MMA Legend Frank Shamrock On Conquering The Ego and Developing Honor

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1:30Welcome to the weekend edition of The Daily Stoic. Each weekday, we bring you a meditation inspired by the ancient Stoics, something to help you live up to those four Stoic virtues of courage, justice, temperance, and wisdom. And then here on the weekend, we take a deeper dive into those same topics. We interview Stoic philosophers. We explore at length how these Stoic ideas can be applied to our actual lives and the challenging issues of our time. Here on the weekend, when you have a little bit more space, when things have slowed down, be sure to take some time to think, to go for a walk, to sit with your journal, and most importantly, to prepare for what the week ahead may bring.

2:24Hey, it's Ryan Holiday. Welcome to another episode of the Daily Stoic Podcast. Many, many, many, many, many years ago, I read a book called A Fighter's Heart by Sam Sheridan. Then he wrote another book called A Fighter's Mind. Both are very good. I believe I carry one of them here at the Painted Porch. I think one of the best books I've ever read about the mindset of what it takes to be a champion, not just in sports, but in like a brutal combat sport. I read it when I was training in jujitsu, right around the time I was riding The Obstacle is the Way. And one of the characters that I found most interesting in the book was this guy, Frank Shamrock, who I'd actually missed.

3:07I watch UFC stuff, Mixed Martial Arts every once in a while, but I'd actually missed because he was sort of one of the earliest MMA champions. but he was just this fascinating character in the book. I read the interview with him in it. And then I went and I read his memoir, Uncaged, My Life as a Champion MMA Fighter. And then as I was sitting down and writing Ego is the Enemy, the things that I'd heard from Frank Shamrock in that book, in those books came pouring back. And he ended up being in one of my favorite chapters in that book, the chapter about being and staying a student, finding a mentor, apprenticing under someone.

3:44But then also training against and with someone and then paying that forward, all things I've very much experienced in my life. And it was a cool little part of the book. And it wasn't until many, many years later that I was on Instagram and I noticed that Frank Shamrock was following me. And I said, what? No way. How cool is that? This person who, you know, obviously I knew was a real person, but I'd interacted with primarily as material in my book is now aware of my work. Like, how cool is that? And we ended up chatting and I asked him if he wanted to be on the podcast sometime. And it turned out he was swinging through Austin for South by Southwest.

4:25And I said, hey, do you want to come in and do an in-studio interview? Which he did. And it was just an awesome experience. I really enjoyed it. I'm appreciative of him coming out. And we had an amazing conversation. He has a fascinating life story. He was brought up in a broken family. His early life had violence and poverty and trouble in it. Became a ward of the state of California, a prison inmate by 18. But just a couple of years later, he was a world famous champion. He was the first UFC middleweight champion. He retired the first time totally undefeated. and he fought for almost 16 years.

5:02He was undefeated for 10 of those. And while he's no longer fighting himself, he's continuing that plus minus equal framework that I talked about in Ego is the Enemy. And it was really cool for him to stop by the studio and tell me all about it. And he told me a story. You're gonna have to stay to the end of this interview. He told me a crazy story of somebody who heard about him through one of my books, which absolutely blew my mind. So I'll leave that for you. You go to frankshamrock.com. You can follow him on Instagram at Frank Shamrock. You can check out his book, Uncaged, My Life as a Champion, MMA Fighter.

5:40You can watch all his fights on YouTube and enjoy this interview with the one and only champion and perpetual student and teacher, Frank Shamrock.

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7:06So he's in bed way earlier than normal. But I sleep really well every night because I have a 8 Sleep Pod 5 Ultra, which is 8 Sleep's best product. I've used Eight Sleep for many years now, and it's just totally transformed how I sleep, made me sleep better, made my wife sleep better. It's amazing. So basically, Eight Sleep is this topper that goes over your mattress. It can heat and cool both sides separately. It can raise and lower each side separately. So it helps you fall asleep faster, stay asleep, and then wake up better. Eight Sleep buzzes me to wake gently every morning as opposed to some loud blaring alarm.

7:49And then I can check the app and it tells me my sleep score. It even helps me optimize my day based on how I slept. If you want to survive the holidays like a pro and just generally sleep better, head over to eightsleep.com slash Daily Stoic and use code Daily Stoic to get$350 off your very own Pod 5 Ultra. The best part is you still get 30 days to try it at home and return it if you don't like it. But I know you will. Trust me, your body will thank you for this investment in Better Sleep, shipping to many countries worldwide. See details at 8sleep.com slash Daily Stoic.

8:27So when do you go home? How long are you here for? I go home at 8 o 'clock tomorrow night. Tomorrow. All right. You like you have a good time? Yeah, it's a blast. I mean, you know, I just run around, do whatever I want and see all the cool stuff. and that's kind of nice. Usually I'm working, so. Yeah, it is weird. I noticed like you can get used to, this is a very first world problem. It actually sounds a little egotistical, which is where I want to start, but you get used to being like special because you're like, you're always invited. You're always talking, you know, maybe you're representing a company and then you're just like, this is how it's supposed to be.

9:02And then you go and you're just like a regular person and you're like, oh yeah, this is how life actually is. There's just nobody cares. There's one of a billion. You need that. Yeah, yeah. There's not like a book that has your bio in it and your photos. Oh my gosh, yeah. I'm enjoying it though. Because one of the things I used to do back in the early fighting days, when a sport was just starting and I was unsure, when I was like, this seems a little sketchy, I used to go to fights and I would sit in the audience. Like a regular fan. Like a regular person, like second level, you know, way in the back and I'd sit next to, you know, some old grandma and I would communicate with her and I would have the experience she was having.

9:45And when I did that enough times, I went, this sport is going to be very successful. Right. And you're like, I think we're on a list. You know, like the, like you just get used to like, like you show up at a thing and you're like, the line is not for me. And you really, that could, I think that's not totally what drives, you know, famous or powerful people nuts, but it is disorienting. It's confusing, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's confusing. It's not good for the soul to get special treatment everywhere you go. Well, I don't mind it. Well, of course you don't mind it. And because I came from a world where I never had any special.

10:19You know, I came from a place of waiting in lines. So, yeah, I don't mind it and I do the trade-offs for it. But I, and I expect it, I should say, not to be unpleasant, but I don't go. the reason I haven't come to South by Southwest is like, what? There's no, there's not a special place for me to relax. Like I, that sounds tiring and not fun. Well, the Stoics say there's, they're like, there's such a thing as a preferred indifferent. So like that we should be indifferent to like, like I train whether it's hot or cold, right? I train whether I'm get credit for it or not credit for it. I do the work, you know, either way.

11:02but it's certainly better to get the special treatment than the regular treatment right in this you know and so and so you want to get to a place where it's like it's nice to have if you can afford it why would you I don't think there's anything morally upstanding about flying coach if you have the$200 for the upgrade right but you shouldn't be you shouldn't get so used to it that you, so the last minute thing, first class is full and you're like, what the fuck is this? You know, like, or you're just miserable as you got to fly. Like, like I like that I'm in a place where this is very, bougie slash regular, but it's like, like if Southwest gets home faster than first class on another airline, I'm not like, well, I got to have special treat, you know, like you're, you just, you take it, you want to be able, you want to, I think that's the, it's nice to have the perks but you can't be dependent on the perks or entitled to the perks.

