Mt. Joy’s Matt Quinn on Consistent Growth Vs. Overnight Success (And Which Is Sweeter)

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1:19Welcome to the weekend edition of The Daily Stoic. Each weekday, we bring you a meditation inspired by the ancient Stoics, something to help you live up to those four Stoic virtues of courage, justice, temperance, and wisdom. And then here on the weekend, we take a deeper dive into those same topics. We interview Stoic philosophers. We explore at length how these Stoic ideas can be applied to our actual lives and the challenging issues of our time. Here on the weekend, when you have a little bit more space when things have slowed down. Be sure to take some time to think, to go for a walk, to sit with your journal, and most importantly, to prepare for what the week ahead may bring.

2:11Hey, it's Ryan. Welcome to another episode of the Daily Stoic Podcast. They say as you get older, you're become less and less open to new music, that your tastes sort of ossify. And I would guess now in my, it seems weird to say late 30s, but mid to late 30s, I don't know. My days of discovering up and coming new bands probably over. I think I still discover a lot of great writers, great thinkers. I still think that appetite is open. But you stop being so on trend as you get older because you know what you like and those rabbit holes are so endless that you just kind of stay in them. And then there's the pleasure, as the Stokes talk about, of coming back to the same thing and finding something new about it.

3:02But it was weird. Back Back in COVID, I started listening to this band. They weren't that big. They didn't have a ton of streams on social. And I liked them. And I mentioned them in a Daily Stoke email. I quoted a lyric from one of their songs. And then back in 2022, I had the lead singer on the podcast. It was virtual. And I remember that he was in a didn't seem like a super nice hotel. They was on the road. They were about to go over maybe the Canadian border for something. I mean, they were definitely popular, but not huge. And I remember talking to Matt Quinn. He was the lead singer of Mount Joy.

3:42That's the band. They're awesome. About navigating the sort of the grind of the music business, like fame, the business side, like figuring out how to make it as musicians, how to survive as musicians. And then I saw that they were coming to Austin to perform at the Moody Center, which I was like, whoa, I would have guessed maybe they were playing at the outdoor Moody Amphitheater, which is an awesome venue. Austin has a ton of mid-sized venues, but it wasn't until recently we got the Moody Center acts that could sell like 15 to 20 ,000 seats had somewhere to play. So oftentimes in the 10 plus years I've lived here, you have to go to like San Antonio or Houston or Dallas to see big shows.

4:19So I was like, whoa, Mount Joy's playing the Moody Center. And I listen to them all the time, but they're kind of on playlists that I have or when it's like best of 2020, best of 2021, like my most listened to songs, my Spotify wrapped. So I guess I just hadn't gone to their Spotify thing in a long time. And here, I'll pull it up now. The numbers were crazy. I was like, whoa, good for you guys. You know, I always like that indie stuff of like not wanting a band to blow up. I was like, oh man, good for them. Silver Lining, one of their great songs has 287 million plays. Dirty Love is 130 million.

4:51Strangers has 120. Astro Van has 124 julia has 86 million i mean these are crazy numbers let me see i like younger days that's a good song i like i'm your wreck that's a good song i like rearrange us i like strangers i'm seeing which ones i downloaded orange blood is good anyways i like a bunch of their stuff they have something like 7 million monthly listeners and they just performed at Madison Square Garden. Matt came out to the Daily Stokes studio. We talked about stage fright, performance anxiety, philosophy in the music industry, and how do you meet your moment? And then that sort of underdog up and coming mentality that you need, at some point, does it stop serving you?

5:40You can follow Matt at MattQuinnMJ on Instagram and the band on TikTok at MountJoyBand. Mount is just MT. you can head to mountjoyband.com see their touring schedule and just give them a listen I think they're great it was really cool to have this conversation and I'll talk to y 'all soon

6:04how long is the tour you're on? so we've been going since June and that was like Europe and then this is the last three weeks so like it feels really good like obviously it's the start of something's little butterflies and stuff but i'm like it's a different feeling because it's like these little chunks oh it's not one big long thing or it is but it's like you'll do like you know uh europe was like three weeks and we came home for like two weeks and then you go out for like four weeks and then you come home for two weeks and you go out for four weeks and then this is the last one of that i think there have been basically four of those chunks yeah and yeah like in the middle it's like anything else like in the middle you're like oh god do Do you have a bunch of time off after or do you have to immediately do all the things that piled up while you're gone?

6:49Pretty much that. We're about halfway through like finishing the record. Yeah. And with that amount of touring, it's like once it stops, it's like full album mode and finish an album and hopefully make it an awesome fourth album. I feel like when I was younger, I was better at like doing a lot of things at the same time. And like I used to be really productive on airplanes. Oh, yeah. And then as I've gotten older, I can't like now it's just like total dead time to me. I can really I can I can do what I do better than I could when I was younger. But I can't but I can only do it well if that's like the only thing I'm doing.

7:26Yeah. I mean, for me, I've I've tried to write on the road, which is sort of the music version of what you're talking about. Yeah. But it's it's hard. I mean, I think it's also two totally different disciplines. Like we don't do the same show every night. We try to change things up. So I feel like we're writing this sort of, I mean, it's not like drastically different. We're not a jam band. We're like, no song is the same. Yeah. But we do have like, I think honestly, just we have a lot of like respect for that world and stuff and how cool it is to feel like as a fan, which we are, of course, of music as well, like to go to a show and not be 100 % sure what's about to happen.

8:04Yeah. Creates like a certain level of excitement that we try to have. So you're writing a little bit for the show. you're saying like hey crazy idea coming in the morning like crazy idea what if we did a taylor swift song because something in the world happened with taylor swift of course or something you know that's just an example but you know so at that point that takes some of your sort of writing cpu if you will and i therefore you know maybe if we were doing the same exact show the same joke every night you know it was just this sort of autopiloted thing where you could just write the rest of the day yeah but the way we do it i really like i'll sometimes just like be you You know, you get to travel.

8:40So like sometimes you'll see something and I'll pull out my little voice and I'll be like, yeah, I'll have a thought or something. Yeah. But it's that's pretty much like the extent of it. And sometimes, you know, like I always tell myself, like, and I'm sure you feel the same way. It's like just try to like experience things and then the best things will happen. Like just try to be a person who's on tour, who has an interesting life and then channel that into something hopefully interesting from a writing perspective. I heard Jerry Seinfeld say this thing about how like you make your money during the day, but you collect it at night.

9:13Ooh, I love that. Isn't that good? I love that. I mean, especially for me, I'm a night person too. Oh, I mean, not at all, but really not at all. I'm like, I'm done by like 10 AM. Like my, like, cause I have young kids. So my son woke up at five 30 this morning by the time, you know, I was at my desk having dropped them off to school. It was eight 14. Yeah. I was done by 1030 today, like creative writing. Everything else is administrative crap, but that's, you know, in life. And I'm recording an audio book and I have like other stuff that I'm doing. That's not uncreative, but like the generative thing all in the morning.

