Matthew McConaughey On His Greenlights Philosophy, His Roadtrip Course And Feeling Gratitude For Life

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1:32Welcome to the Daily Stoic Podcast, where each weekday we bring you a meditation inspired by the ancient Stoics, a short passage of ancient wisdom designed to help you find strength and insight here in everyday life. And on Wednesdays, we talk to some of our fellow students of ancient philosophy, well-known and obscure, fascinating and powerful. With them, we discuss the strategies and habits that have helped them become who they are, and also to find peace and wisdom in their actual lives. But first, we've got a quick message from one of our sponsors.

2:22Hey, it's Ryan Holiday. Welcome to another episode of the Daily Stoic Podcast. I was driving the other day, my phone was plugged in to the car and this text comes up on the screen in the center console, the Apple CarPlay or whatever. And it's like, you have a text from Matthew McConaughey. And I was like, is this real life as this person? Maybe one of the greatest actors in the world, person whose work I very much enjoy is just shoot me a text. And as it happens, he was, and he had a question about this course he was launching, which is actually really cool. It's called Road Trip, The Highway to More.

3:02And he'd never done anything like that. I think it's actually been cool. I saw an interview, actually. I think Richard Linklater was talking about one of the reasons he thinks Matthew wrote his book. And then, you know, I would add to this why he's doing stuff like this. Of course, is that so much of an actor's life is outside of their control. Actually, when I interviewed Matthew on the Daily Soap podcast back in 2020, we were talking about this line from Epictetus, where Epictetus says, we're actors in a play, right? Like so much of what we do is not under control. We don't control the material.

3:32We don't control what the audience does. We don't control what the director does. We don't control which part we get. We're just reacting. And then an actor has to act well, play the role well. But it's also wonderfully fulfilling when you do get to be more creatively in control and you get to make your own stuff. That's what I like about writing books is like, it's my book. It's published more or less how I want it to be published. There's less intermediaries than there are in Hollywood or television or radio or whatever. So get the text from Matthew, talk about this course. And then I asked him if he wanted to come on the podcast and have like a real in-depth convo about this idea of more, but also how less can get you more, which is what I've been thinking about, sort of my mantra for the year as I've been talking about.

4:25You've seen Matthew in everything from Interstellar, The Gentleman's, Dallas Buyers Club, The Wolf of Wall Street. He not only has won Best Actor, but I think even more impressively in the weeks and months after the terrible tragedy at Uvalde, where Matthew's actually from, he helped bring both parties together to pass, while not nearly sufficient, one of the first bits of progress we have had in this country about dealing with this terrible scourge of gun violence. And I was just, I texted him while that was all happening, just how amazingly impressed I was by all of it. Matthew also has this Just Keep Living Foundation, which is dedicated to helping teenage kids lead active lives and make healthy choices to become great men and women.

5:17So we got a bunch in common, a bunch to talk about. And in today's episode, we talked for nearly two hours. So I'm going to split this up into a part one and a part two. You can follow him on at officially McConaughey on Instagram, at McConaughey on Twitter, at Matthew McConaughey on YouTube. And then you can check out this really cool course that he did. I went through all of it. There's a bunch of themes in there that really struck closely with me and we dig deep into them in our conversation. You go to artoflivinevent.com slash road trip. I'll link to that in today's show notes, but I'm pretty sure if you just search Matthew McConaughey road trip, it just, it comes up.

6:03It's like the first Google results. So you You can grab that and then check out his book, Greenlights, which is also extremely good. And I quite enjoyed my blurbs there on the back. So I am excited to bring you the one and only Matthew McConaughey.

6:22I'm picking my kids up from school today and then doing our weekly routine, which is I take them over to Whole Foods and we get all our groceries for the week. Then we have dinner. It's one of their favorite things to do. It's one of my favorite things to do. and then my wife loves it because she doesn't have to take care of it. This holiday season, whether you're a guest or hosting the big dinner, Whole Foods Market has what you need to delight everyone at your table. They even have heat and eat sides from the prepared foods department. You can make Whole Foods your one-stop shop. Everything follows Whole Foods Market's strict ingredients standards so you know it'll be delicious and good for you.

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8:38So look, I want to start kind of at the end in the sense of you had a little experience on an airplane recently. Uh, what flashes through your mind when the thing you're taking for granted, which is getting safely from point A to point B, uh, suddenly, uh, changes? Um, first thing, let me get an eyeline on the flight attendant. Yeah. Because I know they're trained to look calm and. Sure. Together. and I've hit turbulence before where I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. But then you look at the flight attendant and like, and you kind of measure and you're looking for their, their sort of, their indirect wink, like it's okay.

9:28Or, oh shit. Right. Yes. Well, there was no, no, no, no. There was no wink. Everyone was like, and the flight attendants were somewhere, you know, down, getting themselves back up together and really scared. You saw the fear in their eyes.

9:46I immediately, without thinking about it, put a hand out to my wife, Camilla, and we held each other here, my left arm, her right. Kind of hold your breath. Some people were laughing. And it was almost a nervous sort of shock laughter is what I understood afterwards.

10:11and when it happened there was no I don't believe there was no there was no seat belt warning prequel there was no warning before it happened I'm lucky I had the Camilla and I both had our dinner tray tables over our waist and when we went up that's that was the hinge that that held my feet went up and my torso went up and that was the hinge that held me at my waist and then I I remember looking up and seeing there was a glass of red wine just floating in this beautiful shape in the air, standing still. And I was in Inception for a second. All these plates and everything just slowed down to, you know, about 300 frames a second.

10:49And all of a sudden it just folded. One, two, three, four. Wham! And on the slam down is when everything just gravity came and everything dropped. and it was a lot of, you could hear a lot of steel on steel. A lot of those, they had just gotten the service carts out, which weigh a lot. And when those came down behind us, you had heard some, then you started to hear a little bit of some screaming. Again, look at those flight attendants. What's the look on their face? Another, like the third, I guess the third in charge of one of the pilots when that came out and he was very discombobulated. That's when I knew it was serious.