12:00You shouldn't be, or you become an asshole. Yeah. That's just how it works. Exactly. Well, I think that must have been interesting for you as I was thinking about like, obviously ego and hubris is the oldest story in the history of fighting, right? The hungry underdog beats the overconfident champion, right? And so you got to stay hungry. you got to stay uh aware you know um but how do you you got to stay humble but how do you stay humble when you're 16 and 0 how do you stay humble when you're literally ranked fighter on the planet yeah it's challenging yeah it's very challenging um i was very lucky that i got exposed to the martial arts culture when i came into fighting there wasn't a martial arts culture it was a fighting culture like boxing yeah kind of like boxing less more street fighting and just, there just wasn't a fabric of culture.

12:57Yeah. So when I started trying to make money in the sport, because there was no money, I started teaching martial arts and interacting with all the martial artists and I found their culture. Yeah. And that had this fabric of honor, respect, discipline, humility, like service, teaching. And it had all the principles that I live by now that, you know, my warrior's code is from all of those principles. So I took those principles into fighting and that's what really contributed to my success My ability to control my ego because, I mean, yeah, my first TV show, I fought Chuck Norris on CBS primetime.

13:30I was like hanging out with Chuck because I was the greatest fighter on the planet. But for me, it was keeping in touch with martial arts, continuing to teach, continuing to serve. I mean, I can't tell you how many battered women's police training programs I've written with the knowledge that I have because it was the right thing to do. but yeah it's tough I mean I can tell you where it got me when I fought Kung Lee because I knew Kung Lee for years and years and we trained together and I knew all of his skill set and I was also the spokesman for Strikeforce which we had a deal with CBS like everything was going you know we were driving it in the right situation I knew I could beat Kung hands down without thought, question And so I went, you know what?

14:20What's more important to me? An amazing show that moves my league onto network television and beating my competitor and doing this great story or dealing with the mechanics of the fight. Yeah. And so I chose the plan A, which was to throw this amazing. And even in that, even as it started, like I didn't believe it would happen. My coach told me, Maury Smith told me. He goes, you block your, he goes, you can't block like that. I go, what are you talking about? He goes, someone's going to break your arm. And this was what I said. This was my moment of hubris. I'll share it with the world. I said, nobody's going to break my fucking arm.

14:57And he just went, okay. And we go right back to training. In the fight, I, boop, he breaks my arm. Yeah. And I just went, huh, that was really bad. I was reading about Floyd Patterson and he was saying, when he fought Ingmar for the first time, he was like, I got in the ring and I wasn't afraid. And he's like, you have to be afraid. Yeah. And he had deep fears. Like he was, I mean, costumes, like he had all kinds of stuff, you know. Yeah. But just that the fear was the sign that you were on edge, that you were taking it seriously, that you knew it was a life or death thing, that it could go either way.

15:42and if you're too comfortable, that's probably not confidence. That's probably ego. Yeah, definitely. I was always afraid in my fights. I was terrified. Yeah. Because it's violent and dangerous and I'm trying to kill people. I'm not sure what everyone else is doing. I'm literally trying to take people's lives with my hands. Is there a difference between confidence and ego? Yeah, totally. What's the difference?

16:08Ego, it's not real. It's all fake. It's all BS. It's literally just BS. It's someone, it's, you've made it up because of other reinforcements. It's not actually real. Confidence is real. Confidence is earned. Confidence is earned. Confidence is work. Confidence is, I am confident that I can teach you martial arts and you'll be the greatest martial artist your body can handle because I know for a fact what I know. And that's confidence. I talk about martial arts. They're all facts. Ego is not a fact. It's just thoughts and ideas. Right. It's like if you've done something many, many times, you're not confident how exactly it will go or how long it will take, but you have confidence that you can do it again.

16:55Absolutely. That's real. Yeah. That's science. The rest of it is, you know, if someone tells me I'm handsome every day for 10 years, I'm going to believe I'm handsome. And then I look in the mirror and I go, oh, man, I'm not handsome. So, but it was input. My brain believed it. It is true. But yeah, that's why fighting to me is the greatest human experiment because it is the truth. There's not a lot, there's not much room for lying. You get right to the truth and you bare your soul and you, you know, literally, you know, gut it out with another human being. And at the end of that, both people have changed because you both face these fears that are extraordinary.

17:32You both committed to trying to kill each other. Yeah. And then now we're here. Yeah, I think I was thinking about this once. I was saying, like, I don't believe in myself. I have evidence. Yeah. Right? Because, like, ego is the, of course I can do it. I'm amazing. Look at me. And I've done hardship before. I don't quit. Like, I ask questions. I learn. You know, you want that. Yeah, that's real. Yeah. That's real. And that was my biggest challenge in going through this sport because when I started, nobody knew what was going on. Nobody knew the technique. Like people just didn't know. Sure. We didn't have the knowledge.

18:17And I'm, you know, a nerd. So I'm running around asking for the knowledge and getting my ass kicked because you don't ask in that culture. You don't ask questions. You do what you're told. Right. I remember getting beat up going, I don't understand. Why does this keep happening? Hold on. I got one more question. But it was through that process where I went. I began to realize these people, they're not being, they don't know. And someone's got to go find it. And data is data. One plus one is two. Let's line them up and see what the results are. Well, and then, right, ego is like, I know everything.

18:49Confidence is like, I feel good enough to ask. Yeah. Right? Like, actually, you know, when they go, there's no dumb questions. Yeah. You actually do need the confidence to be like, guys, I got to be honest. I have no idea what the fuck is happening. And mine came from fear. Yeah. I was so afraid that I was going to get hurt or beat up that I just kept asking questions because it seemed logical. And everyone would get mad at me and it would be, I'd be like, ow, ow. And I'd be like, okay, but I'm just, I got one more question, buddy. Because it was my life. Can we go over the safety procedures for the parachute one more time?

19:22Two more time, please. Oh, my God. It's so funny. Yeah. When I started, like, I didn't even know the rules. I'd never seen it. I was in prison. I didn't know what was going on. So I didn't even know you could tap. I didn't know anything. No understanding. And as I got the knowledge, it just didn't make sense. You know, no one really knew. Sure. And that journey in and of itself was so hard for me to, because people had their egos. Oh, I'm the master. Well, of course I know. Let me show you my way. I'm like, okay, well, what about biomechanics? What about this? What about this need I have? These guys are trying to hurt me.

19:52Right. So it was a really interesting human experience to go through that. Ego, major blocker for me getting knowledge until I just got so dang good that everyone was like, well, better tell them. He's going to, he's not stomping. Yeah. There's a, there's a line from Epictetus, one of the Stokes. He says, remember, it's impossible to learn that, which you think you already know. Yeah. And if you think you know everything, you're kind of right. You know, like. You're a master. Because you cannot learn anything else. It's like, do you know the Zen story about the two cups? Yeah. They sit down to tea and he pours it and pours and it starts to overfill.

20:29And he says, yes, this is what happens when the cup is full. But if you go in as the empty vessel, you're open, you're vulnerable, you're willing to ask, you are aware of what you don't know, it's a lot more room. Yeah, and it's super powerful. Yes. Because what I realized going back is I was just on this honest journey. And I had these principles that we all lived by. So it was acceptable. Everyone was into it. Yeah. And then once, like I said, once they got over the, you know, because they'd show me I'd do it. I'd have more questions. And we'd get to the mechanics, the science, and it would start to fall apart.