9:53Wow. Sometimes I feel like, like I long for that, but I can't be that person. Yeah, because your audience is at night. Yeah. Yeah. Music is weird. I did this book for these rappers one time and they were like, okay, we're going to get to the, we're going to do some stuff in the studio. I'm like, okay, what time? And they're like, they're like one, 1am, like starting. I know. I know. I do. I do think though, for some people, I guess, you know, for me and maybe those people, like I sort of get it in the sense that sometimes to get out of your own head, you have to be that loopy tired. Yeah. You don't want, there's diminishing returns to like, if you're exhausted, it's just, it's not going to work.

10:29But like, if you have a little bit of energy and that little bit of like, maybe I'm becoming disillusioned and all of a sudden something that would never have come out of you before, you know, if you're searching for, I guess that's just a different approach to creativity, but like comedy and music, I feel like the audience doesn't want to hear it at three in the afternoon. So you can't like do the show then. So you have to, you have to wire a good chunk of your life just around like when the audience is done with their work, that's when they're like, well, where are you guys? 100 yeah and when you were saying that i thought of the like uh it's like a psychology i don't know if it's even true but the idea that like if you're drunk while you're studying you should be drunk during the test you know yeah and so it's like yeah you should you should make your music at the like the best possible time for people to listen to it or something but yeah you can't record like a party song at 8 17 in the morning after you dropped your kids out of school you gotta like work your way up to that it's like a slow burn kind of exactly actually i have an interesting thing um i uh years ago my manager and i i guess he was managing some hip-hop artists and one of them came and was recording this is before mountjoy and he sort of figured out just from living he was living with us for a couple weeks and he was like oh you know figured out that i do music and that i sing and then he was like i want to put you on a song and i had like sang before you know like in bands and stuff and i for me he was successful and successful enough that i was like this is a good opportunity yeah i can't say no even though i don't fit in this song really but so i said yes long story short we're recording in like a closet somewhere in los angeles and he's got this setup and i start going and he's kind of like you know you gotta get pumped up like to your point he's like you gotta get pumped up and i'm like okay i'm gonna get pumped up you know like but I'm a pretty like you know even keel guy and so he finally comes in and he start he like starts to kind of like pushing my pushing me and like like roughing me up and I was like this is a really interesting approach like I've never done it again but like in his music was like pretty high energy yeah and I like the way he was approaching it was like when he went in we then went to like a nicer studio and he did his part and he had people in there like like a bunch of and they were like like pushing him around like slapping him and like like it was this really physical yeah thing and and i mean i think the music like comes off that way yeah you know and in his concerts he like takes a show up it's very sort of i was gonna say menacing but that's the wrong word but it but there is there is a menace and a harshness to it which is the whole thing is kind of preposterous in the sense where it's like i hate you so i wrote this poem about you yeah you know like there's something silly about it so like you have to kind of i think take on like a character or like artists pretend, you know, you have to get into a place you're writing about something you're by definition, not experiencing in that moment in a very artificial setting.

13:26You have to kind of tap into some like deeper vein in the way that how does an actor or an actress just make themselves like cry on command? They have to like go somewhere else. Totally. Yeah. I mean, for me, it's like the whole experience of being a musician is sort of what you're talking about. Like you have to get into a headspace because that makes you feel like you can sing songs about your ex-girlfriend and that that's okay and not weird in and of itself yeah yeah or that i deeply mean this but also i don't mean it at all like this isn't real you know like i'm you're writing from the perspective of a character or something you haven't yourself experienced but you're sincere about 100 and i well i do a lot of like almost all of my songs have some truth to them yeah they're they're a story either that i am connected to or that it directly happened to me or whatever.

14:15And so at some point during our growth as a band, you know, one of the ways that I deal with stage fright is that I'm like, this is really dumb, which is like to hear you say is preposterous is like that's sort of my approach in a way is that like whatever happens here, hopefully it goes well. Hopefully I sing the right notes. Yeah. But this is this is preposterous. This is all sort of a joke anyways. Yeah. And so like the levels to it are that like if you don't take yourself too seriously kind of thing and then seeing people who take that to a whole nother level where there's this whole sort of you know i'm pretty reserved on stage i'm not like climbing the scaffolding or anything like that but you do see people doing that and i i think it sort of helps me actually to be like you know people take this to extreme levels of you know being preposterous right yeah and i'm just up here just sort of just just let me sing about my ex-girlfriend you know it's kind of funny that like this thing that pretty much everyone thought was lame in high school like all like entertainment and i'm including writing theater uh singing you know all of it like it was all not cool like decidedly uncool and then as soon as everyone left high school and went to their respective place and then somehow succeeds at that thing then it becomes not just like cool but the coolest thing right and so sometimes yeah you have i just try to go like you're a fucking nerd dude you write about ancient philosophy and then you get up and you talk to people about it with these stupid slides like that feels it's not like an imposter syndrome like but but it is just trying to kind of like wipe away maybe like the ego and self-importance which can create like a fear or a paralyzation totally you kind of lower the stakes by going like this is really silly yeah well it's actually it's funny like in the sort of philosophical way like i you know there's so many different ways to i guess approach like you know whether it's stage fright or or whatever but you know the sort of anxiety around being an artist and i think one of the things that i think about is like there's the idea like obviously control what you can control is such a big part of all that stuff but the problem with that is is that like you're in some control here yeah as a performer as a writer or whatever it's like and so you do put a certain amount of pressure on yourself to control that situation.

16:31And that creates its own anxiety. But I think what really helps with that is to be like, well, even within that, I've prepared as much as I can or whatever it is. And truly the best medicine for me is just being like, and it's all very silly. Yes.

16:52We just took our kids to an outdoor performance at The Nutcracker. They had a snow cone and then they went insane. in the car ride home. And one of the things I try to remind myself when that's happening is that I don't control my kids' behavior, especially when they're too far gone like that, but I do control how I respond, right? That's stoicism, but it's also what Dr. Becky talks about. Dr. Becky is a clinical psychologist and a best-selling author, and she founded Good Inside, which is there to give parents practical, actionable tools for handling those everyday challenges with confidence.

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20:17real time so one of the i this was like 5 000 people is an insane amount of people and they weren't here to see me they were it was a conference i was just like one of the people it's like a festival audience you know like you don't get to give yourself credit for all the people we call that a soft audience yes yeah so it's like you know it's a soft audience and then you know like there's going to be this delay which effectively like in what i do means you get nothing from the audience because you're not like they're not breaking into applause they're not getting up and dancing. So basically I was just like, I'm going and I decided to tell myself, I'm going to go do something that I'm going to get literally crickets for.

20:54So just don't stress about it at all. There is, there really is no good or bad performance here. There's just like, did you do it? And they knew what they were bringing when they brought you that they didn't choose. They chose someone who didn't speak English or who only spoke English. And so kind of just, yeah, figuring out some way to address the stakes. So you can kind of just go and be present and do the thing. Yeah. You're always just finding some version of that for the unique situation that you're going into. Here's a question. Yeah. Did it work? I don't know. No, I didn't. I have no idea.

