Mick Mulroy on the Beauty of Marcus Aurelius’ Meditations and the Collective Need For Philosophy

0:00I got an amazing night's sleep last night. One, because my six-year-old fell asleep in the car at like six o 'clock and he transferred him from the car seat to the bed and it stuck, which is just magic. So he's in bed way earlier than normal. But I sleep really well every night because I have a 8 Sleep Pod 5 Ultra, which is 8 Sleep's best product. I've used 8 Sleep for many years now and it's just totally transformed how I sleep, made me sleep better, made my wife sleep better. It's amazing. So basically, Eight Sleep is this topper that goes over your mattress. It can heat and cool both sides separately.

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1:19But I know you will. Trust me, your body will thank you for this investment in better sleep, shipping to many countries worldwide. See details at 8sleep.com slash daily stoic. You probably heard the headlines about all the different cuts to foreign aid and food benefits. This is having a profound impact on the world's poorest people and the world's poorest communities. But, you know, just hearing about that, that's not what stoicism is about. Stoicism is, to me, what you're going to do about it. And that's where GiveWell comes in. GiveWell is trusted by tens of thousands of donors each year because they provide free and independent research that helps you understand how to have a big impact.

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3:00Welcome to the weekend edition of The Daily Stoic. Each weekday, we bring you a meditation inspired by the ancient Stoics, something to help you live up to those four Stoic virtues of courage, justice, temperance, and wisdom. And then here on the weekend, we take a deeper dive into those same topics. We interview Stoic philosophers. We explore at length how these Stoic ideas can be applied to our actual lives and the challenging issues of our time. Here on the weekend, when you have a little bit more space, when things have slowed down, be sure to take some time to think, to go for a walk, to sit with your journal, and most importantly, to prepare for what the week ahead may bring.

3:53Hey, it's Ryan. Welcome to another episode of the Daily Stoic Podcast. You'll notice my voice here is not the best. I am kind of a little cold, I guess. Well, what happens for me is I get a little cold so my kids bring them home from school all the time. And then I get over them quickly and And then this is what I sound like for weeks and weeks, which is always a problem when you have a podcast and when you have audiobooks to record or talks to give. I'm flying to Kentucky tomorrow to talk to the football and basketball teams over there. So hopefully I can drug myself up enough. I feel great. I'm not contagious or anything.

4:35Hopefully I just can't clear all this out so I can talk. I was not sick in today's interview, although I was coming back from a trip to do that one. I was really excited to do this interview with Mick Mulroy, who is the former U.S. Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense for the Middle East under a longtime hero of mine and hero of stoicism, General James Mattis. Actually, the one and only Donald Robertson suggested Mick as an episode for the podcast. And he was a great one. Mick is a former CIA officer, a United States Marine. And then since he's left the Pentagon, he co-founded the Lobo Institute, became a special advisor to the United Nations, and he's an ABC News national security analyst.

5:19He was the co-president of End Child Soldiering. I have no idea how he has so much time to do this, but he is my favorite kind of Stoic. A Stoic who is a man of action, who's in the arena, who's involved, which leads me to why he's on the podcast. He's not just a practicing Stoic, but a very thoughtful writer about Stoicism. He wrote a fascinating article about Marcus Aurelius as a philosopher king, which is how I first encountered his work. That's what Donald Robertson sent over to me. And so I wanted to have him come on the podcast and discuss who Marcus Aurelius was, what made of a great leader, how one can be a leader in the real world.

5:59And we just had a great free-ranging conversation, which I was really excited to have. And I think you're going to enjoy. I'll link to the Lobo Institute in Child Soldiering, the Third Option Foundation, the Aurelius Foundation, and Plato's Academy Center. I'll link to all of that in today's show notes. You can follow him at Mick Mulroy on Twitter. Enjoy.

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8:11What are you writing a book about? So the book is about stoicism as it applies to political discourse and policymaking. So there's a bunch, you probably know a lot of the people that are in it, but people are writing different chapters, right? Yeah, sure, sure. I'm not writing a book, I'm writing a chapter in a book. Yeah, yeah, like an anthology or whatever. Yeah, I'm focused on how it applies to the military, which is what I usually do. How did you find stoicism? Like, how'd you hear about it? My dad. Really? Oh, yeah. My dad, when I was a kid, I grew up a Stoic. You know what I mean? And back then, nobody knew what it meant.

8:47I mean, my dad was actually a priest who left a priesthood, obviously good for me and my sister. Yeah. And so, although he wasn't anti-religious, he just taught us ethics and stuff based on philosophy, but it was primarily focused on Stoicism. Really? Yeah. So, do you remember that introduction? Because that's a question I get a lot. People go, like, my kids need this. And they struggle with how you introduce stoicism to a kid. And what's interesting is most of the people that I know found stoicism later. So it's unusual to find someone who found it as a kid. So that's like a – you have an interesting origin story.

9:27People say that, yes. And I remember when nobody knew I was talking – I grew up in a small southern town, right? Sure. So people would say, you know, are you Presbyterian? or I jokingly say I'm a stoic. Right, what? Yeah. And then later, you know, in the military, where stoicism is very popular, I kind of like got reacquainted and then, you know, later in life, I just always was. So what do you think about your dad's introduction work? How did it happen? So he, I think, you know, on some of it, it's kind of foggy, but he told it through the stories. You know what I mean? So kids just like stories.

10:04I like stories. I mean, I'm Irish, right? So we just love stories. And he told a lot of the philosophical concepts through the stories, you know, whether it's cave allegory or whatever. And he mixed in a lot of his, you know, traditional Christian type stories too, but it was mostly centered on Hellenistic philosophy. Yeah. So I kind of was just always one, you know. And I was fascinated by Socrates, you know, and my dad did tell me a lot about how he was a soldier. Yes. Like not a lot of people know that. No. You know, and me and Robertson. Because you don't think of a, when you think of a philosopher, we think of them in the modern context, which would be academic, which, you know, maybe soft, maybe, you know.

10:52Yeah. You think of the ivory tower or you think of all these sort of modern stereotypes. or at best, you think of like an old white guy in a cloak, right? You think of Socrates as old, right? Old, round. Yes. You don't think about philosophy as a thing that you do or as philosophers, as people who do things informed by their ideas about things. Right. Do you know what I mean? Exactly. We think of like, because today philosophy is a profession, right? A philosopher is a job, which means you teach philosophy as opposed to a philosopher, your Socrates or your Cato's or your Marcus Aurelius, who were people in the world who happened to teach philosophy largely in how they lived their life.

