Morgan Wade On Sticking To The Routine

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2:26Welcome to the weekend edition of the Daily Stoic. Each weekday, we bring you a meditation inspired by the ancient Stoics, something to help you live up to those four Stoic virtues of courage, justice, temperance, and wisdom. And then here on the weekend, we take a deeper dive into those same topics. We interview Stoic philosophers. we explore at length how these stoic ideas can be applied to our actual lives and the challenging issues of our time. Here on the weekend, when you have a little bit more space, when things have slowed down, be sure to take some time to think, to go for a walk, to sit with your journal, and most importantly, to prepare for what the week ahead may bring.

3:17hey it's ryan holiday welcome to another episode of the daily stoic podcast you might have heard of this i have you might know this about me i have this weird habit i listen to music when i write some writers have silence other writers who do listen to music you know they do like classical music or background music i kind of have this weird habit where i find songs that i like and I listen to them over and over and over and over again on loop. I basically suck the marrow out of them. And they get me into an emotional headspace. They get me into a place where I can sort of loop in or lock into a rhythm.

3:56And it's all my writing is done that way. And there's this musician, I first heard her on, was it Sun Radio in Austin, or it might've been Andy Langer's show on ACL radio, but I heard Morgan Wade's song Wilder Days, which is an awesome song. And that was the first one of hers that I started listening to on loop. Then she has a song called Take Me Away. I've listened to like several hundred times. She has a song, If I Was Your Lover, that's very good. And a bunch of other ones, her new album Psychopath, I've listened to a bunch of times. There's a new song on there that I really like. 27 Club is good.

4:30Domino. I listened to this song Domino a bunch of times. Anyways, it's funny. I got hooked on her stuff just as I found that she was a fan of my stuff. She'd been sharing some on social media. She followed me. We got connected. She's one of Nashville's sort of hottest up and coming artists. People are huge fans. I saw her in a small venue in Austin maybe a year ago. And then she was off perform with Alanis Morissette at the CMT Awards. And now she's headlining this new album. It's huge, as we talk about in today's episode, that the fame is sort of, you know, suddenly, it was slowly and then all at once for her, right?

5:08And well-deserved because she's awesome. And she's also a total badass, as we talk about in today's episode. She has this intense physical practice of weightlifting, running. She's about to do an ultra marathoner. Just someone I am now, someone I am a big fan of, someone I was really looking forward to having on the podcast. she was looking forward to coming on she showed me after we were done i wish she would have told me while we're doing it but she was wearing the daily stoic memento mori necklace so she's a big reader and a great musician and someone that you should check out on spotify you may have seen actually i think i wore a morgan wade shirt in the troy baker interview in the daily stoic studio i didn't wear obviously when morgan was here that would have been weird but we went around the store and did, we went around the store and did some book recommendations before.

5:56So I'll bring you that at some point also. Without further ado, here's my interview with Morgan Wade. You can follow her on Instagram at MorganWadeMusic. Her latest album is Psychopath. So here's my interview with the one and only Morgan Wade. I think you're going to be a big fan.

6:16So are you playing tonight? Yeah, I think probably like 3.15, something like that. Any afternoon? Yeah. yeah no no no i'm an early and i like to play earlier too really with that yeah yeah i like good i can't i'm not like a night owl really i'm like an early early bird i get up early so that's not a very musician thing no it's not and my mom says that all the time she's like i'm so surprised because i've always been like that let's go bed early get up early so yeah i did this book with these rappers this one time they were like let's meet in the studio at one and i thought it was like afternoon they're like no let's meet there i was like how could you be starting at this time this is insane yeah yeah i wonder how much of that is like sort of like acting like i wonder if everyone's actually probably not that way and then they're just i don't know i there are some people that i've worked with and they're like that and they just get going like late at night but i'm like no yeah i feel like working normal regular person hours is way better yeah A lot of the LA people to write with in LA, if you want to do a co-write or anything like that, it's not before lunchtime.

7:31Some of them want to start at 3 p.m. Right. And I'm like, you got to understand, I'm on that East Coast time. That's six for me. Yeah. I'm winding down at that point. Yeah. and then also i feel like that means yeah like if you're someone who wakes up early you work out you eat you do stuff you're you're not peaking at three you're like already on the decline oh yeah yeah you got to figure out when you're i think creatively you have to figure out when you're peaking and then you have to design your life around that which i guess would be weird if you peak at 1 1 a.m that makes you into a vampire or something yeah that's not me it's not me do you so you're wait what time do you get up uh this morning i got up like 4 45 so why why that i don't know i just wake up early normally i get up go to the gym um early okay i like to beat everybody else in there so i don't have to fight for anything when i'm at home i get up around that time and i get up i make my coffee i come sit back down with the dog i read and journal do all that stuff and then i'll go hit the gym and yeah walk me through your morning routine so what are you doing so yeah on the road's a little different but if we if we go like when i'm at home yeah wake up you know around five ish 4 45 five ish sometimes a little bit 5 15 um have my coffee sit there with the dog i read journal and just kind of like chill for a minute like what's a minute huh like 45 minutes something like that so i'm out i try to be out the door by six o 'clock Okay, to go to the gym.

9:02Yeah, it takes me about 15, 20 minutes to get to the gym. And then it's either, because there's a class there a few days a week, and so they like take up the whole gym. Yeah. And so it's either get there like 4.30. Yeah. Or try to be there by 7. To be decided. Yeah, so it depends. But yeah, go to the gym for a couple hours. A couple hours? Yeah, I'm in there for a bit. Oh, wow. I go to the coffee shop in town, go sit, have coffee. I meet my friends there or whatever. Then I go back home and I run. And there's a trail where I live, so I'm like constantly walking that trail all day. Wow. And then that's why.

9:41So that's not part of the working out. That's just you're on the trail just being active to things. Yeah, I don't like to sit. I don't like to sit. I constantly walk and I'm training. I'm doing, it's less than a month away now. November, first weekend of November, 30-hour race. so i'm trying to hit 100 miles have you done that before no the most i've ran i've ran 250 mile races um and then a couple weeks ago i ran uh like 30 miles so kind of that halfway yeah wow so but how often i mean that sounds uh sounds both terrible and wonderful like i get what it does for you how often do you actually get to do that though i imagine that's the exception not the norm because on the road right running or races the whole your whole routine like how how many days a month are you actually getting to do it the way that you want to do it it has not been like that uh as much lately um i say lately like the last year basically but when i'm on the road as soon as we get there you know and i prefer to get there early um for a show like the day before you mean or what do you Yeah, so we roll in.

10:51When you're on the bus, you typically leave midnight, 1 in the morning. And, of course, I sleep. I get off the stage. I get in the bed. Keeps me out of trouble. I'm like, I don't drink or anything. So it's like I go, I get in the bed. And we wake up. Sometimes it's like 7 a.m., just depends. And I get up, have my coffee. I find a gym. The headline tour, I had all the gym equipment, like squat rack, everything, and the trailer. So I work out there. But I'll go, I'll map it out, find a gym, go work out for a couple hours, come back, you know, have my lunch or whatever. Well, sound check, get dialed in, sign all the stuff.

11:32And then I just walk, go run, walk for the rest of the day until time to go do VIP. So is it you like sort of idle hands or the devil's workshop kind of a thing? Like you can't keep yourself, if you have downtime, you get yourself into trouble? or is it that it's conducive to positive things? No, it's not that I, I like to say get into trouble. I just, if I stay up late, my idea of getting in trouble is like staying up, eating junk food, you know, that kind of thing. And I just think it's good. It's healthier just to go play, wind down and get in the bed and stay on a good schedule. But I mean the walk, like, like why not hang out in your hotel room or see people?

12:14Like, so you're just walking. And is it because if you're sitting, you're in distress? Yeah. I mean, I can, I say that like I can't go sit. Like I'll go sit at like a coffee shop, read my book or like do those kind of things. But, you know, I listen to, I'll listen to an audible book, whatever, like walking around. But I just like stay moving because I'm like, I don't know. I've, I've, the last couple of years really become like that. Just constantly like moving. And I think, too, because I don't know. I don't want to just sit inside. It's been, like, really good for me. I know mood-wise, it's just I'm so much happier when I'm, like, out walking around constantly moving versus just I'm not going to sit there and watch TV or, you know, anything like that.