21:05And so I'd ask more questions and I could see the change. And they would struggle with this. I'm the master. I know, you know, but these questions are unanswerable. And so I would be a kind human and go, well, maybe this. And what about over here? Well, that's how it goes, though. There's a physicist. His name was John Wheeler. He was the guy that invented the hydrogen bomb. And he had this brilliant metaphor. He says, as the island of knowledge grows, so does the shoreline of ignorance. So as you learn, right? So it's like, if I say, here's how you do this move, you're like, okay, I got it. And then you try to do the move.

21:37You're learning all the things that weren't, you're learning all the things that I didn't tell you yet. The nuances will actually, you can go this way or this way. So as you do it and as you put it into practice and you actually interact or engage with the material or you advance in your career, your chosen line, you realize there's all this other stuff. And that's why questions beget more questions, which beget more questions. So weirdly, you should be asking more questions the more you know. Endless questions. I mean, I just go around this in truth. This is what I do because, you know, leadership coaching, I do privately and corporate.

22:13I just show up and ask people questions. Yeah. I don't do anything else. I have no skills. And you're the expert. And I literally, and I just go, hey, well, what's going on with this? And after, you know, 30, 40 minutes of asking questions, I know exactly what's going on with the culture or the structure, the mechanics, who's unhappy, you know, and I'm like, all right. And it's just fascinating to me because it's the same in every industry. Like it just, I go from industry to industry and it's the exact same process. It's the exact same. Usually the same problems. Same problems. And it's been fascinating to me.

22:44And previous to the last few years, I did it just privately. My friends, my world, you know, my people I love, you know, I gave them this knowledge. And I really, you know, saw the impact and the results in their lives. Yeah. And now that I'm kind of bringing it out in the public, I just see the problems are bigger. I'm like, oh, my God. But you know what's funny about that is there's nothing you're bringing from the outside that the CEO or the management team or the board, they couldn't have asked. Right. It's that they thought they already knew. Yeah. So no one made a change. Yeah. And so they didn't ask.

23:18Yes, exactly. This is ridiculous. It's like that Toyota thing where it's like nine whys or eight whys. If you ask why enough times, eventually you get to some core fundamental issue that is the root of all the other things. But it's when you take things for granted, when you make assumptions, when you think that you know, everything stays static. Yeah. Yeah. My biggest lesson, because I turned 50 in December, so technically my life is half over and I'm in the, you know, second. I'm in the third phase. And I learned that I didn't really listen to people. I listened, but I was listening with... Another ear.

24:03Yeah. I was listening with my own mind. And it took me 50 years to really get through that. Yeah. So 50. All of a sudden, I realized if I just listen to people and let them talk long enough, they will tell me the truth about themselves. And that has been the most powerful lesson in my first 50 years. So I literally just travel around. How are you doing? What's going on over here? What's that guy do? Yeah. And 30 minutes later, I'll know everything and their hopes, their dreams, their desires, what they do. what their thing is, what makes them unhappy. And it's fascinating to me. Yeah. Because I just wander around and, hey, what's going on with you?

24:39And they look at me and they're like, this guy looks weird. And he seems nice. And I think I'll have a conversation with him. And I do it in business. When I do leadership stuff, I wander in just like this. And I just ask a bunch of silly questions. Right. But they're designed to get people to talk. Right. Because people want to talk. People want to share. People want to communicate. Communicate well. And if you let them talk in a safe, comfortable area, They will literally tell you the truth about themselves. Yeah, it's like, I find this like when I ask for directions, I'm like, hey, how do we get to this place, right?

25:10Because you're so used to doing it on your phone. And then someone's like, okay, so you go up here, you go to the end of the hallway, then you take a right. And then once you get, and I'm like, yeah, definitely stop listening like halfway through. And I almost assuredly do that in other parts of my life. I'm telling myself I'm asking questions, telling myself I'm listening, but I'm only listening for what I want to hear or I'm cutting myself short because it's like, I'm only going to get half of this. Yeah. And what you hear when you really listen is something very different than when you're half listening.

25:40Yeah. Yeah, it's really, really powerful. And I didn't know I was half listening. I had so much going on and I had so much stuff in my life. And until I took care of those things and kind of got in another phase, got out of fighting, that's when I was really able to hear people like, listen. And I had time for it. I had comfort for it. I had empathy for it. And it's just fascinating. Like it's just, I mean, I just wander around. That's the best. That's the best. That's what a philosopher does. That's what Socrates did all day. Like the crazy wandering dude. Yeah. And then, but what ends up happening is, you know, I meet, I met a woman on a plane, Amanda Blackwood, 10 years ago.

26:16And same thing. I see her and she has this amazing energy. And I sit in there with a conversation and she tells me her story. Yeah. And I go, man, that's super powerful. What are you doing on this plane? She goes, I'm a stewardess. I go, no, you should be out telling your story. He's like, that story would help so many people. I go, let me tell you mine. I told her my story. We're crying on a plane. We both get off. We go our separate ways. I don't hear from her for 12 years, 10 years. She sends me an email last week. Hey, I'm reaching out like you told me. Since then, I've written 12 books and this and that and this and that.

26:47And I want to speak. All the stuff you told me, I want to do the rest of it. And it's only because I sat next to her and listened to her. She told me her truth. I told her mine. We had this moment. And then, you know, 10 years later on her journey, she's like, oh, that's right. That's what I'm supposed to be doing is she called me up. So we got her on a stage. She's speaking for our speaking group now. And it's so powerful. She was trafficked. She was human trafficked for years. Like just said, most horrible human experience. And came out just traumatized. And it took her years and years and years to heal.

27:17And through her art, through her writing, through her sharing, her speaking, she's healing. And so, yeah, I tell her this 10 years ago. Like, oh my God, this is what I did. This is what worked for me. And she kept going on that journey. I've never heard from her until just last week.

27:35Thanks to Toyota Trucks for sponsoring this episode. When I bought my ranch in 2015 out here in Bastro County, I drove my car about halfway down the dirt road that we live on, thought this isn't going to work, stopped, parked it, walked the rest of the way home, borrowed my wife's car, drove into Austin and bought a truck. What I bought was a Toyota Tacoma. And this truck wasn't just transportation getting me to and from my house. It unlocked a whole different style of living for us, not just on the ranch, but in our little Texas towns. There were places I could go now that I couldn't go before, especially out here in the piney forests, through the fields, and on the unpaved roads like the one that I lived in.

28:20We got to go deep into the hill country's wild beauty. We've driven all the way out to East Texas. We've driven across the country. And by we, I mean not just my wife, but both my kids who I drove home from the hospital in that truck. Toyota trucks are built for those who understand that the best adventures happen when you're willing to veer off course. Because you never know when you'll end up on a Toyota adventure detour. And of course, this is stoicism, too, because every detour, every obstacle is an opportunity. But it's helpful if you can handle the difficulty inherent in that. If you've got the resilience and the right companion to make it wherever the road takes you.

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29:41I'm thinking about martial arts culture because what's interesting about it is, again, you would think like a culture with, first off, violence, a culture with a strict hierarchy, you know, that it wouldn't be, that obviously egos could be rife. Also that it could not be super, you know, welcoming. or kind of, what I've been fascinated with in that culture is like you walk into a jujitsu gym or a martial arts gym. It's like the better the person is, the nicer they are, the more open they are, the more curious they are. And those aren't the people to worry about. The people to worry about are the people who are like six weeks ahead of you in the journey.

