Jason Singer Of Michigander On The Reality Of Being A Rock Star

0:00My family owns a 2023 Toyota 4Runner and honestly it's my favorite vehicle I've ever owned. Around town, it's smooth and reliable, but where it really shines is on our trips into the backcountry. We've taken it on backpacking adventures to Colorado and New Mexico, loaded it up with gear, and never had to think twice about whether it could handle the terrain. That's what Toyota Trucks are built for. Off-road confidence, rugged durability, and the freedom to explore. Toyota has a long history with the outdoor community, and they're committed to helping more people get out there and experience what nature has to offer.

0:29From remote trails to scenic byways, Toyota Trucks empowers you to take the detour, roam freely, and discover places that still feel wild and untouched. And they're not just making great trucks, they're working to expand access to adventure so more people can connect with the outdoors and pass that passion on to the next generation. Discover your uncharted territory. Learn more at toyota.com slash trucks slash adventure dash detours. That's toyota.com slash trucks slash adventure dash detours. You hear that? That's not just a Toyota truck. That's the sound of no crowds. No alerts. No distractions.

1:11And no telling what you'll find next. You know, like a detour. So why would you ever take a tour when you could take a detour? Toyota trucks.

1:32Welcome to the Daily Stoic Podcast, where each weekday we bring you a meditation inspired by the ancient Stoics, a short passage of ancient wisdom designed to help you find strength and insight here in everyday life. And on Wednesdays, we talk to some of our fellow students of ancient philosophy, well-known and obscure, fascinating and powerful. With them, we discuss the strategies and habits that have helped them become who they are and also to find peace and wisdom in their actual lives. But first, we've got a quick message from one of our sponsors.

2:20Hey, it's Ryan Holiday. Welcome to another episode of the Daily Stoic Podcast, one of my favorite radio stations here in Austin is 97.1. That's ACL Radio. And I've gotten to know Andy Langer there pretty well. He interviewed me for the Texas Monthly Podcast, but he's basically like Austin's DJ. And I have found so much good music through this guy. He actually came out and we had dinner the other night here at Storehouse, which is across from the Painted Porch in Bastrop. I said before that I listen to music when I write. And if you got the pre-order bonuses for Discipline or Courage, you probably heard of this band, Michigander, who I quite enjoy.

3:05I like his song Let Down. I like Better. He has a song called Reds that I really like. Just an awesome musician that I think more people should know. And as we talk about in today's episode, he has ridden a hard road recently. And I was just someone I was very much looking forward to having on the podcast. And if you wonder why my voice is a little scratchy in this episode, well, we talk about that at the beginning because I was recording the Daily Dad audiobook. So I selfishly wanted to ask him some advice on vocal strength. Anyways, you can go to michiganderband.com for tour dates. You can follow at MichiganderBand on Instagram, YouTube, and Twitter, and you can stream all his stuff on Shopify.

3:51If you want to support an artist, the best thing you can usually do is buy merch from them. That's where there are the fewest people coming between them and the money. And it's always a great way to support artists. Here is my conversation with Jason Singer of Michigander. And thanks to my friend, Andy Langer, for bringing him to my attention. And I think you're going to thank me for putting this on your playlist as well.

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5:22You probably heard the headlines about all the different cuts to foreign aid and food benefits. This is having a profound impact on the world's poorest people and the world's poorest communities. But, you know, just hearing about that, that's not what stoicism is about. Stoicism is, to me, what you're going to do about it. And that's where GiveWell comes in. GiveWell is trusted by tens of thousands of donors each year because they provide free and independent research that helps you understand how to have a big impact. GiveWell has spent the last 18 years researching global health and poverty alleviation, and they direct funding to the highest impact opportunities.

6:01Over 150 ,000 donors have already trusted GiveWell to give more than two and a half billion dollars over the last several years. And research suggests that these donations will save over 300 ,000 lives. I myself am one of those donors. I donate to GiveWell every year. It means a lot to me. And you can find all their research and recommendations on their site for free. And thanks to the donors that sponsor this research, GiveWell doesn't take a cut from your tax-deductible donation to their recommended funds. And if this is your first gift through GiveWell, you can have your donation matched up to$100 before the end of the year, or as long as matching funds last.

6:36To claim your match, go to givewell.org and pick Daily Stoic from the drop-down menu under podcast. That's how they know that you heard about GiveWell from The Daily Stoic and you'll get your donation matched. That's givewell.org, code The Daily Stoic to donate or find out more.

6:55I need some advice. So I'm in the middle of recording the audio book for my next book. I'm doing this parenting book, The Daily Dad. So I'm having to record the audio book. It's like my, I don't know how many audio books I've done, but a lot. But every single time I'm like wrecked after it's, it's like six or seven. So let's say it's between six and 10 hours of audio, typically like on an audio book. How long does it take to record? You do it over like four or five days, like a bunch of different sessions. Usually you can do like maybe an hour or two hours, but I'm like wrecked. It sounds like I have a cold after my voice is terrible.

7:29How do you protect your voice? Like what's your, what's your secret? Well, I think the biggest thing is to warm up. I mean, as a musician, I have to always be warming up. So I have a vocal coach, and she gave me this metal straw. Yeah. And so you do like in water. Oh. And it's like a workout for your vocals. And then there's like a little app that Andy Hall sent me. and he said get this app and it's like seven minute vocal warm-up and it's kind of expensive yeah it's 99 cents okay but you get this app and it um it's awesome so is that is that your sort of secret like when you're on when you're on tour you're performing a bunch of nights in a row or south by you must have done like three or four shows in a single day yeah does that just wreck your voice well yeah so you warm up i'm trying to warm up twice a day and i also got this little um like nebulizer.

8:30I saw Brandon Flowers using it, so then I had to get it. It's like a little mister. So you put this little liquid in and then you just take seven minutes and it lasts for like seven or eight minutes and you just breathe it in and out like a humidifier, but it actually affects the vocal cords. It's like a vape for your vocal cords or something? Yeah, it's a vape essentially, but it's like a healthy vape of sorts, I think. Yeah, but it's pretty cool. That is interesting. I think it's like, I think people who don't do, who just sort of do regular stuff, you forget that like every single profession has certain like wears and tears on it.

9:10And the people who do it for a long time have to figure out how to compensate for that, train for that, how to avoid burnout and repetitive injuries from that thing. and voice, like as a writer, you don't think, well, I better have a strong voice, right? You think of voice metaphorically, not physically. And now that I do like, so this morning I was recording, uh, I did the month of February of the book. And then I, this is my second hour of podcast. And then I'm like, shit, I wouldn't, I wouldn't talk. I wouldn't talk for three consecutive hours in the course of a, a, or a cumulatively over a week.