21:28I created a self-contained thing where that way I didn't walk off stage in a cold sweat and be like, I got nothing. Like I had to go know what it meant. And I guess I'll get the video of it after. But I mean, like for you, like, cause I mean, ultimately. I think I did good yeah like you went you went into it you didn't feel nervous you didn't feel you know like not that you didn't feel nervous I'm sure you felt a little nervous but I have this like little um piece of art on our wall our house that someone gave me and they didn't know how perfect it was but like I remember I I was backstage before a thing sometimes oftentimes there's like a bunch of speakers and so obviously I'm like trying to get in my headspace so I'm not paying attention at all what's happening on stage and then the person comes off stage and I was like you were great up there.

22:11And of course I had not, I don't know if they were great. I was just being nice. And then afterwards I got off and someone was like, you were great. And I remember feeling like, yes. And then you took it. Yeah. And then like, at like my next talk, someone gave me this piece of art and it literally just says you were great up there. And I think about that all the time because it's just like, actually, if people said it was terrible or good, it doesn't matter. You have to kind of create your own little bubble where you decide whether it was good or not. even though you also care about delivering a great show, but like if you're riding or dying on how it felt to you from the place you are least fit to judge what's happening, you're setting yourself up for some very fragile post-performance feelings.

22:59For sure. The music version of that is great set, dude. Yeah. Everyone always says that like at festivals. I was just walking around like great set. No one saw the set. No, no, no. they were all like getting changed but you'll see a guy be like great set dude you'll be like you too man great set yeah just the the ease with what you give it to other people and then the the weight in which it feels with you and then realizing that yeah when people say nice things or mean things about you on the internet they they didn't even experience what they were giving this nice or mean opinion about yeah it's just things people say yeah i've read your your writing i I think some obviously a lot of people listening to this have read your writing.

23:37I think it's interesting to imagine you, the person who is dispensing so much amazing knowledge, like in practice, like going in front of thousands of people or in a pretty stressful situation and leaning on all the things that you still like the job. Like I think that's must be fascinating for you, too. And that like music is this thing. It's this artistic thing. And then also it's like you have to be at the Moody Center at a time tomorrow. Yeah, sure. And, and like go through some motions and then you have to like go up and do a thing from this time to this time. And if you're short, they're mad.

24:09If you're long, they're mad. Sure. And then there's just like, it's a thing. And so like seeing it as kind of a profession that people have done for a long time, there's like tips and tricks. It's like, it's also part of that kind of demystification that you need to have to like know how to do it. Totally. Well, and I think about how, like, I don't know. and I wonder what your all the things that you've learned make you feel about this. But like for me, I think it's when I'm healthy. Yeah. Mentally, physically. Sure. And like, you know, just generally doing well. I feel like I don't have to necessarily like there's sort of an autopilot good energy going into something like we're talking about like public speaking or even if it's something as simple as like i really i really need to call a family member and tell them they need to do x y or z or my opinion on something which is stressful or whatever those things just happen when you're in that like good flow but i feel like when i lean on or when i'm having the internal monologue of like control what you can control or whatever you're trying to say or like you know i do the uh mine is what if you're great like trying to just unwind what does that mean um Someone taught me this once and it really works, but it's like, or for me anyway.

25:24The idea is that if you're having performance anxiety, and you could apply this to anything, but it's like that what's happening is you're projecting that something is going to go bad or that you're going to have a less than ideal performance or the phone call with your friend's going to go bad or whatever. And like with equal likelihood, you could just try to turn the tide and be like, what if it goes really well? Yeah. Like, what if I actually start having almost a grandiose illusion about it? Like, what if it actually, like, what if this person comes in? Because ultimately it's all completely, you don't know.

25:59The outcome is completely unknown. So it could be just as likely that you're going to kill it. And it's actually probably more likely the more you think like that. So it's like, so just to try to turn the tide and stop the feedback loop of anxiety to just be like, all right, about to go out there. There's a lot of people out there. Plan for success also, not just like, Like it's all going to fall apart because you suck and you're not going to, you can't do this. Exactly. I remember I was talking to a, like a finance person once I was like getting some advice from them and I was like, and obviously this isn't going to keep going, you know, it's going to, like I just done these, this book deal.

26:30So like this is my last big one. And then it all goes back to normal. And he was like, this is all great to think about. But he's like, have you ever thought about a career trajectory in which you continue to be successful? You know? Exactly. I was like, no, you know, because that felt like kind of presumptuous and weird. And it is like, you can't just go like the artist that takes their future for granted isn't going to do the work. But just the idea of like, if you're always playing it small or playing not to lose, you're probably not going to win. And there's going to be things that you need to be able to conceive of that your sort of small mindedness is preventing you from conceiving.

27:07yeah that makes me think about um like when you're writing a book or i guess just writing in general or even podcasting and you have like a really good idea yeah but you haven't done it yet you haven't written it you haven't like actually put it on the page or even fully mapped out maybe the plan for a book or something do you tell people no yeah ever exactly you don't talk about it you got to keep that energy in the thing yeah because you're to me that's like uh buying it's like putting it on a credit card or something exactly you're like get your or it's like a payday loan it's like very high interest you know it's like crippling interest yes like because you're getting the like if you're like hey i got this idea well it's actually two things so best case scenario you tell someone about the idea they're like that's fucking awesome you're great and then you already like you already got the reward so maybe you're not going to do it got the dopamine yeah and then the other thing which is more likely is you go like so i have this like amazing idea it for a book and you start to say it and then you're like oh this sounds so dumb never mind it's so dumb you get like this the cringe of like you got to go figure it out you can't like if you were describing to me the song you were thinking of writing i'd be like sure that sounds great you know like i'd be rolling my eyes because it probably sounds terrible this is what i'm doing right now this is my life right now so i'm making tons of voice memos and my manager is here you know occasionally will be like i was thinking about this on the flight just a couple hours ago He was like, hey, send me some voice memos.

28:34Like, I'd love to hear like what you're working on. And I just sort of, and this is not going to be a funny thing where you're going to be like, that's why you never send me voice memos. But I can't. Not because I don't want him to hear it. I'm maybe even excited about it. Or maybe I'm not. Or maybe I'm nervous. Whatever. I can't say what it is. But it's exactly that. It's like stolen valor or something like that. You don't want to do that because for everything you just said. And also, I just think that lowers your confidence. Like really my confidence. Yeah. because I find myself, the idea is only gonna be good.

29:04It has a high ceiling, but there's plenty more to do. I don't know. It's like once it like gets out of the water before it can breathe or something like that, then you're like, oh, this thing can't even breathe. Oh, yeah, yeah. Like, you know. You know, it's like dead on arrival or something. Yeah, editors are always like, just send me some of the chapters you're working on. Like, and it's, and I don't know. Yeah, it'd be like, show me the piece of the house you're building. You gotta, like, once it's largely framed out, Like there's places where people can start to see it, but it's most precarious and vulnerable in that like you got to go do the like the actual work before you can show people it.