30:26Yeah. It's the new guy. tear your knee out yes yes but the black belt will no one will be gentler and nicer and more patient with you yeah yeah that's the that's the cloth that's the value that's what i found and where i came from with street fighting you know crime i was like oh man this is a horrible prison over here prison and there's just lovely people you know with the same mission with an entirely different and better culture and it changed my life like it i it's why i always you know when I speak in institutions and when I coach people first thing I do is we doing martial arts yeah because it literally changed me as a human being and then it gave me this global community sure I asked them all questions and then you know we figured it out together well I can fly to Denmark tomorrow and the people are still there training and thinking talking and we still have that relationship and it's like that everywhere and those people those communities they all taught me what a good human is there's almost something similar to like the 12-step community in martial arts where it's like you could walk into any meeting, any gym, any ring, anywhere in the world, language barrier, you know, season, whatever, and like plug into it pretty quickly because they're all kind of cycling through the same thing.

31:42It's different people in different stages of the journey, but it just, it's this kind of decentralized thing all operating on the same operating system, the same culture that you were talking about. And there's something really magical about that. There is. And this is what I discovered on that journey. There is shared knowledge. Yes. There's human shared knowledge that exists in this world. And I know this because I've traveled to countries where they don't speak my language. We cannot communicate in any way whatsoever. They're studying the same mechanics, the same structure. They've got the same ideas.

32:17They're doing the same thing with just a different approach and a different mindset, They had a different, you know, sporting understanding and fascinating to me. Like just fascinating. My oldest just started jujitsu not far from here. And he kind of like didn't really – soccer didn't really work. Baseball didn't really work. And then he just like locked into this. And I think it was – well, I discovered two things. One, like he does better if I'm outside than if I'm – like the parents are sitting there. I found if I'm outside, he can't like look to me. And he has to plug into the system. He has to look up to the person who's in charge.

32:54But that like, even though he knows just like, I think for soccer and baseball, he didn't really understand what's happening. I think he's just as clueless with this, but it's almost like a dog in a pack thing where you're just like, seems like everyone knows what they're doing. I'll just go with this flow. And there's something very primal and human about that. Yeah. Yeah. And you're moving your body and you're connecting, you're learning, you're flowing, and you're in this group. and the group grows. And you understand some of the people in the group know more than you and you gravitate towards those people.

33:26And you know, if I just, like they're not special, more special or better or natural than me, but they just have more time. And if I just put in the time, I, it's, you know what it is? It's a very vivid reminder of the process that different people are in different parts of the process, but the process is independent and timeless and accessible to everyone. and I was, I am where they once were. And if I just show up however many times a week, I will eventually get somewhere close to where they are. Yeah. That's a fucking life lesson right there. Just doing it. And if you just show up, like I tell, we have a lot of kids in our incarcerated youth programs.

34:09I go in institutions, I bring them out. They get themselves out rather, and they get the shit together. And then we pay for their martial arts education. and then we guide them in business and we try to do for them what someone did for me and it's just yeah to see the change in them because I remember being a convict I remember how scared and alienating and odd it is and the culture in there which is just really terrible and I remember trying to get into society and going wow I didn't fit before now I'm like I'm so not fitting I'm just jacked up But being in that culture, just having people, just showing up, you know, and just watching someone teach and then go, oh, that's right.

34:51You help other people. Oh, yeah. He's older, so they're helping him. I'm like, oh, this is how you do it. And so this culture goes in every one of my businesses, every business I touch. If Google hires me, they're getting martial arts culture and leadership because that's how it works. That's what's best for everybody, in my opinion. and then, you know, besides all the community stuff, at the end of the day, you were learning a valuable skill to protect yourself. Where else can you do that? Where else can you get all that in one spot? It's crazy. Like, it's so good. Yeah. Well, so tell me about that because that was one of my introductions to your work and your way of thinking, which was your plus minus E.

35:31Yeah. And it came from the martial arts class. Okay. Just so you know. Watching, sitting back and going, we're creating a system here. Yeah. He's helping him. And we're all growing now. So that's where the original idea popped into my head. So what does plus minus equal mean? Plus minus equal is my module for accomplishing anything. So for me, I apply it to anything I want to accomplish. I want to make a movie. I find my plus. So I go find someone who's accomplished it, who has the - Someone better than you. Someone better than me. Someone a plus. I like to shoot high. So I go for - Someone great.

36:04Someone great. The best. Yeah. Even if it's two steps above you. Sure. Still, it's where you want to go. So for me, I go, I find my plus. I try to find the biggest possible. My mentor, my knowledge. I know they have done it and they'll make it easier for me to do it. And I just need to present myself and get my mentor, my plus to accept me. Sure. And that comes with humility, effort, socialization, communication, and being of value. When the student is ready, the teacher appears. Of course, they all do. And then, so your mentor plus, arguably the most important in the beginning. Yeah. Your equal is your competitor.

36:39Your person who you work with has your business, Crosstown, whoever's doing what you're doing. You need to know what they're doing. This is your sparring partner. This is your competitor. Or the gym next door. Sure. Or, yeah, the guy you're going to fight in three weeks. What's he doing? If he's your equal and you're all sharing the same knowledge and working in the same system, you need to know what those guys are doing. You're a class of comedians. You're a class of whatever. The people, yeah. When I first came up, I didn't know about that. I was adversarial to everybody because I'm a fighter.

37:10They're trying to kill me. I'm all stressed out. I learned to be, to get with my equals and to figure out our common ground and to communicate. So they give me knowledge. Oh, I'm going to ask a question. They'll give it to me because I'm not hating on them. Yeah, yeah. And so plus, equal, and then the minus to me is the most important as this machine grows because the minus is the person you give that knowledge to. Paying it forward. Paying it forward. So let's see, I made a movie. I found a great movie director and he took me under his wing. Yeah. And then I found out what all my movies are doing in that space and how to sell it, what's going on.

37:43I talked to a bunch of guys. And then I found a young movie producer who really wanted to do what I was doing, who believed in the dream. Sure. And he did most of the work while we built this thing out. At the end, we accomplished it because I had my plus equal and the minus. And the symmetry is your plus. To your plus, you are the minus. Yes. And someone's a plus to him. Yes. And someone's a plus to him. Yeah. And someone's a plus to him. Yes. And it just keeps going. Because, you know, we age. And as we age, you know, the second half of your life, it's not about, you know, learning, earning.

38:18I'm in that giving phase. And so for me, it's like, how much can I give of this knowledge now, knowing soon, you know, I won't be able to give. Like my machine's going to expire. Sure. You know, my brain's going to slowly, you know, soften. And I won't have the same value to everybody. So this is my giving. And right now I want to, I really want to define this stuff to help as many people as possible. Sure. Because I've seen the results. Like firsthand, all these are experiments on me. Yeah. Well, the irony too is that it's not totally selfless, the giving. Because Seneca says, we learn as we teach.

38:55And so you're actually – same with the peers, your equals, in articulating what you have learned, summarizing what you have learned, passing it along, seeing the mistakes that someone else is making. You're actually also seeing yourself codifying the knowledge, clarifying the knowledge, reminding yourself of the knowledge. And it works as a real sort of virtuous cycle, I think. And it just keeps growing. So I'm a bunch of pluses to a bunch of people. I'm a bunch of equals. I'm a bunch of minuses. So it just, for me, it's like anytime someone comes and I don't understand it, but they want to go somewhere, I go, oh, all right, well, it's pretty easy.

39:38Let's find out who did it, who's doing it, and who wants to be doing it. And let's get those people together and get this thing moving. What I think always looking at it as though there is a plus above you is a way of keeping ego at bay. Of course. Because there's always someone or something to be a student of. Yes. Has to be. Otherwise, if you know it all, then you're God, omnipresent, universal energy. Certainly at the end of the road. Yeah. Right? You know, like there's nothing else for you. There's nothing else to do. You just evaporate. Yeah. Only place to go is down. You just turn into mystical air energy and it dissipates into the molecules.