11:28Then it was, oh, geez, our friends tell us all the time, if you can fly separate as a husband and wife, if you can. We had that deal. And I was like, you know, maybe we'll talk about that later. Let's see if there's another one coming. Let's see if there's another hit coming. I didn't start to go down a list of like prayers. errors it was more deal with the deal with the immediate moment what what do i gotta i didn't go like say hail marys or anything like that like this is the end so now let me you know what i say on the way down it wasn't that look i was fortunate i had a friend matthew o 'hare riding to the right of me with the pilot and he had the radar on his iphone was like yeah we're just on the left edge of this thing i don't know why we didn't get further left we got to get off the berm of this this storm it's right here and we're still not out away from it and right about then bam another one hit.

12:26Now, the seatbelts are on, so it's a little more secure. And then, you know, being a beginner, intermediate engineer, my question is, is there structural damage to this plane? Because that was as big of a jolt by mother nature as I've ever felt on a piece of steel flying through the air. And enough where I was like, I don't know what could withstand at least not being bent, you know, in my mind. And he goes, oh, no, no, don't worry about that. These planes are tested to such a great strength that there's no structural damage. I was like, okay. And then things, the dust settles. We see on the radar that we're out away from the storm.

13:07Some of that laughter I heard in the back turns to tears and moaning and crying. People start to tend to their wounds, kind of come out of the shock. People start to measure, how am I really injured? And there were quite a few injuries. And then this is all, everything I just said in the last three minutes goes through my mind in about the first 20 seconds. Yeah. Because after 20 seconds, I then got pissed off. Yeah, you told me that. I then got immediately mad and was cussing and going, man, and I got another pilot to my right with the radar going, we could have just headed off west and taken 10 more minutes and missed it.

13:48And so now I'm like, that was avoidable. What the hell? So now I'm pissed off. and around the time I'm getting pissed off, I'm settling back down. There's obviously no more service. Everyone's just trying to clean up, clean up broken glass and tend to people. All of a sudden they go, we're going to have to – we thought we were going to make it to New York, which was not the ultimate destination, but instead we had to cut back, back to Washington and Dulles. And then you land, and there's seven ambulances on the ground. But fear, oh, my gosh, complete no control. this could be it let me hold the one I love to the to the left of me yes if this is it it's been written we I love you here we go I got you wait a minute this is bullshit you know it cut that's it kind of went into that that was it that was about the real-time emotions yeah do you so there's a moment of acceptance where you're like I'm just a passenger on this plane uh if it goes it goes yeah there's a moment of i mean look i've said that about planes before and why i i'm not nervous flying why i'm still not nervous and i've flown since and why i'm not nervous i'm just like dude i know that if the shit does hit the fan i'm not next in line as the best pilot so therefore i don't i'm out of control therefore i'm gonna relax now if i was a decent pilot i'd probably be a lot more nervous on planes for thinking at a moment like that Oh, am I up?

15:18This is time to put me in, coach. Now I've got a reason to have some nerves. But now there's a moment when that happened and I'm like, yeah, seatbelt, no seatbelt. You know, I'm not – if this crashes, you know, you don't hear many where you go, well, the seatbelt survived in the plane crash. Less injuries in the cabin for sure. But this is one of those, like, oh, if this goes down, let's just – I immediately – my mind immediately goes, was this written? Yes. Was this written or is this random? And I pretty much go quickly into – with that situation. I had a moment of, oh, this – okay, this was written.

16:01This was the narrative of my life. This is it. It's a narrative of everyone in here's life. It could be. This is what happened. If we go down, okay. And then, you know, within that 30 seconds, I didn't go back and deconstruct 53 years of, oh, did I do this? What would I do different? Oh, my God. It wasn't a deathbed deal like what do I regret and what – no, it was just like, whoa, this could be an abrupt exit. This is completely out of my control. What will happen is going to deem what happens to me and everyone else on this planet. Yeah. And we may be exiting this life. That understanding did go through head and body.

16:41It's an interesting metaphor. There's a line in Towards the End of Meditations, which Marcus is probably writing as he's getting close to death. He goes, look, the curtain's coming down. And he goes, but wait, wait, wait. And he goes, hey man, this play's only got three acts. Like that's it for you. And there is something about that, I think, where you can go, hey, it was a pretty good script. I had a good part. I played the shit out of my part. If you can't, maybe something different flashes through your mind in one of those moments. Yeah. I wonder because it's not a – the circumstance we're talking about, very different than someone fading out.

17:22Yeah, sure. The last 10 years or knowing the curtain is being called on their death and there's a lot of room for deconstructing where you've been and memory to catch up and judgment. and a lot of people find faith in those last years when maybe they didn't have it before. In my circumstance, obviously there's no time for that kind of abrupt realization. There's no time to go back and like do the grade. There's no time to go. It would have been very arrogant to say, oh, you know what I regret, honey? It would have been like, oh, dude, it was still a bit of that, you know, Hey, quit praying. Get your ass up.

18:03Well, let's run from the tornado. It was like, what do we do? What can we do? I got you. I'm holding a hand. It wasn't much time to get objective about the situation. Sure. Sure. How quickly you land on the ground, you got all your arms and legs, fingers and toes. It's the least bad version of what could have happened. And do you have a moment of gratitude or does the anger prevent the gratitude? Do you feel like a second lease or no? Yeah, right, right, right, right, right, right. Well, I'm sort of parlaying gratitude and I'm still pissed. I'm still going. Not pissed at the inconvenience that our whole trips and plans are thrown off and we had to land.

