Matthew McConaughey on Family, Fame, and Livin' Authentically

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1:52Welcome to the Daily Stoic Podcast, where each weekday we bring you a meditation inspired by the ancient Stoics, a short passage of ancient wisdom designed to help you find strength and insight here in everyday life. And on Wednesdays, we talk to some of our fellow students of ancient philosophy, well-known and obscure, fascinating and powerful. With them, we discuss the strategies and habits that have helped them become who they are and also to find peace and wisdom in their lives.

2:38Hey, it's Ryan. Welcome to another episode of the Daily Stoic Podcast. Sometimes these intros, I record them long in advance. Sometimes they're basically real time. But I guess I'm recording this on Tuesday. I woke up this morning and there was like a half inch, inch of snow on the ground, which is pretty unusual for Austin. There's also a raccoon on the porch in the trap we set for last night. Actually, I caught one last night and then one after we went to bed. So I had to rehome two raccoons. I did one before bed last night. And then I bundled up the kids, scraped all the snow off the front of the truck.

3:16We got in the car. We drove it down about a mile and a half down the road and let the raccoons go. Hopefully they find somewhere else to live other than under our porch. And then we drove around the ATV, checked on the lakes and the cows and the donkeys. Don't get many snowy mornings. Don't get many fresh tracks in Austin, Texas. We had one in 21, and we actually got to snowboard on a little chunk of the one little hill on our farm. Not quite that severe this morning, all of which feels very far from a warm evening back in early December when the one and only Matthew McConaughey came out to the Painted Porch and did the podcast in person.

4:00Matthew's been on the podcast a couple of times. We recorded one remotely during the pandemic when Greenlights was first coming out. And then I think we did it again when the journal came out remotely. That was a nice two-hour interview. But his people had reached out and said, hey, Matthew's doing some promo for the book. Would you want to do an event at the bookstore and the podcast? And I said, are you kidding? I've known him now. I guess it's like almost five years. But we never met him in person. We just, we text and we chat every once in a while and share books. and he was nice enough to blurb The Daily Dad and is encouraged, Colin, I think.

4:34Anyways, he's been a nice friend and I'm a big fan of his work, obviously. And I think Greenlights is a really good book and it's been a massive hit. It sold like six or seven million copies, which, you know, celebrity memoirs don't. I was telling him, we sort of did a walkthrough of the bookstore after and I was giving him some different books that I thought he would like. And I was telling him that I never know what section of the bookstore to put Greenlights in because it's, is it self-help? Is it memoir? And like, depending on it, sometimes I go, I think we should move it over here. I've probably moved it three or four times.

5:07So it's kind of a book that doesn't really fit in a category, which is the best. You want to kind of invent a category. You want to do your own thing. It's a great book. And this nice little chat, we talked about the things we've talked about on all the different episodes, but it's always unique and interesting talking to the one and only Matthew McConaughey. Greenlights is now available in paperback. I think we sold out of all our signed copies almost immediately. So sorry about that. But you can follow him at officiallyMcConaghey on Instagram and check out the Just Keep Living Foundation. And then I'll be bringing you part two of this episode on Saturday because then we went out and did the talk on the back porch.

5:46So I asked a few questions and then fans asked a few questions and we'll round it out with that later in the week. if you are in Austin or Texas, I hope you stay warm. We sent all the employees home last night and are trying to keep everyone safe. But I hope either it's warmer where you are or you're doing well.

6:10I almost wore the same jacket. I'm glad I didn't. You finally got to be weather where you can wear them. I know. Last three days have been great. A little crispiness out there. I swam in Barton this morning and it was like one of the first days where... The nice thing about Barton Springs is that in the winter, the water is warmer than it is outside because it's always the same temperature. It was like the first morning where I felt like that was true. You go into town? Yeah. How often? Every morning. You go to Barton Springs every morning? No, not every morning, but I go into town every morning.

6:37You drive me into Austin. Enjoyable morning ritual just like we start today? I mean, you do it for your kids. Yeah, so you're not like loving it. You're just like, that's just how it is? Yeah. Okay, so two hours of your day are driving? We trade. My wife's doing pickup today. We trade. Yeah. it's a lot you design your life and then you know life blows it and things blow up yeah i get to yeah look we we moved into town i got nine acres i'm looking at that other eight acres and someone's gonna man you need to build a barn i'm like yeah man i need to build a barn and i'm like what the fuck do i need a barn for yeah or man you need to got idea man cave over here i'm like yeah and i'm like to get away from who right but you need horses when you come in man you got horses running down I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

7:22All these bright ideas that then I'm on my own for. I'm like, I don't want to fucking barn. I don't want to make. So I was like, smaller space, got everything compact. And we are eight to 12 minutes from everything now. We've got the electric bikes. That's very nice. So we did the opposite as Austin's grown. We said, let's go get in it. Raise the kids on black tops and dirt roads for the first 12 years of their life. Right. So now let's go negotiate and hustle. It's easier if you go through life thinking about all your decisions as temporary, you know? You know Tim Ferriss, he talks about it's like, it's an experiment.

7:53We're going to do it for a couple of years. Yeah. So I'm trying to think, like, we love where we are. We moved out in the country. We live on a dirt road. We have cows. It's like the whole Texas thing. But yeah, I'm not sure how sustainable this drive thing is every day. It's nice. But then, like, we moved out here because it was close to Austin because nobody lived out here. But now everyone and everything has moved out here. So now there's traffic going in every morning. How old are you? My son's eight. So what's that? That's not middle school yet. He's in second grade. All right. So you got third, fourth, fifth.

8:26You got three more years there. Is there a middle school you might be able to go to out here? The school he's at is one through eight. But then my other son, he goes to school out here. We love it. He has this outdoor nature school thing. It's like amazing. Yeah. But now I got two kids in two different cities at two different schools. So it's like, I'm like a full-time Uber driver. With two different sets of friends. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So then all the parties every weekend are different, you know? Yeah. It's a lot. I understand that. Yeah. You have to travel for your job a lot, but not, and not like, like me, I travel a lot, but I'm like Miami on Thursday, but I'm, I leave at seven and I get back at midnight, but you have to leave and go set up shop for a while.

9:06How have you handled it? I kind of got that down. One, before we had kids, Camilla said, I'll have kids on one condition. You go, we all go. So every, there's never been a film I did where they didn't all come with. Right. Now that has meant Camilla had to work with the schools to go, we want to go to school here, but we're going to have to pull them. So we have a teacher that goes with us that goes and works with that school that they're in for a couple of weeks, learns with and has a contact. So when we go on the road, whether there's room in the house or like last time in Santa Fe, we got an office space downtown with the kids.

9:398, 9 a.m. went to school. To make it normal. The tutor was there. The tutor's up to date with the school of what they need to do. They go from 9 to 3, come home like a normal school day. Then Levi got a job on set in the camera department. So he was only doing school in the morning and working half days every day. And then sometimes we, you know, when they were younger, we go to New Orleans, we put them in Newman. Right. We put them in school. We were in Cleveland. We put them in school. We were in London. We put them in school in London. Wow. They had to wear the three-piece suit to take the scooters.