40:18So what are the virtues in your view of the warrior code? Like what are the tenets of that warrior code? It's the same as martial arts. So honor, respect, and discipline. And then, you know, we go a little further because it's a human experience. So caring for this machine is of the utmost importance. Most of our illnesses are man-caused. We're killing ourselves for no apparent reason. Why aren't we caring for our machine? So one of our core ethos is we care for the machine properly. Our mind is the computer. It's a temple. It should be protected. It should be cared for. It needs its own care.

40:55That's part of our ethos, care for the mind. You can't think big. You can't guide big. You can't dream big. You can't do big things when your mind's scrabbled and when your mind's unfocused. We have a bunch of tools for mind development. And then spirit. It's getting, doing the human deed that's good. Yes. And for the most amount of people possible. It seems like the, do you know the four virtues of stoicism? The four virtues, the cardinal virtues? I know them briefly. I have a ring with them on. But I feel like they overlap. I wonder what you think of them. So it's courage, temperance or self-discipline, justice, and wisdom.

41:30You like those? Discipline, obvious one in fighting, right? if you're not doing the work if you're not strict with yourself yeah of course wisdom of course you said this is the most important weapon yeah courage I thought it was interesting you said you're always afraid in your fights maybe people think courage and fear are opposites but actually without fear there's no courage like if it's not a scary situation yeah you're just dumb you just wandered in where you thought you were supposed to be there right that that doesn't require any that doesn't require you have to be scared and then do it anyway that is the definition of courage and then ironically the way to get rid of the fear is to do the thing so many times that you get comfortable with it like people aren't you afraid like talking in front of people not anymore no but i mean there's still always the edge because you know it can go bad like if you respect it and you hold yourself to a standard that is not easily met it's always a little intimidating because you know it's a reach to get there but you're you're not so scared of the worst case scenario anymore because you're like i bombed i know i know you survive you know yeah yeah i i so enjoy this coaching and other lifestyle because back in the day you bomb you get your hands kicked.

42:57Oh, it's wonderful. Then your coach is like, what's wrong with you? For you, it's like, no one is currently punching me in the face. This is pretty good. So good. It's the greatest life ever. Yeah. Just traveling around, enjoy it, you know, help people. It's so good. And then I think the problem with justice, when people hear the word justice, they immediately think social justice, which is obviously important. They think the justice system, which is important. But I also think, and I think this is a big part of martial arts culture. I'd be curious to hear everything. I think, you know, ethics, honesty, the personal code of conduct that you choose to follow, not the one that is enforced, not the one that the law says, but, you know, do you keep your word?

43:37Do you give people a shot? You know, do you kick people when they're down? You know, like, what are the rules that you set for yourself that you follow? To me, that's that virtue of justice. Mm-hmm. Yeah, we have a circular diagram, which is the circle of life inside this Warriors Code program that I created. And it's a schematic for doing all of this. Okay. But at the center, there's a big circle called the secret life. Yeah. And that's where all that stuff resides. And the goal is to get rid of that secret life so it doesn't exist. Get all that stuff out because then you don't have to act that way, feel that way, treat people that way, have that energy.

44:17Yeah. But there goes to courage and fear and, you know, we've got to shrink down that secret life. I carried around this, you know, no one ever knew I was in prison. I was a fighter, you know, da-da-da-da. And all of a sudden they're like, what? He was in prison? I said, I never told anybody for a decade. Yeah. Because I was trying to be someone else. Like that was my job was to grow this sport and be champion and da-da-da-da. And that stuff didn't bode well in moving a new sport into, you know, regulation and getting back on television. What do you think of the expression, you're only as sick as your secrets?

44:49Oh, 100%. Yeah, it's the greatest. And it's true. I mean, I have lovely friends that I just love, and they do bad things. And I go, man, what are you doing? But they have, you know, it comes back. They don't feel good. They have health issues. They have relationship. It all comes back. And then I go, yo, man, maybe not next time. I don't know. It doesn't seem like it's working. It doesn't seem like it's worth it. Yeah, it's not worth it. You know, it's just, yeah. But people are finding the human experience as I get older, it's just fascinating. You know, it's fascinating what, how we think, what we do with our minds, what we do with our bodies.

45:31Like it's, it's just fascinating to me. Yeah. Cato, one of the Stokes, he said something like, if you do something hard for good, right? The work disappears, but the good remains. Yeah. He says, but if you do something bad, the pleasure disappears, but the shame lingers. And I think that's pretty simple. And people go, yeah, of course. But then you look at their decisions or actions and they violate that a lot. Cheating, performance enhancers, you know, well, the ref didn't see it. Hey, it's not technically against the rules. Is that how you want to live your life? Yeah. Yeah. It's funny. Most people's secret life is quite big.

46:23Yes. Yes. It's not a little. It's a little tiny dot. It's the main circle. I'm like, whoa, what's going on there, buddy? But yeah, it took me a long time to get where I am today. Like get comfortable. Sure. You know, I was in prison. I grew up in the streets. I had all these horrible things happen to me. And then I was always just fighting to survive, fighting to not die, fighting to just get through my job. Make a living. Like just all these things. And so once I was able to, you know, reach a level where I didn't have those feelings, I was still all messed up. Like I still had all the pain and just all these traumas in my body, physical, emotional, spiritual.

47:03You know, in the last, you know, 15 years, I've just been trying to fix that. Like understand it, fix it, learn more, you know, figure out why. I feel this way. And I finally feel peaceful. Like I feel at peace. I walk down the road and I go, two things. I feel good and I can kill every human being on this street in a matter of seconds. That's confidence. I go, hmm, I think I'll have a nice meal. That's how my brain works. What does honor mean as part of that culture? Because I think for some people, Some people that word immediately makes sense and then other people it's loaded or controversial or it seems patriarchal or something.

47:44You know what I mean? Like what is honor? Well, if my plus gives me knowledge, I will honor that. I will honor him and I will respect that knowledge and I will give it to somebody with great value. Because to me, him giving that to me is invaluable. Why would he do that? Why would a human go, oh, here, take all my knowledge and go be successful? Yeah. Who does that? Right. So that exchange is very powerful. And for me, I'm honoring that person. Like, mow your lawn? Absolutely. Wash your car? Of course. Whatever you need. You know, drive your kids to school? I'd love to because I know what it will do for me.

48:25And therefore, I honor that. when I use when I speak when I you know use my words I use them with honor I'm not trying to hurt anybody I'm these are the facts you ask me a question oh question answer I'm gonna give you a factual loving kind data-driven answer because I'm assuming you're looking for data and if not then I'm gonna try to figure out what you're really asking me and where it's coming from and then I'll reply with that but that's what honor does to me when I I won't teach somebody my martial art, if I know they will use it incorrectly, because that would be dishonorable. They would dishonor.

49:04They would dishonor, because they won't understand the value. So they would go, look at this. Let me break your arm, because they wouldn't have learned the value. But me as a teacher would have taught that value, or I would have never given the knowledge. So there's just this, that's where honor is for me. I won't lie to my student. My student won't lie to me. Mr. Shamrock, I can't afford these classes. Okay, let's talk about that. Like let's not make up excuses because that's honor, sir. I love what I'm doing, but this is it. Oh, great. Let's deal with that. That's honor. Directness, communication, trust.

49:36That's what that means to me.