12:58So I'm like, why not? Is it meditative for you to walk? For sure. Like a walking meditation? Yeah. Yeah, and I mean, you know, if I have meetings or anything like that, I'm on the phone. I'm just going to walk. Yeah. Because if I sit down, I'm, like, pacing. I'll get up and walk around the house. I'm like, go outside and try to walk and take those meetings that way. That's one thing I've hated from the pandemic is now everyone wants to do fucking Zooms for everything. And I'm like, no, that means that I can't do my other thing at the same time. So I'd be like, oh, I don't have a good receptionist.

13:28Right. No, totally. And it's funny because if it's with my agents or with the label or whatever they know, I'm going to be walking around. Yeah. I know, and it's probably, I don't even, I try not to even think about what it sounds like to other people. Yeah. Because there's all this noise and stuff. Especially with the AirPods. It's picking everything else up. I know. And then most of the time my manager's like, are you walking on the highway? My wife said that to me the other day. She's like, you know, it's like horrible. Like you can't hear anything you're saying. I was like, don't tell me that.

13:58It's going to mess up like the one thing that's working for me. I have to stay moving when I'm doing it. I know. I know. Yeah. And it's weird. I think of all, most of that stuff, my routine is sort of similar, is like the physical benefits are totally unintentional. Like it's actually all about getting to the right headspace, not getting into trouble. It's like, you know, not going crazy. And then if it's keeping me in shape, that's just, that's extra. But that's not why I'm doing it. Right, right. Yeah, you know, for me, it's just, and you can tell, like, my mood, I have to get, I have to work out every day.

14:40I have to get up and work out. Yeah. Like, there's just, it has to happen, or it messes with my mood. It messes with my day, and I'm like, it has been good for me as far as touring to not be so married to the schedule. Yes. Because, you know, I have really bad OCD and there's certain things that I'm just extremely particular about. And so it was good for me to be like, okay, it's not, everything can't happen how you want it to happen. Yes. And to kind of like dial in and adapt to schedule. Because, I mean, that's one thing that was really, really like shattering to me. And it caused, you know, a lot of anxiety of being like in panic, which sounds dumb to a lot of people.

15:29But in my brain, it was just like, what do you mean? We're not going to be here at this time. I have to do this at this time, you know. Yeah, no, the routine is cathartic and comforting and conducive to getting in the right headspace. But it can have this effect of making you feel like you're in control when you're not. So like fundamentally, we all have a certain powerlessness, right? And so the disruption of the routine, like travel, it can be good because it's forcing you to be a bit more resilient. You're having to figure out how to operate inside an environment where you don't get to determine how everything goes.

16:08It's not revolving around you. And that's probably good because otherwise you become super fragile, right? Exactly. Yeah. And I mean, the biggest, it was like overseas, you know, I just did the whole run over there and, you know, Germany and Paris and everywhere. It was just like, that's a whole other ballgame of trying to find a gym over there. And instead of like looking at it now as like a stressor, I'm looking at it like, okay, this is a cool challenge. You get to find out. And then I got to, you know, visit a lot of really cool gyms and stuff over there versus stressing over it. And I'm like, it's such a dumb thing to stress about.

16:49Like you're going to the gym to better yourself and because it feels good and you really thoroughly enjoy it. So trying to look at it from a different perspective. Yeah. It can almost become like a superstition, right? Right. And then it's not actually helpful or adaptive. Right. Yeah. It's just an addiction like anything else. Well, and I kind of got to this place too where everyone around me on my team was like, okay, we got to make sure Morgan gets to the gym kind of thing. And I don't mind that as much either because it's like, and my manager's always like, stay on your routine, you know, as much as, and I do try to stay on that as much as possible because I know it's like good for me, but.

17:27You're like, I'm not a, it can make you feel like a baby when people are like, and it's like, I can, I'll figure it out. Right. Yeah. And, you know, too, for people that don't work out or don't, they just think they're like, you're crazy. You're crazy. And I'm like, no, I mean, I really, it's good for me. Like I know, I know what helps me mentally, but again, it, it has been, like I said, really good to, to not have that ability every day, like to make it a challenge a little bit. Yeah. Sometimes I feel like I'll just on purpose, I'll try to change up the order or the difference. So I'm not so fragile that if it doesn't go my way, because it's like, look on an ordinary Tuesday, if it doesn't go my way, whatever.

18:08But like, let's say I'm, I'm performing or I'm doing something and it doesn't go my way because my kids are sick or because the flight was delayed or whatever. Yeah. Yeah. And if I can't like handle that, if I'm so fragile that that like fucks me up. Right. Then all of that work was for nothing. Like the whole point is that you should be able to adjust and adapt. And the things are supposed to be making you better, not making you weaker. Making you worse. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. So you worked out this morning? I did. Yeah. Sunday's a little easier. I just ran and hit a little bit of arms. on Sunday.

18:44Like how far would you run? This morning I only ran like four miles. Tomorrow I'll pick back up and do whatever my training schedule says. I'm kind of tapering down now with the rest of them. Is this all self-driven for you or do you have like a coach that's like, this is what you're doing today? I have, as far as like working out, my friend, Corey Gregory has the max effort program and I'm good friends with him. And so he sends me all the workouts as far as like power lifting and stuff like that. As far as the running, I just got that plan off the internet. I think it was like Pinterest or something.

19:21And that's what I've been working with. But I have to have a double mastectomy in November. So that's on the 18th. And I've always, I've wanted to run a 100-mile race. That's been my thing. And so I know I'm going to be down for the count for at least four weeks. and for somebody that cannot like lay down and sit, that's like really messing with my head. So I was like, all right, you know, you've been doing all this running. Like you got to just go for it and commit. And so I found. So you're trying to squeeze a hundred mile race in between the, before the miscecity? Well, yeah, November, November 4th.

20:02And so I was like, you know, I'm going to, I'm going to go do that. And then I was like, it's going to take my body a minute to kind of heal from that. So I was like, well, what better time than when you've got to lay down. But, you know, everybody's like, why are you, you know, I'm running it up north. And they're like, why are you? And I was like, it was the only available option the weekend I had off. There was actually one, I think it was here in Austin that was in August. I think it was Austin. It was somewhere in Texas called the Habanero. I was like, yeah, that's not that. I was like, plus I needed that extra time too.

20:41I was like, you know, you've got giving yourself a few more months to train. But it was the only weekend. And I was like, this is perfect. I'm going to go up there. I'm going to run it. And it's 30 hours that you've got to do. Basically, it's on a loop, four-mile loop, and you run as much as you can. A four-mile loop? Which I like too because it's not like I've got to go, you know, 20 miles before the next aid station that kind of thing so i can set up shop i've got my crew and stuff and you know for me that's good because i can look at it you know like all right i need to try to get this many loops as long as i kept an 18 minute pace for 30 hours i can hit my goals i feel like the but mentally though that's tougher in the sense that you're not having new scenery and you're not like oh i have to get to here to here like the i i think more in checkpoints or like gotcha like i'm going to here and then i'm turning around and then i'm like halfway right i think the the loop of it like i always i ran cross country and track in high school okay and i cross country was always better for me than track because there was less loops i am weirder in that sense where i know some people that that would drive them crazy i like that i was like if If I could find a race that's a one mile loop, I would be so down.

21:56Just do it a hundred times. Yeah. I don't know why for me, I love that. Cause I'm like, all right, I can just count it off in my head. So I'm about that with me. Do you write in your head while you do this stuff? I do sometimes when I walk, especially like, you know, early mornings, like heading to the gym. Um, that's, that's like a good time for me. Cause I'll play like, you know, if I have like a track on my phone, you know, instrumental stuff like that. Oh, you would run the track in your ears and then be right into it? Yeah, which seems to be a thing for me, like just continuing just like, you know, with the running and then with like the track, like I'll just keep playing it over and over.

22:35And so especially like the early mornings, like that's when I'm most creative, like especially when I come back from the gym and, you know, it's, you know, I'm back home by 9, 10 a.m. That's like my creative time. Well, you probably have this feeling when you get back to your house at nine or 10, you've gotten up, you've read, you've journaled, you've worked out. Like you already won every like, you know what I mean? You're right. That's like a great day. And so you're probably have a certain confidence, a certain momentum. And then you're probably also looking around. Everyone else is just getting started.

