Kate Flannery on the Rise and Fall of American Apparel (PT 1)

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1:52Welcome to the Daily Stoic Podcast, where each weekday we bring you a meditation inspired by the ancient Stoics, a short passage of ancient wisdom designed to help you find strength and insight here in everyday life. And on Wednesdays, we talk to some of our fellow students of ancient philosophy, well-known and obscure, fascinating and powerful. With them, we discuss the strategies and habits that have helped them become who they are and also to find peace and wisdom in their actual lives. But first, we've got a quick message from one of our sponsors.

2:34hey it's ryan welcome to another episode of the daily stoic podcast you know i'm still wrestling with it i'm i'm wrestling as i think we all do wrestle with who i was in my 20s decisions i made things i found myself doing views i had things i did too much of things i didn't do enough of And you may have even seen me wrestle with this in the afterword of Courage is Calling, something I've wrestled with a lot in the preface of Ego is the Enemy. But for those of you who don't know, before I wrote these books, I wrote books on marketing. And those books on marketing were informed by my experiences as a marketer.

3:18I was the director of marketing at this company called American Apparel, which was at one point the fastest growing fashion company in the world. Hundreds of millions of dollars a year in sales, made millions of garments every year. And they made them right in downtown Los Angeles, not using sweatshops, doing some of the coolest, most provocative, most talked about marketing in the world. And I came to the company somewhat midway through its trajectory. It was really hot in the early 2000s, sort of peaking right around when I joined in 2007. And then over the next seven years while I was there, it was constantly in the news for good reasons, bad reasons.

4:01And its founder, Doug Charney, was this person who saw a lot of potential in me, gave me a lot of opportunities, but was also a deeply flawed and even tragic figure. And I've been talking about and writing about that really ever since the first time I met him because he gave, he offered me a job that night. And I said, look, I'd, I'd love to do it for reasons you'll hear in today's episode, but I'm going to, I'm going to be writing about this the whole time because I write about my life and I need to carve out the ability to do that. And anyways, needless to say, it's a controversial company. Dove almost certainly would have been me too, had he stuck around a little bit longer.

4:44He was a great man in some ways, a terrible man in other ways, and remains an enigma and a contradiction and a terribly sad man to this day. I'm going on and on here. When I heard about this book by today's guest, Kate Flannery, I almost couldn't read it because it's really the first memoir, other than some of the sections I have in Trust Me, that anyone's written about their time at American Apparel, largely because there's been all these, there was some very onerous paperwork that many employees signed. And also it was a cult of personality and many people weren't able to see it differently, especially when it went down the way that it did.

5:34So I don't want to step on today's guest. I want you to read her amazing new book Striptease, A Memoir of Millennial Los Angeles, which is a great little subtitle. And the New York Times Book Review gave it a rave review. Good Morning America raved about it. New York Post raved about it. Washington Post raved about it. It's just a great book. It hit especially close to home for me. And so I reached out to her agent, Bird, who I've worked with a bunch of times and said, do you think she'd come on the podcast? And he set it up and she came out to the, she came out to the painted porch. We did a big episode.

6:13I'm bringing you part one today and then part two later in the week. You can follow her on Instagram at Kate C. Flannery. You can go to her website, kate-flannery.com and you can grab striptease at the painted porch, grab it on Amazon, anywhere books are sold. I hear there's more to come from Kate. She's working on other projects. She's a fascinating lady who I was glad to get to meet and I think you'll really enjoy this episode. So stay tuned for part two next week also.

6:52I'm glad we're talking after like a little while after I read the book because it took me a while to like process it. Yes. Was it hard for you to write? Was it traumatic to write or was it cathartic? It was cathartic for sure. Yeah. For sure. Yeah. It felt great. And, and I mean, you had, you had a good amount, you had a good amount of separation between the events of the book and then writing about it. Yes, definitely. Did you have to wait? Was there, were you like, uh, cause my generation of American employees and the reason I think there haven't been more books is there were all sorts of legal paperwork that everyone had to sign.

7:29And I wondered if things were a little sloppier at the beginning, which I assume they were. Yeah. Yeah. I think that they were for sure. Um, there was, when I was even just selling this book, um, there was a lot of talk, you know, what did you sign? And in my memory, I really held on to everything, anything I'd signed. I still had my severance agreement. I had everything. Uh, But there was really nothing that was too – the severance agreement was pretty standard. But, yeah, a lot of agents and stuff were a little flipped out. But surprisingly, going through that legal read, there was very little stuff I had to change.

8:03Yeah. I just thought the book was perfect, especially at the beginning because you're what? A union station or something, right? I forget where you were. But you get handed a piece of paper that's basically a flyer for a cult. And you're like, no, I would never do such a thing. Yes. I'm at the Glendale Galleria. Yes. Very important landmark in Los Angeles. You know that's where the first Apple store was? No way. I know that Apple store. That's my Apple store. There you go. Oh, that's so crazy. Yeah. Yes. I was confronted by this cult girl who just looked like a regular college girl. She had a Northridge T-shirt.

8:42And she told me she had a prophecy for me, which sort of piqued my interest. And then she said, it's about the mother God. You know, do you know the mother God? And right there I was like, oh, no, I'm in California. Here's my first cult experience. I've been here a week. Sure. It was very obvious. And then later, you know, when I was scouted for American Apparel, it was, you know, just as explosive of a pitch. Yes. But way more appealing to me. Right. One appeals to the ego. The other is sort of spiritual. And then the other one is a job and exciting and interesting and all these things that sort of get your defenses down.

9:22But then ultimately, you know, it has a similar dynamic, I feel like. Oh, definitely. Do you do like did you come to see it that way after that you had sort of been in some kind of a cult or is it cult ish? Have you heard that word? It's like cult ish. Yes, that wonderful book by Amanda Montel. Yeah, yeah. Exactly. If you would have told me then, you're in a cult, I would have said, this is my job. I'm getting a paycheck. Never, ever would I. But there were certain dynamics about it that were culty. I mean, even then, that felt good. You know, everyone's looking for a sense of place and purpose and identity, especially when you're 23.

10:05Mm-hmm. And I think Charney really harnessed that. He, you know, created this neverland of young, ambitious people that were still children in a sense and very easy to manipulate. And I was one of them. Oh, yeah, me too. I mean, my first visit to the factory, I saw him first at his house. I met him there. At the little house or the big house? No, the big one, which we should talk about. But which was, you know, a surreal experience. It was at night. You're looking down at LA from this like, you know, multimillion dollar mansion. I'd never met anyone like that. But I remember he said something like, I want to show you the factory.