10:07You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. That's just been a, we've experienced, I mean, we've been experimenting because Camilla's kind of one that worked that up with the schools, how to make that happen. Yeah. They tried things like had a robot in class that would, that, you know, would follow the teacher. And basically it was an iPad and a robot's body, but Levi or the kids could come into the class and be in the classroom through a screen. And the teacher's talking to class and go, what do you think Levi? And would discuss things with him. So, and that kind of worked. You've talked about not taking jobs because they weren't creatively interesting and turned down a lot of money to do it.

10:41Have you not taken stuff because it would be disruptive to family and life? I did the opposite of that, what I just did. Film series that was going to be Georgia. Yeah. Right? We're like, no, it needs to be in Texas. Well, quite a few million dollars difference. Yeah. I needed it to be, I wanted it to be in Texas because my kids now, ninth grade, 10th grade. Right. Livingston down in whatever grade he's in, fourth, fifth. they're on the teams we're in that cycle now they're doing that they have a life they've got soccer practice in the morning they got drama in the afternoon they got strength dance and i'm going we've been away working mobile for so long right now i want to give them that consistency sure so i'm going to give money back pretty gracious palm from for this for the studio and i want to go okay we'll make it work in texas we're going to shoot in austin that was my main reasoning and i looked at the amount of money i was giving back which was a sizable amount i was like dude quality versus quantity on this the quality that that i want my you know but i still want to see the kids and i want to keep them in school for that four months sure here in my hometown i'll take that hickey yeah on the on the paycheck right if you're going to spend money on something that's a pretty valuable thing i think only get it once i think so yeah so it's gotten so what i'm saying is it's harder now for me to go before it was like dude sure tough yeah and they were cool with it yeah and they just we just did santa fe they were cool with it but boy i see i see him and they've all been kind of yearning for like can i get some consistency in my social circles and my sports and my drama yeah and i'm gonna like yeah you you're in a flow now stick to that so it gets harder as they get older right because they are involved with things that are more than just a whim sure you know what i mean and you know you are making more consistent friends that you'll be friends with next year and the year after we're younger the friends kind of change a little bit quicker and that their interest change sooner quicker you know well it's like experiences are great but at some point kids or adults you're like i just want to be in my place like i want to have my rhythm i want to have my routine i want to have my i want normal life not experience experience It's exhausting.

12:55At the same time, our family, I think, got so adept at the travel. We all go pick up and go. Have someone now. We know what we need. We know we need a house. I don't get hired unless it's like a studio. I go. My whole family goes. The dogs come. We need a nanny. We got somebody. You know, we're going. We need a house on the outskirts of town. And that's how it's going to be. And that's part of my package. We've gotten so good at that, though, that like we all laughed about it. We laughed at it last night. That's where we're the most relaxed. Is when you're somewhere else. Yep. Sure. And part of that is I'm probably more relaxed because when I go to act or something, it's a vacation for me.

13:32Yeah. You and I have talked about it. Singular focus. Sure. I have a reverence for my craft enough where that's all I focus on for three months. I feel like that's a worthy day every day. I get to see my kids at the end of the day. My wife goes, go out the door. Do not let go of your shoulder. Go conquer, kick ass. I got this stuff handled. So I'm really relaxed. I got one thing. and all my other work, all the other peripherals I have, my team knows the month and a half leading up before I go to work. Let's get those off the table. Let's anticipate. So you're not, I'm getting three emails a day.

14:03You also feel no pressure to reply to them. I think that's like, you're like, I'm here. This is the thing I'm, I think about like travel days. Like if I know I'm flying somewhere, I don't feel like I have to do anything else that day. Like I know my job is to get to point B and if I get anything else done, it's extra. It's bonus. But if I wake up at home, I'm like, I got to do all, I got to do all this stuff. Me too. Yeah. And then how much stuff at home, if you're upstairs or at the other end of the house and you want to go to the kitchen to get the mustard, you forgot, you're running into two other things that you didn't plan on that you're going to need to handle on the way.

14:38Someone's going to interrupt you to go, Hey, can you check this out? Oh, or you're going to see a busted sprinkler head. You're going to run into two more things. There's never, it's never a one, it's never a single destination and back when you're on the home home property so i think also you know it's that freedom that comes with you said a renter's mentality yeah i don't own any of this let's take care of it i don't own it and if something's broke i'm not going man don't i pay so and so to handle that or i bought that and didn't we get a warranty on that then so i don't think about shit when i'm in a rental car like i'm not even looking at the gas i'm not looking at the miles.

15:14I'm not looking if it's clean or dirty. I don't care if it's a nice car or not nice car. I'm like, this is the car I have. All I got to do is use it to get over here. Right. But when you're in your own car, you're like, oh, wait, I got it. How's this? Do I like this car? You know, you have like opinions about it. And there's something about happiness and peace, I think, that is rooted fundamentally. This is a very stoic thing about just not having so many opinions when you're just like, hey, my job, I'm acting right now. I'm in this place to do this thing. Nothing else really matters. So I don't have an opinion about what's happening back home.

15:48And everyone understands that they don't need my opinion or if they need it, figure it out yourself. And then I finish, you finish after three months and I'm like, okay, I'm about to go sit down with my laptop and catch up on all that stuff. And then my blood pressure's going up and I'm like, oh man, this is going to be a slog. This is going to take two weeks and it takes a day. unless you you know what email bankruptcy is what email bankruptcy is you just go i declare email bankruptcy mark everything as red and then i know people have done that i can't i wish i had the confidence and the security as a human being to do that i'm too worried about what i'm missing i still have stuff flagged from nine years ago of course i have shit i was like i'll deal with this after the pandemic you know it's like it's all there yeah i have a thing of notes on next to my dad's I'll show it to you when I go in there.

16:40I went to this like little conference, like right before, like the first week of March, 2020, I took all these notes of all the things I was going to do. That pad is just sitting there and I keep, this is going to be the week I'll get into it. Yeah. Not even, I don't even know why I went to the conference because I never even looked at the notes. Here we are four years later, four, five years later. Now, will you look up and find, if you don't look at that, if that gets, if that gets to the bottom of the deck over the next year, how many of those things do you think you've done a year? I mean, if someone threw it away, I don't think I even remember that I had the pen.

17:10But how many do you think you would do subconsciously? I don't know. I think I've done some, I guess I've probably done the important stuff and the rest of it's not important, but it's like why we, you know, it's like you get something from Apple and you're like, this is a nice box. I should keep this box. Listen, Tiffany. I got like a six-year-old iPhone box somewhere, I'm sure. But you actually don't need it. You just don't have the, there's something about us as like hunter gatherers that is like, I can't throw away this box. I could use this box or something. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Another version of that is when I'm working on a script, I get an idea.

17:43When I get the idea going, I'm writing that down because it's so particular and so genius. Yeah. And there's hundreds of pages. The next week, the next two weeks, the next three weeks, the next month, by the time I'm shooting, all those things that I thought were genius, I can throw away because they're so obvious. Yeah. Now that I'm like, that was not a novel. Well, it was a novel idea two months ago. Right. So I'm like, well, did you even need to work all that? Do you need to take those? And I'm going to remind myself, yes, you did. Because at the moment, you're right. It's just been ingrained now because you've been preparing and working that that's obvious.