23:08Yeah. They're just having coffee. Yeah. I'm already, you know, essentially done. Yeah. You know, I don't know. for me it's just if it's like to an adrenaline rush for me as well i'm happier i'm up i've just accomplished all this stuff i mean if i slept till 9 a.m i would just want to lay there the rest of the day because i bet my day's gone yeah yeah i just that's not you know i i don't i can't function like that i gotta be up early there's this dancer named twyla tharp she wrote this book called the creative habit and she's talking about she gets up she starts a routine and she's like when I leave my apartment and I'm waiting for the cab, she's like, I already won.

23:47Do you know what I mean? Like once the wheels are in motion. Right. You're going. It's done. And so really the victory is just starting. It's just if you're starting, everything else takes care of itself. And I think for people who have trouble with discipline or aren't sort of locked into a routine, they think that it's this insane amount of willpower every day. but actually weirdly becomes less and less because you're just as long as you're starting and you get into the rhythm of it it takes care of itself the rest of the way for sure agreed so you listen to the same song over and over again if it's like a track to like write to yeah i'll do that if i want to like try to nail something down um you know with and i do that a lot on like the plane you know i try not to you know people be watching movies or whatever on there and i just can't i'll watch a little bit of the office because that's about the only show i'll watch i'll watch that on repeat um but yeah i'll try to like just play a track in my head and uh we're you know put my headphones in and play it and write the lyrics like that sometimes because obviously i can't have a guitar sure you know out on the plane uh people might might not enjoy that um and so you know it's moments like that that i try not to waste too and it's it's good for me especially like you know walking or whatever i like to especially with the training the main thing for training for an ultra like this is just trying to be on your feet as much as you can all day because i mean you got 30 hours doing that you don't want to be sitting so if i can just be out walking you know i'll call my mom or whoever or i'll be listening to this track and like working on stuff as I'm out moving.

25:35When I when I work out or when I run and when I write, I will pick a song and it's usually a song that'll like I can usually make it like a song work for like a week or something. And I just listen to that same song over and over and over again until it sort of blurs into something where I don't even know where it begins and ends. Right. And I just get into a groove that lets me sort of lose track of time. Nice. Yeah. Yeah. Can you a little weird too oh totally totally most creatives are well you you sort of find out what works for you and then you're just like i don't care as long as it keeps doing the thing um so yeah so for me like that's like a currency like i like like i have to i'm always looking for those songs because i feel like those songs are unlocking stuff yeah so when i find one then i'm like okay like this is this is a good one right and then but then there's also there's something transactional about it because like I'm using it up.

26:34Yeah. You know, like I'm right. It's like I'm sucking all the emotional valence and meaning out of it. And then at some point, I'm like, this doesn't do anything. You gotta move on. Yeah. That's that's nuts, though. So so do you find like getting like like I find like if I go for my walks or my runs, when I'm coming back, I'm like scribbling a bunch of shit down. Like Nietzsche said something like only ideas had while walking have any worth and there's something about i think getting moving and being outside that gets the brain moving yeah that if you were sitting there trying to do what you're trying to do yeah you wouldn't have the same amount of success yeah for sure i mean too for me like as from a creative standpoint i could go if you told me to go in that room right now with a guitar and write something i could yeah might not be very good yes you know so for me I don't push myself.

27:31I'm like, you know, with that, I'm like, if it comes to me, it comes to me, and it's something I'm going to use. I know that. I have to be inspired with it. And, you know, there's plenty of writers that can just go and write something to be amazing. I can't tell myself, you've got to go write this and expect it to work. It could, but I prefer the stuff that, you know, inspires me. But I find when I'm walking, when I'm out and I'm not just sitting there forcing myself to do something, it's so mindless for me. I kind of just let my brain. So it is, you know, it is like a meditation, I guess, for me because I can't just sit there and really try to meditate.

28:14I've been working on that. But that's. The sitting sounds like it'd be the hard part for you. Yeah. So for me, being outside walking and just trying to, you know, I just let my mind run then and then just kind of I soak it all in. And that seems to be what works for me. There's this quote. I forget who said it, but it's something like inspiration is for amateurs. Yeah. So there is something about like this is the time that I do the thing every day. Right. Like if you're like if you only work out when you feel like it, most people are not going to work out. Then I'm not going to work out. Yeah.

28:46So there's something about like, for me, it's like, this is the time that I do it every day. I show up. Sometimes it's good. Sometimes it's not. And sometimes I do great stuff. And then sometimes I'm just, I'm just putting in the time. But then I find it's like in the afternoon or on the walk or the workout later that whatever problem I was having before my mind fixes. Right. Or, okay, actually, wait, I got to flip that around. So it's actually, it's more complicated than inspiration is for amateurs. There's something about showing up, being a professional, doing it at a set time, and then setting space and a kind of a meditative practice or an openness that allows for serendipity and just stuff to happen.

29:30So you got to let your mind just sort of chew on it in the background for a while. Yeah, agreed. So for you, though, it sounds like it would take more discipline for you to rest and recover than to push yourself. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. And I know that, you know, next month that I do – I'm preparing myself for that like mentally. But the doctor, she was like, look, you can walk out of here. You're going to be able to get it and walk out of here. And she's – I was like, so I can walk. She's like, I encourage you to walk. And I was like, how much are we talking? You know, and so she's like, I mean, don't be like crazy.

30:13But she was like, yeah, you need to walk. And she was like within, you know, hopefully like a week you can kind of start doing, you know, legs, maybe even sooner than that. And then like slowly like work your way, work your way up. And she was like with, you know, everybody's kind of different. You don't know exactly what's going to happen. But she's like, you can, with your health and like you being in shape, she was like four weeks, probably max. But again, everybody's different. But I imagine like your average, not even average, a coach would be like, you can't work out every day. There needs to be rest and recovery days.

30:46But for you, I imagine it's better for you mentally. Yeah. You would take the punishment physically because mentally it's more important that you are consistent. Yeah. I mean, I go to the gym seven days a week. I don't, you know, I'm not recommending that for everybody, but I know a lot of people that do. And, you know, I think there's once you I'm not going there like on the weekends or like a little the running is more intense on the weekends for me. You know, I take I do take days off from running a ton and I'll I'll I'll walk. But yeah, as far as like working out, you know, I'll go to the gym like there's this bicep workout that I do.

31:31every day because your body kind of your arms like your muscles start to adapt there and there's like a lot of research into that i'm not gonna bore everybody i don't recommend that for everybody you got everybody's body's different but there's certain things like that that i've like you know worked on as far as like my shoulders like the first ultra i ran i was so sore on my shoulders so i was like i'm holding your yeah so i was like all right we got to go back we got to start going to the gym and training shoulders a lot and i started doing that and strengthened my shoulders this last race I ran no shoulder pain just things like that that I'm I like to like dial in on that stuff and see what works do you ever think about what that energy directed towards your music and your career would do or are they balanced do you know what I mean like that's obviously an incredible intensity that you're directing towards a thing that is not your main thing you ever think about that yeah I think this has been really good for me within the last couple years to like really start dialing in the fitness yeah because you know i i need to have something other than music you know uh because i feel like if you get too engrossed in one thing you know you i think there's a lot of balance and so while i am really engrossed in like the fitness stuff i also know that you know when i'm on tour it's like oh it's 5 p.m i've got to go i've got vip and then you know I get a little break and then I go and I play the show and I deliver and you know I've got that kind of going in there but I think you should have balance because for me working out doing all this is I mean I would say it's a hobby it's that's obviously a lifestyle for me now but I enjoy doing that and it's something other than the music and if I feel like you know also I can't put everything I have into the fitness element because I also it's good for me to focus on the music as well.

33:21So I think it's good for me to have balance because if I just focused on music 24-7, I think I get really burnt out. I get really tired of that.

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36:33Do you, I, a friend of mine, actually, so he's like a mutual friend of, of a friend. And we were talking, we were describing this person. It's basically that he, he was a partier who did music on the side, you know, and I'm sure, you know, people like that. How, how much for you was, was all of this kind of a professionalization and getting really serious about what you do? yeah i mean so i started kind of playing out my freshman year of college and you weren't necessarily getting well you weren't making any money yeah uh but you got paid a lot of times in alcohol yeah you got a free you know beer tab whatever and so that's what i was like all right i'm gonna make my money's worth off of that and so i started drinking you know sure and so i wasn't I was working hard, obviously, but it wasn't like I was.