18:50We're going to go figure out where we're going to. Just like, damn it, that was freaking unavoidable. So I start going through stereotypical scenarios that are, you know, in my own head about why would you do that? And I go back and I remember before we took off, the pilot coming on going, sorry, we're leaving 15 minutes late. I'll try and make as much time up as we can get to it. I'm like, ah, are they running on a protocol? They're running on a time. Did the pilot know it was avoidable and said, no, I'll just skirt the left berm of the, instead of losing 10 more minutes and getting clear away from it.

19:21I don't know. You go through these stairs, but I'm just pissed because it was unavoidable. And I'm pissed because my buddy's holding the radar, who's a pilot next to me, going, we're damn close to this thing before it happens.

19:33So I'm mad. And then I'm like, look, Camille and I sat there at the end of the night when we got that little room in a motel and put a little food in our belly and took a few deep breaths, called the kids and had a little, didn't say, oh my God, how are y 'all? Didn't overdo and exaggerate and get sentimental. But we were like, boy, if your mother and I just had an event happen tonight that shook us to the core. We are playing almost. And they're like, we saw that on the news. Y 'all were on that. Yeah. That was, yeah. And then we went to them. And I think through teaching them and reminding them, let's make, you know.

20:20You know what? You know what did come through my head, the old, and it's been said a million times, the old, hey, when you say goodbye, make sure you say I love you. Yes. That did go through my head. And I remember the next week, one of our children was going to school and he was in a grumpy mood. And we didn't get the hug goodbye and the I love you. And he didn't say the I love you back. And it was, you know, some people out there going, oh, that's the after school special. Yeah, whatever. It's great. It really went through my head to go, oh, watch leaving on a bad note if it's just a mood you're in with people that you give a damn about and you love.

21:02You know, because you really don't, you don't know. And that exit, that last moment will, some people I've heard will, you know, regret that. The ones that live on the side of losing someone where it didn't end up, they regret that that last moment was that. Every time could be the last time. Yeah. Now, you know, again, not to get sentimental on it. It's just fact. Every time could be the last time. At the same time, I'm not really interested in. You can get you can get you can become hypo. Sure. And you act on that. That's if that's a word you can become really kind of paranoid and kind of hovering and cocoon yourself and your loved ones for that.

21:53and kind of all of a sudden, you know, you don't want to go out there. I've seen people do it. You don't want to go out the door in the morning for fear of this could be the last. Sure. You know, or no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Don't go out there. And you see children get sheltered to not have experiences because they never skin their knee or break, you know, get a bruise or what have you to go out and figure it out on their own or come home scared, you know? Yeah. But it's true. Yeah. Every time. It's a risk. Yeah, especially I think coming out of COVID where you had all this time where you kept your kids very, very close.

22:26I know I did. The acceptance of bringing risk back into your life, right? Because every time you get in a plane, every time you get in a car, every time you do anything, there's a risk. And you can't live your life that way. But I do think you have to, because it could happen, it doesn't mean you shouldn't do things, but you probably shouldn't leave any loose ends untied. Are the risks higher? Because they sure feel like it. Or are we just sort of coming out with virgin wings again, engaging with risk, and it feels brand new, and it feels exaggerated again? I mean, it does feel like... Look, I certainly think a media environment where you can see real-time images of every horrible thing that's happening anywhere in the world exacerbates or perhaps brings to the forefront risks that maybe otherwise you wouldn't be considering.

23:27But, you know, there's a war raging in Europe. You know, there's a great power struggle between the U.S. and China. We live in a country flooded with assault rifles. We're just coming out of a pandemic. life's scary man that stuff's on the scoreboard for sure you can't let that paralyze you but it should the reality of those things I think or lesson from what you went through is don't leave things hanging don't leave things undone don't put things off to the future take the opportunities while you have them because you never know Yeah. And why you, things become, you, you, things like that, like that event, you, what, what happens on the thing, it does sober you up in a way, in a way, more sober than you maybe were before.

24:24And you do, because it becomes directly personal. and look around you and the things you love and care about are in 8k or maybe they were they were just you know that they were they were hd before i mean it becomes whoa it becomes more personal and you and you uh you do care you do care for it more it has more meaning you get more gratitude i saw this thing this guy was sitting in his living room and uh stray bullet comes through the window buries in a book behind his head actually in uh tim ferris's tools for titans i think just right behind his head just sitting there bullet gets buried you know misses him by a couple inches he's not in a war zone he's in his freaking house and so on the one hand like you said you're angry at things that are totally senseless preventable uh didn't need to happen At the same time, I got to think you get up off the couch after that happens and you go, I got a second chance.

25:30I was spared. How am I going to use this gift that maybe somebody was looking out for me or the odds were in my favor or one of my nine lives is still with me. How am I going to spend that? To me, that's the question you take from those kind of those scrapes and near missus. And how long, for how long, and how much is that just a New Year's resolution that by February we've forgotten? Yes. Yes. And how much does it go, no, it's opened up a truer, more glorious and beautiful perspective that is real, that I'm going to make sure I remember when the lines get fuzzy again, when everything seems like easy street, and I've got nothing to defend and it doesn't seem so personal and life's just a song.

26:23Right. It does. It does fade quickly. It does fade very quickly. You get the reminder of memento mori, that life is short, that you're not in control, that you're a passenger. Someone could write you out of the play at any moment, but then our sort of natural ego and self-centeredness and comfort, it creeps back in pretty fast. Yeah. I mean, you know, we don't I've talked about it. I'm, I'm working on defining and understanding and believing and trying to communicate that. I actually think that that, when we do have that sobriety we're talking about, that of what's important in our life and how to take care of it.

27:07And what are we going to do going forward? That, that is actually more self-centered. Yeah. That that is actually really set. Now, now we're talking self-centered. Yes. Yes, that's what we're talking about because what you're talking about, we live that way and care for those things that we love that much more. Take those certain risks to maybe become what we're doing. We're just a little afraid to do that. We're ultimately serving ourself in the future. We've talked about that, which is a religious experience. That's religion. I mean, right? And ultimately, that would be inversely, from the inside out, the most self-centered thing to do, the most selfish thing you could do for yourself and others.