10:44Come down, you know, like a couple of days. And I went down to the factory, which is in the warehouse district of downtown Los Angeles. You drive through Skid Row. You know, you have no idea what to expect. Then you pull up this enormous building, which when I was there still had the same banners that you're talking about in the book. American Apparel is an industrial revolution. Those banners are still on the building. It's very unusual. What are they doing up there? It's probably hard to take that. I mean, they were two of the biggest buildings I'd ever seen in my life. I mean, it's two 800 ,000 square foot buildings and they've been there for a hundred years or something.

11:18And so I walk in, you take that janky elevator up you're talking about. And then I was supposed to meet him on one of the floors and I meet him. He's sort of on the move and he he walks we walked through this cafeteria which i'm sure it was the same one and then all of a sudden you're just on the floor of a factory where like these sewing machines are going and people are i don't think i'd ever been in one before you know people are making these shirts at this like lightning pace and as he's walking down the thing everyone stops and they get up and they just start cheering and i was like what is this you know this that that wasn't the cult in the sense that these were, you know, young, these were like, uh, factory workers who had been so changed by the decisions that he'd made.

12:06Like they owed this, this guy was their ticket to the American dream in an incredible way. And I remember seeing that and just, I mean, I was just sort of in it then, you know, that's the moment I had that exact same experience. They were getting up on their chairs. And now that I think about it, does that happen every day? I don't know. Did he ask for that in some way? Yeah. How? Yeah, that's so interesting. Did he? But, you know, and I'm sure you feel this way too, but, you know, when people look back in hindsight, you know, how could you stay? How could you have stayed? That moment is all you need to firm your resolve that this is a good place.

12:43This is a place that's making a difference. And I want to be a part of this. Yeah. I mean, when you think about these cults, right, a cult is sort of promising all these things that potentially in the future, this could happen. And this is this path to acquisition, all these sort of ephemeral spiritual promises, right? Which depending on who you are and what you're going for, that could be very attractive. I think what was very different about American Apparel is that shit was real. That was a real building with making millions of garments, making hundreds of millions of dollars a year. And there were real people who were not like the people that I grew up with who were like, this guy is doing a thing that shouldn't be possible and is life-changing and amazing.

13:24And you're just like, I want to be a part of that. Absolutely. And I still believe in that business model. You know, it's very complicated. It is. It's incredibly complicated. It can be done somewhat seemingly easily. We desperately need those factory jobs back here. Can we do it? Let's do it. When he was - I know it's not that simple, but - He was doing it. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? It's not like he had this sort of promise. this it's not even like a we work thing where you're like this is this it it's an it's a revolution theoretically like it was real it was happening it was making stuff and this stuff was good and i thought i would work there for the rest of my life did you i don't know if i thought i'd work there the rest of my life so my relationship with american pearl i think fundamentally why the Colt never like got me is that I always wanted to be a writer.

14:16And so, and I met Dove through Robert Greene, who wrote The Forty Loss Power, we talk about in the book. And so I always kind of had one foot in and one foot out in that, like, I really want to do this thing. And it was really exciting. And I thought I could learn all this stuff. And I also thought it would be a way to make money and then be secure. So, but, but I always had this other thing that I was doing. and I think fundamentally what Colts do and partly what made the American Apparel dynamic work is he was really picking people who didn't have anything else going on or any other options.

14:48And then it becomes your world. And then as you get isolated from regular people and the rest of the world, your sense of what's normal and not normal goes away. Absolutely. Yes, exactly. That's the story of striptease. Yeah, totally. Well, and you don't, when you're 23, you don't see yourself as a child. Oh no. I had it all figured out. No one was going to get me, but yeah, you are brand, you are wet behind the ears. I met Dove before I could legally drink. And so that's crazy. How old were you? Were you 21? I was, I turned 21 like a month after I started. Oh my gosh. That's so crazy. I was 23.

15:26So I was almost on the old lady side. Like I was one of the elders there. And when I left, I was 27 or 28. And then I certainly was. Right. But you don't Like in when you're 20 or 23 or whatever, you're like, I'm great. I'm I have all these things. You don't think like I don't know shit. Right. And so you can't even you can't even go. Why does an adult want to hire me? Like, why? Why do they want this? Right. And the reason they want it is because you're a child and you don't know shit. Right. Like, yes, you know, people will say, well, why didn't you rebel? Why? I thought I was rebelling. We were in this subversive company that was changing.

16:05We were rebelling. We were revolting. I was doing all of those things that I thought the kind of person that I was would do at 23. Right. Yeah. You don't see him as the man and you don't see everyone else working regular jobs, doing regular things. They're the man, which is kind of the dynamic of what a cult does or any tribal dynamic, which is like, how do you make it us versus them? So then you don't think about what's weird about you. You only think what's wrong with them. And then as the media attention or the outside criticism comes in, it has the very insidious effect of actually making you digging deeper.

16:44Oh, absolutely. Any friends that I had, what are you doing work in there? It just you don't know. It solidified my feelings. I was in the right place. It just pushed me deeper and deeper and deeper in. When you talk about this in the book, it's like you think you're you're winning and no part of you is like you're making like twelve dollars an hour. You know what I mean? This is you're not winning like this isn't you have no sense of how it works anywhere else. That's why you were picked. And so like you're you don't see you can't see yourself as a victim. And so you're missing the fact that even if this was like.

17:23You're not even like being mercenary because you're not being paid enough to be mercenary. you know totally i know it's so shocking it's so shocking um yeah it's uh it's it's weird there's not that many people who can talk about it because that's why i was so looking forward to our conversation because no one really knows and i was like what is this gonna be like because he really knows and i mean i was there during the party yeah and you were there during the fall Well, yeah, you were there. It's weird, right? Like, I felt like I was there early because it had just gone public. But yeah, I mean, even when you were there, it was, I mean, he'd been doing it.

18:02And for people don't know the American Apparel story, he started in his dorm room at Choate, the like the elite boarding school on the West Coast. And so he'd been in that business for 20 years, or 15 years. And then I didn't come along until like years after you. So it kind of had these different eras. Yeah, it did. But. Yeah, when I started, I mean, there were people there with far more seniority than I was. I was the new girl. Yeah. But really, I was there right at the start. Yeah, you were there before any of the negative press, really, or that started while you were there. Well, I think really the first thing was the Jane, the Jane magazine interview with Claudine Co.