49:44Yeah, it's like, you know, being a pro, being a man, being a leader, you know, being a captain. We kind of have these expressions. Some of them are gendered. Some of them are specific to specific domains or sports. But it's this idea of like, look, if you're going to assume this role, there's responsibilities and obligations that come along with that. And you have to take that seriously. And if you're not, then you're not worthy of that thing. Yeah. No honor in that. I think about that. I have a little note by the side of my desk because it's weird for me. Like I didn't make any of this stoicism stuff up, right?

50:29This is an ancient tradition that I, because of my books and then because of social media, I'm in a position where I'm identified with it, right? And I've had the honor and privilege of being able to talk about it with millions of people. But I could just think, hey, this is a great hustle I came up with. This is great. Look how lucky I am or look how special I am. I actually have a little note by the side of my desk that says, are you being a good steward of stoicism? So as I make decisions, how much is this going to cost versus this? Do I want to do this kind of thing, even though some people might like it and some people might hate it?

51:08Do I want to take this stand? Do I want to speak out about this or that? I have to think about not just what I want to do, not just what's good for me, But am I honoring, as you said, this thing that is not yours? You possess only temporarily. And are you doing – are you doing – you being a good steward, are you treating it honorably? That's a really important thing I think people have to come to terms with. Because I think people think, you know, hey, it's not illegal. Hey, there's no gun to my head. So I'm just going to do whatever I want. And I think the upside of the freedom of American life is that you can pretty much do what you want and live how you want.

51:56But the obligation is – or the expectation is like you have to decide there's certain things that you could do that you're not going to do. Do you know who Viktor Frankl is? He said that there should be the Statue of Liberty. You come into America through New York Harbor or you fly over, you see the Statue of Liberty. That's one facet of what it means to be an American. You can do what you want. But he said there should be a statue of responsibility on the West Coast. Right? And to me, honor is the middle between liberty and responsibility. You can, but should you? Yeah. Will you? That's that secret life.

52:38What do you do when nobody's looking? Yes. And that tells a lot about who you are and truly what you are. Yeah. You know, because you are what you do. You are what you think. It is what it is. If you do bad things when no one's looking, then technically you kind of do bad things when no one's looking. When is that? We were talking about being number one in the world, which you were. You were the best fighter pound for pound, like on the planet. But there's something interesting. It's like you see that two ways. Like you're like, I am that, or that is a spot that exists that a person gets to temporarily possess for a certain time, right?

53:19Like, yes, you're a champion forever. Yes, you get to say you were number one forever, but it's in the past tense. No one gets to keep it forever. So how did you treat the thing that you knew someone else was going to get after you, right? Did you honor the position or not? Oh, that's a good question. You know, I'm not asking you because I think you did. Yeah, yeah, I did. And I didn't consciously do it. I just knew that I would learn more and deeper if I kept giving it away and like, you know, protecting it. So, you know, the reason I had such growth is I started teaching and I started using all these mechanics.

54:02And so I was at the cutting edge of literally technical development. I was like, hey, guys, bring your body. Let's try this. Hey, what about this? And twist my arm and do this. And so we were able to stay in front of all this development and knowledge. And that was the secret sauce. And then I understood its value, especially when I started getting the results I did. Yeah. So I 100 % honored that. And, you know, like, I mean, you know, when they bought, when the Fertittas bought the UFC, I was hired to go, you know, train them and, you know, teach them about martial arts because they were outside the culture.

54:35I went, taught them, and they didn't know what martial arts was. Yeah. And so they had an entirely different culture and it didn't mesh. And I was like, oh, that's not how I want to hang out. That's a different, you know, flavor of what's not martial arts. They didn't have any conception of what it took to do this and what it took for these people to survive and live and thrive and work together and get knowledge. And they didn't know. I didn't care. And I was like, I don't want to be involved in that. That's not my, that goes against everything that I stand for. Everything. Wasn't that what's happening in golf right now?

55:09It's like, you know, like you're, if you're one of the best golfers in the world, should you leave the league that's existed for a hundred years that has all the best players in the best format and go basically play exhibition golf, be part of the golf Harlem Globetrotters slash sports washing for the Saudis, even though you'll get paid lots of money or should you stick with the sport? And I think, I think if, if, if you are, your honor dictate, honor dictates what that, I wouldn't say, I would say honor makes that choice easy. It's not an easy choice. None of us have had to, to go, do I want a hundred million dollars or not?

55:51But I think we should give a lot of respect to the people who said, no, the sport competition, the purity of it, you know, that's more important to me than sometimes more than a hundred million dollars. That's what was most important to me. Yeah. And that's where I got so, you know, that's why I was able to keep getting successful, you know, successes in different areas. Cause I believe I was a hundred percent, like the changes it made to my life and the things it did for me were extraordinary. And, uh, so I honored that I valued that I really believed in it. Yeah, still do. We were talking about Floyd Patterson earlier, that boxing writers, I forget who it was, said, you know, he's a credit to his race, the human race, you know, and at a time when people were making real racial distinctions, right?

56:42And it's like, I think that's a good question. Are you a credit to your profession? Are you a credit to where you come from? Are you a credit to, to your industry? You know, are you credit to your neighborhood, whatever it is? Like, are you, are you leaving it better than you found it? Are you treating it with respect? Are you doing it honorably? Or are you maximizing your gains, you know, maximizing your fans or fame or whatever? And, uh, that can be a hard choice. Sometimes it's an easy choice, But it's the choice that matters. It's the only choice that matters. I've been rich, famous, not famous, poor, lived on the streets, top, bottom, you name it.

57:26And that's the only thing that matters. And I do all, I don't market what I do. You can't find what I do anywhere. But everybody finds me. Yeah. And everybody knows what happens when you hire me. It's just how it works. because they go, oh, Frank Shamrock. And they tell the story and what happened and what it did for them. And they go, oh, man, call this guy. So it's just that. Which is ultimately much better marketing than anything else. Totally, yeah, because I only get people that are really on it and that really want change and that are really looking to do something different and impact the world that have the same, you know, ethos.

58:01Yeah. And I want those people because those are the people that will 10x, 20, like they'll crush it in the universe. Yeah, and they find me. So, you know, it works out. I'm going to tell you a little story. Maybe you can relate to it. So Marcus Aurelius loses his father as a young man, loses his grandfather, and basically is sort of raised an orphan. And the Emperor Hadrian sees something in him, but he sees that he's too young. Hadrian doesn't have an heir, but he sees that Marcus is too young. And obviously, you don't want to give someone too much power and access too early. So he sets up a guy named Antoninus Pius, who's a powerful politician, but kind of a regular guy.

58:47And we're told that he selects Antoninus Pius because he sees, when Antoninus doesn't know anyone's looking, he sees Antoninus helping his father-in-law, his elderly father-in-law, up a flight of stairs. Just like a gesture of kindness when no one is looking. So Hadrian adopts Antoninus on the condition that he in turn adopts Marcus Aurelius. And the thinking was that Antoninus would rule for a couple years, right? Because what's life expectancy in ancient Rome around the turn of the century? Instead, Antoninus rules for almost 20 years. And so Marcus, you know, could see this one of two ways.

59:29He could see this as this old man is between me and my birthright, or not birthright, but what I was selected for, or this is the ultimate plus minus situation, right? Right. And he trains under Antoninus for the next 20 years. And if anyone's ever read Marks Realists' Meditations, the first part of the book is all about his debts and gratitudes. And there's no one that he thanks more than Antoninus. All the things that he learned from him. They could have been rivals. They could have fought it out. He learns how to listen to experts, he says. He learns how to be disciplined. He learns how to accept the gifts of fortune, but not need them like we're talking about, you know, how to not put on airs, how to learn, all the things he learns from.