18:18And boy, I'm like, make sure that's in bold print. And I start thinking all of my ideas should be in bold print. And you get to the end, you're like, no, they shouldn't. I don't even need them. Throw them away. I forget which Hemingway book it was, but there's one of them where he just got rid of the first two chapters. And you go, oh, is that a loss? And it's like, no, because the stuff that got started in the first two chapters informed all the other chapters. You just didn't need what became superfluous. It was like wheel spinning. So you get rid of it and you start in the shit and it's assumed.

18:48Right. Like that's one of the humbling things about creative stuff. Like I just went through this. I was looking for an old document that I had somewhere and I came across another document in a folder. So when you're cutting, I'm sure you went through this with your book. When you're cutting, you're like, I can't cut this. what i'll do is i'll take it out and i'll put it over here i'll use it for something later right so i found the document of things that i'd cut from the book telling myself i would go back to later and use and i'd forgotten that it even existed yeah yeah so you know yeah yes and i bet you there was nothing there that you're like i oh my gosh i left that out the book would it's not as complete as it would have been if i had that yes and there was nothing else that that stuff would ever work for it's just prologue to the thing i was making but it's hard you got to have the discipline to be able to do that.

19:34I'm fascinated with actors where it's like, you got to make up this story about the character, but nobody ever hears the story. It's just for you. And it's just in a hand movement. It's just in a famous line. All right. All right. All right. You know, like what all that is, it's all invisible to the audience, but it's, it's, it should be invisible, but it's actually not invisible. It's just not, it's obvious. Yes. Because you're like, well, that's who the character is. Or the best compliment an actor can get is after you're done, people on production go, dude, that's you. And you do another role that's completely opposite.

20:11That's you. You didn't see the work, as they say with athletes. You don't see the work. You didn't see the prep. You didn't see, oh, I got a planned move. Oh, I got a little thing I'm going to do. No, you don't see any of that. I've talked to you about this before, launch pad lines. You know, what are some days confused? that's what I love about those high school girls, man. I get older, but they stay the same age. That's a launch pad line. Look at that line. And that's when I looked, read that, and I went, who is that? That if that line's not an attitude, if that line's not a joke, if there's nothing, he's not trying to be cool, clever, if that's his MO on how he sees life, there's a way.

20:49That guy walks. That guy's walking. Is he walking head first, chest first, or midsection first? He's kind of leading. You know what I mean? are shoulders here is he this guy or is he is he this guy he's it tells you how they sit it tells you what he would buy in 7-Eleven if he's got kids at home what kind of music he listens to so you could theoretically cut that line and still get the essence of the character yeah yeah so it informed the acting of all the lines and then if at some point the director the editor's like hey we gotta cut that line for whatever reason it's still informed and shaped every other scene in the movie it did much more much more work than the line did yeah It informed how tight the doggone pants were.

21:31It informed, you know, there's a pinch hit or one necklace around. That's a Nugent T-shirt. It informed delayed blinks. It informed where he was, where he should not be, where he would not be. It informed, you know, those people that a character with that line, with that sort of perspective and philosophy of life, is not one of those people that intrude in your space. They're not soliciting. They're not looking to gather more to their way. They just are. Yeah. And if you want to come hang, yeah, there's general admission. Anybody can hang. But I'm not looking to like talk someone into – that guy's not looking to talk someone into understanding his way of life or looking for soldiers.

22:07Right. He's not soliciting his way. He's an island unto himself, which becomes one of the things that become very attractive about people. I love people that like don't and truth. They like are who they are. You're attracted to them. You're like, dude, you got your own thing going on, man. And whether I agree with it or not, I really dig that you're not needing me or you're not needing my affirmation to have more confidence in who the hell you are. Bravo. Now I'm even more behind you because people who are uniquely themselves love that. Yeah, there's this stoic. His name was Agrippinus, and he lived in the time of Nero.

22:41So this would have been a time where you're like, you don't want to upset the unstable, you know, vindictive tyrant. But he's sort of just uniquely himself. He'd get invited to stuff, and he would say no. And he was just himself, which sort of put him in the crosshairs. And someone asked, they go, you know, why, why don't you just go along? Why can't you just be like everyone else? And he said, he's like, look, a garment is, you take a sweater. He's like, there's all the white threads. And then he's like, there's the red thread in the stripe that makes it beautiful. And he's like, I'm the red thread.

23:13You're the white thread. I'm the red thread. And I like that idea of like, you got to be. Yeah. Yeah. We all have a part, but some of our parts is to be our unique selves.

23:31We just took our kids to an outdoor performance at The Nutcracker. They had a snow cone and then they went insane in the car ride home. And one of the things I try to remind myself when that's happening is that I don't control my kids' behavior, especially when they're too far gone like that. but I do control how I respond, right? That's stoicism, but it's also what Dr. Becky talks about. Dr. Becky is a clinical psychologist and a best-selling author, and she founded Good Inside, which is there to give parents practical, actionable tools for handling those everyday challenges with confidence. My wife introduced me to Dr.

24:07Becky's books. I love them. I've recommended them a million times. I've had her on the podcast. And as it happens, Dr. Becky is hosting two live Q &A events for good inside members. I am one of them. She signed me up for it about a year and a half ago. I've loved it ever since. On December 1st, you can join Dr. Becky for her How Not to Raise Assholes event, which is about avoiding entitlement and raising kind, empathetic kids. And on December 15th, she's hosting her How Not to Lose It Over the Holidays event, which I'm sure we could all use. As I said, I'm a big fan of Dr. Becky. She's been a great influence for me as a parent and just as a human being.

24:49And Daily Stoic listeners can join for 15 % off with code STOIC15. You just got to head over to goodinside.com to catch the events. Thanks to Toyota Trucks for sponsoring this episode. When I bought my ranch in 2015 out here in Bastrop County. I drove my car about halfway down the dirt road that we live on, thought this isn't going to work, stopped, parked it, walked the rest of the way home, borrowed my wife's car, drove into Austin and bought a truck. What I bought was a Toyota Tacoma. And this truck wasn't just transportation getting me to and from my house. It unlocked a whole different style of living for us, not just on the ranch, but in our little Texas towns.

25:31There were places I could go now that I couldn't go before, especially out here in the piney forests, through the fields, and on the unpaved roads like the one that I lived in. We got to go deep into the hill country's wild beauty. We've driven all the way out to East Texas. We've driven across the country. And by we, I mean not just my wife, but both my kids who I drove home from the hospital in that truck. Toyota trucks are built for those who understand that the best adventures happen when you're willing to veer off course, because you never know when you'll end up on a Toyota adventure detour.

26:09And of course, this is stoicism, too, because every detour, every obstacle is an opportunity. But it's helpful if you can handle the difficulty inherent in that. If you've got the resilience and the right companion to make it wherever the road takes you. Discover your uncharted territory. Learn more at toyota.com slash trucks slash adventure dash detours.