18:45And that was before I started working there. Oh, really? Yeah, that was maybe six months before I started. And that is where I, you know, we got flyer bombed. It was like maybe my first month of work. Overnight, these, you know, wheat pasters showed up and put flyers all over the store. And they said, the outside of the store and the street and Sunset Boulevard and everywhere. And they said, obey your master baiter. B-A-I is like an interesting pun. And it was, that was a reference to that Jane Magazine article. I was sort of like, you know, the manager was like, get into action, Dove. It could be here any minute.

19:21You know, I was like frantically peeling them off. And I ended up saving one. And really, it was at that moment when I peeled it off. It was like intact. And I kind of tucked it away. And I thought, I'm going to write about this someday. Wow. I'm going to write about this someday for sure. You know, I had studied writing in college. And I was always sort of, you know, I knew there would be some story I was going to write. And that was it. And I even told people, I'm going to write about this. Yeah, sure, sure. No one believed me. It took a while, but yeah. It's kind of remarkable you have these moments like that, and I do too, where you're like, how is that not the beginning and the end of it?

19:57Exactly. But the mind finds a way to make it make sense or not make it urgent or whatever. Yeah. Also, a big factor is, I mean, it seems like it's so close in our rear view, but 20 years ago was like a very different time culturally. Yes. Especially in that moment of celebrity sex tapes and upskirt shots and the girls had gone wild. That's true. And I, as a feminist coming out of this like feminist college, wanted to, you know, be a sexually autonomous being and really sort of like embrace my sexuality. And here was this company that was so in your face, so open. I really felt like that was the next step in my feminist evolving evolution.

20:46It made sense maybe within the overall vibe of like sexual positivity. Yeah, exactly. You weren't supposed to be judging people. There wasn't supposed to be aberrant behavior. Everything was normal or on some kind of spectrum. And maybe everyone has this sense that there are lines, but like because they weren't clear, it made it easy for or made it possible for people to kind of play the different groups off of each other for sure definitely and i mean i'm still a sexually positive creature um but american apparel was you know there's a lot of good things about it but it was really sex positivity to the point of toxicity of course um you know like anything in the patriarchy you can't get all the good stuff yeah it's it's so it's so strange so okay so you get you basically get flyered off the street and you have no idea that this thing is going to change the course of your life.

21:45You mean when I get scouted? Yeah. And then you just, I mean, you start the way most people started in American Apparel, which is you started as a retail employee. Yes. And I was like, you know, I had just spent a year writing at the Urban Outfitters headquarters. And so I was like, you know, I have other skills here. Like I could be copywriting. I could, you know, that's what I've doing they're like no no you stay here yeah and i wanted to be a part so bad i i a part of things so bad that i did it anyway they're like here's the key you know and i showed up on time i brought my east coast work ethic where i showed up on time they're like whoa you're in charge and you know i sort of stuck myself there oh yeah it was definitely a real job and it felt like a real job it gave me health insurance um it did pay a few dollars over what other retail jobs paid i in the long run, Urban Outfitters also really underpaid me.

22:35I was making the same, you know? But I was in charge. You know, I had, well, I mean, I thought I was in charge. I had more responsibility and I felt more important. I felt like I was a part of things. Have you thought about what part of you it was or what it was that made you want to be a part of it so bad? Yeah.

22:57I mean, I've always sort of, you know, like wanted to operate on the fringes of things. And, you know, I came from like a punk rock background and it always felt good to rebel. Even going to Bryn Mawr, which is such like a feminist institution, was a way to rebel. And so here is even another way to take it further. Yeah. I, you know, I think that some of the girls, you know, have like a sense of, or sort of like vulnerability about them that made them, I don't know where I'm going with this, that made them easier to be victimized in a way. And maybe I didn't have that sort of vulnerability, which is why I didn't, you know, wasn't a dove girl or didn't get wrapped in.

23:49But I don't know, that might be a little victim blaming.

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26:47One box with active subscription. Free meals applied as a discount on the first box. New subscribers only varies by plan. That's HelloFresh.com stoic10fm to get 10 free meals plus free breakfast for life. no there there was a there's a child likeness to most of the girls that he uh i have never once turned on cereal on my watch on purpose only on max um no there there was there was this sort of mix of like uh adultness and child likeness in the women that were in the company. Oh, definitely. Which sort of also is true of Dove also. But yeah, there was kind of

27:34a childlikeness. Well, because of his behavior, his sense of humor, only teenagers are going to tolerate that shit. Like if I had a boss doing that, I'd be like, I know. No way. And not because of my experience with American Apparel, just because of how I've grown and who I am now and culturally and all that stuff. Yeah, this is getting far afield, but I've always thought that's like, it's a strange thing. We don't kind of talk about like the, the, the older man who's attracted to younger women. I've never gotten the you're 40 and she's 20. You exist in different universes. There's some, there's something, uh, how are you spending time together?

28:18Do you know what I mean? Like what? So, So I always thought I always found it remarkable and probably should have also seen more alarm bells. But it was like this was a person who was incredibly smart, incredibly successful, incredibly wealthy, incredibly powerful, incredibly stressed out. And he wanted to be surrounded by what were effectively children. There is a Michael Jackson-ness to it where you are clearly running from a kind of a real life. Yes, for sure. Yes. Neverland. Yeah. Exactly. Right. And the Playboy Mansion is a version of Neverland and the house was a version of that. Yes. Yes.

28:58The big house. I lived on just down from Apex Drive. I lived downtown. And at one point, and again, these things all seem like they make sense. He was like, I'll pay you to move closer to me. And he gave me like$5 ,000 to move to this house where I could see his house from my house. Yes. And I was like, I never even like, It was obviously so he could call me at two in the morning and be like, I need you. And I'd have to go up there. And it was never urgent. There was never anything important. It was always just something that a person with better boundaries would have waited until the next day to type in an email or whatever.

29:37But but then the the weird part about sort of those dynamics is there's the the person who doesn't have good boundaries. and then the person who doesn't recognize that the other person, you know what I mean? Like, why would you want to live close to your boss? That's insane. Yes, yes. And so it's this mutually reinforcing dynamic that happens. Yeah, absolutely. Definitely. It's so weird. And only youth would fall for that. Yeah, because an older person would have kids or a spouse or hobbies or, you know, they would live in Northridge because they couldn't afford to live in L.A. And they were different.