11:41Right. That's a good point. I mean, I think that's where you're seeing the change today is, you know, for a long time, you were a philosopher if you were a college professor. Yes. You took a course, learned a little bit, and then you moved on, right? And now I think you're seeing a lot of people say, wait a minute, I can live this as a lifestyle. Yeah. Right? And my take, and everybody has their own, is that's why this is becoming so much larger than it was when I was growing up. It is interesting, though. I mean, I've met thousands and thousands of people now who are interested in socialism. And almost none of them say, I learned about it when I was young.

12:17And then almost none of them say, I learned about it in school or in college. It has this, it's almost like, are you in the secret club? You know what I mean? It's like somebody gave them, somebody outside of an academic or an educational environment, outside of a schooling environment, said, hey, this might work for you. That's funny you should say that. So I was just at, it's called the Doha Forum. It's a, you know, a lot of policy people, which is my last job, were there. And I was sitting at a table. I finally saw a bunch of young Americans. Yeah. Because it's, you know, it's like 55 countries or whatever.

12:54So I sat down and started asking about the conference. And they're like, hey, you're that dude that talks about stoicism. Yeah. I'm like, yeah. And I was like, I'm actually going on your podcast. Like, no kidding. And that was the rest of the conversation. So these were all young, you know, pretty successful, really successful, honestly, guys in the policy world who didn't want to talk about any of the damn thing. They were like, I want to talk about stoicism. So we spent, I don't know, an hour talking about stoicism. And I think it was almost like the Fight Club time, even though it's not, but although there's a lot of things about Fight Club that are very stoic.

13:30And then not so much, but yes. Yeah, right. No, no, it's weird. I interviewed General McMaster a couple of years ago and I said, you know, he had told me that he'd read the books And I said, how did you hear about my books? I assumed he probably heard about stoicism in the army. But I was wondering how he'd heard about my books. And he was like, oh, you know, it was this this this sheik in Abu Dhabi. And I go, what? You know, and the idea that this this person, this, you know, a sheik who is in national security is giving it to a general in American national security and sort of being passed around.

14:02It seems the secret club thing seems weird. And then you go, when you open the beginning of meditations, one of my favorite passages is Marcus is talking about at the beginning, he goes, Marcus talks about how Rusticus gives him a copy of Epictetus's lectures from his own library. So you go back 2000 years and the secret club is there. His philosophy teacher goes, okay, for today's lessons, we have all this stuff. But when you're done, I think you should read this. Yeah. You know what I mean? And so for Stoicism to be this tradition that's being passed down, and we don't know where he gets Epictetus's lectures.

14:43It's either Arian's copy or they're his. Like there's a version where Rusticus personally attends Epictetus's lectures and is giving Marcus his own notes. Oh, no kidding. I always assumed it was Arian, right? I mean, Marcus certainly read Arian because the quotes match up, but it's not, we don't know when that book starts circulating. So there's an overlap between Rusticus and Epictetus. So they could have also just met, right? Because Hadrian attends the lectures too. But the idea of the secret club being this thing for thousands of years, even amongst the Stoics, being like, you got to check this out.

15:24This shit works. Is the really cool part about Stoicism. and then the idea that that tradition continues today. I totally think it does. And I think like, you know, obviously I was in the military. My son's in the military. A lot of these books are required reading in the military. Your books are required reading. The list. They just, yeah, the list. It's literally the list, right? It's not a secret, but then as far as stoicism, you see it like getting handed down that way. People talk about it. Like it's almost like you need to get involved in this. Yes. Not a lot of people know it now, but it's going to be.

15:59And it's, I think that's part of it. I do think it's part of that kind of club. Yeah. And, and, and, and what I think is interesting too, is like, so he gets the recommendation just like everyone gets the reading list, but it's not mandatory. Do you know what I mean? And it's, it's the suggestion. So he gives him the book, but then he reads it. Right. And so the thing about the secret club is that you have to, it only works if you do the work, right? Like, Like the ideas are there and they've been there for thousands of years. And more and more people might be turned on to it. But then ultimately it falls on the individual to go like, I'm actually going to check this out.

16:40Like I'm actually going to read it. And then is it going to reach me at the right time? Am I going to be open to it? But I just love this idea that this tradition has been going on for so long. And it's one thing to learn about it, which is great. Another thing to live it. Yes, of course. That's the part that I think some people peel off, but then they come back. Yes. Right? It's like any kind of, I think, philosophy where it really focuses on virtue. You know, you got to live. For me, it's one of those things that it helps because I really don't like hypocrites. Yeah. I really don't want to be one.

17:11Sure. So if I'm going to come on and talk about this stuff. Yeah. Then if I don't do the right thing later, you know, I got to hold myself accountable, right? Yeah. If you're going to get on and talk about all these virtues and living a good life and you don't do it, you're, for me, like the worst. If you're going to be a bad person and you own it, I don't think that's good, but at least you own it. If you're a nihilist, the standard that we hold you to is going to be less than if these are the things I believe are important. But I think what's tricky about stoicism, and I think even the history of stoicism, when you look at something like Seneca, for example, all these ideas are really interesting.

17:49They're pretty simple to communicate. They're pretty easy to agree with. But then life is really hard. And they're hard to practice, right? And the vexing, I was just talking, we were talking about McMaster. I just read his book, Dereliction of Duty, right? And he's talking about how the Joint Chiefs sort of failed the president. And he talks about how, you know, it's pretty stark that not a single one of them resigned, even though they sort of disagree with the policy. I imagine it's one thing to write that. And then 30 years later, your national security advisor, it's more complicated, right?

18:21Yes. And so you look at Seneca, like Seneca has all these ideas of what the philosopher should be. And then he's advising a deranged emperor and he has to make – suddenly the purity of virtue runs into the reality of pragmatism, right? And so one of my favorite passages in meditations where Marcus says, you know, don't go around expecting Plato's Republic, which is that like we're all flawed people in a flawed world. And I think the tricky thing about stoicism is talking about getting everyone on the same page is one thing and then having to apply in big situations and small ones. That's the important part.

