Kate Flannery on the Rise and Fall of American Apparel (PT 2)

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1:20Trust me, your body will thank you for this investment in better sleep, shipping to many countries worldwide. See details at 8sleep.com slash Daily Stoic. I'm picking my kids up from school today and then doing our weekly routine, which is I take them over to Whole Foods. We get all our groceries for the week. Then we have dinner. It's one of their favorite things to do. It's one of my favorite things to do. And then my wife loves it because she doesn't have to take care of it. This holiday season, whether you're a guest or hosting the big dinner, Whole Foods Market has what you need to delight everyone at your table.

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3:05Hey, it's Ryan Holiday. Welcome to another episode of the Daily Stoic Podcast. I hope you enjoyed part one last week of my episode with Kate Flannery, whose memoir of millennial Los Angeles striptease hopefully gives you an insight into things I was wrestling with in my 20s, the things that informed me as a writer, as a person. If you've read Ego is the Enemy, I sort of talk about this at the beginning. My life was falling apart. I'd gotten in way over my head, had picked up tons of bad habits. And I was also watching this person that I admired and had seen a lot in me and instilled a lot of confidence in me, giving me a ton of opportunities.

3:48I'd saw Dove implode and betray so many of the values that had made me initially admire him and made him someone that I wanted to work with. That was a crushing, devastating, life-altering transition period. It just happened to me that I was writing a book about ego as this man destroyed his life's work for really no reason other than wanting to control it, being unable to admit error, being unwilling to surround himself with competent people who challenged him, being unwilling to have any sort of discipline or boundaries or limits in his life. It's a tragic story. It actually aligns. When today's guest, Kate Flanner, was in the bookstore, I gave her a copy of what is one of Dove's favorite stories, The Apprenticeship of Duddy Kravitz, which is a movie with Richard Dreyfuss.

4:46I don't think Dove ever read the book. He would have seen the arc of The Hustler, how it ends up. And I'm sure he hasn't read Kate's great book, but he should. I'm glad to have read it. I was really excited to have her on the podcast. We did a two-hour episode, so we brought you part one earlier in the week, and here's part two, Striptease, a memoir of millennial Los Angeles by the great Kate Flannery, who spent a good chunk of the early 2000s before I got there at American Apparel watching the company sort of expand from just a couple of stores into the behemoth, into the sort of huge, trendy, popular, controversial retailer that I went to work for, I went to work at right around my 20th, 21st birthday.

5:33And, uh, I was really excited to have this conversation and I hope you're interested and I hope you're, and I hope you can listen to it and check out her great new book. You can follow her on Instagram at Kate C. Flannery. You can go to Kate-Flannery.com and you can grab Striptease, A Memoir of Millennial Los Angeles at The Painted Porch, Amazon, anywhere books are sold. Enjoy.

6:08I had a moment. Did you, since we're just quoting television shows now, did you watch Succession? No, I didn't. So there's a scene towards the end of Succession where the Rupert Murdoch character takes his bodyguard out to like some diner in New York City. You know, his family's all alienated from him and he just goes like you're my buddy you're my pal you're my best friend and you're just like oh this is so sad yes i remember one time he had me over to the house to do something and then it was like he was like do you want to go have dinner he like we went like antique shopping and then we had like dinner and and it was just like i realized he didn't have anyone to do these things with And that this, the cost of all of the success was that he was this machine that couldn't be turned off.

7:00Yes. And what seemed like this immensely rich and envious life was probably a prison in some ways. And it was a prison built on what also must have been a profoundly sad and awful childhood. You think? I think so. Well, this is another book. So did he ever have you watch The Apprenticeship of Duddy Kravitz? Did you ever hear him talk about this? No. So it's a novel, which he, of course, did not read. But the novel was made into a movie with Richard Dreyfuss. And he's this sort of Jewish hustler kid, like a street kid who's ambitious, who's like got this snack for sales and trading things up. And it's based in Montreal, like all the places that Dove would have went as a kid, like all his favorite restaurants.

7:50and so I remember one time he had me he had me pirate the movie to put it on the intranet like the company's server so he could whenever he would hire someone some kid he'd be like go to this link and watch you know read 48 lots of power watch this movie it was that movie and and so at one point I was like I'm gonna go actually I watched the movie I stomped around all the places in Montreal and one of those you know things wherever the whole center of the company has to go to this place but I was like I'm gonna actually read the book and so I read the book and the the premise of the book is basically it's this hustler kid who has the love of this young uh like his girlfriend and then he has a father and a grandfather and the grandfather is the person he admires more more than anything in the world the grandfather basically says something like you're not a man if you don't own land yeah and like that basically it was this sort of jewish experience that you had to like make your stake in the world get successful and then no one could fuck with you and then you were like you were not a nobody you made it and so he he's this hustler he's trying to do this and he ends up long story short ends up basically betraying all his values to get this piece of land that when he brings his grandfather to see his grandfather's like disowns him because he knows what he did that the kid misses it and so i i always got this sense that Dove had this sense that if you could just become successful enough, do enough, be popular enough, you know, somebody that rejected him early would love him, whether it was his parents or probably more realistically, whatever, whoever the quintessential American apparel girl was, that was the girl that stood him up for prom or whatever, right?

9:40or humiliated him in some way. There was some like urge to, if he just did this stuff, then he would not feel bad, that the stress and pain would go away. Yes. And one of the most painful lessons you learn in life is that you cannot fix internal pain with external accomplishments or accumulation. So he gets there, he gets to the literally like one of the highest mansions in Los Angeles. Like you're looking down on the rest of Los Angeles and you're a fashion icon. You have more than of anything you could possibly want. And you're just sad and lonely. Yes. Which is why with Los Angeles apparel, I, you know, of course he thinks he'll do that again.

10:29Yeah. He has to do it again. He can't do anything else. He will just roll the ball up the hill. Even if it rolls all the way back down. It's kind of rolling up the hill. Like some young person was like, oh, I didn't know that Los Angeles apparel used to be American apparel. I had no idea. They only know Los Angeles apparel. Right. Like it's. And it's interesting. It's like his aesthetic is so singular and unique that it almost can't be based on any kind of like rational like I think this looks good. It's something like psychosexual that's like implanted in his brain. conversation. Yeah. This is the image he wants to portray.

11:12And why is that? This is the world he wants to live in. Do you know what I mean? Where people dress this way and things look this way. Oh, yeah. This is, it's like, it helped me understand certain artists that it's like, oh, it's not just like, oh, you like painting this. It's like, this is something that's like inserted between you and the world and that's how you fundamentally see the world and you can't yeah not see it yes any other way yeah that's why he's so unmanageable that's why the company just totally imploded yeah um because you cannot change dub charney you can't convince him you can't use logic he is who he is and it's and still is and it's again we we think these things are about money or power and it's it's so clearly something way deeper than that because he had like hundreds of millions of of reasons to not do this.