9:45I don't think like, It's just not what I do. It's very important to take care of, at least from what I do. Probably a little less for just talking. But I didn't really notice it until last summer. We were playing some shows, and then I was out in – we played some festival, and it was a little dusty. And then after the show, I was totally screwed for the whole week of shows. And after that week, I was like, I should go to vocal warm-up and get a coach. And so I did like three sessions with this coach and she like changed, she changed my views on stuff. Because like, think about this. If you spill water on the floor, right?

10:20Yeah. The water is going to evaporate in like a minute, a couple minutes, you know, like it'll be like a reasonable amount of water. So think about that with your vocal cords. Like it's going to be gone pretty quickly. So what some people do is they take a shot of olive oil. If you spill oil on the floor, it's going to hydrate and be there for a while. So if they just take like cooking oil, like olive oil, and they do that. And like John Legend and I think Adele and Aretha Franklin, they all have like – they want a rotisserie chicken. They want Lay's potato chips because the grease like gets you.

10:58Like that lasts a while. So that's what the – and like I'm always drinking tea, but like – Yes. I do throat coat. That's the only tea I like. That's what I do, but there's this stuff called Winter Wake Up from Trader Joe's. Okay. Big fan, but it's only at the wintertime, so we stock up on it for the whole year. I did this book a couple years ago with Chris Bosh, the NBA player, and he was telling me this story where they were all on the team plane after the game, after some game, and they're all playing cards or gambling or whatever. And then LeBron James gets down in the aisle of the plane and he starts doing yoga.

11:34This is like 10 plus, this is like a long time ago. Obviously yoga is popular, but before yoga was as culturally accepted, especially in the NBA. And they're all like laughing at him and busting his balls. Like, what are you doing? You know, you can imagine the things that they're saying about this basketball player doing yoga in the aisle of the plane. And he was like, you know, flash forward to today. None of us are in the league except for LeBron James. Right. LeBron's thing was he would stretch multiple times on the plane after every game, you know, mobility, flexibility, being a big, big part of what he thought went into longevity.

12:18Right. Right. And and I'm fascinated with like these little things that people do that maybe they don't get credit for or think is really stupid or lame, but are actually sort of what real professionalism looks like. Like the decision is take care of your instrument literally and figuratively is like the most important thing. I think that's like post-COVID, like since we've been on the road post-pandemic, it has been all about like, how do we do this better? Like, how do we get seven hours of sleep? How do we take care of ourselves mentally? How do we like, let's just stop eating like just fast food.

12:58Let's get, let's try to go to Chipotle as much as possible. That's like the best option you we have. On the road, yeah. Yeah. And like, let's make sure we're drinking water. Let's keep vitamins like in the van for everybody. And even more so, like this last tour was like – because the last tour we did was last year with Manchester Orchestra. And it was like these are a lot of shows and we're chasing a bus. We've never chased a bus before because we're the opening act, you know? And so – So you have to drive behind them basically? Well, I mean like so they – the thing about what a lot of people don't really know is when you're on a bus, the band will play the show.

13:35And then bus call will be like 2 in the morning. the bus driver sleeps all day and so once the whole venue is packed up and loaded up and ready to go the bus just leaves and you sleep on the bus so you wake up in the next city if you're the opening band i mean that could be 10 hours away so you sleep in the city so like we had to play kansas city one day and the next day we played denver and that's like nine ten hours so we have to do we have to figure out how to get to sleep and figure that out but so you would stay the night in that city and not go on to the next city or i'm sorry they would yeah so like if we would stay in kansas city and the next day we would drive all day to get there in time for sound check so wake up at six or seven in the morning and then drive the whole across like a whole like very far um kind of terrible but that's rock and roll yeah it it's uh no it's you don't like in the NBA also is going to, to not just stretching, but like the NBA was like, Hey, when we book teams on multiple back-to-back games, everyone plays worse.

14:43And like, so the, the number of back-to-back games in the NBA went from, I don't know, 14 a season to three in a season. Right. And they're noticing that injuries go down, playing goes up. And so often, like when you're planning something or working on something, yeah, you're like, how do I get there fastest? How do I make the whole thing as efficient as possible? And often this efficiency is actually at the expense of longevity or sustainability because you're just thinking, yeah, how do we get here point A to point B fastest? Or the first thing that gets cut is sleep or meals. and this is you know economizing in one sense but it's also very expensive in the other sense yeah it just just kind of wears you out really quickly so we're we're even more so now like this is the first tour we're about to go on we leave sunday for five weeks and it's been over a year since we've done a long tour and i've had like a lot of crazy things happen in my life since then so uh now kind of coping with those while i'm about to go like full on into five weeks of in like we're in a van you know we're not like we don't have the bus so we are the road warriors and we and now that we're headlining these shows we have to get there extra early you know because we're the first band in and last band out kind of thing uh so it'll be uh it'll be an adventure but we're taking a lot of steps to try to like make it mentally more doable i think that's the hardest part now more than the like playing the shows and physically and everything yeah i think it's like you know, sort of earlier in your life, you can just gut it out, right?

16:23Like you're, you just, you white knuckle it, you put garbage in your body, you, you always power through, you're sort of, you're subsisting on raw energy, raw enthusiasm, you know, sort of brute strength and, and mostly youth. And then as you get older, you realize that like sort of professionalism is not just like, oh, I wear a suit to work, but professionalism is like, I take care of myself. Like I have good habits. Like these are the things that I don't do anymore. This is the schedule that I keep. And I've certainly been on that journey just like, okay, I've done this thing a lot of times and I've succeeded.

17:01But if the goal is to continue doing that same thing, I'm going to have to make some different decisions. Yeah, it's really tough. But like one of the funniest things is I used to say we want a case of beer and then they would give us like a 30 pack of beer. and now we just say just give us one nice six pack of beer that's all we want sure sure well because if they give you more you'll drink it all if they give you more they'll drink it all and then it just goes like oh we'll just pack it up and keep it for the hotel or something and i'm like we don't we don't need this every night it's like waste of money on the on the venue side we rather just have the cash to like go out and buy chipotle for lunch the next day sure sure yeah Yeah.

17:42So it has been it's been a really rough year for you, right? You sort of got blindsided twice. Yeah. You're you're white. Yeah. So last September, I was out in California shooting a music video slipped in. We were in a place called Angela's Crest. So it's like an hour outside of Los Angeles. No cell service. Beautiful, like wildly beautiful. Like I remember standing out there being like, this is amazing. And then shortly after standing there and looking at everything, I slipped on some brush and I broke my leg and there was no cell service. And I thought I rolled my ankle and I was like trying to get up and it was like, this is not happening.