19:00That's also the hard part. It is, right? Seneca is a good example of somebody who obviously is a towering figure in the philosophy but wasn't perfect at all. And what an apt comparison, by the way, with McMaster. I don't think that was an accident. But, yeah, that's why I always found him fascinating because he is somebody who I think had problems. Yes. At least the rumors of, you know, corruption and, you know. Well, I go, depending on how I wake up that day, I love Seneca or I hate Seneca. Right. Right. So first off, as a writer, just absolutely incredible. And it's like, have you read James Rahm's book, Dying Every Day?

19:49I'm gonna give it to you in the bookstore. It's incredible. He writes this biography. It's called Dying Every Day, Seneca and the Court of Nero. and um he goes this is how this is how good a seneca is as a writer um for most of history we did not know that seneca the playwright and seneca the philosopher were the same person because they're both so good and so different it seemed inconceivable that rome's greatest philosopher could also be rome's greatest philosopher and most powerful political broker could also be its greatest playwright. And he's like, that'd be like, you know, if like Emerson was also in Lincoln's cabinet or something, you know, like it's just, it doesn't, it defies.

20:29Seneca is so famous as a playwright that there's a line of graffiti at Pompeii from one of his plays. Oh yeah. Like, so he's just like, he's like a rockstar director, writer in his own time. But, you know, Seneca is this guy who's a powerful senator, and then he gets exiled on trumped up charges by the emperor. And so he gets sent to Corsica, which I was joking about this with my sister the other day. He defines it as this like rock in the middle of the ocean. It's like, my sister went on vacation there a couple of months ago. So it's like, I think there's a nice little insight into like, it's all in how you see it, you know?

21:08But so he's there and then like his life is ruined. You know, everything is stolen from him unjustly. And then he gets asked to come back, but he has to tutor this boy who's going to be the emperor. And so as a philosopher, you go, this is the chance to make a philosopher king. And he does a pretty good job for the first, it's called the Quinium Neronium, I think. The first five years of Nero are good. And then the rest are what we historically know Nero for. And I think, you know, Seneca is, must have asked himself the same thing that McMaster asked, the same thing that Mattis must have asked, the same thing that people in many administrations have asked for thousands of years, which is like, what do I do if I don't agree with the policies of my boss?

21:57What happens if I leave? Do things get better or worse? And then if I stay, am I the adult in the room or am I cover for what the people in the room are doing? Right. And so you go back and forth with Seneca. Should Seneca have been part of what they call the Stoic opposition, like Thrasia and Helvitus, these other Stoics who resist, who also do nothing effectively to stop Nero? Or was he better as the guy in the room trying to keep acting as guardrails? And it's probably very seductive to tell yourself that that's what you're doing, but it also might be what you're doing. So do you know what I mean?

22:41It's so hard to get, depending on the point you want to make, you can argue Seneca either way. That's interesting you should say that. The whole time you're thinking is, I think I was part of the Stoic opposition, to be honest. Because the people you mentioned are actually known as Stoics. Yes. Right? My former boss, Secretary Mattis, carried a copy of Meditation City. He was very open about it. Not that anybody would hide it. But that was two key components of a different point of view in the last administration. And I was an underling of Secretary Mattis'. So there was, I guess. I never even looked at it that way.

23:25I got that comparison with Seneca. But I guess there was. I guess there was. And, you know, I don't do politics. I was there because I was asked. Sure. Well, that's the other thing, right? If you have a policy expertise or a job, should you not do the job because you don't like the person who is ultimately calling the shots? Or is the idea that you can influence things in the right direction? Yeah. Of course. I would say the latter. Yeah. Now, I always viewed – I was enlisted Marine all the way up to my last job. I never viewed it as being one party of the other because that wasn't my role. You're not supposed to be political.

24:04So even my last job, it wasn't the political. I had a chance to make policy, which I always thought I was kind of the dog that caught the car. I was like, oh, man, this is a lot more complicated. But that's the way I view it. But a lot of people do view it, like I think especially now that they go in, they do the best they can to contribute. And if it gets to a point where you're just not being listened to, I think, that's when you kind of have to opt out. Yeah. At that level, right? Not as a junior level. I think for Seneca, when Nero tries to kill his mother for the first time, that's when you gotta go, I'm out.

24:41Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. That's probably, if we're like, hey, there's a lot of gray here, that's probably a red line. Yeah, that should probably be, be a sign to move on. Right. But yeah, that's, that is, but services, you know, it depends on the way you look at it. You're serving a person or you're serving. An institution or you're serving a bigger picture. Yeah. And then, and then, you know, I think it is an interesting question. When Seneca leaves, it's not like it falls apart. Worse people come in. But then the other, like, I heard this great line there that lawyers say to themselves, everyone's entitled to a lawyer, right?

25:22But it doesn't have to be you. Right, that's right. So it is this, you can flatter yourself, go, hey, I'm going to represent, insert worst person in the world. Or you could go, of course, worst person in the world is entitled to a lawyer, but I'm not going to be complicit in what they do. Right. And so is John Adams, when he defends the soldiers in the Boston Massacre, for instance, that's one version of duty. And then the other version of duty is you couldn't pay me enough. Right. Right? And I think sometimes when we read the Stoic texts, it's very clear. Sure. Do this, don't do that. But then when you look at the Stoic lives, it starts to get more complicated because life is complicated.

26:06Life is complicated. And I think there is not always a clear answer. Yes. Right? I could see the virtue in both the idea of defending the Boston Massacre and deciding that that isn't what you want to do with your life because it is against the principle that you hold dear, right? Right. So I think you could make that argument. That's a good example of one that would be – you could see both sides of that. In Seneca's life, I think you could take it in many directions. Yeah. And what he decided to do, you could make arguments, at least some of it. And I know some of it was probably just a rumor and an attempt to - A lot of what we hear about Seneca is from Seneca's enemies.

26:47Yes. You know what I mean? It's like the reports of Grant being a drunkard are primarily from people who did not like Grant. Exactly. Yeah. Right. Doesn't mean he didn't drink. Of course. Right. Maybe it was exaggeration, but yeah, absolutely. You don't know exactly, especially historically now, where a fair few things were actually recorded, captured, that the person said. Yes. Whereas today, you know.

