I loved you. Yeah, like, it was so interesting, like, to say that to a couple strangers that are busy. You know, it's like, stop distracting them and trying to, like, hold their hand. I know I tried to hold this one woman's hand. Yeah, I remember that one. And so they rushed me into the OR.

26:27And at the same, like, when they were lifting me off the gurney, because, again, things started moving very fast, like, immediately. And still couldn't feel anything. Was starting to feel very delirious. And they pulled me from the gurney to the OR table, and my IV caught, like, on a screw or something. I don't know what it was, but it snapped the tube. and all the blood started to come out of my arm. And I felt my arm go like very cold and limp. And I still didn't care. I was like, oh, you know, and then they put me on the OR table. And that's when the mask went over my face and they were gassing me to knock me out because this has gotten really bad very fast, I guess.

26:59And I felt myself not able to breathe. And I literally felt my heart stopping and my lungs stop. And I grabbed, I remember I took my right arm and tried to grab the anesthesiologist's throat, which, you know, I mean, I felt like I was going to flatline or something, like I was going to die. And it's so funny because I did that just to be like, no, no, you don't need that. Take it off. You know, I don't know what I was thinking, but that's the last thing I remember. I woke up feeling cold. I felt so happy and so much joy. And I remember the doctors having a little meeting with me. I think I still had the like hairnet on or something because I remember being like, can I take this off?

27:33Vanity. And they said, you know, this is going to be touch and go for a few days. You could end up being in here for a week to months. And I was thinking, oh, there's a lot of people that are going to be pissed off about that. But I said to them, I said, no, I'm okay. I'll be okay. And my blood tested clean on the second day. No sepsis, which is crazy. Mind you, I was on a antibiotic, like crazy drip every 45 minutes. But they kept me another three days because they thought this is not accurate. And they kept checking and kept checking. And then finally, they let me go on day five. I got to go home.

28:05And I was like, if that's not some sort of confirmation that what I met in that room was real, I don't know what is. Because again, like I said, if life were fair, if like two plus two equals four on paper when it comes to life and grace, I would be dead. There's just no way that somebody like me could have survived that. Like, I mean, it was literally, I feel like I was given a choice. And I had told the doctor eventually, I think on like day three, that I think I had a drinking problem. And she was very serious. She was, when did you last drink? And I said, like three or four days before I got here.

28:36She's like, I want you to know something. She's like, you are very lucky. She was actually really kind of mean in a good way, like tough love. And she said, you're very lucky. She's like, if you had drank one or two days before this, you would be dead. And she's like, so if you need help, you let me know. And she's like, I'm going to give you some literature. And I was just like, OK, like, I mean, I was so scared into being sober. I may have accidentally got sober like I didn't do it on purpose. And then I was like, now I have to do it on purpose.

29:07Today's sponsor is Chime, the fee-free banking app changing the way people bank. Chime is not just another banking app. They unlock smarter banking for everyday people with products like MyPay, which gives you access to up to$500 of your paycheck anytime and can get you paid up to two days early with direct deposit. No more overdraft fees, minimum balance fees, or monthly fees. Plus, Chime makes your everyday spending work harder by delivering real rewards and financial progress. I know my younger self would have benefited from this. There was so much to manage, and I was so busy, you know, working on my career and trying to do all the things I was trying to do.

29:50I didn't want to have to think about overdraft fees or my minimum balance or how much is in my checking account. I didn't want to take time from what I was doing to transfer money from this account to that account. It would have been so convenient to have it all in one place accessible on my phone. If you want to bank fee-free plus overdraft coverage, you should switch to Chime. Plus, you can earn up to 3.5 % APY on your savings. That's eight times higher than a traditional bank. Chime is not just smarter banking. It's also the most rewarding way to bank. Join the millions who are already banking fee-free today.

30:25It takes just a few minutes to sign up. Head over to chime.com slash stoic. That is chime.com slash stoic.

31:01the ideal scenario would be all this happens and then you just never felt a desire to drink ever again yeah that would have been great but that's probably not how it went right it's not probably that's actually when the work starts yes it's coming out of the hospital yeah the first thing is taking advantage of a moment of grace when you have something it's quiet usually like i love that quote, confidence is silent and securities are loud. I feel that anytime I need to get in touch with my inner voice, it's quiet. It makes me, I have to be still to hear it a lot of times. You don't hear voices while you're doing 30 other things.