29:40Now, do people like you're a successful writer, do people pitch you things and are like, is it to put in my stuff? Well, yeah, but no, I mean, now that I'm thinking about this, I'm realizing I've had experiences, not that I'm judging people for this, but I've had experiences where people kind of come to me because they think I'm some sort of source of knowledge. for songwriting or whatever and they're like i've got this you know great like they're doing the thing yeah yeah you know and and i'm working on this or i'm working on that sort of type conversation and i wonder if it's like i don't know i wonder if it if it becomes a i guess like a cultural known thing that's like don't do that like yeah it should be it should be like keep it to your fucking self do it man like yeah you know tell me i can't help you yeah yeah although um as i was gonna ask you about this i'm fascinated with this thing i think max martin the songwriter calls it like the the pch test uh do you know this no okay so he'll write a song and then he does a demo of it and then he puts it in his car and he drives up pch oh and he has to hear it there yeah and the idea of thinking of music not just as this like isolated artistic expression to the artist but like a thing that does a job for someone.

30:54And the job is like, we listen to music in our car and there's no more representative experience or better drive than the PCH. It's a commercial, yeah. Yeah. And so it's like, does it work there? There's a story about the Rolling Stones too, where they couldn't decide like between two different singles on their album. So the manager sent it to a radio station and then they heard it on the radio in the car driving just to see which one it was. The idea of like, testing the thing in a real environment is very interesting to me yeah 100 well i think there's a couple things i think about one is the this is what i think creates what we call demoitis because i think whether it's that's super intentional i'm going to drive up pch but even like there's less intentional things where it's like you're making something and yeah you know i'll often have my voice member or something i'm driving i'm stuck in traffic let me just because sometimes it's actually just really helpful to hear it back in a different environment and different space because then maybe you come up with a lyrical idea in the car and you're like recording it on this literally do that kind of stuff all the time but i think then what happens is there's an attachment to let's say you're driving at pch or whatever and you're like man this sounds so good i think like i'm become convinced this is album four and i've been doing this for even beyond that like that the best sounding song to an artist to the person creating it is somewhere between the demo and the final product in terms of like the mixing and the mastering and all this stuff that ultimately sort of like shines up this thing that you made yeah because it starts to get away from those probably feelings you maybe had when you were going to the p station you were just listening and yeah like you know maybe the drums were a little too loud or like maybe the voice needed some some reverb or whatever it was but then once those things are added i think it becomes this thing where that's the expectation of what music should sound like okay but it wasn't your your thing you know it's a little different than than what your thing is and that like probably imperceptible like i heard benny blanco talking about this like the crap you put into a song in the last like little bit can make an enormous difference actually for like the commercial viability of the song yeah but i actually think most people if like put in a situation where they just listen to the old demo and then they listen to that they you know suit so to speak i think would easily be like that you know the newer the crispy the loud the whatever it is give me that but i think like the soul of people actually really would love to hear people's more like not i'm not saying super rough where it's like unintelligible but this zone where it's like you've gotten it the artist has taken it as far as they want it to go yeah and of course like there's mixing and stuff that happens where you're like oh i love that you just made that so much better.

33:34I'm not saying it's a totally, you know, unimportant art, you know, but I think for me, there's so many times, and I hear about this all the time with artists where it's like, you get stuck with the mixer because the mixer is saying you have demo-itis. And it's like, it's happened enough now over enough years with me and with friends who are artists where it's like, I don't think that's like a, an evil thing that happens to artists. I think it's a real thing sort of to what you're talking about, where there's, there's this attachment to the, you know like the sort of living organism that was this imperfect piece of of art yeah i i don't know i think like it could just be things like that like maybe you drove in the car and you heard it and like just exactly like that you even sometimes i'll have the thought internally and not tell anyone but i'll be like this is gonna work yeah but that's what i mean it's like feeling it in the environment that gives you the scent like the the context that you consume the thing matters, but you're rarely creating it or experiencing it in that context.

34:31One of the things I learned on my books is, so you can see over there, that's an audio book that I'm doing, but they'll send you the PDF of your book to edit once it's been designed, but nobody reads it as a PDF. So I was like, no, you got to print it. It's got to look exactly like the book. As I'm doing my final edits, I'm somewhat close to the context in which someone's going to be doing it. I've told this one before, but Raymond Chandler would write with these really small pages. He wouldn't use a large sheet in a typewriter because he knew his book would ultimately come out as a small paperback.

35:06And so on a page, you have this whole page to get to this thing. But the actual reader, that might be three or four pages. So they just read four pages where nothing happened. But if he'd written on a small page, it would have shrunk the context. Yeah. I think thinking about the context in which the thing is going to happen. Yeah. Like, hey, people read my book on airplanes. The medium is the message. Yeah. Yeah, totally. I mean, I think ultimately that's why songs sound the way they do, actually, right? It's because like, well, they're not going to drive in their car with all of the sort of context you have about how the song was made and, you know, why things, why choices were made.

35:42But yeah, I just mean from the artists and I wonder if that's, it's probably a little different writing wise because I guess editing is probably, well, you can tell me like, I assume it's pretty technical. Like, hey, this is a bad comma here or something like that. Yeah, I think music feels much more su-generous. It's like you did the thing and then there's little tweaks here or there, but writing is the process of writing and rewriting and rewriting and rewriting because you can move the stuff around. There's no sense of like, this is it. It's like, it's different. But I feel like, speaking of context, maybe this is me projecting or adding my own experience, but you guys feel like a road trip band.

36:18Oh. Is that, am I making that up? One of our first like playlists or whatever that we got was like road trip something or other. And I, someone made that on Spotify or something. Yeah, exactly. And it, and our song like did well there and it had a decent following. And I think from that moment, it's sort of like we got, yeah, I guess that's just happened naturally. But I remember seeing that and being like, I feel like that's objective. Like we are the road trip band, you know? Yeah. And not like a road trip through Belgium. It's like, feels like a very American, like West. like i couldn't decide if i was making this up because i have listened to you guys on road trips like i i think i found you guys right before the pandemic and then we did a road trip during the pandemic so i remember you know you can you associate music with events in your life but it just feel you feel like a band that works in the car yeah in this and that's what made me think of the car test where you're like obviously you wouldn't test classical music necessarily on the pch like certain music does certain jobs but yeah maybe a rapper has to hear it in a club or something yeah if it's working yeah i don't know i mean i think for me it's interesting one i think the band sounding good in the car i think in part is because we're a band yeah you know like we're kind of a dying breed there are there are other bands out there for sure but you're a band not a group yeah or exactly or like um you know like we have it's me but then we have like incredible players in the band um who really like i'm bringing you know uh lyrical content and maybe you some chords and then ultimately what you're hearing is is this band that like comes together to you know make the song sound really great or whatever and i think like bands work in a car yeah you know there's an there's an energy about about a band you know whereas like sort of super produced pop music of course also works in a car but but i think on a road trip maybe like there's the nostalgia with road trips or there's there's sort of nostalgia about bands i think that's one piece of it and then i think the other piece maybe hopefully for me self-serving is like lyrically and then where the songs just start like on guitar and whatever like some of my most inspired and sort of like you know when my antenna are like really reaching things i feel like is like being on a train and looking out the window or like being in the being in a car and just like you know looking out the window and seeing i guess just seeing america really you know growing up doing road trips and where mount joy started was i i was from the east coast i was in my young 20s And I moved to Los Angeles, not even really chasing music, but, you know, and you're in Los Angeles, you're in your young 20s, like you're hiking around, you're experiencing nature as much as you can.