30:16Commute it. Like there would be all these things that would make that not. They would never answer the phone at 2 a.m. When your boss is calling. Well, so I think that. So I feel like I kind of got saved in the sense that. And I never did anything that I. You know, I never did anything that got me in trouble. I never like got sucked into it. I never like. I never went too far in. Because one, I always wanted to be a writer. So I always had this other stuff going on. And I didn't really want a job. You know what I mean? Like the whole point was like, how do I not have a job? Yes. and then I I had I'd been with my wife how long I'd been with my wife maybe a year we weren't married but we've been dating a year and we stayed together the whole time we're still together now so like I through your American apparel experience yeah oh my gosh wow um so so because of that I never like it it there was I never could have lived in the house I never wanted to live in the house.

31:09I never wanted to do any of the things that I think people sort of told themselves were the unpaid benefits of working there. And in fact, I had to steer clear because I didn't want to get in trouble. And so it was like, it just sort of set up these guardrails that I think - One foot in the real world. Yeah. But if you're 22, a man or a woman, you're just like, you don't have anything going on. And so you're like, this house is nicer than my house or whatever. you know um or you you the whole structure is designed to sort of alienate and disconnect you from stuff you're traveling you're staying absolutely not even in your own hotel room it's just i was so disconnected even from my family like that moment in time i wasn't going home i was sort of like avoiding their calls because i was so uh just that was my world my did you feel like you were a really important like career woman i was the most important one next doing their hiring.

32:09I mean, yeah, I was totally deluded. In the sense of like, like you were, you had a cell phone and it was ringing all the time and you had, you were traveling for things that you would have to work your way up a corporate hierarchy at a normal company to get to do. And all of a sudden you're like, you're, it's like you're, you're playing pretend. Like I was the director of marketing of a company that I had no business being that, but I, I had the keys to the car, you know? Yeah. And yeah, people were making my travel arrangements for me. I was flying to new cities to scout locations. Like, what did I know about which storefront was going to be the best location?

32:48Like, I had no idea. I had no, but I mean, this one's good. It's near the Apple store. Okay. Yes. Yes. So you can have the cognitive dissonance there as you go. You have total imposter syndrome. Right. Like I have no business being there. I have to quit. This is insane. Or you go, actually, I am qualified to do this. And this is not insane. This is different. But actually, the old way of doing is crazy. This is actually the best way to do it. And I'm special. And he, they saw me. Oh, yeah. And that's that's what it is. That's what it was for me. I think that's what it was for a lot of girls. Yeah.

33:27Yeah. Right. You're you you feel chosen. And then that blinds you to the signs that maybe this is more random than you'd like to admit or based on something else you would like not to admit. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. It's fascinating. It's totally. And I think people should hear about it because it doesn't it's not like, oh, this is this weird thing that these two people experience. But this is also how people get into weird industries that they don't understand is how people back political candidates. They, you know, or take jobs. You tell yourself it's going to be different for me. You tell yourself, oh, I'm not like those other people.

34:07It's different. And what you're doing is you're just working. You're sort of dulling your conscience. You're dulling your sense of awareness. and you're just getting yourself deeper and deeper into something that in a lot of cases, it becomes really hard to get out, if not impossible. That's like any abusive relationship. Yes. Yeah. I think still being with my wife, I think we have had to work through stuff like, because we would get in arguments where she'd be like, that's insane. Yes. And I'd be like, what? This is my job, you know? Yes. And so it was like this process, like she probably feels gaslit by me, but I wasn't aware of what was, so like gaslighting, I feel like requires a certain awareness of what you're doing.

34:57It's like a person who's being fooled fools other people, right? Yes, yes. And so there's this weird dynamic that it's taken me a long time to have to process and get out of. You were so fortunate to have someone who wasn't in the company, which is, you know, he encouraged us to date within the company because of reasons like that. Yeah. There's a podcast about American Apparel where there's this heated debate. I forget who it is or I don't think I knew the woman, but she was defending herself or just talking about working for American Apparel. And her partner was in the other room. And he's like, I'm sorry, but I have to interject.

35:32And he's the voice of reason. He's saying – and she's like – her point is you don't understand because you're not there. You don't know what's really going on. Sure. And that's, you know, that's what I would have said too. Yeah. It's so obvious to anyone looking at the situation what's going on, but you are so wrapped up in these cult dynamics and your sense of purpose and tying your identity to the way that you're making money, which is something that I will never do again. And, you know, I really conflated my the way I paid rent with my identity. And when it's so funny that money is even entering here because you're making like 40 grand a year.

36:12Like you're not. I never made it to 40. I think I topped out at like thirty two thousand dollars. Yeah, that's what I made when I left. Which was more then. But but like, yeah, it's not still not enough. Well, yeah, you would you would sense from the outside that people were sort of debasing themselves or doing things that are. potentially have ramifications later in your career, you go, oh, it's for the money. And usually money is way down on the list of motivating factors. Like you go, why are these people working for this? Yeah, this political candidate or why are people working in this industry?

36:47Money is part of it, sure. And some industries more than others. But usually it's a lot less than you think. Even like porn, they're not cleaning up. There's other things that have happened first that get you to rationalize it and be okay with it and even find a positive good in it. And then the money is just, maybe the money is the one you tell yourself because it's the, the most logical and the most socially acceptable even, but it's not even the case. Yeah. So true. Like, it's not like there were private jets or like, you know, you go, oh, I'm staying in a company apartment. And it's like, what were they paying for that company apartment?

37:32Like$2 ,000. Like, you know, it's not, these weren't like your corporate condos that you see in like an episode of Billions or something. No, these were like dumps. I remember the apartment in San Francisco is in the Tenderloin. Oh, here I am in the Tenderloin. I was going to ask you, did you, maybe this is one area we intersected. Were you the one that scouted the location in the Mission District? in San Francisco. Did you pick that store? I don't think so. I did a lot of scouting up there for the, uh, um, the, like whatever was in the Stanford area. That was like Palo Alto. Yeah. Palo Alto. Okay.

38:13Yeah. No, I didn't, I don't think I did anything there. I, I had to stay, I stayed in the Tenderloin when I was doing the Palo Alto stuff. Cause like that's where the company apartment was. I have stayed in that apartment. Yeah. So my, one of my first, like, it was sort of you know into the furnace like or they throw you to the deep end i probably worked there for like three weeks and i get you have to go up to san francisco and do this thing i go what and they go so there's there's some that there's some like protest about one of the stores and what had happened was someone like you had gone like i think we should open a store here and so they'd signed a 10-year lease on a building in the mission district not the landlord probably knew this the whole time and saw him as an easy mark.