12:06And he can't not, he can't not do it. So I was involved when the board decided to fire him. And I found out that I'd sort of written out this email, like the board was so disconnected. And so they were sort of like, because he wanted it that way. He picked, it was a handpicked board of people who liked him and stuff. And so they were kind of like, we don't know what's happening. Can you like give it? And I wrote this thing and I eventually found out that this email had made its way back towards stuff because it was it came up in one of the lawsuits but i sort of wrote down this email of all this all his problems and and so when they when they fired him they said they basically went to him and they said look you've got this is the meeting where he's bringing the shoes in to show off these new shoes i think so and and he's like uh you know he thinks you know even though the share price is 70 cents banks won't lend to him Sales are cratering.

13:01You know, he's been sued a gazillion times. He's firing all the people left in the company. And, you know, he's just spent months living in this shipping facility in La Mirada. And, you know, he thinks it's going to be rubber stamp as usual. And instead, they're basically like, look, this is going to go one of two ways. you can resign as ceo keep all your shares which are currently worth tens of millions but if we turn it around be worth you'll be a billionaire and we'll give you a million dollar a year consulting contract and we won't tell anyone why this happened right or this is the press release we're gonna send out and uh you're gonna be terminated for cause you'll lose everything yes he's like you know eating nescafe raw cold water whatever just addicted to caffeine and and he's like i need to think about it for a second he walks out of the room and then he comes back and he goes i reject both options and proceeds to try this hostile takeover which you know he must have known was not going to be successful this is the standard general This is Standard General, which is not going to be successful.

14:19And I mean, he goes to them and he says, I have been wrongfully terminated from my company. I have done nothing wrong. And they said, really, you've done nothing wrong. He said, I've never harmed a fly. I've never harassed an employee. I've never. And they were like, OK, we'll put up all your shares as collateral. role and if you are vindicated by an investigation you'll will give you the company whatever and if not you know you're gonna lose everything and he's like i want that and and he might the he must have known like i knew he wouldn't pass this investigation and i was only one of dozens of people that they interviewed you know and so he there was there was some part of him And that basically said like this, you talked about you identifying.

15:11He said, I would rather it not exist than me not have it because it is me, you know? And so he effectively destroyed the company. He torched the whole thing for everyone. And he did it all from a booth at Farmer Boys across the street. Oh, that Farmer Boys. Because he was banned from the premise. And so he set up shop in that Farmer Boys. Oh, my God. I did not know that detail. And he would just watch who came and went. And the employees that were still loyal would go over there for lunch. And they basically just plotted destroying the thing. There's no rational way not to have known how it would go any other way.

15:55But then it was beyond rational at that point. Yeah. That doesn't matter. I mean, I'm sure. I think he did think he could do it and pull it off. He's pulled off everything else. Yes. You realize what the superpower is, is the ability to so convince yourself of something that you're able to convince other people. I mean, it's changed. That's his story. Well, it changed how I saw it. I mean, I watched representatives from George Soros' company come in, and he convinced them to give him a ton of money. And then Ron Burkle. Like, sharks, you know? And he convinced them, like, I'm not crazy. Everyone else is crazy.

16:28I can be reformed. You know, his thing was that he could convince other people that white was black and black was white and that he could bend reality to his will. Yes. Yeah. So when people are like, why didn't you just leave? Like, do you know what we were up against? Well, and for him, why didn't he walk? He couldn't. He couldn't. Oh, no, could not. No. No. That's why he's still doing it. Yeah. Yeah. With the same people. Some of the same people. A lesson I took out of it, too, was, OK, so the whole idea is fucking nuts, right? Like, we're going to make clothes in America. We're going to pay people a fair wage.

17:07We're going to do it in an old building in Los Angeles. We're going to own our own stores. We're going to do our own marketing. Every part of that. It's going to be done in this one little building. Each one of those is probably a bad business decision. Cumulatively, it's deranged. It flies in the face of all conventional understanding of the apparel and fashion business in the 2000s. Right. And it worked. He did it. And it not just worked, but he was paying people whose other choices to work in a sweatshop. They were suddenly making a family, two were making 80, 100 grand a year with benefits in great working conditions.

17:48He did it. Yep. So the problem, I think, for entrepreneurs, artists, people, leaders is like everyone tells you that it can't work and that you're a madman for considering it. And then you do it. How do you then go, I should probably hire a competent CPA? Yes. Because we need a director of finance. We need a whatever because the board says it's a good idea. You're like, fuck the board. Yeah. Fuck what the Wall Street Journal says. You know, fuck what the lawyers say we have to do. They told me none of this would work in the first place. And that in that success, you are sowing the seeds of your own destruction.

18:29It's so true. It's so true. It's the I alone can fix. Yes. Yeah. Yes. Like everyone who offers me advice or feedback or warnings is a hater plotting my destruction. when in fact they're like, people have driven off this cliff a lot of times and we're trying to help you. Yes, we're showing you some red flags here. Yeah, when we say you should sleep or not, we should sleep like in your bed and you should, by the way, not sleep with your employees. This is not like our personal moralizing judgment. This is like, these are the sirens that destroy the ships in these waters. Exactly. And his reaction when people would say, you shouldn't sleep with your employees.

19:15The heart wants what it wants. He would sort of say with a half smile on his face. Yeah. Yeah. That's your ruin. The heart, the ego, whatever that is. Yeah. A friend of mine interviewed Dove on a podcast. I think it's maybe the last one he did. And he was like, Dove, I want to describe to you this hypothetical. He was like, you're running American Apparel and I'm a Wall Street or I'm the board. And I say, you can't eat peanuts just can't eat any more peanuts uh and if you eat any more peanuts like you lose everything why can't you just not eat peanuts and dove just goes i should be able to sleep with who i want like even like like he can't even so it was so triggering like he couldn't even continue the conceit of the metaphor no no that allegory yeah like yeah for for him yeah just straight up libertarianism right well it's it's yeah it's it's a lack of discipline and ethics and well of course all of these things that ultimately yeah like running running a company that you do all these already crazy things in economically can't also have this other liability on top of it yeah but ultimately you probably realize the company was always a means to an end to do the other thing so it's not like like like

20:45he didn't he didn't want to run the company he wanted what he thought the company would give him which is the thing so to to say hey it's like the person wants to be president because they want the power, not because they have the policy. So you're like, hey, your thing is engendering the policy. They're like, fuck your policy ideas. Like all I want is to be the guy at that desk. Yes. Yes, for sure. Yes. That's American Apparel. That's such an interesting way to think about it. Which way? What you just said. Oh, it's and then and then who are we? I do think that he has a genuine concern for those factory employees.

21:23I mean, you know, he was crying about it when all that was going down. Yeah. He sacrificed all that, though. Yeah. I talk about this in the book I'm writing now. He had this North Star. Because I remember one time, speaking of a human moment, I remember one time we were talking and someone was saying something like, if you do this, you'll make more money. Like some, if we move this here, we do this here. and he said like if i wanted to make if all i cared about was making money i'd have become a drug dealer and that stuck with me and i was like oh yeah we make these decisions we make these decisions we pick these paths in life where we're saying money is not my main thing and then all we think about is money right which it's like you already said this is more important and so that was great he was like oh yeah this is a business and it's a capitalist business and it's designed to make a profit.