31:35You're very busy. No. You might feel something and then it's your choice whether or not you want to consciously, you know, connect with it. But I had to have the courage to ask for help. And I think whatever's out there, higher power, whatever you want to call it, knew that I wasn't going to be able to do it by myself. And it's like, you know what, we're going to wake your ass up because you are so headstrong. You're so, I've looked after everybody in my life, my entire life. I'm financially responsible for some other people in my family. I've always been the tough person. I, you know, at a very young age, ended up getting my mom to divorce her second husband who was very abusive.

32:09Like, I mean, I just am like doing things that kids don't normally do. So for me to ask somebody for help was that equaled failure to me. And this was like, you don't have another choice. You can't even walk. So it's like, you're going to, once you're out of the wheelchair, you need to ask for help. And I asked that guy I was dating, I said, I know I have a problem. And he thought, wait, what? Like he didn't see it. And then he thought, I think you're just like sensitive. You went through a lot. And I was like, no, let me tell you about how I used to drink. As I said it out loud, it was like, okay, you're going to have to say goodbye to your best friend and a part of you is dead and good for you.

32:44But also this is going to be the worst thing you've ever been through. I imagine the higher power part of the 12-step program was easier for you, given the, whatever the mysterious force pushing you away from drinking when it would have killed you. And then of course the question in the hospital. Yes, you would think so. I think once I, the further I got from that like incident in the hospital, the more I was like, you know what, this sucks. Like, this is so hard. You know, like I say to a lot of people, I say, you know, there's not one person on earth that doesn't want to shut off life for a few minutes.

33:15Life is hard. It is what it is. But if you didn't have adversity in your life, you would not have an opportunity to show up. And that's where stoicism came in to the whole thing for me. When did you find stoicism? I found it through sobriety. Interesting. Now I'm talking about the textbook version of stoicism. Yeah. I had always operated, and this is what I learned about myself through reading, you know, meditations, Marcus Aurelius, Epictetus, I'm a huge fan of. They couldn't be more different in the way they lived their lives or what life had presented them, but they had the same type of philosophy.

33:47Yes. It's really interesting, right? So we are not our outside situations. We are how we choose to respond to our outside situations. And when I, I used to think that way a lot, and I used to kind of daydream. Sometimes I get teased about it. And then I realized this is one of the things that's going to keep me sober. Because this is, I know this to be true. Like I have that knowing whether I'm right or wrong. I know for myself, this type of, you know, this type of philosophy is going to help me in times where I cannot see straight. And in times where I'm having a really rough time, because, you know, I look at that situation that happened to me in the hospital, boy, going into the hospital, I was like, this is the worst thing that's ever happened to me ever.

34:26And it's going to affect a lot of people I work with. They're going to be jobless. They're going to be, you know, and I was like, whatever. I get out and I'm almost eight years sober now, God willing. And I think that was by far the best thing that has ever happened to me. So I learned a lot from that. So this is this ties into a higher power thing is like, I really don't know what's good or bad. And I'm holding up air quotes here because I really don't. Yes. You know, something can be, you know, we're not dumb. We can realize when we're like, oh, you know, like I broke my shoulder. That friggin hurts.

34:56That that really sucks. But that could lead to something that, you know, really wonderful. And this has put me stoicism and my sobriety and the way my life has gone over the last few years, which is not like I thought it would kind of in. I'm not even going to say in the worst way because I don't believe that now. Yeah. But it has positioned me in a way. And I'm now in a place where I can be, I think, a lot more useful to a lot more people. I think when people hear that, it's like it's not good or bad. You go to this sort of moral place. It's more like it's not positive or negative. It just is.

35:33And then you get to decide. By the way, time will tell. Yes. Whether it was positive or negative. Yeah. Just show up. Yeah. Just show up. Put one foot in front of the other and be curious. That's something that's helped me a lot. When I fall into judgment of anyone other than myself, right? I go, no, no, no, wait a second. I'm actually going to be curious. I want to see how this plays out. I want to see how it plays out to lose my home and to lose most of my possessions. And I want to see how it plays out that, you know, I can't seem to get an acting job for the last however long, right? Like, I'm curious, actually.