38:57But there was a stipulation in like the business district that you couldn't open, if you had more than 10 locations, you were considered a big box retailer and you had to go through a special approval process to exist in the mission district. It was a way to keep out like big corporations. They didn't want like a Walmart Yeah. And so, well, American Apparel have like a hundred stores at this point. And so they, but they just signed the lease. And so American Apparel just flying by the seat of its pants had put up signs. We're coming. And all of a sudden this huge protest, like, Hey, they're trying to break the rules, whatever.

39:36And so there was like a city, a city council meeting or whatever. And they just sent me a person who worked there like for three weeks. I'm like 21. They were just like, go fix this which was exciting on the one hand and then obviously later did i realize it was like a lamb being led to slaughter so i go up there and uh i was they told me i had five minutes to speak and uh i get up there first and um i forget how it went it was like it was supposed to start a certain time we had to wait all this time and you're just seeing like hundreds of people are just lining up to speak. And you can see a picture of me.

40:16I'm wearing like a gray American apparel button up and it's just like black, just down the side, like sweated totally through this shirt. And I get up there and I'm supposed to speak for like five minutes. They go, actually, there's so many people you have two minutes. And so I get up there, I speak for two minutes. What did you say? You know, like we didn't know, like, I don't know, like they made, I wrote some speech, right. That, that I'm sure nobody had approved. I had no idea what I was doing and give this speech and then like okay uh that's the you know the representative from american pro you sit down here and um now we'll hear from the community and then in my recollection like 200 people spoke one right after another all directing their very angry comments directly at me not a single person spoke in favor of it and and then of course the store never opened and uh the company took a huge bath.

41:10The mission has now since been totally gentrified. But I just remember going, this is like, like you're talking about, it's like you're peeling out these masturbator signs. Like I'm, this is like my first month on the job. And I'm like, this is where I'm going to continue working. This is a good place to work. This is all normal. Nothing's on fire. And I never thought about it again until like years later. And I was like, what was that? Yeah. Yeah. Yes, yes, yes. It's so funny. Yeah, and it was just some kid signed the lease and then another kid cleaned it up. Yep. You know, that's just how it was.

41:50I used to think it was a, you know, I had only been there maybe a month or two before Dove was like, go to New York and hire. Just go to New York and hire. Go tomorrow. And I'm like, what does that mean? Where do I stay? You know, just go to New York. And then once I got to New York, they were like, okay, go start location scouting. Here's a car. Just drive, you know. and um that i used to think it was like a trial by fire but really it was just because the company was growing so rapidly they just needed bodies to do these positions and i was sort of responsible and here you go and and it felt good it made me feel good yeah i interpreted it as i am the one who can do this yes you don't go this is a bad way to run a company and the reason i'm being hired to do it is because all the other people would never accept this job.

42:40Do you know what I mean? Like this is, they'd be like, I'm not going to work there. That company is circling the drain. Like they would have seen what that meant. To me, it was so exciting. I'd spent a year working at the Urban Outfitters headquarters and it was just, you know, like dismal beige colored corkboard, like boss and a button down. Um, everyone was significantly older than I was. I was working for the e-commerce department, which was sort of like the redheaded stepchild of the moment. Like it was the catalog was important in the stores. And it was so boring and miserable. And I felt, you know, we were selling t-shirts that said voting is for old people and a board game called Getopoly.

43:20It was like, I knew this is not me. This is not who I am. I have to get out of here. So then going to this other company, which seemed so revolutionary and was growing so rapidly and was the total opposite of that work environment was so incredibly seductive to me. So the unraveling or how everything was so crazy, that just fired me up even more. Well, it's hard when it's working to be like, this is not how it should be done. Because it's not like you had started your own, you know,$100 million apparel company and you're like, there's a better way to do this. You're just like, that way was horrible.

43:59Sort of, you know, sort of corporate suit, you know, bureaucracy, then you go over here, you don't realize there's all these reasonable solutions between the two. The choice is not between like tyranny and anarchy. There's somewhere right in between that most successful companies are operating at. But you don't know that because you haven't worked there. Yes, because you're 20. Yeah. And it's also boring. So that's not talked about. Yeah. Right. Like the way most people operate does not enter the conversation because it's by definition unremarkable. No, absolutely. Yeah. Another thing people don't realize, how could you stay?

44:38It was a really fun job. It's true. It was an unbelievable amount of fun. You know, the people that I met there are still some of my closest friends. And, you know, what I wanted to talk about with you is sort of the idea of regret. And sometimes at readings, people will say, if you had to do it all over again would you do it it's always like a gen z person and i'm not really a regrets type of person um and i would i would totally have done it again yeah you you're you were in a little deeper i think uh i can you know uh i don't know i want to know what you thought about that no regret is a hard word because i think we take that as meaning you sort of disavow that it happened and you're Like that you.

45:23It's regret. Regret is almost I think I'm reluctant to go. I regret it. I would do it differently in the sense that you're saying like you don't like where you ended up. But I was talking to this woman. Her name is Dr. Edie Eager. She's this Holocaust survivor. I was talking to her about something and she said I was dealing with a different situation I had regret for. And she was like, I'll give you these magic words. And she's like, the magic words are, if I knew then what I knew now, I would do things differently. Right. And so it's like, if I had awareness of certain things, I would have made different decisions.

46:01but I have the awareness I have now because of the decisions that I made and the things that I learned I learned so much about human nature and people it was you know it it's like going back in time and you know like living at Versailles or something you you just you're like oh this is a a fundamental part of the human psyche like the way that you know sort of hangers on sort of circle around a powerful person and how cults of personality work. And, you know, and so like that taught me so much, then I have this kind of, it's more like I have some embarrassment about the fact that I, it took me so long to understand what it was and what it was happening.

46:47Do you know what I mean? Sure. No, absolutely. You say something in one of your pieces, like, you know, you learned so much about yourself and how you respond to things. And it is, I mean, it certainly was a character defining event for me. Yes. Talking to some of my friends who have relationships with Dove and still do to some extent, they're like, yeah, you know, sometimes people will ask me, you know, what'd you do before this? And I'll say American Apparel and they'll say, oh, and I just kind of keep my mouth shut. You know, they're embarrassed. Yes. Well, and then you see, yeah, you see people who still haven't managed to swim free.