18:23And so, uh, we're like, what do we do? And I was like, well, let's just go to the hospital, wrap it up. I'll postpone the flight today. We'll shoot the rest tomorrow. Take it easy. Uh, turns out it was broken in three spots I just thought I rolled it um and so then two surgeries later and like two and like it took forever like it was just a long horrible journey being on pain medicines and being like a thousand miles from home or whatever and being kind of alone for most of it and uh not really realizing how traumatic any of it was until like a long time later uh which um was really scary and then something else happened right yeah that's the first thing oh yeah so all of that happens and i'm at home recovering i'm gonna have my little scooter i can't drive really because our we live on like a hill so our cars it's just long story short i can't go i can't move i'm just in the house stuck to the home watching we had to postpone the tour can't like postpone the record everything was like moving quickly and great and feeling awesome and then boom that happens and then when I said things probably can't get any worse they definitely can and they always can yeah and I was at home my wife went to she works at a venue here in town in Nashville and she went to work and I was thinking nothing of it sitting home at this chair right here playing video games with some friends my only social activity during those times and I get a call from a number I don't recognize and ignore it.

19:56And I get a call again from the number and ignore it again. The third time I say, if it's important to leave a message, it turns out it was important. Um, my wife got ran over by a truck while walking to work, uh, like fully run over, like big, big pickup truck, uh, by some kid. Um, and spent like, and I got, and I got a call and the guy was like your wife's been a horrible accident so i called him back and i was like are you okay like what's going on he's like i don't know he's like is she okay he's like i have no idea i was like holy crap who was this person a valet guy from just some restaurant um his name is james shout out james and uh so i like looking at my phone and i'm like i can't drive and i don't I can't hear if I didn't hear from her at all.

20:46And it was crazy. And I like, I'm like, I'm looking at her location and be like, Oh, she's at that hospital. I had to like call a neighbor and be like, Hey man, my wife got ran over. She's in the hospital. I have no idea if she's alive. She's okay. And I'm just like scooting around the house, like stuffing my bag full of anything I might need well I'm gonna be at the hospital for who knows how long and uh like my life is like I'm like just crying because I'm like sure what's going on here like seeing our wedding pictures and being like is she gone and it's like this is like for an hour like having no idea her mom's calling me like face she like all this is happening the guy called her mom too and her mom's like crying on the phone throwing up and I'm like I don't know what's going on I can't do anything um um kind of seemed just fake and like it was not realistic or like it was not happening at all like a dream a terrible dream yeah and i just was sitting on the porch waiting to be picked up i can't do anything just like sitting there crying and being like what do i do hearing no hearing nothing no updates nothing from anybody um just seeing that she was at vanderbilt hospital and that's where I was going and hoping to figure it out.

22:08And, uh, luckily after being there for like five days, she got released. Um, and that was like a whole thing of itself too. Like it was just really hard to, um, just really hard to like be there and then like to be released where we don't have the care of like medical professionals. And now it's your problem. Yeah. So like her family lived with us for like a month and all of this happened back to back and like kind of screws with you big time. Yeah. Yeah. Like when it rains, it pours. There's a Japanese expression, I think when crying stung by B like whatever, whatever the next thing is, life sometimes has a way of dropping that in your lap and it rains just to rub it in.

22:53yeah it's crazy um but yeah that so she was ultimately okay yeah uh months and months later she like she's back to work i mean there's still like lingering effects you know like no taste or smell like that sucks like that might never come back like it's change changes here and there but like um and it was like a traumatic brain injury so she you know like loud noises and crowds are still tough um they're still like pain you know like having a running being run over by a truck and like almost dying kind of will affect you for probably a little while sure but yeah she is uh she's back at work and doing the thing and like we're figuring it out and it's tough yeah she started therapy which she wanted to do anyway but this just propelled her into it.

23:44And it also propelled me into doing therapy, which has been wildly beneficial. Just to help with the sheer emotional overwhelm of it all? Yeah. I mean, there's also like the whole fact of like the job that I do, which is like a musician and a touring musician is already so mentally weird and strange. And so I've always like, I need to go to therapy. I don't really know what I talk about, but I'm going to go do this. And she was like, I'm just, you know, I'm growing up and wanting to change and figure out my life. So maybe I should go to therapy. But then this kind of just propelled us both into it.

24:19And there's a really great organization here called Porter's Call. And they're like strictly work with people in the music business. And so they really understand the lifestyle and what the job entails. And that's been really helpful. and been doing some emdr which uh has like it's like you know when you find something new and then you think everybody else is an idiot for not doing it sure that that is exactly how i feel about this uh and that's been just so awesome for me well therapy is kind of similar to some of the physical stuff we're talking about where you sort of go have i just been raw dogging this the whole time for no fucking reason so stupid like yeah why have i been doing this and uh it's yeah and now like i'm like oh i'm like meditating every day and like you know using like some app to meditate and like that is like the first time i did it i was just like open my eyes and i was like i just sort of like i had like happy tears and i was like crying i was like why am i crying because of this like and i was like maybe because i've just realized how dumb i was to not do this for all these years where I've been so stressed and like constantly on the go and constantly overfilling my cup.

25:35And yeah, it's just funny. Well, you realize like that stuff was finding an outlet before, just not deliberately and safely. So it's like you have that, you have, you know, your hour session and you come out and you're like, I didn't really do anything, but I just feel like a load off. Like I just, I just worked through this and now I'm over it. And then you're like, well, what was it doing with that feeling three months ago? And you're like, I was still vomiting it out. Just not honestly. Like I didn't know that's what I was doing and it wasn't a safe place to do it, but I was still dumping these feelings on someone.

26:14To me, journaling is a similar thing. Like when you don't do it, that feeling, that frustration, that need to explain or articulate or work something through. It's still finding a place. It's just a much less patient appropriate place. Yeah, it is. It's it's so it's very interesting. The more I think about it is I'm like, I'm 30 years old now. And to think like, I should have done this like at least five years ago, I went to therapy as a kid, like in high school for like behavioral, like, you know, my mom made me go kind of thing. And I realized I was just running out the clock for that stuff and just trying to like say whatever I need to say to get it, get out of here.

26:54Sorry, Steve. Uh, but like, I just was like ready to go. And I was like, yeah, I want to do this with my life. I'm feeling good. Thanks man. Bye. Uh, but now it's, uh, now I'm like being like very vulnerable. I mean, as you get older, it's just easier, at least for me and my experience to be more vulnerable. And maybe it's just cause I like, you know, I live on my own. I got this, you know, you got a different life than I had when I was a kid. So I can say a little more. I have a little bit of a platform, so I feel like a need and like a requirement to speak up how I'm feeling and how I'm doing.