22:10It doesn't work if it doesn't make a profit. But his point was profit's not the main thing or even the it's not the only thing or even the main thing. But the problem is that sort of North Star of like, hey, what I'm actually trying to do is, you know, make a great company, not fuck anyone over in the process, blah, blah, blah. This gets another North Star, maybe lower down on the body becomes his priority. And now he's he's making some other some other thing is leading him in these different decisions. And, you know, when he was making the decisions based on the North Star, he was doing heroic, wonderful, amazing things.

22:49And then when he was driven by something maybe more primal or sexual, it made horrible decisions that had horrible consequences for him and for other people. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. But those two things were always there right from the beginning. I mean, that Jane Magg article, he was devastated when it came out. I just heard through the grapevine, but he got so much press from it. He started building his per brand. I know. How could that not have been the end of it? Or even to, and I'm sure you heard his explanation for what was happening, but who would endanger everything that they had to do that and you realize, oh, this isn't a person.

23:32This is a, this is a series of compulsions, uh, inside of a skin suit, you know, like that's not like, that's not what you have. You wouldn't, a person, regular person wouldn't do that.

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26:54You know, you have your—there's like a civil war. You have your north and your south, right? And sometimes you're motivated by one, sometimes the other, but the good part's winning out most of the time. Yes. Or you wouldn't have gotten as far as you were. The problem for him is then he's not sleeping, he's not taking care of himself, he has no hobbies, he has no family, he has nothing balancing him out. And the ability to regulate, to know, hey, this is a trivial give to the lower urge, or I'm going all in on this thing, you lose the ability to regulate and to make decisions and to evaluate risks.

27:32and you end up inevitably imperiling all of it because. Yes, I know. And that's the saddest part. Yeah. Like I come from a little town in Pennsylvania. It's just like a hillbilly hamlet. But, you know, there were factories there. There were clothing factories. There was a vinyl factory. There were all factories. Yeah. And then it was a coal town. And then when that fizzled out, then there were these factories at least providing jobs and dignity to the people that live in this valley. And then because of Democrats, because of NAFTA, you know, all of those jobs were sent away. And now it is just an opioid pit.

28:05Yeah. And when I saw what was happening with American Apparel, I, you know, which was just the effects of all those jobs leaving when I was in high school were just sort of starting to show. And that's actually what my second book's about. I'm really excited about it. And I saw, like, look how he's doing this. We could do this everywhere. We could bring those jobs back. And, I mean, it's more important now than ever. Yeah. Yeah, I think for me, it's like all everyone I knew or everyone my generation was celebrating was all like internet entrepreneurs making like social networks and apps. And I was like, this is real.

28:40This is stuff you can touch. This is a building that they're not going, hey, you know, Instagram just sold for a billion dollars. We have eight employees. This was like, we're celebrating the fact that 12 ,000 people work here, you know, and that that is all true and real and good. it. Yeah. And they're cheering when he walks by. Yeah. I mean, you just need to see that once. And so that's what made the tragedy of all of it. Oh, my gosh. Awful. And then towards the end that he would. That there was no part of him. You know, it's like, look, for all of Nixon's flaws, he basically resigns so as to not throw the country into a constitutional crisis.

29:19He respects as much as he wants the office for himself. He he so lionizes the office and the idea of the office that he leaves before it's destroyed yes and dove had this moment right to go the jig is up i'm still rich i'm still you know i still got these groupies around i'm gonna walk away and i'm not going to throw you know 8 000 sewers onto the streets yes but he can't do it and that that is what duddy kravitz is like he has this idea that he wants this land and the land is everything and even when basically by cutting corners his friend gets paralyzed and he could have spent like he he trades everything to get this thing yeah and and the grandfather's not wrong he sees he goes i see what you become to get this yeah and that's It's like the tragedy of American Apparel is that the guy first says he cares about his workers, but he only cares about the blue collar workers.

30:24Doesn't mind exploiting and abusing, you know, the woman making$30 ,000 a year or the college intern or whatever. and then when push really comes to shove and he has to choose between himself all of those people he chooses those he chooses himself yes yes i said that to him towards the end you said that to him yeah i said something like you're in like such a unique position of being able to say things like that to him like that i could never it wouldn't have i've never seen anyone stand up to him or or i said something like i was like i agreed that you should have been fired but even if i hadn't who you were and what you did after made you worthy of that happening to you and what did he say of course nothing you know uh just you know a wall of victimology and you know anger and resentment and yes and all this stuff you couldn't see it um but but because of course he never did anything wrong he was totally innocent and he's always being persecuted yes um which which i should have seen from the beginning of course but he that that's how i it's like even if he had been innocent an innocent person wouldn't have taken it all with them yes Yes.

31:56Yes. That's so true. Yeah. Just like a person, I think in your book, it's like it must have been a moment for you when you saw this stuff happening around you. And, you know, maybe it's wrong. Maybe it's right. Maybe. And then something happened to you that wasn't him. Like an employee who I should talk about. Yeah. An employee, I think I could guess through the pseudonyms. But somebody basically jumps on you and - Kavanaugh's me. I think that's sort of the best description of that event. Horrible. But his instinct wasn't to protect you. When Dove finds out about it, his instinct is, how do I make this go away so it doesn't inconvenience me?

32:44And fundamentally, what happened to you is not any less awful than a person paying some refugee or migrant worker eight cents an hour to so close. It's exploitation and it's abuse and it's wrong. And he had just decided that some things he cared about and some things he didn't. So true. Yes. And turned it into his sort of like political ideology. Yes. You know, you're stronger than this. Don't be a victim. Be an example to the other girls. You just let this roll off your shoulder. And he called everybody into the back room and lined them all up. Not the offender. But, you know, the girls who wouldn't let me stay in the company apartment.

33:26So I had to stay in the boys' apartment. And he just went down the line and just screamed at them. And I remember them being so ashamed. And it made me feel so good. Like that, you know. Right. He was like, you know, that guy's going to salute you. You know, what's wrong with you? sort of dressing down their work ethic. And it felt good. Like I wanted to hear that. It felt like he cared about me. But I mean, looking back at the scheme of things, you know, that was my compensation. That was all I got. Right. Yeah. And for a while it was, I mean, it wasn't enough, but it worked. You know, I was like, yeah, it felt good.

34:04Yes. Even though I was being so horrifically, you know, mistreated. Yeah, yeah. And he hadn't done anything wrong, right? So that his impulse was to protect the other person, right, gives you a sense of his own understanding of all of it. Do you know what I mean? Yes, definitely. I mean, he had to have empathized with this abuser to let him keep his job, you know. If we start drawing lines that you can't jump all over one of the women that work for the company, who among us has not? You know, that's what he's basically saying. Yes, exactly. So how on earth could he get this guy fired? That's all I wanted.

34:47I wanted him fired. He wasn't fit to be traveling. He shouldn't have been staying in apartments. He had substance abuse problems. He shouldn't be traveling with the girls. All I wanted was for him to be fired. And he stayed. We worked together. I mean, not really, but we would I'd walk into I'd do interviews in stores and he'd be there working. I always got this sense that he had been horribly bullied and abused as a kid, like at school, not by parents. And the result of what this was, he had gotten this sort of real sympathy slash like identification with people who were being accused or criticized or whatever.