36:04Like, I had resentments there. And I was like, no, actually, this is something that is out of my control. I do what I can. and the chips are going to fall how they fall, it's how I respond to what's going on here. And I thought, you know what? I have pigeoned myself into this like little narrow lane over here going, you know, you're a super poor kid from Texas that was a high school wrestler that like never had a date in her life. Like just was like awkward, horrible home life, lots of sexual abuse, lots of just the crap, right? And I list those things too when I talk to newcomers, people that are newly sober, because I say, that's not why I'm an alcoholic.

36:43I know a lot of people that went through a lot worse and they aren't alcoholics. I said, that was my excuse. And I was like, that is me not taking accountability for who I am right now. And there's a quote that I actually had tattooed on my body because I thought it was cool back in the day. I think it still is. But it's, I'm not what happened to me. I'm what I choose to become, which is a Carl Jung quote. And for me, that is it. That is it. So I looked at my life and I said, now you, you're trying to do this acting thing still. Were you that happy when you're doing it? And the answer is like, yeah, sometimes.

37:14I mean, Thor was cool. I got to wear a cape and, you know, had a sword and all kinds of fun stuff. There were a lot of things that I loved about being an actress and maybe I will continue to do it. I really don't know. But the freedom of letting go of the mask that I have not intentionally created, but that I notice and I'm aware of that I've created, holy shit, that kind of freedom of just like, so what? Like I can live on two, there's a spectrum of life, right? I am literally on both far ends of the spectrum. I live in a studio apartment, very little possessions, in luckily though Manhattan, so that's bougie in of itself.

37:53But like I went from having many more material things, right? To not a lot now, I'm the happiest I've ever been. I also just recently went to an event as Susan Rockefeller's guest. And it was an event honoring Sofia Coppola. Chanel sponsored it. And I had a moment where I stood on that red carpet, people asking me for autographs. And I thought, you know, I just laughed and I was like, got it. I can be anything I want. I can do anything I want. You can feel more than one thing at a time. Anything is possible. Be curious. Open your tunnel vision. Look at it all from every perspective that you can.

38:27I want to know what I can know to make me the most useful for someone else. And the thing about fear that I've learned, because I experienced a really traumatic flight in 2012. And now it didn't stop me from hanging outside of a chopper on Blindspot. So that talk about screws being loose. But I was nervous to fly here yesterday because I hadn't flown in a while. And I thought, when have you ever been absent of fear? And I went through the obvious, like, oh, when, you know, I'm in a, you know, a room with other alcoholics. Then I said, no, you know, I'm never afraid when I'm being useful. And I'm never afraid when I'm being of service.

39:03Like, I actually don't, because I'm not thinking about myself when I'm being useful or being a service. I'm not up here. So I got on that plane. I said, I'm going to be as useful as possible. If somebody needs help putting up a bag, I'm going to do it. If somebody wants to chat, I'll do it. If somebody wants me to, I was cleaning up shit on the plane. I was talking, I had the best time. Sure. It gets you out of your head. Oh my God. Yeah. And then I get in taxi here in Austin and I meet a fella that's from Morocco and I had spent time in Morocco and we were talking about Harsha, which is this great bread.

39:30And then I go into my hotel and there's this wonderful waiter that I sat and chatted with named Josh, who is working to be a therapist, who told me about Barton Springs, which I'm going to go swim, hopefully not drown. And I thought none of this is possible if I am in a state of fear. Right. So already I use that as an example of look how open and big your life just got in 24 hours. What's interesting, the curiosity thing, because like artistically we understand that stuff has to happen to move the movie or the TV show or the book forward. I think it was the Dalai Lama. Someone asked the Dalai Lama like about, you know, why is there evil?

40:08Why do they exist in the world? And he said to thicken the plot. And you go, oh yeah, like if it was simple, if nothing happened, if it always went, the way we wanted it to go, it would be incredibly boring. And also all the good stuff that comes from those moments, like you need the crisis in the second act so then there can be a third act. And then so we understand that creatively. We maybe even understand that historically, or we see it in other people's lives. And then in our life, we're like, no, no, no, I got to keep it on track at all times. I can't afford this to happen. I don't want that to happen.