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29:09Discover your uncharted territory. Learn more at toyota.com slash trucks slash adventure dash detours. It is conspicuous, though. I've said this, like Seneca writes a lot, right? But he doesn't address any of these dilemmas in his own writings. and maybe that, like, I would love, I would so love Seneca's version of meditation. Do you know what I mean? Seneca, I think what's interesting, what I love so much about meditations compared to Seneca is Seneca is performative. Yes. Seneca is writing what he wants you to see him as. That's right. So the letters were likely more essays, right? Yes. They weren't really letters to his friends.

29:50They were, he knew that, yeah, that's a good point. That's why I think people so respect meditations is because he didn't even want them published. So there's an authenticity and an honesty to it, and you see what he's wrestling with. Yeah. And with Seneca, you see Seneca as he wants us to see it. And in Rahm's book, he points out, the famous image of Seneca is actually pseudo-Seneca. It's not what he looks like. That's the image that Seneca, although he didn't make the work of art, that's Seneca that you get from Seneca's writings. Yeah. When you study the historical Seneca, it matches up closer to what Seneca actually looked like, which was a pretty portly fellow who clearly was living.

30:35Like you get a picture that pseudo Seneca is stoic Seneca. Sure. And actual Seneca, which they discovered not that long ago, is Epicurean Seneca. Yeah. You know? Yeah, sure. Yes. Lived a good life. Yes. Yep. Didn't pass up a lot of. And what I think is interesting too, though, like we're talking, it's all complicated. One thing I take that's clear though from all these Stokes lives is that they were involved. Right. Do you know what I mean? They weren't sitting on the sidelines talking about the things. They were in the arena. They were in the arena, right. And some of them were flawed. But that in many ways makes it more relatable to people today because most people are.

31:18Now Aurelius, that is the highest standard, always has been to me, if you read that and you know that he wasn't, to your point, being performative, he was actually being self-critical. And he makes a standard that, you know, I think is why people so respect him. You know, at a time when a person, he was the most powerful being. It's incredible. Potentially ever, if you think about it, right? It's not just then. Yeah. I mean, Roman emperor. I mean. At the height of the Roman Empire. Absolutely. Do you remember, so did your dad give you meditations or how did you come to find Marcus Aurelius' words?

31:52So he definitely, we definitely talked about Marcus Aurelius as a person to emulate for all the reasons that we just talked about, right? He was a powerful man in the world. He could have had anything he wanted and he focused more on his own character. Yeah. And was really self-critical, right? So that I remember my dad specifically, Did he give me a copy of the book? We had copies of the books. So, and then in the Marine Corps, you know, as an enlisted guy and then as an officer, I mean, they basically hand you meditations. I mean, it's just part of the ethos, not just the Marines, but a lot of militaries.

32:32So I never didn't know of meditations, to be honest. It was kind of a Bible. And one of my business partner, retired Marine general and his wife, they just came to visit us and they gave me a hundred-year-old copy of meditation. Wow. It is like prominently, you know, in the Mulroy household, it's like the family Bible for us, you know. For me, my wife, I think it's the Stoic, but more in the Christian tradition, Judeo-Christian tradition. But for me, that is my Bible, right? It's kind of incredible to think, you know, 100 years, I have a couple that are older than that too, and you go, who touched this?

33:05Right. What was their reaction to these pages? Not even just, just think about it. They were written originally, you know, the ideas, but just like, yeah, what was someone going through when they opened this 300-year-old book? Right. And what resonated with them about it? I'd pick a hell of a story. Yeah. Like you follow a book. Yeah. You know, through its chain and what it meant to each person at all time in history. Yeah. I don't know the lineage of that book. Of course. They found it at an antique bookshop. Yeah. Yeah, and the idea that it's also, you know, it's not like a copy of Moby Dick or something, right, which somebody bought and read.

33:44Right. You know, the point of meditations is that it's closer to being a Bible and that you're supposed to go in and out of it and you're supposed to grow with it. And it doesn't change, but you change and the world around you changes. And so it's a book that you carry with you and it carries you also. There's something – it's a unique text in every way you think about it. Absolutely. You go back to it. You look at something you haven't seen before. You kind of talk about it with friends of yours. Yeah, it has a very Bible-type relevance to Stoics, of course. Of course, you can be both, as you know.

34:25I mean, I have plenty of friends that are. But for me, that is – and the other text. But that one is kind of – I already said it, but it really holds himself accountable. Yes. Like in a way that others that I've – I'm very familiar with. I have a teacher, etc. Doesn't necessarily – but yeah, I guess it does. But this one to me is so impressive because of who he was. Yes. They're so – it's easy to be somebody who isn't in that authority, that doesn't have the ability to do whatever he wants to do. because you're restricted, right? He did and didn't. That always resonated with me, although I've been fascinated with all the other Stoics.

35:05Yeah, what's interesting about meditations is that it's a book for the author first and foremost, but because it's so specific and he's so honest and he's so vulnerable in it, it somehow manages to make it universal. The specific becomes what's universal about it. That's absolutely right. And so a lot of the reasons why Epictetus' works too and Charidian and all that are also required reading. But he was – Marcus was also a general. Yes. Right? Instead of being the general in the rear that sat in Rome, he was out there eating the same chow, sleeping in the same straw mats, freezing his ass off.

35:49So it always like was an example of what a military officer should be. Sure. Or any. Right? leader in the military should be. You should not be the imperial general. You need to be out there in the field struggling the same struggles as your soldiers. Well, also though, it's not like, this isn't like a book of military tactics, right? And so you get this sense, I think he also embodies not just the emperor who's thoughtful and wise, but the soldier who's thoughtful and wise. Do you know what I mean? Like the idea of of being both sort of a man of action and a man of intellect. Yes. And that these two things have to be fused together, I think is important.

36:34And it's what makes him so relatable and interesting. He's not, he's a full, well-rounded figure. He is. And I think that's what we need in leaders, right? We need leaders that aren't just action-oriented. They think about where we're going and where we're headed and where we need to be. And I think he exemplified that. Now, he's not the only one, but he's one that most people are familiar with. He also, I think they call this like the Eisenhower paradox or something like that. He embodies the reluctant leader. You know, he doesn't want to be emperor. Right. He doesn't want to be a general. Right.