35:28Because I remember he was always – someone would do something horrible or screw up and people in the company would be mad at that person. And his instinct was always to defend and protect that person. Oh, my gosh. Absolutely. I was in Boston and I uncovered this scheme – I almost wrote about it in the book – where the manager was – had like her family on the payroll, her boyfriend. They didn't work there. But she was just embezzling all of this money from the company. And I discover it when I'm there. I write this email. It's like three pages long. This is going on and this is going on. Here I am.

36:07I'm seeing it with my own eyes and looking at the paperwork. And I got a call back from one of his gals. And she was like, that was a really long email. I'm like, yeah, but did you see what I uncovered? and she said, Dove says that she's a really nice girl. Yeah. And that was it. She kept her job. I went on to the next city. She, I mean, who knows what happened after I left, but Dove says she's a nice girl. Yeah, there was, I remember we were doing these warehouse sales because he would make all this inventory that was obviously not going to sell. Yeah, I love those sales. The factory store, it's best.

36:44But so much of it in retrospect was obviously just bad managerial decisions. That's why we had this stuff. And then because he was so attached to it, he could never just get rid of it. Right. And so we would sell in these warehouse sales. And I remember I was doing all the marketing for them. We had these successful ones in the US. We're going to take it on the road. We're doing one in London and one in Paris, maybe. And so this is right when Facebook started blowing up. So the marketing just takes off at this level that we don't anticipate. So I don't know. We expected like a thousand people come to sale, like 20 ,000 people RSVP to the Facebook event.

37:17so it's taken off on this level that right and so i'm like talking to people who are doing the thing and one of one of his sort of you know there's the dove girls but they're also dove boys they were like guys who you couldn't figure out what their role in the universe was one of them was in charge and i remember going 20 000 people or more are going to show up this thing you have to be prepared for that there's going to need to be securities and we went over it like multiple times and he just sort of you know like just flying with a seat of the fence and so what happens is 20 ,000 people show up the store can't not ready to open yeah and a riot breaks out and like 20 police officers were injured in this riot there's videos of it like people jumping on police cars it crazy so this is all obviously happening in the middle of the night but I'm sort of watching it happen.

38:05And, you know, I called it's like four in the morning and I go, Doug. And he's the first he obviously had already heard about. And the first words out of his mouth were it's not inserts fault. Like not like, what are we going to do? How are we going to help these people? I can't believe it. Blah, blah, blah. It was it's not this person's fault. And it obviously wasn't a sexual thing because it's a dude and and like what's the important issue here the important issue is is not holding a person accountable that was and so there was i think again because if people start getting if we start holding people accountable for stuff then the whole thing falls apart you're so that's so true yeah yeah you can see it again and again yeah and so you're like this isn't a business this is like somebody's freudian like whatever just playing out.

39:00Yes. You know? Yes. And then I just kept working. Yeah. Yeah. And then you just stay. Yeah. That's the weirdest. That's the weird. Like, how did I think it was going to go? Where did I think it was going to go? Yeah. And then I remember at the end, like, part of me going like, but now I'm not going to be able to say that I worked. Like, like, I remember thinking like this time would be good because the company was obviously going to go on and it would be like, Like, oh, I worked at Apple in the early days. Yeah, in the early days, yeah. But how did I not, I guess I just didn't have the ability to go, this is obviously crashing and burning at some point.

39:36Yeah. Like you're trading your values for an item on your resume, putting aside that you don't want a resume, you want to work for yourself, but for this line item on your resume, as if it's not inevitably going to blow itself up. Yeah, absolutely. Did you find when you left and you tried to work, people were like, they actually saw it as like not an asset but a liability? Oh, it was totally. Yeah, I talk about it in striptease. You know, I was like, I'm going to get a new job. I'm going to, you know, who's not going to want me? I did all the hiring for the biggest company, American Apparel. Who's not going to want me?

40:16No one wanted me. Because they knew? Because they knew. I had a bad reputation just by default. They wanted to talk. I applied to Betsy Johnson. They wanted to talk about Dove Charney. What was it like there? You know, to them, I was just sort of like a curiosity. I was an oddity. I was a young person with no other job experience. And I'm sure they just all assumed I was one of his girlfriends. I've had this weird experience where it was Dove and there's another one where basically like when I was young, this sort of successful older man saw potential in me and gave me a position or access that I almost certainly didn't deserve.

40:51And I thought it was very exciting and interesting. And I learned a lot. And obviously it set me up to be successful. But as I've left, I've had to, I've wrestled with this idea of like, were they wrong or were they right? Do you know what I mean? Like, it's obviously this corrupt, fucked up system that's just like picking people that it thinks can be kind of willing soldiers in this thing. But then also you did a great job. Do you know what I mean? Like you, they were getting a great bargain on you. They were paying you a little and you were actually super competent. But I think I've struggled with this idea of like, did they actually see something in me?

41:30Or was it like the broken system is right occasionally? Or did they see that I was talented, but I also had this other thing that they could take advantage of? Yeah. Like I've really struggled. Of all the things I should be, you know, sorting through, like what does this say about me is probably not the main thing I should be thinking about post-American apparel. But that is one of the big ones. Well, yeah, no, of course. What did it say about me? Yeah. I mean, it's so character defining. Yeah. You know, I just give myself a little bit of compassion and grace. I was so young wrapped up in this.

42:06And, you know, maybe I will have some breakdown in 10 years and be like, I fed all those girls to him. And, you know, you know, I do think about that. But I don't know. I I let myself off the hook a little bit. Yeah. Because I was one of them. I was, you know, sure. Sucked into that system like just so easily. yeah I went back and I asked like some of the women that worked for me there I was like was I feeding you to this thing like did you feel like and and and I like because this is when I was writing the afterword to courage calling and I was really like I was really worried about like there's a reason I hadn't asked the question before you know like was I part of the problem right of course because I read about like I read about Harvey Weinstein these other sort of me too people and i was really struck by the role of the um like the secretaries or the talent agents that were sending these people to these auditions or buzzing them up right and i and um two of them that worked for me they were like they were like look i don't know about everything else but they were like we came from canada to come work in american barrel and dove david seen us on a trip and he brought us down and uh he assigned us to work for you and they were like we remember you didn't want us to work for you because you just thought who are these people and then he had us staying at the house and they said the first they were like what we remember is we came into your office first day did you work at the factory?

43:39yeah I had an office on the second floor right next to Roz's office I was down the way a little bit but they were like the first thing you said to us was you got to get the fuck out of Dove's house. And they were like, we're so grateful. And I had no recollection of that. Oh, wow. That's so interesting. Yeah. That I was like, okay, there's two paths here. You got to get off this path. Yes. And so I felt good about that. And did they? Yes, they did. And they worked for me for four or five years. And they were part of the reason that I didn't leave is that I knew that I could go, you got to give this person a raise.