38:56Because, I mean, I love Philadelphia. It's one of my favorite places on the planet, but like geographically, physically quite different. It doesn't get enough credit for what the amount of geographic diversity you can get within like two hours. Yeah. I mean, it's one of the most stunning cities. My wife is Brazilian. in i went to rio and i was like rio is also incredibly beautiful but in a really similar way to la area of like the mountains crashing into the ocean very dramatically and like there aren't many places like that that i've personally been to so yeah so i was doing that in la and and then that's when the start of these songs came out so i feel like hopefully it's just the natural like yeah these songs kind of come from being an observer of yeah of the road and yeah it's cool i know something random i just learned on the internet so it's probably i wouldn't say It's misinformation because the stakes here are low.

39:42But do you know what? LA is weird in that it's by this beautiful ocean, Santa Monica, and then an enormous port, Long Beach, but like the actual city of Los Angeles is not near those things. Right. That's because the Spanish passed a law that said the founding of all new cities had to be 20 miles from the ocean because they were tired of having to build forts to defend against pirates. Whoa. That's why LA... So it's next to a river like, you know, Oliveira Street where Union Station is downtown. Like, obviously the river is near there. It's not really a big deal anymore because they paved it. Yeah.

40:15Like it's classic Los Angeles. But like it was founded next to a river as opposed to a seaport because it's more expensive to defend seaports from raiding other imperial powers. That's incredible. It makes it the most unique sort of city that I've been to just design wise. Like there's no other city that's so residential and sort of like Picasso, like you're describing where it's like, yeah, like you have this like ocean and then like, okay, downtown's like over here, but downtown's sort of like in the corner. And then, you know, like mountains up here. It is a very like, you know, whereas of course I'm from Philadelphia, I think it's like the first gridded American.

40:54Yeah. And most of the big American cities are on a grid. Well, you're like in downtown LA where I've lived and you're like, you guys know the ocean is like 12 or you can get to the water like really fast. Like, this is insane. What are we doing here? Yeah. But then you're like, oh, okay. Somebody made a decision in like the 1700s and that's why it's here. It's rendered. I mean, the downtown, I think, like, is it coming back or something? But it's rendered it like pretty irrelevant in the sort of like cultural zeitgeist that is like Los Angeles. I think you think of other places before, even especially when you're there, it's like, it's pretty rare for someone to be like, we're going downtown today.

41:28Or if you live downtown, you're like, I've been to the ocean like five times since I went here. You live in totally different places. Yeah. I feel like you guys have gotten much, much bigger since I talked to you last. Do you feel that? Yeah, I think, but only like this summer. Oh. It started to feel that way. I mean, you know, I guess like when I found out we were playing Madison Square Garden, being a kid from Philadelphia. Did they tell you that or you decide to do it? How does that work? I guess a little bit of both. You know, we played Central Park and we did two nights there last time. um and i think it just kind of gets to a point where i think both of those were like over 5 000 tickets and it was sold out and then like madison square garden like the next step is like okay you did 10 000 tickets last time the next step ups are like i mean inside baseball i guess but like forest hills or madison square garden and yeah so i guess in a way you sort of choose but you get there via like well your ticket sales have led you to this place yeah i guess that but then you know once we kind of got out this summer and we played specifically north america like europe's a little different for us a little further behind but yeah like once we started doing these shows this summer i mean we were in merriweather post pavilion and uh like the dc area and just like 13 14 000 people there and i think that amount of people for some reason it like you're like all of us i think collectively in the band because we've had these conversations internally a lot this summer where we're just like, what the hell?

42:57You know, like it's wild. And it would probably be more explicable, as I would say, if you had like one new song that was responsible for all of it, it feels like people are just are discovering stuff that's been around for a while, which is I think is a good reminder. People are making stuff, which is like, if people haven't heard it, it's still new. And so that's not typically how it goes usually it's powered on what's coming out not that your new stuff isn't great and popular but like there's not like a you're like this is why they're in this movie or this clip went viral or whatever 100 i actually i don't have a choice but i love that you know like i think it makes it a thing that we were just talking about making the the album it takes a little bit of pressure off it but it also i think puts the right pressure on creating when you're like hey actually just make yourself make something great yeah and make that barbie that you believe that and that you're not lying to yourself because i think yeah i think there's a laziness or just whatever inside of everyone that's like it's good enough but like to it's good because i made it yeah but to push past that and be like make something or you know or try to of course not everything that we make is truly great or whatever that's not what i'm saying but because you know that even if the first round because we've experienced this to your point where it's like even if the first thing you know comes out and isn't received critically acclaimed or whatever you never know especially now with like tick tock and reels and those types of things have like just dug up like so many old songs for people yeah i just sang on a song um lake missoula by richie mitch and the coal miners that was made in 2017 and they had another song evergreen which also 2017 that became one of like i mean it's been used in big political ad campaigns like it's just this sort of sound that went crazy seven eight years later yeah and you know so you never know what sort of technology is going to dig your music or art up in some way yeah and then for us i think if i could you know like just compliment the band and the work that we've done it's like i also think it's that combination of like if you get an opportunity to work hard and you do it and you put in the work and you get better and then as more and more people show up you're more and more prepared to meet that moment I think there's a little bit of that combined with luck and all that stuff that's helped us out.

46:03We think of the algorithm as being this thing that like plucks something from obscurity and blows it up. But it's also something where it's like it's noticing and we're projecting on it, but it's noticing that more and more people like this. And so it's showing it to more and more people. And so, yeah, like with authors, like oftentimes, like the best thing you can do for your book is to write another book because now someone's read two books from you and then three. So just this kind of building this base, suddenly one day you look back and it's big, but it never felt like there was some pivot moment where it went from obscurity to everyone knew about.

46:40And by the way, it tends not to work out that well for those people. Like everyone who goes from nothing to an overnight sensation, like it tends to be disorienting and destabilizing and often very destructive. It's probably better to have maybe a lower ceiling, but like a longer time span. Totally. I mean, I think about just the last piece, which is that you have to be prepared to meet that moment over and over and over again. If you if you become if you go straight to the top. Yeah. And on the backs of a song, a moment, a singular moment or maybe a couple of things. Well, now you're here. And, you know, from a music perspective, like or whatever, like you're up here.