28:01And I'm really working on, my pastor says I'm pushing a big rock up a steep hill on this one. I'm really working on, I believe there's a truth that actually the most selfish, truly selfish, Not in the definition, the Webster's we run around with it today. The most truly selfish acts and people we can be are actually simultaneously being the most selfless. And then the reciprocity starts and it starts to feed us back and serve ourselves. And again, I don't think you get rid of that ego. I think you actually, the really healthy ego is part and parcel with that service, with that caring for that which we love the most, including ourselves.

28:54Thanks to Toyota Trucks for sponsoring this episode. When I bought my ranch in 2015 out here in Bastro County, I drove my car about halfway down the dirt road that we live on, thought this isn't going to work, stopped, parked it, walked the rest of the way home, borrowed my wife's car, drove into Austin and bought a truck. What I bought was a Toyota Tacoma. And this truck wasn't just transportation getting me to and from my house. It unlocked a whole different style of living for us, not just on the ranch, but in our little Texas towns. There were places I could go now that I couldn't go before, especially out here in the piney forests, through the fields, and on the unpaved roads like the one that I lived in.

29:39We got to go deep into the hill country's wild beauty. We've driven all the way out to East Texas. We've driven across the country. And by we, I mean not just my wife, but both my kids who I drove home from the hospital in that truck. Toyota trucks are built for those who understand that the best adventures happen when you're willing to veer off course, because you never know when you'll end up on a Toyota adventure detour. And of course, this is stoicism, too, because every detour, every obstacle is an opportunity. But it's helpful if you can handle the difficulty inherent in that. If you've got the resilience and the right companion to make it wherever the road takes you, discover your uncharted territory.

30:21Learn more at toyota.com slash trucks slash adventure dash detours. You hear that? That's not just a Toyota truck. That's the sound of no crowds, no alerts, no distractions, and no telling what you'll find next. You know, like a detour. So why would you ever take a tour when you could take a detour? Toyota Trucks.

31:00Yeah, you talk about this in the course a lot, basically the virtue of selfishness in that you can't take care of other people if you're not taking care of yourself. If you don't know what you want, if you don't know what's important to you, if you don't know what has you at your best, you know, you're not going to be what you can be. for the world, for other people, you know, for the stranger you bump into on the street. Yeah, I don't, I don't, yeah, I don't, I don't believe we are. I think, you know, the parable of the talents in the Bible? No, what is it? The parable of the talents is basically, the way you came back, came back even, one buried, one lost, damn the one that buried it, damn the brother that buried it.

31:47But the one that does the right thing is the one who turns the money or the gift into more, right? To whom much is given, much is expected. And I do think all of us are born with a kind of a unique potential or a capacity. and to not realize that potential or that capacity because you're scared, because you're intimidated, because you're codependent, because you make it about everyone else. I mean, that does deprive the world of things. Like people who realize their potential employ other people, they inspire other people, they make things that other people enjoy, they invent things, they make art that stands the test of time.

32:27I think realizing your potential is both selfish and selfless along the sort of dichotomy that you set up. Is it, it's also, I think, a part of, if I'm gonna redefine selfish in this way, and I'm supposing ears are going, okay, that which I do for me, damn be the world, that expense of my neighbor, I'm going after what I want more of. I start to now to go, okay, so I can be successful. maybe we got to get in there and start redefining what that word is. Success. What is it? What would we be doing if we're doing all for ourselves? That's part of what my redefinition of selfishness. Okay. What are you doing?

33:17Our definition of what we call selfish today when we say, Oh, that's a selfish thing you're doing. Yeah. I argue most of them. No, it's not. It's not a self less thing they're doing, but it sure as hell ain't the best thing for them. Yeah, sure. They're not serving themselves with that idea, with that immediate gratification or that burn bridge or that lie, cheat, steal to get what they want. And they got it. Yeah, you got the trophy. Okay, but man, that's like transient. That's not selfish. That was like kind of foolish. You'd kind of put yourself in a corner, bro. Tomorrow, you didn't buy yourself any equity for freedom in your own future.

33:55So that's not truly selfish. Right. There's another word for it, but it ain't selfish if you ask me. I mean, so redefining what we call success. Redefining right now what? Success seems to be this thing that we're taught to chase, and you brought it up earlier from this stimulus that we're being fed and the world and every ad and what the world tells us, how you succeed, how you become happy. it's a it's a one lane highway going vertical directly vertical and that highway is packed and horns are honking and people are everyone wants on that highway quantity more more more quantity highest number wins highest building wins and a lot of that becomes can become at the sacrifice of quality.

34:54And so what is success? If it's all quantity, the lack of bringing more quality and qualification to our life, our personal life selfishly, if it's not bringing that, if the quantity is not bringing that quality, then we're on the wrong highway. We're using the wrong calculator for what we're deeming to be successful and how we're defining how we're truly being selfish to ourself or not with ourselves. Yeah. It's like, there's a lot of people that have won a lot of championships, a lot of people that have made a lot of money, started big companies, won a lot of awards, had what seems like a glamorous, wonderful life.

35:33But how many of those people are happy? How many of those, for how many of those people did it do for them what they thought it would do for them? And then there is, you could argue a rarer feat, which is the person who is great at what they do and has enough or and feels good about themselves or and is a good person, right? And that's the honey hole. That's the spot right there. That's the man. That's the woman. That's the person right there. Yeah. And which one of those are you aiming at? Or are you unthinkingly going Steve Jobs, greatest, most famous CEO of all time. That's who I'm modeling my life after.