47:22Oh, I know. Oh, okay. So I have some regrets, but I feel good that I'm not that. You know what I mean? Yes. You've got to grade it on a curve of how other people handled it. Yes. It's so true. Well, maybe not most, but a few of the girls that I write about in Stricties are still with him, still living with him. It is remarkable. I thought you did it very well in the book. You're talking about how you basically have this experience. You're like, I got to get out and you go to get out. And then you sort of test the market and you realize, oh, it's harder to get out than I thought. And it's not as good.

48:01And you come back. I think that's really important because when people get out of things or they walk away from careers, we tend to see it as this sort of epiphany moment that where all became clear, you got moral clarity and then you walk away. And it's not like that at all. No, that's a very idealistic Hollywood way of looking at things that some people say. Yeah, no, I agree. Have you read The Harder They Fall? No, I haven't. It's this novel by Bud Schulberg. I thought I'd read you this passage. I read this. My understanding was that I read this right before I left American Apparel, which was in...

48:39I left to write my first book in 2011, but they were basically like, what if we just kept paying you and you didn't actually leave. So I stayed for another three years. I left in 2014 after Dove was, which I can get into. But so I left in 2014. So if you had said, when did you read the book that helped you realize why you shouldn't work there anymore? It must have been like around then, right? It should have been in 2014 or should have been in 2011 when you made the decision to leave. Because here's this passage. This is like the last page of the book. Let me see.

49:13He says, the worst of them all, the biggest heel of them all, the only one who knew right from wrong and kept his goddamn mouth shut. The only one who knew the score, knew what was going on and still kept his hands in his pocket. And this is a publicist who's like, starts working for a fighter that's propped up by the mob. And then he says, I knew the goddamn trouble with me. I thought enough brains to see it and not enough guts to stand up to it. Thousands of us, millions of us corrupted, rootless, career ridden, good hearts and yellow bellies, looking for living out our lives for the easy buck, the soft birth, indulging ourselves in the illusion that we can deal in filth without becoming the thing we touch.

49:55So I would have said, obviously, I read this. And then I left shortly thereafter. And so I was going to write about that a couple years ago. And so I went, I was like, well, let me get the date. So I was like, I knew I bought it on Amazon. So I pulled up the Amazon release, you know, I type in the heart of the fall. And it goes, you bought this book in September of 2008. Oh my God. Like a year after I started. And that's when I read it too. So I read it. And so I would have thought all this stuff happened. And then I read the passage and the light goes on. I make all the connections. In fact, the exact opposite happens.

50:33I read it at the beginning and then all this stuff happens. So we have this sense that there's this moment where you get the clarity and it's not that at all. And in fact, most people who turn, who become government witnesses or walk away from cults or whatever it is, it's not only not glamorous, it's usually even kind of a shameful, like ran out with their tail between their legs. it's only later that we're like oh i get and and so that's actually given me a lot of empathy and sympathy now like it just matters that you changed your mind it just matters that you got out it just mattered that you stopped doing it i'm not going to expect you to be perfect because i know it's really fucking hard to change your mind and to look back on past decisions you made and go i shouldn't have done them yeah

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52:50Trust me, your body will thank you for this investment in better sleep, shipping to many countries worldwide. See details at 8sleep.com slash Daily Stoic. The world is full of tours. But you don't choose a Toyota truck to follow the beaten path. You choose it to find the places in between. The detours, where each adventure pulls you toward the next. And wrong turns to not right. So why would you ever take a tour when you could take a detour? Toyota Trucks. Yes, the whole thing has made me so much more sensitive or aware of, you know, people's bad behavior in the past. I'm just not as judgmental.

53:44I'm not as judgmental as I was when I was 20, when I had everything figured out, when, you know, I could spot, you know, racism and sexism a mile away. It's just not that easy when the whole, like, cultural canvas around you is obscuring everything. And when you need to make rent next month, you know, people are like, I would have walked out of there. Like, I'm sure Becky on Goodreads, like, yeah, you would have right away, you would have been out of there. But who was going to pay your rent? Like, I wasn't going back to Philadelphia. Yes. You know, I was not going to admit defeat. I was way too proud.

54:15And I stayed because I had to. No, I remember even when I did leave, like, the American Barrel had very good health insurance. And then, you know, when you leave a job, you do COBRA, right? And so all of a sudden you're paying, it was like$800 a month. And like, thankfully, I did have something else. But I remember thinking, oh, this is why, you know, if I was in a different place and had done things differently, I wouldn't have been able to leave. Yep. There's this there's this idea in Upton Sinclair's writing. First up, he has that that great quote. It's very hard to get someone to understand something with their salary depends on them not understanding.

54:58Right. Which is the essence of working at American Apparel or working for a certain political party or getting sucked into this or that. Like, you don't want to see it because your paycheck depends on you not seeing it. But he also has this idea. He calls it like the dress suit bribe. And basically he's saying like he's talking about some person who has to dress up in fancy clothes to work in finance or something. It's funny he's talking about this like 100 plus years ago. But he's like, you know, you see yourself paying, he says, you know, five cents to get your shoes shined. he says but you don't see yourself as someone who is paid to be a person who has their shoes shined right and so you know you don't think like one of the things i was always hesitant about and i think it saved me but other people were less careful you don't realize all the different things that are happening along the way that are actually choices they're actually you're actually getting bought and you don't realize it and it's hard to get out from it yes right you can't you you get a nicer apartment right you buy an expensive engagement ring you you know you uh you get in a fight with your parents about having the job and that and now your identity but also your lifestyle is now at risk if you were to change your mind about what you're doing yes No, absolutely.

56:21There's in one of the reviews of Striptease, the writer quotes Margaret Atwood. It's amazing what someone can, I'm butchering this, but it's amazing what you can get used to provided there are a few compensations. That is the story of American Apparel for me, why I stayed. there's a if we're just quoting literature back and forth through there's a scene in the great Gatsby where uh Gatsby goes to Nick and he says like hey I'm working on this thing um maybe you could do me a favor and I think there's a little bit of money in it for you and Nick has a vague sense of what Gatsby does and and he doesn't kind of approve and and he says like I always reflected later in life that my entire future hinged on me politely declining that, like that I didn't accept the offer was a direction shift in my life.

57:23Because what happens is people go, hey, can you do this? We think of bribes as like, here's an envelope of cash, right? But instead at American Apparel, it was like, hey, I'll co-sign a lease for you, right? Or, hey - You need a car? Yes, yes. You need a reliable car? Right. Yes, I do. Yes, and so it's now you owe that person something and the dynamic is very hard to shift. You talk about this. You had this experience that in a sane universe would have resulted in people being fired or lawsuits being filed. And instead, the resolution is like, do you want a 1996 used Mercedes-Benz sedan? Yes. From my fleet.