47:21It's you, the Rolling Stones, the Beatles, the Beyonce, Taylor Swift, whatever. If you're up in that upper echelon of like, you know, cultural phenomenon, then you have to meet that moment repeatedly or else you're not as good as those people. And it's doing this, even though this trajectory line is still keeping you like we're down here. We're doing great, but you're doing that. Your failed album sold like millions of copies. Exactly. Exactly. It's all relative. But like, I think especially now, like perceived regression is like so much more harmful to your career in anything than like, yeah, I think just like being consistent in some way over the long haul.

48:03Of course, like you could look at it the other way and be like, well, those people made more money in one year than you're going to make in 10, which is like maybe great for them. Right. Sure, sure, sure. I don't know what we'll take it. I mean, like we're just like really enjoying the crowds and also just like because I think of the way we've done it, it creates this sense of community. The people that have like come back and are like, you know, really feel like they've gotten to see us do that. Sure. They've grown with us. Like they saw you at this venue, then this venue, then this. They've got to experience the small shows to the big shows.

48:33I would say that's one of the things that people, you know, we do sometimes do like meet with people before the shows. like that's one of the most common things that people say to us it's like you know i saw you when yeah sort of thing and that's like my favorite type of fan interaction in the sense where i'm like yeah like we're just doing this weird thing together aren't we like and like you can see how crazy you saw my terrible haircut in 2018 you know whatever like whatever it was right and that's you know that's a huge a huge part of why i think that people have fun at our shows because there is this like sense of like the crowds winning too.

49:07That's true. Yeah. As opposed to maybe how it was, I think when I was a kid, where it's like you kind of bands were always being like resented for succeeding or breaking through to some level, maybe because it's less visible. There's less of that. Like, I don't feel like anyone talks about selling out anymore. I was just going to, I thought that's where you're getting at. I was just going to say, like, I feel like when we were first touring, you know, we're in a van and I feel like you can really understand where that culture came from because it's really hard. It's hard work. You're touring in a van and you kind of become friends with this group of very also strange colleagues of yours, right, who are also.

49:41Colleague competitors. Yeah. They're like also touring in a van. They have a cool thing going for them. But the secret that you all know is that you're all broke. Yeah. Your business is a terrible business. It makes no money. It actually at times loses money. That part of it's really stressful. So I think when when a band gets a bus. Yeah. And like, you know, it's like your friend gets a new house or something or gets a new car. It's like it's so easy to be like, screw them, you know, like as if it's like a finite pie. Exactly. Yeah. And I think that that's where it came from. But I think I just think this like new generation of artists and really just like no one isn't getting marketed to at any one second at any one time.

50:24it is just full on you know it used to be like the commercials are annoying now it's like well like during commercial you're also holding a phone you're getting like three commercials at once it's a band or or an artist or a writer or someone promoting themselves and succeeding i really do feel like there's a you're right like there's a softness to that now where it's like of course i'm sure some people are like those guys are lame they're playing to so many people or something which is fine i i think that's cool but i think for the most for most people they're just like, oh, that's so cool that they're doing that.

50:55Have you been able to update your self perception? Like mine has been that way too, where there wasn't sort of one pivotal moment. It was like a series of just kind of slow, consistent increases that you wake up one day and you're like, man, my hair is long. Like I need to cut my hair. Like it's been a while, you know? And that's been good because I think it's healthier, but it also made it hard. If you're someone who is a little insecure, if you are not super optimistic, it can be hard for you to update your self-perception that you're like, I'm good. I can do this. This is my job now. Not that I've made it in that sense.

51:27I never have to work hard, but I'm not a flash in the pan because you didn't have this moment where you were suddenly the number one album in the country for several weeks in a row. It's a slower, more gradual thing. How do you update your self-perception? I think that's probably something I struggle with the most, if I'm being honest, is that I would love of course for one of our songs to have to just be crowned like you watch that happen that's your hit yeah like i would love for that to happen i'm not willing artistically to like push all the chips like there are certain ways yeah i think that one could do that now and and you know because you learn like oh man like this type of song you know if you if you have these certain elements then like you're maybe more likely yeah and you know some of that i think you try to use, but like to go all the way in and just try to make a hit is something that I feel like because of this success of retirement, it's like, it's not worth like, cause those people will see that for what it is.

52:26I'll get exposed or something. But yeah, I think that's the thing I'm, I'm worst at is that I sometimes have this sort of growing chip on my shoulder that like, man, I think what we're doing is just as good or something. But, you know, I quickly try to, to flush that because i think it goes back to what you were saying about like not wanting you're talking about speaking to like a financial advisor or whatever and like being like oh well soon this is going to be over yeah i think that's what drives me actually is this idea that like well no one's that we haven't ever had a hit like no you know there's nothing that's gonna you know exist even in the future for us and and i do tell myself that all the time i think i'm still pretty much the same mindset just so funny because each album i do this where it's like just write one more good album yeah this is your last last go around it's the it's the trump thing or whatever it's like they'll never have to be an election again like you know if you do if you make a certain quality thing then like of course you'll want to keep creating but it'll be stress-free you'll be there'll be nothing to worry about like you know like moves hands however but like i know deep down that that's not true because i've gone around the loop enough times you actually can imagine a world where this is not your last album like you bought yourself a couple more shots exactly um and i think that's the most i've been able to change is just to start to see that like to see the patterns enough yeah to be like this is probably the anxiety that actually got you here working again but yeah and maybe to accept that anxiety is just like a part of the creative process for me, but I don't know if it's healthy.

54:06Yeah. I don't think it's like, how long can you be fueled by like insecurity, doubt, scarcity? At some point you have to switch over to the fuel of like, I'm a professional that does this thing. The size of the crowd, the money might change at some point, or you're obviously at some point, all artists become less culturally relevant because it's, it's a young person's game, but like you've established or earned enough that like your people are there you have your people and yeah there's there's some feeling that if you ever allow yourself to think that it's all over and you stop being creatively good but clearly that's not the case you know for so many great artists yeah and i try to focus on those i you know because i think it's it's just as easy and i'm sure it's the same you know when you look at writers it's like you start to get to album four or whatever like i remember doing this for album two or whatever being like oh like people's second albums always flop or something like that like you can't flop here this is a can't flop situation or whatever and you know but on the flip side we're making our fourth album and you start to be like well this is usually where i have these thoughts i'll be like this is usually where bands kind of start to lose the thread you know or they they you know and and i've thought a lot about why that is you know maybe they started They're making a little bit of money.