37:10He doesn't want to go to war. These aren't like wars of conquest or wars of volition. These are things that he tried to avoid. Yes. You know, things that he didn't take much joy in. You know, responsibility and power wasn't this thing that he craved. So, you know, it tends to be that those are the leaders you want. Like the person who wants to be president more than anything is the one you should be very scared of. You should be excluded, right? Yeah. Yeah, that's an interesting way to put it. I think most people would generally, whichever side of the aisle you're from, would say, yes, I actually want the person who doesn't want to be it.

37:47So kind of like the Colin Powell's, right? Yeah. who was like, well, you should be president. He was like, I don't want to be president. You really should be president, right? It was those kind of people who have served their whole life and could have had an opportunity if they had that desire, that ego, but didn't want to do it. Not that everybody that wants to be president, you know. Shouldn't be, yeah. No, it's like, look, Marcus Reyes gets the triumph. There's the column of his victories, but it's not like a Julius Caesar or some of these other leaders who they're waging unnecessary wars to burnish their own reputation for their insatiable thirst for gold or fame or violence.

38:30You know, like the idea of Marcus as one of the only, I think, leaders and great conquerors who it didn't really ever seem to be about him. Right. And he makes it clear. Yeah. And now we know that it wasn't really always about him or even about him, right, because of that. That's why I think it's so fascinating. I'd love to see, you know, and I've written about this in the context of Stoicism, a lot more leaders today that emulates the leaders that we can all agree on and then just not. Yeah. I mean, it's just not. They were actually going, in my opinion, in the wrong direction. Sure. Where very few leaders have actually served anything other than themselves most of their life.

39:16Yeah. It's always been about them. Yeah. And that does not, in my opinion, make for a good leader. Well, when they say absolute power corrupts absolutely, I don't know if you've read Robert Caro's work, but he says, you know, that's actually wrong. It's too simple. He says, you know, power doesn't corrupt, it reveals. That's good. Right. And so the problem is when you have these people who were always about themselves, never had the right motivations, whatever, then they find themselves in those supreme positions of power and authority. Well, there's not the character there or the lifelong habit there of doing the right thing.

39:52So, of course, they're going to do the wrong thing under that pressure. Right. And what I think is remarkable about Marcus is you see him doing the work in meditations, and you see him doing it well before he was emperor his whole life, was about preparing for these incredibly stressful, tempting, disorienting, alienating situations, the situation he ultimately found himself in. Do you know what I mean? Like he's writing in meditations. He says, be careful not to be Caesarified. Caesar. Not to be dyed purple. And so like, it wasn't just like a coincidence that he didn't become a bad emperor. It was something he trained his whole life for and then found himself in a position where that training was of good use.

40:42So shouldn't we be modeling that today with young people? Yeah. Right? Sure. Where they used to be taught ethics and obviously a lot of them were religious and grew up that way and had that. A lot of them, especially in our country, that's not the case anymore. It's not that they're bad kids. Yeah. But we tend to focus on things that are practical for their success, which is important. Yeah, you've got to have a STEM education. But when people go, oh, what's the purpose of humanities? This is the purpose of the humanities. Right. I mean, at least that I haven't. See, my kids are all grown now, but my business partner kids are still in school.

41:18I don't hear about kids learning philosophy. I was just talking to a guy who grew up in the Catholic school system, which is where a lot of it was really the holdout. And he says they're not teaching it to his kids now. So if they're not doing it there, then I think we got issues. Well, even like I think we accidentally taught it longer than we intended to in that when they would teach you Latin, you would memorize the epigrams of Seneca or Cicero or whatever. So you were, when I learned Spanish in school, it was like, how do I find the library? You know, it wasn't like only those who make time for philosophy are truly alive.

41:57You know what I mean? There's a difference between like what you learn when you learn languages today and then historically how languages were taught for many, many years. You were being steeped in the classical traditions, sometimes unintentionally so. Sure. But yeah, you were sort of celebrating the Western canon over and over again, which was not as inclusive as it could have been and problematic in many ways. But there was inherent in that teaching generations of people who shared the same fundamental ideas. Like you think about the – I know in one of your things you cited Tom Ricks' book, Fiasco.

42:38Have you read his book, First Principles? Oh, I don't think so. All right, there's another one we're going to do. Oh, good. But he wrote this book about what the founders all learned when they were kids in school. So like George Washington is introduced to stoicism as a 16-year-old. Right. John Adams studies Epictetus. I mean, Jefferson is reading Seneca when he dies. Right. The most famous play in the world at that time is this play Cato, right? Washington washed. That Washington puts on at Valley Forge. Of Long Island? Valley Forge. Oh, it was Valley Forge. The darkest day of the American Revolution.

43:14You know, they're repeating these ideas. And so, like, it was kind of just in the culture, these ancient historical figures and their lives. You know, when Washington is resigning his commission, everyone of a certain education is understanding that this is a nod to Cincinnatus. And this is why the American Society of the Cincinnati is – there's all these sort of homages to these classical ideas which had been repeated for generations and generations. And then, yeah, when you take that away and you don't replace it with anything equally significant or important, then you go, well, why is this person putting their political prospects ahead of the country?

44:04Or why is this person saying this thing that they know is false but it's playing to their base? And why aren't people outraged about that? Why aren't this person resigning in shame? Whatever. It's because there isn't the sort of culture around it that is holding people to certain ideas or standards. Right. And then what's the result? We don't end up with people like Washington who could have been king but decided for the good of the country not to be, right? I think one of the reasons why people really are coming to Stoicism, at least for my – is it's completely part of our culture. It's part of our history.

44:43So it's not something that, you know, Ryan and Mick just came up with and made an acronym and it sounds cool. Yeah, yeah. You know, it's like, it ain't ours. It's ours. It's literally, it started at the same time democracy did. It's been infused in our, you know, civilization. It feels familiar because you've been steeped in it without even knowing it. Right. And then when you hear, like, the stories you just told about Washington and watching Cato and, you know, Patton having a copy of, I think it was Epictetus' book. But Oda, actually, meditations, right? And then you hear Mattis today, who obviously rightfully is really highly esteemed.

45:20You go, oh, wow, this is not a new thing. This is actually part of my history. They just don't teach it anymore. Yes. They just don't for whatever reason. And it's not that we should cherry coat history. We've had all sorts of ups and downs in Western civilization. but the one thing that I think we should teach our kids is the ethical framework, right? So we can have the discussion. We don't have to agree on everything, but then going forward, it is a commonality that we can use to discuss. Even if you don't consider yourself a Stoic, right? Yes. You should know it. No, no, that is what's powerful about Stoicism.