40:44And by the way, I'm going to torture myself with anxiety day to day as if that somehow keeps it all together. Because if it happens, it'll be the worst thing that ever happens as opposed to a plot device or a way of moving the character. Not just forward, but like to where it has to go. Right. I've always thought of adversity as being the greatest catalyst. Yeah. It's not easy to say when you're in the middle of a shitstorm. Sure. It's just not, you know. That doesn't mean it's fun. Doesn't mean it's fun, but if you're able to sit with yourself, perhaps there's people that you admire that you take some knowledge from.

41:20And look at it on a piece of paper. Every time you look at someone's story, I think of Viktor Frankl, you look at all these stories and you go, it's the same. It's the same. There has to be adversity in one's life or you will, like, what's the point of life? Yeah. You know, perhaps that's the point of the afterlife. We don't have any of that shit. I have no idea. Yeah. But there's a point to I'd rather think that that I have a purpose here on this planet than just being a random piece of flesh walking around. I just for me, it just makes me happier. So that works for me and it may not work for everybody.

41:55But what I've started doing is so, again, you know, I'd pigeon myself into being just an actress. I decided I'd like to write. So I started writing. Now, I didn't call myself a writer because I thought, no, because, you know, who's a writer? And I start listing, you know, all these people, James Fry, all these, you know, whatever. And do you know James? I know of him. I just listened to his podcast with Rich Roll, who I, I have to say Rich Roll, I'm a fan. Like I've never met him, but that guy has a level of humility and grace that I think is a really great thing for a lot of men, also women, but men to see, you know, not to mention his physical accomplishments.

42:31I mean, part of why I'm swimming and I'm going to compete is just to be like, hey, Rich Roll, I did it. So again, I'm looking at people I respect and I'm going, what do they do? Like what in my life kind of could go with that? Like, where can I draw inspiration? Like who's to say I can't write? Me. That's exactly who has been saying it. I had a tough upbringing where looking back now, realize I just I did not have the strength to apply myself in school other than sports. And the reason I did sports is wrestling specifically is I needed a place for the rage to go. And I grew very tall at a very young age.

43:06So, you know, I was taller than every opponent in my weight class. So I won almost every time I would sprawl and do the half. And then that was that. I loved the competition side, but I hated hurting somebody. It was not my nature. And I learned about myself then. You know, I said, okay, I wonder when this is ever going to be useful. Cut to, I do a bunch of action stuff. And I was like, oh, good. This is good. This is fake hurting people. This is great. But I look back on my life and say, well, there are a lot of things I wanted to be as a kid. But I was like, not possible for you. You're the poor kid in the rich school.

43:34You're the, you know, started your life in a trailer, single mother. Your dad is nowhere. Who knows where he is? Didn't love you. You know, you were a punching bag for nine years. You were this, this, and this. And a lot of things that people wouldn't guess by my exterior. Again, pun intended, don't judge a book by its cover. But think about, I do think about this, and I look across the table at you and I say, both of us have survived 100 % of what has happened to us. Yeah, sure. 100%, or we wouldn't be sitting here. Also, you come from people that survived shit, or you wouldn't be here. Or I wouldn't be here.

44:07And so you think of that track, that's a pretty good track record. And I think in a non-self-serving way and the worst way, right? I think we should give ourselves some love for that. It's not easy. Life is hard. And the thing is, my main mission this day forward is to make sure that every person I meet, and I really believe this is why I'm here, because I feel quiet about it in a way. But I want to make sure that every person I meet knows that they matter. That is something that I did not believe when I was a kid. Yeah. And so I am becoming the thing, the person that I wish I could have had when I was little.

44:46And a lot of my friends would say the same thing. And is that like, this is what I try to do and everything I do. I just like, how do you make a living doing that? I don't want to charge anybody for that. You know, like, I just want to sit with people and ask them how they're doing. And, you know, because I think of my story and I'm going, I'm just one person with this story. Like, what about your story? And, you know, Claire's story and, you know, it's crazy. to me to think like how layered all of us are. And another thing is like, I love the idea of viewing myself as a kaleidoscope. I'm a lot of different stuff.

45:20I'm an actress. I'm a, you know, I was a wrestler. I like to write. I'm going to really try hard to swim outdoors later today and not die. There's a lot of lifeguards at Spartan Spring. This is good. I needed to hear that. I was thinking to myself, it's on my agent Chaz to save my life and I might drown him in the process and then he's got a family and my brain will just be like, maybe you shouldn't go. But it's just like you can be all these wonderful things that you are and you don't have to just stick to one thing. And you also don't have to be what you think others want you to be. Really what others think is not your business because you will never know.