37:32I got sober. I've been sober for six years now. And so once I, that was kind of like the changing moment for me. It was like, all right. I was afraid, I think, to stop drinking because I'm like, I don't know what it's like to kind of go play a show without that courage. So it made me focus on other things. And that's when I really started to dial in. And I can say that if I didn't get sober, I don't think I would have been in the, I wouldn't have worked as hard by any means. And I wouldn't have gotten dialed in. I wouldn't have met the people that I met. And I don't think they would have wanted to have, you know, worked with me either.

38:08That kind of made me concentrate and focus on that. And it was like, all right, well, I'm not drinking, so I kind of need to, you know, what else can I look at? What else can I do? And so I kind of became, you know, I don't want to say obsessed, but I was like, really, I was like, all right, you got to work hard at this. Because that was like very challenging to not do that, especially in the environment that I was in. So once I put that down and really started to focus on, hey, what do you actually want to do? You know, don't half-ass this anymore. Like, you kind of got to get dedicated. And that's when I met my producer, Sadler Baden.

38:45And he kind of sat me down and was like, you've either got to go all in with the music or keep working your job on the side, whatever. He was like, but you're not going to be able to get to that level you want to get to if you don't just go all in. Right. And so that's what I eventually had to do. And so once I did that, that's when I started to see everything changing. There's a story that Roseanne Cash tells in her memoir where she's – I think she's done maybe one or two albums. Obviously, she comes from sort of music royalty. Right. So she sort of gets a break in the business. But she has this dream.

39:22And in the dream, she's at this party. And she sees the singer Linda Ronstadt talking to this man. Do you know this story? No, I don't. And so she walks up to him. They all have name tags. And the man's name tag just says art, right, which is symbolic of her – her craft. And so she goes and she tries to like get in on this conversation as Linda Ronstadt's her hero. And she says, hi, you know, I'm Roseanne. And Art turns to her and he just says, we don't respect dilettantes. And then they turn away from her. And for her, this was this sort of turning point moment that she realized like she was doing music, but she wasn't really doing music.

40:02She wasn't all in on it. And so like there's this turning point in her career where she goes back and she's you know she starts she gets coaches and she starts working with better collaborators she stops you know she this is the moment where she's like oh yeah i i was only kind of doing this thing and now i'm really gonna do this thing and that's how she becomes ultimately what she ends up becoming yeah that's awesome i've not heard that story that's great but but i think that's there's kind of a there's um steven pressfield tells a version of that story also in the War of Art. He's saying that that's the resistance, right?

40:38The resistance is, well, if I don't really try, if I am half doing it or I have this addiction or this compulsion or this other thing, then I can always use that as an excuse for why it's not happening for me. And then when it doesn't happen, I don't have to feel as bad because it's not a rejection of me. it's only a partial rejection of me. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's much easier to just try a little bit and then be like, eh, okay. I didn't put, I didn't go all in on it. I could have if I wanted to. Yeah. Yeah. That whole thing versus, you know, working really hard and then failing. But to me, you know, I mean, obviously you don't really think like that, but I'm like, okay, at least I went out there and I gave it everything I had versus just sitting on the couch today.

41:31Yeah. Well, and then probably being intoxicated is a way of just getting rid of all those feelings altogether. So you're just kind of, you're just living, you're in a weird way. You're just living kind of in this moment. Oh yeah. As opposed to having to think about what could have been, what you fucked up, what you're dealing with, what you're struggling with. You're just, you're just going along to get along. Right. What was the quote? Someone, I can't remember, but you know, most of our issues stem for not being able to sit in a room alone with our thoughts kind of thing. And that is such, you know, I had a moment.

42:05So when I ran, you know, the 30 miles a couple weeks back, one loop I put my headphones in, just one loop. And then when I came back around, I just threw my stuff down. And so it was just silence. Because when you start out, you're all in a pack. And then it just breaks off and everybody's running their own race. but it was like, it was just nature out there. I mean, I was like running through this park and up these trails and through the woods and I didn't have anything else. And at first I was like, this is going to drive me crazy. But then I got to thinking about it. I was like, I started kind of like having all these ideas going through my head.

42:40I started kind of like talking to myself, you know, and that's when I kind of like realized I was like, okay, you know, this can be, and I think that's a big, you know, issue as well is like sometimes you have to just kind of like let go. and that was a good focus for me. Yeah, that quote is from Pascal. He said, all of humanity's problems stem from our inability to sit quietly in a room alone. And you're going like, yeah, I got these headphones and I got to take them off. But he said that quote in the 16 fucking hundreds. Right, it's a lot. Like now he would be like, hey. Well, it's also just like, oh yeah, that's been our problem for as long as we've been people.

43:16Regardless of the internet. Yeah. Yeah, but it is, it's like, and I've realized that a lot. Two, with, you know, like, you'll go stay, you know, you'll go see these houses, and I have friends, I'll go to their house. They have, like, a TV in every room. They have, like, a TV in the bathroom. Yeah. And I'm like, I don't have a TV in my house. Yeah. You know, kind of thing. I'm not saying I'm better than anybody. I have my own vices, but I'm just like, man, we really, we have to constantly. I'm one of those people that can't have something in the background, or I'm going to, like, fixate on it. But, you know, again, I have my own little things, but.

43:52No, I was just, I did a talk the other day and I went to a bunch of like CEOs and I was like, how many of you have CNBC or Fox or CNN on a TV in your office with the sound off? Yeah. Which is kind of, it's kind of like an executive status symbol. I'm monitoring the world. And it's like, that is designed actually to be captivating with the sound off. Like it's designed just to catch your, they're supposed to be arresting emotionally aggravating images. about real time developing information. Yeah. And your job as a leader, just as it's a job of a creative, is actually to be thinking about what's going on in here and to be thinking big picture.

44:34Right. And so it's the opposite of what you should be cultivating, the kind of stillness that you need to make good decisions. Yeah. And to access the sort of muscle, to access the creativity or the insight needed to do what you do. and and you're so but you're like choosing to operate on like 70 capacity because you have this low grade distraction happening in the oh for sure and that's like i hate tvs in the gym yes because i will catch i don't i'm not interested in what's on there but i'll be like working out and then it's like there's something random on there that i just i start looking at i'm like i quit you know that's why i hate like tvs in there and stuff like that because it is it's just a distractions like i don't even want to look at that it's kind of like with with the scrolling you know it's just automatic going now and it's like 30 minutes goes by and i'm like i didn't need to see 45 videos of dogs yes you know like i just wasted 30 minutes where i could have been you know well you have it like at the gas station now you're like filling up your car oh my gosh and it's right there on the pump yeah i like just like leaning up against the car just like thinking and doing nothing even for eight minutes or whatever right and you're just like no now Now it's got this like garbage clips and ads and you just can't, you can't escape it.

45:52You cannot escape anything. Yeah. I think about it at the airport. You know, CNN has a deal with most airports to pay them to run CNN like in the airport. There's this, and there's a special version of CNN. It's like airport CNN. So they only show like certain things. Like if it's going to be really traumatic, they don't show it. But the idea is that - Yeah, so the traumatic plane crash is we're not going to see while we're in the airport. But the point is, like, they know that even with the sound off, it will suck your attention to. Yeah. That's what they, that's what the producer, the producer is watching it there backstage with a lot of times without the sound off.

46:27And he's, you know, he or she is sort of puppeteering the let's get people going thing. It's just not good for your mind. I know. It's not at all. Yeah. The people I know that are the dumbest and the angriest are the people who consume the most television news. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and those are the same ones that are the trolls on the internet, too, because it's like you've got all this time to just sit there and put everybody else down. So what was Getting Sober like for you? You know, for me, it was like I had played a show in New York. It was my first time in New York. It was like one of those little shows that nobody got paid.

47:08You kind of came up there, and I was like, all right, I have to go to New York. And little did I know the show made zero difference. in my career, but that whole experience changed my life. And I got up there, and again, alcohol. As soon as my feet hit the ground, got out of the car, I just started drinking. And I drank so much that day. I drank more than I, you know, have ever drank before. And I woke up the next day, no idea what happened. And that's such a scary feeling, too, especially as a female, to, you know, just let your guard down with that. especially where I was staying. I was not a safe part of town.

47:46We had no money, me and my band, so we were like, you know. And it was just like a hangover for me that was heavier than anything I'd ever experienced before, and that lasted for days. I remember the next day, I was like, hey, can somebody grab me a drink when we're at Penn Station? And they came back with a beer, and I meant a water. And they just assumed. They just assumed. And so I had a beer. I took one sip of it, and I put it down. I was like, ugh. It just, it tasted different to me. And, you know, my motto was just always like the best way to kill a hangover is start drinking again. You know, kind of like counterbalance it, which is super dumb.