36:13and you're not asking, well, what was it like to be Steve Jobs? Would I be happy living in that guy's brain, body, house? You can't just think, oh, I'm sure it's a nice, fancy house. You have to go, is this what I want? Is this what I'm meant for? Is it even possible to be a happy or good person at that level, living that way, having made those choices? No judgment on him specifically, I'm just saying. Yeah. And then along the way, that's your aspiration. And again, I've been accused of this, and I want to throw this out there for any ears on it. And Ryan just said it. I'm not saying it. I don't hear him saying it at all.

36:55Nothing wrong with chasing the quantity. Go for it. Get it. Amen. But if your aspiration is to be like that mogul or to be... I know. I know. I got friends. You know what the ambition is? I want to be the richest man in the world. I want to be the richest person in the world. I'm like, wow. That's okay. That's a badass ambition. Now, along the way, and they've told me, no, no, no. I don't care about highest number. I want to be on the top of Forbes, the richest person in the world. I'm like, oh, wow. All right. And they don't, and they're not qualifying. They're not bringing in along the way measurements of like necessarily an ethics measurement.

37:45That's the racing, racing, bro. Yeah. I know some people like that. Now, if you ring up the Steve Jobs or whoever it's going to be and you say, yeah, what's their house? Like, well, you got to, how do I want to be like them? great for the aspiration, but they, whoever that is chasing that, make sure that you're asking, what's my house look like? How am I different than Steve Jobs? Where do he and I differ a little bit? Where I mean, if I'm trying to mimic him, we know that that never happens. Right. I mean, you can't mimic anybody. Even if you write the exact same words, make the exact same moves.

38:23It's a different time. It's a different meeting. It's a different choice. Um, But I know I've got some friends that do that, too, that are going after to be just like someone or try to imitate. And they are completely blind along the way. To who they are, to what they feel, to what matters to them. to they're so objectively I guess chasing something that they want to be that they never really subjectively go oh yeah who am I? What am I doing? What do I like? What do I give a shit about? And I think what we're saying is that the two don't have to contradict each other and that goes back to the selfish can be the selfless.

39:24The two are not conscious. You can chase an aspiration. Write that billboard. Play it first. That headline out there that you're chasing, that you want. That eulogy or whatever it is that's being read. That legacy that you will leave. The shadow across this earth, this globe, when you go. Chase that. Great. But along the way, how's the path personal? How are you, I don't know, what words you use, more healthy? Did you care? Not at the expense. Did you get there? Can you get there? Not at the expense of harming people you loved or not being around as a husband, a father, for a lover, or friends, or whatever those things are.

40:11If you love food, but then all of a sudden you at the expense, you quit enjoying a meal on the way to get there. You can do both. Yeah, because what if you get in a plane crash halfway there? Did you like that ride? Or was the sacrifice and the struggle and the compromises and everything you made along the way, was it only worthwhile if you get the outcome? right which you don't control right you don't control whether you don't control who who gives the academy award at the end of the award season you don't control where you saw this with your book you don't control the new york times decides who the number one book book is not what the objective sales are just like you don't control forbes decides who the richest person in the world is uh the audience decides who the best musician of all time is you know the market decides who the best baseball player in the world is.

41:06All that stuff is outside your control. So I'm not saying you never delay or defer gratification. You never sacrifice so you can get something. But I'm trying to get to a place in my work where actually doing the work is itself enjoyable and rewarding. And then the sales and the reception is a bonus on top. Right. Yeah. It's a great place to get if you can get there. I've been there. It's hard, though. It's hard. I've been there a few times. I still got some of the DNA in me, but I'm working on it, too, man. I'm trying to try this old John Abbey cake and eat it, too. I'm still like, well, hang on a second.

41:46The result does matter to me here. I'm like, ah. You know? Well, if you don't care about the results at all, nobody will pay for you to do it anymore, right? So we live in a world where you've got partners that care. You have plans to be present. Yeah. Yeah. You know, let's admit this, though. Does any. Well, yeah, I can even say that's for me, but how. At least this is true, I think the amount of times that the result of the getting of what it is that you wanted, the actual capture proof being what you thought it was going to be or giving you what you thought it would give you it doesn't happen that often now i'm not saying it doesn't happen sure because i've had a couple experiences in my life where actually when I got to the top of that mountain or through that proverbial door and got that prize that I was after.

42:59I had. Whoever gave it to me, recite to me exactly what I had written down and planned. And when I get there, this is what can be said. This is what I'll get. And I was like, did you get my mail? And they didn't get my mail. I'm like, that's exactly what I was trying to get. So I've had it happen a couple of times. And I don't know what you call it. But the other 99.9 % of the times, I know for me and what I get from others, is that it's not ever. Well, let me say this for a fact. I think it is fact that you land there, you never go ta-da. Yes. You land there, you never go, hum, I did it. That never happens.

43:51And I think a lot of us think that that's going to happen. Yeah. And that I've never heard of actually happening. Yes. And I don't believe does. You immediately go, oh, well, I just handed the baton off to my higher self and I've still got, I can't even see the ceiling. I'm just getting started here. I remember the first time I hit the New York Times bestseller list. I was mowing my lawn when my agent called and he goes, you hit it. And I was like, cool. Now I got to finish mowing my lawn. You know, like the ticker tape doesn't come pouring out from the ceiling. Nobody throws you a parade. The thing you needed from your dad that you didn't get, the pain that you felt from your childhood, it doesn't matter.

44:42The hole is not magically filled. And I've got to imagine you're hoisting the Oscar over your head. It isn't ta-da, and it doesn't magically do everything that you dreamed or hoped it would do for you. It's nice. Or did I have, yeah, it was nice. It was a wonderful accomplishment. I love achievement and accomplishment. And it was my peers telling me, hey, you did excellent. That gave me a certain sense of validation and all kinds of wonderful things.