1:00:21And then so when Marcus, you know, does eventually become emperor, he's ready, right? And then maybe this fits in with the minus or the equal. Do you know what Marcus does the first thing he does with absolute power? Well, he has a stepbrother, right? And he anoints his stepbrother co-emperor, the first thing he does with absolute power, the thing that's supposed to corrupt absolutely every other king in history. Interesting. Yeah. You know, he names his brother co-emperor and he writes in meditations, not just of his gratitude for Antoninus, but his gratitude for his brother, who a lot of people didn't really like.

1:01:01And he says, I'm grateful that I had the stepbrother that I did, whose character so dramatically improved my own. Nice. That's not a perfect analog to your story, but I feel like there's some, uh, some broad stroke similarities. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. I mean, for me, it's been, well, you know, my story of just random strangers all throughout my life have helped me out. Like just, Hey man, you, you know, a little messed up there. Let me, let me give you some thoughts, some advice and some help. And, um, it's been the greatest 50 years ever, man. Honestly, uh, I don't talk about this much, but in the early days of fighting, I knew, you know, I had to get out.

1:01:44It's too dangerous. Sport wasn't growing. It was actually shrinking. And so, you know, when I started my family and got everything going, I was looking at this thing and I was like, yeah, I'll probably die on this journey because this is super hardcore. And I could tell people didn't really know what was going on and it was unregulated. And so I took that step, you know, I was like, all right, well, I'll commit to it. you know, I'm all in. Someone wants to kill me and that'll be, you know, if they do, God bless them, they'll win. And then, you know, problem solved. Like a gladiator. And then my exit plan was I had a million dollars worth in life insurance.

1:02:17And so I went in with this mindset every time, let's do this. And what I quickly realized is nobody else had the mindset or that backup. And so no one else was willing to go down that path with me. And it just, what that did to my mindset to A, have a backup plan. Cause Hey, if I die, who's going to take on my family? It's cared for. And then to have a real plan for what was happening, happening. You know, that's where to me, if you got your plans in place and you got an exit strategy, pretty much do anything. I was curious cause you, I mean, you had a rough childhood, right? But there were also moments of grace and generosity and, and people stepping up in that childhood.

1:03:00How has that shaped your life and your story? Well, it's made everything. I mean, I, I left home when I was 11, you know, I just lost my family and everything associated with it. And, um, so I didn't have any skills. I, every experience and, you know, thing I'd ever experienced was in a book. Like I just read books. I was a nerd. I was traumatized. I didn't interact well with people. I couldn't figure it out. And so I would just read. And then, um, you know, once I got out of that world, everything was just new. Everything was new. And, and it didn't, you know, I would commit crimes, but I didn't hurt anybody, you know, and it would just move me around.

1:03:38I'd keep meeting people. But nine out of 10 of those people would stop and go, what's going on with you? And I'd be like, oh, I'm messed up. I got all these issues. And let me help you. And so as I got less and less messed up and I got more and more in control of myself, it's just more and more values came from those people. But all of them, random strangers, prison guards who were like, hey man, You know, you're smart. You're, you know, what are you doing here? Like, what's wrong with you? Oh, I'm an idiot. And you're like, well, let me help you and give me knowledge. Only because I'm asking dumb questions and I'm like, I don't really want to be here.

1:04:08I don't feel like I fit in.

1:04:12But yeah, the kindness of people. That's why I do what I do now in helping people and traveling around and, you know, just communicating truthfully with people. Because at its core, people are good. At its core, people are kind. every human interaction that I've had has been good. When there's kindness and love and people aren't afraid and nervous or intimidated or ego or a bunch of crap, there's always, hey, like it's a genuine human connection of love. Sure. And that inspires me. Like that is what keeps me going because that's my spirit. As people give me that and I go, ah, yes, this feels good.

1:04:53What did you learn from your parents and your adopted parents about being a parent, being a leader, what to do, what not to do? I learned a lot from Bob Shamrock. That's where your last name comes from. Yeah. Yeah. The man who adopted me. You know, I was in his group home when I was 13 until I was 16. And then when I went to prison, he adopted me. But yeah, he, you know, he was good with boys. Yeah. He didn't teach me anything about girls, but he taught me about boys, how to lead boys, you know. And then he was a great leader with great morals and ethics. So he didn't curse. He didn't drink. He didn't smoke.

1:05:33He didn't, none of that stuff. He was deeply religious. And so he just stood by some very important things. And that was it. It was that you become a young man. This is what you do. Yeah. This is what you do. And then this is the result. And it was simple. One, two, three, result. Sure. And so it's the first time I've ever had someone explain that to me and give me guidance. And model it. And model it and then do it. Yeah, everybody else was doing weird stuff and telling a lot. You know, it wasn't truthful representation of what I was being told to do. Yeah. So this was the first person who showed me that.

1:06:04And it was just, it made all the difference in the world. I was a lost kid. I was struggling, really struggling. I mean. Sounds like he never gave up on you. He never did. Even when I went to prison. I mean, I went to prison for three and a half years. And he adopted you during or after. Yeah. When I got out, he adopted me. Yeah. He never left my side and, you know, just. What do you think that was? Love. He, you know, he wanted to have a son and he couldn't. And then, you know, when him and his wife separated, you know, their previous agreement was we'll keep these kids. We'll help them. But, you know, we're not going to keep them, keep them.

1:06:37We're just going to help them and we're going to send them on their way and that'll be our service. And that's what we do. It's a good thing. Yeah. And then after his wife left, you know, I think it took, it put a big hole in his heart. And so, but he had these two boys, Ken and I, and, and they, you know, they were the, we were the boys he always wanted that he never got to keep. And, and he was in, you know, we had genetic, we had all the stuff that he wanted and looked for. And, and yeah, he, you know, he showed me love and it was, no man has ever done that for me. You know, no man has ever, you know, just been real kind to me and, you know, just really touched my heart.

1:07:15I really fell in love with him. He was a great man. And you feel like that's got to be part of the paying it forward for you. Oh, totally. What drives it. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Because I know what it did for me. And I was just a dumb kid running around. And he went, whoa, wait a minute. No, no, no. And I tried to tell him some dumb story and probably steal something. He's like, no, stop. This is how you become a man. And I was like, oh, my God, this is what I'm looking for. This is what you need. That's what you get when you go to martial arts. Like, all right, stand up. Uh, uh, sir. Yeah. And you go, oh, yeah, yeah, that's how I present and that's how I move and that's what I'm supposed to do.

1:07:48And I didn't know any of that stuff. I grew up on the streets. My mom didn't teach me a whole lot. She was traumatized. She was abused, you know, in all different ways. And she was just really shut down emotionally and in her ability to share love. To me, that's such a fundamental part of Christianity, people gloss over. But like this idea, like if you've been blessed, be a blessing. Like you've been given a free gift. You must give freely. Pass it on or it's going to disappear. Yeah. I've noticed if you don't give, then eventually it'll be taken from you. Did he believe in you as a fighter? Oh, no.

1:08:27Yeah, no. But I think that was love. You know, he saw me because I was really emotional. I was traumatized. I mean, my aunt found me hanging upside down in the hallway closet when I was two years old, in the back of my knees, just crying in a closet alone, hanging, you know, so I can only imagine the things that happened to me when I was a child. And so I could just never get control of my emotions and stuff. And I was always afraid and fearful. And, you know, Bob just, you know, he saw that. He saw that. He saw I was traumatized. He saw I was scared. He saw, and he had experience. He'd done it before.