48:23But that was it. That was the last drink I ever had. And I remember I got home and it just seemed like everything in my life was just like kind of falling apart a little bit. And I was just like, what am I doing kind of thing? And I'm like, I have an issue. And everybody's like, oh, you're too young. whatever you just need to chill out but i'm like no man like i i seriously i am drinking more than i should be able to drink and it's like taking over my life and i'm doing stuff i don't want to do and and that's a problem too that we kind of have i think it's getting better where people are starting to realize you don't just have to be some 40 year old man that lost his job and just wakes up and pours jack in his cereal in the morning yeah there's sobriety and like alcoholism I'm like, it looks different for everybody.

49:13And I was just like, all right, let's try not to drink. Let's just like work on this. And I was like, all right, I'm not going to drink for a month. And then, you know, like that slowly started to change. And so, you know, I had to change up my habits for sure. It was like, you're going to be that person that loves sparkling water. We're going to do it. And now, you know, I do. But it was just like things like that. Like, all right, you got to have something. If you have to have something in your hand, like make it water. Yeah. And certain little things like that. And at first it was hard, but, you know, I think sometimes it's harder now because like the first month you're like, ugh, you can still taste it.

49:50You know why you're not drinking. And then, you know, six months, you know, I could still remember. Even a year I could remember why I got sober. But as time goes on, you start to think, well, have I changed? Am I a little different now? Could I handle it? Can I just go have a beer or glass of wine or whatever? And then I'll have a dream that I drank something and it's always awful. It never tastes good. And as soon as I drink it, I'm devastated. And so I wake up and it's like, it takes me a minute to realize I didn't do it. But that feeling always helps me to remember, okay. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. I tell the story in Discipline is Destiny about the physicist Richard Feynman.

50:32And he's just sort of going to work one day. And he feels, it's like 10 a.m. He just feels this, I should go get a drink. And he was like, that's not a good feeling. Because it's the feeling of realizing that you're not the one in control. That you have these desires or urges. That they have you as opposed to you have them. And we all kind of have stuff like that. Things that we're slaves to, the Stokes would say. And those are the things we should probably work on. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I always think, I think about it's like, do I have a phone or does the phone have me? Phone have me. Yeah. I'm currently, I'm off social media.

51:09I haven't been on there, you know, in like a week, whatever. I just took it all off my phone. And I did that a few months back. You know, I was dealing with a bunch of stuff and like the media and everything. And I was just so like addicted to seeing what everyone was saying. And it was bringing me down. And for like three days, it was just like debilitating. I didn't go to the gym which I mean was so weird for me I just laid around I didn't eat I was like and then finally I was like why do you care what this random person is making up about you like they read the headline of something and think it's true and it's not it's like you know it's not true your friends know it's not true your family knows like does this person this person's not even coming to your show like they don't even know who you are they don't even have a profile picture like and so I just I got off the internet and like it's so crazy because I'd go pick up my phone and I'd scroll up and I was like, oh, yeah, you don't have it anymore.

52:04And then I'd get up and go do something. And so I was off for like almost two months, something like that. It was so great. And then I ended up, the record came out, so I got back on there. And I had people running my social media, which is good. But then I was like, oh, I don't need to let them do it. I need to do it. And then I get back on there and it's just so easy to fall back into that same trap. I think I'm the person that can get on there every now and again, but not really, not for my own phone. I need to have my manager's phone and let me look at something. But I'm back off of there, and I've read more in this past week than I have because I'm always like, oh, I don't have time, which is so dumb.

52:43Yeah. Because it's like, no, you totally have time, but it's like I'll pick something up, start watching on my phone. And so now I'm like, okay, well, read that book, have that book with you. Right. And so that's what I've been doing. yeah i have it i have my stuff on my wife's phone i have a social media team and then i have if i want to check it's like on my wife's phone so i'd be like hey can i see that and then she's like i'm tired of using my phone because i would just use it all the time and then so i was like okay i'll get a second phone and it's like no i just can't i can't i'm gonna have to get rid of the second phone because i just check even though i wouldn't take it with me but i would just grab it and you realize i think sort of if you have any kind of addictive tendency or compulsion or you're someone who's just kind of trying to numb something yeah you will find an outlet for that well it's such an ocd for me because people like well don't read the comments and i'm like i you know i've always had certain things that's like i would do and and the the thing with having ocd is it's like you're like okay i'm not gonna do that and then you're like yeah i gotta do that and you do it and you're like i feel better for a second and then it just repeats again so that's what i was doing i was like well if i know what they're saying i'm gonna feel better and then i see something that I wouldn't have known this person said that and it wouldn't have been in my head.

53:56Yeah. But now I know that. And I'm like, yeah, that's why OCD isn't, you can't just like scratch, scratch it. You know, you got to like, let it go. And so that's what I've been doing for like the last week. And I can already feel myself like kind of winding back down. That's the thing about social media is, is I don't know if I've ever felt better after. No, I've never felt better. I'm never like, I'm so glad I did that. That was a good use of my time. That filled me up. You know, that was positive. It's always like I'm angrier now or I'm more envious now or I'm numbed out now. Yeah. It's not, it's probably not activating anything good.

54:36Well, my favorite part that I'm always like, I'm like, well, I'll go look at these motivational pages. Sure, I have a couple. I'm like yes I will look at that and it'll be great but then I'm like then I gotta watch this and I gotta watch this and it just you know keeps going and I think some people really can and I have friends that can like look at it for a little bit and then put their phone down not touch it again I am not like that and then I try to be like well what if somebody really cool like sends me a dm and I'm like you have a team that can look at that for you and that's their job and they can handle that and i do think you know it is good every now and again like once i run my race and i'm done with my race you know i've already decided that i will post after my race you know that i've accomplished that because you know i i was fearful to like put that out there but then i was like i know this is gonna be good to put it out there because every show i have somebody asking me if i'm still running that race and so i'm like ah you know that's out there so for me that's good but i was like i'll post i want to update them on the race the people that have been invested in that but that's it for the year for me i've kind of decided like your team is posting stuff my team will post stuff and they have to because you know with the record and and then i've got new music coming out and just stuff like that and shows and you know for me but i'm like morgan you know you've got it and then i was like no it's fine like it's to connect with people and I can get on there every now and again and I could go post from my manager's phone or send them what I want them to post, but I don't need to read that.

56:11And, you know, I'll get people, it's like, you never respond to the comments. I'm like, man, I can't read those. Yeah. Because while there's, there could be a million nice things, those three people that want to attack me, that have no idea who I am, I'm going to focus on those. And I was like, those people don't matter in my life. You know, they're, they're dealing with their own stuff and it's generally, I mean, it has honestly nothing to do with me. They're just, they're dealing with something. And so they're on the internet putting other people down. Yeah. Johnny Cash's manager told him one time, you have to have like a vault that no one can get in.

56:41And that's what the Stoics would call this the sort of the inner citadel. You have to have this thing that protects the main thing that you do, your sort of sense of self, your sort of creative gift, what you're trying to say. Yeah. And the problem with social media is it's, it's not only threatens that, it's the opposite of that. It's, it's an infinite amount of people. Like, and you're better off just focusing on what you do. Because I find that sort of self-consciousness is the enemy of most creativity. Oh, yeah. So what are they going to think about this, right? Am I coming off the way that I want to come off?

57:22Yeah. That's taking you out of what you're supposed to be doing, which is like, what do I have to say here? Do I think this is good? Is this exciting? Is this interesting to me? Right. and did I say what I wanted to say. Yeah. And obviously feedback is important because you're not just making it for you, but you can't open yourself up to unlimited feedback from the world. No. And that's, you know, I was like a week ago, my siblings came to a show and they're all younger. And the five-year-old, like I just watched her and she just, she does what she wants and she just says things and she's just like happy and I'm like, man, don't lose it.

58:03Yeah, sure. Because I'm like, I was like that at one point too. And she just is so excited to just like go do things and they're not worried about what I'm thinking or what anybody else is thinking. And it's just sometimes like really good for me to be around that and witness that again. Because we get so caught up and, you know, I've got a song on the new record called 27 Club, and I wrote it, and I put it on there, and I recorded it, and everything was mixed and mastered and was being pressed. And I got it in my head one day that that was too vulnerable. I needed it gone. And I freaked out about it.