26:36I feel like you're someone, you kind of let your freak flag fly a little bit. You're like you. Try to. Yeah. Or I don't try to. Yeah, right. You know? You don't try not to. Right. Don't try not to. I'm not trying to hide it. Yeah. I mean, it's more relaxing that way. It's also, I think I get more done, more things that I want in life. Sure. um it's clear what i don't want it's clear my relationships it's kind of like if i'm not hedging my bet yeah play acting then i can read someone can read if they want sure my time and my relationship or not and i can read if they want if i want theirs or not i think this point was like beautiful things stand out you know like it is weird that we all are totally unique have unique dna would never exist before again and then we're like well what's everyone else doing i should do that right Do you know what I mean?

27:24Like there is something about, there's something kind of sad about the way we deliberately mute our colors or mimic other people's colors. yeah but we also it's wise i think to understand the machinations of how populace works how being in with the group works to understand the rules of each game knowing your zone and still being able to be yourself or still being yourself if you're playing a role to get what you want it's like uh the dylan thing he was like what is it like no don't go i don't know what all this be yourselves about man it's like you are what you create, man? We're all our creations.

28:03That's a form of being yourself by going, I'm a new creation every day. Yeah. Yeah, totally. Which you are. Right. If you want to be, you know, whatever part that is you're playing. The best ones, you don't see them playing a part, like going back to acting. In real life or in acting or athletics, you don't see the work. You don't see the, oh, there's a tell. Oh, I saw him do a thing. He played an attitude. He didn't play himself. You don't see those, you don't see those things. It's seamless. That person is kind of in a way, everything to everybody or almost everything to everybody. Well, to me, it's like, do you want to be the actor that gets the parts that Matthew McConaughey turns down?

28:43Or do you want to get the parts that they're offering to you because they want you? You know, it's like, it's better to be a category of one, to be a monopoly of yourself. But most of us go, I don't know. I'd rather just kind of get somebody else's leftovers. Right, right, right, right. And sometimes those leftovers are damn worth getting. But I hear you. When you're living and you feel like you're one of one. Yeah. You want to be the first person they ask because that's what they wanted. Not like the third, fourth, fifth, unlimited. But there's something safer about it, right? It's like, you know, hey, if I open a donut shop, like people like donuts, I'll have the donuts.

29:21You know, like there's something about just doing another version of a thing that a lot of people do. It's safer in one sense, but the ceiling is capped because you're never going to. But you've, I've been in positions where I was the third pick. Yeah. And I saw it. I was like, I'm going to show them why it should have been the first pick. Yes. Yes. For the next. Sure. I'm going to make sure I don't just dial this in, which I could connect all the dots and do it really well. Yeah. I'm going to do something that makes them go, who's that guy? Yes. I want him for first pick next time. Yeah. So it can be a ramp to a higher ceiling.

29:54Totally. But I think what you're saying is, I'm saying it's a lot easier to just sit there and go, yeah, let me get the leftovers and do what I can with it. Yeah. And mimic what the status quo would be for that. Well, in business, they have this idea, there's red oceans and there's blue oceans. Red ocean is where there's lots of competition, right? The water's all chummed up. And then you want to go to the blue ocean where there's no other boats it's just you right and like when i when i went to my publisher and i was like hey i want to write a book about an obscure school of ancient philosophy they were not like that sounds huge yeah you know but then it becomes then when it works then somebody else like i just saw the other day so i wrote the daily so someone just wrote a book called everyday stoic okay like it's the it's the same fucking book yeah right and so i'm sure it'll do okay because some people will accidentally think it's the book that I wrote.

30:46Right. Right. Or like I remember one time I went on Instagram and my mom was following like Stoic Daily or something. Like she was following the, she was like, oh, I heard what you're doing. I was trying to follow it. And she just got confused and she got like a copycat. When you're a copycat, there's a big target and you can get, you know, if directionally you're right, it works. Right. But ideally you want to do the scarier thing that didn't think that would work. And then you are the main thing. You got the monopoly. Creating Roy Spence, who's a friend of mine. You know Roy? No. GST &M, great advertising mind, marketing mind.

31:20GST &M in Austin. They had the 7-Up account. Okay. And I think the story goes they were fighting against Coca-Cola and Pepsi. They couldn't get past, and I think maybe even RC. They couldn't get past the four hole. Yeah. And he said, wait a minute. We're fighting to be in the cola category. Yeah. Let's create a new category and be the un-cola. Right. which became the ad campaign. And then they were number one in a new category, a new ladder that they created. Yeah. If you can't be first, just invent a new way that you are first or the only. That's what you want to be at. Instead of, hey, these things are popular.

31:57Let's make more of those things. It's like why there's scenes in music because a band comes out and they're singular. And then they're like, let's go get all the other similar bands. And then it feels like they were all part of this thing, but really it's kind of this copycat thing. It's boring. Yeah. It's hard to break through. So you get it, but you ideally you want to do your own thing. Life's too short to be someone other than yourself. I feel like, I mean, you can pull it off. I just think you're going to get there going. What if? Yeah. I didn't find out. Yeah. I didn't, I didn't take the chance for the, to absolutely get booed by the masses on a complete failure.

32:32All right. I didn't get the chance to absolutely find out and show up on the other side and they go, you did it. Yeah. How'd you do that? What is that? What is that thing you're doing? Never seen it before. I've got to, you know, I'm working on certain things, ideas I'll have or things I'll say that'll be very, like I work in the tech world with like Salesforce and they're talking, it's tech talk, right? And I work, I'm an advisor over there and I work with the marketing team. And I think what I bring to them is I could colloquialize and familiarize and personalize all the techie data into a bit of a poem.

33:06Can speak to the heart a little bit instead of just the head and go, oh, I understand what that is. I didn't know what all the dots and X's and CRM's and acronyms were, but I understand that. And it's like obvious to me, but a lot of those minds are going, wow, how'd you do that? I'm like, I don't understand what you're saying, but this is what I summated in a way that sort of modern, natural vernacular, you put your spin on it. You got a few things that sometimes you got to watch that too, with our cliff notes, you know, when you have something, we may process it many times and it becomes obvious to us.

33:40And then you project it or you play it out there for the first time or share it. And they're going, wow. And you're like, come on. Wow. That's an obvious one. And you're like, no, that's the one. Don't cut that. Don't edit that one out. That's brand new. It's like the, it's like the joke. Script writers do this in Hollywood. Early script is a great joke. Everyone loves, but they still have to go back and rewrite the script. Give them a couple of passes. They'll remove that joke. And you're like, dude, you're tired of it. Yeah. Because you wrote it a year ago and you've rewritten it twice. Remember, we're giving it to an audience for the first time.

34:15We love that one from the beginning. Don't make a straight line crooked, man. That was a winner. Keep that winner there. Don't get a new bright idea. That is great. Even though you got bored with it because you've written it. You've done the rewrite 10 times. No, the lowest point for me on a book is when I have to come in here and record the audio book and I have to read it all out loud. And it's such a painstakingly awkward, weird process. I'm like, at the end of it, I'm like, I'm not sure this is good at all. Yeah. Just because the process of reading a book out loud to audio, it's so painful and exhausting and weird and not a natural thing at all.