45:15But I don't think I honestly didn't have. I didn't have. Goofy expectations of what it would do if. I never really got it. I never really I never had an objective. You know why? Because I felt like that would be like, you know, kissing Peter to steal from Paul. I felt like that would be kind of a coup de grace. If you dare have the arrogance to get objective and think, what would my life be like if I won the Oscar before you even got that son of a bitch? Who the hell do you think you are? You ain't getting it. You know what I mean? So, again, I mowed the lawn. I just mowed the lawn and all of a sudden I got done and I got lawn of the year and they handed me a trophy and I won an Oscar.

45:57and I was like, oh, wow, cool. Sure, sure. But I never stopped out to go, oh, buddy, if I get Lawn of the Year, if I win this Oscar, what if? You know, I never had the arrogance or confidence to be that objective of gift to win because I felt like it would draw me from ever getting it. As a cherry on top, you want it to be the cherry on top, not the whole reason you're doing it because it won't do it for you. It won't. And I think the other thing that happens, right, you win the award, you do the thing, you pull it off. There's that voice inside you that can go. This isn't what I thought it would be.

46:41It's probably because I need to do it again first. Right. Like I got to prove it's not a freak. I got to do it again. If I just do it twice, there can be no argument. Yes. It was not folly or fad. Yeah.

47:01That's what keeps us going. You know, three times, though, I'm on my way to unanimous now. You know, if I just had, has anyone ever gotten four? Four. Four of them? ah the most what's the most i need one more than the most yeah yeah

47:27what a great place you're gonna take it

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49:37So I love the course, by the way. I thought it was awesome. And one of the things that struck me, so we talked about New Year's resolutions earlier. My New Year's resolution this year with my wife, we sat down and we're like, the word of the year is less, less, just across the board, less. So it's funny because your course is all about more this, more that, more this, but you are also saying less at the same time. Like it was interesting to think my mantra for the year was less. and yet you're talking about more balance, more joy. You know, you're talking about less of things that are not those things so you can have room for more of the things that matter.

50:17Right. Process of elimination. Yeah. Addition by subtraction. Bingo. Bingo. Yeah. You know, less, we know it, less options sometimes can, you know, Less, we've talked about, too many yeses make a tyrant out of anybody. Yeah. Too many options. Oh, my gosh. Paralysis of analysis. Just make a freaking decision. You got a white T-shirt and you got a black one. Put the damn thing on. Go. It doesn't matter. Oh, yeah. Less conveniences certain times. Oh, man. These conveniences are causing me anxiety, bro. My car. I can't even. I'm afraid to touch anything in my damn car. Why does my phone keep switching over?

51:01You just ran into my conversation because you were sitting in the car and I walked in the driveway. I don't want why did you switch over to the speaker in the car? This is a private. What the hell is. No, I should. I want to be able to manually put that back like when Iron Maiden was on. And I don't want to be nostalgic about it, but I want to say, well, well, well, well, well, well. You're things are getting a little. I'm a little I'm over engineering my life. Yes. Or convenient. Less complex things. And actually, I got too many. had this conversation with a friend the other day and he and his wife were talking about they're very successful and they have a lot of staff and they go to counseling and these things and they said they come to dinner and when they do sit down for dinner they go so how are you feeling today?

51:50And all of a sudden they said we started sounding like our counselors our therapists and all of a sudden they look at each other and notice you know what we've lost dependency on each other we have so many people doing so many things and we go that we have no dependency whoa i married you i love you i want to be dependent on you and she's like i want to be dependent on you we're like we got to get rid of some of this stuff because everyone's doing so much for us and we're starting to sound like them right dependency can be about you know more dependency and reliability and more love. And that joy can be about having less of a lot of the things around us can be about saying no, no is as important or more important than yes.

52:38And, and, and, and, and, and in relationships and in life and career a lot of times. Yeah. Yeah. You, uh, you say no to some things. And by extension, you are saying yes to other things, right? And when you're saying yes to everything, you're also saying no to a lot of invisible stuff, stuff up the road, stuff you haven't considered. You don't even realize the stuff you're pushing out because of all the yeses that you're saying. Which is great. The great no you share with me a few a couple of few weeks ago. Which I've gone out and quoted you, by the way. I didn't completely steal it. I said, I've had to say certain acquaintances come in the bookstore, what have you, and they'll want to talk.

53:26And I have a certain limit I can talk. And I have to tell them, look, no, I have to go because I have some really good friends that are here or my family's here. And if I spend this time with you, I'm going in the debit. I'm getting less of them and giving less of myself to them, the ones, and I need to nurture those relationships. So great to meet you. I don't want to be rude. I know you're thinking I'm being rude, maybe, but I got to go tend to what, give more to what I really care about. Yeah, because I feel like who is first on the chopping block when I say yes to stuff? It's my kids, my wife, and then it's usually something pertaining to my work or my health, right?

54:04So when you end up saying yes to this random stranger who doesn't know how to exit a conversation, or you say yes to getting sucked down some social media argument that you don't need to be in, you're saying no to the six-year-old who's not going to be a six-year-old that much longer. Amen. Yeah. Yeah. I was going to ask your advice on something pertaining to kids' stuff, because I was thinking about it. You have a cool life, right? You could accept jobs all over the world. They're usually in exotic or cool or interesting locations. You could take trips. You could afford to go stuff. How do you strike the balance between a cool life and a stable, consistent, balanced life?

54:56Yeah. Well, the definition of what your values change and what's cool changes. Mine are different now than before I had kids. Sure. You know, was it cool before Camilla and I started a family that I could have a dream of Africa last night and head out there today with a backpack with a one-way ticket and say, I'll be back when I get back? That was cool. Yeah. Can I do that anymore? No, I can't do that anymore. Right. No. I have dependents. You know what I mean?