58:43I called my manager. I'm like, this has to go. And they're like, it's already in. I was like, I don't care. I don't care. I want it gone. I don't care what it costs me, what I lose. I want it gone. Like, I can't, you know, and it turned out to be one of everyone's favorite songs on the whole record. And it was the most vulnerable thing on there. But I was like freaking out about it. I was like, I don't want it out there. I'm worried what everyone's going to think. Because for me, that song was so metaphorical and showing where I'm at in my life. And I'm like, I don't want that attention that this song's going to bring.

59:18I don't want to deal with that. And it ended up being like, well, it's too late. because you and then it turned out to be the best the best thing for me but yeah isn't the point of music to be vulnerable it is and some but even you know like i was like this was too much you know this was too and then i was like did you do that with your first record it's like no you didn't because that's the thing about a debut record is you put it out and if it flops well no one knows because it's your debut record and you didn't have all those people but you know with the second one there's more eyes on it. Yeah.

59:52If your first one did really good. Yeah, at the beginning, you're just like, I hope someone will see this. Right. Yeah. And I, you know, moving forward, I had to kind of, I had to take a minute. So I'm putting out an acoustic record and I sat down and I've written all these songs by myself and it's just me and a guitar and, you know, we've put some strings on it and like piano, but it's just, it's acoustic. It's just like really chill and it's focused on the songwriting again for me. And, you know, I kind of just hit this place, too. I've toured relentlessly all year, and it's been great. But, you know, I feel like it was just the same.

1:00:30I was doing a lot of the same things. And so I had to kind of take a step back and be like, why did you start doing this? Where's that hunger? Because, you know, now I'm doing what? I'm doing great. You know, I'm making money, and I'm finally, I'm able to, you know, I bought a house and a nice car, and I've got all this stuff. but I'm like what are you what are you doing yeah are you happy yeah and you know it's like I look I'm like man you have all these things and the shows are great and I do love playing the shows that's that's not even an issue but it's like are you hungry anymore are you hungry for it because I'm like I look back at when I lived in a one-bedroom cabin paying five hundred dollars a month for all my bills and barely able to do that and driving a shitty car with no ac and like going and playing these shows and making no money but i was hungry and i was excited yeah i was like so you gotta like get back to that and not get so caught up in what it and i remember i was like i didn't care what anybody thought yeah i would go out there and open for these people and i walk why I decided to go do this acoustic record because when I started thinking like that again I went and wrote 25 songs and all by myself and they're lyrically some of the best songs I've ever written in my life and you know I took them to the label I sent them like three of these songs and they're like this is amazing like the you know you got the ceo sony calling you like this is the best stuff i've ever heard like this is raw emotional he's like people were crying in the meeting and so i really i was like okay you gotta like get back to that stop worrying what everybody else was thinking this was also during the same period of time that i was off the internet yeah sure and i was like more responsive to like emails because it was like emails was all i had on my phone and normally i hate checking emails so My manager's like, you're really on top of things these days.

1:02:32Because I wasn't distracting and worrying about what everybody else was saying. Because those same people that want to talk shit about me on the internet and make me feel bad about myself, if they see me on the street, they want to talk to me. Yeah. And I'm like, okay, so what does it matter? Yeah. You know, they're not, they, it doesn't. And at the end of the day, you really just have to start focusing. And that's such an issue for me is just focusing on the present moment as well. But when I started to let all that go, I started to feel better. And then, of course, I fell back into reading stuff on the internet.

1:03:10And now I'm back off of that. And I'm doing a lot better. Well, that's, I think, what he meant by having the vault. Is now you have money. You have space. People are interested in what you're doing. that that's like that's what success is but you still have to figure out how to preserve the original space or like childlike state that the stuff comes from like for me with the daily stoic you know it started with a couple thousand people and now i send out this email every day to 700 000 people and so if i think about that too much it changes what i'm willing to say what i won't say you know if i read whether people liked today's email or not like i every once in a while i'll get emails from people i know like that'll that'll forward the email back to me and be like hey i like this one and that means something to me yeah but like i mean just think if if one percent of the people didn't like today's 99 of people liked it but one percent didn't that's 70 000 people 7 ,000 people, right?

1:04:141 % of 7 ,000. Don't ask me. I play music. I don't do math. But anyway, that's a lot. That's more than you could possibly conceive of, right? And so, and if you got even 1 % of, if you heard from 1 % of 1 % of people who didn't like you, the 1 % people who didn't like you, it would crush you emotionally. You can't possibly let that in. And so you have to create this space. And that's also true. It's like, you got to keep space from family and friends and the annoying neighbor and that you're not you have to create this space that allows you to do what you do and it's right it's weirdly harder to do the more successful you are because there's more stuff trying to get it yeah i mean that that's yeah and and so you know because too it was like i mean i i went to the the airport the other day I landed in LA and there, you know, with, with all this crazy stuff going on in my life.

1:05:12Oh, was there paparazzi and stuff? Paparazzi. And I was by myself and I've never dealt with anything like that. Sure. And I was like confused cause I'm like waiting. Of course, everybody's wanting to laugh and talk about what I had on. I had on sweatpants and a t-shirt and a hat because yeah, guys, I got up at 3am that morning to get on that flight. I had had like an eight-hour day already. Yeah. And I get off the plane, and I'm getting my bags, and I look out. I was walking, and then there's this guy in my face asking me all this stuff. And at first, I was like quiet. But then I looked at him at one point.

1:05:50I was like, man, you're giving me a panic attack. Can you like stop? There's nothing I can do about it, and I'm by myself. Yeah. And later, all that was out, and I was like, I got on there to read the comments, which I should not have done. And they were awful. I mean, from everything from my looks to how disgusting my tattoos are to how this I'm pathetic. Why would anybody who cares about her? She's a piece of shit. Like all this stuff. And I'm like, you know, and so I had to like take a step back and be like. But then I went and read some other articles of other people and I read the comments and they were all awful, too.

1:06:24So I was like, OK, well, we're all getting this shit. We also got to think about who is leaving comments on the bottom of articles about musicians. You realize it's selecting for the most garbage, have nothing going on people in the world. Then I started reading people were like, well, she called the paparazzi on herself. I'm like, first of all, I'm some hillbilly from Virginia. How do you do that? I have no idea how that is. I want to be left alone. I'm like, if I called the paparazzi on myself, I'm not going to have on$8 sweatpants from Walmart that have a hole in them that I did not realize until I got to the airport because I got up at 3 a.m.

1:07:01It was just like things like that. But I was like, why do you care what someone who – they don't understand this situation, like what goes on and what you deal with, and they don't – quit giving them that time of day because they're living in your head. And honestly, it was kind of good for me because then I was like, put your phone down. That was the big mistake of waking up this morning and going and picking up your stupid phone. I'm like, get up, make your coffee and read. Like stop like putting that stuff in your head. And people don't know. They don't know what the truth is, but you know what the truth is.

1:07:33And at the end of the day, in four days, they're going to be on to the next thing. They don't care about this. And it's easier said than done. There's something paradoxical about it, though. I was just thinking about this. I was going to the airport the other day and I was like thinking about what I was going to wear. and I had to choose to wear a sweatshirt because if I wear T-shirts, people see my tattoos and then they recognize me. Yeah. And I was like, well, this sucks. Like I'm having to choose what I wear so I don't get bothered and I'm wearing a hat, I'm wearing a mask so I can just be in my space and not get talked to people, talked to by people, which is sort of the preferred space for me.

1:08:13It's wonderful to talk to people. No, totally. I get it. But if I can avoid it, obviously I would. You know what I mean? Right. Yeah, for sure. You know what I mean? It's a champagne problem, but it's still like weird. Right. And that's the thing is because that's how it was. It was like people think that I called this or like someone else called this on me. I'm like, I didn't want to do that. I mean, I was like, and then everybody's like, look how mad she looks. And I'm like, I didn't know they were even looking at me, guys. I'm sorry. That's my face. I was waiting. I was irritated that my bags were taking so long.

1:08:49And I'm like, if you would have looked at anybody else standing around there, like, I was tired. And I was like, Lauren, who cares? Who cares? And that's such a hard thing. And also, you should just don't get a throat tattoo. Because if I was trying, I would have to turtleneck and gloves over here. Because what happens is people vaguely understand. They're like, I think that's that person. But then if you have distinguishing marks, they're like, it's definitely that person. Yeah. And it's, you know, and people are like, who cares about this? Who even is this? And I'm like, okay, I don't care if you know me or not.