58:15Yes, yes, yes. Do you want an apartment? You can pick it out. It has to be in Miami where you don't live and don't want to live. Right. And I'm offering you a year lease on it. Like, it's not an asset that you get to keep. You know what I mean? It's not like, let me solve your conscience with an appreciating asset. It's like, let me actually indenture you more towards me for a set period of time. Absolutely. Yeah, you don't, like, I remember at one point he had some relationship with like a car dealer and he would co-sign, and then like, so we would sign these leases for people. And I remember like thinking, like these people are signing it all away for like three years of a Kia, you know?

58:59Again, it wasn't. These weren't like Ferraris. These were. And so you end up the compensations don't. We all like to think like my price is, you know, in the millions of dollars. But your price is actually just like, oh, yeah, I don't I don't like flying in coach. And then then they have you. Yeah, that's so true. and then and then because they have you then you do things that you feel guilty about or that you have attachments to yeah and then you are complicit so now you can't get out absolutely even down to i remember he would say you want clothes take what you want this stuff is pennies to me it's nothing take what you want you know at the time it felt so special and it it it does sort of um it ingratiates you you you're you're in it you're thankful yeah well and and so you you have that and then the other i i was struck by the scene you're talking about in the book where like you see someone in a photo shoot that you recruited and so and the you now see those shoots a little differently than you than you did when you first started and so i imagine there's kind of a guilt slash a I'm part of this feeling now.

1:00:20Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Oh, definitely. I mean, I hired hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of people. You know, I, that was one situation where I really, you know, I knew the girl, she was so young when I hired her. And here are these photos with the infamous white duvet, you know, just about a year later. Yeah. And, but, you know, So I do – I feel bad about that. But really, you know, there's definitely some like Gen Zers who stand up at these readings. Like, you know, actually, you're complicit and you brought all those – how many women, you know, were – but I mean, really, that is just putting all the – like at the time, I was hiring for the biggest – you know, people don't realize how big the company was.

1:01:05Sure. Everyone wanted to work there. towards the end, I mean, I was hiring for mall stores. Yeah. You know, the vast majority of people I hired would, their only contact with Dove would be, you know, on a conference call. Sure. And I think that to say, you know, you're to blame and you were part of this when I was so young and wrapped up in this systemic patriarchal capitalist system is just another of those sort of idealized Hollywood things because really I was hiring for a huge store and the responsibility was on Dove's shoulders not to date these high schoolers, not to abuse his employees.

1:01:50It's not about me hiring people to work. Essentially, it was like the gap. Yeah, no, I mean, it's a blurrier line between victims and victimizers and there's a hierarchy of them, right? Yeah. And and it's it's I'm pointing out more. I think that you're just you just feel yourself becoming part of this thing. And then it's easier for you to think the thing is OK than to think, oh, I'm part of the problem. Absolutely. Yeah, for sure. And so so it's a carrot and a kind of a stick thing, right, where it's like you have all these benefits of doing it. And it's hard for you to see what's happening. And then in the moments where you start to feel guilt, you realize, oh, if I kind of tug at this thread or if I look too hard in this mirror, I'm going to have to feel some feelings that I don't want to feel.

1:02:40So it's easier just to keep going. Oh, absolutely. Or it's easier just to make certain rules inside it that you feel okay with instead of going, but the whole fucking thing is not okay. Like I told myself I was staying at a certain point, especially after I was like, I'm going to be a writer. I got this book deal. Why am I still here? I mean, there, there is, I heard someone say that heroin and a salary are the two hardest, you know, addictions to quit, you know, to just go like, Hey, I'd like to not be paid anymore is a hard thing to do at 25. Um, but, but you're isolated in a new city. um yeah so so i i think but what i told myself is i can protect these people like these are my people i had this group that i had hired or had come into my department that i was the one dove talked to me and not to them right and if i went away then how long would they last or what unpleasant experiences would they have so you you you go oh i'm doing it for this i'm one of the good guys inside the system or whatever.

1:03:53And you don't go, what kind of system has good guys? What kind of system needs good guys inside of a bad system? You don't think that. You just go, hey, I'm like you go, I'm the person who's pulling papers off Trump's desk to keep us in NATO or whatever. And it's true. Somebody does have to do. I heard this great line. It was apparently they tell us people in law school, they go, everyone is entitled to a lawyer, but it doesn't have to be you. Right. So, but, but that's what you do. You go, if I don't do it, someone worse will do it, or I'm doing it and I'm doing it differently than these other people.

1:04:29And that's the, that's ultimately the lie that helps you rationalize what feels like not doing what feels like a very scary thing that by the time you end up doing it, leaving, whatever, you're like, wait, this is what I was scared of. This is just regular life. Like it's not that big a deal, But that's the dynamic that I think keeps people complicit. Yes. Oh, definitely. When I left, I mean, I stayed for the company for three years. You know, Striptease covers my first year. And you would think anyone would leave after that year. No, I stayed for three years. I was laid off at the start of the recession.

1:05:01And I cried. I was so sad. I couldn't imagine my life without American Apparel, without my friends. I was like totally lost. Yeah, you cry for losing a job that you had tried to quit, you know? Oh, yeah, yeah. After, yeah, I just fell in deeper and deeper. I, you know, it was the devil I knew. I certainly didn't want to go back to working for a company like Urban Outfitters, which was corrupt in its own way. And, yeah, I stayed. And then I went into reality television. A really great, you know. But again, I have learned that lesson where I don't conflate my identity with what I do to pay the rent.

1:05:46Yeah, you think it's going to be so awful. And in fact, it's not. Like the people I interviewed, Adam Kinzinger, the Republican congressman who was on the January 6th commission. He was just talking about it. He's like, my life is way better now. But he's like, you don't. There's something about not wanting to be an ex-congressman. He's like, actually, it's more lucrative. My conscience is clear. I have more time. I get to see my family. I can live where I want. But there's this, the status quo bias is such an enabling factor. Oh my gosh, absolutely. I felt such shame. Like all of my friends who were, most of them sleeping with Dove, you know, they weren't going anywhere.