55:40here's something and bless Camilla for this but here's a real and this is a way of engineering the coolness with the stability before we had children before she decided to pull the goalie she put her hands on my shoulder and she said okay on one condition I said yes ma 'am she goes you go we go yeah

56:15and I remember what going through my head is this sort of thinking you know is this independent coyote of an artist who likes to live in his airstream with maybe just his dog around going like wait a minute I don't know if I can do that and as I'm saying that And the little voice of my mother in my ear comes in and goes, you better nod your head and say, yes, ma 'am, because she just gave you a gift that way. Yes, ma 'am. And she goes, okay. And that's been a non-negotiable for our family. Now, my job does take us all over. Is it a family discussion or at least many discussions with Camilla before I choose to?

57:01And she measures me. There's been ones where I'm like, yeah, I really want to do this. She was like, you're not, you haven't convinced me, Matthew, that creatively, this is going to get you off so much that you've got to do this. Yeah. At the expense of us, because we're going to, we're going to pick everything up. We're coming with, we're moving in. I got to deal with the schooling. I got to deal with the ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba. Right. Now, when she hears that and we go back and forth, she knows. She doesn't have to say it. And I don't have to say it. She'll just be like, yep, got it. We're doing it.

57:32She could just tell, you know, I've convicted her, convinced her without trying to, without having to say, okay. But, you know, and she was like, yep, got it. She asked me all the, was she pressure tested with me? She gets all the right answers that she believes she sees my true self coming up. She's like, yep. Then all of a sudden, she puts a lot of stuff on hold for, to get the family ready to go. Yeah. Where we're going to go and move our life there and their life there. and activities and things where she's going to have to continue working on the things that she's working now mobily. And that takes an incredible amount of preparation.

58:13She can't just up and do it tomorrow. It takes weeks, if not months of preparation, but that's what we do. And, you know, in that way, are we gypsies? Yeah. In that way, are we traveling bugarooskies? Yeah. But we're really not gypsies because we're going, because we have family everywhere we go. And we take the family with us. And people are different colors and there's different languages and there's different cultures, but the rhythms all work out to be somewhat the same because we've engineered that this is how we go. We know that non-negotiable, this is what we'll do. We'll program the days from activities and how long we're going to be there.

58:57Do we sign the kids up for certain teams? What teacher do we do? What teacher in to do this or how much of this is online? Well, for a short amount of time, we'll do it this time. For three months, hey, let's go post our zip code there. This is it. And so that has been an engineered, something that Camilla engineered for our family that has maintained a stability in the cool adventures that we take. That's beautiful. I love that. That's my dream too. And I was just thinking about it because, so I had to go to New York for the launch of the Daily Dad. I was going to be gone for a week. They sort of stretched it out.

59:36I was like, it felt weird to put out a parenting book and then leave my family for a week, you know? So I was like, well, we'll pack up the whole wagon and we'll all go. And it was awesome. We spent a week in New York. We did a bunch of stuff. And then, okay, so they miss a week of school. And then one of them came home sick. And then he got the other one sick. And then it took like, we were gone for a week, but it took three weeks to get back into the Texas routine, right? And so I was struggling with what you talk about in the course, which is, was that selfish or selfless? Like my instinct was, I want to be around my family.

1:00:16Uh, I don't want to miss them. I want us to spend time together or was actually the more selfless thing. Be like, sorry, I got to be alone in a hotel room for a week, uh, doing, doing my thing, but they're rooted and they have their life. So it's, it's a tricky, it's a tricky balance. It goes to what else you're talking about in the course. It's a balance. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, And there's a consequence with both those choices, you know? Yes. Look, I had, around that time when we had just had kids and Camilla said, this is the mandate going forward, you go, we go. I did sit, I talked with many elder men in my business who had children.

1:01:02Yeah. And asked them, what did you do? You worked around the world. You had children. Every one of them said, well, it's either dad or friend. And I let them choose friend. They didn't come with me. And every one of them followed that up after a pretty sincere ellipsis with, I wonder if I could do it again. I wouldn't have let them chose friends. I'd have made them choose dad. Because I didn't have the connection. I'm not connected today. I could have been there when, and I have a regret. Like, maybe they got into that trouble, and if I was there, maybe they wouldn't. I've been guidance, and every one of them regretted that decision.

1:02:02Now, look, making that decision...

1:02:07you already talk about, you know, it's already just even engineered. If you're going off, you're the one going to New York, following you. If I'm the one going to my job, it's following me. There's a self, call that self-centered. And I mean that without judgment. I'm saying, okay, well, I mean, you know, and then when you got two people sometimes that have their own careers that can go, whoa, that becomes another thing. We have some friends like that that we watch and talk to them about how do they balance that because they have two different careers and they have. And they're going like this sometimes.

1:02:47And that provides other new challenges, even more so, it seems to us from the outside, on the relationship between them. Yeah. Even more so sometimes than how it is with the children. But we have some friends that do it successfully or seem to be. It's obviously a privileged thing, but I saw an interview with Michael Keaton where he was like, I just took a bunch of time off when I had kids. He's like, you'll never regret it. And so the tricky part of the question is, let them have their stable home life with lots of friends or see dad a lot or mom a lot who works a lot. Obviously, the third option is you could just work less, right?

1:03:34That's the harder choice maybe sometimes. Well, work less. You could also, there's also great merit to children seeing their mother or father or parent have to go away and go to work. And no, I'm not going to be there. Entertain yourself. You know, we've taught you. You know the deal. You know the drill. Set your own alarm. That's right. make your own breakfast. I'll be calling. Hey, FaceTime. Thank you. Very, very, very helpful. Much more than a phone call. Yes. As nights when I'm away where I can just be put on FaceTime on the kitchen island while they're making dinner and in the background walking around, just being like, ah.