34:49You never just read a book out loud in an empty room. You're not getting any feedback from the audience. And so it makes you question the whole thing. I'm curious how you think about it as an actor, because you have to be kind of uniquely uninhibited. I feel like self-consciousness is the enemy of most... authentic artistic expression like if i'm thinking about what other people are going to think about this that's when i do something that sucks that's when i pull my punches or i make it awkward or weird you kind of have to be free flowing in the moment about it all right so if self-conscious is being could we say that's being objective you hop into your eye in the sky and you have a look down at yourself in the third person how am i doing how does this translate it how is it i think I would say being objective is positive.

35:35Self-consciousness to me has an element of kind of shame to it. You're like anticipating what other people are going to think. And you're looking at how awkward you are. Okay. Okay. That form of self-consciousness. Because I do think, yeah, you're going to, you're tripping yourself. Yeah. You're thinking about how this is going to be, like, if you're trying to win an Oscar, you're probably not going to win an Oscar. Because now you're characterizing the performance with what you think other people want. And you play anticipation. You get ahead of yourself. You put cherries on top of the icing and the icing was enough.

36:04Yes. And you go, you put a little, as my great mentor in life, Penny Allen, acting teacher, certain performance of mine, she was like, no, it was good, honey. But you have to understand you don't have to try and hit a home run every time you're at the plate. Yeah. Sometimes you could bunt. Sometimes a single's good. Not every scene needs to be, oh, the big, you know, if the kids, it's the old Paul Newman thing, man. Show them those baby blues and smile. I'm no more than twice a film, man. If you do it every scene, it doesn't mean as much. Yeah. Right. If every scene so monumental, it's like, well, what did anything?

36:37It's like a coach that yells all the time. You're like, I don't know what, what I'm supposed to really be listening to what he really means or not. Cause he yells everything. Yeah. Objective though. I think if you don't get hung up in that objective too long, I think, I think it's, I think it's important. I think the subjective is the place, the home base start at. And if you're confident enough at that, you can hop to the objective and say, how am I looking? Yeah. Without getting self-conscious just to see the landscape. Cause I've had my head. I'm here. I'm solo man, but I've hopped out to have a look.

37:08What's the landscape? Oh yeah. It still looks smooth up there. There's no cliffs. If your head's down, you don't run off it. It looks like, yeah, I'm doing, I'm actually, it looks like I'm doing what I intended to do. Oh, it actually looks like it's getting received as I was hoping it would be, but you got to hop back and you can get back into the subjective because you can get caught looking at the jumbotron of your life and to use another sports analogy, that's what happens to players. How many players? Leon Lett, you're running back the kickoff. You look at the jumbotron. I'm going to be in the top 10 sports center tonight.

37:38That's when you get caught. It's like a golf. When you look up to see where your ball went, that's when you fuck it up. In golf, any golfers out there, I bet you would tell you, my best surroundings were when I walked off the 18th green and didn't know it was my last hole. Yes. Yes, because you were holes. Because I was headed to the next. Yes. Best performances I've given are when I'm done and they go, that's it. That's a wrap. I go, okay, see you tomorrow. And they go, no, no, no. That's a film wrap. We're done. Right. There's no tomorrow. And you're like, oh, really? Right. How'd I do? Yeah.

38:08Show me the scorecard. Yes. You know? Yes. Right. If you're aware that you are playing your best game ever as you're playing it, that's when you fuck it up. That's when you bogey the 17th. Yeah. And bogey and three putt the 18th to lose by one. it's choking at the finish line it's it's realizing you and i've talked about that before i'd had those immortal finish lines that just go and as long as you trust that it's being recorded yeah and that the strokes are played and yes i counted my strokes right on that hole and i've signed it let me find out how many under i was or how i played after i'm done come tell me it's the proof the proof's there yeah but if i see it coming and i see that end zone coming yeah what do we do you're a little tight a little self-conscious do i deserve to be here i think i'm doing really good all of a sudden you're out of the moment you're not your body's not behaving you're not performing the act that you've just been naturally performing one at a time one in a row every moment every day i think that's the sophomore slump too if you're like yeah you record the first album you're in it and then you're if you're on the next one you're like i have to top what i did last year.

39:16I feel like I got really lucky. So The Obstacles Away came out and didn't do that well. So I had the next book. So I was in the middle of the next book, well into the middle by the time it really started to do well. And so I was just busy both ways. I was too busy to be depressed that it wasn't doing well, and then too busy to be elated that it was doing well. I was busy. I've known a bunch of people, their first book was this huge hit. And it's been really hard to do two and three and four because now there's a an expectation yeah hey i'm i've been working on my second one for a while up to this yeah yeah it's probably hard because this was unexpectedly good i think to people and it was an original idea and a thought and a green light was a philosophy that was a prism that once it clicked with me for the months or year whatever it took me to write it i was seeing everything through that lens yeah measuring every i oh we just had a that's a screen light moment yeah everywhere my my dance with life i was just that was the music was through that lens my new book i've got a what i think is a really solid lens and philosophy to look through but i'm not without trying looking at life through that lens so when i looked when you start looking through the lens i could not not write that yeah it had me sure i had nothing else i could do i had to.

40:36And it was not hard because it was all encompassing 24-7. And I was seeing it everywhere. So I haven't got there in my next book where the philosophy that I'm purporting is how I'm seeing life in its writing itself. Yeah. Well, also, and you say something in the new forward, or I guess it's afterward, where you were saying that this is a really specific book. It's a book only you could have written because it's only about you. And it is not like your normal sort of self, it's not really a self-help book. It's not really a memoir. It's kind of a new thing, right? It's like we're saying, it's a new category.

41:10So it was really specific and it happened to be general. The downside of that success is you now know there's a general audience, right? So you're like, well, what do they want? What are the people that read the first book want? Instead of the more natural, less self-conscious way, which is like, what do I want to say? Right. And you got to get out of that and just make what is exciting and interesting to you and true to you. Yeah. And also then there's the the reality of like, when's it supposed to come out? When's our slot? And now you're you don't have the same time and freedom that you would.

41:45I mean, the first one is what is it you said? Yeah. The first one's 50 years in the making. Right. The other one. I don't have I don't have as many stories. 50 stories use your best five years five years later you know i mean i i tried to share my great stuff and plus if you do people smell even if it's pulled off well if i study and i know i'm pretty feel like i'm pretty conscious of what people what tapped a nerve at that book yeah but if i played into that unless i did it so definitely that you couldn't smell it again seeing the work you smell you smell the pander yeah that's self-consciousness you're like you want this from me, so I'm going to be that thing.

42:21And I can tell that you cooked another souffle under a different name, because that's what we loved about the last one, but you didn't start, you know, the egg came before your chicken. Yes. Well, that's what I think is so weird about meditations, right? This should be a weird, this should be an unreadable book, right? You have the most powerful guy in the world, 2000 years ago, worshipped as a guy. His life is incomprehensibly, unfathomably distant from ours. And every night he would write these little notes to himself, not thinking of an audience. There's stuff he's like, remember that customs officer in some province of the room?

42:58He's clearly not thinking of us because he's not even explaining. There's like a shorthand to it. So it shouldn't, the idea that 2000 years later, it's relevant to athletes and to college students and stay at home moms, like it shouldn't make any sense. But part of the reason it works, the universality of it is inseparable from the specificity of it. He's talking about what it's like to be him, a human being, without any pretense, without any self-consciousness, without any performativeness. And thus it becomes totally relatable in little individual slices because you see yourself not in all of it, but in that specific thing he's talking about.