27:26So, yeah.

27:31Thanks to Toyota Trucks for sponsoring this episode. When I bought my ranch in 2015 out here in Bastro County, I drove my car about halfway down the dirt road that we live on. Thought this isn't going to work. Stopped, parked it, walked the rest of the way home, borrowed my wife's car. drove into Austin and bought a truck. What I bought was a Toyota Tacoma. And this truck wasn't just transportation getting me to and from my house. It unlocked a whole different style of living for us, not just on the ranch, but in our little Texas towns. There were places I could go now that I couldn't go before, especially out here in the piney forests, through the fields, and on the unpaved roads like the one that I lived in.

28:16We got to go deep into the hill country's wild beauty. We've driven all the way out to East Texas. We've driven it across the country. And by we, I mean not just my wife, but both my kids who I drove home from the hospital in that truck. Toyota trucks are built for those who understand that the best adventures happen when you're willing to veer off course. because you never know when you'll end up on a Toyota adventure detour. And of course, this is stoicism, too, because every detour, every obstacle is an opportunity. But it's helpful if you can handle the difficulty inherent in that. If you've got the resilience and the right companion to make it wherever the road takes you.

28:56Discover your uncharted territory. Learn more at toyota.com slash trucks slash adventure dash detours. You hear that? That's not just a Toyota truck. That's the sound of no crowds. No alerts. No distractions. And no telling what you'll find next. You know, like a detour. So why would you ever take a tour when you could take a detour? Toyota Trucks.

29:38well just imagine imagine who you would be if you were not an artist right you would still have the same emotions the same frustrations the same opinions about the world but you wouldn't have the ability to funnel those emotions productively into art so you you like you think about how blocked up you would be or how inappropriate you would be or how much difficulty you would have processing and dealing. And then I think therapy is just a similar outlet for things that the art is either just not ready for or you are not ready to put into the art. You've got to have those sort of places to do that because otherwise it's your spouse's problem or your colleague's problem.

30:28or the stranger in front of you at line in the grocery store's problem. That is so interesting. That is so bizarre. But yeah, to think about it that way. I've never put it in perspective of being like, what would I be like if I wasn't getting paid to do this? Well, I was thinking about that the other day. I just went through this frustrating work thing, actually a couple of them in a row, and I was really pissed. I felt like I'd been screwed over. I knew it was going to cost me a lot. and I was like, you know what? The silver lining here is like, I'm gonna write three or four daily stoic emails about this that are gonna help other people.

31:04I'm gonna feel better for it. And I'm gonna be able to go, hey, that all really sucked, but look what I have to show for it, right? Like that's the sort of the obstacle is the way is like, hey, this shit happened, but it's material, right? And so because it's material, I emerged better for it. But what if I wasn't an artist? What if I didn't have that approach, right? I wouldn't have the, I wouldn't, it wouldn't so immediately and easily be able to say to myself, yeah, that cost a fortune. Yeah, that was totally unfair and shitty. How could they do this to you? And that would just be the end of that story, right?

31:40If you don't come up with a way to process it and use it, then you're just sitting with it. It's just there on your shoulders. And that's so not good. yeah getting getting it out even there's like sometimes where i write songs about things that like i'll go into like a writing session i'll be this is what i want to write about today this is how i'm feeling and i'll be like okay i'm glad i got that out but that song no one needs to hear that that's like it was like such a petty problem of mine to maybe fixate on and to uh to like write to spend someone's whole day writing a song about like being bummed about someone else being bummed and uh and like yeah it's fun so how did you deal with i i know where you were in your career when all that stuff happened stuff was really starting to go for you you had momentum and then basically the world is like um we're gonna hit pause for several months and you have no say in the matter how did you think about that it was horrifying because i wasn't sure i wasn't sure what was going to happen because there was all this momentum going and all the pieces were at play and everything was rolling on all cylinders and then it was like stop what are we going to do so it was like well we could post since the relationship with the label and management is very good and everybody is a very good team that i was like can i was like i would love to postpone everything can we just put the pause on we have all the music out we have a we had like a holiday song we were going to release like all this stuff and so it's like let's just people will understand people will stick around i think so let's just like postpone everything like eight months from now and everyone's like cool let's do that so we did it and we were like we post these these shows were selling the best they were ever selling for me because you know for so long i've been playing to empty rooms to like nobody and like in some places like sure we go to we go to salt lake city there's nobody there we go to boise there's nobody there we go to seattle there's nobody there and like that's draining but this was the first time we're like wow ticket we've sold more tickets already this far out than we did at the end of the show so what are we going to do about that and my manager like you're gonna you need to like brace yourself you're gonna lose 50 of these and i was like oh my god uh that's horrifying uh luckily we only lost like four across the board uh people like people just like i never felt as much support like those two for those two incidents in my life like there people like just like came out of the woodwork and reached out to me and like people in our community here were just like so supportive and like whatever you need and like it was cool because it was like people i looked up to like people i had no idea had any idea who I was there's like artists and like people are like hey whatever you guys need just let us know we'll get you we'll get what you need like whoa whoa and like all these organizations and everybody just came and helped but like that moment where I was like I have to cancel everything like that was bad enough and then I was stuck at home on top of that and then it was seasonal seasonal saddies uh came piling in um but all all of that at once was just so tough and like i thought like maybe maybe this is gonna end everything sure for me but you know like looking and i think we'll know more you know a year or two from now but like in hindsight like is a i don't like to use this phrase but it's definitely like a blessing in disguise like yeah there's this yeah there's a story i heard about bruce springsteen once uh i guess is the album with uh with born i guess is it born to run anyways um the uh second album you know he thought hey this is when it's going to come out so they put out the first single and then there's some like production delay a label delay anyways the album comes out like 10 or 11 months later than it was supposed to which you know when you believe in momentum and you're like this is my time i've worked on this for so long it's all gotta go this way or it's not gonna work you know he sort of thinks it's a death sentence.

35:54And then what happens is it actually gives the single like 10 extra months of runway. So when the album comes out, it works. Yeah. And it's funny, we had this idea of how it has to go, how it's supposed to go. And in a way that kind of sells us short, right? Like, like it actually, because we're not patient enough, we would never actually say, Hey, you know what? Because it would take so much discipline to go, Hey, you know what? I'm actually just going to let this sit, do what it does for 10 months or six months or eight months. We would never do that because it seems irresponsible and entitled and reckless.