1:04:18Yes. Oh, okay. Thank you. It's in the ballpark. It's in the ballpark and helps. and when I walk in that door 10 days later, because of that FaceTime and being around in that ballpark, it's not, oh my God, where have you been? It's, hey, there you are. Great to see you. It's not like you went away and came back and, oh, you look so different. When did you grow the beard? You know what I mean? Sure, sure. So it helps. And there is value, obviously, to our, you know, children seeing their parent go to work and go, no, you actually can't come. I've got to, you know, whether it's me going to the set or you going like, no, actually I need to watch and what's dad doing?

1:05:10What's mama doing? Well, what they're doing right there at a very basic level is what's putting food on your plate. That's what has that place that we have that puts a roof over it. And then you can extend that conversation to, you know, how else we get rewarded for going and working or doing good work or having a talent and a craft that is in demand and that you can supply. So there's value in that as a child. So I'm not saying, you know, that works. You said Keaton said I stayed. I just didn't work. Stayed with my kid. I mean, I don't know. I know I could be a better dad. But even if, look, summer just started.

1:05:59We'll have today. I won't spend every daylight hour today doing things with my kids. They got some friends over. Sure. We're going to do their things. They might invite me in. I'll be around the conference. It's being around. Yes. It's being around. sound. It's not like I don't feel like, okay, we got to go to Six Flags today. You know? Quality time. Quality time. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, I think about that too, right? Like I feel guilty. It's like, okay, to do this talk to this co-audience, I got to get on a plane this afternoon, go to the hotel, do the talk in the morning, fly home in the afternoon.

1:06:36You know, I'm gone less than 24 hours. I feel guilty. Okay. I I missed a bedtime, missed a school drop off, whatever. Then I go, hey, yesterday I was home all day, but I had a meeting and then I wanted to go work out. And I did this, I was gone most of the day anyway, right? And so here I am kicking myself about this important thing that I did. Meanwhile, when I was with my kids, I wasn't with my kids, right? And so the question is to me, not how much are you gone, but when you're there, are you actually there? And I think that's true for life, for work, relationships, whatever it is. Be where you are when you're there.

1:07:19Yeah. Hey, and it's, that's tough to do too. Look, I've got to get, I'm still working on getting better at, if we're going to call that a vacation, we're going to call hanging with the kids. Like, it's tough to go, for me, to go to my, one of my children, my youngest, for instance, and go, I'm going to follow you. Yeah, what do you want to do? All day, whatever. I'm following your lead in conversation and where you want to go. Oh, that's tough duty, man. Yeah. golly you can break a sweat by 9 30 a.m on that on that drill i mean and and and then but then some beautiful some awesome things can happen for sure it can be awesome but it can be a bit sporadic it has no concept of projection of time or well if we did that is there food there and i'm getting hungry should we go get and do we need to come back around because mama wants to does want to we did we agree we're gonna have dinner together at seven you know it can go it can be a one-way ticket and i've i've taken a few with my children you go like how did we get out here i don't know how we good thing we got a full tank gas we can get back home we just followed your bliss all day and it was it was it was great but it's it doesn't have much construct around it which is i think part of the the the the the additive of why it's also can be great for us, but you can't do it.

1:09:00I mean, I have trouble doing it. I have trouble doing that for a full day or over and over. I remember I was playing with my youngest once and he's like, he wanted to do a puzzle. So we got a puzzle down and then he did that for two minutes. And then he's like, now I want to go play with this ball. And then we play with the balls. And he's like, now I want to do the dinosaurs. It was just like one thing right after another that I had to do all the setup. I had to do all the stuff. And I remember I was sort of complaining to my wife later. I was like, can we just like pick a thing? Why do we have to go from one thing to the other?

1:09:32And she goes, you're the toy. She's like, do you not understand? You are the toy. He is making you do stuff. And that is the game. It has nothing to do with whether it's dinosaurs or going in the pool or doing the stuff. You are the toy. And now that I can accept that, it actually makes it so much easier to just sort of be bossed around and to let it happen. Yeah. Yeah. And then, you know, there are also the toy. The toy is also the one that has to clean everything up, all the shit they get out. Of course.

1:10:09You know, I'd say this. There have been, there's moments though that we have where you're like, oh, I'm so glad I was there. Of course. For this. Yes. Daughter becoming a teenager. son hey what's up buddy I had a tough day today you did you're already as a father as a parent going they won they told me they had a tough day they let me see they gave me access and they shared that oh my gosh and then yeah what's up and then I don't know And all of a sudden, you're in a conversation where, even if, forget being away. Yeah. If it was 30 minutes later, you might not have got that. Or if you were looking at this thing.

1:11:07Yeah. Yeah. Five minutes later. Or if you were there and doing something else. And then they ask a question. You know those beautiful and awesome questions that we get as parents? the ones that go immediately into our ears and through our brain and tell us on a cellular level, this is a great opportunity for a great answer because this is going to, my answer is shaping the lens with which they will see the world through for the rest of their life. And mothers do it. Fathers, we do it. when we can pull off that answer in a way, it's not that, but they can go, ah, yeah, you, oh, okay. And you know, you, you, you know, you got them.

1:11:57You're like, yes, that's the, my favorite sort of parenting moment. Um, you know, and that you got to go, there's been some, you know, cause some of those, when they come late at night, you're like, those are green lights, man. Talk about a green light. Yeah, big ones. And you and you and you because you can tell there's a lot of times, you know, teaching our kids and I can tell it's going in one ear and out the other. There's some times where you get access and they have a conversation and they invite you in and the conversation continues and they follow up on it days later or weeks later. Or as every other parent says, they all follow up on a lot of stuff we didn't think they caught once they're out of the house at 1920 and come back and go, I remember that.

1:12:40Like, you remember that? But boy, when it happens in real time, it's...

1:12:51Thanks so much for listening. If you could rate this podcast and leave a review on iTunes, that would mean so much to us and it would really help the show. We appreciate it. I'll see you next episode.

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