43:38You're like, oh, yes, this morning, I didn't want to get out of bed in the morning. Or this morning, yeah, I lost my temper. I thought about this. So there's something in all great art that is specific and then becomes universal. And when you try to go the opposite direction, it ends up being for no one. Yep. Look, I started off writing the first two weeks. I was trying to write impressively. Yeah. I remember going back and going, whoa. let's turn a phrase let's do more for two weeks I went on and then I got to the two week period it gained a little confidence that I had some goods to share worth sharing and then looked at my stuff and I was like that's bullshit you're waxing the car man you know the engine let's talk about the engine and the oil and you're waxing the car and I was like that's good wax but it's bullshit yeah to compare to what the honest truth is so then got the conference go dude don't write impressively if you write it well and honestly it may be impressive but don't write impressively and that first two weeks i was trying to write impressively and it was superfluous shit too many adverbs and kinds of stuff that i was like oh that's a nice turn but i was like yeah but you're you're not coming from the inside out it's coming from the outside the lily or whatever Yeah, you're acting the part rather than beating the part.

45:08Yeah, I think if Mark Sturlus had sat down to write a work of philosophy, I'm sure he could have done it because he's clearly a talented writer. And I'm sure there are a lot of philosophical things you could say. And maybe even we would sit down and talk about it because lots of ancient philosophy has survived. But there's something uniquely personal and raw and real about it. And I think that the best art is that. There isn't that element of performativeness. there is something about something stripped down about it. I say that similar. And I, and I know that me personally, my greatest success is not mean like most, but just the most qualitative successes I've had in my life.

45:46Or when I'm not asking permission, not in any anti way. Yeah. Just, no, I'm not apologizing. There's nothing to apologize for. I'm not apologizing. I'm not asking permission. Yeah. And not to go like, I don't think I need it. No, that's one step away. No, I'm not asking. permission yeah not i don't think i should ask no you're not there yet if you're going i don't think i should ask that's already two sort of yeah gilding the lead to get to something no there's i'm not asking permission and almost like not even be able to say it out loud but just knowing it no there's no permission going to be asked from me on this because you were gonna you're gonna do it anyway you don't care and you're like you're thrown you're thrown into isolation and self-reliance and it goes a little bit deeper because you don't have the attaboys or way to goes or the soft landings and you're like dude it's me on me right now here we go and that's just a hell of a charge i mean a good charge yeah sure of stimulation to and and and you can get in that subjective place yeah to where you're not even i think i think i'm always aware when i said earlier like know your zone i'm aware because i pop into that objective spot and go i think i kind of know like i had a i don't know if i ever showed him i wrote reviews for this book before it came out the blurbs are like a like a new york times style no i i wrote your views that i put in the words of other people's mouth okay and i have them and i was going to put them in the book and it was going to be a comedic twist of a 90 % through it, you're going to get to all these reviews.

47:26They're like, wait, the book just came out and I've got them and they're funny. They're pretty spot on. Interesting. About what people that did review the book actually said about the book. So I was, I was popping out into awareness going, what would so-and-so say of this book?

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48:55There's something to that. Like Amazon used to have this thing where, maybe they still do, but Amazon had this thing where if you wanted to like launch a product, you had to write the press release first. So like, imagine that it's existed. You've gotten all the way to the end. You're writing the thing describing. So it's not, so you're having to think in advance. Yeah. Like, cause you don't write your own press release. The marketing department is sitting down and write the press release. What are they able to say about this thing? And if, if it's not exciting, then you've, you've failed. And so let's start from what needs to be exciting and in there at the beginning.

49:30And I think that's that kind of objectivity rather than, because like oftentimes as a creative person, you get really excited. There's all the things that are exciting and interesting to me. And then there's where it overlaps with what people might be interested in. And the ideal projects are where those two things overlap. That's where you get something explosive. And so you got to have the objectivity to know, hey, is this a thing that like just I'm interested in? Or is this a thing that like has a wider resonance outside me? and look if it was only going to take an afternoon just do the thing that's interesting to you but if you're going to spend five years of your life on something it's got to have some nice check in on supply and demand exactly exactly I do this with movies before I get started I'll go sit down with the director and producer and I was like for shits and giggles man what's the poster yeah we hadn't shot it we hadn't started shooting but what's the poster right it's the it's the Calvary coming over and there's a setting sun behind the mountain and you are silhouetted and there's 60 of you coming over the mountain of a setting sun.

50:32Okay. It lets me know this is going to be sort of epic storytelling. Now, what it is, man, it's a close up of you, your face here with that scar that you're going to get from the, when the lion cried. Oh, this is character driven. This director is coming from more of a character driven. Right. Wait, that informs me. Yeah. of how I'm going to communicate and work with that director. And we may, you may end up, I know that you end up getting there. That original poster idea may completely change, but I think it was, I think it's informative to have an idea of let's project further. Reverse engineer from where you want to end up.

51:13What's your eulogy? Yeah. Yes. That's totally. What's the poster? Yeah. If you had to write your poster right now, what that your, your, your goal that you're headed towards, what's, what's going to be said? Yeah. We have that book in the bookstore. Have you read the road to character? David Brooks? He says there's two basically courses in life. You can be building a resume or you can be building a eulogy. And I think what happens is if you're not thinking about the end, you're just stacking up resume values, right? You're like, I did this, I accomplished this, I made this, I beat this, I made this amount of money.

51:45It's all accomplishments. But that's not what people talk about at a funeral. They're talking about your character. They're talking about the impact you had on people. They're talking about whether you were happy or not, whether you had a good life or not. And so if you're not reverse engineering from the eulogy you want, you're defaulting to the building of resumes. And that's like when it comes down to, hey, should I do this project or this project? Should I move here or there? Should I get married? Should I stay married? You're thinking about these choices. It's going to come down to whether you're reverse engineering from something more significant and meaningful, that is a eulogy, or are you just going, what makes the most money?

52:28What's easiest? What's easiest to explain, et cetera. It's why I'm a fan of the value of religion. It's about obedience to death. Yeah. And that's having that in the mind and in the heart. Yeah. That's what's going to happen. That's the end goal. And if there's a belief in something happens after, what religions have, okay, does what I do here now, how I live, oh, it matters. Yeah. Which things matter? Right. Those things we were talking about, the mortal resumes or that eulogy. And that's what I love, my favorite thing about religion that you get out of the values that come with a lot of religious texts is based around an obedience to death.

53:14yeah accepting the reality and the unalterability of death no amount of money or power or fame allows you to to escape this thing this is a mortal game yeah and there's an immortal game yeah but this is a mortal but you said the the way to escape the mortal game is through family i think you know what i mean like people people think about i say i think it's the best one going Yeah. No, no. I mean it in a good way. It's like people want to have multi-generational impacts of like, I got to build this huge company. Right. Meanwhile, like they've got this little person living in their house that they could have.

53:54Like there are things on a day-to-day basis that affect me because of decisions my grandfather made or didn't make. Right. And so that's three generations right there. And he was obviously affected by his grandparents. And so it gets real big, real quick. You realize, oh, the things I do or don't do has an enormous impact on these people. Meanwhile, yeah, another movie, another book, another project. It could affect people. But if we're really being honest, it's a pretty ephemeral impact. Yeah. And you can't ever really measure because you don't know until after the fact, success or failure. Sure.