45:54You will actually never know truly what someone thinks about you 100%. It's not possible. You're not in their brain. Well, mostly they're not thinking about you at all. A hundred percent. I have learned this over and over. It's actually one of those things where I was a little nervous coming here and I had to remember it's like, hey, you're feeling this way. You are choosing to go on these thoughts of, oh, he's so much more well-read in Stoicism. You know, he's so much obviously like more versed, clearly as I say it, you're better versed in Stoicism. And I thought, what am I going to bring to the table?

46:25It's like, hold on, just bring yourself and learn something. So you said you found stoicism in recovery. Did someone give you one of the books or do you remember how you came to it? Yeah. Oh, but how? How did you find it? So I remember some, I cannot, and I remember this, but I don't remember who it was. Somebody that is a recovering addict was talking about Marcus Aurelius. And I was like, oh, yeah, I used to read a lot of that when I was younger and sort of praying for the relief of desire. I mean, Epictetus, I think, is more popular in the recovery community because he's so much about like some stuff is up to you, some stuff is not.

46:59Correct. Epictetus is basically the serenity prayer 2 ,000 years before the serenity prayer. I literally just had this conversation two days ago with a friend of mine. So he was like, I don't know much about stoicism. And he like Googled it and he said, oh, it's basically the serenity prayer. I said, I know who you're looking at. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And the idea of like, are you going to pray for this thing to magically go away? Or are you going to pray to have the strength to deal with this thing? Yes. Because one and praise and I think the operative word there, it's like, are you going to hope to be spared or are you going to hope to be strong enough to deal with it?

47:33Like one is a much more resilient sort of up to you thing to think about. And the other is just like hoping you get lucky. More of a victim mentality. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. For me, it's about accountability and taking responsibility, like being responsible for myself. So, you know, I'm not going to pray that I, you know, get a big job in a month or get income or do this or whatever. I'm going to pray that I stay of sound mind and that I stay useful to others and that I am blessed with the strength to persevere. Yes. And that, to me, oh, I feel so much better about myself. You know, I feel like that's manageable.

48:09That other stuff is out of my control. Right. You know. Yes. One is a lot bigger target. Yes. Yeah. And like you just think about people just sort of like how narrow their path is to success. They need this to happen and this to happen and this to happen and this to happen as opposed to like I'm sort of good with whatever. Like, I think the word that is associated with stoicism is indifference. And so that seems like like you don't give a shit. It's not apathy. Yeah. But but like I think what they mean by indifferent is like good either way. Yeah. Like I remember I was talking to Shaka Smart, who's a basketball coach, and he was a coach here in Texas and now he's a coach in Wisconsin.

48:53And I was saying, like, do you I was like, do you like warm weather or cold weather? You know, is there very different climates? He said it, and I always think about it. He's like, I'm a dress for the weather guy. And he's basically saying, I don't give a shit because I don't control it. And, you know, I think a lot of people are like, no, no, this is how I need things to be. And that's good so long as you get it and you get in trouble when you don't get it. And life ultimately you realize doesn't care what you care about. No, life has its own terms. It really isn't. You are not the center of the universe.

49:27Yes. Thank God. I think that's really what the fourth step is about. It's not so much like, do you actually have to believe in a big guy in the sky or the gods the way the Stoics did? Or like, does it actually have to be some higher? I think at the core of it, it's primarily coming to terms with the fact that you're not the higher power. Yes, you are not it. And I used to think, then how am I going to get all this done? And I have to be responsible for that. And I remember being told, no, no, no, you're confusing it. Know that you are not it, meaning, can you see it as a weight off your shoulders?

50:00You are not in control of everything. Yeah, it's a relief. I'm like, cool. All I have to focus on is how I respond to whatever is in front of me. And that's it. So really, if I put my focus there and try to, you know, do everything I can with a sense of integrity, a sense of usefulness, a sense of compassion, empathy, all that stuff. I mean, I'm good. I really can't control the weather. I can't control anything. I mean, and so knowing that and I believe that that's the difference. It's like you I had to learn to believe that. And then it's like, oh, cool. There's something else looking after everybody and controlling everybody else and do it or like doing it.