55:24They don't need it as much or whatever it is. But I think being aware of those things helps me. But like I said, I'm not sure that it's a healthy way to create things. But I'm definitely trying to prove myself and these people who don't even know that I'm measuring myself to them wrong. My therapist said to me one time, she uses this phrase, what I make up is. And it's always interesting. You're like, fourth album's worth it. but I bet I could come up with a thousand counterexamples where actually like the fifth album was the biggest album. You know, it's just, we, we just, we tell some story to ourselves based on what we want to be true.

56:03Even if that thing like, isn't positive. Totally. Confirmation bias all the way. Yeah. Yeah. That's so funny. Totally. I mean, and I even, like I was going to say, I even look when I get too down that rabbit hole, like you go in and you look at people that you really look up to and that's the sort of what, if you're great at that, right. It's to be like, okay, you could look at this band that like yeah yeah what if you're the national sure or or yeah or like exactly like these people that have just had sustained success over a longer tail and i think at this point in a really cool way i think it's a privilege to to be able to look at you know people that i look up to like the national and or you know like even like i don't know going further back like the rolling stones you were talking about or you know and anybody right that you look up to and seeing that's that like i like to look at bands from like the 60s and 70s just because it's like i'm still thinking about them yeah that's some longevity if you can do that then you solve the like the financial advisor thing it's like well like people should talk about from the 60s or whatever right so that is the dream and i i do very much model like as much as you can you know it's creativity i can't come up with the songs those people did but sure i try to understand like what did what what is it about the Grateful Dead?

57:14Like, what is it about, you know, sort of name the band, Neil Young or Joni Mitchell, or like, what is it about these things that have like, they're so sustaining through like different generations. They just pick up right where the last one left off. And like, this is great. And it's still great. You know, it's like, there's something. And how much of it is like, they kept making music and they kept touring. You know, if they like, obviously some of the people died. So it's not a foolproof thing, but like just the idea that like the main thing is to like keep doing the thing. Just keep going.

57:44Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think eventually like the truth is that I love doing it and like sharing my love for music with people, hopefully. And speaking for the band too, like we have just a bunch of people. Like you can't be in the band sort of business. It's a difficult business for like a bazillion different reasons unless you like really love music. And I hope like that one thing that carries us is that like that that comes off that like because people hopefully who are experiencing music live or recorded music have that same feeling yeah it was weird i saw a band a couple weeks ago i won't say who because they they gave me the tickets but like i i was like this is a very joyless performance and i sent it to the person and he was like oh yeah he's he's like off the wagon that's why and i was like oh that's he was like it's like an opioids thing and i was like oh interesting because I like you could feel it.

58:39You could feel that this person was just doing the thing that they do. And as opposed to like being enjoying that they were up there. Yeah. We played a show in Alaska. I was just talking about this with a friend and it was one of the best shows of the whole summer. This is a few weeks ago and total surprise. We'd never been to Alaska. Ticket sales were great. It was sort of like this is going so well. And then the crowd, I mean, jumping up and down singing you know just picture scenes right just like it went so well and got to talking with people and it's exactly that right it's that like they're starved of people coming there yeah and so when they get the chance they just approach it with this joy of like it's doesn't you know there's something that happens i think because at least in music it's so saturated yeah there's so many artists spotify has done an amazing thing to like make the pool really wide but very shallow maybe yeah and i think what ends up happening is if you have amazing band on friday amazing on saturday in your city then maybe you go there with this um in my opinion like really shitty attitude that doesn't exist in some of the other places where you're standing there and you're like you're you're genuinely listening to the music and ranking it yeah like you're ranking it against other artists or something like that as if that like there's only one outcome there in which you're gonna have fun right when you're like this is the best like have you seen videos of some of those heavy metal bands that played behind the iron curtain in the late 80s sometimes early 90s no where there's it's like were there really 500 000 metallica fans in moscow or were these music fans 100 like it's insane the performance is insane because they're just like literally anyone doing the act of music that's a form of free expression not from our you know and it's just insane like the performances are insane the videos you're like who are these people yeah but that to me so the same type of type of thing but but a little different is that like i saw a video a long time ago i think it was i think it was like imagine dragons who like are a big band here but there's like a you know like is it cool enough who cares they're like the nickelback of our time sure in terms of the unfair place they hold in popular 100 and i think super unfair because for me it's like if you don't like music then like just keep it moving yeah you know it's like it's not like you don't i know when like people of course i'm not saying you can't like have a discourse where you're like i think this is bad like yeah i think that's a fun discourse i'm not like even like shitting on that but i think the reality is is that like if you buy tickets to this concert yeah the the thing that you like that you must do is have fun yeah like don't block yourself from being able to like achieve the the best possible night and when you see like them in brazil it's like i don't know i mean like the beatles or something people like it's like people are like just losing their minds yeah and i think the point is is like don't fake that of course like don't go there and like lose your mind but but but at least put yourself in a position where you're like i'm going to go to concert and i'm gonna have a lot of fun and to be fair i think a lot of people do this and i think people do this at our concerts which is why i think i love our fan base but you see it in varying degrees in different places right so there's a skate park down the street and i was walking by the other day and uh these kids were listening to like puddle of mud like young kids and my first instinct was like that's like not a cool band because they were not a cool band when i was a kid sure and then i was like oh they're just able to enjoy them as a band yeah Like to them, they're what heavy metal was to me when I was a kid, which is like 20, it's 20 years old.

1:02:23And it just is like, you either like it or you don't, but you have, you're not, it's not of the moment. So you're not judging. The critical opinion is not important. Like sales are not important. It's just, it's just, are you vibing with the song or not? And there is a freedom to that, that I think foreign audiences get to enjoy, which is why there'll be bands that are not big here. and then you'll like follow them on Instagram or whatever. And yeah, they're touring some stadium in Mumbai or something. And it's the audience doesn't get as much music. And then also the audience just either likes it or doesn't like it.

1:02:56They're not like, could you invite a girl to this show or not? You know, like it's just, this is a good concert. Yes or no. Yeah. But even I think like one step further of like, it would be hard. I think in that, what I've seen from like, you know, picture this Brazilian audience or the Alaskan audience for us, like there's not much we could have done to not make that crowd have that reaction yeah they were going there to do that yeah like that's and i guess what i'm saying is that i think there have been eras in that are revered in american music history and and globally where that was just the attitude right like i mean me i was great as elvis or was it just like people liked music and they were just like otherwise you were sitting on the floor like listening to a radio like like this guy's crazy you know what i mean like i think you know it's always relative to what's available in your town and what's possible.

1:03:44But yeah, I mean, to the whole like Nickelback and stuff thing, Puddle and Mudder, whatever. One thing that I think happens and it's like you see this politically, too, where it's like people really get it like gets in their crawl if something that they don't like is wildly popular. I mean, I feel this, of course, but I think half the country feels one way, half the country is other way where it's like, how can that be popular? Like, how can that be popular right and i think that ultimately it's that you have to just accept and once you do once you accept that like i mean maybe not so much politically but art is different than politics because it has no moral consequence hurting anyone yeah it's not hurting anyone and i think that's another piece to it where it's like i watched a little bit of the netflix has a nickelback um like they made it oh sure um but you know it's like but it's their retelling and they talk a lot about this like what it was like to be to be really hated the most loved and hated band in the world and it's it's crazy it's really it's i think it's worth watching like to see their perspective of like you know people like shouting at them from their cars like you suck and stuff like that and like you know or whatever yeah and have you heard that expression don't yuck someone else's yeah yeah i think that's it like as you get older if that's not where you're going you're going in the wrong direction as a kid you're trying to define yourself and figure out the world and you have a lot of strong opinions.