45:55It's like you could have never read a philosophy book. Maybe you haven't read a book since high school and you pick up meditations and you go, So, oh, like you recognize some of the names, you recognize some of the ideas, but also just the kind of the tradition of what he's doing, it resonates with you because as much as things have changed, they're not that different. That's right. What I think is interesting too, I mean, the other reason I think some of the Stoic ideas really resonate with people is that obviously Stoicism and Christianity are sort of overlapping there at the origin. And then Christianity sort of supersedes philosophy as the ethical framework and the guide to living for the vast majority of Western culture, right?

46:38But part of the reason Christianity takes on that role is that it absorbs a lot of the idea. It absolutely did. And St. Paul is studying in Tarsus. There were a bunch of figures in the Bible who were familiar with the Stoic ideas. And the four virtues that Zeno lays down in 300 BC are today the four virtues of Catholicism, courage, temperance, justice, and wisdom. And then, yeah, you're walking around, I don't know, some church in Europe, and you see those words there. you've been steeped in it again without you knowing it. And it's been developmental in so much of human history that it's like, there's almost a sense of nostalgia when you get there that helps it resonate in the way that, I don't know if you pick up Kant or something, they're like, what is this?

47:33Right. Yeah. No, and I think early Christianity kind of used a lot of Stoics to help bolster it. Yeah. Right? They even made up, I think, a lot of connections that may not even have existed between really well-known Stoics and really like Paul, for example. And there's a fake letter between Seneca and St. Peter. Right. That for hundreds of years, people thought was real. Because, of course, they were alive at the same time. Why wouldn't? I mean, Seneca's brother— They certainly would know of Seneca. Yeah. Right, yeah. And Seneca's brother does meet St. Paul. Right. Seneca's brother is Gallo in the Bible.

48:15So like they're all, like it made, like there was so much overlap that, yeah, of course. It's funny you should bring it. I was just in Israel and I was at a dinner with a bunch of people and they knew my Stoic. They brought up a story between, I don't know if it's true, between Marcus Aurelius' mother and, I don't want to get this wrong, one of the key writers of the Talmud. Oh. Have you heard this story before? So it's Marcus Aurelius' mother was traveling throughout the Middle East, and it was at some time when they were looking to collect young Jewish boys, and she said that the boy that they were trying to get was her son.

48:59Oh. But basically saved the life of the boy who was standing next to her within his actual mother's arms. I don't know if this is true. Sure. But this person, like, it's well known in the Jewish tradition that there was a connection between Marcus Aurelius as a child and one of the key drafters of the Talmud, you know. So I don't know if it's true, but that's another connection. Maybe it was. You know, who knows? But I do think a lot of the original Stoics influenced to a point where they actually wanted to absorb them as almost credibility. Yes.

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52:27That brings up another point, though, which is it is almost impossible because now we conceive of Europe with, since some of the names are still there, we conceive of Europe as sort of being one thing. And to conceive of how enormous the Roman Empire was and how the true extent of what Marcus Aurelius lorded over, it's almost mind-blowing. Do you know what I mean? Yes. And even now you think of like, oh, it's a bunch of Italians. And it's like, sure, but also Turkey and, you know, parts of Africa and just Spain and Britain. Like when you conceive of how the entirety of the Middle East effectively, it blows your mind how big this thing was.

53:18And how capable. Yeah. Like you still drive over bridges that they made. Like our bridges are falling out, you know, and you're driving over a 2 ,000-year-old bridge and it's still as solid as it was before. Have you been to Budapest? I have not. So right outside Budapest, there's a camp called the Quincum, which is where Marcus Aurelius was while he wrote a good chunk of meditation. Yeah. I mean, he dies in Vienna, right? Like just to also illustrate this, he dies in Vienna. He's the wildest of Vienna. Right, right. Which is the front, yeah, the frontiers. It was a frontier then. But, you know, you walk the, what's the river in Budapest?

53:56You're walking along a river that he walked along, right? there's a public bath, like a hot spring that Marcus would have been in. And it's still there. You could still go there. You know, and just how big it was. And then, yeah, the remnants of it are still there. I mean, you could see Hadrian's wall in Britain. And just to wrap your head around the enormity of what the responsibility of that man is. and then he's writing notes about how you're a citizen of the world and you get a sense of what he means. What advanced concept that is. Yeah, or that what matters is the common good and then he goes, he's reminding himself of these things when the immensity of what must have, the business that must have been coming his way, the stress that's coming his way, the amount of people he's responsible for, it just, it's inconceivable.

54:54So speaking about cool historic sites. So I lived in Athens for three years. I had the opportunity. I was, you know, from my old job. And I used to love this one bar. It's a James Joyce. I'm an Irish guy, so I always find the Irish pubs. So I go back for this stoicism conference, which we do every year there. And I'm like, you know what? Did they ever find the painted porch? Yeah. Right? So I asked my phone. I said, like, hey, take me to the painted porch. And I'm going through the, you know, the Agora where it's all. And lo and behold. Stoapokile. It's right next to the James Joyce. Like, the whole time I used to go there, I was like, I love this bar.

55:33I don't know what it was. But, you know, they removed the cafe, and now you can see, you can essentially see it. So they are excavating the whole, this was a year ago. Yeah. It'll be, you'll be able to go and see kind of our, you know, our mecca, if you will. Yeah. And it was, the whole time, it was right next to, you know, my favorite. You were drawn to it and you didn't know. Yes. I'm drawn to almost every Irish pub, to be fair. But this one. But you were drawn there for a reason. I was really drawn there. Yeah. Yeah. And it was just, it was funny because I was like, and if you go there, you'll see, it's like, oh, wow, it really is.

56:06It's like from here to the wall. Yeah. Like from the pub and then the hole where they're excavating and you can see the whole stoa poiki in it. Well, it's interesting to think too, you know, you think of a philosophical school and I don't know. I think of like some, when I think of Plato's Academy, I think of it as this place outside of town and it's beautiful and quiet and serene. You think of, I don't know, a monastery or university. And then to know, actually, Stoicism is founded in the center of the agora as the place of business, the place of both dishonesty and ingenuity and creativity, but also noise and people.