50:35Like I don't have to, you know, try to stand in front of the ocean and stop a wave. You're not going to be able to do it. Right. And even once you believe it, it's still the day to day and maybe even like hour by hour and minute by minute reminder. Because you catch yourself resuming the role of being the higher power or the center of the universe all the time. You're like, well, no, no, I need this plane to be on time or I need this package to come in or I need this person to be elected. You know, like you need it to be a certain way to be good, to be happy, to be safe, to whatever it is. And then you're just like, wait, like how often historically have I gotten my way?

51:12Like not that often. And you're fine. You figure it out. And in fact, you look back and you go, hey, most of the time, the things I'm most proud of are like how I responded when it didn't go my way. Yeah. There's a great sense of empowerment that you can get from that knowing that if you take things one step at a time as they come, you can get through anything. Yeah.

51:47A lot of people ask me, I work with a lot of women in recovery, and I'll get asked, well, I don't understand how to do that. You know, like, it's easier said than done. You know, you get, you've had, you know, this amount of time. I'm thinking, I don't got a lot of time sober. Like, yours is not a ton of time. But when I'm asked that, they're like, how do you do it then? And then you're kind of like, oh, shit, I got to, okay. I go back to, I stay curious. I look at my life as one big fat experiment. I didn't know how that flight was going to go, if there was going to be, you know, but I was like, I'm curious.

52:15I'm curious about the people I'm sitting next to. I'm curious, you know, I was talking with this fellow next to me, Anders from Sweden, and I was drinking a club soda at the same time and he made me laugh and it came out my nose and I was like, couldn't have predicted that to happen, you know, but then it's like, okay, how do I respond to that? I used to feel embarrassed, right? I laughed harder and more came out of my nose. It was just like, there's a lightness of being when, for me, when I stay curious rather than dictative. Like this has to happen so I can do this and that. It's like, boy, left to my own devices.

52:49Like I clearly am not the best judge of what should happen and what shouldn't happen. So I'm really curious to let something outside of myself, something bigger than me lead, like steer the ship. That's an interesting way to think about it, right? Part of accepting powerlessness and also the higher power thing. probably the reason that's so important in recovery is like you don't make good choices that's why you're here like if it was working you wouldn't be here and if you were well qualified to be the driver of the universe you wouldn't have blown up your life right yeah a hundred percent i mean like learning that to to not trust like sometimes we have to learn to trust our instincts and then there's this other part of it where you're like no my instincts are fucking stupid I mean, you learn that when you train like in any kind of combat sport.

53:39You're like, whatever you think you're good at, then when you actually you're like, no, no, no. This is like your instincts are what make you, you know, you go like this or you do the thing. And that's like the most vulnerable thing you can do. Your instincts suck. You have to practice this stuff. It is not natural for most people. And alcoholics and addicts that are in recovery, we're so much luckier. We are because we literally get taught this stuff from day one. and we get to see it in real time. And, you know, I find the 12 steps incredibly helpful. And it's they're almost like this algorithm I can plug my life into and it spits out a pretty solid suggestion.

54:18You know, it's up to me whether I take that suggestion. But a lot of us that are sober and I guess I could I should just speak for myself is that I have been incredibly humbled by my recovery, by life, by people around me. And so I find that strange. I don't know if easier is the word, but I do find that I have easier access to that mentality. Yeah. Well, people will go like, oh, I'm going to trust my gut. But it's like, have you actually done the work to earn that trust? People are like, oh, I'm intuitive. And it's like, where's the evidence that you have good intuition, you know? And so like part of, I think, whether it's 12 step or philosophy or religion, what they are is like, they're not perfect, But it is tried and tested over thousands of years that like you trust this thing.

55:10Override your instincts and your impulses because like this is this is a better framework or an algorithm because your algorithm is biased. It's prejudiced. It's not sufficiently. It's all these other things. And you have to have that sort of leap of faith of the trust in the. Yeah, this is actually this is based on more than just me, who, by the way, hasn't been here that long. Right. Correct. Or actually been through anything that's like the most serious thing that you've been through. I mean, every person is not the most serious thing that people have been through. Correct. Like it's only been tested to a certain amount of pressure.

55:47And other people have been through more and worse, more times. And like, you know, you think you'd want to avail yourself of like that wisdom. I read somewhere that you read like read a Stoic passage every day. Okay, I do. I actually brought my daily Stoic book because whether you like it or not, you're going to sign it. And so I used to have meditations and I would read that and I would, you know, sometimes I don't have a ton of time to sit and meditate on it. So what I love that you've done is you've brought this ancient philosophy and you have made it so much more digestible for the modern person.