44:19Like I could, I was the intermediary between that. Because there wasn't a lot of hierarchy, right? No, not at all. And there was at least some respected hierarchy there, which meant more that I could act as a buffer, not even just from Dove, but the other crazy, awful people. Oh my gosh, yeah. And so I felt good about that. But then it's still, it's, I don't know, I still wrestle with the, by not, by not speaking up, how complicit are you? And then also, though, the reason I was able to work on his removal ultimately is that I was still there. So there's this inherently problematic position of being the adult in the room.

45:01Is the adult in the room a positive influence or actually a stamp of approval? Yeah. Yeah. And if you weren't there doing that gig, who else could be doing it? You know, when I did my hiring after this experience, you know, well, really, I wouldn't hire high schoolers. in the beginning I did I didn't know what I was doing but then just because you know they just I wanted full timers I wanted people who wanted the health insurance you know I went out and hired you know people in their mid 20s people that you know had been working at Urban Outfitters and now they could have their own store and like there was a lot of good in that these girls learned how to create businesses and sell businesses and what other jobs would be giving people someone like me an opportunity like that.

45:47I learned so much about how businesses run and so did all the other girls. In fact, my editor was like, that's how we should have ended this book. Just a list of where everybody is now to really fuck with people. I don't like this ending. People want a didactic wrap up. They want me to say sexism is bad and I was bad. But that's just too easy of an ending for this story. Why do these stories keep happening? At the end of my book, I have a sort of dark joke where I'm going into TV to work for a man called Les Moonves. And isn't he going to be great? Because he's a good family man and has a good reputation.

46:19Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, these stories, it's not just the American Apparel story. Dove is not just this, you know, isolated offender. Sure. And, you know, it's not all bad. A lot of good things came from this company. It taught us a lot of things. It taught me a lot about myself. and yeah. Do you see, did a bunch of people that you hired go on to do things?

46:47Not people that I hired, because I sort of lose touch with them. I hire a staff and leave. But the women that worked with me, yes. Yeah, a lot of the women in the book. I mean, even Roz. I mean, look at Roz. Like they go on to create their own apparel companies that are wildly successful. Yeah. I don't know. I wouldn't have had the guts. I wouldn't have known I could do it. I had a different read on American Bro. I thought it was remarkable that a company that was so big and so influential actually didn't have, it didn't seed like a bunch of other big companies. Yeah. Like they're one, well, funny enough, one of the store designers is the co-founder of WeWork.

47:27Oh, yeah. No way. Yeah. Store designer for? Like for the New York stores. He was one of the, like one of the. I had no idea. like architect, like build out guys. Yeah. Yeah. Miguel something, I think is his name. Yeah. And then there's a there's a couple other ones, but not you would think that when something falls, that talent would go elsewhere. Yeah. I've I've always wondered how much of it in retrospect was talent if it didn't go on to do other things. Yeah. Yeah. I I'm just thinking more. I mean, maybe they're not huge companies, but one of the girls I write about in the book, you know she went on to just become an entrepreneur yeah she'll start she had a little business selling like the rubber bands that go on braces and she was like i would go to these like orthodontic fairs and i would i would merchandise them just like american apparel i had every color and she was like i made so much money it was all under the table that i had to stop doing it so that she took the money she earned there and she bought a huge piece of land which is going to turn into a subdivision like sure she would never this is someone who doesn't have a college education Like she learned everything in American Apparel.

48:31You know, look what she's done. It's so amazing. She's so angry at me, but I really respect her as an entrepreneur. Oh, because of how she came off in the book, she's angry? No, no, no. Because of Dove's reaction to the book. She actually loved the book at first. She posted it on her story. Hey, everybody, I'm in this book. And then the next day she went to Dove's factory. And then the next morning I got a text being like, my feelings have changed. I feel exploited. I can't believe you didn't tell me. You are going to tell my stories. so um that's the power of dub even now well i want to ask about that in a second but yeah i i uh i feel like i learned a bunch of lessons like that even well one from your book i like the thing where he was like you're at some store and he's like see this tile oh yeah and he's like do you know what the rent is on this tile that's a and he says for people who haven't read it yet he goes look at this tile what do you think the rent on this piece of tile is basically saying like i have to sell two t-shirts a day to pay for this tile tile and he's like look how many fucking pieces of tile are in this store now one argument is you're the one that put in this expensive tile and you know you didn't think any of that through dub but the other is yeah you have to think about the cost of uh just break even i remember one time we were we were we just opened a new store just started some different channel and um you know he said something and um he goes you know he says like the sales are like you know a thousand dollars or whatever he goes ryan he's like run rates always start at zero and i was like i realized that he was a person who had started at zero and built that to seven eight hundred million dollars a year in sales like he and he saw that with each store.

50:14It starts with the first day, has$0 in sales, and the next day it's$100 and$200. And so he had this ability to kind of extrapolate where he had this confidence in himself because he knew where stuff ended up, right? And that run rates always start at zero. It's something I think about all the time whenever I'm starting something new. Like I'm launching a book, I go, the first week, starting at zero. But what matters is where it ends up. It doesn't matter how it's doing right now, right? It doesn't even matter what the run rate says. It matters where it ends up. Yeah. That's responsible for putting those blinders on him.

50:46You only experience success. I had another one where he, like I called him to like tell him something good I'd done. And like, we just did this. And he goes, Brian, never call me to tell me you did your fucking job. Oh my God. Totally. And I was like, oh yeah, that's right. This is literally what I'm supposed to be doing. Why, why am I, you're not my dad. Why am I trying to get some pat on the back from you? Yeah. Yeah. But God, I lived for those pats on the back. Of course. Of course. That's the whole system. So what was his reaction to the book? Have you heard? I haven't heard. Well, I mean, he doesn't read books.

51:20So there's no way he wrote this book. So I think my friend went there and gave him the lowdown. He got angry. Yes. Not that there's anything in this book that hasn't really been said or done in front of a journalist. There are a few scoops in there that I'm sure he wasn't too psyched on. and I've been waiting in the reviews or pieces on the book for that you know we reached out to dub charlie for comment it finally happened in a washington post piece and it said you know we reached out for comment and you know he didn't comment yeah um and then recently I had a reading where um there's a young woman who works for him who came and she you know at the end I think she's even still living in the big house I know with all that stuff happening and not for much longer it sounds like.

52:06Yeah, I know. I know. So fascinating. So strange, that story. She, you know, I asked her, what does he think? And she was sort of like, oh, you know, I knew there was an opinion, but she wouldn't give it to me. But she said, you know, I talk a lot about this sort of the complicated nature of Dove when I do these Q &As. And, you know, it's hard to just totally disavow my experience there and be critical of him and him as a businessman and stuff like that. And she, of course, loved that. You know, I think people want me to be like, he's a predator. There's just such a difference between predators like Weinstein and predators like Charney.

52:47And then the next day she wrote to me and was like, I just want to tell you again how much I liked how you handled yourself in that Q &A. So I really don't know how he feels about it. Do you think he sent that person? Yeah. So that doesn't read to you as like intimidation? It didn't intimidate me. But I mean, dude, like one, if you're not - Gosh, I didn't think about that. Like I'm trying to think about how a person who, if this is a Scientology story or a different thing, you'd be like, oh, they sent representatives in the audience to send a message. Yes. Well, there could be other representatives that he could send that would intimidate me.