56:47I think it's a statement about the place that stoicism is supposed to play in people's lives. I agree. It's not the academy. It's not the lyceum. It is a public place. Yeah. It's a porch. It's a porch. And they just met there, right? Yeah. And they walked around talking philosophy, which, I mean, if you remember some of the most meaningful conversations you ever had in life, a lot of people remember it as walking with somebody. Yes. You know, I mean, literally. Yeah. It's just one of those things that just is really conducive to open thoughts. Yeah, Seneca says, the mind must be given over to taking wandering walks or like an anvil, it breaks after too many blows or something like that.

57:33His point was that you gotta be moving. That's where the good ideas come from when you're in movement. Yeah, and that's what a lot of people remember that when they had like a big conversation with their dad, they were walking. Yeah. Right? So I think that does kind of like set the tone for a philosophy that is different. I mean, obviously, I think schools are great. Yeah, of course. And Plato's Academy is getting – Donald Robertson is leading that. I'm on one of his boards trying to get that done. And they found it. Right now it's a dog park. Like it is a dog park. I love me some dogs, but this is like one of the most significant places in – The history of the world.

58:10Yeah, history of the world. and they're going in, they're going to excavate it. They think they found, I'm told, Plato's tomb, by the way, because they've done some ground penetrating radar. And there's been some real like scholars on Plato. And they said, if they find it, there's an inscription on it that we know. So they're going to know if it's him. Yeah, it's right outside of town. Back then it was out of town. Now it's in town. I gave a talk at Stoke on a New York City. This is maybe 2015 or 2016. And I said this thing that a lot of people have gotten angry with me over the years. But I'm curious what you thought.

58:47I was saying, you know, if you look at Buddhism, the popular, the enormous, like how many people are vaguely familiar with the ideas of Buddhism? How many people meditate? You know? Yeah. And then you look at stoicism. Stoicism, like now people go, oh, stoicism is this trend. It's very popular. It's going like crazy. It's like this compared to Buddhism, you know? And it makes me, what I get excited about, not from a business point of view, but from like an idea point of view, is just how many people have no idea what we're talking about, but could be benefited from these ideas. Absolutely. If there's going to be a trend, this is a good one.

59:24This is a good bias. I'm really biased. Right? If somebody just says, okay, everybody's talking about it, so I need to get involved, and it actually sticks. Yeah. Great. And there is obviously a lot of commonalities between Buddhism, not that they're kind of coincidental, but the view of the universe and God and how it is the universe. I think a lot of people are being attracted to it because of that. Because it is kind of a more, lack of a better word, modern way to view a lot of things, even though it's ancient. Yes. Right? But people are like, oh, that's actually what I think. And I always thought that way.

59:59And now it's kind of interesting that somebody sought that, you know, this concept. And my dad said, you know, a lot of the world views God as the watchmaker, whereas the way he couched it, Stoics believe God is the watch, right? So even as a little kid. What does that mean to you? So like it's a collective. It's like God is everything. We're all part of it, you know, all that. And even as a little kid, I thought, well, that makes a lot of sense. Right? Because it's not like an entity that is modeled after us that is somehow the ruler of everything that looks like us, talks like us, acts like us, is really, really in need for everybody to worship.

1:00:44You know, but it's more of a universal thing. And, you know, the early Stoics, at least the way I was taught, do agree with that concept. That it is a sum of all parts. Yes. or he or she or whatever you want to refer to it as. But that's very similar to Buddhism and Hinduism, right? But a lot of people, I think, because they grew up in our system, may not be, you know, some people are, might not be that interested in exploring another entirely different. But then they realize there's something similar to it in our own history. You know, it's funny because my books have done well. People go assume that, like, and I'll get accused of it as somehow, like, like it was a great business decision, right?

1:01:30And what I've, even 10 years ago when I was writing The Obstacles of the Way, when I told my publisher, I want to write a book about an obscure school of ancient philosophy, they were not like, that's going to sell like crazy. Because the reality is most people do not think philosophy is something that can help them with their life because they're busy, they've got kids, they've got their job, they live in a capitalistic society. They're like, what is this philosophy for? And just as their, I think their lives are made better when they go, oh, you know, these Eastern ideas about stillness and clearing the mind, like have this incredible, can have this incredible impact on your serenity and happiness.

1:02:12And then they're surprised when actually philosophy isn't this inaccessible theoretical, practical thing, but it's there to help you be better as a human being and to deal with the stresses and difficulties of life. And there is something sad about how limited the actual reach of philosophy is and how, you know, in the ancient world, it was the opposite. I mean, these guys were rock stars and they were incredibly influential. And that deserves to happen again today because especially as people, you know, old institutions, as you say, we have less and less trust in them, fewer and fewer people are religious.

1:02:59If you're going to take away these old things, you got to bring back something to replace it, or there's going to be a huge void in people's lives and they're not going to know what to do. I'm not saying philosophy is an instruction manual, but Seneca says, in one of his letters, he goes, you asked me what philosophy offers. He says, I say to you, philosophy offers counsel. It's a shoulder to lean on. It's a North Star to point yourself towards. In meditations, Marcus Aurelius says he compares it to a treatment for a painful illness. That's what philosophy could be. And just unfortunately, for basically since the time of Marcus Aurelius, that hasn't been the case.

1:03:44That's right. And it's getting worse. I think there's a lot of, that's why I think there's so much interest now. And it doesn't have to be Stoicism, right? That's your thing, my thing, but there's a lot of other, but this one is there. It's already out there. You don't have to reinvent it. You don't have to, you could see it in your own history, our own history. And I think people are finding it. If they don't teach it, not that you have to be a Stoic, but they don't teach like basic philosophy in school. What are we going to end up with? And not just in the political leadership. I think we can all agree we've got a lot of problems there, right?

1:04:16But it's also business leadership, right? It's also military leadership. It's teachers, which have the most effect on society, I think, going ahead. They should all have a foundation. It's not about you have to believe. It's not dogma. It's not like you have to believe or something bad's going to happen to you. But just be exposed to it. Or if not, think about the void that's going to be there as AI kicks in, as you don't have to do as much, right? Robotics and all this stuff is Like, what is it that's going to make you you if there isn't a deep discussion on these philosophical concepts going forward?