36:31And then the universe comes along and says, I don't care what you think. We're hitting snooze on this for eight months. And then you're like, oh, that was great. That worked out. Actually, there was all this stuff inherent in it that I wouldn't have chose, but it's to my benefit. And it doesn't always work out that way. But I have found in my career, the things that I was, I felt were most urgent that were most like do or die. If it doesn't happen this way, the whole thing's dead in the water. The exact opposite has been, has turned out to be true. And the delays were good for me. Yeah. I was also like looking back.

37:08Okay. So the morning of my accident, I had posted like this long post about like how I'm feeling burned out. And like, I'm, I'm like, don't know where I'm going. And like, I'm frustrated and, but I'm feeling, but I was like, I'm really excited about everything i just want to be honest with everybody i'm feeling really burned out and i hope i make it through this yeah and then i literally had my legs i can help you with that yeah yeah then the next day or like a couple hours later it was like you're done uh so maybe maybe it was all big big master plan uh of um getting me in where i need to be because now it's weird i feel even going through all that crap, which was like easily the darkest and lowest times in my life, like panic attacks and sleep paralysis and never experiencing any of like real serious depression and hardship than I did till that time, you know?

38:00So it's like horrible. But now I feel better. I feel better than ever. Like I feel like mentally I'm in the best state I've ever been in my life in like a healthy way and learning how to like cope healthy with like emotions. I'm also feeling like more in charge of like my trajectory. I'm feeling like more in charge of like my job and my music and my business, quote unquote. And I'm like not glad it happened, but I'm not, I'm not, it didn't like destroy my whole life and it inevitably made me better. Yeah. And if it had destroyed your whole life, if you're like your whole career could be derailed by an eight month delay, how good was it really?

38:45Right? Exactly. You're so fragile that you have to go through your whole life. If I don't say no, if I don't say yes to every single opportunity, it's all going to come to a screeching halt. That's not a position of success. You're a prisoner. Exactly. Yeah, that's true. I did not think of it that way either. I'm just learning so much here today. I remember I was talking to a college basketball coach right at the beginning of the pandemic. We were maybe like two, three months into it. And he was just, he's like, you know, these kids, they've worked their whole life. Like they're about to start their freshman season at this university or that university.

39:21And we're, you know, we're telling them like, hey, there's not going to be summer, you know, training this year. We're going to go straight into the season in the fall or whatever. And he's like, they just can't handle it. And I was like, you got to think about it from their perspective. of three months is like 5 % of their life or, you know, some percent, like it's actually a significant percentage of the total time they have been alive on the planet. So one of the things you get as you get older is you get more comfortable with larger blocks of time, right? You go, hey, like I remember when I had a bad year.

39:54I like my wife and I have been together for 15, 16 years now. It's not like, oh, I remember when we were fighting for a little bit. It's like, There are years in our relationship that were not good, right? Like whole years. So that does give you the ability to then, you have a couple bad days in a row. You're not getting along. You're not like, oh, this thing is toast, right? You have the perspective to go, hey, there are dips and valleys. And as you go, you start to get a longer sense. You have a longer time horizon for what something constitutes. And that is a super valuable perspective that makes you more resilient as you go because you don't sweat every single thing as it's happening because you go, it normally works out.

40:41I'll figure it out. I've been through dips like this before. Have you ever read that book, The Messy Middle or seen that book? It's arguably too long of a book to just tell you the basis of the story and there's this graph in it where it's like you're on this path from here to here. and as you're going up the path and you're going up the hill, you'll have low points still, but you look back and you go, that low point is way higher than my low point when I was in high school. And that's kind of like this image that's just burned in my brain and seeing that as like, I think it's a book mostly meant for business owners and so as someone who kind of has a business, I was like, I should read this.

41:22And it was just very interesting to see, thinking about that And then like what you said, like the whole sense of time as you get older is so warped. Like I can't imagine five years ago knowing what I'll be doing in December. But like at this point in my life, like my whole year is mapped out, which kind of sucks sometimes. Like you see and you go, oh man, by the time that thing I'm really looking forward to happens, like the year's over. And like you see that kind of stuff. stuff but as as I'm getting older I'm realizing I I care so much less about I care so much less about like what like how long things will take and like this new EP that I'm about to put out like that took like that took three years two years something to make like this has been done for over a year and it's just coming you know it's coming out soon and so it's like I've been sitting on this for so long.

42:16And I wouldn't, that would never have flown like, like six years ago. You could never have accepted waiting for a year when you were 17, because that's like a 17th of your life. Right. And, and, and, and when you talk to people who are really older, people who have done a thing for a long time, right? Let's say you talk to someone who's been in the music business their whole life, right? They're like, oh yeah, I remember that trend. And that was a hard time in the industry. And then you kind of like do the math. You're like, that trend was from 1981 to 1996. Like they're talking about like a 15 year trend.

42:52And they're just like, they're riding it out. Like it was, you know, like a bad weekend or whatever. But to them, because they've been doing it for so long, that kind of was a blip. And so the longer you do it, the more you've been through stuff, you go, this is a phase. This I've, I know this feeling like whenever I start a book, right. because I've done so many books now. I know, look, the next several months of this are gonna be really unpleasant. I'm not gonna feel like I'm making progress. I'm not gonna feel like it's fun. I'm not gonna be sure it's actually gonna come together. You know, I'm gonna doubt myself.

43:28I know all those sensations and I know that they are ephemeral and passing and that if I just don't quit, eventually, I don't know exactly when, but I know that eventually you get to the other side. It's like, look, the first time you get a cold, you're like, what is this? Right. You're a kid. You don't even understand. But then you get enough of them. You're like, hey, it lasts three or four days and then you come out fine. Right. And so once you've been through stuff, you are more comfortable going through other stuff because you know the ride. Have you ever had a moment where you were like, you didn't get it done?

44:02And you were like, I need to put this to a side and come back to it. Or maybe it took four or five times as long as you thought. you know because i've had those two where i'm just like sure this i can tell this isn't work like you chase an idea but there's been like a music video where we were chasing this idea and like halfway through we were like this isn't it this isn't landing this won't work and we just were like okay we'll come back to another time yeah knowing when to quit and when to stick is obviously uh the trillion dollar question um and and you never you you don't know the counterfactual You don't know the things that you quit that you should have stuck with.

44:39And the things you stuck with, you know, it's not always clear that had you quit, you might have found something better. Right. But I remember on my last book on Discipline's Destiny, I was sort of in the depths of that place. Like it wasn't coming together. I was tired. Wasn't sure what was next. And I was going through my note cards. I read all my books on these note cards. And I found this note card and I was like, you're going to be, I'd written a note to myself and I don't know when, and I don't know why, but it was something, it said something like, when you go through your note cards, it's not going to feel like there's a book here, but if you keep going through your note cards, the book will emerge.