53:27People that are in this story who are still with him. And that was always sort of my fear. Like what if they show up? What if they're yelling? My lawyer's like, you want that to happen? and it's good for the book. Bring them on, you know? But yeah, that's so interesting. It could be. It could be an intimidation tactic. Yeah, he's just sort of, I don't know, keeping his hands on the pulse. But I don't know. I'd love to know what he thinks about it, but I have no idea. Yeah, I've never heard from him about anything that I've written. I always thought it'd be fascinating for there to be a documentary about it, but.

53:59Well, do you know about this Netflix documentary? No. It's Greenlit. Oh. Yeah, I thought for sure they would be talking to you about it. Well, so at a certain point, I just decided I don't owe anyone interviews about my experience at American Apparel. Yeah. Because, like, I did one. It was some – he was on that podcast startup. Oh, yeah, yeah. That was a good one. And I did, like, five hours of interviews for it. Mm-hmm. And it was interesting. It was cathartic. It was actually a great episode. And they really got some stuff. Like, they got him, like, losing his mind. Writing and reading. Yeah, that was a good one.

54:31That might be the one where the girl and her partner are fighting. That was a good representation of. Although there were some people in there that I was like, you're a nobody. You did not do anything. Yeah. But all this, I basically was like, I have to move on and live my life. I don't owe anyone like a part-time job, like a part-time job, you know, as a spokesperson for ex-employees. And so I just basically decided I turned down all of them. I don't do them. Yeah. And it's been sort of healing and also like cleared up time. Yeah. And then every once in a while there's one I go, oh, maybe I should have done that one.

55:05But it's just because every, like, I'm glad we're doing this. But every time I see someone from American Apparel, I'm like, I could spend like eight hours. Yes. Because there's so much to process. So much. Yes. So much to process. Yeah. And you realize you're just carrying it around. And so anyways, that's kind of my thing. But yeah, I'd be fascinated. Yeah. Yeah. should be a really good documentary. Yeah. I think this might be good. It's by this production company, Raw. They did like the Tinder Swindler and Don't Fuck With Cats. I mean, if I didn't have this book, I would never want to do something like that.

55:39I'm like a very private person. I just put out this memoir spilling my guts, but I really am. It's so hard to do the social media thing for this book. I really don't like that. But now I've got to promote this book. So I'm like, damn, I got to be on that Netflix documentary. I met with them. And then of course, in the selling of the option. It just precludes me from doing anything like that. So, you know, it's so hard to get a movie made. You know, I'll be so incredibly lucky if it happens. And here's this greenlit documentary that would be so good for my book, but I can't do it. But I think, I mean, the thing with these documentaries, though, is the people that you really want to hear from would never in a million years.

56:15Right. They're going to do it when they're like 70. They'll still be with it when they're 70. Thanks to Toyota Trucks for sponsoring this episode. When I bought my ranch in 2015 out here in Bastro County, I drove my car about halfway down the dirt road that we live on, thought this isn't going to work, stopped, parked it, walked the rest of the way home, borrowed my wife's car, drove into Austin and bought a truck. What I bought was a Toyota Tacoma. And this truck wasn't just transportation getting me to and from my house. It unlocked a whole different style of living for us, not just on the ranch, but in our little Texas towns.

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59:21I know. I mean, it's been 20 years, you know. So what is that? Why can't certain people get away? Because I think that's like, you see it happen in other facets of life where you're like, this person has taken everything from you. Yeah. Like humiliated you. Yeah. Like you have not gotten a good end of this bargain and you're still. Yeah. He snips out vulnerable people. And I don't think it's something he does on purpose. We were talking about Michael Jackson. You know, my sister who's a psychologist, she was like, how did Michael Jackson know to, you know, snow the parents? And like, how was he such a skilled manipulator?

59:57Like, it's not something you learn. It's just like this innate thing in you. And that's Dove. You know, he's so charismatic. He's a very complex predator because he's not a violent, you know, I'm going to drug your drink predator. But does he, you know, he still has those tools within him. I mean, he still somehow manages to pick these vulnerable people that will stay with him this long. Yeah, that was understanding that trauma, the way trauma can affect a person. Like I remember I read something that sort of changed. They were like, if you grew up watching your dad beat your mom, right? you're not just seeing this is how men treat women but you're you're seeing or even inheriting whatever it is that makes a woman attracted to a person that does that yes so you're actually getting it from both sides like we think it's like oh it's just the the person doing the overt act that's the problem but actually it's both right you're getting it both and so yeah there must be just some profound codependency in some of these folks that make you go because again when the person's on the top of the world there's an economic logic to it there's a fun sexy good energy to yes to want to be in the bunker with this person absolutely like who marries Kanye West now you know like that's it's that it's that energy or even though I mean Dove's like now I want to be in the Kanye West business and you're like oh that's because when one tribe kicks you out to like it's like if the the trendy cool uh tribe kicks you out and then there's the the deplorables over here you know you'd think you'd you'd be able to exist here because that's bad but it's actually you can't be in the limbo you so you end up being driven into the arms of the other people who who your objections to fall away pretty quickly because they like you and you have a shared enemy, which is these people.

1:01:52Yes. No, absolutely. One of the girls in my book, Carolee, we were talking before she read the book and became angry with me. She was like, I don't feel victimized by Dove. I feel more victimized by people like Roz who used me. She took a lot of those photos who sort of used me to impress Dove. And she said, what Dove and I had was something special. I was just like knocked over. Like 20 years later, she's saying this. You guys had something special. You and hundreds of girls, but you had something special. And that's his skill. Every girl feels like that. And that's why some of them, a lot of them are still with him.

1:02:30He makes them feel special. I mean, he made me feel special. I'm sure he made you feel special. Yeah, very much so. Very good at that. Yeah. And I've had to do work on my own travel because my sister works for someone nowhere liked of, but like on a spectrum of that kind of leader. A lot of corporate culture is like that, certainly in reality television. And my aunt was like, what do you think that is? And I'd never thought about it. And it's interesting to go, oh, yeah, so there must be some, what are you doing, dad? There's some energy that makes you go, I need this person's approval or I need them to see me or I need to be part of that inner circle, inner sanctum or whatever.

1:03:13Yeah, definitely. Yeah. there was another one maybe you might like this i remember one time did you get called in to these like meetings which weren't really meetings they were just like two hours of ranting ranting yeah i was just gonna say a ranting meeting absolutely yeah so i i would often get called to the ones at this on the seven floor of the factory and i remember we it's like it would be like you'd be walking and talking and then you're in there and then go get this person and go and it was like suddenly you realize i'm getting flashbacks the whole company has been called in right and so i I remember it struck me one time, like nobody's working because everyone's here.