1:09:20I would rather you not know me if you're going to talk like that anyways. But it's like, you know, I'm working on a docuseries, and a lot of people are like, who would even watch this? And so then that gets in my head, but I'm like, okay, well, don't watch it then. Like, I mean, everybody kind of has to start somewhere, and I'm like, I have a fan base that will be interested in this, and if you're not interested in that, that's fine. I'm probably not interested in what you're interested in, you know. So it's just a lot, all this, and I look back at most of the issues that I have had with, you know, becoming more successful is the internet.

1:09:54It's not the amazing fans that come to my shows and they spend their hard-earned money to buy my stuff and listen to this and allow me to do this. It's not those people because those people are great, and I'm always going to want to listen to them. Those are the people that I do want to know their opinions on things because I'm like, they've been with me the longest and they're, you know, there for me and they get me and we're connected. I really do feel that connection with them. I was like, who cares about the people who literally don't even follow you? They're just coming to your page to ridicule you.

1:10:25When I was thinking about that as I was going to the airport, I was like, but I chose this. Exactly. And it's like, it's not just I chose it. I could shut it down in two seconds. I just stop posting shit and go back to writing my books and authors never get recognized, right? And so it's like, it's for me, like you said, yeah, when my books were just working and it was just the books, you know, it'd be like once a month someone would be like, are you Ryan Holler? Because who makes it all the way to the fucking back of the book and reads the thing? It was with social media, which is a deliberate choice that suddenly millions and millions of people are seeing you on this.

1:11:00And so it's like, it's this thing where I'm, I'm not resenting it, but I'm like, it's making me uncomfortable. I'm not liking it, but I also fucking chose it. And so that, that's, that's this weird thing that we do to ourselves. That's what you deal with. And that's what people you'll read. They're like, well, you chose this. And I'm like, yeah, you're, you're not wrong. I did. Yeah. But I don't think, cause you know, like at the beginning of my career, I was like, man, that had to be so cool to like have somebody like taking photos. especially when you're a little kid and you're playing that you're a rock star or whatever and you're like oh no no no don't take and then i'm like yeah well that's not actually how that works when you because you know and it's just like stuff like that and i'm not then too it makes me have a lot more respect and understanding because now when you see like these tabloids and this stuff that i used to be like oh yeah like look at with it and then now i'm like yeah you know that's probably not even real right that's probably not even real and so now i don't click on that stuff anymore about other people because i'm like yeah i'm not giving you that click yeah that you need because half of this probably isn't even true and you know who cares like this is a real person i don't care if they are you know uber famous and like they they do something i'm like somebody down the street or someone in that's in that grocery store beside of you has done something really stupid, probably, but it's not on the internet and not, you know, millions of people aren't looking at that.

1:12:27And we are, at the end of the day, all connected.

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1:15:01so it's this it's this kind of i wouldn't call it an original sin but it's it's there is this this thing in it and then you get it and then you're like either i think you get it and then you're like oh that didn't actually do for me what i thought it would do for me right and now it's this it's not an inconvenience but now it's just this thing like it's like yeah you you did this thing in in hawaii the sailors introduced these rats right the ship rats would come off the ship so they have these rats so then the people in hawaii were like well we got to get something that eats the rats so they introduced these ferrets or these mongoose and then it turns out the rats are nocturnal and the ferrets live during the daytime they don't even but the point is but now they have a ferret problem also right and um it's kind of like that you think that hey if i get to this level i do this thing it's going to fix this problem right and then it doesn't and now you just have this other fucking thing it's in it too you know it's like you said it's a champagne problem and it's like you don't like it when things aren't going good or you know they're going bad but when you know the attention is making things great then you're like oh this is great you know and it's like we don't get to choose how things go and so it is but again like yeah it it you you the people that and that's the thing you got to focus on the people that support you and the reason that you're doing this because that that all goes back to to like you know me being afraid to put 27 club out i'm like the people that connected with that song because they're going through it i'm like okay even if you know only one person connected with that song and it helped one person hell yeah you you know and the same with the docuseries i'm like if one person watches that and is like intrigued by that and enjoys it and it helped them in some way right or you know in in or goes and runs a race or goes and does something proactive like with the the double mastectomy or like figures more out about their health and i'm like hell yeah i help one person and you know well 27 club is a great song and it's probably partly i mean the 27 club is probably rooted kind of in what we're talking about in the sense of like why musicians tend to die at that age or before that age is you think getting that success or fame or money or whatever it is, it's going to fix you.

1:17:20Yeah. And it doesn't, it doesn't fix you because you're never going to fix inside stuff with outside stuff. No. And, and that's, you know, that's such an issue for me too, is I'll look and I have to remember that too, even with the, the ultra running or whatever, I'm like, the gym's not going to fix you. You still have to. You have to do the work. You have to do the work. That's helping you for sure. And I, you know, to be healthy and to do these things but it's still yeah it's it's all that the the mental work and the inside work the soul work is the hardest and it's the one i typically am like yeah i mean it's it's easy it seems crazy to say and maybe even a little you get to but it's like it's easier to go get famous or to make a lot of money or to sell a lot of records or sell a lot of it's actually easier to do that shit than which the odds are infinitesimal of being able to accomplish right like how many people are trying to do those things and don't yeah it's actually easier for some people for people like us to do that yeah then to sit quietly in a room alone and do the other work oh yeah way harder yeah and you know yeah for sure and yeah it's it's it is definitely way harder to do that it feels like well it's way harder also because how do you know if it's working and nobody's clapping for you as you're doing it and that's and that's the thing that it's like you have to remind yourself because it's it's so it's crazy too because it's like i get off the stage and you have to like you have to understand right before covid i mean i finished recording Reckless a week before the lockdown.

1:19:08And I was just like, okay, what, you know, what, and of course at that time I'm like, I get a week off, you know, like whatever. But before that, I had not played any headline shows. I was not selling anything out. I was lucky to make$200 a show, maybe$500, you know, that I split with a band. And then coming out of that and the first show I played, coming back, the release show, two sold out shows. Right. And so it was very, like, different for me. I went into COVID. Nobody really knew who I was. And I don't want to say that in a bad way. I had a good following. Sure. But it wasn't like it is now.

1:19:45And fortunately for me, I still have those fans, and they were great. And, you know, they helped support me through COVID with the Facebook Lives and all that. But, you know, it wasn't like it is now. Right. And so coming out of that, and then I'm, like, selling out shows. and I do my first headline run and it's sold out like and upgraded and just like crazy. And then it's like, so you go and you, you, you know, you work all day and you go and you play for an hour and a half, two hours, and then you go get on the bus. It's just silent. Yeah. And it's like, it's weird. And when I came off of that tour and I went home, it was like, I was excited to go home, But at the same time, it's weird to not have people, you know, a couple thousand people telling you how much they love you every night.

1:20:30And it's like this weird feeling. It's like you want that. So it's like figuring out, you know, in therapy, I'm like, I'm trying to figure out how to balance that home life, road life. Because it's not, I'm like, I mean, I think everyone has narcissistic tendencies. I mean, you take a selfie and post it on the internet. You're not posting an ugly selfie. you're posting it because you think you look good i mean yeah come on you're taking five and you're picking the one you look best in exactly like we you know i do that i'm not gonna you know so it's like you have these tendencies but it's yeah going going kind of you know going back to that it's just like you you gotta i think you have to find that balance no matter what you're doing is that what the homesick road sick yeah for sure and you know it's just like it's like when you're home Man, I talk to all artists deal with this.

1:21:19It's just like, because I love touring. I do. And connecting with these people and it's playing and seeing people sing these songs that you've written when you're dealing with such a difficult time, singing that back to you, crying and having that moment. You can't replicate that. I mean, there's just nothing else like that. And it makes some small town kid like me growing up in the middle of nowhere sit back and be like, wow. And so you want that and you love that. You crave that. And then it's like, but you also, you miss home when you're out there. And you really, you miss home. And it's like, it's hard.

1:21:56It's a lot, especially my band. Like they've got kids, they've got wives. And I see how difficult that is for them to be gone. And then it's like you go home and I'm home. and then I start getting like, okay, I haven't done anything in a minute. I need to get back out there. And it's like this tugging. And that's why like next year touring, I've kind of like found like for the headline tour, let's do like three weeks on and like two weeks off and then like another three weeks on, like something like that versus, I mean, we were gone for like two months, just straight, no breaks. And that's a little harder, but it's like kind of finding that balance.