1:05:05If you feel that way when you're 17, I'm not going to follow you. But if you're still posting on message boards about shit you hate when you're out of your 20s, something is going wrong in your life and your priorities. You should be... Now, I'm actually interested in things that I don't like that are popular because I want to know why. Like, what are they doing right? What have they figured out? Who is this audience that's being underserved? You should be thinking about it more from a place of curiosity than judgment. A hundred percent. It's also like, it's fun to listen to these songs and know now with the context.

1:05:46Like, I think for me, it's come all the way back around. I held similar beliefs. Like, I definitely was swayed in the like, this is terrible. But now I think about it, I'm like, as a songwriter i know that there's this thing and i know i think like hooks hooks hooks hooks hooks you know it's like uh you're talking about max martin i know he's talked a lot about that it's like at the end of the day you know unless you're making wildly improvisational avant-garde jazz and even then maybe like at the core of the thing the reason you think nirvana is the coolest band is probably more circumstantial than it is like musical like there are there are things in Western music is like relatively simple in terms of the formula of like, there's only so many notes.

1:06:27And there's really only so many notes that like work pleasingly together. You're getting a lot of like derivative chord structure and melody structure to the point where what's working for Nickelback has worked for a lot of people that you love. You don't like the way it's being delivered or whatever. That's fine. Or the sort of maybe the lyrics or something, which is maybe all fair. but like ultimately when you're able to like you said to just step back and be like it's a banger it's probably more similar to something you like than you would you would want to admit you just don't you just can't see it because the context 100 and and that's context is very important right so it's like it's okay it's probably an oversimplification but i think the reality is is like when time passes and the context changes you're i'm really able to see like i mean the proof is like and i've heard even that like spotify is putting more emphasis on this this might be disinformation but someone told me this like those guys speaking of Nickelback and so many of these bands that I think you could think of went out and sold out arenas all over the world yeah like the sample size is to a point where it's like people like this yeah yeah you're wrong it that's it's like the humility of going like if I don't like it everyone else does chances are I'm the one that's wrong like purely numerically chances are sometimes yeah like sometimes you're the one who knew Kanye West was a piece of shit before everyone else, or R.

1:07:49Kelly was a piece of shit before everyone else. There's those things. But yeah, chances are if millions and millions of people like it, there's something good about it. And you're just being conceited or annoying or contrarian, and you should find what you do like about it. Or just, again, pretend it doesn't exist because there's lots of other stuff you can be into. Yeah, 100%. I think about, you know, ultimately those people are selling out arenas all over the world and the sort of media around it is like this is bad there's really no other maybe there's another art form i'm not thinking of but like i always relate music to sports in that way where it's like it's kind of unfortunate because actually where i think music press and really happened in like i call like the pitchfork era so to speak it took this maybe maybe it's always been this way but at least that's my coming of age around that sort of journalism.

1:08:43But like it worked hard to work against what was actually happening and working oftentimes, you know, to say that it would like completely ignore acts like that to write about things, which I think in some ways is really cool and important to be like, hey, actually, this is what's cool. Even though they're playing in this really small room and they've been completely incapable of getting people to like this on any mass scale at any time, like this is actually much cooler and people should like this, which like just because lots of people like something doesn't mean that another thing that isn't as like isn't valuable but i think ultimately when that's all that you do when that's like the machine is just basically being like oh that thing's stupid because that's counter-programming yeah and there's so much of that in music that i think you know and some of it's important i really do believe that but i think it basically says that like there's certain types of music that make it to that point you know like picturing like bonniver or something like that where it's like he transcended that he was both pitchfork and arena yeah you know what i mean like he he was and still is an incredible artist but there's very few examples of things like that that have like made it as far as he's made it both being critically acclaimed in the sort of like coolest of like beanie wearing circle and also like my mom like skinny you know older generations and people who are sort of like unaffected by that sort of media yeah also like that music i think it's super rare but it doesn't take away from you know like our i don't know like our friend noah khan is having this like explosion and it's changing because he's becoming this like you know culturally just mad star right but there was this period of time where like i felt like i because i've seen it a little bit with us and it's like the coverage was sort of like this is happening like no there's a there's like a nastiness to the music press it has to distinguish itself from fandom so it has to shit on certain things.

1:10:36And then it has to show that it has taste by liking obscure things. In publishing, it's the same thing. The books that get reviewed in the New York Times are almost never the books on the New York Times list. And that's very deliberate. They're talking about the important books, but the books that people are buying are not those books. It's silly to me because I think what sports has done really well is they do the opposite. And they believe they're supposed to make a product that people enjoy they cover the best teams yes yeah like if your team is like or the worst which is also equally interesting but the middle gets no coverage right because you know just the sort of like team that's not making the playoffs where they've won like six games and like they don't put that game of monday night football yeah they put you know the two best teams they try to they try to cover the best stories are the most successful teams the most a great play is the most watched thing granted it's not like one-to-one here but like no no you're right i think therefore they have this really robust media environment because they're actually serving the the mass of people who are most interested in the thing whereas i do think that music journalism actually shot itself in the foot for like a decade at least and is maybe now just playing catch-up because it was like yeah like well if you only pump up that band that only 200 people care about then the audience for this article is like significantly limited now they had their own the other thing about sports for all the money it's worth remembering that it's about as socialistic as you could get sure it's all about creating parity totally it's all about everything is highly unionized yep uh the profit sharing goes to everyone including the worst people like it's like oh actually when you create this kind of closed ecosystem that's designed to support the people in it and grow the whole thing at the same time you get like you look at where sports was like 20 years ago now 50 years ago now just like everything is better in every way uh people do things that were physically impossible not that long ago because the whole system is about yeah yeah and everything works in lockstep to make the thing bigger all the time from the media the media is like you know they're so good to the media the coach is available like sometimes now you've got like basketball guys like it's like the ball's being dribbled past them they're like what did you think of that play it's like i don't know yeah they're all supporting the product which is the experience of the fans we talk about that in terms of like how funny it would be if like you play a show and like because their lives are so crazy it's like you play a show and it's like you know big show in austin texas and you walk off stage and then you go into this little room there's a light on you they're like what was that chord in the uh the third song there it sounded like you might have played a bad chord yeah if you were covered in real time what would that look like you're like yeah i just didn't drink enough coffee today uh you know whatever there's just not any artists big enough i mean taylor swift's the only one you can do that There's a few.

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