1:03:48And I said to one of the other creative directors, not Roz, I said, you know, what was that? You know, and she goes, the thing about Dove is he wants an audience a little bit more than he wants to be successful. And I was like, oh, that's it. Yeah. For him, again, the company was the accidental byproduct of wanting the people who have to listen to him. You know, just like, again, yeah, like the person, the political career is the byproduct of wanting to be chosen or wanting to be the person with their finger on the button. Right. And yeah, just going, oh, yeah, for him, it's this desire to perform, to be the center of attention, to be attended to.

1:04:34Yeah. That everything else is the by. And so I've just. Walking around in his underwear, like perfect symptom of that. Like, yeah. Yeah. He's the show. But what I've tried to do, especially as I've gotten older, is go like, my job is not to make a character study of this person, but to go, what in this person is similar to something in myself? Like, where do I have things where what I really like to do is be angry more than I'd like to solve the problem? Or you know what I mean? Like, where do I have those tendencies? And then how do I chip away at them? That's pretty good. Yeah. Maybe I should start doing that.

1:05:06I feel like you did a good job in the book. I thought you, especially for a thing that I think you could very easily, for your experience, just be like, in my 20s, I worked at this place. That was it. You know what I mean? Like, it wasn't like, I mean, I guess you had the business cards. But you weren't like, it was your identity to the world. Like, no one would have to know. Right? But for clearly you decided to go back and think about what it meant, what parts of you it triggered, which is what memoir is, right? It's like action. The event, it doesn't have to be actually an action-packed, crazy story filled with hijinks.

1:05:48It's really what does it mean to you? And then by understanding what it means to you, what does the reader learn about themselves? Yeah, definitely. Yes. I think when people finish this book with a judgment, how could you? Yeah. It says more about them than it does about me because this book is how anyone can be sucked into that. You know, here's the gymnastics that I went through. It wasn't a character flaw. It was, you know, how someone can get sucked into a cult, an abusive relationship, and stay and stay for a long time. Yeah. How does your conscience get chipped away at by your work or your identity or your tribe or whatever?

1:06:24Yes. How can you become debased without realizing it? How can things just warp before your very eyes? Well, yeah, that's the line in the thing. How do you fool yourself into thinking you can deal in filth and not become filthy? Yes. Yes. You can't. You can't. Yeah. It's so true. There's this expression I heard, the things you work on work on you. And, you know, and ultimately you're being changed by it as you're doing it, you know? Yeah, definitely. Yeah. I got obviously my because my first book was not really a memoir of American Apparel. was more like what it meant about the media and that time and place.

1:07:00Yeah, that book helped sell my book. Oh, really? I had that right at the top of my proposal. I was like, Ryan Holiday, pitch this book about Ring for American Parallel. And look how everyone responded. Well, let me tell you, I have that book. Yeah, nobody - My agent was like, put that at the very top. That's going at the top. It's funny because when that came out, everyone was just super mad at me. They were like, I was - It felt like a lot of shooting The Messenger. And I remember going into somewhere like, you know, I didn't have to write this book. Like, like I could have just kept doing it.

1:07:33Like, so this idea that this is like good for me. I don't think you understand how this works. Like, and for you, for people like you could have just kept working there. Yeah. Like, and, and you could still be working there now. Like some of these people who basically have sort of jobs for life. Yes. Their lives are their jobs. Yeah. But, but you're, I chose not to for a reason. I'm not saying I'm perfect. I'm not saying I don't have things that I regret or feel ashamed of that but things that like I don't have to answer for but I'm only answering for them because I told you I did them yeah you know like true like uh it it didn't have to go this way yeah you did not I was like especially that really upset me with the media stuff it's like you could have found this stuff out but you didn't because for your own reasons you didn't want to know certain things or it was hard for you to know some things so you rather just talk about what the ads mean or what they represent yes right and i really hated that thing where they would go she she looks barely legal and it's like okay so first off the phrase barely legal means legal right and second now you're saying it doesn't even you're saying you're double confirming that this thing is legal you're just saying you don't like it is what you're saying you're saying it's it's weird Which it is, but there's a difference between weird and what you're implying.

1:08:54But like that's not the issue. As you say in the book, like the issue is that that is an actual person. And that the photo is capturing what happened before the things that you should be upset about happened. Yes. Yes. Yes. And by the way, actually, it might not even be a sexual thing that happened. What actually happened is that you have a person making$11 an hour working 90 hours a week. Yes. You know, like what you think is happening is not what's happening. Yeah. Yes, yes. That's not the issue here. I mean, it's an issue, but it's not the big issue. So the other thing I've wrestled with, and we can wrap up, but what was always hard for me.

1:09:39So I, my job was doing public relations for a person who was guilty of stuff. but the tricky part is and i'm sure you saw some of this and this isn't a thing that our culture has the ability to handle especially in a world where we have to say things like believe women because women are often not believed but some of these people are problematic do you know what i mean and like ultimately the lawyer who filed most of the lawsuits against uh ultimately represented him in the lawsuit yes where against the board where he argued that dove was innocent of all the things right so though one of those has to not be true and also that same lawyer and one of his clients when i was 20 years old 21 years old broke into my email and leaked all of it oh my god like there's a police image the whole thing so like i had this sense of and i think this allowed me to see what i to not see what i needed to see was that that's so horrifying you know what i mean these were these were complicated things it wasn't as clear cut as and your person did x yeah they deserve y and you're 23 when this is happening when your emails are yeah probably yeah probably yeah it must have been it was like 2008 maybe um i thought my whole life was younger than that yeah yeah yeah i can't imagine how dramatic that must have been which I mean it was my fault in some ways but whatever but the point is this wasn't this isn't this wasn't Aaron Brockovich shit do you know what I mean like this was this was complicated and yes that's made it hard for me as I've left to go like should I you know how have you thought about that yeah yeah well like I said I sort of let myself off the hook a little bit.

1:11:35Yeah. You know, I just really feel like he is the one responsible and I am a victim too. I may not have been sleeping with him. Um, but I, you know, I like haplessly got sucked in. Yeah. Does that what you mean? No, no. I mean, I, yeah, I do. But I mean, also as we wrestle societally with Me Too and Predator, et cetera. Yeah. What you see it, what you saw firsthand in American Apparel is that it was complicated. Oh, yeah. Like, like, like, it was like some of the stuff he got in trouble with was for was actually like was unfair. And then the things that he didn't get in trouble for actually were wrong.

1:12:17And I think that's what fucked with my compass the most is it's like, I happen to know in this instance, I've met you and I was there. Yeah. And then in this instance, I saw this other thing. And what the fuck was that? Yeah. You know? Yeah. And those were separated in some cases by years. Yes. And so - Yeah. See, you worked with him more than I did. You know, he was almost like a, you know, a larger than life sort of cartoon character to me. So I, you know, I did see certain dichotomies, but when I thought about him, I just sort of idealized him as this sort of like funny, you know, boss that was like me, who wasn't really like a boss.