1:09:06And so he's like, oh, yeah, hey, line him up. Get over there. sir yes sir get going he knew what he was doing he's like get in line and so I did best thing that's ever happened to me but did he do you think you were drawing on that love and that support when you went to go do a crazy odds against you thing or well so yeah so back to the

1:09:35I knew Bob loved me and then I just didn't have the emotional capacity and stability at the time to love him the way he loved me. I have it now, but now he's dead and I've missed the moment. But, um, I just didn't have it. I couldn't, I couldn't reciprocate. I reciprocated and being what he wanted me to be and, you know, doing whatever I could do to, that I knew made him happy and, you know, filled my role as a son. but when it came to fighting he saw me as that hurt little traumatized boy and I didn't so that was our first you know he's like yeah you can't do this I'm like what are you talking about and it was hard for me to stomach because he was the one who believed in me since the very beginning and now he was coming to me it was when I was fighting Tito and he literally came and said he's too big boy he's going to beat you up and I go what I'm the greatest fighter on the planet But to have my dad tell me that was like, it was hard.

1:10:35Really? That was tough, you know? I think it's hard for parents because above all, you want your kids to survive. Yeah. Right? You want them to live. It was love. You know what I mean? You want them, you'd like them to be happy, but you definitely don't want them to be dead or maimed, you know? And so there's a tension, right? Like they want to be the greatest ever at X, Y, or Z. And you want them to do what they want. You don't want them to get hurt more than anything though. And so I think it is something that kids have to realize is that your parents' unconditional, undying, ceaseless love for you sometimes doesn't make them the best at giving you career advice.

1:11:18Yeah. Right? You need a different plus. Yes. Someone who's done the thing that you're trying to do that cares about you, but also cares about the thing, you know? Like when I dropped out of college to be a writer, my parents thought I was blowing up my entire life. Other writers that I knew were like, you can definitely do this. It's all right. You can always go back to school. And you need that tension, right? and maybe as a parent you have to understand your fundamental bias and go, hey, don't ask me on this one. I'll support you whatever you do, but if you ask me if I think you should go in the octagon and get the shit beat out of you, I'm going to say no.

1:11:59That's not a good idea. It's also why I don't want you to join the Marines. There's a tension there. Yeah, there's a tension. For martial arts classes and your son, let him do his thing. Totally different. Martial arts class is totally different. Let him go out. side talk on the phone let him have his world yes because the ones that don't it's it's it really impedes the children's ability to grow yes because they're connected over here and they they're they're they're more connected here than here yes i want him to tether to someone else in a different kind of energy and mastery that i don't have yeah you know um if it was a writing class we'd have a different relationship to it or something do you know what i mean it's like i I actually want, and I actually think he needs somebody else bossing him around.

1:12:48Oh, yeah, yeah. 100%. Yeah. No, it's so good for, especially boys. Yes. Because we don't get that data. Like, we don't get, no one tells you how to become a man. Yes. Like, nobody's like, all right, here, this is, it's so confusing. Well, they tell you a bunch of shit that they, that they think it's about being a man that has nothing to do with being a man. Yeah. Yeah. Then they regret it years later because, oh, I was wrong. I'm sorry. Yeah. I gave you all the - I wasn't in touch with my own emotions either. I'm sorry. I told you to cry and made you a little bitch, you know, or whatever. I'm sorry.

1:13:16Oh my God. Okay. I have to tell you my Tom Brady story. Okay. Let me hear it. You haven't heard this one. No. And so, this is what you don't know about me. Okay. I don't watch sports. Okay. I don't watch television. Okay. I don't really participate much in society, except for I hang out with my friends. You're a warrior monk. I hang out with people I love. And with those people, I work and I do interact. I do all this crazy stuff with business. Like we, you know, I'm deeply involved with, with, with people that I love. And so after your book came out, I was standing at LAX airport and I was waiting to cross the street with my driver.

1:13:49This big tall white guy shows up next to me and he's got a driver too. And he looks to me and he says, oh, Mr. Shimrock. I go, oh, hey, he goes, hey, uh, read, uh, read your, uh, article, chapter in Ryan's book. And, uh, I wanted to, uh, say it was great. Like really, I think it was the ego one. He's really, really powerful stuff. and, you know, really touched me and da-da-da-da. And I go, oh, wow, man, thank you. Like, you know, hey, I really appreciate that. So then we have this human moment and I can see he's my equal in some way because we're both here at the drivers and we're both in the thing.

1:14:23Both goats. Right. And so we're doing our thing. And then I said, hey, oh, what do you do, man? You know, hey, this is really cool. What are you going to do? I play football. I go, oh, right on, man. I go, well, how's it coming? He goes, you know, it's good. I make some adjustments, da-da-da-da-da-da. And he's downplaying it. And I go, right on, man. I go, what's your name again? He said, I'm Tom. Tom Brady. I go, right on, Tom. I go, it's really nice to meet you, brother. And he's like, yeah, man, I'll see you around. So he goes this way. I go that way. I'm getting in my car, calling my wife.

1:14:51I says, hey, do you know a guy named Tom Brady? She's like, bro, you're like, she's like, what do you do with your life? He's like, you're like the biggest star in football right now. I go, I just met him at the airport. And she goes, no, no, he's married to Giselle. That was her vision. He's married to Giselle. Right, right, right. Who's Giselle? She knows his more famous wife. Yes. Yeah, so that's a glimpse into my mindset because for me, I only focus on the things that are really important around me, the people I love, the people that I can impact. And then anyone else just sort of wanders into my universe.

1:15:24Yeah. And then if they stay, we hang out and do stuff. If they don't, they usually leave with some knowledge or some change or some thinking, and then they wander off and they do other good things. Like Amanda. And she's helped now thousands of people deal with this incredibly complicated, powerful, horrible subject. Yeah. And she's doing it through art and it's healing her. I just met her on a plane. I probably had a couple of drinks and didn't sleep well anyways. But I thought, ah, this has great energy and maybe we can help each other. You know what I love about that story? It's a nice bit of proof of the expression game recognizes game.

1:16:00You didn't know who he was, but you recognized that he was someone. You know, this wasn't an insurance salesman or something, right? Like you knew this was a dude, even though you didn't know anything about it. And I have been fascinated in the way that special forces operators and quarterbacks and, you know, founders, even though they exist in totally different worlds and can do totally different things. there's some level where once you've gotten, once you've achieved, maybe not even a black belt, but an upper belt in what you do, you have both a sixth sense for other people in their different worlds and you have an openness to learning from them, maybe even more than your other equals, right?

1:16:50Like, it's like, do you spend all your time with other fighters or what are your equal signs in totally different domains? Those are the people that teach you the most that you have the deepest connection with because there's not even the hint of like zero sumness, right? Like your success in martial arts or business, it doesn't up or down Tom Brady in any way. You're both just on your pursuit of mastery and game recognizes game or hunger recognizes hunger or whatever. But that is a crazy story that I am very glad to hear. Yeah, that was all from you. Super good. Dude, thank you so much. I'm so glad we did this in person.

1:17:30Yeah, me too. Awesome.

1:17:37Thanks so much for listening. If you could rate this podcast and leave a review on iTunes, that would mean so much to us and it would really help the show. We appreciate it. And I'll see you next episode.

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