54:35did it matter that i did three months of press for that or did i have done the same if i wouldn't have done anything you know what i mean right with children to use not the term of them being you know collaterally exports but that's our greatest export yes that that's our immortality that we have 18 years to work on this little epic called our children yeah and we don't own them and make to make them be like this we you've got children how quickly my biggest lesson i got when I first had kids was, oh, I thought it was more, I thought it was more culture environment than DNA. And I was like, oh no, the DNA, they're, they're who they are.

55:12Yes. It was more DNA than I thought. Yeah. It was the first lesson I learned. I got slapped in the face by that. Cause I thought it was like, the parent is full sculpting. I was like, no, you're nudging and you're, you're, you're carving here and you're trying to put more with healthy and give it going to turn them on and feed them in front of them. And you, you want them to get a few bruises. You don't want to take away all the all the thicket in the broken glass but you also don't want them to you know break their leg every time they go out the door so you want to give them a little bit you know your job is to help your kids become who they are not become what you want them to be yeah and i'm not teenagers now that's a whole fun game yeah of which i am happy to say i'm i'm really enjoying i feel like i'm hitting my honey hole of being a father in a way is the most challenging but I didn't know that there was a stop between, I always thought it was your father early, and then later on you can become a friend.

56:05But don't become a friend too early, because they need a father. What I've realized now is that in between father and friend, there's a bridge called brother. Oh, sure. And I'm able to, especially with my teenagers now, them be in a tough situation or a great situation, and be and i'm patting them on the back rather than hey come here here's how you gotta yeah and and i'm not just going like yeah man it's like i have a different arm around them i'm with them going through things yeah i also don't have to edit my good stories as much anymore i can i can keep in the yes in the juicy stuff yes because they can be like they get it now and they're like oh really you're like yeah it's funny you meet families and you're like oh you guys like like spending time together like that's yeah and if that that wasn't exactly your childhood experience you're like oh like people go like you just said you got 18 years together and then and then you see people and they're like oh no that they're spending like i i hear from people like like one of my favorite things of all time is when somebody comes in to the bookstore to get one of my books because their kid told them about it and i'm like oh you guys are you guys have a mutual relationship that is not primarily predicated on the fact that they live in your house right You know, like when someone's like, oh, let me text my son about that.

57:26I love, oh, it's not that they're friends, but they have this exchange that surpasses, you know, the legal part of the relationship. And so actually you have their whole life. You know, if you do it right, you have your whole life. Because ideally their life goes on longer than yours. They have your whole life to be taught and instructed and modeled. And that's how it can go if you do it right. I like that spin a term. You have your whole life and they have your whole life, but you don't have their whole life. Right. Yeah. Access. My buddy, Bart Nags, I have three daughters. You know, Bart. Yeah.

58:02And I'm, you know, talking about teenage years coming on, he's a good man, good father. And I was like, give me, give me, give me a hint, man. He goes, maintain access. Yeah. Keep access. And I've had to watch, again, going into the brother, father to brother and be different times where they'll share something and condemn themselves. themselves and i would have not known and they're wise enough to know that if i don't tell i'm probably not going to find out yeah and first reaction i go to judge and jury and then have to go no dude they're sharing that with you yeah it has to be some we got to give some credit a little bit of amnesty for the fact that they shared something that they knew yeah it could have got away with yeah that's right that's what you want yeah and so main and learning the things that other parents already know.

58:48Like it's, you don't get it right here in the one-on-one sit downs. You get it driving to school for the hour with the music on while they're looking out the window. And it's not the, no, look me in the eye, unconditional, you know, attention right now. That's hard for them. But when you get it in passing, throwing the ball and you're getting this great stuff, you know, so I'm working on that is maintaining access. You know, the story about George Washington, the cherry tree chops on the cherry tree. And he tells that I was reading once that we missed the lesson of the story because it's not real.

59:18It didn't actually happen. The lesson was that he told his dad what he did and that he trusted his wouldn't get his ass beat for it. You know what I mean? Like that, which was, which would have been unique in the 18th century that he told his dad the truth and his dad took the truth as the important thing, not the, I have to inflict punishment upon you for having screwed up in in some way, that's what you want. When I tell the story about me and my dad in there, when he got physical with me for stealing that pizza, he was not hurt because I stole the pizza. Yeah. He was hurt because I lied to him about it.

59:51Yeah. He'd stolen many fricking pizzas, man. He just want me to go, yeah, I was told the pizza he got bust, he'd go, ah, damn it. Well, if you're gonna do that, you gotta get away with it better. Yeah, right. You know what I mean? Or what? Yeah, yeah, yeah. What'd you do with your allowance? But he was never, and I didn't know that till after. Right. And I will never forget the pain in his eyes. The fatigue of his jaw dropping was not how am I failing that my son stole a pizza. It was how am I failing that my son wouldn't just tell me the truth about that. How am I failing that I raised a son that lied to me three times about stealing a goddamn pizza.

1:00:26Come on. The way I would think about it now is what did he do that made you not feel comfortable telling him? Why did you lie? Because there's something we do. We want them to say, you can come to me. That's what we say. but then every day with our actions we're like yeah if you come to me it's bad for you right but we're not actually making it you know there's there's what you say and then there's the case that you make every day dude the night i wrote a little quick blurb on at the beginning about losing my virginity by blackmail when i was 15 maybe i was 14 you know what the threat was no you come to this hotel and you're gonna me or i'm going to go to your house and tell your parents that you've been drinking beer at your your log cabin you built in the woods yes i didn't tell my mom and dad that man i'm getting in trouble i know now my parents would have been like told that girl to get your ass off our porch how dare you try to manipulate your son come here come in here and it'd be out of it we'd hugged it out i didn't i didn't right i didn't see it and i would have not been blackmailed right that night right you know what i mean i i so i've got a couple if you knew you had same harbor i misread a couple of times i'm sure there's more than that right you know so i was we were miscommunicating or i was misperceiving yeah along the way in some way or not seeing clearly you know what was it what i'd seen with my older brothers and how they were disciplined by rules and stuff like that maybe i didn't see it clearly there's a guy dave carey he lives in georgetown or maybe i was just chicken shit i was i was talking to someone the other i was like i wish i was like i wish that my track coach just said you know this to me i would have gotten through and my friend was like they said that to you several times what the fuck are you talking so there's something about we can't hear what we're not ready to hear so they probably told you a thousand times come to me no matter what it is you won't get in trouble and then you just refuse to hear but anyways there's this guy named dave carey lives in in georgetown he was He went to the Naval Academy.