1:12:57Not like any boss I had had before. Yeah, but then I'm like, mean girls. I'm not like a mom. I'm like a cool mom. Yeah, he's the cool boss, for sure. Yeah. I was just totally in drinking all the Kool-Aid. Right. You know, it had to take some really dark stuff for me to realize there's like really bad stuff happening here. And I stayed. I stayed. No, for me, that was actually one of the kind of the breaking points was going, I believed you on these other ones. Yeah. And then it kept happening. so even if it's complicated you are continually putting yourself in the situations which is unfair to everyone who works here yes you know like even if this is 20 exaggerated 50 even if it's wholly made up you know there's one way to solve this and you can't do that thing and so for you to circle the wagons and say let's all protect the thing it's like actually you're the one that is repeatedly jeopardizing.

1:13:57Yes. Which is its own psychologic, though. I've seen people say this about Trump. You know, they're like, they're like, I believe in what Trump stands for. The problem is he he's not art like artful enough about it. And it's like, I get it because it's like you're a true believer and you think he's the problem because he's jeopardizing where you haven't gotten to the places you go. This stuff is fucked up. This is the wrong stuff. It's bad. Yes. Yeah, totally. That is a really, yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. That he just kept doing it is again, it's like even. You don't get falsely accused 50 times.

1:14:37No, definitely not. No. Yeah. That that's that's the other thing, because I wrote the book about media manipulation. I have heard from basically in in the intervening 10, 11 years, I've heard from pretty much everyone that's ever been canceled or like accused of something like against my will. In most cases, like someone gives them the book and then they reach out and it's you know what I mean? And like in some cases, like people I find totally abhorrent. Yes. And then and then it was. It's like being this defense lawyer that with time, you know, could all my clients be innocent? that doesn't work you know and going like how are you and you're all saying the same fucking shit which is not just like i didn't do it you're like i didn't do it and i'm really the victim but because they only say that to usually to someone who hasn't heard it before yeah it makes sense right yes i got to imagine like someone who's a domestic abuse survivor the second husband or whatever the excuses don't work as well it's with the first it's when you're in the back and forth with the first person that you don't see how transparently the playbook is being run on you know what I mean?

1:15:55Yeah, that's true. So what's the next book? The next book is, well, I haven't sold it yet. I'm kind of, I still, I work full time. My life is really busy. I wrote my first three books while I was at American Apparel. Yeah, yeah. I know that very well. Yeah. In fact, if I didn't, it would probably be more difficult for me because I sort of need that structure. Keeps you honest. Yeah, Yeah, definitely. It's a book. Let's see. It's Virgin Suicides meets, you know that documentary Paradise Lost about the West Memphis Three? Yeah. So that's what it is. Okay. Virgin Suicides in the Satanic Panic Era.

1:16:31And it's a book about corruption and a rumor panic that sweeps this small town that's sort of living in fear already of brown people moving in from Philly and joblessness. Yeah, true story. true story it takes place in 1996 the events and um yeah i'm really looking forward to it it's a very character defining story for me and in a way it really shows how i uh i could get sucked into this to this uh yeah striptease it's a good it's a good prequel no good for you i mean that's kind of the playbook i did which is like i wanted to be a writer and i knew i had to write about this thing that i'd experienced yeah and i knew i it can't be later like it has to you have to get it out yeah you know what i mean and i think you did it like this is this is burning the boats behind you and now you can write about something that you're interested in that that is you know and you've proven it you've proven you can write a book prove a book that gets reviewed well that sells well you've done all that stuff yeah and now now you can be like one for you one for me my passion project yeah for sure great that's amazing thank you yeah i'm really looking forward to it.

1:17:38Anything we missed, you think? In the beginning, you asked me when I started, how I started to write the book. And it's interesting, right after I left, because the story was still, I mean, I just knew I would write about these crazy events. I started to write a fictionalized version and I got about 75 pages in. And then I just sort of lost steam. You know, the company was still, this is in 2009, 2010, I was doing this and the company still raring to go. And I sort of just didn't have any perspective. And it really took the Me Too movement happening and just reflection and me, you know, doing something else for a decade.

1:18:17And I always knew it really probably should be a true story because you don't need to make this shit up. Just tell like it is. Anytime, like when they did him on SNL, there's like a Law and Order episode about they're so bad it can't it's so um unbelievable yes oh you can basically only do it as real yeah yes so i don't think i don't think it would have worked no i don't think so either and some agents were like we you should do that you know the people it was meant to be a true story and i'm glad i did it now um when i've really had time to think it's also just such an interesting period culturally that like is just distant enough but doesn't quite feel like it's not far enough there's nostalgia but just yeah how many bands were coming out then like the hipster thing is now in the rear view like there's no like hipster it's because it the trend lasted a long time but like it's kind of brooklyn feels over yeah east la feels over like it's it's now a historical period as opposed to a thing that like now when I say like it used to be it'd be like I was the director of marketing and people would know what that was oh yeah and now I don't even put it in my bio not because like I'm ashamed of it but it just doesn't mean anything yeah it doesn't mean anything it's like oh he was the CEO of compact computers like what you know like the word doesn't even have any rest which to me is the saddest most tragic part like it has something so popular and so big and so ubiquitous.

1:19:50Yes. And so much potential for changing an industry. Yeah. Like, am I deluded? I still think we can do it again. Maybe not Dov Charney. Well, I think a lot of people can take that. Like, I try to run my business. Like, I only make stuff in the US. I try to like, I've taken a lot of those principles and how I do it, which he was right about. Yes. And I think post the pandemic and then the supply chain crisis, we are seeing a lot of reassuring. People are like, oh, yeah, it's not free to make your stuff 3 ,000 miles away or 5 ,000 miles away or whatever. I like a 12-year-old in Bangladesh, you know?

1:20:23I remember he said to me once, he was like, you can't buy a bikini for$5 without somebody getting fucked. Yes, yes. And like, it's true. Like, you can't make an item of clothing for 80 cents. It's like, it's just not how it works. I know. And by the way, American Girl stuff wasn't any more expensive than the other shit. So where does that money, where was that money going for the other brands? Yes. You know, it was going to the models and the celebrities and the Times Square store and a bunch of other waste, basically. Yeah. Well, I'm really glad you read the book and I wasn't going to read it.

1:21:05And I was like, you know what? I am going to read it. I know. I wondered, how did you come across it? And the first thing I learned in this whole book process is to get your own PR person. Yeah, of course. Don't put this on there. But yeah, I learned a lot about. I learned that from American Apparel. Yeah, I bet. Because like you don't, you have to do it yourself. Yeah. Yes. You can't outsource the most important thing. Yes. Yes. Yeah, I learned a lot. So anyway, that's why you never got it or I never reached out to you. Well, somebody at American Apparel texted, not from America, that I remember she was like, have you read this book?

1:21:38What do you know about it? And I was like, I never even heard of that. And then I Googled you and I was like, the lady from The Office? Oh, yeah. And I was like, now I'm extra confused. I know. I know. Some people are like, I thought this book would include how she got famous. I'm like, you know what? It's fine. Those people are buying the book. Right on. I think I'm that called. Who is also from Philadelphia. It's like so confusing. That's funny. No. And then I was like, am I going to read it? Am I not going to read it? And then I read it and I read it in a day. I thought it was amazing. Thank you.

1:22:08Of course.

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