1:06:25They were staying at least for the next, you know, five to 10 years. I mean, for me, it was like, I was worried about getting fired from a job. I was trying to quit, you know, like, like I wanted to be a writer. I moved like so basically I I called them and this would have been like March of 2011 and I said look I'm gonna write this book it's gonna be about media you're gonna be partly in it but like I this is what I'm here for like this is what I always this is what I wanted to do and he's like you got to talk to to Tina you probably knew Tina um uh he's like you got to talk to Tina she'll she'll figure out the details with you and Tina was like nobody will care just we'll reduce your salary.

1:07:04You just keep right. You go live where you want to live, write your book and we'll need you on some stuff. What ended up happening is like they basically I basically just negotiated a salary decrease and I still had to do the same job. So like I thought I was pulling something over on someone. In fact, I was getting but like that's the Dove Charny way. I remember when he put me on salary at 30, he was like thirty thousand dollars a handshake. I was like and then later I was like, wait a minute, thirty thousand dollars. And I'm working overtime every day and I'm stuck here in Florida working with him.

1:07:34Shit. But it felt so great. $30 ,000. Yeah. Yeah. It's like, here's a way that I don't have to pay you overtime. Yeah. That's what it was. Before I was making way more before an overtime traveling. I was an hourly. I totally screwed myself. And there I was for the next two years on that salary. But then things would happen. And I like, you know, moments that I should have left. And I didn't because I didn't want to get fired from the job that I literally had already quit in my head like it was all found it was all house money at that point and still you don't want to walk away from the because it's just different quitting and getting fired are different oh absolutely you have a choice in one even though rationally they're the exact same thing and and they're both getting you what you say you want which is free and clear of this yes yes yes so so interesting yep uh or that's the other thing is like when you find yourself like i talk about this encourages calling, you find yourself being asked to do things that you shouldn't do, you know, are not right.

1:08:35You go, well, I don't, if I say no, if I don't do it, I'll lose my job. And you're like, why do you want to keep a job where you can get fired for doing this thing that you know you're not supposed to do? Yeah. Just for doing what you think is right. Yeah. Absolutely. Like, why is this an issue at all? Those were dark days at the end. It's so crazy. You had to deal with all that. It was not. I mean, he basically descended into insanity for a lot of the reasons that you predict in the book, which is doesn't sleep. No, the sleep deprivation is something you talk about that. I mean, that is really the crux of so, so much of it.

1:09:08And my sister's a clinical psychologist. She diagnoses him. Oh, with some sort of hypomania? Yes, yes, yes, exactly. A lot of CEOs have that. You're up all the time. It's called hyper, oh, I can't believe I can't think of it right now. Yeah, it's not ADD. It's something, it's a sort of, it's almost like a bipolar kind of energy without the crashing. That's exactly, yes. You know, does he eat? I'm like, no, you know, I really can't think of many situations I've ever seen him eat. It's always the Nescafe. You know, does he sleep? No, I see him the next morning. He's wearing the same clothes. He's been talking on the phone to me all night.

1:09:43Of course he hasn't been sleeping. Yeah. I mean, you don't realize you're not supposed to be getting calls from the CEO of a company. Hyperthymic temperament. Does that sound right? I think that's what you call it. That's what it is. Yeah. Yeah. I would get these calls at like three or four in the morning and we would talk and it'd never be, it'd never be like the store is on fire. You know, it'd be like, I was thinking, what if we, you know, it's like some, and I realized it was two things. One, it was a control. It was a, I'm always working. I expect you to always be working. I came, this is one of my little tricks is that every Christmas, Thanksgiving whatever I would call him in the morning I would and I would just call him for some nonsense yeah and then he would think I was working and then he would leave me alone oh that's so interesting but but um it was a control thing and then it was something that only now that I'm older and I'm my own life I find to be quite sad which is like he literally had no one to talk to He was, it was a terribly sad life.

1:10:42And he was, he was, it could have been anyone that he was calling, but he was just talking to someone until he fell asleep. Because if he had silence, then the silence might lead to self-awareness. Self-reflection, yeah. And that would, that was the deal breaker. Yes. Those late night calls. It seemed like mostly he would call men late at night. I'm not really sure why, but my other friends who managed stores, he, the manager of one of the Hollywood stores, he got those calls in the middle of the night too. He was not really a high level employee. He was just someone that Dove liked and he would get those late night calls of nothing important, just business nonsense.

1:11:23It was very interesting. Yeah. When I started my own company, I, I would still do, I would sometimes call people. I'd be like, oh, I have this idea it's 11 30 i call someone and my wife was like you can't do that that's not normal like that's abusive you know i was like oh i guess but i was like but i've been getting calls and it's like oh wait yeah that's this isn't what anyone signed up for and it's and the people that will accept it are not the people that you want working with yeah oh that's interesting you know what i mean like you want people who have options yes and people who have options don't want to be called at two in the morning.

1:11:56Yeah. Unless it's important. Yeah. No one wants to be business all the time. And that is Dove Charney. I sold the option for this book and they're writing the script now, the strike's over. And they were like, we need some warm, fuzzy Dove moments. Yeah. And I'm like, warm, fuzzy Dove moments. Like when I look back over the three years, I can't remember any conversations that were not about work except for one. There was one time that he talked to me about something social. We were in Miami. It's the climax of this book. It's rough, working like crazy. Just the two of us in the store, this store that was on Ocean Avenue, a store that is not built for retail.

1:12:35It is just bars and restaurants. And he signed this 10-year lease on this incredibly expensive storefront that we were selling like two t-shirts and a towel a day. Probably because he visited that street when he was a teenager and it was implanted in his memory that that's somehow the American dream is to have a store on Ocean Avenue. A block away from the Versace mansion, which literally was a block away. You know, right on the beach, right on the beach. And where was I going with this? Oh, yeah. So we were working, working. I was so exhausted. And he looks over at me and he says, do you watch The Sopranos?

1:13:12I was like, oh my God, he watches television? Like, and then I, you know, I was thinking, oh my gosh, does he relate to Tony? you know like the bad guy with the heart of gold you know he watches the sopranos huh and so I'm sort of ready for him to and I'm like yeah I watch the sopranos I think it might have been uh the last season it might have been that that year this is 2006 maybe or it is in 2006 but I'm not sure where sopranos were but um I so I'm like whoa is it about Tony like what what could he see and he says that Melfi man she is hot I'm like oh god yes the psychiatrist is hot which at the time you know Melfi's you know an older woman I wasn't so she wasn't so hot to me but um now I see like yeah Melfi is hot like still even in his even in just talking about television it was like back down to it wasn't anything deeper than that

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