1:02:27He was in the Hanoi Hilton with Stockdale and McCain, prisoner of war for like six or seven years. I asked him once - I was just in Vietnam last year. Oh, wow. He's this amazing guy. And he was saying that one of the things he learned as a parent, he's like, you always got to remember, the goal of every conversation is to get to have the next conversation. I think about that a lot. Because you think your job is like, I got to discipline them. I got to get this point across. I got to make them understand this. and it's like you don't know that this is the conversation where that is supposed to happen actually it might be 15 years from now they're going to be calling you with some problem or not calling you with some problem because of how you acted in this moment amen yeah that's a good one it's a good one to remember it's good for life too generally also take some pressure off yeah of course yeah if you think this is the moment you're probably we gonna say yeah i definitely i definitely have that that pride and arrogance to feel like no i gotta make it clear right now it's black and it's white do you understand that it's that clear say it back to me great period done are we done now okay everyone got it okay now let's have ice cream yeah it's like what they actually i'm like no it's just it's you don't have to put a period on the end of it keep it open and we can still have the ice cream while we're finishing up the conversation right which is that it's hey we only got 18 years it says who right you know you're not gonna can't have any good conversations when they're 22 i hope you could so it's like kind of yeah i think whenever i'm extrapolating i'm usually getting myself in trouble it's like i'm worried if you did this and then you don't understand this then this this this this and you'll end up living under a bridge somewhere or you know in works if i let them talk to me this way in this situation no one will ever respect me ever again you know it's that extrapolation based on you know an absurd series of assumptions but it's also it's also i think it's fair to say you and i really like logic yeah and everything's so logical most of these discussions are not about logic yeah they're very passionate and animal want yeah need reactionary discussions i mean i don't you know and i was like two plus two is four there's the math what don't we get about that that's that's A lot of times that's not the point that they're understanding or want to understand.

1:04:50Oh, I get it. I didn't know that was the math. That's not easy what they're asking. Do you want to be right or do you want to be married?

1:05:03I told you that Mark Waters goes to girlfriend's past. I do my homework on, I prepare a lot for roles and I go into scenes and I know my man. Yeah. And I've got clear decisions on what I would do. And if I hear something, what I wouldn't do. And he's coming up in this one scene and he's saying like, yeah, well, I do it. And he's like, okay, that's good. You try this. And I was like, no, no, never do that. No, no, that's false. It's false. We did. No, no. And he's like, after a couple of retorts back, he goes, you know, Matthew, you are never wrong. And I was like, thank you. but there's there's more than one way to be right and i went oh shit touche mark and i'll never forget that moment yeah and i he just like and i went oh and it was one of those you now you hear certain things along the way maybe once in a couple years some moment you'll hear and it'll it'll be branded on you yeah that's it that's one that stuck with me on that on that subject of there being more than one way to be right like i love being right of course you know I honestly wish more people love being right.

1:06:12Being right is almost gone out of vogue in a lot of ways. I don't think it's nostalgic to say competence is a real measure. Yeah, sure. Doing something well, right, as compared to doing something not well and wrong. Yeah. But it's not on the top of the list. I mean, I've talked about, I wish people need to bring embarrassment back. No, shame can be helpful also. It can be bad for art, but like if you're not, if the only thing that is holding you back is whether something is strictly legal or not, we're in a lot of trouble. Yeah. You know? Why'd you do it? Because I could. Yeah. Right. That's, I hear you, Augustus McRae.

1:06:51Yeah. You know, I hear you as a kid, but do you want to? Yeah. Ask yourself if you want to before you can. Yeah. When you can. Yeah. Ask yourself if you want to, or if you maybe should. Can we go that far? I mean, I think we're realizing, oh, wait, the whole American system was based on these norms that we never wrote down. And we just assumed people wouldn't do certain things. And then certain people come along and they go, I'm going to do whatever I want. And we're like, we don't have any checks for that. Like, checkmate, you win. You know? No, that's 100%. It's a big problem. That constitution of normal expectations and decency that were unwritten and understood are oblique now.

1:07:31There's supposed to be some things that you commit Harry Carey afterwards because you know what I mean? You're like, I'm out. I lost. It's like, no, sorry. Yeah. Shake hands on it. Got me. Yeah, exactly. You got me there. Yeah. You know? Yeah. But if we don't have that, we're like a little bit, oh shit. We just have to wait for this person to die, I guess. Self and. Yeah. We just have to wait for this person to get tired or give up or I don't know. It's crazy. The final check in our system is like, would a human being be shameless enough to do X, Y, or Z? Yeah. You know what's crazy? Put a full circle in, and then I want to take you into the bookstore to show you something.

1:08:05But we were talking about the prologue. I have two pages of notes of things I want to talk about. I didn't even look at them. But I think I got everything I wanted to say. Eisenhower had this thing about how plans are worthless, but planning is everything. Amen. You do all the prep. You do all the thinking about it. And then you probably don't use one fucking bit of it. saying earlier that i show up when i'm doing my best work i show up with copious amounts recognize and i get there and i'm like well duh duh well duh well duh not bringing that script to set anymore that was then do i trust that it has informed me enough yeah and do i go back and go oh you could have done yeah but there but because i wasn't adhering to that or going back hang on a second let me look at my notes i found another magic trick along the way because it was in the moment.

1:08:53I wasn't going, hang on a second, let me check my notes to make sure. But I love to prepare and have those signposts there. If you hit these, you will succeed. I don't know if you make magic. If you ask those questions, it will be a good interview. But if you have the basis of those questions and we go where we've been, maybe it's a great interview. To be able to relax though into that, because I love the word. You love the word. And then today, I know if I'm going to give a speech or something there's some speeches everyone like dude don't change a word of that yeah don't go off script yeah yeah but you're going to be reading instead of going engaging yeah and i have times where i'm like i don't care that's going to be printed and then when it's printed i want it to be exactly sure what is said here so maybe i won't be the best performing orator but what will be what will live on after yeah will be exactly what i meant to say Well, there's different, in that case, you're not actually, the audience you're performing the thing to is different, right?

1:09:52Because you're like, oh, this is going to be played in different meetings. Like the Gettysburg Address was somewhat underwhelming as a speech. Like the guy that goes before Lincoln, he speaks for like two and a half hours. The Gettysburg Address was four times shorter than the prayer which opened the ceremony. I heard this the other day on The Rest is History. It's incredible. He gets up there, he gives a speech, and people are like, they thought it was a pause. before the rest of the speech. It's so short. But that Lincoln wasn't performing for 500 people or 5 ,000 people at Gettysburg. He's performing for the newspapers, whom he has handed a copy of the address, and he's performing for us.

1:10:32He was attempting, as people don't think of him as this logical, he was attempting to redefine what America stood for in a series of 270 words. It was almost a contract he was writing. He said, this is what America is about. He wasn't trying to persuade you with his eloquent voice. It was these very tightly wound sentences and that those have endured, obviously, for 200 years or 150 years. That's what it's... So yeah, you got to know who you're performing. What mark are you hitting here? Are you hitting the mark for the live studio audience or are you performing past them for the camera, which is being watched by millions And that's a bit of that objectivity, not necessarily self-conscious, but that's a bit of that objectivity of knowing your zone.

1:11:18Who's my audience? I know this is going to live and have a long tail. Where's it going to be reprinted? That's what this, this performance may not be great. Yeah. But these words will live on and hopefully be changing, life changing. Yeah. Totally. Love it. Want to check out some books? Yeah. Sweet. Thanks so much for listening. If you could rate this podcast and leave a review on iTunes, that would mean so much to us and would really help the show. We appreciate it. And I'll see you next episode.

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