56:21These teachings, honestly, they were popular at some points in history, right? Like repeatedly. But in all honesty, when I mentioned Stoicism, a lot of people are like, what's that? Like you're stoic, like you're strong, you stand up tall and you're like, not quite. And so when I start to talk about it, they're always like, wow, I mean, yeah, I've thought that way or I felt that way. And so I recommend your book because I say, look, not only are you just getting Marcus Aurelius, you're getting Epictetus, you're getting Seneca, you're getting all these different avenues of stoicism, of the philosophy, and you're getting somebody who is alive right now that's putting it out there in real time.

56:55so that if you read a text and you're like, hmm, I'm not quite sure what that means, it's like, you know what? Here's an interpretation at the bottom of the page. Yeah. Does that give you something to think about? And so what I do is every morning I wake up, this is part of my morning routine to keep my head screwed on straight. I wake up, I write a gratitude list that's half a page. And it can be silly things. It can be something grand. I just say, look, it's again, the whole spectrum, right? I have a lot to be grateful for. And it puts my mind in a state of focus on what's working, like what's going good, you know, because there's a lot of stuff.

57:31I mean, you can have something bad happen in your life and then that's all you see. And it's like, hold on, two things can be happening at the same time and even more. So I do that. Actually, wrong. Right before I do the gratitude list, I read a passage from The Daily Stoic. Oh, wow. And then I take that and I think about it and I say, hmm, I'm going to carry that with me today and I'm going to apply the lesson. and and and I catch sometimes I'll take a screen grab on my phone if it's a little longer because I want to read it again yeah and so then I write the gratitude list then I have these little intention cards that I found that I've had for like 15 years or something and I'll just pull a random card and also carry that intention and then I start my day and I I just I feel grounded because I feel very aligned with this philosophy.

58:18And look, yes, as a woman saying this, you know, I haven't encountered many female Stoics. I have encountered a lot of women that I think already sort of have this philosophy within them that don't realize that it matches Stoicism. But I can't say that the Stoics treated women very well. You know, there's a lot of history in there that's a little dodgy, but it's a sign of the times and whatnot. And I'm sure there were female Stoics. They just weren't recorded as often because they couldn't be. Well, I mean, this is a world where like all the women in your line of the family would just have the same name.

58:51So it's like. Yes. Yeah. That's true. Julius Caesar, Julius Caesar, Julius Caesar. You know, it's just like how it would go. So, yeah, we don't have great records. But not to say that that can't, you know, you doing what you're doing. It's like this is part of the legacy. And this is how I see it. just coming from my perspective is like you are taking something that is so profound that I have found that helps me in my daily life that has helped give me a sense of peace that I have trouble reaching on my own. You've taken it, made it accessible, and that's part of your legacy. Well, that's very nice.

59:26You're talking about being a service. Someone did that for me, and I'm just sort of paying that forward. That's what sort of gets me going. Is it green? Is that who you're talking about? You want to know who introduced me to stoicism? Dr. Drew. Oh, I knew that. I remember hearing about that. It was a very random set of circumstances. But see, perfect, got you to pay attention. Somebody gives you the book and then, I mean, you can give someone the tools and then do, you know, it's ultimately on them to read it or apply it or do what they are going to do with it. But yeah, I found this thing. It did something for me.

59:55And then you're sort of, I feel like life is about paying it forward. I agree. I love that philosophy. So how do you feel now knowing, I mean, again, and this isn't from an egoic perspective, it's like, do you feel like you are very much in line and aligned with why you were put on this planet? Yeah, I mean, I feel like this is what I'm meant to do. In a way, the success of it complicates it because there's just a lot of people involved. And I don't just mean there's like a lot of there's like a big team, which there is. It's not just me. But I mean, there's just like a lot of people involved with me and the thing that I would also quietly be spending time with.

1:00:33Yeah. Anyway, like as helpful as it's been to me and as much as I try to apply to my life, my personal application of it is a constant struggle like it is for everyone. But there's also just like this is like the thing that's creatively and artistically fulfilling to me. But then it involves lots of people. Does that make sense? It's like, that's the weirder part. But would you say that that might be how you know that it is your purpose, is that you would be doing it without the notoriety as well? I think so. Yeah. So it's naturally in you. It's something that you... And then it's also like what I feel like, I think Stoicism is a philosophy that I'm lit up by, but then writing is the profession that I'm lit up by.