45:16Just, just follow the process. And it was like this weird message that my past self had sent to my future self. And it was exactly right. Like there wasn't one day where it magically clicked, but it did start to emerge. And like, when you, like the process is the process and everyone has their own little unique takes on it, but basically like starting something and sticking with it until it's done, that's the fucking process of all creative work, right? It's not inspiration. It's not stream of consciousness. It is a day-to-day process that goes and fits and starts. And if you accept that and you hand yourself over to it, the work comes out of the other side.

46:02That is a fact. Yeah. I like when something, I like when something you're working in one direction, at least in music, and like got this idea. And then by the end, it's done. You're like, oh, that's totally, that's totally different than what I initially set out to make. And then you get there and you're like, that's so much better than what I initially wanted to make. That's always the most exciting surprise is like, you still made it, but you proved yourself wrong. But at the same time, you were very right in what you were doing. Well, something struck me about my books. Like I'm in the middle of saying, I'm doing this audio book, right?

46:37So I'm sitting down and reading the entire thing from cover to cover out loud, right? And one of the things that happens when you do that is you're like, I forgot I wrote all of this. The book's 80 ,000 plus words. I don't have them all memorized. I have a vague sense of what's in there, but it's like watching a movie that you've watched before. You're like, oh, I forgot about this little scene here. But you made the scene. And so you have this sort of bumping back into your own work, to your own self. and you realize, oh, that's also how it was created, which is I didn't sit down and have this overarching holistic sense of what I was doing.

47:20What I did have was every day, a sense of what I wanted to do that day or an openness to what would happen that day. And cumulatively that added up to a final product. It's like driving at night, you have the headlights, you only see a little bit ahead of you, but eventually that illuminates all the way from point a to point b yeah and you just have to have that patience and that commitment and that openness and then yeah you you end up being pleasantly surprised by the final outcome you're like where did that come from i don't even remember that and that's a very beautiful thing it's always interesting to go back and like listen to the old music and i go like oh why did i i'm so self-critical i'm like yeah and then sometimes I'll hear something like, man, that still hits like that.

48:08That would do so much better if I released it now. Like I wish I had that song at this point in my career. And, uh, and it's, it's always, uh, it's always fun to go back and listen. Uh, it's also very cringe, but it's, it's at the same time exciting. There, there's a line from Emerson where he's talking about how, when you have an idea for something and then you're like, no, I'm not going to do it. You're scared of it. you're critical of it, you're intimidated by whatever. And then you see someone else do that thing, right? He said, we bump into our own rejected ideas with a kind of alienated majesty.

48:44And that strangeness of like, oh man, I was going to do that, but I chickened out, or I was going to do that, but I doubted myself, or I was going to do that. And I went this other direction instead. that's a really sobering, humbling thing too that I think reminds you to like, just kind of trust yourself, do the thing, see what happens. You can't overthink it and you can't hide from whatever the muse is or the work or the moment is trying to push you towards. Totally, that's good.

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51:48well one of the things that i because i obviously i follow you and i saw when that stuff happened you guys put up this gofundme campaign and you were talking about all the people who reached out to help how was that for you i imagine you're kind of a self-sufficient driven like adult dude was that weird for you to like have all of that out there um yes and no because I used to really struggle with asking for help and then I became very okay with asking it uh over the last couple years and uh I'm one of Brittany's friends one of our friends Amanda put that together and it was like weird to see all the people like people that I knew people that didn't know people that I knew but had no idea that knew who I was kind of like donating and uh and being like oh we're gonna be fine like like i'm always it's also weird because i feel like i heard this npr like story once many years ago about like the worth of a network and like the amount of people you know like that you know in your network is like you may not have a lot of cash and a lot of like real money but like the social capital is like pretty strong and like that and that's always something that's really stuck out with me for like I've always wanted to have this like I've always wanted to like build relationships with people that are genuine but also like I want to be the guy who knows the people like you know I just want to do I want to know like who's the best mechanic and like who's this person in all these places and and know all these people and I just really like genuinely love talking to people and getting to know people and so to see like that kind of unintentionally they come back my way and be so supportive was really cool but it was like hard it was like oh man this is a lot of money like that people are putting up and from all over the world and uh it was crazy to see and I feel really really fortunate that I have those people I'm not someone who's like I'm not taking your help and like if someone venmos me I'm not sending it back you know but like uh it is it is a little tricky sometimes and you feel like it was emotional like seeing a lot of that come through because it was just like my phone was just ding ding ding ding and you're like why?

54:13Why us? Like why did this happen to us? But then at the same time it's like man we have the resources and the people like we have people who have our back and like I told Brady it's like what's the worst thing that's like the worst thing that's going to happen is like one of us dies like that sucks for the other person but like the worst thing that's going to happen is like what we're going to have to like live with someone with one of our parents guest rooms for a little while like we're going to be fine and we really are fine and like that support like really i mean that we would not be i mean we would have to live in a parent's guest room without the help that we got from people there's a there's a story about cyrus the great the persian emperor and and one of his advisors is like, you're spending too much money on these building projects in these foreign provinces, on these plans.

55:04People are coming to you asking for things and you're always helping. He's like, you're going to run out of money. And he says, watch this. And he writes like a series of notes. And he says, I want you to go dispatch all of these notes to the people addressed on the envelope. And so the messenger sends them all out. And then he calls the advisor back to the palace a few months later, and he walks him into this room. And the room is filled with gold. And he says, what is this? And he shows him the note. And the note says, hey, I'm in desperate straits. I need help. And he'd sent this to all the allies, all the people that he had helped, all the people whose life he had made a difference in over the years.

55:44And when he said he needed something, they were there. And it is true. I think we sometimes think, like, I have this, I have to protect what's mine. I got to, you know, pinch every penny. But actually, you know, the expression is your network is your net worth, right? The people you've helped, the relationships you have, that is the real true form of wealth and being sort of isolationist and selfish and, you know, inward looking is actually, you know, it might help your bank balance, but it actually makes you very vulnerable and fragile. And the person who has helped a lot of people is ultimately the most secure and uh you know reliable figures because they they have a huge favor bank to call in they have a you know a bunch of people whose lives they have positively touched yeah it's it it's uh it's really special that's i mean like thinking about it right now like just being like that is crazy that people cared and people continue to care uh It's been really cool.