1:04:52What do you live by? What are your values? What do you, in meditations, Mark says, you know, fight to be the person that philosophy tried to make you. That's right. And so just as a person without some kind of North Star or some value system, are you just winging it? Are you just doing what feels good? Are you just doing what everyone - The carrying model? Are you just doing what everyone else is doing? Are you just doing what's allowed or not allowed? You know, like these things are woefully insufficient to guide a person, not just through life, but to guide you towards what they call the good life.

1:05:26Like how do you flourish as a human being without philosophy? That's right. Is it just – you just do whatever makes you happy and as long as you get away with it, then it's okay. That is not where we want to go as a society. society i don't think anybody even even a person who would do that probably wouldn't say that right yeah because then somebody else could do it to you well i was talking to uh pete carroll one time the coach of the seahawks uh and uh one of great uh coaches of all time and he was saying that because he had a similar realization his own life he basically realized he had a conversation with actually, so what he told me is he was sitting down talking to John Wooden.

1:06:09And he asked Wooden, he said, how much does your coaching philosophy change year to year? And John Wooden looked at him like it was the craziest thing that a person had ever said. He said, change every year. He's like, you got to have your philosophy. And what Carol realized, this is when he was at USC, that he didn't have a coaching philosophy. He was just winging it. I mean, he was good. He knew the X's and O's. He knew vaguely what, but he hadn't codified it into any kind of philosophy. And what he was saying is that now when he would go around and talk, you know, he's talking to a group of CEOs or military leadership or whatever and go, I want everyone to raise their hand and go, he's like, I want everyone in this room who has a philosophy to raise their hand.

1:06:53And he was like, he sort of realizes the perennial problem that people are just winging it, that they don't know what they stand for, what they believe, what their values are. They've cobbled it together from a bunch of things, but it's not explicit in any way. And he said, you got to have a philosophy. And I think that's, I think the job of schools and leaders and parents is to give your kids a broad, you know, a sample of all the different philosophies and let them choose. It's not like this is what you have to believe. But if you don't have a philosophy, how are you going to realize your potential as a person?

1:07:29How are you going to separate right from wrong what you can do and won't do? How are you going to know where to go if you don't have a roadmap to lay out what's important and what's not? And to me, that's what philosophy is. It's that thing that guides you through an uncertain world where the vast majority of things are not in your control. And to wing it is to put yourself in a very vulnerable, I think, dangerous situation. Absolutely. And if you do understand that a lot of things aren't in your control, and you shouldn't worry about them as much. That's a fundamental bit of philosophy. That's a fundamental.

1:08:07And most people go, oh, yeah, right. I get that. But do they? Yes. Like how much time do people spend worrying about things that they can't control? Yeah. Right? I mean, now, if you think social media and you think about the standards that are out there that are unattainable by a lot of people, and they have no capacity to get to those standards, if you taught young kids, like, that isn't what you should worry about. Yes. You can't all look like some fictitious person who probably didn't look like that originally. Yeah, they didn't look like that originally. They don't actually look like that now because it's running through a filter.

1:08:47And then also, yeah, all these different things. It's not real. Right. Yeah. And I think philosophy, all types of philosophy, including our own, could help young people with that. It's not just, yes, having a moral compass is absolutely necessary, but also realizing what matters in life and what doesn't matter in life is part of your moral compass. Right? And I think that's unfortunately something that's being lost in a lot of young people. Well, you think about why 12-step groups are so powerful. it's because so addiction has overwhelmed and destroyed someone's life it it took over their character it took over their desires and aversions it's ruled their life right they're powerless over this thing and and and it's changed them in a way that's negative and they go to this group and this group gives them a philosophy right these are the 12 steps these are what you should be doing this is what you should be thinking about these are the sort of these are some generally agreed upon proven values and virtues for being sober, for righting wrongs, for living a good life.

1:09:54And then they start there and they're able to rebuild their life over philosophy. And they don't end up, most people don't end up taking everything from it or following, but it becomes a framework from which they can claw themselves out of a very deep hole. And I think that's what philosophy has the power to do for people. That's absolutely right. And so like the AA prayer is right out of Stoicism. From Epictetus, yeah. It's from right out of Epictetus. Isn't it crazy? Reinhold Niebuhr, who made up the serenity prayer, he dashes it off like in a letter to someone. But it was like, I don't know, if you'd asked me when the serenity prayer existed, I wouldn't have said a guy in the 50s on a train.

1:10:35You know what I mean? It seems like it's thousands of years old. Right. But it's not. Right. But it's because it taps into something that is literally thousands of years old and that it's basically rooted in Epictetus's dichotomy of control. But it also goes to the idea that humans have been wrestling with these kind of dilemmas of the human experience for a very long time. And smart people have made little, you know, little bits of progress along the way. And cumulatively that gets the stuff. And then he just comes up with the perfect language for describing. Like Epictetus is, you know, it's important that you realize there are some externals that are not up there.

1:11:14It's this kind of windy, meandering, not perfectly expressed idea. And then it sits there for 2 ,000 years and then he puts it perfectly in the serenity prayer. And it just saved, I mean, it's probably a sentence that has saved hundreds of thousands of lives. To say nothing of pain and suffering and anguish. Totally. I kind of view that similar in Invictus. And you've heard the story, I'm sure, of Stockdale. Yeah. You know, when he was about to give up, he'd been beaten. He'd been pranked. There was a war. And the guy next to him, when he knew he was going to come into his cell, wrote it on the wall in his blood.

1:11:50You know, that's kind of like one of those, that last line, right? You know, Captain, my soul. That's my fate. That's like us. That's stoicism. That is, right? It's so specific. But you can see him looking up, ready to give up and see that and go, not fucking giving up. You know, that kind of, I don't know if we're allowed to cuss on your show, but I kind of felt like that you said there. That's the kind of thing that it does for people. It gives them like, I think, a power that they wouldn't necessarily have. If they can see the connection between how many other people, and it's extreme version, right?

1:12:28Stockdale, Admiral Stockdale. But if he can do it, then maybe my problems aren't that significant. But I'm going to see that line and I'm going to say, he saw the line and he went on. I'm going to see that line and I'm going on. Whatever you're going through. So that's what I do think. There is parts, to your point, you see it go throughout history of why it's so significant to people and realize that it could be just as significant to you.

1:13:01Thanks so much for listening. If you could rate this podcast and leave a review on iTunes, that would mean so much to us and it would really help the show. We appreciate it, and I'll see you next episode.

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