1:01:15And they just happen to have merged. And so that's a weird... Do you know what I mean? I mean, if I was like personally into stoic philosophy and then I wrote, you know, like murder mystery, murder mysteries or, you know, historical fiction or whatever, it would be there would be a separate there'd be like a church and state there. But there isn't. So it's it's a little it can be a little weird. I actually find that to be very similar to Marcus Aurelius. Yeah, maybe. In the sense that he did this thing as a way to help himself stay grounded and help him rule in the best way that he saw fit. So it's kind of one of those things where he was constantly humbled every day by these two things that were intersecting quite often.

1:01:58Well, I think it's like if you had asked him at 20 what he wanted to do with his life, he would have said, I want to be a philosopher. Right. And then he gets sort of selected or drafted into being the emperor. And I think what I would make up, and if I was doing it in fiction, I would show him as being quite torn by this. And only later in life, after a lot of struggle and resistance, does he realize that they're the same thing. And that actually he was uniquely suited to be a king who was a philosopher as opposed to a philosopher who had opinions about how a king should be. Sure. But I think that's common is like we think our job or our path or what we were chosen for is this.

1:02:40And it's actually this. And it's only an understanding that they're much more similar, that eventually they converge, that we're sort of really doing what we're supposed to be doing. Yeah, I think that's a big relief in life. Yeah. When you stop trying to fight, you're like, no, no, I don't want that thing. I want this thing. And you realize actually, in some ways, this thing is what's actually going to allow you to do that thing. Yeah, like facilitates it, it preps it. And again, like I see that with Epictetus as well. You know, you're looking at this guy and you're just like, God, he's like the, I mean, talk about like a shitty deck of cards.

1:03:15Yes. But he didn't let it stop him from writing what he, you know, wrote down. And that sense of like going, these are the lessons I'm learning in also weird parallel to Marcus Aurelius. One is dealt a shittier objectively deck of cards. Yes, objectively. But like neither of them is dealt the hand they would have chosen. And that's what they share in common. And that's where the meditations come from. Yes. That is where this philosophy comes from. I don't think it would have been possible without that two halves of a whole dueling situation that they were both put in. That, of course, then helps me where I'm at in my life and will continue to help me to keep that perspective of like, hmm.

1:03:57Yeah, you don't know. I don't know. That goes to the curiosity. You think your job is X, but the world is telling you, the world's over here trying to hire you for Y. Yes. And you're like, well, maybe I, instead of fighting it, I'll see if that's actually what I'm supposed to do. What have I got to lose? Like, why not? Like, I think society has given us a template of what we feel because we've seen it. And a lot of people know, most of them are miserable. But we go, oh, everybody else has said it's this. So I guess they're right. And it's like, oh, no. Well, how do you feel? Yeah. You know, what do you feel to be true?

1:04:33And I think we all have it in us. We all have that inner knowing. And it's just our external world and the people in it. We've allowed them to consciously or unconsciously take us away from our inner knowing. And things like this, meditations, you know, stoicism in general has helped me get in touch with my inner knowing that I felt or that I feel now has always been there. And I just it's always been accessible. Yeah. And I think there I do hear from a lot of people in recovery. Stoicism does seem to have made its way. I think there's a couple of sort of of the original guys that had quoted the Stoics here or there.

1:05:11So I think they were even familiar with it like 100 years ago. It feels that way when I read some of that literature back from like the 30s and 40s. I kind of go, oh, this is familiar, you know, maybe less eloquently written, but still I can see the parallels. And again, that's that version of me that that side of me that's always trying to look for what's working. Yeah. Like what, you know, what can I identify with? I'm sick of looking at what makes me different. Yes. You know, I find that to be a waste of time for me personally. Right. So, yeah. Are you going to sign my book? Yeah, of course.

1:05:40You want to go check out some books? Yeah, I would love to.

1:05:48Thanks so much for listening. If you could rate this podcast and leave a review on iTunes, that would mean so much to us and it would really help the show. We appreciate it and I'll see you next episode.

1:06:13Thank you.