56:49It is weird though, right? When other people ask for help, we're like, sure, what can I do, right? And then we need help and we're like, I don't want to bother everyone. Everyone's going to judge me. What does it say about me? It says exactly the same thing that it said when somebody else asked you for help and you were genuinely excited and grateful that they gave you the opportunity to do that. that you were like, I can't believe they think this of me, that they came to me with this. And then when the shoe is on the other foot, you're like, oh, I could never. Yeah, it's definitely humbling. Yes.

57:30And it's definitely a journey. But the worst thing people will say is no or ignore it. So that's kind of like where I'm at now. It's like I'm doing this tour and I'm trying to find special guests and all the cities to come do a song. And, you know, I'm hitting up people like No that are like, you know, well-known folks and like that are like heavy hitters bigger than me. And then I'm hitting up just sending some, even those ones are kind of like, do you want to do this? And I've been left unread a lot of times this week, but it's been exciting to see people respond. But like the worst thing they're going to say is, no, it's not the vibe.

58:11It's not for me. And that's fine. to. Do you know about the Ben Franklin effect? No. What's that? So it's this thing that Benjamin Franklin supposedly figures out. There's this guy and he needs, he's this much more powerful, influential guy in, I don't know, some Congress in Philadelphia or something that he needs help with. And he wants to find a way to bring this guy over to his side. So the instinct is like, what can I do for that guy? What does he want? What can I do for him? How can I appeal to his self-interest? Which is, of course, a decent strategy. But what Franklin realizes is that actually the opposite way is much more effective.

58:47And he knows that this guy has this rare book collection that he prizes above all things. So, right, self-interested would be like, hey, I got you this extra rare prized book. Like, look what I did for you. But in fact, what Franklin does is he goes to the guy and he asks him if he can borrow the most valuable book in the collection. and the guy, you know, doesn't really have a reason to say no. And so he loans it to him. But what Franklin finds is that afterwards, this guy and he are connected, like the guy did him a favor, but then somehow feels connected to even indebted to Ben Franklin, right?

59:28And the irony is like, we're afraid to ask for things because we don't want to impose, we don't want to jeopardize the relationship. But in fact, who are we actually closest with? It's the people that we've shared experiences with. So you ask this heavy hitter to come perform with you, they're doing you a favor, kind of, but then also by asking them and then thinking about you and then doing this thing, and then it happens. Now you have this base in this relationship, this shared experience that actually endures. And so it's this weird paradoxical thing where we're afraid to ask for help. We're afraid to solicit or try things with people because we think it'll be a debit from the relationship, but it's actually a deposit.

1:00:15Right. Yeah. That's interesting. It's very, I mean, that's kind of like all of being in the entertainment business is just trying to like get coast you know like cosigns and and trying to figure out like what like these i mean other hand is like there's these people that i meet that are like literally responsible and are so important to my formative years like i would not i got to meet albert hammond jr from the strokes and uh they're one of my all-time favorite bands and we were playing the same festival as them and i saw the black suvs pull up and they get out and i walk up and i go albert and he goes hey and uh i was like hey man like i know this is so weird we have some mutual friends but i just wanted to let you know i would i'm playing this festival this is crazy for me there's no way i would be here if i didn't hear your records like there's no way and he just like stood there and he's like that's so heavy thanks so much and he's like can i give you a hug and he gave me a hug and he's like thank you for telling me that and i was like you were like one of the coolest most influential modern rock guitarists and i just had to tell you i just had to fanboy for a minute and let you know that you're responsible for for this when what's the what's the worst that can happen he's like cool and then walks away like you know what i mean and when you get comfortable with that it it opens you up to opportunities yeah it's all it just just it's it's it's uh it's it's definitely a dance and a balance um but one worth figuring out yes yes and And yeah, you never know the request could lead to this thing or the ask could lead to this thing or the saying hey could lead to this thing.

1:01:58And I think I have at least found that a lot of the people that you think are kind of unattainable or unreachable are actually like, the reason they are who they are is that they're super fans of the thing, right? Totally. They love books. They love movies. They love art. They love the craft of what they do. And if you can find a way to connect with them about that thing, again, you're not imposing on them. You are connecting with them over the thing that they want to do the most in the world. Finding the common ground. It's so, yeah, it's – people, like friends of mine from back home, like who cool have you met?

1:02:37And I like, well, I meet people and they're usually the best, like the biggest stars and like the most talented people are usually the most, truthfully, they don't seem approachable because you have this thing, this block in your mind. But they're usually the nicest people. They're usually so kind. They're usually the ones who actually remember your name. They're not trying to cool guy you. They're just like, they know who they are. They know how much – they know what they've done. Like they know what their art has done. They know what their music has done. And to meet – just like meeting them and getting to talk to people over the years has been – it's always a really good example to show like how I want – like I'm nowhere near like the status of the strokes or whatever.

1:03:23But like I want to be able to treat those like new up and coming road warrior bands like the way that I like that Albert maybe treated me or whoever has been kind to me. And it's a good example of how to treat other people. How have you I mean, you've you've opened for a bunch of really cool bands. How do you sort of go into that as a student? Like what do you what do you what have you learned or how do you approach that? because I imagine it's kind of, it's, it's not, there's not many industries where like the act of opening is a thing where you, you know what I mean? And so music is unique in that it's just, it's this, it's not a forced mentorship thing because a lot of the bands don't even really talk, but you do get to see great people at work.

1:04:09Yeah. It's always, so like the Manchester Orchestra tour, we were out with them for a month and they're like the prime example of like where I'd want to be with my career. Like they're literally just so kind and good people and care. They didn't even need to bring – there was no reason for them to bring us out, but they believe in what I'm doing. And so they gave me the time of day and like took care of us while we did it. It is really interesting getting to watch artists who are – they have like a whole crew and how they prepare and how they leave stage. and how they take it somewhat seriously but maybe don't take themselves too seriously.

1:04:51It's always really interesting to see that. We've opened for so many bands that I really love. Sometimes you get to talk to them and sometimes you don't. Maybe they'll DM you later. But most of the time, they're relatively... We haven't really had any bad experiences opening for any acts. By the way, how good is that Phoebe Bridgers cover of The Gold? Have you heard it? Oh, yeah, that's so good. So good. Oh, it's so good. I love that. Oh, it's the best. Yeah. Yeah, well, and then to go to the help thing, I think some of the, you don't realize that there's this sort of quiet auditions happening all the time, right?

1:05:31So you might perform for some band, you might both be at the same thing, and you don't really talk, you don't really connect, but you pop up on someone's radar, and they're just kind of watching you. They're like, okay, I've taken note of this person. And then it might be five years later or it might be five months later when they get in an accident and there's a GoFundMe or like for me, I'm going through this right now with the new book. We're going through Instagram and we're reaching out to all the people who follow the accounts that like, I didn't even know existed, right? There's all these people that I'm fans of that have been like, hey, following Daily Dad or Daily Stoic or Daily Foster, me personally.