1:22:34but it is totally like it's a weird feeling because I'm not like I'm so grateful for everything and I'm so blessed because it's like what the moment that you the more negative stuff when everybody's coming to your page and doing that I mean you know the same no publicity is bad publicity yeah and you know again people I'm like people think I'm that smart to even know how to do any of that stuff. I'm like, man, come on. But it's just like, yeah, it's just a bit of tug and war. But again, it's, it all comes back. Everything for me has circled back to balance. And I think that's been, this year has been such a learning curve for me.

1:23:17And the one thing that continually comes back to my mind is balance. Yeah. There's a tension where like when I'm at home and I'm in my rhythm and I'm getting to do the routine exactly as I like it every day. I'm going to see my kids. We're spending time together. I can feel the relationship getting better. And then I'm like, this is how it's supposed to be. My work is better. Like I didn't go anywhere for 500 days. Like I didn't travel for work for 500 days during COVID. And I was like, holy shit, this is like, I'm operating at a whole other level. Everything in my life is working. and then then you're like but i gotta get back on the road like you know then right then you're like someone wants to pay me somewhere to not do this yes you know and yeah so you you have these two parts of yourself this part that knows what's working and knows what's better and then you have this other part that needs to do this thing both professionally and in its own way personally right and and yeah it's the balance of it is so tough it's it's interesting and it's like and i think everyone deals with that in some sense.

1:24:20You know, we all have what we have to do. And then the things that we like, feel like we, we want to do, you have your job and then you've got this, but then it's like, we're, we feel like we're, it's, we're being pulled two different ways. And, you know, again, that looks different for everybody. Well, and it's, but it's hard to calculate the opportunity costs, right? So it's like, you're going on the road and you're like, this is what I'm making being on the road. This is good. but what's harder to calculate is when i'm home i'm writing better yeah i'm happier i'm sleeping more i'm eating better you know i'm i'm on a scheduling to like that's worth something that's worth so much and i had to really sit back as i go into the next year because i i did a lot this past year saying yes and i'm not really even talking about shows i talked about other things that I was saying, and I was just wearing myself thin.

1:25:11And right before the record came out, there were two days where it was just like stack, stack, stack, stack. And I had to get up extra early. I was like, all right, if I want to work out today, which I do, and I have to do that, I have to get up at 3.30 this morning and I have to do all this stuff. And then I'm still working until 11 p.m. tonight doing these things. And I look back and I'm like, you know, you wouldn't have worn yourself that thin. say no and i look and that that kind of all came to me as well when i was like looking back at the at the things that i you know the the way i used to operate before things really took off for me is i'm like you you know you didn't have as many things to to say yes to yeah you thought you were good at saying no but it's actually just being asked to do now i'm like i'm like hey you can't say yes to everything you can't be so accessible and that's a problem like i can reach anybody right now off that phone and so you know that's that's but i look back and you know this last year i missed three weddings of people very close to me going to play shows and i'm like i don't really even remember those shows or how much money i made but i'm like i do remember seeing my whole entire family together three separate times and we rarely get to do that we don't get to do that i'm like i'm gonna miss i missed out on that and you know and so to me it was like i had this amazing shows and i'm very very blessed but i'm like going into this next year i have to make time for my family and my fans tell me that all the time they're like you they they literally and that's what's so great about they'll come to vip and they're like they'll be like hey you should make some time for yourself yeah which i think is amazing that they're they're they're saying that and when you're in your head you think like saying no like you're going to disappoint people and then you in it's only in retrospect that you realize nobody gives a shit like like when i ask people to do stuff and they say no or they don't respond you know what i think about it i don't think anything right you're like i asked 20 people and eight said yes i'm i'm thinking about the eight people that said yes.

1:27:26Right. And that, you know, it, it, and that's why I'm like in this next year, I was like, I only want to, I have a list of like interviews I'd like to do or appearances that I can make. Like, I'm like, I want to work towards those, but not just do, you know, if that, that's the thing too. I'm like, only go do things that mean something to you and that you're interested in. I did a lot of things this year that I was like, Oh, I don't want to do this. And I'm like, why are you doing it then you don't get that time back and I do agree on pushing yourself sometimes and sometimes it is good to go to do these things but I'm also like there's so many things that are this is such a good opportunity I'm like yeah I'm going to be miserable so I would I'm like I don't care if you know that you know this could have been an amazing opportunity and like boosted my career a million points but I'm going to be miserable I'm like I would rather go do something that means something to me.

1:28:22And I think we, I really have to focus on trying, again, balance. It's all balance. When my books first started to sell, I met this sports psychologist who works with all his baseball teams and he gave me this amazing advice. He was like, look, he's like when guys first make it, especially the guys that come from like South America or Costa Rica or these other countries, he's like, they got there because they fucking swing at everything. He's like, there's even a saying from like the Dominican Republic that you don't walk off the island. Like you hit, you have to hit, right? You hit at everything.

1:28:56You don't get there by being walked, right? And he's like, but as soon as you get in the league, he's like, it's all about pitch or it's all about swing discipline or pitch discipline. It's all about what you don't swing at. Because the best people in the world are throwing pitches at you to try to trick you. Oh yeah, for sure. And so he's like, it's all about saying no. And he gave me this sign that's in my office. is between two pictures of my kids. And so it was one on the top, one on the bottom. In the middle, it's just this sign that says no. Like capital letters, no. Because when you're saying yes to stuff, it's not just you're saying yes to stuff and now you're busy.

1:29:32You're saying yes to stuff. And by definition, everything you say yes to is saying no to something else. And a lot of times, that's not a different opportunity that could be worth more. You're saying no to yourself, like to your mental health, to your physical health, to your creativity, to just happiness and enjoying the success that you have. Right. And so you have to get so good at saying no, or I wouldn't say I'm good at saying no, but I'm good at just not responding. I've gotten way better at just ignoring it. And a lot of times it goes away. Yeah. Oh, for sure. Yeah. Napoleon had this policy of he would sometimes open his mail like three weeks late because by the time he opened it, a lot of things would have resolved themselves.

1:30:17Right. Right. Yeah. And that can be true. When people are offering you stuff with deadlines, you're like, you know, if I just respond like a week late after. Yeah. Oh, sorry. I missed it. They don't know. For sure. It's of course better to, it's better if you have the confidence and the security and the upfrontness to be like, I can't do it, but you don't have to. Yeah. And you don't have to apologize. That's the other one. Someone told me two things. One, which is like, you don't have to say sorry. And when you give an explanation, what you're often doing is asking them to argue with you. And then the other thing they told me was like, you don't owe anyone a response.

1:30:52Like if someone sends you an unsolicited inquiry, like you don't owe them stewing about it, thinking about it, justifying why you can't. You didn't ask for it. Exactly. Yeah. You can just pretend you didn't get it. Right. That is very good advice.

1:31:13what oh okay alright cool but you have that great line was it in psychopath where you say it's a rule down south that you can't talk about your mental health the night yes it's hard to talk about this stuff yeah because it's vulnerable right right yeah yeah I mean it really it really is and like growing up too around these you know these southern like the southern men in my life but even so you know more of the women obviously my mom was much more of like asking me about things and like talking about stuff but the men like you know especially my grandpa and then they grew up they did not have yeah therapists they were lucky to have food on the table you know so it it is but i think things i do think things are getting a little better with that because we're talking about it more and that's like the biggest thing.

1:32:08But even then talking about stuff, I don't know how many therapy sessions it took for me to really be like, okay, I'm going to like actually be openly honest, like in actually in depth with you about what's really going on now. Yeah. No, I hate this bullshit that like Gen Z and millennials are fragile and they have all these mental health issues. It's like, just cause you didn't treat your alcoholism or your anxiety or your depression doesn't mean you didn't have it that i would argue that people are no more or less unhealthy than they've ever been in history no it's just people are actually doing something about it and by the way part of the reason we have these issues is because you didn't deal with your issues and your parents didn't deal with their issues and it's a chain of suffering it just i mean and the thing is no matter what century you're in like we talked about it earlier like you have there's a whole new set of of issues going on yeah yeah it's but people are people and have the same fucking problems that they've always right for sure well this was amazing thanks yeah no thanks man appreciate you having me thanks for making time yeah for sure

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