1:06:10And I'm like, holy shit. why do you follow me? You know, like, how did I not know this? And they're like, oh, you know, I saw you at this thing or the algorithm, you know, put me, you know, put your stuff in my feed. And I just, and then you just realize you've been kind of passively auditioning for this person for a long time. And then there's this moment where it clicks. And, and that's, I think, one reason, obviously, to always act like a pro and to do good work, but you don't know whose radar you're sort of on and who you are slowly forming an impression in that person's mind and what kind of huge door opportunity that could mean in the future.

1:06:54Can I ask you if you've gotten starstruck yet? Oh, a ton of times. Yeah, all the time. All the time. It's usually, like you said, it's usually, like I just interviewed Zach Braff, the actor the other day. Oh, yeah, amazing. And obviously he's like a big deal. he's not like the most famous person in the world or whatever. But I was telling him, I was like, I don't think you understand. Like I used to pirate your stuff, like the TV show you were on because reruns didn't exist when I like this thing, like I used to doubt, like, and, and so like in a very formative place in my life, like I watched all your stuff.

1:07:31And then when, then when you bump into that person and they're like, oh yeah, like I liked this book or I liked this article you wrote, you're like, wow, that's not why you do it. But yeah, that, that is worth a million strangers liking what you're doing. Oh, totally. It's a, it is a, it's interesting when that happens and you're just like, oh, you follow me or yeah. Yeah. That's cool. But I, I just love like watching other pros do stuff and then what you can take from them. I'd be like, fuck, that is a good way to do it. We got to play this radio thing, and we played with the Lumineers. But the next night, the Killers played, who are one of my top.

1:08:14This is where you learned about your vape thing. Well, I didn't learn. I saw that from his Instagram or something. But me and the guys are obsessed with cases and watching people pack the vans and pack stuff. We're like, that's the best thing for us. And so I remember we just sat in the balcony at this smaller venue where the Killers played. and we got to just watch them pack up all the killer's gear and watch how they did it. And we were like, whoa, like we were like genuinely thrilled to see the guitar cases and the case for the drums and how they pack it up so seamlessly. And we were very impressed.

1:08:49And so that's one example of seeing the pros at work. But that it was just, yeah, that was very stupid, but very cool. No, no, it's not stupid at all. I have the exact same story. I was talking to this other speaker that I know. His name is John Acuff. Or John Acuff, sorry. And he lives in Nashville, actually. And he's been sort of a road dog for a long time. And he was just telling me, he's like, I have a suitcase that has a double set of chargers that has like all that. He just has a suitcase that has all his stuff that's not like the clothes he's packing for that trip in it. And so when he goes to pack to go do a talk, like most of his he's not like have you seen my phone charger like where are my razors it's all there that's how it's such a basic thing that like i was doing the obvious stupid way for like years and years and then as soon as someone shows you how to do that thing you're like yeah i'll give you i'll give you another one like uh i i know this guy his name is brett bearup he died a couple years ago and i think about him literally every time i'm at the airport because i remember I was flying home from Austin one time and I forgot where I parked my car at the airport.

1:10:01And I was like, I posted like on Instagram, this like dumb, like ordeal of me, like checking all the things. Eventually I had to like go to like the parking office and they, they had a way to like track, like when you were like, they drove, they're like, you parked right here by, by me telling them what time my flight was leaving. They were able to like tell me, but anyway, he's like, dude, you have to take up. He's like, when you get to the airport and you park, you take a picture of where you parked. And then when you check into your hotel, you take a picture of the card where they write your room number on it.

1:10:37He's like, because you will never remember these things and they'll all blur together with time. And that's what I do every single time. And that guy is no longer alive, but he is. Changed your life. He's changed my life. And he, I will carry him with me for the rest of my life because he gave me this tiny little travel hack. Yeah. And those are the things that make a huge difference. That's the worst. The parking at the airport is the worst, especially when you have to ride with all this gear and the little guys following you around with a cart of guitar cases and pedalboard cases. And you're like, man, I'm so sorry.

1:11:10I don't know where we are. I'll find it, though. Yeah. See, my life's so much easier than you. I like fly in. I don't have to bring anything. I don't even have to bring the audience. It's not my audience. It's somebody else's audience. Like the corporate audience, they'll have to be there. They all paid to be at the conference. And I just, I do my thing and then I fly home. And I was telling someone the other day, I was talking to a comedian and I was like, most of my things are at like 9.30 AM. And then I fly home. I know. Yeah. My things most of the time require us to fly in the day before so we don't miss anything and then fly out the next day.

1:11:51So no matter what, it's a three-day commitment. Yeah, but I have a whole toiletry bag here that's just separate. I have a separate toothbrush, separate like razor, everything, and then different, all my separate chargers, it's all wrapped up, ready to go. I always keep it in a different bag, separate pens, just everything. Just got to have to be ready to grab it and run. no that's what pros do right they know all the shortcuts that reduce the wear and tear on the body on the mind it's like why steve jobs you know had like the one sweater he had 50 of the same sweaters or whatever he's like i'm not gonna think about this every day and that's a thing worth copying or yeah putting your own spin on i do the same thing and wear mostly black car hearts every day there you go black levi's jeans every day it just makes it easier especially when you You have to wear black on tour because you spill your coffee and you might not be able to do laundry for a few days.

1:12:43So you got to wear something to hide all the stains. You don't wear a Michigander merch as a subtle billboard for the table in the back? That's a funny thing because I have – whenever you see me in Michigander merch, it's because all my other clothes are dirty. Not on the road so much, but like at home, like I wore a hoodie yesterday and my friend's like, why are you wearing your own hoodie? And I was like, all my clothes are dirty. I'm trying to wait right before tour before I do laundry and so it's all all my favorite things are ready to go inside my suitcase that's great well I hope the tour goes well and tell me next time you swing through Austin I'd love to see it I think I heard you for the first time it was either I think it was either on Sun Radio or on I think it was Andy Langer I think Andy Langer is a big fan of yours.

1:13:38And he's so great. I just met him for the first time last week. Well, I'm having dinner with him on Saturday. He's coming out to the bookstore. He's the best. Tell him I said, hey. Yeah, he's the best. I will. I will. Well, I love the stuff and I've written a lot to it and it's great and I hope everyone listens. Thanks, Ryan. I appreciate it. Appreciate you.

1:14:01Thanks so much for listening. If you could rate this podcast and leave a review on iTunes. That would mean so much to us and it would really help the show. We appreciate it. And I'll see you next episode.

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